PPE-free magic

[Tor]

Seeing as how the Spirit Fox thread on the HU board got locked, and I still want to discuss this point, I want to clear up a misconception I keep seeing that PPE is required to cast magic, when it simply isn't.

PPE is how the majority of magic is cast, it is the core of recent books, but there are exceptions to it (in older books, but still canonical Palladium Megaverse material) which show it is not a necessity. Examples include:

1. ISP-powered magic in Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy
2. Chi-powered magic in Mystic China
3. Castings-per-day magic in PRPG 1st edition as well as most Rune Weapons and many other magic objects in Rifts. Only in very recent books (such as Library of Bletherad) have Rune Weapons actually been given PPE pools. Some OCCs (like the Time Lord in Transdimensional TMNT, or you could call that a mutant animal class, whatev) do not have any updated PPE-based statistics for their spells or class and casting-per-day is all that can be used for them.
4. Mutants in Avalon has magic equivalents of mutant animal psionic abilities which can (like them) be used indefinitely
5. Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Beings (such as dragons) have magic-based things like fire breath which don't always cost PPE to use.
6. Psyscape Pg 132, the Yhabbayar Mystics can create Magic Bubbles using ISP
7. Psyscape Pg 137, the Zaayr Crystal Dragons breathe a "Magic Flame" which is powered by ISP
8. Techno-Wizard items can create magical effects powered by ISP

This shows that having PPE, using PPE, is not essential to the process of using magic. However much it may be the background material, precedents exist for casting magic bypassing the need for that new-age energy pool.

This is why arguments against PPE-less races being unable to use magic are flawed. Only if a race specifically says magic can't be used (Seljuk comes to mind) should we assume that it can't be. Even then, it's questionable if there are workarounds (witchery unions come to mind).

[Nekira Sudacne]

1: Mechanoid Invasion Trillogy is kind of obsolete at this point? It was the first books ever produced, but system mechanics have changed. PPE wasn't invented until Beyond the Supernatural, but it has sense been retconned as being megaversally required. just because they could use it without a mechanic that didn't exist at the time of it's printing dosn't mean they can now.
2: Mystic China makes it clear that it requires PPE to work, as well as Chi.
3: Citing obsolete mechanics dosn't help build your case. 1st edition magic rules have been replaced. just because PPE didn't exist at the time dosn't mean it's a precedent for things not needing PPE now. As for magic items using spells per day, errm...so? Magic items are themselves a magical effect, that requires PPE. It's a permanent effect that can conitnue to spawn other effects without requiring further PPE infusions, but it's still paid for via the initial enchantment proceedure.
4: again, you can't cite sources that pre-date BTS as examples of things not needing to use PPE to use magic because PPE didn't exist until then. it is clear that palladiums decided to retroactivly apply them to the entire megaverse however, even without reprinting every core book to reprint it.

Also: say it with me now: Just because an effect or item has no PPE cost to the user dosn't mean the PPE isn't being drawn from somewhere

Your arguments are flawed because it rests on obsolete rules that no longer apply.

[Tor]

No book is obsolete. The MIT is the cornerstone of the PB megaverse and even crosses into Rifts via SB1. New mechanics are for new worlds. It's one thing if a class gets updated, but if we get no new stats for classes like the Mage or Arch-Mage, they would not simply cease to exist because we haven't thrown PPE stats at them.

Where in the new books does it say PPE is megaversally required? I may be overlooking it in some main book or magic book flavour text, but I'm wondering if it is really that explicit. This would mean that we would have to retcon one of the Chi Magic spells out of existence since it doesn't require PPE to work.

You're not accurately describing Mystic China because one of those spells definitely can be powered purely by chi.

You said magic items are magical effects that require PPE, but that's circular reasoning, we don't have the rules for how all of those are created and don't know if PPE was used to do so, like we do with PPE costs for the creations of some other items.

It's also worth noting that Mystic China is NOT pre-BtS. It's also not clear that retroactive application of rules is megaversal and not simply dimensional in nature. RUE may override RMB, and PF2nd may override PRPG (even though some characters like the Juggernaught got utterly changed and should really be treated like separate individuals or dimensions) but if there's no replacement then we have no PPE substitute for older systems.

Just because an effect or item has no PPE cost to the user dosn't mean the PPE isn't being drawn from somewhere

Perhaps not, but it does mean we can cast magic using ISP and Chi instead of PPE. Even if that means that somewhere along the way there is a conversion. So it still contradicts assumptions that one needs to have PPE to produce PPE effects.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No book is obsolete.

That's exactly what moving from first edition to second edition means, actually.

The MIT is the cornerstone of the PB megaverse and even crosses into Rifts via SB1.

Which is relevent to it's PPE mechancis how, precicely?

New mechanics are for new worlds. It's one thing if a class gets updated, but if we get no new stats for classes like the Mage or Arch-Mage, they would not simply cease to exist because we haven't thrown PPE stats at them.

The fact that conversions don't exist dosn't mean they arn't considered to be converted, just that we don't have the stats for them.

Where in the new books does it say PPE is megaversally required?

Every magic section in every book put out sinse BTS has said so. but try this on for size. page 14 of the megaverse builder discribes what happens if a character is in a dimension with no ambient PPE whatsoever: the PPE cost of all spells is doubled (Which indicates that all magic in fact draws on at least some ambient PPE to work in addition to that provided by the caster), and no spontanious or natural magic effect of any kind works or can happen.

I may be overlooking it in some main book or magic book flavour text, but I'm wondering if it is really that explicit. This would mean that we would have to retcon one of the Chi Magic spells out of existence since it doesn't require PPE to work.

Or just assume it draws on ambient PPE to work, which is more likely.

You're not accurately describing Mystic China because one of those spells definitely can be powered purely by chi.

Again, the fact it dosn't list a PPE cost dosn't mean there isn't one, it just means it's so low it just works by background PPE.

You said magic items are magical effects that require PPE, but that's circular reasoning, we don't have the rules for how all of those are created and don't know if PPE was used to do so, like we do with PPE costs for the creations of some other items.

We do have rules for how some are created, which is ample to supply the precident. You can argue that some unstatated magical item creation procueedure might not require PPE, but you have no valid basis to make that assumption on, whereas I have several examples to draw from. just off the top of my head: the staves made by the Schathach druid in Rifts England.

It's also worth noting that Mystic China is NOT pre-BtS.

Already addressed. the fact that one chi spell dosn't list a chi cost dosn't mean PPE is not needed for the process, it just means the mage dosn't have to provide it.

It's also not clear that retroactive application of rules is megaversal and not simply dimensional in nature. RUE may override RMB, and PF2nd may override PRPG (even though some characters like the Juggernaught got utterly changed and should really be treated like separate individuals or dimensions) but if there's no replacement then we have no PPE substitute for older systems.

The Megaverse builder provides rules for all dimensions, both pre-existing ones adn unbuilt future ones, and it makes it clear PPE is Universally (Well, megaversally) required for magic.

the fact that some classes and NPC's get screwed by this without conversions provided dosn't change the fact it's offical, it just means those classes are screwed.

Just because an effect or item has no PPE cost to the user dosn't mean the PPE isn't being drawn from somewhere

Perhaps not, but it does mean we can cast magic using ISP and Chi instead of PPE. Even if that means that somewhere along the way there is a conversion. So it still contradicts assumptions that one needs to have PPE to produce PPE effects.

[/quote]

No, if your converting ISP or Chi to PPE to provide the PPE for the spell, then clearly you do need PPE for the spell, which is why you have to convert Chi and ISP into PPE before the spell works. That's actually an argument in my favor, not yours, especially as TW items automatically convert ISP and Chi into PPE when infused with them by a psychic or chi master. this dosn't mean that PPE isnt' needed for the device to function--it is, that's why it's converted. nor does it mean that converting them dosn't require some PPE in and of itself. it's just that the very low PPE needed is provided either by the enchantments on the TW item itself or ambient PPE. the fact we don't have rules for it is kind of irrelevent as that is clearly what's stated to be happening.

I know you really really hate the idea of changing cannon invalidating your previous purchases, but just because you think it really stinks that palladium did it, dosn't mean palladium didn't do it.

[Nightmask]

You've a lot of flawed reasoning there Tor, not the least of which trying to argue that because one spell out of ALL spells doesn't require PPE that spells don't really require PPE when that's clear evidence of the opposite, especially when that lone spell exists to make PPE available to cast spells. It's also clear that chi-magic spells don't run on chi in spite of the name but instead run on PPE (outside of the one exception). 'The exception proves the rule' means 'as an exception it exists as proof that a particular rule exists', in this case that all magic requires PPE with the lone exception existing only to provide PPE further supporting why it even exists as an exception.

One also can't reasonably argue that even though all magical items we see are products of manipulating PPE and casting spells either normally or in rituals of some sort that somehow somewhere there are items that aren't produced that way so that's evidence that PPE isn't required to make magic items. That's simply really bad reasoning. There is zero evidence to the contrary, all evidence points towards PPE being required to make magic items so all existing evidence says claims that PPE isn't required to make magic items fail due to all existing evidence saying it does.

The misconception is really on your part that you think PPE isn't required for magic when Palladium says it is, and as Nekira notes Palladium standardized its spell-casting system around PPE for the entire megaverse retconning older books that don't include it to make it a requirement. Which is why in the conversion book those older classes were shown getting a PPE base when traveling to Rifts and being bound by Rifts casting rules. If you want to run by the superseded rules you can but they aren't evidence that magic doesn't require PPE simply evidence of worlds that Palladium hasn't updated (and in the case of older HU books they have been updated/superseded so that mages from HU align with the PPE system they've decided to use everywhere).

[Zamion138]

Indont think ppe is needed for all spell like abilities but for incantation, it is needed.
Rune weapons feed of the the immortal life force traped inside, for both the spell like effects and the raw abilities of the weapon like +1 to saves and almost always higher dmg. You need some life force inside. Is it pulling ppe? We dont know i dont think its ever been stated but its deffintly some force inside fueling it and usaly its a demon or elemental...ect.
2 isp=1 ppe for tw stuff usaly.
i want to say 2 chi=1 isp as chi dragon lines run off leylines as tiny streams per mystic china.
anyhow if you dont have ppe i dont think you can cast, if you have isp but not ppe you could still use tw stuff but not build it and costly to use.

i cant think of any living creature that doesnt have some ppe mind you, im sure they are out there though. But I bet some of them are typos that were accidently left off for the most part.

so i gotta agree no ppe no casting incantations and similar spells. The pf 1st ed rules are pre ppe and i gotta agree they dont apply.

[Glistam]

PPE is how the majority of magic is cast, it is the core of recent books, but there are exceptions to it (in older books, but still canonical Palladium Megaverse material) which show it is not a necessity. Examples include:

1. ISP-powered magic in Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy
2. Chi-powered magic in Mystic China
3. Castings-per-day magic in PRPG 1st edition as well as most Rune Weapons and many other magic objects in Rifts. Only in very recent books (such as Library of Bletherad) have Rune Weapons actually been given PPE pools. Some OCCs (like the Time Lord in Transdimensional TMNT, or you could call that a mutant animal class, whatev) do not have any updated PPE-based statistics for their spells or class and casting-per-day is all that can be used for them.
4. Mutants in Avalon has magic equivalents of mutant animal psionic abilities which can (like them) be used indefinitely
5. Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Beings (such as dragons) have magic-based things like fire breath which don't always cost PPE to use.
6. Psyscape Pg 132, the Yhabbayar Mystics can create Magic Bubbles using ISP
7. Psyscape Pg 137, the Zaayr Crystal Dragons breathe a "Magic Flame" which is powered by ISP
8. Techno-Wizard items can create magical effects powered by ISP

This shows that having PPE, using PPE, is not essential to the process of using magic. However much it may be the background material, precedents exist for casting magic bypassing the need for that new-age energy pool.

I think this makes the case that indeed, P.P.E. is not always necessary for magic. But like the OP said, P.P.E. is what most magic uses and requires. These rare examples are for the most part just that - rare, unique, and in some cases (as previously noted in giant walls of text) obsolete.

I don't understand what all this issues is about. It seems pretty straightforward. Not ALL magic requires P.P.E.. You can ignore that for your games if you wish, and nothing really changes. Or, you can take that idea and do something interesting with it.

[Nightmask]

PPE is how the majority of magic is cast, it is the core of recent books, but there are exceptions to it (in older books, but still canonical Palladium Megaverse material) which show it is not a necessity. Examples include:

1. ISP-powered magic in Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy
2. Chi-powered magic in Mystic China
3. Castings-per-day magic in PRPG 1st edition as well as most Rune Weapons and many other magic objects in Rifts. Only in very recent books (such as Library of Bletherad) have Rune Weapons actually been given PPE pools. Some OCCs (like the Time Lord in Transdimensional TMNT, or you could call that a mutant animal class, whatev) do not have any updated PPE-based statistics for their spells or class and casting-per-day is all that can be used for them.
4. Mutants in Avalon has magic equivalents of mutant animal psionic abilities which can (like them) be used indefinitely
5. Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Beings (such as dragons) have magic-based things like fire breath which don't always cost PPE to use.
6. Psyscape Pg 132, the Yhabbayar Mystics can create Magic Bubbles using ISP
7. Psyscape Pg 137, the Zaayr Crystal Dragons breathe a "Magic Flame" which is powered by ISP
8. Techno-Wizard items can create magical effects powered by ISP

This shows that having PPE, using PPE, is not essential to the process of using magic. However much it may be the background material, precedents exist for casting magic bypassing the need for that new-age energy pool.

I think this makes the case that indeed, P.P.E. is not always necessary for magic. But like the OP said, P.P.E. is what most magic uses and requires. These rare examples are for the most part just that - rare, unique, and in some cases (as previously noted in giant walls of text) obsolete.

I don't understand what all this issues is about. It seems pretty straightforward. Not ALL magic requires P.P.E.. You can ignore that for your games if you wish, and nothing really changes. Or, you can take that idea and do something interesting with it.

I'm not seeing how you arrive at that conclusion, given his examples are either wrong (Chi Magic requires PPE not Chi as he seems to think, and he seems to treat the one spell that converts Chi to PPE as if that somehow proves none of the spells require PPE instead of the opposite) or have flawed foundations (attempting to argue that magic items like Rune Weapons having spells they can cast as 'proof' that not all spells require PPE instead of the more obvious consideration that they're powered by the PPE of their prisoners).

I can't find any evidence of anything to support his 'well Mutants in Avalon has ISP powered magic' either, it has the Druid OCC but it's clearly like the Mystic from the Rifts main book where they develop psychic powers as they level but may also have something more spell-like.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also-some fairies (might be all but not sure) can cast spell magic without using P.P.E.

The only point I disagree with is in reference is using 1st edition PFRPG (as it has a second edition), Chi/P.P.E. are close they may be considered different but I'm not looking it up right now.

If the point is: That not all Magic Requires P.P.E.... Then there is no question that this is true...

One only need to think of one instance, such as the fact that fairies can cast magic without expending P.P.E.; they don't use spend P.P.E points yet the magic is cast. Rune weapons may well be another example; but again I'm not looking it up right now.

As I pointed out, that reason is faulty. just because the user of magic need not always provide PPE, and thus have no PPE cost to pay, dosn't mean PPE isn't being used--it's just not being provided by the caster.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The rules now are set up as a cost system, regardless of what they once were. You have PPE to pay the cost of the spells which list a PPE cost. All of the spells in the system are set up this way now.

[Glistam]

I'm not seeing how you arrive at that conclusion, given his examples are either wrong (Chi Magic requires PPE not Chi as he seems to think, and he seems to treat the one spell that converts Chi to PPE as if that somehow proves none of the spells require PPE instead of the opposite) or have flawed foundations (attempting to argue that magic items like Rune Weapons having spells they can cast as 'proof' that not all spells require PPE instead of the more obvious consideration that they're powered by the PPE of their prisoners).

I can't find any evidence of anything to support his 'well Mutants in Avalon has ISP powered magic' either, it has the Druid OCC but it's clearly like the Mystic from the Rifts main book where they develop psychic powers as they level but may also have something more spell-like.

You only need one example to work in order to make the statement correct, and the Chi Magic spell "Convert Chi to PPE" is that example. Whether everything else works or not doesn't matter to me - I'm not interested in walls of text. But that one spell does NOT require PPE to work. It is a spell, Chi and PPE are explicitly stated as NOT being the same thing, and there it is - Not all magic requires the caster to expend PPE to work.

Faeries as listed in the Rifts Conversion Book 1 are another good example that someone brought up. It's a pretty cool idea to play with - like it's the Megaverse's dark secret that only few know. Why? How? Just this idea has 'adventure' or even 'campaign' written all over it.

The Island at the Edge of the World also has the "Life Force Mage" who can cast spells without PPE - they use life points, stolen from the hit points of others.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Also-some fairies (might be all but not sure) can cast spell magic without using P.P.E.

The only point I disagree with is in reference is using 1st edition PFRPG (as it has a second edition), Chi/P.P.E. are close they may be considered different but I'm not looking it up right now.

If the point is: That not all Magic Requires P.P.E.... Then there is no question that this is true...

One only need to think of one instance, such as the fact that fairies can cast magic without expending P.P.E.; they don't use spend P.P.E points yet the magic is cast. Rune weapons may well be another example; but again I'm not looking it up right now.

Fairies cast their racial magic from PPE from the enviroment. So while they do not expend their personal PPE, they do expend PPE when making their magic.

Had a thought of how things would go down if the fairies in question were on the splicers world or another where there was almost no PPE in the enviroment.

[Brayon]

As a GM, my advice would be this: "It depends on the GM, and what they allow in their individual game."

For me personally, I see no problem with a Character not using their personal store of P.P.E. to cast magic. However, the magic is coming from another source. Be it a Divine Being, Alien Intelligence, Ley Line, Nexus Point, Weave of Magic, or Ambient Atmospheric P.P.E. its coming from Somewhere else in order to be in existence.

[drewkitty ~..~]

J.J. you should not get tunnel vision when trying to find things in a PB book. You might miss what is just a few lines above or below the section you think the text you are looking for should be found in.

4. PPE: 1d6x100 plus can automatically draw on the PPE around them,...

This is the text from both the RCB1 & RCB1r.

There is nearly the same text in the PF:M&A book.
(yes, they have written the text so newbs can understand it. So it mentions things like LL & LLN as to give them the basic concept that there is ambient PPE.)

[The Beast]

The Island at the Edge of the World also has the "Life Force Mage" who can cast spells without PPE - they use life points, stolen from the hit points of others.

That was under 1st Ed rules. The update in PFRPG WB10 says the excess HP convert to PPE.

[Nightmask]

I'm not seeing how you arrive at that conclusion, given his examples are either wrong (Chi Magic requires PPE not Chi as he seems to think, and he seems to treat the one spell that converts Chi to PPE as if that somehow proves none of the spells require PPE instead of the opposite) or have flawed foundations (attempting to argue that magic items like Rune Weapons having spells they can cast as 'proof' that not all spells require PPE instead of the more obvious consideration that they're powered by the PPE of their prisoners).

I can't find any evidence of anything to support his 'well Mutants in Avalon has ISP powered magic' either, it has the Druid OCC but it's clearly like the Mystic from the Rifts main book where they develop psychic powers as they level but may also have something more spell-like.

You only need one example to work in order to make the statement correct, and the Chi Magic spell "Convert Chi to PPE" is that example. Whether everything else works or not doesn't matter to me - I'm not interested in walls of text. But that one spell does NOT require PPE to work. It is a spell, Chi and PPE are explicitly stated as NOT being the same thing, and there it is - Not all magic requires the caster to expend PPE to work.

Faeries as listed in the Rifts Conversion Book 1 are another good example that someone brought up. It's a pretty cool idea to play with - like it's the Megaverse's dark secret that only few know. Why? How? Just this idea has 'adventure' or even 'campaign' written all over it.

The Island at the Edge of the World also has the "Life Force Mage" who can cast spells without PPE - they use life points, stolen from the hit points of others.

That's not an example, that's an exception. The argument isn't 'there are some spells that are exceptions and don't require PPE to cast', but 'well people are confused and you don't really need PPE to cast spells' which is wrong, you do need PPE to cast spells (natural spell-like abilities not being in the same category and therefor not relevant). When you have ONE spell out of hundreds if not thousands that doesn't require PPE and it's ONLY purpose is to convert an existing energy INTO PPE then the conclusion one would have to make is that 'spells require PPE to function', not 'well they don't really need it' because NO spell outside of that exception can be cast without PPE from somewhere. Even Celestial Calligraphy requires you to place the PPE into the spell paper during crafting, or hope that whoever burns it has enough PPE to fuel the spell.

[ScottBernard]

PPE wasn't invented until Beyond the Supernatural, but it has sense been retconned as being megaversally required. just because they could use it without a mechanic that didn't exist at the time of it's printing dosn't mean they can now.

Your arguments are flawed because it rests on obsolete rules that no longer apply.

It doesnt help your own argument when what you say is wrong. PPE was first introduced in Rifts not BTS.

And how about letting the guy present his ideas instead of dogpilling on him.

[Goliath Strongarm]

The Island at the Edge of the World also has the "Life Force Mage" who can cast spells without PPE - they use life points, stolen from the hit points of others.

Sort of, but you're only looking at half of it.

The Life force mage takes Hit points from people, yes. Beyond a specific number of HP they steal, it turns into PPE. This PPE is used to cast spells and abilities.

Once that's gone, yes, they "can" use HP to pay for spells. But, essentially, what's happening is their body is converting HP into PPE, at a 1:1 ratio.

See a previous post where someone mentioned about "converting".

I've been trying to stay away from this thread. Some of what's been said in here is just silly. Seriously silly. Using stuff that's completely outdated as a "valid" source. Beyond silly. Because magic items (which have been crafted, by magic users who follow the standard rules) do things X many times per day, they are examples? Beyond silly.

The general rule is, magic requires PPE. Psionics require ISP. Are there possible exceptions? Maybe, but, you know what? Most of those exceptions actually have valid answers and aren't "exceptions" if you step back and think about it. Now, I'm going to try to stay away from this thread again...

[Glistam]

That's not an example, that's an exception. The argument isn't 'there are some spells that are exceptions and don't require PPE to cast', but 'well people are confused and you don't really need PPE to cast spells' which is wrong, you do need PPE to cast spells (natural spell-like abilities not being in the same category and therefor not relevant). When you have ONE spell out of hundreds if not thousands that doesn't require PPE and it's ONLY purpose is to convert an existing energy INTO PPE then the conclusion one would have to make is that 'spells require PPE to function', not 'well they don't really need it' because NO spell outside of that exception can be cast without PPE from somewhere. Even Celestial Calligraphy requires you to place the PPE into the spell paper during crafting, or hope that whoever burns it has enough PPE to fuel the spell.

Don't tell me how to think. That's the conclusion you draw from that, not the conclusion I must draw. I've already drawn and stated my conclusion. Nothing you've said has compelled me to change that.

You've chosen to buy into the megaversal "retcon" that P.P.E. must be expended by a spellcaster in order to cast a spell. That's cool, but who or what does that serve? Why did someone or something go to the trouble of eradicating these alternative methods from the Megaverse? They were mostly successful, but not completely. Could those ancient secrets be uncovered or re-learned? And why could that even be necessary? I intend to grab a ragtag crew of diverse yet equally-minded individuals (perhaps 4-6 of them) and seek out the answers to these questions. Eventually.

[Nightmask]

That's not an example, that's an exception. The argument isn't 'there are some spells that are exceptions and don't require PPE to cast', but 'well people are confused and you don't really need PPE to cast spells' which is wrong, you do need PPE to cast spells (natural spell-like abilities not being in the same category and therefor not relevant). When you have ONE spell out of hundreds if not thousands that doesn't require PPE and it's ONLY purpose is to convert an existing energy INTO PPE then the conclusion one would have to make is that 'spells require PPE to function', not 'well they don't really need it' because NO spell outside of that exception can be cast without PPE from somewhere. Even Celestial Calligraphy requires you to place the PPE into the spell paper during crafting, or hope that whoever burns it has enough PPE to fuel the spell.

Don't tell me how to think. That's the conclusion you draw from that, not the conclusion I must draw. I've already drawn and stated my conclusion. Nothing you've said has compelled me to change that.

You've chosen to buy into the megaversal "retcon" that P.P.E. must be expended by a spellcaster in order to cast a spell. That's cool, but who or what does that serve? Why did someone or something go to the trouble of eradicating these alternative methods from the Megaverse? They were mostly successful, but not completely. Could those ancient secrets be uncovered or re-learned? And why could that even be necessary? I intend to grab a ragtag crew of diverse yet equally-minded individuals (perhaps 4-6 of them) and seek out the answers to these questions. Eventually.

That's not telling you (or anyone else) how to think, it's pointing out errors such as pointing to an exception and mislabeling it as an example. The examples are all the spells that exist that run on PPE (effectively all of them), a single spell that doesn't run on PPE (because it's designed to convert another energy into PPE) doesn't constitute an example that PPE isn't necessary for spells it's an example of just how necessary PPE is that Chi Mages developed a spell to increase their PPE reserves to cast all the other spells that exist (since they're fairly PPE poor, the worst of the spell-casting classes).

There also isn't any 'buying into a retcon' going on, there's making all the settings more compatible by unifying the magic system under a single way of explaining things (to the point I admit they overuse PPE for things it simply shouldn't be used for, such as conflating it with psionics and ISP). Palladium can hardly be expected to go through every setting particularly those that just aren't updated or seeing more work in anymore to bring them in line with the full megaversal setting.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Let's get something straight.

Retcon is like the 2 for living rule for PF, where they will toss it in later and say "we are going to pretend this was here all along. Fix your older stuff".

PPE is an update from one edition to the next, a version change, not a retcon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

J.J. you should not get tunnel vision when trying to find things in a PB book. You might miss what is just a few lines above or below the section you think the text you are looking for should be found in.

4. PPE: 1d6x100 plus can automatically draw on the PPE around them,...

This is the text from both the RCB1 & RCB1r.

There is nearly the same text in the PF:M&A book.
(yes, they have written the text so newbs can understand it. So it mentions things like LL & LLN as to give them the basic concept that there is ambient PPE.)

I have read the entire section many times... (J.L. if you please sir)

As to your post: Sure... And where does it say that they use the P.P.E. in which they draw, to cast spells?
Let me answer for you: It doesn't
Also Keep in mind, that faeries use other abilities that use P.P.E. and consider that if they used P.P.E. to cast magic why would they be restricted in using spell magic the way that they are; in that they are limited in their casting... If in using P.P.E., because they have a very decent P.P.E. base, they could far exceed the limits they are stuck too-Hence they don't need or use P.P.E. with their spell magic- Say what you will; but where is the canon source that says directly they use P.P.E.? They isn't one (unless I missed it)...

For the Win-

My only point is that it is not stated directly, and beings that faeries have their own set of rules and regulations that are written it is (in my opinion) folly to assume that they follow the standard magic formula... Faeries are different.

Sorry about the typo, was a bit tired then, J.L.

If you take it all as parts, then yes, there is no connection between the two sections. However, they are describing a whole, because "They Talk about the same beings' and their relationship with magic."

And no, they do not "cast spells', they 'make magic'. (yes, there is a difference. And I am only talking about the racial magic, not any magic they may have "learned". Which would be spell magic.)

And as I see it the pointed out automatic drawing of ambient PPE was put into the stats was to explain H.T.F. they can make magic without using their own PPE reserves and thus can make magic all day long w/o running into a "ran out of PPE" limit. This 'limitless' making magic is in the PF1 book in very much the same text as appears in the RCB1,RCB1r, and PF:M&A.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Let's get something straight.

Retcon is like the 2 for living rule for PF, where they will toss it in later and say "we are going to pretend this was here all along. Fix your older stuff".
...snip

I would ask you where in a PF book it says 'specifically' that the 2APM for living has been added to the PF setting, stated in a PF book? Not a rifts book nor any book from any other setting. Just a PF book.
(If there is none, then please do not use this example again.)

[Goliath Strongarm]

Let's get something straight.

Retcon is like the 2 for living rule for PF, where they will toss it in later and say "we are going to pretend this was here all along. Fix your older stuff".
...snip

I would ask you where in a PF book it says 'specifically' that the 2APM for living has been added to the PF setting, stated in a PF book? Not a rifts book nor any book from any other setting. Just a PF book.
(If there is none, then please do not use this example again.)

They didn't say it. But if you look at NPCs starting in... IIRC Western Empire, suddenly all NPCs have it. But there is never mention of the rule, in the books. It's treated as if it "just is". That is still retcon.

Edit: it is also in the faq that it applies to all characters in all games. Good enough for you?

[The Beast]

Let's get something straight.

Retcon is like the 2 for living rule for PF, where they will toss it in later and say "we are going to pretend this was here all along. Fix your older stuff".
...snip

I would ask you where in a PF book it says 'specifically' that the 2APM for living has been added to the PF setting, stated in a PF book? Not a rifts book nor any book from any other setting. Just a PF book.
(If there is none, then please do not use this example again.)

One of the writers mentioned that they were to start adding it to any NPCs they make.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Back onto topic- the flaws in the argument have been pointed out- many of them repeatedly.

The case is made, the OPs "theory" is invalid.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Back onto topic- the flaws in the argument have been pointed out- many of them repeatedly.

The case is made, the OPs "theory" is invalid.

Oh-Good!-

Someone has discovered what makes Tors theory invalid! I am eagerly waiting for your answers...Other than just your claim on the matter.

Yeah...I guess it's all "my claim" in these posts from multiple users pointing out that he was using obsolete books, half-rules, things that require conversions, etc etc etc. Yup. All "my claims. From multiple users. Obviously.

And THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is why I was trying to stay away from this topic to start with. I should have.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Was I being too harsh?-

I apologize if my post offended you.

The point is to encourage you to make a point-not just say that someone's posts is invalid or silly. Of coarse its all silly, as we are debating a game. If you choose to just dismiss what people are saying, whether for or against that is fine, but the question is what do you have to contribute to the conversation?

And that last question is meant as an encouragement.

What is it that makes Tors theory invalid?

A good idea is to pretend that I'm the G.M. of your game and you are a player, and for some reason I've chosen to implement some of Tors theories into the game, to which as a player you object too. How would you make your point? And possibly why those theories are (in your words as silly-invalid) not a good basis for the game?

And as has been pointed out- repeatedly, to the point that it's beyond ridiculous- he's using outdated books from previous editions (whether or not that specific book has been updated or not, or if that license is GONE is moot), he's using half-rules, ignoring parts about conversions, etc.


As for you being too "harsh". No, it wasn't harsh. If you want to lower yourself by trying to insult me (operative word: trying. I've been insulted by FAR better than you at it), and ignoring everything that had been posted on the thread so far, and requiring me to point them out, again and again and again, please, continue. Or, you could go back and reread the thread. As for me, I'm done. The case has been made. If you can't see it, you made need to visit an optometrist.

[Glistam]

Back onto topic- the validity of the argument have been pointed out- repeatedly.

The case is made, the OPs "theory" is valid.

[Brayon]

As a GM, my advice would be this: "It depends on the GM, and what they allow in their individual game."

For me personally, I see no problem with a Character not using their personal store of P.P.E. to cast magic. However, the magic is coming from another source. Be it a Divine Being, Alien Intelligence, Ley Line, Nexus Point, Weave of Magic, or Ambient Atmospheric P.P.E. its coming from Somewhere else in order to be in existence.

[Nightmask]

Back onto topic- the validity of the argument have been pointed out- repeatedly.

The case is made, the OPs "theory" is valid.

The validity of the argument has been disputed repeatedly, it hasn't been actually validated.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The dimension builder book states that magic effects and costs are affected by how much PPE is available, therefore making PPE necessary for magic to occur, whether the mage actually uses their own PPE or that in the environment to cast it, or whether a race of creatures casts automatically. PPE is necessary. Casting using HP, ISP or Chi is still reliant on the existence of PPE and the ability to convert these things to PPE. It does not invalidate PPE nor make magic possible without its presence.

[Brayon]

Would like to ask:

By what measure are games being ruled obsolete in this discussion?

The obsolete ruling came from some of the Books having a revised and/or 2nd ed version of them. Like Rifts Sourcebook 1, or the PFRPG. In addition to that other books, like the Megaverse Builder states that with No P.P.E. in the verse being built, no magic. I've personally haven't confirmed that one.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The dimension builder book states that magic effects and costs are affected by how much PPE is available, therefore making PPE necessary for magic to occur, whether the mage actually uses their own PPE or that in the environment to cast it, or whether a race of creatures casts automatically. PPE is necessary. Casting using HP, ISP or Chi is still reliant on the existence of PPE and the ability to convert these things to PPE. It does not invalidate PPE nor make magic possible without its presence.

Page numbers?

I cannot quote a specific page due to not having ready access to the book in question, which is the Megaverse Builder. All I know is that magic depends on their being a certain level of PPE in the environment.

[Nightmask]

The dimension builder book states that magic effects and costs are affected by how much PPE is available, therefore making PPE necessary for magic to occur, whether the mage actually uses their own PPE or that in the environment to cast it, or whether a race of creatures casts automatically. PPE is necessary. Casting using HP, ISP or Chi is still reliant on the existence of PPE and the ability to convert these things to PPE. It does not invalidate PPE nor make magic possible without its presence.

Page numbers?

I cannot quote a specific page due to not having ready access to the book in question, which is the Megaverse Builder. All I know is that magic depends on their being a certain level of PPE in the environment.

Nekira also pointed that out SG, that as the ambient PPE levels get lower it becomes harder to cast magic and it becomes more expensive in PPE. Which only makes sense if all spells rely somewhat on the PPE in the environment to power them. Hmmm, that actually has something of an example in the El Goonish Shive webcomic, as it's discovered that the ambient magical energy in the area the webcomic is set in has been increasing causing otherwise weak creatures of magic to become stronger and make those already strong hideously powerful.

[Tor]

That's exactly what moving from first edition to second edition means, actually.

That's up for debate, when it goes as far as changing major NPCs or removing entire occupations, the original editions still hold great value. If someone wants an evil Juggernaut or a non-psionic Healer, PRPG is still great. Plus there's never been a Transdimensional2nd or a Mechanoids2nd.

The MIT is the cornerstone of the PB megaverse and even crosses into Rifts via SB1.

Which is relevent to it's PPE mechancis how, precicely?

It isn't, that was just about the whole calling its classes 'obsolete' thing. The stats given for the Mage OCCs and the aliens that empower them are all very ISP-focused.

The fact that conversions don't exist dosn't mean they arn't considered to be converted, just that we don't have the stats for them.

If they were meant to be converted, this could've been done in Conversion Book 1. If Kevin skipped over doing so, I don't think it's right to assume changes would've been necessary.

Where in the new books does it say PPE is megaversally required?

Every magic section in every book put out sinse BTS has said so.

Looking for some direct quotes to interpret

page 14 of the megaverse builder discribes what happens if a character is in a dimension with no ambient PPE whatsoever: the PPE cost of all spells is doubled (Which indicates that all magic in fact draws on at least some ambient PPE to work in addition to that provided by the caster)

Spells that do not cost PPE would obviously not be doubled though (since 2 x 0 is 0), so all this says is that PPE-powered spells draw on ambient PPE.

If we look at the notable 'convert chi to PPE' spell, if you power it with PPE it would be doubled (1 to 2) but if you powered it with chi (6) it would not be.

no spontanious or natural magic effect of any kind works or can happen.

I'm not clear on what this covers. Wizards who cast with a spell-per-day system or mages who cast them via ISP are not exactly using 'natural' magical effects, since they are learned abilities, and since it's contemplated and a choice, it isn't spontaneous.

Albeit I find both of those adjectives (natural/spontaneous) to be kinda vague... the opposite of the first I take it is either artificial or supernatural? Not sure on what the opposite of spontaneous would be... planned in advance?

I may be overlooking it in some main book or magic book flavour text, but I'm wondering if it is really that explicit. This would mean that we would have to retcon one of the Chi Magic spells out of existence since it doesn't require PPE to work.

Or just assume it draws on ambient PPE to work, which is more likely.

That wouldn't be the case, since its chi cost would not be doubled in a PPE-less dimension. Ruling "you have to pay an extra PPE since there's no ambient" seems more of a stretch to me.

the fact it dosn't list a PPE cost dosn't mean there isn't one, it just means it's so low it just works by background PPE.

Something not listing a cost does mean it doesn't have one. Your 'double in PPEless dimensions' leap of faith is clever but I think it still only applies to purely PPE-fueled magic and not all magic.

We do have rules for how some are created, which is ample to supply the precident.

Having ample rules on how to make steal weapons doesn't mean you can't make weapons out of bronze.

You can argue that some unstatated magical item creation procueedure might not require PPE, but you have no valid basis to make that assumption on, whereas I have several examples to draw from. just off the top of my head: the staves made by the Schathach druid in Rifts England.

Which only shows that some magic items require PPE to make. Mystic Russia's Old Believer isn't mentioned as requiring any PPE costs to make his magical staff. The only mention of PPE with that thing is that he can pump some in to make it a temporary holy symbol.

the fact that one chi spell dosn't list a chi cost dosn't mean PPE is not needed for the process, it just means the mage dosn't have to provide it.

This would mean that it couldn't work in PPEless dimensions. Rather than accept the proof of magic not needing PPE, you are assigning an arbitrary unseen cost which limits the effectiveness of a spell in other settings. A spell like this would be a boon in a dimension full of chi but lacking PPE, yet you're capping it base magic that needs PPE gets limited so this should too?

It's also not clear that retroactive application of rules is megaversal and not simply dimensional in nature. RUE may override RMB, and PF2nd may override PRPG (even though some characters like the Juggernaught got utterly changed and should really be treated like separate individuals or dimensions) but if there's no replacement then we have no PPE substitute for older systems.

Megaverse builder provides rules for all dimensions, both pre-existing ones adn unbuilt future ones, and it makes it clear PPE is Universally (Well, megaversally) required for magic.

Do you mean 1-20 on pg 14? I'm seeing this as only referring to PPE-powered magic. Multiplying only works if there is a base cost. If it said something like "add an extra 5 PPE to cast any magic spell" then I could see it being a better argument.

the fact that some classes and NPC's get screwed by this without conversions provided dosn't change the fact it's offical, it just means those classes are screwed.

A lack of conversion doesn't make them screwed, we can just use their original stats. We don't always have to use updated stats. Someone doesn't have to upgrade an RMB shifter to a RUE shifter if they don't want to.

if your converting ISP or Chi to PPE to provide the PPE for the spell, then clearly you do need PPE for the spell, which is why you have to convert Chi and ISP into PPE before the spell works.

Except neither the ISP-powered magic or Chi-powered magic mention anything about having to convert into PPE as part of it working. The Chi-Magic spell says "1 PPE or 6 chi". Since the spell itself is needed to change chi into PPE, it could not possible do so prior to the spell taking effect on pure chi alone.

TW items automatically convert ISP and Chi into PPE when infused with them by a psychic or chi master.

I wasn't aware that TW items could be powered by pure chi. This interests me. While I might be able to build a chi magic spell into a TW device (that's a bit of a murky since it differs from spell magic), I'm unclear whether or not (even if that spell was convert chi to PPE) I could use that to activate it with just chi.

the very low PPE needed is provided either by the enchantments on the TW item itself or ambient PPE. the fact we don't have rules for it is kind of irrelevent as that is clearly what's stated to be happening.

I'll need to ferret out some statements about how it talks about ISP powering PPE devices and the conversion and what it means. That was only one hypothetical example to bulk up the argument though. The core of it is based on the existence of spells with purely chi or ISP or (per-day) time-based costs.

I know you really really hate the idea of changing cannon invalidating your previous purchases, but just because you think it really stinks that palladium did it, dosn't mean palladium didn't do it.

Where has Palladium explicitly said the old rules are void? With new characters and new mechanics, the new books are new dimensions.

just because the user of magic need not always provide PPE, and thus have no PPE cost to pay, dosn't mean PPE isn't being used--it's just not being provided by the caster.

Unless there's phrasing that indicates this (and I don't think your Megaverse Builder reference qualifies) we shouldn't assume stuff like that. I mean heck, some OCCs require double PPE to cast certain spells (other classes with Necro magic, Necros with spells not on their list) so it could be that your whole double-PPE thing is more of a "you lose half the PPE you put in, it's harder for you to work spells here" type thing than a "we should assume the environment pays half the PPE cost normally" thing.

Also getting back to the roots here, this began as more of a "creatures need personal PPE to cast magic" issue than a "ultimately PPE factors into the equation" issue.

[Tor]

You've a lot of flawed reasoning there Tor, not the least of which trying to argue that because one spell out of ALL spells doesn't require PPE that spells don't really require PPE when that's clear evidence of the opposite

I think you're misphrasing my argument here. Spells really do require PPE: the ones that say they do. Spells without PPE costs do not require PPE to cast.

especially when that lone spell exists to make PPE available to cast spells.

Do you have a point? There's a lone psionic power in Psyscape (Restore PPE) which costs ISP and produces PPE. If we judged abilities' nature based on what they produce then we would be calling this a magic spell.

I judge abilities based on what they are (Restore PPE is a healing psionic, convert Chi to PPE is a (chi) Magic Spell) and then what they cost speaks for themself. A spell that costs 0 PPE and 6 Chi to cast is an example of directly chi-fueled magic, and that's pretty cool.

chi-magic spells don't run on chi in spite of the name but instead run on PPE (outside of the one exception)

The exception is one of several examples that disprove the assumption that PPE is an essential component of magic.

'The exception proves the rule' means 'as an exception it exists as proof that a particular rule exists', in this case that all magic requires PPE with the lone exception existing only to provide PPE further supporting why it even exists as an exception.

This isn't even an argument. A lot of colloquialisms are not wisdom. Exceptions disprove rules. Exceptions only support assumption rules if they are listed as exceptions, and this is not listed as an exception, just as an option.

The vast majority of physical skills will add SDC. Very few will add HP. That doesn't make any rules, just tendencies.

One also can't reasonably argue that even though all magical items we see are products of manipulating PPE and casting spells either normally or in rituals of some sort that somehow somewhere there are items that aren't produced that way so that's evidence that PPE isn't required to make magic items. That's simply really bad reasoning.

It's not bad reasoning, it's a good argument. My argument is: things cost what they say they cost. I don't invent imaginary costs to things that lack them. I don't invent a PPE creation cost to an Old Believer's magical staff, because there isn't one. If there was supposed to be one, Kevin would have put one there, just like he did with the Kuznya. Instead, it just takes purely time, whereas Kuznya creations take both time AND some PPE.

There is zero evidence to the contrary, all evidence points towards PPE being required to make magic items so all existing evidence says claims that PPE isn't required to make magic items fail due to all existing evidence saying it does.

You don't understand how evidence works here. There are evidence that PPE fuels SOME magic and SOME magic items. Not all of them. The existence of spells and items created without PPE disprove the assumption that it is an inherent requirement. It is just the most common fuel source. Just because most campfires are made with twigs doesn't mean I can't make one outta gasoline.

The misconception is really on your part that you think PPE isn't required for magic when Palladium says it is

Where does it say this in absolute terms? I've been asking for quotes to this effect. How would such a statement (assuming it exists) override evidence in other settings that shows we can create magic without PPE cost? Supposing you can provide such a statement, I would say this would be a dimensional characteristic and not apply to dimensions where we know (at least there) we can do magic without PPE, such as N&SS world, original PRPG world and Mechanoid world.

Palladium standardized its spell-casting system around PPE for the entire megaverse retconning older books that don't include it to make it a requirement.

No, it didn't do that. Books like Conversion Book 1 gave PPE stats to classes like Diabolists and Summoners for when they came to Rifts Earth. Books like PF2nd also gave options to introduce a PPE system (much like they introduce an SDC system). New versions of OCCs in new dimensions do not create megaversal rules.

Which is why in the conversion book those older classes were shown getting a PPE base when traveling to Rifts and being bound by Rifts casting rules.

Yes: in Rifts. This stuff (much like the bonus psionic abilities for BTS classes) is temporary and lost when you go back to your home dimension. It's an effect of Rifts being all PPE-flooded. You have to pay the PPE piper if you want to enhanced magical stuff that happens, like how some Power Circles for Summoners are tripled in range/duration.

If you want to run by the superseded rules you can

Nowhere does it say these rules are superceded. Conversion notes only apply to changes to characters who cross dimensions. 2nd edition rules are new realities, evidenced by changes made to NPCs. Evil Juggernaut was not wiped from existence, this isn't Flashpoint.

but they aren't evidence that magic doesn't require PPE simply evidence of worlds that Palladium hasn't updated (and in the case of older HU books they have been updated/superseded so that mages from HU align with the PPE system they've decided to use everywhere).

HU1st and HU2nd (much like PPRG and PF2nd) are separate realities.

his examples are either wrong (Chi Magic requires PPE not Chi as he seems to think, and he seems to treat the one spell that converts Chi to PPE as if that somehow proves none of the spells require PPE instead of the opposite)

You are strawmanning me here, please stop that. I am aware that all but one of the chi spells have a PPE cost. One of them is purely powerable by Chi which serves as an example of PPEless magic. I never once argued that this spell means that the other spells don't need PPE, that's a lie.

or have flawed foundations (attempting to argue that magic items like Rune Weapons having spells they can cast as 'proof' that not all spells require PPE instead of the more obvious consideration that they're powered by the PPE of their prisoners).

That's a obvious consideration, but not a fact. Some Rune Weapons have PPE pools and others do not. There are other magic items that cast on a purely pure-day rather than a PPE-basis. I'll also note I'm not referring to those which appear to have both limitations (like Fairies) where they cost PPE and have a per-day limitation on top of it.

I can't find any evidence of anything to support his 'well Mutants in Avalon has ISP powered magic' either

Please take care how you paraphrase with your single quotes. Read my original post. I said Mechanoids has ISP-powered magic. I said Mutants in Avalon have magic spells that emulate ISP-less animal psionics. Reading things that deviate so greatly from my post makes me desire less and less to read your rebuttals.

it has the Druid OCC but it's clearly like the Mystic from the Rifts main book where they develop psychic powers as they level but may also have something more spell-like.

That isn't at all what Mutants in Avalon has. It explicitly states they are magical abilities, not psionic ones. Psionic powers can be emulated through non-psionic means, much as the Healer OCC in PRPG does. Magic can also do it, as is clear here, but through a PPE-free system in this case.

That's not an example, that's an exception. The argument isn't 'there are some spells that are exceptions and don't require PPE to cast', but 'well people are confused and you don't really need PPE to cast spells' which is wrong, you do need PPE to cast spells (natural spell-like abilities not being in the same category and therefor not relevant).

"Exceptions" as you put them, ARE examples. Things are only exceptions if they break rules, and no rules requiring PPE for magic (spell or otherwise) have been introduced into this thread yet, still awaiting excerpts which make this an explicit requirement.

You clearly do need PPE to cast spells which say you need PPE. Just like you need Chi to cast spells which say you need Chi. Just like you need SDC to cast spells which say you need SDC. Spell requirements vary, and the presence of a requirement for 1 or more spells does not mean all spells require it or that it's some inherent component of magic no matter where we look in the megaverse.

When you have ONE spell out of hundreds if not thousands that doesn't require PPE

Not sure if we're up to 2000 yet (anyone want to do a BoM tally?) but it's not just the Mystic China spell. There are over a dozen spells in the Mechanoids book, not to mention examples of all your hundreds of spells being cast without PPE.

it's ONLY purpose is to convert an existing energy INTO PPE then the conclusion one would have to make is that 'spells require PPE to function', not 'well they don't really need it' because NO spell outside of that exception can be cast without PPE from somewhere.

The purpose of the spell is not relevant to the truth of mechanics it illustrates. What you are observing is a tendency, not a rule. Spells tend not to have HP/SDC costs, but that doesn't mean ALL spells lack such costs. Making golems clearly requires one or the other.

Even Celestial Calligraphy requires you to place the PPE into the spell paper during crafting, or hope that whoever burns it has enough PPE to fuel the spell.

Not if you make Celestial Calligraphy of Convert Chi to PPE. Then you can either put chi into it or rely upon a person's chi to power it. Same with Vajras.

Palladium can hardly be expected to go through every setting particularly those that just aren't updated or seeing more work in anymore to bring them in line with the full megaversal setting.

Considering that Mechanoids did see work (they were imported into Sourcebook 1) it WAS seeing work. Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy was also printed AFTER Rifts. Kevin even notes in the section about ISP magic that he invented ISP magic prior to deciding to make future magic powered by PPE.

He could have changed it, but he did not, he left it as is.

Phase Powers are also an example of magic (being that the Phase Mystic is classified as a Magical OCC in Book of Magic) powered by ISP. As we know, mystics tend to have a mix of magical and psionic abilities. Notice how Prometheans can exchange secondary skills for Temporal Magic or Phase Powers? It's almost as if they were interchangeable.

The validity of the argument has been disputed repeatedly, it hasn't been actually validated.

The disputes have been groundless. The argument is valid that we don't need PPE to use magic because examples have been provided of magic that does not use PPE.

If you want to make a case for magic requiring PPE absolutely to disprove this argument, the burden of proof is on you, and it has not been provided.

as the ambient PPE levels get lower it becomes harder to cast magic and it becomes more expensive in PPE. Which only makes sense if all spells rely somewhat on the PPE in the environment to power them.

Actually, what really happens is that PPE-based magic costs more, and PPE becomes harder to regenerate.

It doesn't become harder to cast magic, nor does it become more expensive, if the magic energy comes from a non-PPE source. So the Dimension Book reference fails.

[Tor]

The rules now are set up as a cost system, regardless of what they once were. You have PPE to pay the cost of the spells which list a PPE cost. All of the spells in the system are set up this way now.

I agree that spells are generally set up in a cost system. They always have been. But I do not agree that you have to pay PPE to create magic. Not all of the spells are set up this way, you are simply wrong.

Mechanoid ISP magic is still in the system. Chi magic is still in the system. Per-day casters/items are still in the system. There are costs, but they are from different pools than PPE sometimes.

Rifts Conversion Book One PG 102:

"Unlike normal magic which burns P.P.E., faerie folk can weave their magic endlessly, without exhausting their own natural P.P.E.! These little trouble makers can cast spells all night long, up to three times per melee. However, faerie magic does have its limitations and conditions."

I seem to have forgotten this detail, since I read CB1 so long ago, thanks for bringing it up. For some reason I had thought that fairies did use their massive PPE base to cast the magic or had some kinda per-day limit.

I am now terrified...

At least they have that 'same spell only once per victim per day' limit. Still, that just means you'd have to mix up the opponents...

But that only applies to stuff that target victims. Self spells, and presumably non-self but non-victim spells (a brownie's mend wood & animate objects jumps out) could just be done indefinitely...

With a couple brownies you could essentially put all wood repair shops out of business!

The Island at the Edge of the World also has the "Life Force Mage" who can cast spells without PPE - they use life points, stolen from the hit points of others.

Cool example, not as familiar with that book so it didn't come to mind when pondering this.

That was under 1st Ed rules. The update in PFRPG WB10 says the excess HP convert to PPE.

Different versions of a similarly-named OCC, much like we have a wizard in PF and a wizard in HU and a wizard in TMNT. Clearly the magic of Life Force functions a bit differently in these separate incarnations of the Palladium World.

Another example of this is the Spirit Warrior OCC from Wayne Breaux's Spirit West. They can use ISP-based "spirit fire".

If you're referring to the Fire Realm "Breathe Fire" ability, that magical spirit fire has no PPE or ISP cost. That qualifies as an example of a magical ability that doesn't require PPE, which is basically equivalent to using dragons as an example.

The only reference I've seen to using ISP to create magical flame is the Zaayr Crystal Dragon.

You might be memory-mixing with the Spirit Warrior's Pyrokinesis ability, but that substitutes PPE for ISP costs.

Fairies cast their racial magic from PPE from the enviroment. So while they do not expend their personal PPE, they do expend PPE when making their magic.

Source?

J.J. you should not get tunnel vision when trying to find things in a PB book. You might miss what is just a few lines above or below the section you think the text you are looking for should be found in.

4. PPE: 1d6x100 plus can automatically draw on the PPE around them,...

You're misinterpreting this. Fairies can draw on ambient PPE to restore their PPE pool so that they can use some abilities which do require PPE, like the fairy's dance ritual. Their actual racial spellcasting abilities are not mentioned as utilizing ambient PPE. Since there is a more likely explanation (the fairy's dance, which has a PPE cost) there is no reason to extend this statement to indicate their racial powers.

If their racial spellcasting did draw on ambient PPE this would logically deplete the surrounding area of it, which happens in other instances when wizards or shamans draw on the PPE of animals or plants, or when a mirror mage draws on the mirrorwall.

Also an interesting thing to note: while it does require a permanent PPE cost up front, astral realms can be formed which allow time-based instead of PPE-based casting.

My only point is that it is not stated directly, and beings that faeries have their own set of rules and regulations that are written it is (in my opinion) folly to assume that they follow the standard magic formula... Faeries are different.

I have to agree with this, if we're talking about Faerie magic. It is completely different than regular typical mage magic.

They are different, but it is still magic. It's completely fine to say that regularly magic uses PPE, as the vast majority of magic in Palladium now does. Mechanoid magic, Chi magic, Life Force magic, spell-per-day magic, even if we combined all these examples they'd still probably be in a rare minority compared to the vast majority of magic that costs PPE.

But it does show that PPE is simply the trend and not the absolute rule. No amount of Crises can change that.

PPE was first introduced in Rifts not BTS.

BtS 1st ed came out in 1987, Rifts 1st ed came out in 1990, so Nek was right about it introducing PPE AFAIK.

Retcon is like the 2 for living rule for PF, where they will toss it in later and say "we are going to pretend this was here all along. Fix your older stuff". PPE is an update from one edition to the next, a version change, not a retcon.

I'm having trouble understanding the difference here. Isn't the 2 for living thing not applied to N&SS? I think Kev was so scared by the APM from stuff like Thai Kickboxing that he overlooked that most forms have fewer APM than monsters like MA/assassin.

Adding a PPE system seems like adding an SDC system. We could call it a retcon if we perceive it as altering an existing universe, or simply a new dimension/system if it's just creating a new one. An update or version change could be perceived as doing either.

they do not "cast spells', they 'make magic'. (yes, there is a difference. And I am only talking about the racial magic, not any magic they may have "learned". Which would be spell magic.)

Fairies can't learn other forms of magic, it says this explicitly under their racial abilities.

While phrasing like 'spin magic' is used, other language makes it clear this IS spell magic. Pg 102 of CB1 mentions them having a "spell strength" of a 10th level wizard, and it also says "can CAST SPELLS all night long". So how can you say fairies do not "cast spells" when it explicitly uses that phrasing for them?

as I see it the pointed out automatic drawing of ambient PPE was put into the stats was to explain H.T.F. they can make magic without using their own PPE reserves and thus can make magic all day long w/o running into a "ran out of PPE" limit. This 'limitless' making magic is in the PF1 book in very much the same text as appears in the RCB1,RCB1r, and PF:M&A.

Naw that's just to explain that they can tap ley lines and stuff to make their fairy dance circles.

"my claim" in these posts from multiple users pointing out that he was using obsolete books, half-rules, things that require conversions, etc etc etc. Yup. All "my claims. From multiple users. Obviously.

Where does it say these books are obsolete and not part of the Megaverse? The worlds of the Mechanoids and of Ninjas & Superspies are explicitly connected with Rifts. The Mechanoids invaded in SB1 and a N&SS NPC with Chi is in Mercenaries.

Though I hate that a world must be connected to Rifts to support the idea that it is "not obsolete", I do so since that seems the easiest way of showing it.

The burden shouldn't be on us to show a book 'not obsolete' though, so much as it should be on others to prove that a book IS obsolete. To say second editions do that is stretch enough, but PPE/SDC systems being added to 2nd editions of HU/PF does not mean we should ignore statistics and rules in settings which still use them.

Rifts Japan and China have converted martial arts powers from chi to PPE or ISP. Does that invalidate the chi system these abilities previously existed under? Heck no. They're just DIFFERENT ways to access the results. New causes to produce the same effect do not negate previous causes.

he's using outdated books from previous editions (whether or not that specific book has been updated or not, or if that license is GONE is moot), he's using half-rules, ignoring parts about conversions, etc.

A book is not a "previous edition" just because it hasn't been given a second edition. Whether or not there has been a second edition is NOT a moot point. The license for After the Bomb is not gone. The license for Ninjas and Superspies is not gone. The license for Mechanoids is not gone.

Not only does Palladium hold all three licenses, but if it wanted to change the way magic worked in these books, Kevin could have done so. He explicitly chose not to when giving conversion notes for N&SS/AtB in CB1, and he explicitly chose not to when compiling Mechanoid Trilogy. That's evidence that it stands, even though the argument that absence of evidence means we should assume irrelevancy, which it doesn't.

The obsolete ruling came from some of the Books having a revised and/or 2nd ed version of them. Like Rifts Sourcebook 1, or the PFRPG.

Rifts Sourcebook 1 does not address the Mages who cast magic using ISP who are described in the Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy. Mechanoids themselves are psionics who create psionic effects using ISP. They weren't changed in this regard. There has been no 2nd Ed of MIT or MC.

Megaverse Builder states that with No P.P.E. in the verse being built, no magic. I've personally haven't confirmed that one.

Oh, have you now? Page number? I may be missing something besides the "No Magic Energy" option on page 14, which I've disproven. Enlighten me, please.

No Magic Energy:

So, there is a dimension where no magic energy exists. Yet, a mage (who is obviously on vacation) is considering whether to cast a spell in this dimension. He arrived by space ship because he couldn’t get there under his own power…In other words a very lame place…

Now in adventuring though this hollowed Potential-less, Psychic-less, Energy-less place, he begins to realize his peril and the immediate danger he might be in, should he encounter any unfriendly creatures. Just as he is thinking this, such a creature appears before him.

However, this mage (while at first thinking he wishes to cast a spell) is no ordinary mage and his name is: One-Sharp-Spellslinger and Minor Psychic (yep that’s his name). Luckily in world without magic energy, animal life is remarkably stupid and slow. So as this creature meanders closer, like a drunken sailor with bad intent…In other words moves in for the attack. The mage has enough time to decide not to cast a spell at all. (Eurika!) but to charge his TW Spitefire revolver (BoM: 324) with P.P.E? No-no-no.. but with I.S.P.

Being a the weapon can be charged with I.S.P. and there is no P.P.E. Clip and the weapon fires a mini-fireball-which I believe should follow the condition of a magical effect….

That’s it I win…I’m winner…nah-nah-nah-muhahahahaha!!!!

Edit R:UE PG131 #6: I lose! It does say can be powered by I.S.P.; but says a TW device runs on Magic Energy-not just energy-or P.P.E. and I.S.P., but Magic Energy; hence there is a conversion that happens.

I do not stand corrected! I am going to have a seat instead-

You don't lose at all sir, your example is quite applicable. It stands to reason that PPE energy is NOT magic energy, but rather, that PPE is one of several (and the most common) sources of energy which powers magic.

We know it is not 'magic energy' because everyone has PPE (including non-magical beings), and PPE can be used to create non-magic as well.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The rules now are set up as a cost system, regardless of what they once were. You have PPE to pay the cost of the spells which list a PPE cost. All of the spells in the system are set up this way now.

I agree that spells are generally set up in a cost system. They always have been. But I do not agree that you have to pay PPE to create magic. Not all of the spells are set up this way, you are simply wrong.

Mechanoid ISP magic is still in the system. Chi magic is still in the system. Per-day casters/items are still in the system. There are costs, but they are from different pools than PPE sometimes.

ISP is generally accepted to be the result of converting PPE to create it. The same could be said of chi. You still have to be in a world with ambient PPE and PPE converted into something to cast spells. Per day casters are being done away with due to the system being too much like D&D which goes by the per day system.

[Tor]

older replies:

The dimension builder book states that magic effects and costs are affected by how much PPE is available, therefore making PPE necessary for magic to occur

Please provide a quote supporting this. RDB7:Megaverse Builder Pg 14 only mentions that PPE costs are doubled and it takes double the time to recover. Where does it mention magic effects are affected?

whether the mage actually uses their own PPE or that in the environment to cast it, or whether a race of creatures casts automatically.

Source?

PPE is necessary. Casting using HP, ISP or Chi is still reliant on the existence of PPE and the ability to convert these things to PPE.

Source?

It does not invalidate PPE nor make magic possible without its presence.

It does, because PPE is not mentioned as a necessity to cast the forms of magic given in the examples. Nor have you provided book text supporting that assumption. The Dimension Book statement I've found only modifies the PPE system, it doesn't blanket the PPE system on all magic. Is there somewhere besides page 14 I should be looking? Help a bro out.

I cannot quote a specific page due to not having ready access to the book in question, which is the Megaverse Builder. All I know is that magic depends on their being a certain level of PPE in the environment.

I suggest not assuming you know what a book says unless you have it in front of you. I often mis-remember books and find my assumptions corrected upon reading more closely. The Megaverse Builder doesn't say this, at least not on page 14 which describes what people seem to be discussing.

- - -
reply to recent:

ISP is generally accepted to be the result of converting PPE to create it. The same could be said of chi.

Anything could be said to be "generally accepted". But many things generally accepted are mistakes. People often generally accept false assumptions about how rules work, or what the laws of nature or society are. While people could "say" we should assume chi is converted to PPE to create magical effects, that's not supported by the rules, and actually contrary to what the rules imply.

Converting chi to PPE is the unique realm of a spell specifically designed to do that. Or a racial ability unique to infernals which emulates the effects of that spell (presumably without an initiation cost?). If chi was simply converted to PPE as part of the nature of magic, then ALL the chi magic spells could be powered solely by PPE instead of magic.

They can't be though. Only one specific spell can be powered purely by chi. It is a spell designed to convert chi, because other spells cannot be powered by raw chi like this one can, because conversion of chi to PPE is not an inherent part of chi magic.

You still have to be in a world with ambient PPE and PPE converted into something to cast spells.

Source?

Per day casters are being done away with due to the system being too much like D&D which goes by the per day system.

True, but doing away with a certain setups doesn't replace the old setups. Systems like Rifts and Nightbane are (via OCCs) could be described as "doing away with" non-OCC systems like TMNT and Heroes Unlimited. But non-OCC systems still exist, just as non-PPE systems still exist.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I would suggest contacting the author of said material and asking them whether PPE is intended to represent ambient magic, as I take it to mean by it being Potential Psychic Energy, the potential to bring forth psychic effects, which I interpret magic to be. As I and the others here can only interpret what is meant, then it becomes necessary to ask the book creators what is meant.

[MADMANMIKE]

PPE wasn't invented until Beyond the Supernatural, but it has sense been retconned as being megaversally required. just because they could use it without a mechanic that didn't exist at the time of it's printing dosn't mean they can now.

Your arguments are flawed because it rests on obsolete rules that no longer apply.

It doesnt help your own argument when what you say is wrong. PPE was first introduced in Rifts not BTS.

And how about letting the guy present his ideas instead of dogpilling on him.

Actually she's right, Beyond the Supernatural was the first incarnation of the P.P.E. system, circa 1988...

Tor, this is very simple. If you are the GM of your game, you have license to do whatever you want. If you are the player in your game, whatever the GM says goes. That's the foundation of every RPG.

Clearly you have decided how you want the game to be and seem only interested in 'debating' people who disagree with you. I would suggest all parties agree to disagree and move on, life is too short to beat our heads against rock walls..

[Subjugator]

Given that the megaversal rules are universally compatible (unless a specific exception is given), when new rules are introduced, they are populated throughout the megaverse.

While there is no evidence to suggest that PPE is not required for spellcasting, there is ample evidence to show that it need not be provided by the caster of the spell. Under current canon, that is *all* that is shown.

/Sub

[Tor]

I would suggest contacting the author of said material and asking them whether PPE is intended to represent ambient magic, as I take it to mean by it being Potential Psychic Energy, the potential to bring forth psychic effects, which I interpret magic to be. As I and the others here can only interpret what is meant, then it becomes necessary to ask the book creators what is meant.

I don't care what is meant, I care what the rules say. Any information added outside of the books is potentially a rules change, which is fine. I'm not sure magic is psychic effects though, though the 'psychic' in PPE does confuse that issue. "Inner strength" actually sounds a lot more magical to me. *shrug*

If you are the GM of your game, you have license to do whatever you want.

We're discussing what is canon in the rules, I think we're all well aware of the ability of GMs to change rules. This isn't about "my game" as you put it. I request you not try to personalize this.

If you are the player in your game, whatever the GM says goes. That's the foundation of every RPG.

I don't agree, I think games can still work even when players stand up to GMs about issues.

Clearly you have decided how you want the game to be and seem only interested in 'debating' people who disagree with you.

I haven't brought how I 'want' the game to be into this. This is about how the game IS to me. I build that vision based on how the game seems described.

What others' interests 'seem' to be to you isn't relevant to this discussion.

I would suggest all parties agree to disagree and move on, life is too short to beat our heads against rock walls..

I find discussion of the language of rules fun. I expect some others do also. If they do not, they would not come here or stay in such a discussion. I don't think any party needs parenting by interlopers who tell them what to do with their time.

Given that the megaversal rules are universally compatible (unless a specific exception is given), when new rules are introduced, they are populated throughout the megaverse.

Cept for the 2 attacks, because Kev hates ninjas.

While there is no evidence to suggest that PPE is not required for spellcasting, there is ample evidence to show that it need not be provided by the caster of the spell. Under current canon, that is *all* that is shown.

A lack of evidence suggests there not being such a rule. If a spell can lack a PPE cost, then PPE costs are (common) variables of spells, just like blood sacrifice or candles.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Given that the megaversal rules are universally compatible (unless a specific exception is given), when new rules are introduced, they are populated throughout the megaverse.

...snip

No the rules are not universally compatible. Therefor, the settings sets of canon rules are insulated from each other.
The only rules that leak into a setting are those that each individual GM imports to the setting for his/her own games.

[Tor]

There is sort of a suggested friendly "rules are interchangeable until they clash with one another" sort of feeling given by the megaversal system though, eh drew?

It'd probably be interesting to compile a list of rules conflicts between settings. Even if we limit to excluding 1st eds and only 2nd eds we'd prob get some.

The dodge-lending allowed in RUE is something that comes to mind which I don't recall from HU2 yet I guess doesn't outright conflict with it since it just adds options as opposed to nullifying existing ones.

[Subjugator]

Given that the megaversal rules are universally compatible (unless a specific exception is given), when new rules are introduced, they are populated throughout the megaverse.

...snip

No the rules are not universally compatible. Therefor, the settings sets of canon rules are insulated from each other.
The only rules that leak into a setting are those that each individual GM imports to the setting for his/her own games.

If you address my ENTIRE statement, then it is a true statement. When you ignore the parenthetical phrase, it changes the meaning of the entire statement.

Thanks for playing,

Dennis

[drewkitty ~..~]

Given that the megaversal rules are universally compatible (unless a specific exception is given), when new rules are introduced, they are populated throughout the megaverse.

...snip

No the rules are not universally compatible. Therefor, the settings sets of canon rules are insulated from each other.
The only rules that leak into a setting are those that each individual GM imports to the setting for his/her own games.

If you address my ENTIRE statement, then it is a true statement. When you ignore the parenthetical phrase, it changes the meaning of the entire statement.

Thanks for playing,

Dennis

Rifters (players who only play Rifts) insist that no rules from other settings are applicable in rifts because that would mean they would have to 'get books from the other settings'.
Thus the reverse must be true also, that no rifts rules apply to the other settings because of the stupidness in rifts' rules.

Therefore, the generalized rule is that all settings' rules sets are separate except for what the individual GM's import into their games.

[Subjugator]

Rifters (players who only play Rifts) insist that no rules from other settings are applicable in rifts because that would mean they would have to 'get books from the other settings'.
Thus the reverse must be true also, that no rifts rules apply to the other settings because of the stupidness in rifts' rules.

Therefore, the generalized rule is that all settings' rules sets are separate except for what the individual GM's import into their games.

The claim you cite is false in both directions. The generalized rule is that it is a megaversal setting. The owner of the company has said so. Is that insufficient for you? I don't often bring him into such things, but he's said this before...more than once and in public.

Criminy.

/Sub

[Goliath Strongarm]

Rifters (players who only play Rifts) insist that no rules from other settings are applicable in rifts because that would mean they would have to 'get books from the other settings'.
Thus the reverse must be true also, that no rifts rules apply to the other settings because of the stupidness in rifts' rules.

Therefore, the generalized rule is that all settings' rules sets are separate except for what the individual GM's import into their games.

The claim you cite is false in both directions. The generalized rule is that it is a megaversal setting. The owner of the company has said so. Is that insufficient for you? I don't often bring him into such things, but he's said this before...more than once and in public.

Criminy.

/Sub

And the fact that many rules are published in only one setting has made him look like a jack*** for it. Not everyone plays every setting. That being said, since not every rule is published in every setting, it's not exactly as megaversal as it's made out to be. And we're not talking about just things that don't need to be published in other settings (PF doesn't need rules for laser weapons or nukes, for example), but, things like the "2 for living" still hasn't been published in a PF book- but we're supposed to act like it has. The magic under water rules were never published for PF (unless they finally appeared in MoM, I'm not sure), but they're often argued as if they're gospel. Deities are different. Hell, there are skills that have different percentages in some of the different settings (I don't remember which ones, but it's an argument that came up before).

The "megaversal" aspect grew out of it a long time ago, and either needs to be abandoned, or brought back.

Warning: Criticism is fine, but name calling and profanity aren't.