Bonus to strike, bonus to throw, bonus to disarm?

[Glistam]

If an ancient W.P. provides a bonus to strike, and also provides a bonus to throw, do the two get added together when throwing the weapon at a target as a ranged strike? I know the W.P. Targeting skill adds it's bonus to throw to the weapon's W.P. bonus, but my question is for these two bonuses within the same W.P.. Similarly, does the bonus to Disarm stack with any of these bonuses as well?

[Grand Paladin]

No, if a WP imparts a bonus to strike, throw, and also a disarm bonus, they would not stack with each other. For instance, a knife is used in melee range, the user of the knife is using it in-hand, not letting go and manipulating the blade in a skilled manner to cut where and how he/she wants the attacker would use the strike bonus. If the target is 12 feet away and the attacker is throws the knife to the back of the leg, then the act of aiming and releasing the knife on target would use the thrown bonus. Again, repeat for the the attacker using the knife to hook the space between a scoped handgun in order to have the victim drop the weapon, use the disarm bonus.

Each is a specific combat move.

[Akashic Soldier]

I disagree with you on this one grand. It explicitly specifies that it does not add the bonus in (W.P. Sword?) and gives the reason that they're not designed for throwing. So I've always assumed that if it is a throwing weapon (a knife for example) than thrown bonuses (like bonuses from W.P. Targeting) add to strike bonuses.

[Witchcraft]

I agree with Akashic Soldier on this one. The writing is ambiguous. The other W.P. skills specifically call out that they DO NOT add the bonuses for launching hand-to-hand weapons because they're not designed for throwing. I've kinda assumed that the Archery / Targeting skill added to the W.P. skills of weapons that ARE designed for ranged alternate uses.

[Prysus]

I disagree with you on this one grand. It explicitly specifies that it does not add the bonus in (W.P. Sword?) and gives the reason that they're not designed for throwing. So I've always assumed that if it is a throwing weapon (a knife for example) than thrown bonuses (like bonuses from W.P. Targeting) add to strike bonuses.

I agree with Akashic Soldier on this one. The writing is ambiguous. The other W.P. skills specifically call out that they DO NOT add the bonuses for launching hand-to-hand weapons because they're not designed for throwing. I've kinda assumed that the Archery / Targeting skill added to the W.P. skills of weapons that ARE designed for ranged alternate uses.

Greetings and Salutations. While both of you seem to have the rules accurate, neither of you really answered the question being asked. Grand Paladin did, and answered it correctly. For clarity, I'll use an example for what's being asked in the original post.

W.P. Knife (Level 4): +2 to strike, +2 to parry, +2 strike when thrown.

Can you add the bonus to strike and bonus thrown together? Hence, get a +4 thrown just from having W.P. Knife at Level 4.

The answer is no (as stated by Grand Paladin).

Note: As per RUE, if that same character also had W.P. Targeting, the character would have a +4 to strike thrown (+2 from W.P. Knife and +2 from W.P. Targeting). This is stated clearly in the W.P. Targeting write up, but is NOT the question that was being asked.

Anyways, just wanted to clear the confusion because confusion ... um ... confuses me? Wait ... I think I just confused myself. Uh ... that's all for now, have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Akashic Soldier]

I guess I am saying that I think it does add a bonus to strike when thrown.

[Prysus]

:lol:

I guess I am saying that I think it does add a bonus to strike when thrown.

Greetings and Salutations. Err ... wait, so let me just get this right. So in the example above (4th level W.P. Knife and Targeting), you're saying the character is +6 to strike when throwing the knife (+2 to strike from W.P. Knife, +2 to thrown from W.P. Knife, and +2 to thrown from W.P. Targeting)? All of this NOT including any HtH, P.P., or any other combat bonuses, just those two W.P.

If so, I can't say I agree with you (logically or mechanically), but you are welcome to your opinion. I just want to make sure I understand you correctly (and not a miscommunication). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Akashic Soldier]

The Bonus would look something like this (at least this is how I have been running it)

[Physical Prowess Bonus] + [Hand to Hand Strike Bonus (if any)] + [W.P. Knife Strike Bonus] + [W.P. Knife Throw Bonus] + [W.P. Targeting Strike Bonus]

So a 6th level character with a P.P. attribute of 22 and hand to hand Expert would have a total of +13 to strike when the knife was thrown.

[+4 from attribute] + [+2 to strike from Hand to Hand] + [+2 from W.P. Knife] + [+3 from W.P. Knife] + [+2 from W.P. Targeting -- Critical Strike on an unmodified 19 or 20] = +13

However when used as a stabbing implement in close combat the knife would only have +8

[+4 from attribute] + [+2 from Hand to Hand] + [+2 from W.P. Knife] = +8

I only do this with archery and thrown attacks because of how they are explicitly classified as different from modern weapons in the R:UE and the R:GMG and are more accurate and typically only inflict a -1 or -3 to parry/dodge as opposed to the normal -5 or -10 from a firearm. I find this is balanced out somewhat by the fact that they have a considerably shorter range and are much more expensive than even conventional ammunition. This is so that someone who has put in the time and effort training with archery or thrown weapons can be almost as effective as an untrained person with a firearm.

[Goliath Strongarm]

OK... let's answer this clearly for the original poster, eh?

Rules, as WRITTEN...

WP Bonus to Strike and WP Bonus to throw do NOT stack. Plain and simple. The Bonus to Disarm, and the Bonus to Strike and or Throw, do NOT stack. They are all mutually exclusive. Think of them as completely separate things.

You get to add in any bonuses from HtH and from stats.

Those are the rules per the books. Anything else is a HOUSE RULE.

[Glistam]

If that is the "rules per the books" then can you reference a book and page number that identifies this so clearly? I'm especially interested to see where I missed that throwing a weapon to disarm someone would only use the disarm bonus and none of the throw bonuses, but the combination or separation of strike and disarmbonuses is a close second. I also take it then that yoy would not even add P.P. bonuses to disarm, since it's only added to strikes?

[Goliath Strongarm]

If that is the "rules per the books" then can you reference a book and page number that identifies this so clearly?

Before I get to snippy with my response (since it's 4am)... does that even NEED a page number?

How about common *snip* sense? Because otherwise, blunt weapons, not designed for throwing, get a higher bonus to throw than they do for normal strike. How's that for enough of a response? Half the time, if you read the rules, the rules answer themselves. Especially when you ask a smartass question.

I'm especially interested to see where I missed that throwing a weapon to disarm someone would only use the disarm bonus and none of the throw bonuses, but the combination or separation of strike and disarmbonuses is a close second. I also take it then that yoy would not even add P.P. bonuses to disarm, since it's only added to strikes?

And actually, it depends on HOW you disarm- a disarm can be done as a defensive move in place of a dodge or parry, or as a strike. Read what a disarm is, and that answers itself as well. Although since YOU bring it up...

Disarm is mentioned in HtH Expert at level 8.. with no bonus, which suggests that you can't do it until then. HtH basic doesn't mention it at all. HtH MA at 2, and HtH A at 4, both with bonuses- if disarm is done as a strike, would those disarm bonuses stack with strike bonuses? The book is NOT clear on this.

Here, it comes down to GM ruling.. and I'd probably let it stack. Honestly, I never had many people trying to disarm.

And while I may be missing it, since it is 4am, the OP was discussing WPs- I don't see any WP that adds a bonus to disarm.

[Glistam]

So no, it is not specifically stated in the book, and as such there is no cannon answer, only opinions and GM rulings. That's as good an answer as most, and better than stating an opinion as definitive fact.

[Akashic Soldier]

in previous editions, disarms only occured on 18+. New rules it was on any strike the defender fails his defense with.
as long as he can disarm.

Interestingly, if you perform a disarm as a defensive action than you still need a (I want to say 19?)

As for the thrown thing being a house rule, and common sense, I think I am using common sense.

My W.P. gives me +2 to strike. When I throw it I get an extra +3. So that is +5. If I am disarming and I have +2 to disarm and I throw to disarm I'd have +5 (because I have +3 when I am making a thrown attack). It seems very simple to me. Are you telling me that just because there are some magical items and scopes listed as giving you +1 to hit that "hit" is a new type of attack and those bonus don't stack? No, that's silly. So, you get +1 to strike. Just like when you aim, you get +2 to strike. Its simple. At least I think so. I've changed nothing. No house rule. Just adding +3 to strike when the W.P. tells me too and NOT adding it when it doesn't tell me too. Plus, so far its worked out pretty well in my games. To date, I've had no problems or complaints.

I don't see any WP that adds a bonus to disarm.

W.P. Archery.

[Prysus]

As for the thrown thing being a house rule, and common sense, I think I am using common sense.

Greetings and Salutations. Before I begin, let me start by saying I have no serious issues with your ruling, but I disagree with it being "common sense." Note: I won't argue canon, because it's never explicitly spelled out (just heavily implied).

1: Your "common sense" says that if one guy is standing within arm's reach and one guy is standing 60 feet (18.3 m) back, both equally trained and holding a knife, and and both aiming at an identical target with a bull's eye ... the guy standing 60 feet (18.3 m) away is MORE likely to hit. After all, "common sense" says the closer you get the less accurate you are. Wait ... um ... oooo-kay. This logic also says that a highly skilled (15th level) knight is more accurate by throwing his sword (a weapon not designed for throwing) than swinging it in his hands. Yeeeaaahhh ... not so sure about the "common sense" of this line of thought.

2: Since we're using RUE (for some reason I had thought we were in the PF forum until I saw the "Disarm" bonus with archery), let's look at "Throw" on page 347.

Rolling to throw is exactly the same as rolling to strike, except that there are different bonuses per weapon type.

Your "common sense" also suggests that their use of "different" (which means not the same) means "the same plus extra." Technically, I guess that's different, only it's not a logical conclusion (as opposed to thinking two different bonuses might be different, instead of the same).

3: If we look at HtH Assassin (page 348 of RUE), they have bonuses to strike in hand to hand, thrown, and guns. Does this imply they are the same, or different? I'd say different (but to each their own). Though let's further consider this one, shall we? What does the fact they separate "hand to hand" from "thrown" suggest?

That everyone gets bonuses to thrown all the time and Assassins just suck by having their bonuses broken up?
Or that "Hand to Hand" bonuses don't typically apply to "thrown" items, but Assassins are bad arse who get bonuses to thrown when others do not?

Not sure about you, but I like the latter option. This makes Hand to Hand: Assassin more awesome and special, as opposed to just stupid and poorly executed.

Are you telling me that just because there are some magical items and scopes listed as giving you +1 to hit that "hit" is a new type of attack and those bonus don't stack? No, that's silly. So, you get +1 to strike. Just like when you aim, you get +2 to strike. Its simple.

Are you telling me because a gun has a bonus to "strike," you add in P.P. and all Hand to Hand combat bonuses? Of course not, that's silly. Of course, all your comment and mine just did is point out we can be ridiculous, neither actually addressing the topic at hand.

Plus, so far its worked out pretty well in my games. To date, I've had no problems or complaints.

Awesome. I'm glad your system works for you.

For note: While I disagree with your logic/interpretation, I'm perfectly content with other people playing the game differently (my main point of contention is to discuss the rules from the book as best we can). If I seem hostile, I apologize. Someone else in this thread aggrivated me (I won't say who). I did my best to post calmly, but you may be the unfortunate victim if I was unsuccessful. If you do have book quotes that suggest they DO get added together, I'm interested to see them. I doubt I'll agree with their interpretation, but you never know (and always good to see where the other person is coming from).

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you all for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Sorry for the double post but I just noticed a few added details (all are from RUE).

1: W.P. Targeting mentions things like "plus" to describe extra bonuses, not "different."

2: W.P. Targeting has a section called "Aimed Attack/Called Shot." And here we see the quote ...

A thrown weapon is considered a ranged attack, however, the P.P. attribute bonus to strike does apply ...

There are a couple of things here to note. For one, it mentions it's a "ranged attack" (not a "hand to hand" attack ... as if again separating it). Second, it mentions the P.P. atribute applies (as if this is an exception to ranged attacks, such as guns), but does not mention hand to hand bonuses.

3: My "common sense" tells me that a strike bonus for melee weapons are hand to hand bonuses, not ranged. If a weapon can be used as both, they might do something crazy ... like include two separate bonuses. Just sayin'.

4: On the topic of "disarm," we also see in W.P. Targeting (wow this was a good one to look at!) ...

A thrown weapon can also be used to disarm via an Aimed or Called Shot/toss; bonuses to disarm via Hand to Hand Combat apply.

For this type of attack (and only this type of attack) do they mention adding in bonuses from Hand to Hand. However, that's not the reason I pointed this out. I note it because they mention "the bonuses to disarm" and not the bonuses to strike or anything else, as if once again the bonuses are different (not the same, nor "the same plus extra").

Anyways, I'm finished (again). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

Everybody, striking means melee. Shooting and Throwing are different things.

You can totally add your Disarm bonus to Body Flips (if you're disarming someone with a body flip) according to HU though, which is nice since body flips don't get PP bonuses to parry, evens it out a bit.

It kinda makes sense too, because someone with experience at wrist-grapping (body flipping) would probably get better at disarming... and if someone is attacking you with a weapon, they'd be slower than punching, and leave their limbs hanging out longer to grab.

[Dog_O_War]

Here is the problem;

The terms are not defined.

First, all combat, even gunfire, is melee combat. You use melee attacks to shoot, you shoot in melee combat, etc. That is problem one: All combat is melee.

Second, your general bonus to strike is in melee combat. When you read, "+2 bonus to strike in melee with a knife" That is ill-defined because the the above term is ill-defined. The rule as intended means close, hand-to-hand "I'ma stab you!" style of combat. The rule as written however, only states "melee". That is problem two: this term uses the above term as a specific, but the above term was ill-defined. This leads in to the next point;

Third, your "+2 to strike when thrown" requires a frame of reference, which is melee combat. It is completely within the realm of reason here to then believe that because it's written as "+2" and not another way, well that would mean you add it to your other bonuses, right? A valid interpretation.

There are however, blurbs; small entries here and there scattered across the various books that state you don't actually add this bonus to your general bonus to strike. But I'll be damned if I can find a hard book and page regarding this. I can only recall reading such a thing

At least with gunfire they bothered to state that you don't get your PP bonuses (unless there are special circumstances).


Either way, I can see how this is confusing and mired due to a lack of clarity.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Here is the problem;

The terms are not defined.

First, all combat, even gunfire, is melee combat. You use melee attacks to shoot, you shoot in melee combat, etc. That is problem one: All combat is melee.

Congratulations, here is your incorrect definition of the week award!!

Actually, learn your definitions. A melee weapon, or a melee combat, is specifically a hand to hand combat. Not a ranged combat.

You know when a gun becomes a melee weapon? When you use it as a blunt weapon to club someone. When you use it to shoot, it's a RANGED weapon.

Shooting people isn't melee combat. It's a ranged combat. Even if you press the gun up to the person's body and pull the trigger, it's not melee.

[Tor]

Goliath I think what Dog is getting at is how we use the phrase 'melee round' even when not engaged in melee range. It's a bit ambiguous. It would've been better had Palladium specified 'combat round' or 'conflict round', probably.

[Dog_O_War]

Here is the problem;

The terms are not defined.

First, all combat, even gunfire, is melee combat. You use melee attacks to shoot, you shoot in melee combat, etc. That is problem one: All combat is melee.

Congratulations, here is your incorrect definition of the week award!!

Actually, learn your definitions. A melee weapon, or a melee combat, is specifically a hand to hand combat. Not a ranged combat.

You know when a gun becomes a melee weapon? When you use it as a blunt weapon to club someone. When you use it to shoot, it's a RANGED weapon.

Shooting people isn't melee combat. It's a ranged combat. Even if you press the gun up to the person's body and pull the trigger, it's not melee.

How does your foot taste?

Goliath I think what Dog is getting at is how we use the phrase 'melee round' even when not engaged in melee range. It's a bit ambiguous. It would've been better had Palladium specified 'combat round' or 'conflict round', probably.

This.

[42dragon]

Each bonus as called out is a different item. Lets take a look at all the parts of a character that combine or influence to put these together.

PP: 22 -> +4 to strike, parry, dodge (note there is no disarm included here) RUE 281
HTH: Martial Arts @ level 7 +3 parry, dodge, +2 strike, +2 entangle, +2 disarm RUE 348
WP Knife @ level 7 +3 strike, parry, throw RUE 327
WP Blunt @ level 7 +3 strike, parry, +1 throw RUE 326
WP Targeting @ level 7 +3 to strike (this is misleading as it only applies to throwing the item so it should be +3 to throw) also this would not apply to a Mace as it is not designed for throwing RUE 328

And the dreaded not so "common sense" it would indicated that it would not be easier to knock a small target like a gun out of someones hand than it would be to hit (strike or thrown) the main body of a target.

Stabbing Knife (Strike): [PP bonus] + [HTH bonus] + [WP Knife (strike)] = +9 to strike
Throwing Knife at a Bulls eye (Throw): [PP bonus] + [WP Knife (throw)] + [WP Targeting] = +10 to throw
Knocking a gun out of an opponents hand (Knife or Mace, HTH or thrown) (Disarm): [HTH bonus to disarm] = +2 to disarm
Bashing Mace (Strike): [PP bonus] + [HTH bonus] + [WP Blunt (strike)] = +9 to strike
Throwing Mace to unseat a horseman (Throw): [PP bonus] + [WP Blunt (throw)] = +5 to throw

As you can see above, a disarm is rarely tried because the bonuses are much lower. Now while it is slightly counter intuitive that the thrown knife attack is more accurate that the stab attack, this is due to the fact that the character has dual WP training and has really focused on throwing knives.

[Grand Paladin]

Each bonus as called out is a different item. Lets take a look at all the parts of a character that combine or influence to put these together.

PP: 22 -> +4 to strike, parry, dodge (note there is no disarm included here) RUE 281
HTH: Martial Arts @ level 7 +3 parry, dodge, +2 strike, +2 entangle, +2 disarm RUE 348
WP Knife @ level 7 +3 strike, parry, throw RUE 327
WP Blunt @ level 7 +3 strike, parry, +1 throw RUE 326
WP Targeting @ level 7 +3 to strike (this is misleading as it only applies to throwing the item so it should be +3 to throw) also this would not apply to a Mace as it is not designed for throwing RUE 328

And the dreaded not so "common sense" it would indicated that it would not be easier to knock a small target like a gun out of someones hand than it would be to hit (strike or thrown) the main body of a target.

Stabbing Knife (Strike): [PP bonus] + [HTH bonus] + [WP Knife (strike)] = +9 to strike
Throwing Knife at a Bulls eye (Throw): [PP bonus] + [WP Knife (throw)] + [WP Targeting] = +10 to throw
Knocking a gun out of an opponents hand (Knife or Mace, HTH or thrown) (Disarm): [HTH bonus to disarm] = +2 to disarm
Bashing Mace (Strike): [PP bonus] + [HTH bonus] + [WP Blunt (strike)] = +9 to strike
Throwing Mace to unseat a horseman (Throw): [PP bonus] + [WP Blunt (throw)] = +5 to throw

As you can see above, a disarm is rarely tried because the bonuses are much lower. Now while it is slightly counter intuitive that the thrown knife attack is more accurate that the stab attack, this is due to the fact that the character has dual WP training and has really focused on throwing knives.

Completely agree here with 42dragon.

[Glistam]

rifts GM guide says PP bonus is added to Disarm.
but there are two types, and one can always be attempted.

Page number?

[Glistam]

Well , Just checked RUE says it, not the GMG.

Page number?

[Tor]

Does anyone know if any books besides HU allows people to combine the bonuses for body flip with disarm in lieu of inflicting damage with the flip?