Defending against Soul Drinking Rune Weapons

[Tor]

I'm thinking when I get a chance to read Revised I should do a breakdown of all the changes that happened to the vamps between the editions. Although knowing some folk, they'll pretend it was like that way all along even if it wasn't.

[Hotrod]

There are two ways in which a soul-drinker could be overcome directly.

Prevention:
In an Anti-Magic Cloud, soul-drinking should not work, unless the weapon itself gets a save (debatable), and even then its powers are supposed to be at half strength, duration, et cetera (How this works on soul drinking would be up to the GM; perhaps the saving throw threshold would be halved?)

After the Fact:
I have only one theoretical way in which the power of soul drinking could be overcome: Destroy the soul drinking weapon.

You'd need a Cauldron of Destruction (10th level Scathach or higher in England can make them). You'd also need a way to hold the soul drinker in place in the cauldron while it's slowly destroyed over six hours or so (If the weapon has other powers it can use by itself, it will likely elect to do so).

Then you have to hope that the "drunk" souls are not utterly consumed, but rather imprisoned. If that is the case, then it may be that, with the soul-drinker destroyed, the slain might be resurrected. It's a long shot.

[Tor]

By useless do you mean unable to drink more souls until the following day, or something more?

Hotrod I'm not sure if I've read anything about souls being destroyed (utterly consumed) by rune weapons so I am inclined to think they're just imprisoned like the souls used to make the rune weapons. The Dyval stuff about them being able to remove souls from the pools and later release them implies they can be kept alive in the weapon at least for some period of time, and even released.

[Dog_O_War]

I tend to view soul drinkers as being useless after having had it's fill of souls. I've seen No rule to state otherwise.

So true.

I tend to view guns as being useless after having spent all their ammo.

And explosives as being useless once they've gone off.

And luck as being useless once it runs out.

[Tor]

Bows are also less useful when they run out of arrows or break. Swords are less useful when they're disarmed. Kicking is less useful when a vampire gnaws off your foot.

[Glistam]

Armageddon unlimited has relaxed the rules on soul eaters and has added weapons that can retrieve the lost souls

Very interesting. I think those rules work well for a super-heroic setting. Much better than the normal soul drinking rules. I don't know if they are "new rules" for all soul drinkers, or if they are only applicable to the couple of weapons these rules are printed under.

[Glistam]

The spell Featherlight makes a weapon "useless" - that may work. A successful Reality Flux spell against the weapon will make it inflict S.D instead of M.D., so you'd only have to be concerned if the enemy has a high supernatural strength (which I know they will, I'm just throwing this option out for the sake of others).

What book're Featherlight'n Reality Flux originally from again?

Rifts World Book 16: Federation of Magic. Reprinted in the Rifts: Book of Magic.

[Tor]

The rules in Dyval apply to ALL soul drinkers, so in theory any soul drinker can give up a soul, though a GM could institute some kind of time limit (kind of like if you stay in Chronus' belly too long, you go insane or get dissolved) plus the soul that powers the rune weapon presumably has the final say on whether or not it releases it, so you may have some roleplaying to do.

Thanks, forgot they were in FoM. Reality Flux is on pg 151. Worth noting that a rune weapon would get a savings throw versus it though. Though I'm not sure what bonuses the being inside the rune weapon would get vs magic since it doesn't often come up.

As for Featherlight (pg 136) I really have a problem with the way this spell works. I think anyone who understands physics would. First off, it usually isn't a weapon's WEIGHT that makes it inflict damage. Gravity can play a part, sure (like firing arrows at an arc so they gain acceleration as they fall back down, or lifting up a mace and then combinging your arm strength with the downward pull of gravity) but it's usually moreso the MASS that plays a bigger part (you overcome inertia to get it accelerated and it builds momentum).

Even if we change the 'weight' to 'mass' (negating mass also negates weight since mass is a component of gravitational acceleration) we're still left with the problem of 'why'.

Negating mass and momentum would lessen the effect of swings and stuff, but not utterly remove it. Even if your own acceleration of a weapon doesn't build up the weapon's momentum, the arms holding it still build up momentum and someone should still be able to exert their strength through the weapon.

Things like laser swords, psi-swords or light blades presumably lack mass yet can still be swung as weapons and inflict damage.

Mass is a component of physical weapons, so negating it SHOULD lessen the damage, but not utterly remove the damage.

Slicing weapons would be a good example of this. Even if the weapon lacked mass, the person could exert the mass of their arm through the weapon to create enough pressure to slice someone.

If Featherlight indeed underly negates the ability to inflict damage then we should rename the spell and explain how it works through some other means than weight or mass reduction because the mechanics of weapons just don't work that way.

[Alrik Vas]

Point: Tor.

Featherlight is indeed bunk.

[Tor]

Yeah and what's with that bit about guns blowing around in the breeze and being hard to aim? It makes utterly no sense. A gun being lighter would make it easier to stabilize, not harder. It's the strength of the hands gripping a weapon that aims it, not the weight.

It's fine if you're say, making an entire robot light, because then yeah, their weight would form less friction with the ground and the wind could blow them over. But it wouldn't work with something that retains their mass/weight (like a person holding a weapon) anchoring it in space.

The whole spell really should be reinvented. To be generous you could say (from mass reduction, not weight) no damage from ranged (well, maybe 1 dmg if it's an arrow or spear with a sharp tip, a feather's mass is still more than nothing) or chain weapons (since you can't directly exert force through them, they rely on momentum) 1/8 dmg from blunt melee weapons, 1/4 dmg from slashing weapons, 1/2 dmg from stabbing weapons. Reduction would only be to the base, and not reduce any damage bonus from PS, nor apply to energy components of weapons.

Penalties to aim could apply initially but with practise should evaporate, and there should be no penalties from modern weapons, if anything it should be a bonus to strike because your arms are less fatigued holding up the weapon, freeing up strength to keep a steady aim.

Another effect of featherlight I think not much considered on is the effect of range. How much further would thrown objects or launched arrows go if they weighed less and the normal force used to launch them could send them further? On the other hand, how much more would they waver when their lower mass matched up with the mass of air and wind resistance?

I could see a massive extension in range, but an accompanying huge increase in strike penalties. Probably the Weight Manipulation power in HU could give some guidelines too.

[Eashamahel]

I suppose that after a Soul Drinking weapon has used it's daily 'charge(s)' it could be considered useless, assuming it's only use was to drink souls and not kill people/perform the role of a sword that does more damage than a main battle tank...

Also, you could send 100 peasants, and when the guy with the sword is done killing them, he could still use the Soul Drinker on you. Is there some belief that the sword MUST use it's ability on the first people it kills every day or something?

[Eashamahel]

Peasants with millions of dollars of equipment are either not peasants, or come from a kingdom beyond imagining...

[Dog_O_War]

Peasants with millions of dollars of equipment are either not peasants, or come from a kingdom beyond imagining...

The Coalition.

There are more than 500,000 suits of SAMAS PA just floating around, of which apparently is seeing a largely civilian use.

[Eashamahel]

haha! The Coalition IS a kingdom beyond imagining. They have the resources to equip most of their infantry with SAMAS, no real reason not to, and they don't, because... er.... Didn't really think that one through when it was being written!

[Tor]

SAMAS are mobile. The CS is concerned about endowing too much of their army with the freedom it allows. Having resources doesn't mean you want to trust new unblooded grunts with a significant amount of them.

[Eashamahel]

It's really not worth getting into that conversation in a thread that's not devoted to it.

[Glistam]

To defend against a souldrinking weapon you could also roll to parry or dodge. Entangle is a fair, often overlooked action as well.

[Tor]

To defend against a souldrinking weapon you could also roll to parry or dodge. Entangle is a fair, often overlooked action as well.

Sucks if someone simultaneously attacks you with a rune weapon though.

[Glistam]

To defend against a souldrinking weapon you could also roll to parry or dodge. Entangle is a fair, often overlooked action as well.

Sucks if someone simultaneously attacks you with a rune weapon though.

If you stay on the defensive that isn't a concern.

[Dog_O_War]

SAMAS are mobile. The CS is concerned about endowing too much of their army with the freedom it allows. Having resources doesn't mean you want to trust new unblooded grunts with a significant amount of them.

No. They simply replaced the old models with the newer Super SAMAS and the Smiling Jack.

They didn't just want to spend the resources melting the old SAMAS down, so they sold them off to civilians and civilian-contractors (re: the rich, the police, etc...)

[Alrik Vas]

Maybe start a new thread. Getting off topic here.

As for Soul Drinkers, i think defense agaisnt them has been pretty well-covered. Now, let's talk about how to circumvent dodgy players that negate our GM 1-Shot-Kill. Dirty players.

[Tor]

No. They simply replaced the old models with the newer Super SAMAS and the Smiling Jack. They didn't just want to spend the resources melting the old SAMAS down, so they sold them off to civilians and civilian-contractors (re: the rich, the police, etc...)

I don't see why you say 'no' as it could be multiple reasons rather than an either/or. A third reason could be the difficulty in training people to pilot power armor.

If you stay on the defensive that isn't a concern.

True, but if all you do is parry then inevitably you're probably going to get whittled down Even if you don't have (or voluntarily give up) initiative, a guy can still SA you if you're attacking second-turn

[Dog_O_War]

No. They simply replaced the old models with the newer Super SAMAS and the Smiling Jack. They didn't just want to spend the resources melting the old SAMAS down, so they sold them off to civilians and civilian-contractors (re: the rich, the police, etc...)

I don't see why you say 'no' as it could be multiple reasons rather than an either/or. A third reason could be the difficulty in training people to pilot power armor.

I said 'no' because they gave a reason.
And if they were afraid to endow their army with 'the freedom it allows' [a SAMAS] then they wouldn't have replaced them.
Additionally, did you know? Every CS grunt can pilot powered armour and robots.
Every.
Single.
One.
Those grunts can't read (most of them, anyways), but they can pilot powered armour.

[Eashamahel]

Indeed, every Grunt could be given a SAMAS suit and operate it, they already have the skills.

[Tor]

True... but they still don't have them. Why would the CS be selling off old models instead of giving the old SAMAS (still superior to the new-style CS body armor) to their grunts? Obviously because they can't be trusted with them under normal circumstances.

[eliakon]

lets try to keep this on souldrinkers, instead of drifting off into a totally unrelated (and highly charged) topic like CS/tactics/logistics. If there is interest in such.....start a topic on it.

[Qev]

Line your armor with a paper armor undersuit that's been covered in silver runes. Rune weapon can no longer draw blood, problem solved.

[cosmicfish]

Most of these responses are general defense options - more armor, harder to hit, talk him down, etc. The unique part of the Soul Drinker is, well, the soul drinking, and the only defense against that is to improve your bonus against magic. You will still fail at least 5% of the time (in theory, at least), but that is still better than nothing!

[Qev]

Have your character's blood removed and replaced with a synthetic substitute. Soul drinking requires drawing the victim's blood, but it's not in their body, it's been sold from some blood bank someplace.

[Hotrod]

Any power that alters one's physical structure or transfers it into a medium that does not bleed would also work, by that logic. So would being a borg.

[Dog_O_War]

True... but they still don't have them. Why would the CS be selling off old models instead of giving the old SAMAS (still superior to the new-style CS body armor) to their grunts? Obviously because they can't be trusted with them under normal circumstances.

Why is it "obvious"?

[Tor]

Line your armor with a paper armor undersuit that's been covered in silver runes. Rune weapon can no longer draw blood, problem solved.

If the rune weapon's pressure shoves that paper through your internal organs and out the other side of you, it might.