Making the Alpha a decent mecha is easy…

[ShadowLogan]

None of which really matter, because we can point to canon statements that indicate a VF-1 is perfectly able to get into low Earth orbit unassisted, while later fighters can't even chart a suborbital course. That's a clear cut and indisputable example of the VF-1 having superior performance. Latitude and so on are not mentioned as any kind of restriction in Robotech or the OSM.

Actually it does matter. That it isn't mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist in Robotech. One seldom sees a given launch system described that way in general descriptions (and the RT descriptions are general). It also explains the need for the Booster unit for the VF-1 in the two examples cited previously.

And the Beta is shown to have superior performance to the VF-1 in this area, it punches clear into space and to the Moon (which requires more velocity than a low orbit velocity) all while carrying an Alpha.

Per canon, those boosters are used to reach space quickly and/or leave orbit. Try again.

No, RT.com Infopedia states: "Various booster and armor systems were devised to extend its range and/or combat performance." (which is basically the reasons given for the Beta..

That tosses out the "reach space quickly" aspect for the VF-1. That it would allow it greater range is not in doubt since it could conserve its native capacity. That it needs assistance to extend the Operational range, would point to limitations with the ability to launch as seen in the (near) Polar Orbiting ARMD in FTS. From a range perspective that is much more demanding than LEO to an altitude of 100miles w/low inclination even if the Polar orbit is at the same altitude.

If launch requirements in TRM saga though are similar to the VF-1 in FTS, and the VFs there where designed to match the baseline VF, they would need to catch a ride (either Booster or Shuttle or Ship). The same can hold true of the Alpha.

[Alrik Vas]

I don't understand your statement. You are saying it "can" be true for the Alpha, but not even you seem to know for certain. It all seems like assertation, not really anything so concrete.

It's clear the Alpha isn't a box of junk, mostly it's a doctrine issue with the UEEF and their training. If they still had VF-1's or if the Beta had legios-link-launchable MRM/LRM reaction missiles, things would be totally different...or, if maybe the UEEF ships could supply these strikes before their fighters engage...but whatever. The alpha seems less maneuverable and slower, but like many have pointed out, considering it's original design intent, those aren't weaknesses, it is a missile barrage strike fighter, and it does that well, ESPECIALLY with a Beta attached. The main issue is it needs that first strike, which though some are arguing it has MRM's, the offical stats don't support that. With the Beta, it has the thrust it needs to strike and escape, but even that puts it in danger.

So, improve Alpha weaponry ranges, and it's suddenly good, perhaps even successful.

Achieving low ordbit doesn't seem to be something the source material agrees with, regardless.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Here's comparable information from the Alpha:

The fighter is fully space-capable, and is carried in great numbers on the Ikazuchi-class cruiser. However, the limited fuel tankage of this craft gives it short legs in space, a deficiency that led to the development of the Beta Fighter, to which this mecha can attach. In addition, the Alpha can not reach suborbital altitudes on its own, and also required the Beta for this.

"Short Legs" = to the Debris in orbit and back to the moon w/o the Beta in a single shift...
all while maneuvering, interacting with the enemy and hiding amongst the debris...
a "Long" leg in space is what they designed the Beta for, since in Mospeda it was supposed to be able to take them from Mars to Earth in the Alpha-beta/Legeios

[Colonel Wolfe]

Honestly, I don't think there are 10's of Million of invids on Earth, unless the Jupiter Fleet had 10's of millions of Troops... since Sera the Invid princess say the human have a numeric superiority in the last episode.
The Invids on Earth control orbit, but not most of the ground, ships entering orbit are most vunerable to attack, and the invid took clear advantage of that.

also Look at the difference in forces used by the 2 sides of the invid.
The Regent used a mix that relied on Inorganics to do most of his grunt work, and his forces were spread over many systems he dominated. his actual invid were fewer in numbers than the Regesis. The Alpha's and Cyclone are more than capable f dealing with a few invid backed up by slow moving ground based inorganics...
The Alpha is going to mop up against these forces, since the Regent doesn't seam to look at controlling orbit, since the majority time the REf is able to land unopposed against his forces.
The Regesis has a different tactic, she keeps clam ships in space that prevent a fleet form getting a foot-hold on the surface.
but Scott was easily able to take himself and crew with 8 mecha from south America to Denver to new york, then back to the great-lakes...
if she had that many troops, she could have had a complete network of invid out there blanketing the entire surface with invid making a web of PC-detectors that would sense any mecha-vibrations and send a swarm of a few million to demolish them.
Frankly Point-K had thousands of veritechs in service, and was destroyed only a few days/hours before scott and crew found the base, he control of the earth wasn't as solid as we are told in the rpg.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Most of her Invid are in stasis for most of the series. When the UEEF deploys a fleet into near earth orbit for teh first two times, she wakes up enough forces (possibly even all) and sends them up to smash Lancer's and Scott's groups to flinders. When the final assault come sin with Shadow gear, they can apparently get closer to Earth without being noted, but there are apparently enough of them that they aren't able to assault as rapidly, and once again she has plenty of time to wake up enough.all of her Invid children to handle the assault well enough that it failed.

I don't call it a failed assault, it wasn't her forces that stopped the mecha inside the hive coming to kill her.. it was Lancer & Scott.
if she was able to wake them so easily and so quickly, and had millions at her disposal, she would have been able to seen about 300,000 invid for each ship in orbit.. we just don't see these kinds of numbers.

I Just don't buy the complete domination of the Earth by Millions (or billions in IJ's New gen book) book. Point K sat on the planet for nearly 12 years, it was a base Hunter planned and lasted until a after Scott's group failed to take the earth...

I've never bought the Narrative that the Invid were anything more than story-book boogymen to the Master's slave-class used to make them be good. "if you don't obey the Masters, the Invid will steal your shoes and/or soul".
No race that lacks a Capital fleet could remotely harm even the smallest Zentradi Fleet.
The Invids most advanced mecha are tossing spit-balls against the ranges the Zentradi ships/Mecha can produce.
The 2 Zent ships Listed can easily lay waste to a few hundred Clam-ships in a single Melee round.
The Invid only became a Threat to anyone, once the Zent fleet flee to the SDF-1, and the Master's fell to Dana's shower scenes...
and honestly, its pretty easy to hold Orbit if you crash into ships trying to make the decent into the atmosphere... or Attacks nearly defenseless worlds of Stone-people and anthropomorphic terrybears.. (L'rons Kare-bear-in stare ability is useless, since invid are color blind, and rainbows don't bother them. isn't exactly a feet of greatness...

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually it does matter. [...]

Your objections have no supporting evidence via official material, so it really doesn't...

That it isn't mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist in Robotech. [...]

Actually, if it doesn't appear and isn't mentioned in an official source or the OSM, it objectively doesn't exist in the Robotech setting.

I don't understand your statement. You are saying it "can" be true for the Alpha, but not even you seem to know for certain. It all seems like assertation, not really anything so concrete.

That's because that's all it is is an assertion, without any supporting evidence...

The alpha seems less maneuverable and slower, but like many have pointed out, considering it's original design intent, those aren't weaknesses, it is a missile barrage strike fighter, and it does that well, ESPECIALLY with a Beta attached. [...]

Less so in Robotech than in the OSM, thanks to a canonized animation error which leaves most of its missile capacity blocked off with the Alpha component attached.

I am not saying the Alpha can reach low/sub-orbital altitudes, I am saying that given that we never actually see a VF-1 do the same, [...]

We see this in "Space Fold".

why can’t the Alpha at least pull a decent sub-orbital boost? [...]

Because 1. the OSM says it can't, and 2. the Robotech canon stats say it can't.

Especially now that it is capable of traveling from the Moon to Earth and back, and also because its thrust to weight ratio is apparently superior to that of an F-15, while it still has nearly the same top end speed (possibly better, since I have seen recently that some sites seem to attribute it as having a top end speed of Mach 2.77 at 10,000 meters!) [...]

"Traveling from the Moon to Earth and back" is dubious at best, since there's a considerable number of animation errors in that scene alone, and we don't have any idea what the altitude of the debris ring is, or if there was any kind of offscreen aid during the jump cut. I, unfortunately, found an error in my math for the Alpha's T/W, and I have to revise it. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but it looks like it should still have more oomph behind it than the F-15, though slightly less than I previously indicated. (I had originally treated the Alphas as having the same "overboost" 200% engine output setting as the VF-1s, however the Alpha's throttle lever doesn't support it having an overboost mode, so I have to downgrade its maximum rated thrust a wee bit.)

Insofar as the Alpha's performance vs. a F-15's, remember that the F-15 is also a much more aerodynamic plane.

Mainly, it makes little sense for an Alpha to be so dramatically behind the technical achievement level of a VF-1, even if its other design elements (weight, aerodynamic standards, less powerful engines) mean that it is more limited performance wise.

It makes more sense when you consider that the Alpha was developed by a handful of surviving "robotechnologists" who weren't vaporized in the orbital bombardment that, canonically, left only 70,000 human survivors. (The RPG's boost to the population notwithstanding, there still appear to be only a handful of robotechnology experts alive in 2044, several of whom are now dead or in prison.) Humanity lost almost all of its research and development infrastructure and technical expertise in one fell swoop... the massive multinational effort behind the VF-1 wasn't possible anymore, and even geniuses like Lang and Zang can't be great at EVERYTHING.

Put simply, it can and should be slower and less agile to a degree, but to be all of that and less capable across the board makes little sense, not unless a Super part equipped VF-1 “costs” as much or more than a full Legios combiner does!

The only comparison we have on that front is the YF-4, which the RPG changes the reason for... instead of being too expensive to build and maintain, it asserts that the YF-4 development program just ran over budget. Factory satellites probably bring the construction costs down a bit too...

Note also that at Robotech.com and the current RPG, they never actually say that the maximum service ceiling of the VF-1 is 100 klicks, the former says 30,000 meters, [...]

No, they don't... because "low orbit" is 160km+. The VF-1's unboosted service ceiling is over 100km. The Alpha's isn't given, but we're told point-blank that it's incapable of suborbital flight, meaning that under no circumstances can it reach the 100km "edge" of space under its own power.

All that is said is that the VF-1 can reach orbital ranges, but its service ceiling is at best 30% of that altitude. (Keeping in mind that 100 klicks isn’t actually an orbital range either.)

Your basis for this is what, again? Certainly not the show, which shows us a VF-1 achieving this feat... or the canon stats, which don't support your claim... or the OSM, which explicitly tells us that a VF-1 can easily climb higher than the 101.2km the prototypes achieved in surface climb tests.

As for the doctrinal issues, this Alpha is shown engaging Invid swarms at beyond visual ranges during Scott's assault.

No, it's not.

How do I know that, you ask?

First, the AFC-01 Legioss armo-fighter doesn't carry any BVR weaponry in the original MOSPEADA. It never evidences a capability it wasn't designed with. In fact, the dialogue of the original show actually shoots the idea down EXPLICITLY in the very first episode.

Second, the two scenes that are invariably pointed to as alleged evidence of the fighter having BVR capability do show the Inbit/Invid within visual range. The one at 7:17 in the first episode shows the Inbit immediately backlit with all the missile detonations, and within a few frames they're practically about to collide with the camera. For the other, at about 9:03, you see them onscreen as Stick/Scott's Legioss looks over its shoulder at them, right before he opens fire.

This is why the claims that the Alpha has BVR capability are wrong... because the evidence of the series and the OSM does not support it.

Actually, it’s the same sort of shot we see in use by the UN Spacy in Macross II, where they perpetually sling what we are told are guided (certainly so) mini missiles (NOT!) at swarms of targets far beyond the visual sight of the pilots, all of which actually carry more munitions (with greater range even according to the RAW) than the SAPs we see in use?!

Well, remember that the Valkyrie II's Super Armed Pack does, in fact, carry six long-range "heavy missiles" as an addition to its fifty-four shorter-ranged high-maneuverability micro-missiles. For instance, the VF-1 Valkyrie has those HMM-1 micro-missiles from its Super Pack and UUM-7 missile packs, which are about the same size as the unused "first strike missile" from MOSPEADA, meaning they're easily three times the size of the missiles that are used on the Legioss. Their ranges are pretty huge for their size, whereas the Legioss uses extremely short ranged missiles for its exclusively close-range engagement profile.

The Alpha is even shown engaging multiple targets at once in the same scene.

True enough, but so is the VF-1 many, MANY times... 'course, this gets into one of those areas where the Legioss isn't quite up to the VF-1's level... the number of targets it can lock onto simultaneously. The Legioss is shown to be able to lock onto maybe a half dozen or more foes at once, RTSC shows a maximum of about eight or nine that are hit at once with one barrage. The VF-1 tips the scales at a hefty 12 (by animation), with a maximum of 18 in its OSM spec.

This is neither a doctrinal nor a technical failing in the Alpha, it’s an intelligence failing that utterly missed that there were millions to tens of millions of foes. The UEEF was not out teched or outsmarted, they were flat out outnumbered!

Not just outnumbered, they're unable to take advantage of the enemy's exclusively short-ranged nature from afar, and are instead engaging a numerically and/or technologically superior enemy on the enemy's own terms. It's small wonder they get massacred.






Now, if you want an explanation for the VF-1 having greater performance than the successor designs, there's an interest bit of light I can shed onto that.

From a flight performance perspective, the smoking gun for why the performance is so much better on the VF-1 is HOW each fighter is producing thrust. It's a size game, to a certain extent.

The VF-1 Valkyrie's a nice big airframe, by Robotech standards. Its engines are, if they work anything like their OSM counterparts, are heating intake air by using the heat from the fusion reaction directly. That gives it massive thrust capabilities with very little fuel expenditure, because most of the propellant is intake air that the fighter is compressing and explosively flash-superheating. The VF-1's large enough that it has room for a rather substantially powerful pair of superconducting ram-air compressor stages, maximizing the flash-heating response from the reactor itself. To maximize its ability to use that thrust, the VF-1 uses thrust vectoring and boundary layer airflow manipulation in addition to its control surfaces, giving it considerable agility.

The VF/A-8 Logan is a very small airframe, and one of the first thing you notice about it is that its air intakes are extremely small. So small, in fact, that they're often missed entirely. It only has a tiny pair of dorsal intakes that are near the rear of the plane, meaning there's not enough room for a decently large or powerful compressor, let alone two, to maximize the potential of the heat from the fusion reaction. It's basically cursed by its own design, making the engines so small left them without the room for decent-sized intakes or a powerful compressor stage, leaving the engines unable to make the most of the fusion reaction. That, plus its lack of thrust vectoring and the VF-1's sophisticated BLCS, makes it slower to accelerate, less agile in flight, and a wee bit anemic thrust-wise.

The VF/A-6 Alpha's got a less severe version of the same problem. Its engines are very small and the way that it transforms means that there's only room for one, very small compressor stage in the turbine. It doesn't have the ability to rely on the insane heat of a fusion reaction to power its engines, so it has to convert electricity to heat in order to drive its turbines. That's less efficient, and the unfortunate design choices made in the placement of the engines ultimately means that not going to perform as well as a setup where the whole engine is in a fairly linear configuration all the time. That it does as well as it does is nothing short of amazing, so there's your advancement... it's not advancement in performance, it's making a counter-intuitive layout less unviable.

[Tiree]

I have to ask - when did this become a VF-1 vs VAF/6 debate, when it was more of a:

What would make the Alpha 'Decent' and basically make the Game Stats draw players to want to play it. Instead of based on 'generation'.

[Seto Kaiba]

I have to ask - when did this become a VF-1 vs VAF/6 debate, when it was more of a:

What would make the Alpha 'Decent' and basically make the Game Stats draw players to want to play it. Instead of based on 'generation'.

It ALWAYS ends up there whenever we get a thread like this because the natural thing the thread always does is work its way around to "why are the stats that way?". That line of inquiry inevitably comes around to "because Palladium had to base it on the canon stats when they wrote it", which will provoke one (or more) contributors to gripe about how they're opposed to the canon stats... usually because HG based 'em on the OSM.

When it's the Alpha, the complaint is usually some form of "it's newer, therefore it ought to be better", which drags the VF-1 into it via the usual assertion that it's all because of some kind of Macross favoritism at HG.

We did have quite a few interesting suggestions for non-destructively improving the Alpha, though as myself and others have pointed out, the Alpha's pretty decent as-is... it's just put in an unfavorable situation where it can't really shine because it's fighting on its enemy's terms. IMO, its stats are fine as-is, since the RPG already throws it several considerable bones...

[Colonel Wolfe]

I have to ask - when did this become a VF-1 vs VAF/6 debate, when it was more of a:

sad it happens way to often too

What would make the Alpha 'Decent' and basically make the Game Stats draw players to want to play it. Instead of based on 'generation'.

for me, just allowing to to follow the Rules as written and the Art in the books is more than enough.
+8 missiles, up to 3 gunpods, and the ability to re-load in the field.
Add the Fisrt-strike MRM's (250 mm warheads classify them in that category)
Some Fly-by wire bonuses like all of the flying Veritechs have. (since some are of the opinion that the ASC mecha are the technological nadir of Robotech, the Fly-by-wire bonuses the Logan & Ajax have make it way better than the alpha thou.)

[camk4evr]

What would make the Alpha 'Decent' and basically make the Game Stats draw players to want to play it. Instead of based on 'generation'.

Use it as a ground support unit instead of in the aerospace superiority role.

[ShadowLogan]

You are saying it "can" be true for the Alpha, but not even you seem to know for certain. It all seems like assertation, not really anything so concrete.

My personal view is that the Alpha demonstrates the capacity by flying from the Lunar Surface to Earth Orbit and back, from a Delta-V perspective that is more than enough to allow the Alpha to launch itself into full orbit from Earth's surface. HG's assertion that the platform can't even do suborbital is hogwosh, since the unit can switch engines to "space mode", which is powerful enough to allow it to fly around on the Moon (T/W ratio remains), combined that with what ever existing "range" it has and sub-orbital flight is already present even w/o TSC. Basically HG has a disconnect going between what they SAY VS what they SHOW.

There is really no reason the Alpha, or other ASC VFs, should not have the basic ability to insert themselves into orbit. While some insist the capacity negates the need for the Beta on the Alpha, we really do not have concrete definition of what the UEEF considered "short-legs in space". A 15kps delta-V capacity could be short-legs (and capable of Earth-SSTO) if you find you need 30kps or more in actual practice.

And it is possible to explain the lack of use of the ability in the animation, when one applies a bit of actual hard science. That being launch location and desired orbit are factors that would determine if the platform can get into that desired orbit.

Achieving low ordbit doesn't seem to be something the source material agrees with, regardless.

That's fine for the OSM, but RT material shows something different when you put the pieces together on what they show combined with reality.

Note also that at Robotech.com and the current RPG, they never actually say that the maximum service ceiling of the VF-1 is 100 klicks, the former says 30,000 meters, which is half again an F-15 Eagle, but three times that of a quadruple engine variable fighter with a higher T/W ratio than that same conventional fighter?! One that is only 2.7 tons lighter in it’s dry state too. The RPG seems to agree with that figure as well. All that is said is that the VF-1 can reach orbital ranges, but its service ceiling is at best 30% of that altitude. (Keeping in mind that 100 klicks isn’t actually an orbital range either.)

RT.com lists the VF-1 and VFA-6 Alpha with a max. altitude speed at 30,000m (30km), the only VF they claim can't fly that high is the VF-8 Logan (though n/a could mean not applicable OR not available).

Your objections have no supporting evidence via official material, so it really doesn't...

Because the Source Material outside the animation is flawed by shoe-horning stats from series with different tech bases and not an actual attempt to make something that fits together w/o these WTH are they thinking decisions. Nor does it actually attempt to use hard science, though it tries to pretend it did.

Based on assessments of the animation from a hard science angle, the "official material" has no real support from the canon story/animation with regard to the Alpha's orbital capacity.

[Alrik Vas]

ShadowLogan, I see where you are coming from, but what you assert as a capability, I see as HG not thinking things through very well.

[Kagashi]

1) Give the Alpha (and all other flying veritechs for that matter) the same fly by wire system the VF-1 has. It is incredulously stupid for the other veritechs to not have the fly by wire system. Shame on Palladium for short changing the Alpha and other veritechs just to make the VF-1 ‘cool’.

Sadly, I did not have enough time to read the entire thread. I agree with all your proposed changes wholeheartedly. But in your opinion, would this change give the Alpha fighter mode auto dodge bonuses like every other Veritech?

[Tiree]

1) Give the Alpha (and all other flying veritechs for that matter) the same fly by wire system the VF-1 has. It is incredulously stupid for the other veritechs to not have the fly by wire system. Shame on Palladium for short changing the Alpha and other veritechs just to make the VF-1 ‘cool’.

Sadly, I did not have enough time to read the entire thread. I agree with all your proposed changes wholeheartedly. But in your opinion, would this change give the Alpha fighter mode auto dodge bonuses like every other Veritech?

I would say yes, and I agree with that change.

In reality there are really minor differences between the Mecha Combat of an Alpha and a VF-1. The biggest being the Auto-Dodge. In TSC Auto-Dodge was not prevalent within the game. Masters and Macross it is. In that case, what is at fault? It suffers from being the first book of a game line, and it should have been the last.

There are other things that are covered in other era's that should have had points brought up in the Alpha's and what not. It wasn't and therefore, it lacks, and is lackluster of a mecha.

At least they fixed the radar range from 10 miles on the 1st Edition up to what... 100+ in TSC?

[Arnie100]

150 miles for the -6I and 6Z and 250 for -6H.