Zent Ships and their onboard factories

[sirkermittsg]

A close read of the second edition books reveals that the Zentraedi Capital Ships have Automated Repairs Bays and Miniature Robotech Factories onboard.

With minimal supervision, these facilities are capable of recycling damaged mecha and parts into new missles, parts, and zentraedi mecha. Mind you this is in limited quantities. It was designed to make up for combat damage, losses, and munitions use.

We see that the Robotech Factory Satelites caputed by the UEG were modified to build human ships and human mecha. it seems to me that similarly, they would have modified the facilities onboard some of the Zent ships to serve similar functions. So you could see a zent ship used as a carrier that produces Alphas, Betas, and cyclones. You could see a zent ship used by the marines that producs mostly battloids and cyclones.

I am thinking that perhaps on Earth, some of the crashed ships might have had their mini factories repaired and reactivated by industrious individuals to build new human mecha and parts for use in the defense of earth.

[Seto Kaiba]

Stranger things have been done with Zentradi ships by the original creators.

Even if there wasn't a factory like that originally, I would assume that humans would install one once they took over so they would be able to manufacture new equipment in limited quantities without needing a supply base. (e.g. the way many destroids on the SDF-1 were built in the ship's onboard factories using scratch-built and surplus parts.)

[sirkermittsg]

Stranger things have been done with Zentradi ships by the original creators.

Even if there wasn't a factory like that originally, I would assume that humans would install one once they took over so they would be able to manufacture new equipment in limited quantities without needing a supply base. (e.g. the way many destroids on the SDF-1 were built in the ship's onboard factories using scratch-built and surplus parts.)

Err What stranger things?

The way I am looking at things, the factory was all ready there. raw material supply, automated machines....etc. So retooling the factory might be a big project, but I would think it could be done. space is dedicated in the ship all ready and has things like water and electricity all ready provided to the work area....its just a mater of adjusting and setting the equipment properly.

[Seto Kaiba]

Stranger things have been done with Zentradi ships by the original creators.

Err What stranger things?

Oh, y'know... little things like chopping them up and welding the bits together to make an uber-powerful SDF, or having them permanently grounded to use as prefab foundations for multi-tiered city areas, or hollowing them out and making them into a quick and dirty short-range colony ship.

The way I am looking at things, the factory was all ready there. raw material supply, automated machines....etc. So retooling the factory might be a big project, but I would think it could be done. space is dedicated in the ship all ready and has things like water and electricity all ready provided to the work area....its just a mater of adjusting and setting the equipment properly.

It makes a decent amount of sense... particularly if your game's using the Queadol-Magdomilla-class ships, which are configured to operate as landing craft too. You can plunk one right down wherever and use it as a mobile military base or roving factory for post-war reconstruction work.

[glitterboy2098]

Stranger things have been done with Zentradi ships by the original creators.

Err What stranger things?

Oh, y'know... little things like chopping them up and welding the bits together to make an uber-powerful SDF, or having them permanently grounded to use as prefab foundations for multi-tiered city areas, or hollowing them out and making them into a quick and dirty short-range colony ship.

in fairness, that last one is not a bad idea, just a bit wasteful unless its an older beat up ship to start with.

The way I am looking at things, the factory was all ready there. raw material supply, automated machines....etc. So retooling the factory might be a big project, but I would think it could be done. space is dedicated in the ship all ready and has things like water and electricity all ready provided to the work area....its just a mater of adjusting and setting the equipment properly.

It makes a decent amount of sense... particularly if your game's using the Queadol-Magdomilla-class ships, which are configured to operate as landing craft too. You can plunk one right down wherever and use it as a mobile military base or roving factory for post-war reconstruction work.

actually, using a Queadol-Magdomilla, or at least part of one, as a base is an element in one of my efforts to reimagine some of the old RPG's ideas.. in this case a tyrolian survivor group that sets up shop on earth during the invid occupation. they use a reprogrammed minifactory from a Queadol-Magdomilla as a mecha construction center, allowing them to sustain not only their rogue zentraedi allies, but also their Bioroid forces.
i'm still working out the finer details though. i won't put them in south east asia, where i know there is a canon (for the new RPG) group of master's, because i don't want to deal with what i know will probably be covered in the genesis pits book. i'm actually leaning towards somewhere in europe/western asia, since that area is largely ignored in the RPG canon, and lets me build off my EBSIS material, but location is important.

in regards to humans using the factories, i'd imagine that you could at least use the factories to make ammunition, missiles, and bombs for human mecha. i'd imagine reprogramming the factory for those would be fairly simple.
those kinds of factories could easily be one of ways the resistance is able to keep going. just a few bases with minifactories and you could produce enough ammo and other munitions to keep your resistance cells active. the difficult part would be scavenging the right raw materials (IMO, there would be a 'recycler' function, so you'd could use wrecked mecha and weapons as raw materials), and distributing the results without being caught by the invid.
of course, you'd also want to find non-protoculture powerplants. i'd imagine you'd need a decent hydroelectric dam or old nuclear powerplant or something to keep a minifactory base going. firing up a protoculture powerplant would make you a big ass target, but its not like you could just hook up a few gas generators and expect something as complex as an automated factory to run.

speaking of which, is there any indications as to what the secondary and emergency power systems in zentraedi ships are? presumably smaller protoculture generators would be the first backup to the main power system, but i'd imagine that some sort of non-protoculture system would be present, given how Khyron's gunship seemed to have at least basic power despite not having PC.

also, i'm trying to remember if there is any indication that whatever the invid detect from protoculture powerplants can be blocked by buring it underground, and if so how deep you'd have to go. the episode that comes to mind is "Sperate ways", where bernards group is trapped in the old subway tunnel, but i'm not sure if there are other episodes that might provide info.

[Aku-Arkaine]

Well if Earth mecha are too complicated, you could use them to make parts build stingers.

[sirkermittsg]

i'm trying to remember if there is any indication that whatever the invid detect from protoculture powerplants can be blocked by buring it underground, and if so how deep you'd have to go. the episode that comes to mind is "Sperate ways", where bernards group is trapped in the old subway tunnel, but i'm not sure if there are other episodes that might provide info.

Well in the game books it discusses some invid particulatly the stage IV as having up to one mile of protoculture sense. so I would think you would have to have burried you plant some where close to that deep to make sure you are 100% safe.

now if I were going to build a base with a protoculture plant of large size like that, I would make sure there was also a well placed early detection systems including radar and possibly cameras and motion detection systems in place. You dont want a few errant mecha left on giving away your base location. The thing with reflex systems is that you can not just turn them on and off willy nilly like you can a camoflauged mecha. SO your best bet would be to bury the system or only use it when absolutely necessary.

By the way, having a zent ship in close proximity to a large non-protoculture power plant is possible but not hugely likely. there may only be a handfull of locations in the world where this has happened. But alternatively....you could set up a local power grid. you would string wire from the power plant to the ship as much as a hundred miles away. That is a huge undertaking for any group of people.

Another alternative, is you dont have to convert the factory to make human mecha. Instead you can make zent mecha with zent weapons and just build the interior for a crew of humans instead. a reinforced pilots compartment with human controls for the equipment. something like a female power armor with a gunner and a pilot would be even more deadly then one with a pilot only.

[ShadowLogan]

also, i'm trying to remember if there is any indication that whatever the invid detect from protoculture powerplants can be blocked by buring it underground, and if so how deep you'd have to go. the episode that comes to mind is "Sperate ways", where bernards group is trapped in the old subway tunnel, but i'm not sure if there are other episodes that might provide info.

I don't think you'll find specifics in the show (and game mechanics may not consider material blocking) as we really don't know what the PC emissions being detected actually are. In "Separate Ways" they are in the upper level of a subway system and still need to go deeper (per dialogue). The only unit the Invid seem to detect at the end is Lunk's jeep and not the cyclones (and one is in PA mode). Now they could have simply turned off the Cyclones (not sure if Scott would still be able to move at that point) and jeep as they abandon the vehicles to protect themselves from the cave-in giving a misleading result.

How deep do you think the PC Matrix was in the Mounds compared to the subway? (The Masters did determine that the Mounds had the highest reading of proto-activity, and is confirmed to be the Mounds, granted this is comparing a ship board sensor's sensitivity to a one-person mecha's).

You also have the Invid that pop-up out of the ground due to PC powered mecha attacking (though it could be the result of a communique).

What about the Invid "PC Sensor" Rand and Annie blew up inside the Mountain in "The Fortress"? At least that is what they think it is supposed to be, granted they may have blown up a key part and not sensor parts located with a better position (they did have retractable guns, so the sensors could be there with the data processing site being blown up).

Another thing to consider might be water (NG#2). The Invid surface for their POV shot in the Lake City Trap (though there is one on the approach well outside of the City and another in the City) just as Rand/Scott approach the bridge on their Cyclones. That could indicate water blocks the PC sensor if they had to take a cue from another sensor (located internally or external) to surface (then again they might just pop up at regular intervals to scan).

[glitterboy2098]

i've generally assumed the invid are detecting some sort of radiation.
i'll need to rewatch the episodes in question to be sure, but if your right about the way it's presented, the best 'handwave' answer would be they're detecting some sort of quantum particles being produced by PC powerplants. quantum particles can behave pretty oddly when on their own, and while generally can pass through matter with little trouble, can be detected with the right sensors.

i was just curious as to whether the old RPG's trope of "buried" ships being used as bases could have a practical purpose beyond just hiding your base location from human eyes.

[Seto Kaiba]

in fairness, that last one is not a bad idea, just a bit wasteful unless its an older beat up ship to start with.

Well, if you've got a couple thousand perfectly functional ones just sitting around not doing anything and fresh ones being captured all the time, why not?

[Tiree]

in fairness, that last one is not a bad idea, just a bit wasteful unless its an older beat up ship to start with.

Well, if you've got a couple thousand perfectly functional ones just sitting around not doing anything and fresh ones being captured all the time, why not?

Everything you have mentioned, I have used in my games. I pretty much use the Scout Ships as my vessel of choice for Humans to use as a carrier. I use the Zentraedi Carrier's as cargo, colony, and pretty much anything else type of ships.

[green.nova343]

A close read of the second edition books reveals that the Zentraedi Capital Ships have Automated Repairs Bays and Miniature Robotech Factories onboard.

With minimal supervision, these facilities are capable of recycling damaged mecha and parts into new missles, parts, and zentraedi mecha. Mind you this is in limited quantities. It was designed to make up for combat damage, losses, and munitions use.

We see that the Robotech Factory Satelites caputed by the UEG were modified to build human ships and human mecha. it seems to me that similarly, they would have modified the facilities onboard some of the Zent ships to serve similar functions. So you could see a zent ship used as a carrier that produces Alphas, Betas, and cyclones. You could see a zent ship used by the marines that producs mostly battloids and cyclones.

I am thinking that perhaps on Earth, some of the crashed ships might have had their mini factories repaired and reactivated by industrious individuals to build new human mecha and parts for use in the defense of earth.

Tough decision to make. The major big point I would say is against that being done is that, if they could simply retool all of the remaining mini-factories from Breetai's fleet, along with the salvaged ships, they wouldn't have needed to capture the Robotech Factory Satellite during the series. Not to say that there's not some potential there... but maybe not full manufacturing. After all, just because the old Delphi (ex-ACDelco, formerly GM-controlled) plants produced parts for GM cars doesn't mean their factories were capable of assembly work, or even that they would have been easily convertible into full assembly facilities.

Not to say that you can't go with that in your game setting. However, I would recommend that full production be extremely limited. I'd say that even with the heavy automation involved (due to the Zentraedi's lack of skilled labor), you're maybe looking at a production rate of 1 Destroid or Veritech per week tops, maybe more likely 1-2 per month (maximum of 4/month, or 48/year). At that rate, you can maybe field/replace a squadron of Veritechs, or a company of Destroids, every 6-12 months.

On the other hand, spare parts would be a lot more handy. Assuming your players aren't constantly having their mecha shot out from underneath them, being able to provide a forward base facility with a dedicated automated repair/spare parts facility would do wonders for morale, as well as help reduce angry memos from High Command about your spiraling repair expenditures...

[glitterboy2098]

the main reason to capture the factory sattelite isn't to produce mecha, its to produce starships. the minifactories can't make sublight drives or ship hulls or fold drives or anti-gravity generators or heavy particle beam cannons etc. etc. etc.

the minifactories can give a boost to rebuilding earth, but that's pretty much it. they do nothing to help the space side of things. whereas the Factory Sattelite can build starship components and serve as a space dock for building starships.

[Seto Kaiba]

Everything you have mentioned, I have used in my games. I pretty much use the Scout Ships as my vessel of choice for Humans to use as a carrier. I use the Zentraedi Carrier's as cargo, colony, and pretty much anything else type of ships.

Er... only that last one is actually on my list, using the Zentradi ships as human warships isn't exactly unusual since we see that done in the series.

Tough decision to make. The major big point I would say is against that being done is that, if they could simply retool all of the remaining mini-factories from Breetai's fleet, along with the salvaged ships, they wouldn't have needed to capture the Robotech Factory Satellite during the series.

Pretty much, yeah... though that depends on how much of his force survived Ep27. Survey says "not much of it", as only one ship was sent to capture the factory satellite, so the satellite would probably still have been necessary.

Not to say that you can't go with that in your game setting. However, I would recommend that full production be extremely limited. I'd say that even with the heavy automation involved (due to the Zentraedi's lack of skilled labor), you're maybe looking at a production rate of 1 Destroid or Veritech per week tops, maybe more likely 1-2 per month (maximum of 4/month, or 48/year).

Likewise, I'd limit it perhaps even more aggressively than that... perhaps limiting it only to the production of parts and new modular components for mecha after being retooled for human equipment, depending on the complexity of the design (it's easier to make a destroid than a VF) and the availability of materials.

the main reason to capture the factory sattelite isn't to produce mecha, its to produce starships. the minifactories can't make sublight drives or ship hulls or fold drives or anti-gravity generators or heavy particle beam cannons etc. etc. etc.

But the factory satellite they captured doesn't produce ships, it produces mecha... Regults, to be precise.

[glitterboy2098]

in macross yes, but in robotech it produced starships too. otherwise Exedor wouldn't have beleived the factory sat was building super-starships to destroy earth

[sirkermittsg]

The factory sattelite had multpile facilities inside of it. It built both the ships and the mecha for the ships. It also was the location of cloning facilities where the zentraedi where "born".

So the mini factories can build ammo, missles, and mecha parts. thouse parts can be used in the repair bay to repair damaged units or on occasion actually construct a full mecha from scratch. Scratch built mecha would be in limited quantities like a few per week or a few per month depending on type.

works for me.

[green.nova343]

Tough decision to make. The major big point I would say is against that being done is that, if they could simply retool all of the remaining mini-factories from Breetai's fleet, along with the salvaged ships, they wouldn't have needed to capture the Robotech Factory Satellite during the series.

Pretty much, yeah... though that depends on how much of his force survived Ep27. Survey says "not much of it", as only one ship was sent to capture the factory satellite, so the satellite would probably still have been necessary.

Hard to say. I can see justification for it being the only functional ship left, or at least the only 1 left with a functioning fold drive. OTOH, I can also see justification for it being a tactical decision -- i.e. a single ship approaching the satellite, especially after the debacle over Earth, could be seen as merely a ship asking for repairs, or even as being enough of a reduced threat to the onboard personnel than a full flotilla would have been.

Not to say that you can't go with that in your game setting. However, I would recommend that full production be extremely limited. I'd say that even with the heavy automation involved (due to the Zentraedi's lack of skilled labor), you're maybe looking at a production rate of 1 Destroid or Veritech per week tops, maybe more likely 1-2 per month (maximum of 4/month, or 48/year).

Likewise, I'd limit it perhaps even more aggressively than that... perhaps limiting it only to the production of parts and new modular components for mecha after being retooled for human equipment, depending on the complexity of the design (it's easier to make a destroid than a VF) and the availability of materials.

That's what I would shoot for, myself.

[Alpha 11]

You forget one big thing. If used in the Invid timeline, that would most like be a HUGE Protoculture signal to the Invid. So you would have to shield it somehow so you weren't discovered.

[sirkermittsg]

You forget one big thing. If used in the Invid timeline, that would most like be a HUGE Protoculture signal to the Invid. So you would have to shield it somehow so you weren't discovered.

Use of the drive systems on the ship definitely would make the ship a target. but what about using non PC systems to power the mini-factory.... a dam or a nuclear plant for example.... or a solar plant.

[taalismn]

You forget one big thing. If used in the Invid timeline, that would most like be a HUGE Protoculture signal to the Invid. So you would have to shield it somehow so you weren't discovered.

Use of the drive systems on the ship definitely would make the ship a target. but what about using non PC systems to power the mini-factory.... a dam or a nuclear plant for example.... or a solar plant.

Thinking of a Zentradi ship unfurling a MASSIVE solar cell wing...Yah....the Tirolians (or the Terrans) at this time may have developed far more efficient full-absorption solar cells.

[jaymz]

GB - There was also a canon group of Masters and Zentraedi in the old RPG as well in Return of the Masters.....

[mech798]

A close read of the second edition books reveals that the Zentraedi Capital Ships have Automated Repairs Bays and Miniature Robotech Factories onboard.

Quick question-- do you have a page/book cite for this? I'm curious because I seemed to have completely missed that reference.

[mech798]

Found the site-- and it is interesting. One question is how effectively can you miodify the onboard systems to produce other mecha-- could an REF engineer figure out a way to produce Alpha fighter parts? What about Invid equipment?

[ShadowLogan]

They are usually seen in the midst of a collection of smaller fleets operating as a mobile production facility

-this statement is made in the fluff text for the Flagship-class.

6. Ship's Systems of Note:...Other Ship's Systems of Note:...salvage bay, repair bay (basic repairs and reloading of ordnance) and minimal automated production facilities for producing ammunition, ordnance and mecha,...

6. Ship's Systems of Note: Tactical life support and minimal production facilities for producing ammunition and ordnance,...

-these last two are basically the last thing mentioned with regard to the Flagship & Destroyer-class ships.

[keir451]

That's how I had a group of CS soldiers be able to reproduce their tech when they wound up stranded in the RT universe, they co-opted both REF & Zentraedi micro factories and repair facilities from downed starships and retooled them to produce RIFTS equipment.

[jaymz]

So by that, at least as it pertains to the RPG, the Flagship can do repairs to items as well as produce ammunition etc but the other ships can only produce ammunition and ordnance.

[ShadowLogan]

That's how I read it, however that is only two ships out of 6 (Flag, Cmd, Landing, Destroyer, Scout, Monitor), and the case may be different depending on the class. I can see the Command Ship being similar to the flagship (in scope, if not volume) and the Destoryer and Scout being similar to, the Landingship could go either way and have no idea where the Monitor would place.

Still the ammunition/ordnance would be very beneficial if retooled for human mecha.

The one thing not addressed really is where these factories get raw materials from? Do the Zentreadi have custom drones for this task or what?

[jaymz]

My guess would be they could just gather asteroids for the materials. In order to produce anything it would like have to have some minor refining process available. That or the Factory Satellites stick the ships with parts so even the production capability is limited to some degree.

[ArmySGT.]

That's how I read it, however that is only two ships out of 6 (Flag, Cmd, Landing, Destroyer, Scout, Monitor), and the case may be different depending on the class. I can see the Command Ship being similar to the flagship (in scope, if not volume) and the Destoryer and Scout being similar to, the Landingship could go either way and have no idea where the Monitor would place.

Still the ammunition/ordnance would be very beneficial if retooled for human mecha.

The one thing not addressed really is where these factories get raw materials from? Do the Zentreadi have custom drones for this task or what?

The Recovery Pod stands out.

Many asteroids and comets are dirty snowballs built of exotic compounds that can be used to make explosives and propellants. Nitrates can be separated from human/zent wastes again as explosives or propellants. There are nickel iron asteroids in abundance and more with iridium, titanium, platinum, and gold all very useful in manufacture.

Simply turn off the artificial gravity (or maybe it is nullified?) on the salvage deck and insert the asteroid. Fusion furnaces, centrifuges, and magnetic or gravitic forces can be used to blend or separate the material into alloys.

Retooling for human mecha ought to take a great deal of time..... While it is primitive compared to Tyrolian tech you need more than the schematics for an Alpha fighter to build one. You need to build the components and I am talking about the smallest of components such as diodes, resisters, capacitors, silicone wafer microchips. You have to spend the time teaching a Tyrolian computer to make these items and do it in Tyrolian machine/computer code. Then make forms, dies, and tool bits.

So I would stagger out the production capacity over time......... Like year one.... 35mm and 55mm armor piercing (depleted uranium or tungsten) rounds, and propellants. Year three missiles or all types, plus armor. Year four, armor plate for capital ships and mecha. Year six, mecha structural components and large assembly components.

It isn't until year eight or more that I would allow the most sophisticated of mecha components or the assemblies (that require computer controls) to build one be finalized.

[mech798]

Well, much of it depends on how the factories work. My bet is that the factories are multi-purpose, which means a very sophisticated "on the fly" production capability-- today we need lasers, tomorrow the central fold drive motivator burned out and next week, the microwave in the officer's lounge blew up. Even given a very long period of standardization, that requires the ability to retool even to the smallest components.

OTH, these are not likely *mass* production facilities. This isn't something like an RTS game where you flagship spits out squadrons to replace lost squadrons-- if it looses its flight group, it goes back to the factory. Ditto for major damage-- I don't believe we see the hole the SDF made in Breetai's ship during the mission to capture the Factory sattelite, but that was after 2 years and with human help. There m

So likely the main purpose of hte factory is to keep up with regular, not combat damage and expenditures, at leas tnot heavy combat. It's to replace the recon pod that had a bad landing, and to replace missiles' expended in training.

Mind you, very, very impressive in the invid era, but I'd bet, even assuming best case and full materials, you probably couldn't make more than a few hundred mecha from a flagship factory and far fewer from a destroyer factory and that is absolutely best case-- you got all the material, your reacotrs are topped up and you've figured out how to talk to the computers. More likely it's "we can fix what wehave and build a few more every month or so."


As to the ships-- given tha tthe landing ship is already called out as being multi-puprose, I bet that you likely have at least a few mining/repair ships in the fleet with great big factories and refineries-- now those might be able to support a combat fleet, but equally they're rare, and were likely kept in the safest place imaginable-- right next ro or actually inside Dolza's HQ.... which didn't turn out so good.

[Alrik Vas]

That's how I read it, however that is only two ships out of 6 (Flag, Cmd, Landing, Destroyer, Scout, Monitor), and the case may be different depending on the class. I can see the Command Ship being similar to the flagship (in scope, if not volume) and the Destoryer and Scout being similar to, the Landingship could go either way and have no idea where the Monitor would place.

Still the ammunition/ordnance would be very beneficial if retooled for human mecha.

The one thing not addressed really is where these factories get raw materials from? Do the Zentreadi have custom drones for this task or what?

The Recovery Pod stands out.

Many asteroids and comets are dirty snowballs built of exotic compounds that can be used to make explosives and propellants. Nitrates can be separated from human/zent wastes again as explosives or propellants. There are nickel iron asteroids in abundance and more with iridium, titanium, platinum, and gold all very useful in manufacture.

Simply turn off the artificial gravity (or maybe it is nullified?) on the salvage deck and insert the asteroid. Fusion furnaces, centrifuges, and magnetic or gravitic forces can be used to blend or separate the material into alloys.

Retooling for human mecha ought to take a great deal of time..... While it is primitive compared to Tyrolian tech you need more than the schematics for an Alpha fighter to build one. You need to build the components and I am talking about the smallest of components such as diodes, resisters, capacitors, silicone wafer microchips. You have to spend the time teaching a Tyrolian computer to make these items and do it in Tyrolian machine/computer code. Then make forms, dies, and tool bits.

So I would stagger out the production capacity over time......... Like year one.... 35mm and 55mm armor piercing (depleted uranium or tungsten) rounds, and propellants. Year three missiles or all types, plus armor. Year four, armor plate for capital ships and mecha. Year six, mecha structural components and large assembly components.

It isn't until year eight or more that I would allow the most sophisticated of mecha components or the assemblies (that require computer controls) to build one be finalized.

The issue i have with this is you are saying Alphas have advanced technology in them, when we all know they're made of plywood, rocks, hopes and dreams. Now a cyclone, yeah, 8 years minimum.

[ArmySGT.]

The issue i have with this is you are saying Alphas have advanced technology in them, when we all know they're made of plywood, rocks, hopes and dreams. Now a cyclone, yeah, 8 years minimum.

Did I mention I despise the Alpha fighter and its ugly cousin the Beta?

The Alpha on its best day is a short range defensive fighter that doesn't protect as capital ship as much as it supplements the capital ships own anti mecha and anti missile defenses. The Beta makes a poor substitute for the VF-1, it has the speed, however the sensors package is inadequate. The Beta like the Alpha must be vectored onto targets, and can't even take advantage of a long range missiles, long range. Then there is the payload. The sole two long range missiles do little to threaten an opposing capital ship, the eight medium missiles don't deliver enough on a opposing enemy mecha screen to get through to the capital ships. The short range missile pay load is great but, once into the fight with those the pilot is using more short range missiles to counter enemy short range missiles then downing enemy mecha.

And then there is the brilliant tactical bit. If the Beta is lost or damaged, the Alpha can't must enough speed to escape or pursue. Losing two mecha and two pilots.....

I am reminded of the "Crack Suicide Squad" from Monty Python's "The Life of Brian" here.

Now, back to factories. It is not that the new or old Earth mecha have high technology. Compared to the Robotech Masters, the REF certainly does not.. The problem is that it is Earths technology being built by a factory with a different language, machining processes, a different measurement system, in short alien to the Tyrolian technology.

That means you have to go slow. Teach it to make circuit board components before it can make circuit boards.

Then be willing and humble enough to learn from the Tyrolian tech why you have it all wrong based on your primitive science and should do it another way. Thus starting over.

[mech798]

There's also the fact that the factories may be hard coded to *not* make anything else. After all, if I was an up and coming robotech empire, I wouldn't want to make it easy for some lucky fellow to get a ship with a "make anything" box in it. This could be another reason for the robotech factories-- there may be some components that the factory doesn't know how/can't build and has programmed blocks or a lack of tools so that it can't be modified to make it. Some of those you could probably override, but that gets back to knowing the right commands or possibly even making physical modifications. (which might not be impossible-- given the fact that most zentraedi don't know a lot about how things work, it could be as simple as pulling a single circuit board).

[ArmySGT.]

(which might not be impossible-- given the fact that most zentraedi don't know a lot about how things work, it could be as simple as pulling a single circuit board).

The old "reverse the circuit board" trope?

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, much of it depends on how the factories work. My bet is that the factories are multi-purpose, which means a very sophisticated "on the fly" production capability-- today we need lasers, tomorrow the central fold drive motivator burned out and next week, the microwave in the officer's lounge blew up. [...]

If we were aiming for maximum consistency with the existing automated factories from the animation, the onboard factory the RPG asserts is present (but is canonically not) would be a collection of mono-tasked assembly/fabrication areas which are exceptionally difficult to modify to build something other than the one thing they were designed to make. The facility would likely be designed for maximum simplicity, so the Zentradi wouldn't have to tinker with anything to make it work.

The issue i have with this is you are saying Alphas have advanced technology in them, when we all know they're made of plywood, rocks, hopes and dreams. Now a cyclone, yeah, 8 years minimum.

Did I mention I despise the Alpha fighter and its ugly cousin the Beta?

Oh yes, I feel the "love".

Now, back to factories. It is not that the new or old Earth mecha have high technology. Compared to the Robotech Masters, the REF certainly does not. [...]

Per Prelude, humanity is the galaxy's technological slow child... even in 2043 or so, they're lagging behind everyone else. To be fair, losing their homeworld twice probably set them back a bit.

[Tiree]

It could be as simple as one of the repair drones from 1e doing all the work.

[ArmySGT.]

There's also the fact that the factories may be hard coded to *not* make anything else. After all, if I was an up and coming robotech empire, I wouldn't want to make it easy for some lucky fellow to get a ship with a "make anything" box in it. This could be another reason for the robotech factories-- there may be some components that the factory doesn't know how/can't build and has programmed blocks or a lack of tools so that it can't be modified to make it. Some of those you could probably override, but that gets back to knowing the right commands or possibly even making physical modifications. (which might not be impossible-- given the fact that most zentraedi don't know a lot about how things work, it could be as simple as pulling a single circuit board).

I am now picturing a Robotech factory that is run by Nintendo like cartridges. Zent Commander inserts cartridge for Battlepod, types in 200 on the key pad and presses start. Then later needs missiles for the shipboard missile batteries, swaps cartridges, and makes LR missiles.

Only the Commander has the cartridges and probably doesn't have a complete set.

[glitterboy2098]

Or his sciences adviser might have them, since most Zentraedi aren't even interested in technical pursuits.

I really like the idea of a command cartridge setup, but that means that once someone figures out how a cartridge is created, then potentially anything goes, which might go a step farther than these "mini" auto factory are intended for.

anything that lets them actually work, without taking up the entire ship with monotask manufacturing hardware, is going to have that issue.

[mech798]

Or his sciences adviser might have them, since most Zentraedi aren't even interested in technical pursuits.

I really like the idea of a command cartridge setup, but that means that once someone figures out how a cartridge is created, then potentially anything goes, which might go a step farther than these "mini" auto factory are intended for.

Not entirely. If it's a cartridge based sysem then the unit doesn't need ANY of the cad/cam stuff needed to actually tell it how to make something new. So if you want to make something new, you have to figure out what language the computer talks, and how to tell it to do that. Then you have to consider the fact that the computer might actually have hard coded directives against making anything that isn't in some onboard data base-- say the cartridge provides one part of the desigh and the computer provides the other-- if either one is missing, it just sits there, and if you have a cartridge for an alpha fighter, the computer looks for it's internal countepart and at best goes "nope" and at worst melts down.

How do you add new components? You got to the robotech factory and have the entire unit overhauled, from templates provided by the Robotech masters.

That doesn't, mind you, prevent humans from using it-- a particle beam gun is a particle beam gun, and I assume that zentraedi systems are very moduclar so you could put it on a tank or a fighter. But it does mean that adding a new system isn't going to be as easy as "feed Alpha design manuel into IN hopper". You'd need someone very skilled in both human and robotech master technology.

For the ship itself, I'd figure drones that would go about and do some level of repair-- but considering how delapidated they looked in the OSM, even if you accept drones, they're not enough to keep a ship shiny.

Now obviously , this is an artifact of a setting where there was one, count 'em, one, robotech factory (maybe a few others). IN the Macross setting you really didn't need this because there were a lot of the factories floating about, making repair and resupply much easier.

[Tiree]

This is nuts. You are trying to provide a psuedo security system to a mini factory. At most, there would be a command control key of some sort. Maybe a badge to swipe - and that's it.

Programming is far out of zent's comfort zone you aren't going to get them trying something new. And if you are worried about the enemy, this is the Robotech Master's grand combat fleet - they can protect it. And if they need to replace their command card (if it was lost/damaged) he robotech Factory or Dolzas command ship could replace it.

[ArmySGT.]

This is nuts. You are trying to provide a psuedo security system to a mini factory. At most, there would be a command control key of some sort. Maybe a badge to swipe - and that's it.

Programming is far out of zent's comfort zone you aren't going to get them trying something new. And if you are worried about the enemy, this is the Robotech Master's grand combat fleet - they can protect it. And if they need to replace their command card (if it was lost/damaged) he robotech Factory or Dolzas command ship could replace it.

It is not so much a protection against another empire seizing one; as a safeguard against Zentraedi insurrection. Look how far the Masters / Dolza have gone at the suggestion that a ship might be influenced by micronians... Imagine Khyron with a factory satellite.

You don't build an army and then hope it stays loyal.

[ArmySGT.]

Consider the following.

http://www.technewsdaily.com/18509-design-museum-3d-printing-exhibition.html

[Seto Kaiba]

anything that lets them actually work, without taking up the entire ship with monotask manufacturing hardware, is going to have that issue.

's why the factories don't actually exist in canon, the way the factories are depicted in the series would make having one aboard a ship impractical at the best of times... especially since the Zentradi don't know how to repair their own tech and don't use solid ammo except for missiles.

This is nuts. You are trying to provide a psuedo security system to a mini factory. At most, there would be a command control key of some sort. Maybe a badge to swipe - and that's it.

Pretty much, yep.

It is not so much a protection against another empire seizing one; as a safeguard against Zentraedi insurrection. Look how far the Masters / Dolza have gone at the suggestion that a ship might be influenced by micronians... Imagine Khyron with a factory satellite.

The reason Dolza went fratricidal against the contaminated ships was that the "micronian influence" was causing the troops to lose their all-important (to a Zentradi) will to fight...

You don't build an army and then hope it stays loyal.

No, you do what the Protoculture (OSM) or Robotech Masters (RT) did... you build an army and mercilessly indoctrinate the hell out of it so every single soldier has your directives pounded into his head from the instant he first becomes conscious.

Consider the following.

http://www.technewsdaily.com/18509-design-museum-3d-printing-exhibition.html

The factories don't use 3D printing... we see welding operations going on when Gloval tours one.

[ArmySGT.]

It is not so much a protection against another empire seizing one; as a safeguard against Zentraedi insurrection. Look how far the Masters / Dolza have gone at the suggestion that a ship might be influenced by micronians... Imagine Khyron with a factory satellite.

The reason Dolza went fratricidal against the contaminated ships was that the "micronian influence" was causing the troops to lose their all-important (to a Zentradi) will to fight...

So exactly the same damn thing then.......... So glad we could agree.

You don't build an army and then hope it stays loyal.

No, you do what the Protoculture (OSM) or Robotech Masters (RT) did... you build an army and mercilessly indoctrinate the hell out of it so every single soldier has your directives pounded into his head from the instant he first becomes conscious.

Very effective........... Seeing as Khyron (the Bsckstabber!) was an poorly effective, psychopathic, and insubordinate who commonly rebelled against his orders or strayed outside those orders as suited him. Then there is Breetai who defected completely, and assisted in destruction of the Zentraedi fleet command, you remember Dolza's HQ right? The one the size of a planetoid.........

With a poor track record against insurrection (Where did Zor's ship go?) it's a safe bet that indoctrination and summary execution are only two of many tools in the Masters toolbox.

Consider the following.

http://www.technewsdaily.com/18509-design-museum-3d-printing-exhibition.html

The factories don't use 3D printing... we see welding operations going on when Gloval tours one.

Yes, the OSM...... I don't think I am going to hold them to an artists rendition of an early 80's robotic car assembly plant.

[mech798]

I think a comment from the designers of "Battletech" is wise to remember-- it's the future of the 1980's. That's why we see a robot phone chasing Rick around-- but the idea of a cell phone, let alone the advanced PDAs and internet we take for granted today isn't even mentioned.

that being said, it could very well be the robotech factory is an example of KISS in action-- it's designed to be foolproof rather than exhibiting the most advanced construction tech the master's can build.

In truth though, the idea of having an onboard factory on every shp makes little sense-- you lose most of your effeciencies of scale. Now, having a few LSTs, or perhaps a more specialized design that served as a combination tender/refitting ship, that makes more sense.

[Seto Kaiba]

So exactly the same damn thing then.......... So glad we could agree.

Not really, the Breetai forces weren't exactly having a violent insurrection... more of a non-violent space woodstock over Minmei dolls.

Very effective........... Seeing as Khyron (the Bsckstabber!) was an poorly effective, psychopathic, and insubordinate who commonly rebelled against his orders or strayed outside those orders as suited him.

But... if you listen to Exsedol/Exedore's little introductory speech about him, he's a ruthlessly effective commander as well. Or at least he was, prior to encountering his first-ever defeat at the hands of the SDF-1. Reckless, heck yes. Loyal? Yep, he might've been a reg-breaker and unused to the idea of not killing the enemy on sight, but he did as he was told right up until his superiors marked him for death by association.

Then there is Breetai who defected completely, and assisted in destruction of the Zentraedi fleet command, you remember Dolza's HQ right? The one the size of a planetoid.........

He only defected because he knew his fleet would be marked for extermination along with Earth... they come right out and say as much in their conference with the SDF-1's brass.

With a poor track record against insurrection (Where did Zor's ship go?) it's a safe bet that indoctrination and summary execution are only two of many tools in the Masters toolbox.

Considering the series tries to establish a ~500,000 year service history for the Zentradi in the Macross Saga (a dialog bit leftover from the original), two minor commanders in half a million years is a damn near spotless track record. They can't really be held to account for Zor's battlefortress, since Zor knew the ins and outs of robotechnology better than the Masters did, and apparently deliberately tried to bury that knowledge via the SDF-1.

Yes, the OSM...... I don't think I am going to hold them to an artists rendition of an early 80's robotic car assembly plant.

You don't have to, sure as sure, but Palladium does... because they're obliged to follow Harmony Gold's canon.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think a comment from the designers of "Battletech" is wise to remember-- it's the future of the 1980's. That's why we see a robot phone chasing Rick around-- but the idea of a cell phone, let alone the advanced PDAs and internet we take for granted today isn't even mentioned.

Less applicable than you might think.

There's a fair amount of evidence in post-reboot Robotech titles to indicate that the history of "Robotech Earth" splits from the real world's in or before 1995. The absence of things like advanced PDAs, commercial internet service, and cellular phones may be entirely justifiable in-universe depending on how long the Global War lasted and/or when the timeline of the Robotech universe split off from our own.

The From the Stars limited comic shows us a letter Rick has written to Roy shortly before Zor's battlefortress crashed on Macross Island... addressed to his station aboard the carrier Kenosha, which bears the hull number CVN-90. That's rather a big deviation right there, 15 hull numbers higher than it should be for the period. The most recent commission was, in the real world, CVN-75 USS Harry S. Truman. Roy's squadron is identified as the VF-84 Skull Squadron as well, but the real-world VF-84 Jolly Rogers (upon which Skull squad was based OSM-ly) was disestablished in 1995... and Rick wrote that letter in 1999. It gets worse when you consider that VF-84 were the Vagabonds when they were established in 1955, and adopted the Jolly Rogers moniker in 1960. This means that the timeline could potentially branch as far back as April 1, 1960... or even further, if the Jolly Rogers have always been known as the Skulls on "Robotech Earth".

The timeline only needs to split off in the mid-1980s for mobile phones, commercial internet, and advanced PDAs to not be present... and depending on when the name "Skull squadron" was first introduced, it could branch as far back as January 1, 1943, when the first Jolly Rogers were established as VF-17.


(Macross's creators have at least addressed this in Macross the First, which has all the technology that you'd have expected from 1999 real-world, and DYRL handily one-ups most of that anyway with strangeness like smart magazine paper and the like. The OSM version of Skull squadron was formed from the remnants of the Jolly Rogers and other elites during the UN Wars.)

[Seto Kaiba]

The other thing is that the ASS-1/SDF-1 should have had a system such as this or better, and we see nothing about it. [...]

Because it doesn't exist in the OSM... there was a modest factory aboard after the retrofit, but it was entirely human-made.

Heh, I never, not once, so much as made a connection between robot phone booths with pursuit modes and a total lack of portable telecommunications! Awesome, that one completely slipped by me!

Where are they gonna put signal towers inside of a giant warship anyway? Moreover, the military's pretty down on having a mobile phone inside sensitive installations... and the SDF-1 was certainly that. One could argue that cell phones of the 90's variety did exist, but are useless because of a lack of service and therefore not seen or get recycled for materials.

[glitterboy2098]

the robot phone obviously used wireless tech, since it was mobile, but presumably the network it was on was made to be very secure. given that the limits of 90's electronics would make really secure wireless systems bulky enough to make them less than ideal for cell phones.

of course, it also is possible there were cellphones tied into the onboard comms, but that the cast didn't have them. even in our world, cellphones didn't really get ubiquitous until the early 2000's. rick had little more than the clothes on his back when he wound up on the ship, and most of the people we see on the ship aren't really from the slice of society that had cellphones in the 90's. the robot phones might just have been a way to fill in the gaps.

(of course, the out of universe reason is 'future of the early 80's'.. cellphones were expensive, bulky, and rare. status symbols with limited utility.)

[Tiree]

Remember the people of Macross Island, were on an Island! The probability that the government would allow a cell phone carrier to park a ton of cell towers is unlikely. Then of course, when the island was taken on board the SDF1, do you think they would really recreate those towers? Possibly not.

But they were airing TV through the hull of the ship...