Rifts to TMNT

[keir451]

I'm soliciting opinions on how best to do a crossover from Rifts to TMNT. My concept revolves around the 2003 TMNT remake series where a merc company of mine, The Wolf Pack, that is comprised entirely of ex-CS Dog Pack soldiers and Wolfen.
Should I change the values of the Rifts gear to SDC or upgrade TMNT gear to MDC? I was thinking they could operate out of one of the abandoned Federation secret bases or, since they all live on a farm in the Rifts West have them located out in the country side, say somewhere near Casey's farm.
Thoughts, suggestions and ideas are welcome!

[Nightmask]

The most logical route would be for the gear to remain mega-damage, in which case going that route you should probably have it phased out over time and enforce a strict 'can't be repaired' restriction due to the tech simply being too advanced to repair until they're using local SDC equipment. TMNT otherwise really isn't an MDC-grade setting and you'd start having some far-reaching consquences upgrading some or a lot of tech to MD levels, complicating things in the long run.

So they end up having go ration their gear, break out the 'good stuff' for really tough situations and settle for local gear to extend the life of what they've got and know they can't replace.

[keir451]

The most logical route would be for the gear to remain mega-damage, in which case going that route you should probably have it phased out over time and enforce a strict 'can't be repaired' restriction due to the tech simply being too advanced to repair until they're using local SDC equipment. TMNT otherwise really isn't an MDC-grade setting and you'd start having some far-reaching consquences upgrading some or a lot of tech to MD levels, complicating things in the long run.

So they end up having to ration their gear, break out the 'good stuff' for really tough situations and settle for local gear to extend the life of what they've got and know they can't replace.

Thanks Nightmask! That's honestly a route I hadn't thought of. Any other thoughts on where they should wind up or a good point during the story to bring them in? I was thinking maybe few months before the Triceraton Invasion?
Some of the alien tech or the stuff produced by the series' Baxter Stockman could possibly be coopted for their use in replacing their normal gear. Probably the only thing I'd allow to be repaired would be their armor, but only after some extensive research. Their level of psionics would make them a real asset vs say, The Terror Bears or even against the few mystical opponents that crop up in the series.

@ Rappanui; Good ideas! That would allow them to be "better than average" w/out tipping the balance too far in their favor.
How do you guys think they might affect the balance of powers? The Wolf pack is a military force that 's used to fighting things that make Shredder and the Triceratons look like chump change. Any ideas for "media alerts", say like "Wolfman sighted in Central Park", etc.?

[keir451]

if you're using Utrom Shredder, those hound don't stand a chance. he's basically a full conversion borg except that he's being controlled by a belly mounted utrom. as for Media alerts: What kind of TMNT are we talking about ? Nickelodeon? Original wacky? early 2000s? Late 90s? (Dimension X Invaders).

you should first work up the Existing Foes ...

I'm following the 2000's TV show as far as rough story line a bit of the original comics thrown in as well. Utrom Shredder would be a challenge initially, the difference here (I think) would be the level of tactics employed. The Wolf Pack is more willing to go on the offensive than the Turtles seem to be at times as their approach is from a militaristic point of view than the Turtles is. I do have VU as well as Au so I've got a good list of potential Existing Foes to choose from (now if I can only find the time! ).

[keir451]

Thanks again guys, those have been some very helpful suggestions! I'll probably do the straight SDC to MDC conversion and make the Rifts weapons difficult to repair due to difference in technologies, etc.

[Nightmask]

It is far easier to run the game in the M.D.C. Rifts world.... a straight conversion. Simple.
Transferring down to S.D.C. needs A.R. and many creatures need H.P. and S.D.C. separated to work well.

Keep it M.D.C.

Except he's having them end up in the TMNT world, which is definitely SDC, and from the sounds of it all the PC are SDC/HP creatures themselves and only some of their gear is mega-damage rated.

Since I don't think MDC stuff should inexplicably become SDC transferring like that then you end up with people with MDC stuff in an SDC setting, much like Robotech (or at least the original books, haven't seen the new run to compare). So the characters end up attracting all sorts of attention from people wanting the super-gear that they have (you can easily break into a bank or slice up a tank with a simple laser pistol from Rifts) or out to kill them because they're such a threat, or both.

[Nightmask]

MDC in a SDC world : might as well claim game over. any enemy they meet while They have ammo is vaporized. So is your plot.
I hope you don't have any npcs you plan to keep around, with MDC weapons and gear , those guys are TOAST.


This is why the SDC ratio Fixes it, and Natural armor rating is superior to MDC anyway.

You're ascribing way more invincibility to MDC than it actually has. There are SDC weapons that can deal enough damage to harm MDC items, there are ways for SDC characters to hamper people in MDC armor and with MDC weapons, they can't remain in them 24/7 and have to come out at some point.

Yes, it's powerful, yes it takes work, but no it's not game over. They're a small group and if they ran around stupidly acting like no one could take them they WOULD attract people with weapons powerful enough to eventually kill them, at the very least they'd be taking irreparable damage to their armor and using up finite supplies that can't be replaced and end up in big trouble once it was all used up.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

MDC in a SDC world : might as well claim game over. any enemy they meet while They have ammo is vaporized. So is your plot.
I hope you don't have any npcs you plan to keep around, with MDC weapons and gear , those guys are TOAST.


This is why the SDC ratio Fixes it, and Natural armor rating is superior to MDC anyway.

You're ascribing way more invincibility to MDC than it actually has. There are SDC weapons that can deal enough damage to harm MDC items, there are ways for SDC characters to hamper people in MDC armor and with MDC weapons, they can't remain in them 24/7 and have to come out at some point.

Yes, it's powerful, yes it takes work, but no it's not game over. They're a small group and if they ran around stupidly acting like no one could take them they WOULD attract people with weapons powerful enough to eventually kill them, at the very least they'd be taking irreparable damage to their armor and using up finite supplies that can't be replaced and end up in big trouble once it was all used up.

How? How is it not game over? The wolf pack (if they have MD) armor is completely invincible under the idea of keeping MD-MD. Nothing that comes at them will hit them (short of a ship mounted artillery piece or other heavy military ordinance). Their MD weapons will vaporize everything between the end of the barrel and maximum effective range.

I'll freely and openly admit I'm not a rifts player, but I do have access to all the information available with the exception of the newest material. If my memory serves me correctly the books say that SDC weapons DO NOT damage MDC items. The only exception would be an sdc weapon that deals out 100+ damage minimum (which equates to 1MD). Otherwise it doesn't even nick it. Remember the example of trying to take down a tank with a regular hammer (I believe that's right).

Personally I vote for the md to sdc conversion listed earlier. It makes the wolf pack a ...I can't think of a good descriptive term. Your restriction should also be added, handicapping them with the inability to repair their gear. Sure they can soak up the damage, but they'd better be smart about it, because once it's broken it stays broken.

[keir451]

Nightmask is right, MDC tech isn't as all powerful as it may seem and they will be a small group, tho' bigger in numbers than the TMNT.
One of my thoughts was to upgrade Triceraton and other alien gear to Rifts equivalent, as for the Wolf Pack I'd already figured that most of their enemies would be on the same scale as them. The Wolf Pack is not interested in robbing banks or being criminals in general, tho', much like the Turtles themselves, they may be misunderstood and targeted by certain forces, and not every scenario I come up with will require/allow the use of MD gear and weapons. As a Mercenary company they do have an over all leader who will assign missions and equipment as needed (much like in the RT adventures).
Even in Rifts many of the actual non-PCs and average people are mostly SDC. Another part of my thought is that this world is in the early stages of becoming Chaos Earth before the apocalypse. MD tech and all the stuff we take for granted in Rifts begins here, it may even be that the PCs are inadvertantly responsible for the creation of MD tech and NEMA.
So if MD tech cannot be readily had then the PCs will need to husband their resources and minimize their presence as much as reasonably possible. I'll make this a little easier by not placing them in downtown NYC, but instead in the country side of upstate NY so they're not directly interacting with the average joe. As I said earlier, I can limit the types of engagements to suit the theme of the game, with the Tiriceraton invasion perhaps being an opportunity for them to go all out in their local area. I can also have other demons besides the "original" Shredder of the 2000's TV series crop up that may require them to focus more on their psionics and anti-demon & monster training. This way I can most likely keep them from just rolling over every situation I throw at them.

[Nightmask]

If you're melding TMNT with the BtS setting to set the stage for it becoming Chaos Earth then there would be supernatural creatures hidden away all over the place, particularly things like werewolves, some dragons, and even some BtS magic users. If so then they may encounter Victor Lazlo (depending on when he disappeared from Earth), his Chian Ki friend, or the Forgotten One (I believe that's her placeheader title in Rifts: Mercenaries) since they all existed in that time period.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Here is a simple solution from my GM. Don't port rifts pc's to TMNT. Roll up a pack of mutant dogs/wolves and there you go. if you WANT dogboys, pack on some free psionics.
now you don't have to worry about gear conversion as you can just stat them out with sdc gear.

We currently use ATB2 in TMNT (the pc's are steam rollers and nothing much stands in their way) and are in the process of porting a Mariner and Sailor OCC from Pf2e in to ATB2. So yeah, swapping things from one system to another gets kinda hinky. I love PB but it's not as "megaversal" as I'd like to believe.

[Nightmask]

Here is a simple solution from my GM. Don't port rifts pc's to TMNT. Roll up a pack of mutant dogs/wolves and there you go. if you WANT dogboys, pack on some free psionics.
now you don't have to worry about gear conversion as you can just stat them out with sdc gear.

We currently use ATB2 in TMNT (the pc's are steam rollers and nothing much stands in their way) and are in the process of porting a Mariner and Sailor OCC from Pf2e in to ATB2. So yeah, swapping things from one system to another gets kinda hinky. I love PB but it's not as "megaversal" as I'd like to believe.

The issue with that ought to be self-evident, the players are denied the characters they've worked on and left with substitutes that being local don't have the same feeling or allow them to carry off the same kind of stuff they wanted to. Might as well go the 'Nightbane' route, where somehow there's a barrier surrounding the entire universe that causes all non-organics to mysteriously disintegrate that enter from outside said universe.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

The issue with that ought to be self-evident, the players are denied the characters they've worked on and left with substitutes that being local don't have the same feeling or allow them to carry off the same kind of stuff they wanted to. Might as well go the 'Nightbane' route, where somehow there's a barrier surrounding the entire universe that causes all non-organics to mysteriously disintegrate that enter from outside said universe.

It was just a suggestion, not a final word answer. If he wants dogboys and wolfen in his game no problem. The issue is with the MD armor and gear and how to keep the PC's from being nigh unstoppable. I don't think you addressed this with your keep MD as MD suggestion. Loss of ammo is really the only problem these guys would face. Yes, they need to remove their armor to bathe, toilet, and scratch for fleas. But as long as they remain geared up, what do they have to fear from an SDC opponent? NBC warfare and full on artillery strikes aren't something the average npc opponent will have handy.

GM: The hostages are surrounded by 5 guards with AK-47's with full clips. All of your equipment is out of charges. What are you going to do?
Rover the DogBoy: I'm gonna stroll right in and smack the guards around.
GM: Are you crazy? They'll unload on you with everything they have. You'll be Swiss cheese!
Rover the Dogboy: Hahahaha! I'm wearing Light MD armor (30 MD RUE pg 148). Ak-47's are only SD weapons that do a max of 4D6/round and that's SDC. If they full clip burst me it'd only come out to 240 sdc, (TMNTr page 67,69) and that is only IF they roll MAX on all their die. I'll walk out of there with hardly a smudge on my armor's snazzy paint scheme because no single round hits hard enough to damage my armor. Bow before your new master you soft pink meat sacks!

That's the problem with having MD armor in an ALL sdc game. As long as the MD stays MD they're practically unstoppable.

[Nightmask]

The issue with that ought to be self-evident, the players are denied the characters they've worked on and left with substitutes that being local don't have the same feeling or allow them to carry off the same kind of stuff they wanted to. Might as well go the 'Nightbane' route, where somehow there's a barrier surrounding the entire universe that causes all non-organics to mysteriously disintegrate that enter from outside said universe.

It was just a suggestion, not a final word answer. If he wants dogboys and wolfen in his game no problem. The issue is with the MD armor and gear and how to keep the PC's from being nigh unstoppable. I don't think you addressed this with your keep MD as MD suggestion. Loss of ammo is really the only problem these guys would face. Yes, they need to remove their armor to bathe, toilet, and scratch for fleas. But as long as they remain geared up, what do they have to fear from an SDC opponent? NBC warfare and full on artillery strikes aren't something the average npc opponent will have handy.

GM: The hostages are surrounded by 5 guards with AK-47's with full clips. All of your equipment is out of charges. What are you going to do?
Rover the DogBoy: I'm gonna stroll right in and smack the guards around.
GM: Are you crazy? They'll unload on you with everything they have. You'll be Swiss cheese!
Rover the Dogboy: Hahahaha! I'm wearing Light MD armor (30 MD RUE pg 148). Ak-47's are only SD weapons that do a max of 4D6/round and that's SDC. If they full clip burst me it'd only come out to 240 sdc, (TMNTr page 67,69) and that is only IF they roll MAX on all their die. I'll walk out of there with hardly a smudge on my armor's snazzy paint scheme because no single round hits hard enough to damage my armor. Bow before your new master you soft pink meat sacks!

That's the problem with having MD armor in an ALL sdc game. As long as the MD stays MD they're practically unstoppable.

I never can understand why people keep insisting on that fallacy. It seems like they always go 'Well X can't be hurt so he can't be stopped' which is just wrong. Heck Juggernaut's literally unstoppable once he gets going and invulnerable AND superstrong yet he still gets stopped. A character with the Invulnerability super-power is basically an MDC person in an SDC setting yet again they can certainly be stopped and defeated.

Light MDC armor: stuck relying on his normal PS. Heavy cargo net, he's stopped. Fall into a pit trap, he's stopped. Drop a building on him, he gets to die from dehydration unless someone digs him out in time. Drop him into concrete (as Spider-man once did to Juggernaut) and he gets to die immobile in darkness. Power armor isn't much better, built-in weapon systems can't do much if you can't point them at what's restraining you or manage to hit something that'll cause what's restraining you to break.

Really, all you get from having an 'I'm MDC so I'm UNSTOPPABLE!' mindset is a whole lot of unjustified ego and a soon to come to fruition comeuppance as you find out how utterly stoppable you actually are.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Touche`

You make a fine point and one I was obviously over looking.
I tip my hat to you sir.

[Nightmask]

Touche`

You make a fine point and one I was obviously over looking.
I tip my hat to you sir.

My apologies if I sounded a bit testy, that's a minor point of annoyance I see too often particularly on a super-hero RPG forum I also frequent. A few members are absolutely obsessed with the idea that the only way to defeat someone is to beat them into submission so if you can't injure them to them it means they can't be stopped and no matter how much you point up the flaws in that they keep insisting that such a character is 'unstoppable', either by not even acknowledging how they can be stopped in non-damaging ways or just insisting that 'well the way you're supposed to stop opponents is by beating them unconscious'. They also throw around 'munchkin' alot even when it seems like they're the ones either being munchkin or accusing everyone of it no matter how riddled with holes their argument is.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

yeah I'm guilty by conditioning that opponents need to be "beaten". There are probably other methods of problem solving. I'm just not used to them.

[keir451]

Nate, yeah I'm also of the "beat them into the ground" school, but then again I've also had GM's who've forced me to "rethink" my strategies.
Nightmask, I kinda plan on having the occaisional SN horror pop up, the Turtles dealt with their share at times during the series, there was an aline intelligence in the early seasons that had the possibility of being a "recurring villain" and Tengu Shredder can't be the only demonic "bad guy" in the world. I could even transfer some of the Rifts China & Japan demons if I want to do a more Asian feel, I think meeting Victor Lazlo or the others could be interesting especially if the PC's back story included meeting them in the future.

Initially I want them to be involved with the Triceratons and Federat(ion), and only periphally involved with the Utrom Shredder as I see that one as being much more of the Turtles domain, later they could be of help when battling the Tengu Shredder. From there I plan to skip the whole TV "Fast Forward" arc. 2105? Yah, we're well into the Chaos Earth time period by then, but if they're still around by 2098 (hey, time/dimensional travel anyone?) they can become a great force for fighting the demon invasion and maybe even prevent the whole "Madhaven" issue (not very fond of that book).

[keir451]

@ Rappanui; The funny thing about that is the TV series shows the Turtles weapons often cleaving throught things like guns, armor, chains, etc. Now admittedly it was most likely done for dramatic effect but it gives the impression that the Turtles weapons were stronger than most materials. So MD vibro blades won't "seem" out of place, as for MD pistols, as I said I'm going to upgrade the alien tech to MD as it makes more sense. We see, in the 2003 TV series, Triceraton weapons destroying US military gear in one shot and even cutting deep into the earth around cities such as NY and Beijing to effectively core out a section of the planet several kilometers deep. Even when the US military was trying to breach the Utrom defenses at the TCRI building it took the equivalent of near MD weapons (and the handy sabotage of Baxter Stockman) to breach their defenses. So I just consider that stuff MD to make it easier.
As for the "average person", well that's no different than Rifts, not every person can afford MD gear and not every town has an MD safe or MD buildings.
I also apply a different set of game physics, a laser pistol or rifle is a precision weapon so while it will burn thru rock & most buiding materials, it does so in a straight line and doesn't make a big pit. Again the real thing is the "class" of enemies that they will face will be equivalent, the Triceratons & Federat troops will have MD weapons and gear, Agent Bishop will also have MD weapons and gear (stolen and modified alien tech after all), after the Triceraton invasion there will be street gangs who've gotten there hands on Triceraton gear thus making THEM more of a threat to the civilian populace. If "superelephant throws a robot at you" I EXPECT you to actually dodge said robot as even if you shoot it w/your MD laser pistol the REST of the robot WILL hit you and knock you down and casue minor bruising or maybe even a light concussion or broken limb (the armor is good but it's not perfect) depending upon the scenario conditions, it won't protect you froma broken neck if you fall on your head from a great height or soemone like Leatherhead decides to spin your head 180 degrees.

[Nightmask]

Forget the Armor scenario. With a MD Pistol or Vibro sword, they can Cleave or vaporize their way out of anything.
" Superelephant throws a Robot at you. " " i Cleave it with my vibro sword.... doing .. 700 SDC)... That's more then the robot's SDC, it 's shred in half.. ".
"A whole squad of Empire troops surround you " " I fire my (3d6 MD) Laser Rifle into the ground beneath them, creating a 150ft crater (15Md) for them to barely survive through"
"your stuck underwater and sinking fast " " I 'm FIRING MY LAZAR!!!! (3d6 MD) into the water below vaporizing so much water that the steam blasts me straight out" you vaporize enough cubic water (roughly 1 MD Per ton) that you're shoot out like a rocket"

and then you're left with the local populace feeding them poison berries so that they die. ala Hunger Games.

No, a Vibro-weapon or mega-damage laser pistol is not going to make you capable of cutting your way out of or vaporizing anything making you 'unstoppable'. If you're restrained you aren't going to be able to maneuver that vibro-weapon or pistol to where it can cut you free, if you're buried in rubble (from previous 'I'm Unstoppable!' foolishness) again you can't move and if you still have the pistol in hand all you'll be doing is ensuring you're bathing in super-hot gases or covered in molten slag that will quickly cool and *bam* back to being restrained with no way to get free.

You have limited firing capacity before that pistol needs a new e-clip, leaving you vulnerable. There ARE SDC weapons that can inflict minor MDC as well so even with 120 MDC armor EVERY point of MDC you lose is gone forever. So at best (starting with perfect armor) you can take 120 hits from those weapons and you're dead on the next one. Given the scenario has the character running around like an idiot killing people and blowing stuff up because he's 'unstoppable' they WILL be bringing in the heavy weapons and start pounding the character at range, from ambush, doing their best to pummel and confuse. Really all you get from telling yourself that you're 'unstoppable' because you've got a mega-damage weapon and some mega-damage armor is a nice messy death as everyone around targets you with the heaviest weapons possible (which CAN damage mega-damage targets) until you're just a bloody smear if not reduced to non-organic vapor.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

"your stuck underwater and sinking fast " " I 'm FIRING MY LAZAR!!!! (3d6 MD) into the water below vaporizing so much water that the steam blasts me straight out" you vaporize enough cubic water (roughly 1 MD Per ton) that you're shoot out like a rocket"

Actually I think you'd be quickly steam boiled. The only way you're going to build up pressure to shoot you out of the water is if you're enclosed in something where the only way for the pressure to escape is to shove you out along the path of least resistance. And that's how Guns work kiddies!

[Nightmask]

"your stuck underwater and sinking fast " " I 'm FIRING MY LAZAR!!!! (3d6 MD) into the water below vaporizing so much water that the steam blasts me straight out" you vaporize enough cubic water (roughly 1 MD Per ton) that you're shoot out like a rocket"

Actually I think you'd be quickly steam boiled. The only way you're going to build up pressure to shoot you out of the water is if you're enclosed in something where the only way for the pressure to escape is to shove you out along the path of least resistance. And that's how Guns work kiddies!

At the least they're basically setting off an explosion that starts at the port of their laser (if not in it since water will be inside the laser barrel most likely) and spreads outward, and given setting off a grenade where you are isn't going to safely propel you out of water a laser beam isn't going to do it either.

[Nightmask]

You do realize, that ... Grenades do propel you OUT OF THEE WATER.. and because of MD armor you're going to bounce straight out.

You can core cities and other stuff easy too in SDC Games, those weapons don't need to do alot of damage!

Now I'm not too sure about the triceratons in the 2003 series, as I quit seeing it about the time they got on the temporal platform.
Nothing i saw wielded by troops indicated that it was the death rays of MD weapons. I'm sure their ships are another story.

As for the Laser in water scenario, i'm thinking things like Quicksand, Bottom of a bog, etc, something a PC would Accidentally fall into. a MD laser will Vaporize all the water near by (hell 4 MD points is enough to Vaporize Oh... roughly 400 Cubic feet of water. it gets even more absurd when you reach 1000 SDC worth of water (That's enough water displacement to SINK half of a destroyer.

thanks to MD armor, he's not going to boil alive either.

Just accept it, Rifts works on Different physics. Don't try to Back yourself into a corner.

MDC armor isn't going to make you immune to heat, there's only so much refrigeration systems can do to cool you when they have nowhere to dump the heat. Rifts still has to follow some actual physics, it becomes to unrecognizeable otherwise, and TMNT again still follows things in general as RL physics expects them to.

[Nightmask]

Rifts does not follow physics at all. Suddenly a green blue MD laser can fire into water without vaporizing the tub. it has a reasonable fascimile of it, but it just does not follow physics in the slightest bit.
and please do not argue till your blue in the face. You are pushing a farce upon us all if you planned to do so.

The arguing would be on your end, Rifts has to follow RL physics because you can't have a game without it. Fire burns because it follows RL physics, rocks fall to the ground when dropped from RL physics, and so on. Just because some things don't because they require different physics to support the sci-fi and fantasy aspects of the setting doesn't mean it doesn't follow RL physics in all other cases (to the best of the ability of the writers to include such in any case).

[Nightmask]

again you are pushing a farce. Rifts has a fascimile of physics because super powers, Mega damage, Mega energy, nega energy, anti energy, PPe, ISP, crackens, nanomachines, Witch doctors, All Simultaneous exist.

That does not work within realistic phyiscs.
The way there are so many gi joe rules made for players to survive. Again, Reality vs simulation. Rifts is a simulation, and not one based on deep science or realism. No one who plays Rifts even pretends that it does things realisticly. They just accept it and move on. 4th wall logic is used to attack Rifts because of it.

what you are doing is violating Common sense to argue that ... it's real !

You don't really understand what a farce is it seems, you also don't seem to understand that like any fictional construct it has rules, one of those rules, a very common sense rule you don't seem to be aware of, is that except where stated otherwise a fictional construct based on the real world or making some use of the real world is expected to follow the rules and have a history similar to the real world save where the fictional elements intervene. Gravity works there like it does here, because we have a united states including Alaska so does it, and so on.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

So, while these two hash out their respective differing of opinion.

How're those Wolfen/Dog Boys coming along? Have you thought of encounters/interactions with Pre-Crash technology? It allows for all sorts of hilarity if played right. Beings from the super far distant future encounter... a rotary telephone.. A feather duster (oih what horrible instrument of torture is this?!)..the possibilities are endless.

[Nightmask]

again you are pushing a farce. Rifts has a fascimile of physics because super powers, Mega damage, Mega energy, nega energy, anti energy, PPe, ISP, crackens, nanomachines, Witch doctors, All Simultaneous exist.

That does not work within realistic phyiscs.
The way there are so many gi joe rules made for players to survive. Again, Reality vs simulation. Rifts is a simulation, and not one based on deep science or realism. No one who plays Rifts even pretends that it does things realisticly. They just accept it and move on. 4th wall logic is used to attack Rifts because of it.

what you are doing is violating Common sense to argue that ... it's real !

You don't really understand what a farce is it seems, you also don't seem to understand that like any fictional construct it has rules, one of those rules, a very common sense rule you don't seem to be aware of, is that except where stated otherwise a fictional construct based on the real world or making some use of the real world is expected to follow the rules and have a history similar to the real world save where the fictional elements intervene. Gravity works there like it does here, because we have a united states including Alaska so does it, and so on.

Gravity does not work there as it does here, because in palladium stan, Mach 5 lets you reach orbit!( in 24 hours of constant travel).. but they don't say that... not only that but the mere fact that supernatural ps lets people Lift things without proper Density and mass being respected... and the sheer amount of creatures (by the strict by the book ruling) can't move themselves because they can only move 3000lbs ... face it, the game doesn't have internal consistency. if you add it, you are adding it to where there was none.

Just because the writers had some errors (like the Mach 5 miscalculation) doesn't mean gravity doesn't work there as it does here, and again Supernatural PS is covered under the 'elements where fictional rules intervene' nor does the existence of Supernatural PS count as an example of not having internal consistency, it's an example of one of the fictional elements one must accept due to the nature of the setting. Just as one accepts as a foundation that exposure to mutagenic substances will transform normal animals into bipedal sentient beings capable of full human speech and mobility instead of just leading to hideous deformity and/or death.

The existence of these fictional elements doesn't mean that there are no elements from the real world involved, indeed it's a necessary thing for the readers and gamers that they have these realistic elements as basic understood elements in order to relate to the setting, if nothing relates then one cannot properly function within the setting because sometimes 2+2=4 but others it equals 3 and sometimes it equals the square root of -1.

[Armorlord]

TMNT and After the Bomb are not MDC dimensions, so the default would be straight MD to SD. There is an optional suggestion that, if the GM feels the tech in question is functional enough that it might be x2 in SD, x3 for extremely advanced stuff (like Elder Race stuff from the 3G).
If you choose to convert TMNT to an MD-capable universe instead then there will likely already be MD technology possessed by advanced groups- such as the various aliens in the setting, and all magic, superpowers, and psionics would also be MD. So, while it looks like the average people and militaries of Earth will be at a loss, the setting wouldn't be completely helpless.

[Nightmask]

TMNT and After the Bomb are not MDC dimensions, so the default would be straight MD to SD. There is an optional suggestion that, if the GM feels the tech in question is functional enough that it might be x2 in SD, x3 for extremely advanced stuff (like Elder Race stuff from the 3G).
If you choose to convert TMNT to an MD-capable universe instead then there will likely already be MD technology possessed by advanced groups- such as the various aliens in the setting, and all magic, superpowers, and psionics would also be MD. So, while it looks like the average people and militaries of Earth will be at a loss, the setting wouldn't be completely helpless.

The flaw with that position is that mega-damage isn't some magical thing that somehow a dimension has to support it for it to exist, it's simply ultra-advanced technology that deals far greater damage or can take far greater damage compared to other items of similar size and design (generally).

An SDC/HP setting like After the Bomb or TMNT or Heroes Unlimited is an SDC/HP setting simply because they haven't developed mega-damage technology yet, but they often have items of cutting edge design that can approximate it, dealing vast amounts of SDC equating to modest amounts of Mega-damage or being able to soak a modest amount of mega-damage due to having vast amounts of SDC. There's no such thing as a 'non-Mega-damage capable' universe, just universes where it has and those where it hasn't been developed.

[Armorlord]

The flaw with that position is that mega-damage isn't some magical thing that somehow a dimension has to support it for it to exist, it's simply ultra-advanced technology that deals far greater damage or can take far greater damage compared to other items of similar size and design (generally).

An SDC/HP setting like After the Bomb or TMNT or Heroes Unlimited is an SDC/HP setting simply because they haven't developed mega-damage technology yet, but they often have items of cutting edge design that can approximate it, dealing vast amounts of SDC equating to modest amounts of Mega-damage or being able to soak a modest amount of mega-damage due to having vast amounts of SDC. There's no such thing as a 'non-Mega-damage capable' universe, just universes where it has and those where it hasn't been developed.

That is incorrect and is implicitly stated otherwise in the setting materials. MD is a dimensional property that some dimensions support and others do not. It is in fact a different layer of physics that is not present is SD-only universes. MD capable universes support the creation of MD technology, and all magic, superpowers, supernatural, and psionics tap into this additional layer as well, making them MD as well.
MD is in fact a "some magical thing that somehow a dimension has to support it for it to exist" and there are certainly such things as "a 'non-Mega-damage capable' universe", per the books.

Edit: Just to head off the next rebuttal before bed- The Sentinels; Conversion Book 1; Dimension Book 7; and New Generation, as a start. I believe Skyrapers and RUE touches on this turf as well, but I'll double check later.

[Nightmask]

The flaw with that position is that mega-damage isn't some magical thing that somehow a dimension has to support it for it to exist, it's simply ultra-advanced technology that deals far greater damage or can take far greater damage compared to other items of similar size and design (generally).

An SDC/HP setting like After the Bomb or TMNT or Heroes Unlimited is an SDC/HP setting simply because they haven't developed mega-damage technology yet, but they often have items of cutting edge design that can approximate it, dealing vast amounts of SDC equating to modest amounts of Mega-damage or being able to soak a modest amount of mega-damage due to having vast amounts of SDC. There's no such thing as a 'non-Mega-damage capable' universe, just universes where it has and those where it hasn't been developed.

That is incorrect and is implicitly stated otherwise in the setting materials. MD is a dimensional property that some dimensions support and others do not. It is in fact a different layer of physics that is not present is SD-only universes. MD capable universes support the creation of MD technology, and all magic, superpowers, supernatural, and psionics tap into this additional layer as well, making them MD as well.
MD is in fact a "some magical thing that somehow a dimension has to support it for it to exist" and there are certainly such things as "a 'non-Mega-damage capable' universe", per the books.

Edit: Just to head off the next rebuttal before bed- The Sentinels; Conversion Book 1; Dimension Book 7; and New Generation, as a start. I believe Skyrapers and RUE touches on this turf as well, but I'll double check later.

A world capable of supporting mega-damage technology but at present only has SDC level items is indistinguishable from such a 'can't support MDC' setting, except that the idea that a setting can't support MDC is ridiculous. You're never going to shoot your way into a tank with a pistol because it's impervious to that degree of SDC damage, until it is basically MDC damage are you capable of damaging that tank. Same goes with a bank vault, or battle ship. If you don't have weapons classed to be able to harm them (i.e. effectively MDC) then you can't harm them.

Beyond the Supernatural is an SDC setting, it's also the precursor to the Golden Age of Man, Chaos Earth, and Rifts Earth. Clearly it's a mega-damage setting that just happens at that point to only have SDC items available. There is no reason to believe otherwise with regards to TMNT or After the Bomb either, they just haven't developed (and may never for various reasons) mega-damage scale weapons as mega-damage is measured in places like Rifts.

[Armorlord]

A world capable of supporting mega-damage technology but at present only has SDC level items is indistinguishable from such a 'can't support MDC' setting, except that the idea that a setting can't support MDC is ridiculous. You're never going to shoot your way into a tank with a pistol because it's impervious to that degree of SDC damage, until it is basically MDC damage are you capable of damaging that tank. Same goes with a bank vault, or battle ship. If you don't have weapons classed to be able to harm them (i.e. effectively MDC) then you can't harm them.

Beyond the Supernatural is an SDC setting, it's also the precursor to the Golden Age of Man, Chaos Earth, and Rifts Earth. Clearly it's a mega-damage setting that just happens at that point to only have SDC items available. There is no reason to believe otherwise with regards to TMNT or After the Bomb either, they just haven't developed (and may never for various reasons) mega-damage scale weapons as mega-damage is measured in places like Rifts.

Unfortunately, none of that is canon. Even the tank thing, modern tanks are SDC objects with high AR; similar for vaults and battleships. The BtS setting is officially not the precursor to Rifts, nor is HU, elements from both have been drawn into it's history via the Cataclysm. Also, the lack of MD magic/psi/supernatural in BtS (leyline activity hasn't been tied to that for a long time now, btw.)

Besides all that, it is suggested that TMNT/AtB makes use of the inverse Dimensional Energy Matrix, such that no technology from them in most other settings will function and vice-versa.

MD is NOT shorthand for "x100 SD".

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

You're never going to shoot your way into a tank with a pistol because it's impervious to that degree of SDC damage, until it is basically MDC damage are you capable of damaging that tank. Same goes with a bank vault, or battle ship. If you don't have weapons classed to be able to harm them (i.e. effectively MDC) then you can't harm them.

Unfortunately, none of that is canon. Even the tank thing, modern tanks are SDC objects with high AR; similar for vaults and battleships. The BtS setting is officially not the precursor to Rifts, nor is HU, elements from both have been drawn into it's history via the Cataclysm. Also, the lack of MD magic/psi/supernatural in BtS (leyline activity hasn't been tied to that for a long time now, btw.)

Besides all that, it is suggested that TMNT/AtB makes use of the inverse Dimensional Energy Matrix, such that no technology from them in most other settings will function and vice-versa.

MD is NOT shorthand for "x100 SD".

Actually I think the Tank analogy is Canon. I remember reading it somewhere. RMB explanation of MDC perhaps? Thumbs through book...tank tank tank..AHA! Rifts Main Book, Pg 38. Starting in the left column, 5th paragraph. Gives the example of tank (MDC thingy) not being damaged AT ALL by SDC weapons.

"Normal weapons, even when combined, can not I
damage a mega-structure. Only a weapon that inflicts mega-damage .
(M.D.) can harm the tank" RMB pg 38 Right column 1st paragraph 8th line

Nightmask is correct in that respect. All the rest of it (SDC games = Pre CE/Rifts) is baloney though.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I REALLY don't want to see this thread locked due to bickering.

RMB
Page 39

Quick Mega-Damage and M.D.C. Reference Chart
• 1 M.D. Point equals approximately 100 S.D.C. points.[sup]*[/sup]
• 1 M.D. Point equals 100 Hit Points.
• Normal weapons do absolutely no damage to mega-structures
(M.D.C.), even if the combined total damage is over 100 S.D.C[sup]^[/sup].
• Only weapons that do M.D. can damage M.D.C.[sup]*[/sup]

[sup]^[/sup]5 shots that = 100pts of sdc dmg, Will NOT damage an MDC object/being.
[sup]*[/sup] 100+ points of dmg per SINGLE attack. This would = 1md and therefor damage the MDC object/being.


For the love of Pete can we stop arguing about it and get back to helping Keir integrate his Dogboys/Wolfen into the TMNT universe?

[keir451]

@ Amazing Nate; I've been a little busy, my friend's wife just delivered a new baby boy! (They're also my roommates, so I was VERY involved ). You reminded me of the computers April was using, ones with the "old" huge foot and a half deep monitors! To quote Star Trek's Scotty from "The Journey Home", when he encounters 1980's tech "How quaint!".

How do you think they'd react to April O'Neil's "Second Time Around" antique store? Considering they're from nearly 300 years inthe future?

Pack member #1, looking at a record player: "What the *F* is THIS thing? A WHAT? What in the Seven Hells is a RECORD PLAYER?"
Pack Member #2, looking a original NES: "How does this thing work? What you plug in a CARTRIDGE? "

Amazing Nate; Thanks for your support!

ATTENTION READERS: I realize we all have different view points, but STOP bickering over the MDC/SDC issue. I AM converting these characters to TMNT and I AM setting it up as the pre-cursor to Chaos Earth in the long run. I asked for IDEAS not complaints.

[keir451]

I gave my Suggestions. I also suggest converting down their psipowers to HU equivalents if any are not approrpriate, or alternatively need upgrading.

Thanks! I went back to my old RMB and double checked their psi-powers, they're not really overpowering at all; Sense Psychic & Magic Energy constant and automatic Range: 50 ft. Sense Supernatural beings 100 ft. (when not using it's powers), when SN powers are being used it jumos to 1000ft. Considered Mast Psionicists 10 or better to save, gets psi-Sensitive powers of Sense Evil, Sense Magic, Sixth Sense, and Empathy (receive only) plus one Sensitive of choice. Physical Bonuses: +20 SDC, +2 initiative, +1 Strike, parry, dodge, +1d4 to P.S., +2d6 to Spd, Bite attack inflicts 1d6 SDC.
Outside of their CS armor they're not excessively tough nor overpowering, though the "Alpha Core" or Just "Alphas", as they're called by the rest of the Wolf Pack (the core leaders of the Wolf Pack) are something else entirely. One is an ex-assassin, another an ex-pirate, yet another has Sn P.S., yet another is Wolfen Quatoria and one is a Gene Splicer escapee who's a Mind Melter. Luckily, they're ALL NPCs at this point so they don't do much, everyone else is just regular Dog PAck or Wolfen trained as Dog Pack.
So I'll keep their powers as they are, especialy as that way they fit better in the game.

[Armorlord]

Actually I think the Tank analogy is Canon. I remember reading it somewhere. RMB explanation of MDC perhaps? Thumbs through book...tank tank tank..AHA! Rifts Main Book, Pg 38. Starting in the left column, 5th paragraph. Gives the example of tank (MDC thingy) not being damaged AT ALL by SDC weapons.

Oh they used the tank example in the original Robotech and reprinted it for the RMB, it's just that the actual rules and stats for modern tanks have nothing in common with that visualization example. Tanks and such at our tech level, even in Rifts, are stated as SDC items.

fortunately, that is not the line that Palladium chose to go with. Read Megaversal sourcebook and you'd see why.
I am pretty sure you haven't gotten this book and like to choke that old line of MDC in sdc world nonsense.

The Megaversal book didn't introduce that, Kevin has said in ever conversion note ever to convert MD items directly to SD in SDC dimensions. All DB7 did was give us the optional rule to double that number.

ATTENTION READERS: I realize we all have different view points, but STOP bickering over the MDC/SDC issue. I AM converting these characters to TMNT and I AM setting it up as the pre-cursor to Chaos Earth in the long run. I asked for IDEAS not complaints.

Let's see, if you are going with a TMNT world transitioning to a Chaos Earth one, as opposed to After the Bomb, you've got a few questions to work through:

1) Do you want the alternate dimension you are creating to have always been MD, or will this be a change in the dimension matrix with the Coming of the Rifts?
In the first case, powers of all sorts are very potent compared to average Earth tech, and highly advanced groups my have discovered the secrets of MD sciences. PC meddling could lead to sudden advances in those fields as well.
In the second, you don't have to worry about supers, PCs, or aliens being vastly more powerful than most everyone else. This is good or bad, depending on the type of impact you'd like them to have.

2) Are the PCs actually from this world's future, a similar one such that they aren't sure, or they are pretty sure it isn't their world? Meddling can have grave consequences for them, they might be concerned about grave consequences, or they might feel that they have a free hand to do whatever here, depending on the causality issues. Also if they are not from the same world you could still play the 'different energy matrix' card and nullify all the tech- emergency measures would be required for the cyborg though (which can be a very strong plot hook).

3) Magic level of the world. I'd presume you'd want to go HU style, keeps the general cost the same. Though as the Rifts characters stay for a prolonged period in this lower threat area, reduce their available ISP and PPE by half. One of the big deals about such Cataclysms was the major boosting to ISP and PPE in people in response.

Generally, I'd keep the differing Energy Matrix option up around TMNT/AtB, as their access to Time-Travel and Cross-Dimensional machines is much more easily accomplished than on the other side of that divide.

[keir451]

Fair questions demand fair answers .
1) MD level; It's not so much that this dimension has always been MD, but that MD tech will wind up being developed in part due to the unintended actions of the PCs as well as normal R&D and, as I'm allowing the alien races such as Triceratons and Utrom to have MD tech, from reverse engineering.
Consider it the second idea, A change in the dimensional matrix.

2) No, the PCs are not from this world's future per se, but this world is similar enough and is heading down a similar track. Not that the PCs know enough of history to know the difference . For them it could very well be their past. I'm setting the tech level at about early 2000 real world levels, but will throw in a few curve balls in later sessions.

3) Magic level; As I'm using the 2000's TMNT show as my basis for this TMNT world magic is present but much like BtS or Palladium it's not at the same level as in Rifts, but it IS slowly on the rise (or why else would it so suddenly overflow like it did in Chaos Earth?). The psionics I thought I'd keep the same as the actual Dog Pack psionics aren't too powerful IMO.

I'll keep the differing Energy Matrix option as a backup just in case, tho'.

[hollowecho]

So after reading all this I'm am reminded of a game I played in with some friends we had built our characters out of tmnt universe we had some how a time distorted and we had ended up in a small town where we needed money to eat so our crew of 4 became bounty hunters . In one of our raids we had found a abandon garage and in it was a wilks pistol ( 1d4 MD) well we forget about it for a game or two and our local water hole gets taken over buy banditos ( we were 13-16 ) so I Being the pistol expert walk up and tell them to surrender or we will open fire. Well I shoot a warning shot off nothing happens so I shoot again the Gm says ok the building collapses and traps the banditos and a couple of towns people also u see a cow ,on fire ,dead, about 100ft behind the old bar. I had forgotten that 1d4 md is like 100-400 sdv and I had done 600sdc in two shots..we never used that gun again it is still hanging up in the old jail/garage we used ...over all I relize that not all games run smooth,but I like the idea of keeping them full power just let them mow threw some baddies to eat up there ammo... I did that, I created "sludgies" they where a toxic waste mutant that was the buy product of the Coalition they all had 1 MDC and they would attack in packs of 3d6 each one took a shot from a MDC weapon to kill.this is just some thing I've encountered hope this helps

[Giant2005]

I'm soliciting opinions on how best to do a crossover from Rifts to TMNT. My concept revolves around the 2003 TMNT remake series where a merc company of mine, The Wolf Pack, that is comprised entirely of ex-CS Dog Pack soldiers and Wolfen.
Should I change the values of the Rifts gear to SDC or upgrade TMNT gear to MDC? I was thinking they could operate out of one of the abandoned Federation secret bases or, since they all live on a farm in the Rifts West have them located out in the country side, say somewhere near Casey's farm.
Thoughts, suggestions and ideas are welcome!

There are two possibilities within canon that could take place.
the firts of which is detailed in the Megaverse Builder. Rifts Earth is considered to have a negative energy matrix but After the Bomb is undefined. If you care at all, you can roll and determine your own truth on the matter., If AtB results in a Positive or Neutral Energy Matrix, the technology from Rifts Earth will simply cease to function while within that dimension and will need replaced.
If the technology from Rifts Earth has a compatible Energy Matrix, then the ruling falls to Rifts Conversion Book 1 (Revised) page 31. Basically Vibro Weapons inflict double their normal damage but as S.D.C., Full size missiles and Fusion Blocks (Does not include mini-missiles or grenades) inflict their normal damage x10 as S.D.C. and all other weapons are converted from M.D.C. to S.D.C. on a 1:1 ratio.

[boxee]

Personally I would run it as SDC, just convert over from MDC to SDC more fun for players and the GM.

[hollowecho]

The Question I always have is AR from MDC verses. Like if I went one for one ( MDC to MDC) on a glitter boy what is its AR

[boxee]

The Question I always have is AR from MDC verses. Like if I went one for one ( MDC to MDC) on a glitter boy what is its AR

AR likely 18, based on the atb setting giant robot armor.

[say652]

I have zero TMNT game knowledge.
I do have a conversiHedgeat works. Md "Tech" weapons bypass AR as in Body Armor doesn't slow iy down, take damage.(I support the 1for1 md to sdc famage conbersion) against a Natural/Robotic AR Rolls a above normal damage rolls below normal damage. Hence the Megadamage tech only is unad by armor rating rule. Armor well your hit kid cause that has sdc= to mdc. Body armor ar14 power armor ar16 and robots ar18. All mdc protection takes half damage from energy. But a md weapon will damage your mdc armor on a successful hit. Dealing normal damage for railguns and half damage for energy.

Hope this helps

[say652]

I have zero TMNT game knowledge.
I do have a conversion that works. Md "Tech" weapons bypass AR as in Body Armor doesn't slow iy down, take damage.(I support the 1for1 md to sdc famage conbersion) against a Natural/Robotic AR Rolls a above normal damage rolls below normal damage. Hence the Megadamage tech only is unad by armor rating rule. Armor well your hit kid cause that has sdc= to mdc. Body armor ar14 power armor ar16 and robots ar18. All mdc protection takes half damage from energy. But a md weapon will damage your mdc armor on a successful hit. Dealing normal damage for railguns and half damage for energy.

Hope this helps

[GrampaAllen]

I use these my Rifts party loves to go slumming and raid low tech dimensions for gear.http://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewto ... 0&t=133583