Juicer's auto dodge vs undodgeable attacks...

[keir451]

Recent discussions have got me wondering about the "official" stance regarding the Juicer's ability to autododge "ALL attacks" vs. attacks that are written as undodgeable. Which rule takes precedence?
I relaize that as a GM I can run it how i want but a clarification couldn't hurt.
Thanks in advance!

[Nekira Sudacne]

Autotdodge is a regular dodge that does not take up an attack.

Juicers have a special ability to allow them to dodge attacks they are not normally aware of. e.g. snipers, or an ambush from behind.

Autododge vs ALL attacks still requires dodge to be possible vs that attack. for example:

Some cosmic being throws a 20,000 square mile long rock at the juicer from orbit. clearly, this attack is not dodgeable.

Someone drops a nuke with a blast radius of 3 miles on the juicer. clearly, this attack is not dodgeable.

a firing squad of 100 people all shoot at the juicer from behind. all 100 attacks ARE dodgeable.

If a dodge could theoretically be applyed aginst the attack, juicers can dodge it. if dodge is inapplicable to the attack in any circumstance, juicers still can't dodge it. in short. Juicers have a special ability to apply autododge aginst attacks that normally negate a dodge aginst them but cannot permit a dodge aginst an attack where a dodge simply cannot be applyed.

EDIT: it's important to note that the juicers ability is to APPLY their autododge to attacks that normally cannot be dodged, NOT that autododge is normally useful aginst those attacks. in short, juicers autododge works exactly like everyone else's autododge, and a seperate but related OCC ability allows it to apply to surprise attacks/attacks from behind.

Thus, it makes more sense if you look at it as "Normal autododge+juicer special ability" instead of "Special Juicer Autododge". the autododge is not itself modified.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Recent discussions have got me wondering about the "official" stance regarding the Juicer's ability to auto-dodge "ALL attacks" vs. attacks that are written as un-dodgeable. Which rule takes precedence?
I realize that as a GM I can run it how i want but a clarification couldn't hurt.
Thanks in advance!

If the attack is un-dodgeable then while the char can go through the actions of trying to dodge the attack, but is ultimately futile.

If the attack is un-dodgeable because it is a 'surprise attack' like a sniper attack, then there is no opportunity to dodge.
-----------------
NS has described how auto-dodge works for Juicers.

Outside of juicers, auto-dodge have their own bonuses that are used instead of the dodge bonus.

[cornholioprime]

Autotdodge is a regular dodge that does not take up an attack.

Juicers have a special ability to allow them to dodge attacks they are not normally aware of. e.g. snipers, or an ambush from behind.

Autododge vs ALL attacks still requires dodge to be possible vs that attack. for example:

Some cosmic being throws a 20,000 square mile long rock at the juicer from orbit. clearly, this attack is not dodgeable.

Someone drops a nuke with a blast radius of 3 miles on the juicer. clearly, this attack is not dodgeable.

a firing squad of 100 people all shoot at the juicer from behind. all 100 attacks ARE dodgeable.

If a dodge could theoretically be applyed aginst the attack, juicers can dodge it. if dodge is inapplicable to the attack in any circumstance, juicers still can't dodge it. in short. Juicers have a special ability to apply autododge aginst attacks that normally negate a dodge aginst them but cannot permit a dodge aginst an attack where a dodge simply cannot be applyed.

EDIT: it's important to note that the juicers ability is to APPLY their autododge to attacks that normally cannot be dodged, NOT that autododge is normally useful aginst those attacks. in short, juicers autododge works exactly like everyone else's autododge, and a seperate but related OCC ability allows it to apply to surprise attacks/attacks from behind.

Thus, it makes more sense if you look at it as "Normal autododge+juicer special ability" instead of "Special Juicer Autododge". the autododge is not itself modified.

THIS is very, very important to note.

The "Autododge Mechanic" is an out-of-game abstract device for REAL players in the real world to use when playing their games, not a device that must match real-world logic.
And as long as the Authors don't make a particular Rule directly contradict other Rules within the game setting, a given power or ability doesn't necessarily have to make in-game sense, either.

[keir451]

Thank you, again, everyone! So the Juicers auto dodge would not be effective against, say, a volley of missiles. Using the game rule of 4 or more missiles being undodgeable.
That's where some of my questioning came about; the Juicer's Auto dodge states "ALL attacks", but (as we've noted) there are those few attacks that are stated to be undodgeable. So it just seemed to me that, perhaps, "ALL" wasn't quite as inclusive as it seemed.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Thank you, again, everyone! So the Juicers auto dodge would not be effective against, say, a volley of missiles. Using the game rule of 4 or more missiles being undodgeable.
That's where some of my questioning came about; the Juicer's Auto dodge states "ALL attacks", but (as we've noted) there are those few attacks that are stated to be undodgeable. So it just seemed to me that, perhaps, "ALL" wasn't quite as inclusive as it seemed.

correct. 4+ homing missiles, while it may be possible for the juicer to dodge a few, it will be impossible for him to dodge the volley as a whole, and when one denoates they all do, surrounding him in the blast radius. The juicers best bet is to try to shoot the volley down

[Tor]

I think we need more clarification on how volley-shooting works. Like if you get 1 or 2 shots (wasn't consistent on that) and if sometimes 2, when you do get that many.

I assume it works like a simultaneous attack, but against the missiles... except that some missiles can actually dodge when they are targetted for shoot-down, so it's confusing.

[Alrik Vas]

Personally i work auto dodge like auto-parry. The 4th attack isn't dodgeable.

[Dog_O_War]

I assume it works like a simultaneous attack, but against the missiles... except that some missiles can actually dodge when they are targetted for shoot-down, so it's confusing.

It doesn't work like a simultaneous attack.
For one, you can dodge and still shoot the missiles.
For two, what you mentioned above; some missiles can actually dodge.

I would have to re-check the missile rules, but I believe shooting them down is more akin to a parry than anything.

[drewkitty ~..~]

level 4 edit

[Dog_O_War]

snip... The 4th attack isn't dodge-able.

I would agree with you if you had said the 4th simultaneous attack isn't dodge-able. The exception to this would be unless the char has Multiple Dodge.

Otherwise I will have to say you are wrong.

You took what he wrote - an opinion on how he does things - and then said he was 'wrong'.

Personally i work auto dodge like auto-parry. The 4th attack isn't dodgeable.

Looking at the whole thing here, he said that he personally works it that way.


CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT.

[Alrik Vas]

Thank you, Dog.

[Tor]

It doesn't work like a simultaneous attack. For one, you can dodge and still shoot the missiles.

Could you clarify how you reach the conclusion that you can choose to both dodge and shoot the missile?

For two, what you mentioned above; some missiles can actually dodge.

I'm not clear how this contradicts the idea of treating the shooting of missiles as a simultaneous attack. This can be a situation where a simultaneous attacker is able to dodge a simultaneous attack.

I would have to re-check the missile rules, but I believe shooting them down is more akin to a parry than anything.

I've never gotten that impression. You're clearly rolling to strike, and clearly having to expend an action. It would be interesting to note who benefits from the 'defender wins ties' in this situation though.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Personally i work auto dodge like auto-parry. The 4th attack isn't dodge-able.

(after talking to him in PM's)
What he is talking about, is that "in RUE" Auto-Parry only works vs the 1st three attacks levied ageist the char in a single melee round. Thus they would need to "do something else" to defend vs the 4th attack. And then he is saying that he mirrors the Auto-Parry rule to Auto-Dodge to use the same mechanics for Auto-Dodge.

Analysis of the post vs what he meant: He just made some assumptions and thus left out some critical information from the post.

RUE states in the combat moves that....
~Auto-Dodge Works like a (auto-)Parry. Not using up an attack and only getting the AD & PP bonuses. And AD is only possible when there is some specific text granting it to the char.
~Parries can block physical attacks w/o using up an attack.
~Multiple Attackers, Can only parry vs three of those in the char's Line of sight.

So "in Rifts" with "RUE canon" AV is canonly correct. Not just what "he would do".

P.S.: I suspect the stated rules are just for 'non-paired weapons' usage.

[flatline]

Related question: when a juicer (or anyone, for that matter) dodges a missile (or grenade, or anything else that has an area effect), does the juicer escape the area effect? Or does he just escape a direct hit?

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

Related question: when a juicer (or anyone, for that matter) dodges a missile (or grenade, or anything else that has an area effect), does the juicer escape the area effect? Or does he just escape a direct hit?

--flatline

Both being my opinions.
~If they are the direct target of the missile they would only just dodge taking a direct hit.
~For grenades it would depend on how good of dodge roll is.

[Tor]

There are rules for grenades that relate the dodge roll to escaping the radius?

I always figured radius-escape is more of an issue of 'how far can you leap'. If you can leap 40ft but the radius is 50ft then no dice, still take 1/2 dmg. Or 1/4 with roll. Or 1/8 with breakfall. Or 1/16 if you also have that cool minor super power.

[Alrik Vas]

The way i always worked it was like this

Failing to dodge is obviously full damage. However, to escape the blast radius, refer to your speed attribute. If the value is higher than the blast radius, then it is possible to escape half damage. However, doing so requires your dodge roll to beat the original attack by 10 or more.

Though lately i've been thinking of lowering it to 5 or more, but likewise comparing the radius to half your SPD rather than the full value.

This is why it's often just better to cover up and Roll with Impact when somethingh nasty comes your way.

[flatline]

The way i always worked it was like this

Failing to dodge is obviously full damage. However, to escape the blast radius, refer to your speed attribute. If the value is higher than the blast radius, then it is possible to escape half damage. However, doing so requires your dodge roll to beat the original attack by 10 or more.

Though lately i've been thinking of lowering it to 5 or more, but likewise comparing the radius to half your SPD rather than the full value.

This is why it's often just better to cover up and Roll with Impact when somethingh nasty comes your way.

What's the attack roll for a command or timer detonated explosive? What value would you compare the dodge roll against?

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

What's the attack roll for a command or timer detonated explosive? What value would you compare the dodge roll against?

--flatline

There are some who wouldn't call it an "attack" in the traditional sense.

However, if you wanted to, i would apply the same rule of a penalty to dodge and make the attack roll a static 15 or 20. Arbitrary, i know, but i think it should be difficult.

And only someone with a juicer sense or 6th sense (or similar and applicable) would even get a roll if the bomb were undetected. If it was detected, you might not even need a dodge roll as you may have enough time to simply walk out of the AoE.

[Mouser13]

Can't remember where, but I seem to remember a rule that generally said can't overrides can. So in this case undodgeable would be not and their for you can't dodge missiles.

[Alrik Vas]

Can't remember where, but I seem to remember a rule that generally said can't overrides can. So in this case undodgeable would be not and their for you can't dodge missiles.

If you're referring to missile volleys as not dodgable, you would be right if the volley is over 3. At that point you have to use an action to try and shoot them down. I was talking about for volleys less than 4 or thrown grenades etc.

[Tor]

I figure Juicer's "any" power is in relation to stuff you normally couldn't dodge on the basis of not knowing about it, like surprise attacks, long-range sniping, etc.

Though I'm still not sure why Juicers can do it. At least with Crazies they're psychic.

[Giant2005]

What about a Juicer against an attack that is normally dodgable but that option has been removed due to combat conditions like a Simultaneous attack? Can a Juicer dodge a Simultaneous Attack?

[Nekira Sudacne]

What about a Juicer against an attack that is normally dodgable but that option has been removed due to combat conditions like a Simultaneous attack? Can a Juicer dodge a Simultaneous Attack?

No.

[Alrik Vas]

By the rules, that's correct.

Though i do all kinds of crazy crap in my games like allow characters to take penalties do perform certain things like that.

[Dog_O_War]

It doesn't work like a simultaneous attack. For one, you can dodge and still shoot the missiles.

Could you clarify how you reach the conclusion that you can choose to both dodge and shoot the missile?

There is a technique that allows you to dodge and come up shooting on the same action.

For two, what you mentioned above; some missiles can actually dodge.

I'm not clear how this contradicts the idea of treating the shooting of missiles as a simultaneous attack. This can be a situation where a simultaneous attacker is able to dodge a simultaneous attack.

You cannot dodge during a simultaneous attack, period. So if the missiles can dodge, then it cannot be a simultaneous attack.

I would have to re-check the missile rules, but I believe shooting them down is more akin to a parry than anything.

I've never gotten that impression. You're clearly rolling to strike, and clearly having to expend an action. It would be interesting to note who benefits from the 'defender wins ties' in this situation though.

Well for one, the action is more than the result.
A dodge avoids the attack by moving out of the way.
A parry intercepts the attack by physically interposing an object in front of it.

When you shoot missiles, you are physically interposing the shot from your weapon in front of the missile's path.

For two, you clearly have to spend an action to dodge or parry, unless you have an automatic defence. And like dodge and parry, there is such a thing as an automatic attack versus missiles.

[Alrik Vas]

It doesn't work like a simultaneous attack. For one, you can dodge and still shoot the missiles.

Could you clarify how you reach the conclusion that you can choose to both dodge and shoot the missile?

There is a technique that allows you to dodge and come up shooting on the same action.

That would be a combination dodge/shoot? I bet that's a gunslinger thing, and it's probably a class ability, not exactly in the realm of standard rules to deal with the situation. I mean, I allow crap like that, but the penalties are dangerous and it sure isn't RAW.

For two, what you mentioned above; some missiles can actually dodge.

I'm not clear how this contradicts the idea of treating the shooting of missiles as a simultaneous attack. This can be a situation where a simultaneous attacker is able to dodge a simultaneous attack.

You cannot dodge during a simultaneous attack, period. So if the missiles can dodge, then it cannot be a simultaneous attack.

Yeah, this gets ugly because the missiles ARE attacking at the moment you shoot back at them, so the idea that they're allowed to dodge, while they're attacking is a bit of a complication. The idea SEEMS to have been that it takes a moment for a missile to cover distance to target when it's fired from it's usual range, which is measured in miles rather than feet. Given that, you'd probably get a few shots off, they'd dodge...then when they're close enough to hit you with their next action, they'll plow into your body and blow you up.

however, if a missile were fired inside of thirty feet, it's general sense that you don't get a chance to blow it up with your gun. Though you're GM might be a nice guy.

I would have to re-check the missile rules, but I believe shooting them down is more akin to a parry than anything.

I've never gotten that impression. You're clearly rolling to strike, and clearly having to expend an action. It would be interesting to note who benefits from the 'defender wins ties' in this situation though.

Well for one, the action is more than the result.
A dodge avoids the attack by moving out of the way.
A parry intercepts the attack by physically interposing an object in front of it.

When you shoot missiles, you are physically interposing the shot from your weapon in front of the missile's path.

For two, you clearly have to spend an action to dodge or parry, unless you have an automatic defence. And like dodge and parry, there is such a thing as an automatic attack versus missiles.

Wait, what? Automatic Attack? No...it uses an action. It's not free.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It doesn't work like a simultaneous attack. For one, you can dodge and still shoot the missiles.

Could you clarify how you reach the conclusion that you can choose to both dodge and shoot the missile?

There is a technique that allows you to dodge and come up shooting on the same action.

That would be a combination dodge/shoot? I bet that's a gunslinger thing, and it's probably a class ability, not exactly in the realm of standard rules to deal with the situation. I mean, I allow crap like that, but the penalties are dangerous and it sure isn't RAW.

Actually it's a Sharpshooting trick shot, not gunslinger exclusive, but also not something anyone can do as you need to be a man of arms and spend 2 OCC related skills to get it.

[Dog_O_War]

Wait, what? Automatic Attack? No...it uses an action. It's not free.

It comes from equipment and happens automatically. Various PAs (well, one that I know of for sure has it) does this for the wearer.

[Alrik Vas]

That was a power armor specifically designed to defeat automatic dodge, though. I don't think it applies to shooting missiles down. Unless there's a different PA that also specifically states it has automated systems that attack missiles, which seems to make sense (i would make them like that, personally). Though that's pretty specific as well.

Most characters are limited to using an action to shoot down missiles.

[Alrik Vas]

It doesn't work like a simultaneous attack. For one, you can dodge and still shoot the missiles.

Could you clarify how you reach the conclusion that you can choose to both dodge and shoot the missile?

There is a technique that allows you to dodge and come up shooting on the same action.

That would be a combination dodge/shoot? I bet that's a gunslinger thing, and it's probably a class ability, not exactly in the realm of standard rules to deal with the situation. I mean, I allow crap like that, but the penalties are dangerous and it sure isn't RAW.

Actually it's a Sharpshooting trick shot, not gunslinger exclusive, but also not something anyone can do as you need to be a man of arms and spend 2 OCC related skills to get it.

I don't recall you actually getting to dodge with that ability. i thought it just took away the movement penalty for shooting? Well, if it does work like you're saying (which, i don't really doubt you) then it's nice to know i've been doing it more or less right.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't recall you actually getting to dodge with that ability. i thought it just took away the movement penalty for shooting? Well, if it does work like you're saying (which, i don't really doubt you) then it's nice to know i've been doing it more or less right.

[/quote]

Actually, "Dodge, roll, and come up shooting" is never actually defined in what it's effects are, so any houserule works, as the GM has to fill in the blank with something.

[Dog_O_War]

That was a power armor specifically designed to defeat automatic dodge, though. I don't think it applies to shooting missiles down. Unless there's a different PA that also specifically states it has automated systems that attack missiles, which seems to make sense (i would make them like that, personally). Though that's pretty specific as well.

It is a coalition PA that does it automatically, and I believe it's different than the Juicer killing one; I am fairly sure it's the Glitterboy Killer.

But as to it being rather specific; it's no more specific than the sharp-shooting skill that allows one to dodge and shoot, or the hand-to-hand ability from Commando that allows you to autododge.

Effectively, a specific thing is needed to perform certain tasks; but these things are not so specific as to be unique in their existance, which validates the mention and use of them.

[Alrik Vas]

Validating the use of something doesn't necessarily make it more relavent though. Usually, aside Automatic Parry, all Auto-abilities are highly restricted to specific groups of classes.

Plenty of people play said classes, but more people don't than do in my experience, and i've played a lot of tech/special forces type games. Using an attack to shoot down missiles, ironically might be pretty rare, but that is the standard defense that everyone with a gun can use regardless of class abilities. That's all i'm saying.

[Dog_O_War]

Validating the use of something doesn't necessarily make it more relavent though. Usually, aside Automatic Parry, all Auto-abilities are highly restricted to specific groups of classes.

Plenty of people play said classes, but more people don't than do in my experience, and i've played a lot of tech/special forces type games. Using an attack to shoot down missiles, ironically might be pretty rare, but that is the standard defense that everyone with a gun can use regardless of class abilities. That's all i'm saying.

No, actually you said that "it uses an attack" to which I replied "no, there is such a thing as an auto-missile defence" and showed that it wasn't just some specific person that could do it, but anyone who bothered to go that route.

[Alrik Vas]

It's existence still doesn't make it a prevailing ability, let's talk about something more constructive.

[Tor]

What about a Juicer against an attack that is normally dodgable but that option has been removed due to combat conditions like a Simultaneous attack? Can a Juicer dodge a Simultaneous Attack?

No.

Just to play devil's advocate here, with RUE further solidifying a line between dodge and auto-dodge, who is to say "cannot dodge" even applies to auto-dodge?

Being blind inflicts penalties to strike/parry/dodge. It doesn't explicitly penalize other things like back flip or body throw. If various bonuses to dodge don't help auto-dodge, why would penalties?

If SAs say no dodging, why would a penalization to plain ol' dodge penalize the all-distinctive auto-dodge?

Division works both ways, I say. Without qualifier we should assume any statements about dodge mean normal dodges and not auto-dodges.

There is a technique that allows you to dodge and come up shooting on the same action.

Interesting, did not think of that. Isn't it something like a wild shot though? Although I recall some other technique which prevents it from being wild... hm.

cannot dodge during a simultaneous attack, period. So if the missiles can dodge, then it cannot be a simultaneous attack.

Smart missiles are the only ones which can dodge, and they have their own independent attacks per melee round, so in their case, they would be treated as a separate entity when targetted (presumably even rolling their own initiative).

It may be that smart missiles can't actually use their dodge if targetted by someone they're in the process of attacking. Perhaps their dodge is to prevent being targetted by other opponents they're not in the process of targetting.

Smart missiles actually have a lot of holes in regard to their function, like how long it takes them to turn around and attack the same opponent if they're dodged or miss, etc. Was never too clear on that.

A dodge avoids the attack by moving out of the way. A parry intercepts the attack by physically interposing an object in front of it. When you shoot missiles, you are physically interposing the shot from your weapon in front of the missile's path.

I agree that it's closer to a parry than a dodge, but I was saying it is closer to a strike than a parry, so we're discussing different comparisons here.

you clearly have to spend an action to dodge or parry, unless you have an automatic defence. And like dodge and parry, there is such a thing as an automatic attack versus missiles.

True, but it's rare.

I guess that's a tech example out there I've overlooked (some kind of automatic AI defense out there?). If we're going to use rare examples, there's also such a thing as automatic attacks versus attacks. Such as the talent Dervish Dance.

I was also thinking there might be a spell that does something similar but I could just be having another game's spell leaking in.

a technique that allows you to dodge and come up shooting on the same action.

That would be a combination dodge/shoot? I bet that's a gunslinger thing

Actually it's a Sharpshooting trick shot, not gunslinger exclusive, but also not something anyone can do as you need to be a man of arms and spend 2 OCC related skills to get it.

I'm thinking Sharpshooting might've been changed at some-point. Whipped out CB1 to find this ability. It mentions the ability to roll/somersault and come up shooting as 1 of 6 trick shots a player might select, but not dodge. I gotta keep track of which book has the up-to-date version of this I guess... I want to say Warlords might have it...okay Pg 200 has "WP Trick Shooting" (we can say this differs from WP Sharpshooter since it's differently named) which does add "dodge" preceding roll/somersault... but it doesn't say anything about it only taking 1 melee action.

Could someone point me in the direction of where it explicitly says it only costs 1 attack? I had thought that these moves implied that normally if you made a shot after a roll or somersault (and later, a dodge) that the shot would be wild as you recovered from the momentum.

"Dodge, roll, and come up shooting" is never actually defined in what it's effects are, so any houserule works

The obvious thing to me is this being an 'ability' is a very roundabout way of introducing a penalty to firing guns after dodge/roll maneuvers (somersault only being a maneuver in N&SS)

It is a coalition PA that does it automatically, and I believe it's different than the Juicer killing one; I am fairly sure it's the Glitterboy Killer.

Checked the GBK, don't see anything about automatic missile-shooting systems, must be some other PA or bot if the CS have developed this tech.

you said that "it uses an attack" to which I replied "no, there is such a thing as an auto-missile defence" and showed that it wasn't just some specific person that could do it, but anyone who bothered to go that route.

"showed" used loosely until we can narrow down what tech bestows the auto-missile defense. "anyone" meaning anyone who uses this tech I suppose? Your reference is on the edge of feeling familiar but I've learned not to trust my sense of familiarity...

It's existence still doesn't make it a prevailing ability, let's talk about something more constructive.

The existence itself is worth noting, but unless we can come up with more than 1 instance of auto-missile-shootdown (and we're still waiting on the first's page number) I'm going to say Dervish Dance balances it out as an example of an automatic attack.

Heck, the automatic body flip itself kinda functions like an automatic attack since it inflicts damage, too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

What about a Juicer against an attack that is normally dodgable but that option has been removed due to combat conditions like a Simultaneous attack? Can a Juicer dodge a Simultaneous Attack?

No.

Just to play devil's advocate here, with RUE further solidifying a line between dodge and auto-dodge, who is to say "cannot dodge" even applies to auto-dodge?

Being blind inflicts penalties to strike/parry/dodge. It doesn't explicitly penalize other things like back flip or body throw. If various bonuses to dodge don't help auto-dodge, why would penalties?

If SAs say no dodging, why would a penalization to plain ol' dodge penalize the all-distinctive auto-dodge?

Division works both ways, I say. Without qualifier we should assume any statements about dodge mean normal dodges and not auto-dodges.

This really isn't worth hashing out. your devils advocates arguments are generally attempts to generate arguments for their own sake. I argue to come to a resolution, not to merely drag out a discussion. Suffice it to say if you don't want to apply penalties to dodge to auto dodge in games you GM, be my guest.

Actually it's a Sharpshooting trick shot, not gunslinger exclusive, but also not something anyone can do as you need to be a man of arms and spend 2 OCC related skills to get it.

I'm thinking Sharpshooting might've been changed at some-point. Whipped out CB1 to find this ability. It mentions the ability to roll/somersault and come up shooting as 1 of 6 trick shots a player might select, but not dodge. I gotta keep track of which book has the up-to-date version of this I guess... I want to say Warlords might have it...okay Pg 200 has "WP Trick Shooting" (we can say this differs from WP Sharpshooter since it's differently named)

W.P Sharpshooter costs 2 skills and gives you a bonus to inititive based on PP in addition to a trick shot and is only selectable by men-of-arms., whereas W.P. trick shot only gives the trick shot. That's the differnece.

which does add "dodge" preceding roll/somersault... but it doesn't say anything about it only taking 1 melee action.

Dosn't say it takes any actions, either. or 2. or a full melee round. isn't vaugeness wonderful?

Could someone point me in the direction of where it explicitly says it only costs 1 attack? I had thought that these moves implied that normally if you made a shot after a roll or somersault (and later, a dodge) that the shot would be wild as you recovered from the momentum.

As written it basically does nothing as it appears to confer no advantage nor does it take away any explicit disadvantage. doing anything with it involves a houserule. while it's true you could argue that rolling with punch/somersault causes the next shot to be wild, the rules never say this. it's annoyingly vauge.

"Dodge, roll, and come up shooting" is never actually defined in what it's effects are, so any houserule works

The obvious thing to me is this being an 'ability' is a very roundabout way of introducing a penalty to firing guns after dodge/roll maneuvers (somersault only being a maneuver in N&SS)

and fails in that task, as it still dosn't say what penalties it's supposed to negate. whatever you rule will be a houserule.

[Dog_O_War]

What about a Juicer against an attack that is normally dodgable but that option has been removed due to combat conditions like a Simultaneous attack? Can a Juicer dodge a Simultaneous Attack?

No.

Just to play devil's advocate here, with RUE further solidifying a line between dodge and auto-dodge, who is to say "cannot dodge" even applies to auto-dodge?

R:UE doesn't do that.

you said that "it uses an attack" to which I replied "no, there is such a thing as an auto-missile defence" and showed that it wasn't just some specific person that could do it, but anyone who bothered to go that route.

"showed" used loosely until we can narrow down what tech bestows the auto-missile defense. "anyone" meaning anyone who uses this tech I suppose? Your reference is on the edge of feeling familiar but I've learned not to trust my sense of familiarity...

I will check and confirm when I get home.

[Tor]

This really isn't worth hashing out.

What penalties or bonuses apply to auto-dodge is very much worth hashing out to anyone incorporating the ability into gameplay.

your devils advocates arguments are generally attempts to generate arguments for their own sake.

Actually not true. When I say 'just to play DA' it's actually more of an expression. I am not literally actually bringing it up to play for the sake of debate (which is very much hashworthy though) but because it's a criticism of the double standards we seemingly apply to AD.

I argue to come to a resolution, not to merely drag out a discussion. Suffice it to say if you don't want to apply penalties to dodge to auto dodge in games you GM, be my guest.

Guess I'm wondering about the canonicity of either approach. I like old-canon where there was no bonus distinction, good times.

Dosn't say it takes any actions, either. or 2. or a full melee round. isn't vaugeness wonderful?

That's why I figure to simply have things cost what they usually do unless otherwise indicated, so 2 actions. The phrasing, if we interpret it to mean that it can be done in 1 action, actually means ANYONE can do it in 1 action, just that sharpshooters can do so without penalty. Being that dodge/strike isn't a standard ability, and actually a rare N&SS thing that's pretty sucky and bonusless even with superior training, am thinking it's not so widespread.

As written it basically does nothing as it appears to confer no advantage nor does it take away any explicit disadvantage. doing anything with it involves a houserule. while it's true you could argue that rolling with punch/somersault causes the next shot to be wild, the rules never say this.

The previous rules never said this, but the introduction of this ability could be perceived as introducing the rule by its nature of phrasing.

"Rolling and then shooting is normally a wild shot (-6 to strike)" is essentially what that Trick-Shot ability is introducing as a rule. The -6 penalty is removed by those who have the trick.

it still dosn't say what penalties it's supposed to negate. whatever you rule will be a houserule.

Actually the 'normally a wild shot' does tell us the penalties, since wild shots have a standard penalty.

RUE further solidifying a line between dodge and auto-dodge

R:UE doesn't do that.

Lists them as separate entries and emphasizes different bonuses, seems like line-solidification.

[Alrik Vas]

I'd rule the roll/shoot would be a dodge shoot that you can do from a prone position. Kind of situational. Though, in all honesty, i'd actually make it just dodge/shoot, half bonuses to both (without it being a wild shot, clearly).

[Tor]

One thing we know for certain is that ANYONE can perform the dodge shoot. It's an ability that is normally wild and is non-wild for sharpshooters.

The ability only talks about bonus modification, so however many attacks it takes to do this maneuver should be constant for everyone.

If it's 2, this means we are actually going to be penalizing the firing accuracy of people taking evasive maneuvers in firefights... which I like. It also means a penalty was omitted from the main rules.

If it's 1, this means that people are going to essentially get an auto-dodge (or auto-attack, depending on how you look at it) for merit of being able to do a combined action. This tactic would allow people to defend without totally sacrificing offense, just getting diminished accuracy.

If it's 1, it would also mean that this would be a simultaneous attack... right? So while you get a penalty (or lack of bonuses) to strike, the person you roll/shoot can't dodge?

[Dog_O_War]

RUE further solidifying a line between dodge and auto-dodge

R:UE doesn't do that.

Lists them as separate entries and emphasizes different bonuses, seems like line-solidification.

"seems like".

In order to discern the difference between the two, we have to be told that Auto-Dodge uses a different bonus structure; that would make it so similar that someone had to tell us the difference between them in order to tell them apart.

[Alrik Vas]

The line between Auto dodge and regular dodge is completely solidified. One costs an attack, the other doesn't. Pretty simple, guys.

[Tor]

That difference is shared between untrained parry and automatic parry.

The line between dodge and auto-dodge is thicker, because of the different bonus structure.

[Alrik Vas]

When it says "dodge bonus" or "auto-dodge bonus" do you wonder which applies?

I can see how it would be confusing, but when you think about it...most come to the conclusion that they wouldn't double up on bonuses for the move that doesn't cost an action (though i think they should have just given it normal dodge bonuses and have done with it, or given parry and auto-parry different bonuses. Consistency is nice).

[Dog_O_War]

The line between Auto dodge and regular dodge is completely solidified. One costs an attack, the other doesn't. Pretty simple, guys.

My response was contextual; the quote you're responding to does not contain the context.
This is what Tor said originally to these responses,

What about a Juicer against an attack that is normally dodgable but that option has been removed due to combat conditions like a Simultaneous attack? Can a Juicer dodge a Simultaneous Attack?

No.

Just to play devil's advocate here, with RUE further solidifying a line between dodge and auto-dodge, who is to say "cannot dodge" even applies to auto-dodge?

In the context of this; R:UE does not distinguish between dodge and auto-dodge when stating that a person cannot dodge, leaving no solidifying line between the two, as I said previously.

[Tor]

RUE has elsewhere made a distinction between auto-dodge and dodge as different things though. So why would a mention of a "dodge" have any relation to an auto-dodge when they're so distinctive as to have different bonuses?

It would be like saying that 'can't parry' means 'can't backflip'.

[Dog_O_War]

RUE has elsewhere made a distinction between auto-dodge and dodge as different things though. So why would a mention of a "dodge" have any relation to an auto-dodge when they're so distinctive as to have different bonuses?

It would be like saying that 'can't parry' means 'can't backflip'.

Firstly, your comparison has no traction; "can't parry and can't backflip" are two different categories of things.
The difference here is akin to ranged attacks and hand-to-hand attacks.

Otherwise, work your way out of this;

The combat sequence never states that a person can "auto-dodge"; it is never, ever listed as an available option for a person to perform as a defence in the steps of combat.

So either a person can never perform an auto-dodge, and thus it really doesn't matter what kind of line is drawn between the two, or it does in-fact say under auto-dodge, that it is a dodge that does not take an attack and draws its bonuses from different sources.

So which is it?
That a person can never perform an auto-dodge, because the rules never say you can due to this "line" that divides it from regular dodge; or
that an auto-dodge is a regular dodge with different details and that line does not exist.