techno-wizardry and chi manipulation

[Nekira Sudacne]

No, you can't make TW devices that incorporate Chi Mastery the same way you can't really make TW devices that incorporate psionics--at best you can use a spell that somewhat mimics their effects.

You can however make TW Devices that incorporate Chi Magic from the Mystic China N&SS supplement, and many of the Chi Magic spells mimic the effects of chi mastery.

If you want a Chi-based self-recharging PPE battery, then you want to make a mystic vajra, again from mystic china, then incorporate that into your device.

[drewkitty ~..~]

NK has said it right. I have nothing to add to her correctness.

[Tor]

I concur, although I don't know enough about the strange ISP/PPE fuelled conversions of N&SS stuff in Rifts Japan/China so would they have potential?

[drewkitty ~..~]

I concur, although I don't know enough about the strange ISP/PPE fueled conversions of N&SS stuff in Rifts Japan/China so would they have potential?

The PPE/ISP martial arts powers in RJ and RC2 (respectively) don't use Chi to fuel their powers. So they do not come into a discussion about Chi Manipulation powers.

[Yes, the flavor text says 'chi' but since the Stats say PPE or ISP. Therefor, they are PPE martial arts and ISP martial arts even though Rifters argue otherwise based on the flavor text.]

The RJ PPE MA powers could possibly be mimicked easily by a TW in a device if the TW had concept close spells in his spell book. But the ISP (Dare I say "Psi" ) MA powers in RC2 are unique to dimensional flux area that is china on Rifts Earth. Therefor, can not be mimicked by TW devices nor be given out as Psi powers to non-native to Rifts China Chars.

[Tor]

They're related in that chi manipulation powers are martial arts abilities and these are ISP/PPE versions of martial arts abilities. For the most part not conversions of chi manipulation ones, but still related. I don't think they count as magic spells though so I don't know if a TW could do anything with them. The ISP stuff might be better prey for a Gizmoteer PCC.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry if you are not manipulating Chi with the MA powers then You are not manipulating Chi. Duh! *give a look as if to say this is a simple concept to understand*

Therefor, the (dumbed down conversions/versions) MA h2h (RJ) and MAF (RC2) that only manipulate PPE or only manipulate ISP are not relevant to a discussion about Chi manipulation. (~in other words~ apples are apples and when talking about oranges you don't talk about apples just because people like apples more. )

BTW The Gizmoteer class found in RSA2 is a Stoneman RCC option.

[Tor]

Chi Magic also manipulates chi, yet isn't a MA power, Drew.

The ISP/PPE versions are relevant to discussions about martial arts powers. It's not just Chi Mastery powers that manipulate chi, some martial arts techniques and arts of invisibility also do that.

Although the conversions do not involve chi, it's fine to bring them up in passing. If any powers originally fuelled by chi have ISP/PPE versions, those converted versions could be a substitute to get similar effects (albeit not chi ones) were it possible to TWify them (which I think they may not be since they don't sound by spells, but I could be wrong, not as familiar with RJ/RC content)

The RSA2 Gizmoteer is indeed an option available to Stonemen.

However, since the Duelist, also an RCC available to Stonemen, is available to humans, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that Gizmoteers (who have no 'Amaki only' restrictions) could also be.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And was talking about MA powers, so there was no mention of magic.

Talking about them in passing is mentioning them one too many times. *watches my RC2 book still burning* (yes, my biggest beef is with the Stupid! Munchkin pandering *:crane:* ones in RC2)

The (psi) Gizmoteer RCC is presented witht he other stonemen RCCs therefor that is what it is a stonemen RCC. It is TOOOOOO lame to be a mislabeled PCC. This is besides the fact that KS has all but said RSA2 is non-canon.

Sidenote: the idea of a Psi that builds Psi-Tech devices is a good idea.(is working on a non-lame one.) But the "Psi" Techno Wizard idea , as presented in RSA2, is lame. which is why I'm glad it is a stoneman RCC.)

[Tor]

The (psi) Gizmoteer RCC is presented witht he other stonemen RCCs therefor that is what it is a stonemen RCC. It is TOOOOOO lame to be a mislabeled PCC.

They're both OCCs, heck even SA2 which was pre-RUE has references to them as OCCs. It's pretty clear that RCC labelling was a last minute change due to the old 'label psionic-focused classes as RCC' system.

If humans can be Duelists, why not Gizmoteers? Nowhere does it say Amaki only.

This is besides the fact that KS has all but said RSA2 is non-canon.

I appreciate Kevin's authority in deciding what stuff can be introduced as canon, but once he sells me something as canon, I do not respect the right to withdraw that. Once by the rules, always by the rules. Canonicity is a meaningless concept if it can be retconned out of existence. Canonicity is pointless if it's a fleeting concept.

Sidenote: the idea of a Psi that builds Psi-Tech devices is a good idea.(is working on a non-lame one.) But the "Psi" Techno Wizard idea , as presented in RSA2, is lame. which is why I'm glad it is a stoneman RCC.)

Except it's not.

[drewkitty ~..~]

You have heard of typos have you not? So the typos you are pointing out can easily be chalked up to someone forgetting to change the copy and pasted standard skills format from O to R. This is even more likely when you realize that "Gee if these were not Racial CC's then they would be PCC's which the OCC typos would still be typos.

So Get Real and start using your brain, instead of just parroting things.

[Tor]

Why should I assume the O is a typo instead of the R? Especially with the mass R>O changes in RUE.

I'm using my brain, I'm just using it to get what is awesome. It's not parroting at all =/

[drewkitty ~..~]

Why should I assume the O is a typo instead of the R? Especially with the mass R>O changes in RUE.

I'm using my brain, I'm just using it to get what is awesome. It's not parroting at all =/

(expands what I said so even lazy democrats can understand....)
In the said three Akemi Stoneman RCC's the C&P'ed OCC's in the skill section labels, are the typos.
-------------------
RUE has it's own problems.....well one of the problems is the same as from the RMB but using a different style to the problem. (IOW Instead of PCC's being mislabeled as RCC's they are now mislabeled as OCC's.)

[Tor]

What we perceive as typos can be subjective in this case The concept of mis-labelling is also subjective. I don't see how being a techno-wizard is any more of an occupation as being a gizmoteer, personally. MCC/PCC classification is nice, but those seem like forms of OCCs before. PCCs have been referred to as OCCs.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What we perceive as typos can be subjective in this case The concept of mis-labelling is also subjective. I don't see how being a techno-wizard is any more of an occupation as being a gizmoteer, personally. MCC/PCC classification is nice, but those seem like forms of OCCs before. PCCs have been referred to as OCCs.

The typos are not subjective, because they are typos in the three stonemen RCCs.

Gizmoteers are N&S variants of the hardware power cats. No psionics in them.

Yes, the current Rifts style filters mislabel PCC's as OCC's.

[Tor]

They aren't Stonemen RCCs, unless by that you mean they invented it.

Stoneman is a race which can select OCCs, and Duelist/Gizmoteer are listed amongst them.

They are listed as RCCs either due to a typo or because psychic classes in Rifts were at the time listed as RCCs in addition to OCCs because of their psionics.

The book is explicit about Duelists being humans also, so collectively they are not Stone Man RCCs.

While Gizmoteers don't mention humans being them too, they also don't explicitly limit the class to Amaki either.

The note is probably more to limit the Duelist (ie only the 2 most prominent races are allowed to learn it, none of the other d-bees) rather than to expand it from some default "Amaki-only" status that you're assuming.

[drewkitty ~..~]

They are Stonemen RCC's. Why? (Repeats what I said before because you do not seam to "Get It") Because That is What they are presented as AND that is what they Are. Duh!

Sorry Tor you are so wrong.

Dualists, The class as presenting in the book is a Stoneman RCC.
Yes, there are non-stonemen psions that have an equevelent Dualist PCC.

You are being annoying with your bad word usage. It is makes you appear to not have put any real thought into your opinions.

[Tor]

Drew, I'm not sure if PCC has ever been used in Rifts, so much as we might like the term from BtS/Nightbane/PF, I don't see the point in using it here.

Human Duelists are not the "equivalent" of it, they ARE it.

Stonemen can be the "equivalent" of Mind Bleeders, and it uses that term when it's talking about being a match rather than an equal.

I'm unclear which part of your word usage is bad, but no, someone's usage of words being disagreeable to you does not mean they don't put thought (and all thought is real) into their opinions. People can put significant (since by 'any real' I assume you mean 'much') thought into things while still reaching different perspectives.

They are not "Stonemen RCCs" because that phrase was never used to describe either of them. The main headings for the OCC/RCC (not PCC, though I agree that's what they'd be in BtS/NB/PF) simply says Duelist/Gizmoteer.

If you consult other CJ Carella works, you will notice that when he wants a class to be racially exclusive, he actually (in the main title) names it after the race. For example the "Promethean Phase Adept" or the "Promethean Time Master" (in Phase World) or even within SA2 itself, the "Pucara Mind Mage" or the "Arkhon ESP Specialist" or the "Fallam Battlemaster".

The racial "Amaki" only precedes Duelist/Gizmoteer within the background text, but not in any of the major headings, this is a significant difference. The rational conclusion is that it is only meant to represent that the Amaki invented the class, and that they probably still comprise the majority of it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Tor, if you have not noticed I've been saying things from a objective view point. Saying things as they are w/o any "rifts style filter" coloring what I am saying.

No, I am not going to change. So it is futile to argue with me over me stating things as they are. Instead of "following the Party line" and saying things in line with the style filter.

So if you STOP, and THINK, about the concepts about what I am saying. You just might find you might agree with the "CONCEPT" that I am saying. Even though you might not like me saying them w/o the Rifts "style filters".

Yes, there has been Psychic Char Classes from day one in Rifts. It is just they were hidden under a style filter that called them RCC's.
Note: If you look throughout my my posts I have been stating and restating this basic concept that in Rifts PCC's have been mislabeled as RCC's (pre-RUE) and as OCC's (RUE & Post-RUE).

"Being presented as" does not mean there is Akemi in it's name. In this, that part you missed, the three RCC's are presented together as a group of RCC's.

Sort of like when a sports team is introduced....they will say "LA Dodgers" and list the names of the players. Thus all the players were presented as a part of the team because they were presented together. So you were missing the forest cause you are focusing too much about looking at the leaves for fungi.

[Alrik Vas]

I have a question regarding all this. I understand PPE/ISP/CHI are all different things in Palladium, but do you, Drew, feel that this was just a massive bugger-up by Palladium and their writers changing things, then someone changing it back, then another person ignoring both and doing their own thing?

The flavor text makes it all similar, the mechanics are often cousins of each other, but they're each fueled by a...different...sort...of...inner, potential...spiritual...something, but it's all different.

Asking for your assessment, not trying to start a new argument.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I have a question regarding all this. I understand PPE/ISP/CHI are all different things in Palladium, but do you, Drew, feel that this was just a massive bugger-up by Palladium and their writers changing things, then someone changing it back, then another person ignoring both and doing their own thing?

The flavor text makes it all similar, the mechanics are often cousins of each other, but they're each fueled by a...different...sort...of...inner, potential...spiritual...something, but it's all different.

Asking for your assessment, not trying to start a new argument.

Yes, PPE, Chi and ISP are different.
Yes, there is stupidness when writers stray from what they are. And/Or use the terms interchangeably. (See the RChina books for the biggest stupidness in this respect.)

The way I've come to use words to describe each...
PPE is the mystical power of the Body and Soul.
Chi is the mystical power of the Spirit and Body.
ISP is the power of the mind.

PPE and Chi can be used interchangeably in TW stuff, for the most part at a 1 (PPE) to 6 (Chi) ratio. This is because of the shared link to the body.

With IS points the conversion ratio is inconsistent to say the least. To give an example I'll bring up Psionic and TW devices. While the ratio for IS points to power a TW device is 2 IS points per every PPE normally required, when talking about Psionic devices it is 2 PPE needed for every 1 IS point normally required.
Then there are the different spell and powers that "convert" each way with differing ratios.

Why did I say all of this about IS points? To show how they are NOT closely related to PPE and Chi.

[Tor]

So if you STOP, and THINK, about the concepts about what I am saying. You just might find you might agree with the "CONCEPT" that I am saying. Even though you might not like me saying them w/o the Rifts "style filters".

Drew I would request you stop speaking to others as if they are not thinking about the concepts which they respond to, I am, and I've largely understood your point and agree with you about the concept. Our opinions about conceptualization are irrelevant though, and secondary to the letter of the rules.

there has been Psychic Char Classes from day one in Rifts. It is just they were hidden under a style filter that called them RCC's.

A 'filter' is presumably something used to obscure the truth, no? If the psychic classes in Rifts (Burster/Mind Melter) were RCCs from the beginning I'm not sure why we should call them a filter.

If the response is that BtS was using PCCs prior to Rifts, then PF was also using OCC for Mind Mage prior to that.

"Being presented as" does not mean there is Akemi in it's name. In this, that part you missed, the three RCC's are presented together as a group of RCC's.

Yes, a group of RCCs of which one is a race, another is a class open to humans, and a third is unclear, potentially exclusive or potentially open to other races.

Sort of like when a sports team is introduced....they will say "LA Dodgers" and list the names of the players. Thus all the players were presented as a part of the team because they were presented together. So you were missing the forest cause you are focusing too much about looking at the leaves for fungi.

Cool story, but the 'team label' here only implies that the latter 2 RCCs were invented by the Ameki, since the Duelists are not racially exclusive.

[drewkitty ~..~]

there has been Psychic Char Classes from day one in Rifts. It is just they were hidden under a style filter that called them RCC's.

A 'filter' is presumably something used to obscure the truth, no? If the psychic classes in Rifts (Burster/Mind Melter) were RCCs from the beginning I'm not sure why we should call them a filter.

If the response is that BtS was using PCCs prior to Rifts, then PF was also using OCC for Mind Mage prior to that.

Note that the MM and Mystic classes were correctly labeled in the PFRPG MB. Which was before RUE, which KS admits to having a Rifts Style Filter on the classes.

Now If you look back at the Class labels in pre-RUE Rifts you can see that there is a style filter, shoves psychic char classes (which any psi-classes any race can be) into the term meaning the class is racially restricted to as single race (RCC). Which are diametricly exclusive of each other.

Note: When I talk about the Classes ....I Don't Care about what label they have, I look at the text and stats describing what the class is. If it is a PCC via that analizing of the class itself then I call it a PCC. If it is a RCC I call it a RCC. I also factor in the Context of the portion of the book the class is found in. (i.e.: that is why the (psi)gizmoteer is a Stoneman RCC and not a PCC.)

[Tor]

I never took RCC to mean restricted to a single race, where'd you get that? It even mentions that D-bees in addition to humans could be Psi-Stalkers in the RMB. Much like Mind Bleeders, that change to 'these are human mutants' came later, and wasn't universal since there are still other races which could select the RCC.

If you don't care about the technical labels and opt to ignore them to decide what is appropriate to apply instead, why apply anything at all?

I continue to disagree about your context here. There's no reason why Gizmoteering should be something that only Stonemen could learn. Why would they be able to teach humans to be Duelists but not Gizmoteers?