Staffing Problem

[KillWatch]

Ok so I ran into a problem last night.
Two individuals are fighting. One is armed with a staff. The other is unarmed.
The unarmed fellow wants to grab the staff. What is the appropriate defense for this?
Parrying? Aren't you just giving the weapon to the opponent?
have any of you been in a similar situation, on either side of the screen? what happened?

[Goliath Strongarm]

Yes, I've Role played one person wanting the staff/weapon of another. The appropriate defense of your example is to parry. IMO

If he's going to actually try to grab it, no, that's not a parry. Try using a disarm instead. It's much more applicable to the situation. A parry is a simple deflect, and that's IT.

[Noon]

I'm not sure disarm has great rules for it, but that's about as close as the ruleset has.

[flatline]

This is where the Palladium's rigid idea of combat fails.

In real life, a parry is just another kind of strike. The line, angle, and intent of the strike is different from a more offensive strike, but it's a strike nonetheless. If you try to grab my staff, I'll either "parry" your hand by smashing it or I'll move the staff to evade your grasp and smash some other part of you.

The advantage that an armed opponent has over an unarmed opponent is tremendous and I've never seen RPG rules that handle it realistically. It never ceases to amaze me that people think an unarmed opponent stands a chance against an armed opponent without using some sort of special tactics.

--flatline

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

If A has the staff and is on defense.
Then B has NO staff and is on offense. (let's also give B initiative for the heck of it)

B wants the staff from A.

B rolls to disarm

A can Parry by using the staff to knock B's hand out of the way. (I'd reduce the bonus because it
sounds like an instance where you're hitting a small moving target,)

A can Parry by using the staff to knock B out of the way. (I would not count this as a parry, but as a simultaneous strike. If A wins the roll, then he has successfully distracted B from the disarm attempt by hitting him)

A can Dodge by either moving the staff or his whole person out of the disarm strike path. (to me this sounds most realistic)

[Goliath Strongarm]

Yes, I've Role played one person wanting the staff/weapon of another. The appropriate defense of your example is to parry. IMO

If he's going to actually try to grab it, no, that's not a parry. Try using a disarm instead. It's much more applicable to the situation. A parry is a simple deflect, and that's IT.

You're confused.

The appropriate defense from someone trying to grab a weapon in your hands is to parry.
The person attempting to grab the weapon would be attempting to disarm.

We don't disagree.

And going back to re-read it, you're correct, sorry.. I had misread it before. I had thought the original question was in regards to the person going FOR the staff.

The hazards of trying to concentrate with a toddler around.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Yes, I've Role played one person wanting the staff/weapon of another. The appropriate defense of your example is to parry. IMO

If he's going to actually try to grab it, no, that's not a parry. Try using a disarm instead. It's much more applicable to the situation. A parry is a simple deflect, and that's IT.

You're confused.

The appropriate defense from someone trying to grab a weapon in your hands is to parry.
The person attempting to grab the weapon would be attempting to disarm.

We don't disagree.

And going back to re-read it, you're correct, sorry.. I had misread it before. I had thought the original question was in regards to the person going FOR the staff.

The hazards of trying to concentrate with a toddler around.

It's NP I've done worse.
Besides that, most often we don't agree-

Eh, I usually don't look at who says it until after I've formed at least a rough outline of my response in my head, or unless my brain goes "who the hell thinks that idiotic crap?!". I try not to let WHO says something color my opinion of WHAT is said- there have been times that some posters I really don't like have made posts that I completely agreed with, and times that people I get along with famously have said things that I looked at and said "how could they be so stupid?"

So, agreement or disagreement isn't based who said it.

Back on topic, yeah, to counter a disarm (of this type) would be a parry.

[Glistam]

Disarm doesn't give you the weapon, it just knocks it from the wielder's hands. It sounds to me like an entangle would be the appropriate move here. There's no defense because entangle is the defending character's defense.

[The Beast]

Disarm doesn't give you the weapon, it just knocks it from the wielder's hands. It sounds to me like an entangle would be the appropriate move here. There's no defense because entangle is the defending character's defense.

This.

[KillWatch]

so I looked into this a bit more and the end all of hand to hand combat N&SS has a GRAB v Parry and Entangle v Strike

[The Dark Elf]

Entangle. You are entangling the wepaon with your hands.

Incidentally, being trained on staff fighting it is really hard and hurts when you attempt to grab a staff that a TRAINED professional is using to hit you with. Remember they are trained to not let you grab it.

[KillWatch]

and what if they are both trained

[MaxxSterling]

It's simple. Just look at the guy trying to grab it and say. You can't do that.

[Akashic Soldier]

Its really simple, this is a "disarm", the player is disarming the staff by grabbing hold of it. The same way some monks grab the flat of a blade between their hands to disarm it. Simply roll a normal disarm attack. If the attacking character is successful than the attacker rips the weapon from the defender's hands. To recover the staff, the attacker must run and collect the staff (if it was tossed away as is standard) as normal.

Alternatively, if the attacker wishes to keep hold of the weapon it is a simple Entangle attack (the same way someone with W.P. Forked can use a Sai to catch a sword). If the attacking character is successful than they were able to grab the staff and keep it stationary and useless until they can break the "entangle" to recover the weapon as normal. Acquiring the entangled weapon would then require the attacker disarm the defender. Because the weapon is entangled, it cannot be thrown away and so the attacker twirls the staff around and poises themselves ready to counterattack with the staff. However, it should be pointed out this strategy is difficult to achieve (disarm and entangle aren't always easy to pull off!).

However, if the defender succeeds. There a few possibilities, perhaps the attacker grabs the staff they are not able to keep the grip of said weapon or the defender's training prevents it from being grabbed in the first place. I would leave that in the hands of the player. However it would still require a successful parry/dodge roll (Dodge = Its too fast, you can't grab it! Parry = You cannot grip it, your attack was intercepted/disrupted/broken!).

Hope this has helped.

[The Beast]

Its really simple, this is a "disarm", the player is disarming the staff by grabbing hold of it.

Incorrect. A Disarm move results in the weapon being knocked away from both the wielder's and the opponet's control. Entangle is what you use when you're trying to trap the weapon or arm of an attacker.

[flatline]

Its really simple, this is a "disarm", the player is disarming the staff by grabbing hold of it. The same way some monks grab the flat of a blade between their hands to disarm it.

You say that like it's actually possible.

Sure, there are those who might actually believe that they can do such things, but these people are as deluded as the Chinese Tai Chi practitioners in WWII who were convinced that they could yield to a bullet without being harmed.

If Mythbusters hasn't already looked into the whole catching a sword myth by now, they should. It would be the perfect excuse to build yet another robot.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

You say that like it's actually possible.

*puts his hand on his face*

Its a magical fantasy game with Wizards, Psychics, and more importantly supernatural Martial Arts who can do anything we see in any Hollywood film. C'mon, next you'll be telling me that you can't dodge bullets. Yeah its hard (-10 penalty at close range) but it can still be done. People can't do that in real life either. Its a GAME, not an experiment in physics.

Incorrect. A Disarm move results in the weapon being knocked away from both the wielder's and the opponet's control. Entangle is what you use when you're trying to trap the weapon or arm of an attacker.

Read my entire post. I say, if you want to "grab" the weapon. Simply entangle it (grab) and then disarm your opponent. Because the weapon is still entangled (and you are holding it) than theoretically you wouldn't need to throw it away (because you are still holding it because the entangle was never broken).

Please, before you tell me I am wrong read my entire post.

[The Beast]

Incorrect. A Disarm move results in the weapon being knocked away from both the wielder's and the opponet's control. Entangle is what you use when you're trying to trap the weapon or arm of an attacker.

Read my entire post. I say, if you want to "grab" the weapon. Simply entangle it (grab) and then disarm your opponent. Because the weapon is still entangled (and you are holding it) than theoretically you wouldn't need to throw it away (because you are still holding it because the entangle was never broken).

Please, before you tell me I am wrong read my entire post.

You are wrong though. KillWatch was clearly asking about grabbing the weapon in his OP, which you called a disarm. That's not Disarm, that's Entangle.

[Akashic Soldier]

You are wrong though. KillWatch was clearly asking about grabbing the weapon in his OP, which you called a disarm. That's not Disarm, that's Entangle.

Seriously, read my post. :\

I believe that to acquire the weapon from the hand of an opponent (as stated above, twice now) you must...

#1 Entangle the weapon (grabbing it) with one action.

Then...

#2 Disarm the weapon so you can take it from their hands while it is "entangled" (grabbed).

Entangle does not allow you to arm yourself with their weapon, it simply prevents them from using it. Disarming does not normally allow you to arm yourself with the weapon. However, if you disarm an entangled weapon, I see no reason that the person entangling it cannot arm themselves with it. That is my interpretation.

Logic is as follows:
Entangled (grabbed weapon) weapon is being held by both characters.
A following successful disarm removes the item from the defenders grip.
The weapon is now no longer under the control of the defender but remains "entangled" by the attacker.
The attacker (who is still gripping the weapon) is no longer restricting the attack of the defender and (since the staff is in their hands alone now) and may seize and wield the staff for themselves.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Flatline- they did, way back in season 5. It was busted. If you have things like the tiger claws on, it is possible. But bare handed? Sword catching doesn't happen outside of movies. We are agreed.

[flatline]

Flatline- they did, way back in season 5. It was busted. If you have things like the tiger claws on, it is possible. But bare handed? Sword catching doesn't happen outside of movies. We are agreed.

Did they build a robot to do it?

--flatline

[Goliath Strongarm]

Flatline- they did, way back in season 5. It was busted. If you have things like the tiger claws on, it is possible. But bare handed? Sword catching doesn't happen outside of movies. We are agreed.

Did they build a robot to do it?

--flatline

They did. And did a few modifications to try it. 4 tries, I think. And then had a martial arts professional show that the only way to actually do it was with tiger claws on his hand.

And JL- it may not be "canon", but, it's definately a good demonstration of what is within the realms of functionality. Such as my personal favorite the next time I'm playing a fantasy game where the GM has brought in gun powder. I'm going to use the cheese wheels as replacements for cannonballs (saving it for the right moment of course).

More than once, I have done some crazy stuff in games, and when GMs tell me "that just is NOT possible", "yes, yes it is. Here's proof". I don't do that with my low IQ characters, only the ones that actually CAN think of that kind of stuff, and figure it out- both the IQ and the skills. But, when they have the ability, damn right I'm willing to use Mythbusters to prove that something is or is not possible.

And the best GMs I've had as a player have used it back against it. And when I'm a GM, the best players have used it back against me as well.

[Goliath Strongarm]

A fantasy campaign… And yet your “character” has seen Myth Busters?

Interesting…

No, me as a player has, and when I have a character who can figure something out, and the GM tells me something won't work, *I* as a player, will use Mythbusters as a factchecker to say "sure will- and here's the field tests. Of course, my character will do field tests of his own, but, it WILL work. Completely workable. And my character DOES have the IQ and skills to have figured it out, just as the real world person did in year XXXX"

[The Dark Elf]

Incorrect. A Disarm move results in the weapon being knocked away from both the wielder's and the opponet's control. Entangle is what you use when you're trying to trap the weapon or arm of an attacker.

Read my entire post. I say, if you want to "grab" the weapon. Simply entangle it (grab) and disarm your opponent. Because the weapon is still entangled (and you are holding it) than theoretically you wouldn't need to throw it away (because you are still holding it because the entangle was never broken).

Please, before you tell me I am wrong read my entire post.

You are wrong though. KillWatch was clearly asking about grabbing the weapon in his OP, which you called a disarm. That's not Disarm, that's Entangle.

Right. Disarm knocks the weapon to the ground.
Keeping the weapon unusable is an entangle.

(Most) Staff fighting does not include letting go of your own weapon to grab your opponents. In my experience its about beating the crap out of them with your staff! ;0)

[KillWatch]

but again according to N&SS;
Entangle and Disarm are defensive maneuvers
Grab is an attack, and that is what was happening

[The Dark Elf]

but again according to N&SS;
Entangle and Disarm are defensive maneuvers
Grab is an attack, and that is what was happening

I did mean using it as a defense but I had to look this up as I was like "no! entangle can be an attack too surely?!" However-

All bow to Killwatch - he's spot on!

GRAB ATTACK: Anybody, during their melee attack/action, can
attempt to grab just about anything in reach. Attempting a Grab
always takes a melee action. The target of a Grab can be a weapon,
somebody's hand, or any item laying around. The defender, whoever
is holding it, can attempt to hold onto it with a Parry, Dodge, or
with an escape move.
Grabbing flying objects, especially incoming missiles like daggers
and arrows, is more difficult. First, the attack must be Parried (Dodging
means avoiding the projectile altogether). If the Parry is successful,
then the character can attempt to grab the projectile. Grabbing
hand-tossed objects requires a Strike Roll of 10 or better (yes, character
bonuses are allowed). Grabbing objects fired by a device like a
bow, crossbow or sling will require a Strike Roll of 14 or better
(again, the character's bonuses to strike/grab are allowed). Projectiles
fired from any kind of gun can NOT be grabbed.

But in PFRPG there is no grab attack listed. Whatever the game line Id implement the grab attack rules above as they suit your needs.