roleplaying seeds: Tirolian Food?

[glitterboy2098]

one of the nice things about roleplaying games over TVshows is that we get a chance to explore outside the frame of the footage, and fill in details we never saw for the societies and setting. so, with that in mind, i ask a simple question with the idea of sparking ideas to fill in those gaps.

What is the food of the Tirolians like?


this is something we don't see in the show, so we pretty much have a blank slate.


personally, i find myself drawn to certain elements of the Battlestar Galactica reboot. for those who didn't notice, the food on that show tended to be things like noodles (with real world Ramen packets showing up for some scenes), and other more asian style foodstuffs. certainly it helped to make the society seem a bit more exotic. the use of 'Ambrosia', which was an alcoholic beverage with traits of both wine and hard liquor depending on the scene helped set them apart as well. (Ambrosia may well have been a brandy like beverage, given how it was used) of course, eventually the fleet in BSG was eating a lot of Algae and Algae based synthetic foodstuffs..

for Tirolians i'd adopt some similar elements. Various forms of noodles being a common foodstuff for the common people (perhaps similar to the 'flavored noodles' used in japan, where the flavor usually added by sauces are instead found in the noodle itself), using processed synthetics to provide protein. something similar to BSG's Ambrosia certainly would fit as well.

anyone else have suggestions?

[SRoss]

Given their skills at cloning and the fact that in the series, books and comics, we've never seen or heard of Tiroian Farms, I guessing a lot of vat grown foods perhaps some foods imported from other worlds in the Empire. The quality and type varying by your status in society.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm thinking less about composition and more about presentation actually.. though composition would count if you think there are going to be exotic foodstuffs involved.
obviously on the ships the food would be heavily synthetic, using lots of substitutes for meat and stuff. but what would it be designed to look/taste like? and presumably their planetary populations would have more natural ingredients, and that style of Cuisine would be what the ship-foodstuffs would be made to replicate.

basically, wondering more about Cuisine.. when a tirolian sits down to dinner, what is on his plates/bowls? what does it look like? what kind of flavors do they prefer? etc.

[ShadowLogan]

Basically I would put their Food to be presented more as derived from whatever their Earth Ethnic group happens to be. IF one is actually sticking to Terrans and Tirolians have some common history at some point as the explanation for our identical genetics, as opposed to a coincidence of evolution (or a result of their bio-genetic engineering, of which the Masters report none in humans).

In this way it can be both familiar and exotic due to substitutions from Tirolian ecology.

[SRoss]

How about this?

Modified from Ancient Roman Cuisine

Meals

Back in the Tirolian Republic, flat, round loaves made of a cereal grain closely related to wheat, with a bit of salt were eaten; among the upper classes, eggs, cheese, and honey, along with milk and fruit were also consumed. In the Imperial period, bread made of wheat was introduced; with time, more and more wheaten foods began to replaced the flat bread. The bread was sometimes dipped in wine and eaten with olives, cheese, crackers, and grapes. They also ate a boar type creature, sausages, small birds, fish, and shellfish and analogues to beef, pork, lamb, duck, goose, chickens.

Dinner

Among the members of the upper classes, who did not engage in manual labor, it became customary to schedule all business obligations in the morning. After noon, the last responsibilities would be discharged, and a visit would be made to the baths. Around 2 p.m., dinner would begin. This meal could last until late in the night, especially if guests were invited, and would often be followed by a round of drinks.

In the period of the early republic, but also in later periods (for the working classes), dinner essentially consisted of a kind of porridge. The simplest kind would be made from flat bread, water, salt and fat. The more sophisticated kind was made with olive oil, with an accompaniment of assorted vegetables when available. The richer classes ate their porridge with eggs, cheese, and honey and it was also occasionally served with meat or fish.

Over the course of the Republican period, dinner developed into 2 courses: a main course and a dessert with fruit and seafood (e.g. molluscs, shrimp). By the end of the Republic, it was usual for the meal to be served in 3 parts: 1st course (gustatio), main course (primae mensae), and dessert (secundae mensae).

Table Culture

Growing wealth led to ever larger and more sophisticated meals. Nutritional value was not regarded as important: on the contrary, the gourmets preferred food with low food energy and nutrients. Easily digestible foods and diuretic stimulants were highly regarded.

The dinner was consumed in a special dining room, which later was to be called triclinium. Here one would lie down on a specially designed couch, the lectus triclinaris. Around the round table, the mensa, three of these lecti were arranged in the shape of a horseshoe, so that clones could easily serve, and a maximum of three diners would recline at each lectus. More tables for the beverages stood beside the couches. All heads were oriented towards the central table, with left elbows propped on a cushion and feet at the outside of the dinner couch. In this fashion at most nine people could dine together at one table. Further guests had to sit on chairs. Clones normally stood.

Feet and hands were washed before the dinner. The food would be taken with the fingertips and two kinds of spoons, the larger ligula and the smaller cochlear with a needle-thin grip, which was used as a prong when eating snails and molluscs, in practice substituting for the modern fork. At the table, larger pieces would be cut up to be served on smaller plates. After each course the fingers were washed again and napkins (mappae) were customary to wipe one's mouth. Guests could also bring their own mappae to take home the leftovers from the meal or small gifts (the apophoreta). Everything that could not be eaten (e.g. bones and shells) was thrown onto the floor, whence it was swept away by a clone.

In summer, it was popular to eat outside. Many houses on Tirol had stone couches at a particularly beautiful spot in the garden for just that purpose. People lay down to eat only on formal occasions. If the meal was routine, they ate while seated or even standing.

Entertainment

During a dinner for guests, muses would perform and dinner conversation played an important role. Dances were unusual, as it was considered improper and would not mix well with table manners, although during the comissatio this habit was often disregarded. To leave the table for bodily functions was considered inappropriate and restraining oneself was considered good manners. After the main course, during a pause, an offering was made to the Lares, the spirits of the house. This offering normally consisted of meat, cake and wine. The cake was usually coloured with saffron.

Foods and Ingredients

The Tirolian diet resembles a classic Mediterranean diet, but without several familiar foods common in Italian cuisine today. The Tirolians did not have analogues to spinach or eggplant and tomatoes or capsicum peppers (which only appeared on Tirol following the arrival of the UEEF). There were also few citrus fruits. However, other items that are staples of modern Italian cooking were present on Tirol; more than 30 varieties of olive, 40 kinds of pear, figs (native and imported from off world), and a wide variety of vegetables (54 cultivated and 43 wild vegetables on Tirol). Some of these vegetables are no longer present in the modern Tirol, while others have undergone significant changes; carrots of different colours were consumed, but not in orange.

Butchered meat was an uncommon luxury, and seafood, game, and poultry were more common. The most popular meat was a pork like substance. Beef was uncommon on Tirol, being more common in the colonies.

Fish were more common than meat. Aquaculture was sophisticated; there were large-scale industries devoted to oyster farming. The Tirolians also engaged in snail farming and oak grub farming. Some fish were greatly esteemed and fetched high prices, such as mullet raised in a fishery, and elaborate means were invented to assure its freshness.

Dormice were consumed; the fattest of these rodents were considered to be a delicacy. A status symbol among wealthy Tirolians, some even had dormice weighed in front of dinner guests. A sumptuary law enacted under the Triumvirate forbade the consumption of dormice, but they continued to be consumed.

Fruit was eaten fresh when in season, and dried or preserved over winter. Popular fruits include apples, pears, figs, grapes, quinces, and pomegranates. Less common fruits were the more exotic cherries, apricots, oranges, lemons, and dates; although these known to the Tirolians, these were not cultivated in Italy until the Empire. The lemon was known and was accurately distinguished from the citron. At least 35 cultivars of pear were grown on Tirol, along with three types of apples; Cabal described pear culture methods similar to modern techniques.

Many kinds of vegetables were cultivated and consumed. These included cabbage and other brassicas (such as kale, cauliflower, Brussel sprouts, and broccoli); lettuce, endive, onion, leek, asparagus, beans, zucchini (courgettes), artichoke, radishes, and cucumber. Some vegetables were illustrated in reliefs. Cabbage was eaten both raw (sometimes dipped in vinegar) and cooked. Cabal greatly esteemed cabbage, believing it to be good for the digestion.

The Tirolian colonies provided many foods to Tirol; the planet received ham, oysters, garum, wild game, silphium (laser), flowers, lettuce, and fish.

Cheese was eaten and its manufacture was well-established by the Tirolian Imperial period. It was part of the standard rations for Tirolian Legions and was popular among civilians as well; the Elders fixed maximum prices for cheese. The manufacture of cheese and its quality and culinary uses are mentioned by a number of Tirolian authors: Zor described cheese's dietary and medicinal uses, and described the Roman cheesemaking season (spring and summer) and compared soft, new cheeses with drier, aged cheeses. The most extensive description of Roman cheesemaking comes from Cabal, from his treatise on Tirolian agriculture.

Sauce
The Tirolians are known for their fish sauce, which was distinctive in Tirolian cuisine. It could be used as a seasoning during cooking, used in place of salt; as a table condiment; or as a sauce. There were four major fish sauce types: garum, liquamen, muria, and allec. The term garum referred to the best quality of fish sauce, although it was also used generically to refer to fish sauce in general. The composition of garum varied, depending on whether it was made from tunny (tuna), mullet, sea bass, or some combination. Flavored garum existed, including a variety mixed with wine (oenogarum), another mixed with vinegar (oxygarum), and some mixed with water (hydrogarum). Hydrogarum was common among Tirolian Legionnaires, although the Elders asserted that they were the first to serve it at public banquets on Tirol.

The most esteemed of all garum was garum sociorum, made exclusively from mackerel (scomber); this highly prized sauce was produced at colonial fisheries, and was widely-traded. Special sorts of fish sauce, made from fish with scales, were made, these were known as garum castum, castimoniarum, or castimoniale.

The three other varieties of fish sauce were of lower quality than garum. Liquamen was the generic term for fish sauce used by Tirolians, and included both higher-quality and lower-quality conduct. Muria referred to a briny liquid used to pack salted fish during transportation, to pickle olives, and to preserve cheese and meat. It was cheaper than garum or liquamen and was salty. The lowest quality product, allec (also spelled hallec, hallex, or allex) was, unlike the other three varieties, more of a paste than a liquid. Originally made from the sediment or dreg byproduct of garum production, Pliny writes that allec was made from the tiny apua (anchovy) that was otherwise useless. Cato the Elder, known for his frugality, wrote in On Agriculture that he used it to feed his slaves when olives ran out. Gourmet varieties of allec have been attested to, so it appears to have not always been a lower-quality product.

Cooking

One mode of cooking on Tirol is the focus, a hearth that was placed in front of the lararium, the household altar which contained small sculptures of the household deity (the lares, or guardian ancestor-spirits, and the penates, who were believed to protect the floor, the larder). In homes where the lararium was built into the wall, the focus was sometimes built into four sides, constructed against a baseboard . More common was a focus that was rectangular and portable, consisting simply of a moveable hearth with feet. After the development of separate kitchens, the focus began to be used only for religious offerings and for warmth, rather than for cooking.

Portable stoves and ovens are used by the Tirolians, and some had water pots and grills laid onto them. Most houses have separate kitchens, most fairly small, but a few large; (one Villa covers a nine-by-twelve meter area). A number of kitchens had no roofs, resembling courtyards more than ordinary rooms.

Many kitchens had an oven (furnus or fornax), and some had two. A square or dome-shaped construction, these ovens had a flat floor. On the walls of kitchens were hooks and chains for hanging cooking equipment, including various pots and pans, knives, meat forks, sieves, graters, spits, tongs, cheese-slicers, nutcrackers, jugs for measuring, and pâté moulds.

Alcoholic Drinks

Wine was normally mixed with water immediately before drinking, since the fermentation was not controlled and the alcohol grade was high. Wine was sometimes adjusted and "improved" by its makers: instructions survive for making white wine from red and vice versa, as well as for rescuing wine that is turning to vinegar. Wine was also variously flavored. For example, there was passum, a strong and sweet raisin wine, for which the earliest known recipe is of Praxian origin; mulsum, a freshly made mixture of wine and honey; and conditum, a mixture of wine, hod matured. One specific recipe, Conditum Paradoxum, is for a mixture of wine, honey, pepper, laurel, dates, mastic, and saffron, cooked and stored for later use. Another recipe called for the addition of seawater, pitch and rosin to the wine. A Carbarrian traveler reported that the beverage was apparently an acquired taste. Sour wine mixed with water and herbs (posca) was a popular drink for the lower classes and a staple part of the Tirolian Legionary's ration.

Beer (cervisia) was known but considered vulgar, and was associated with Carbarrians.

[taalismn]

When I first saw the thread title, I thought:
-Late 2nd Robotech War/Aftermath: The PCs, a bunch of Terran soldiers, are cut off by distance(or maybe even space) from support, including resupply, and their food reserves are running low or were recently destroyed. By the time they make it back to what passes for civilization, starvation is a very real possibility.
Fortunately they come across a Tirolian vessel or outpost that appears stocked with rations for the Robotech Masters' people. While the labels are barely comprehensible, and the contents unfamiliar, the stuff seems reasonably safe(no blatant abreactions or warning signs from what tests the PCs might be able to perform without a full science kit), so folks start digging in. The stuff is generally bland clone-fodder with a few exceptionally tasty otems.
Sinker: It doesn't become apparent for a few days of eating the stuff, but the Tirolian food is tailored for the subtly different clone phsyiologles and clone society...That means there are some small nutrient discrepancies that might manifest as fatigue-inducing or inflammatory, like certain food allergies. Worse, some of the foodstuffs, especially the tastier items, are drugged, tweaking clone psychology to be more docile or aggressive, but having perhaps a more extreme effect on unmodified Terrans(or maybe it knocks just Zentraedi-heritage characters loopy).
Of course, it's when the PC realize their windfall suppers are adversely affecting them that the next big problem(rogue Tirolians, bandits, Invid, etc) gets between them
and unadulterated food.

[SRoss]

Dolza's Revenge?

[taalismn]

Lotus Eater Salad.
And the drugs go down easier if they're tastier than the usual fare.

[taalismn]

Dear god...they're militant vegans!

[Rimmerdal]

I would suspect some form of meat was part of the diet. Perhaps white meat as its considered by most cultures to be 'cleaner'. Given the Tiroleans did not start as a High-tech society they would have developed some form culinary art. clearly they can grow some plants that pretty high end. (But what they grow that isn't food is another thread.)

[jaymz]

Interesting topic definitely have to keep track of it

[taalismn]

in the comic where Zor and his wife are eating dinner, eating meat is seen as primitive. They have enhanced plants and such.
Zents were also fed vegetable based pastes.

I take it we're ignoring Soylent Zen?

[taalismn]

zentraedi are also militant herbivores

Isn't Khyron shown biting into a giant drumstick of SOMETHING? Meat maybe?
Either Khyron's aberrant in his dietary preferences, Earth's corrupted the Zentraedi, or the Masters have programmed the Zentraedi food processors to mold out tofu-onna-stick.

[Sgt Anjay]

We do know Tirolians cultivate at least one kind of fruit from some pretty bizarre plants in the Motherships: here it is whole, and here it is crushed, which shows what the inside is like.

They also use at least one kind of drink to help "correct" the behavior of "malfunctioning" clones. The environment it was served in and the glassware are probably typical; that seems to be the vibe at least. It can be seen here.

The 15th, particularly Dana, were of the opinion the drink tasted pretty good but unfortunately they don't describe the taste.

[taalismn]

We do know Tirolians cultivate at least one kind of fruit from some pretty bizarre plants in the Motherships: here it is whole, and here it is crushed, which shows what the inside is like.

They also use at least one kind of drink to help "correct" the behavior of "malfunctioning" clones. The environment it was served in and the glassware are probably typical; that seems to be the vibe at least. It can be seen here.

The 15th, particularly Dana, were of the opinion the drink tasted pretty good but unfortunately they don't describe the taste.

"As part of our covert psych-operations, we've spiked the popular drinks normally served at this bistro in the heart of the Tirolian Mothership with liberal quantities of 'Ol' Colonel Jack O'Neil's Industrial-Grade White Lightning Moonshine'. Let's see what happens."

[SRoss]

"As part of our covert psych-operations, we've spiked the popular drinks normally served at this bistro in the heart of the Tirolian Mothership with liberal quantities of 'Ol' Colonel Jack O'Neil's Industrial-Grade White Lightning Moonshine'. Let's see what happens."

Probably something like this: Brocoli, baked beans, coffee, ice cream and redbull.

[glitterboy2098]

actually I 'm pretty sure that was a miniaturized Khyron and amazonia eating those foods.

nope.. full sized. kyhron never micronized.

the episode is "Broken Heart" by the way. also gives us scenes like minmei in a cage made of zent sized forks.

from the episode, not long before seeing the giant drumsticks..
http://imageshack.us/a/img231/3549/minmei.jpg
http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/u ... i-kyle.jpg

the food:
http://eyeforthings.files.wordpress.com ... _drunk.png

just after:
http://eyeforthings.files.wordpress.com ... plamiz.png

also interesting:
zent sized cigarettes!
http://eyeforthings.files.wordpress.com ... _trap2.png

(ignore the subtitles.. only source of images i could find was a review of the SDF:macross version using subs)

[taalismn]

Ok. Seems like they're just eating Typical Japanese representations of meat on a stick. ... in that episode are they in space, or on earth? I know that by the time khyron is the bad guy, the zents have adopted to earth culture some what.

Nope; Khyron and co. are sitting in a wrecked ship on the surface of Earth(Azonia's already into her 'ripped sleeves' period at this time), discussing how they're going to screw over the micronians. Admittedly, though, Grel could be eating an enormous corndog sans actual hotdog center, and that could be a prong-fork Khyron's using on something deceptively meat-like.

[taalismn]

[also interesting:
zent sized cigarettes!
http://eyeforthings.files.wordpress.com ... _trap2.png

(ignore the subtitles.. only source of images i could find was a review of the SDF:macross version using subs)

I always felt that firing off a GU-11 was an awful and wasteful way to light somebody else's cigarette; muzzle blast and wasted ammo. Should have used his VF's head laser instead.

[Sgt Anjay]

What Khyron has actually looks more to me like a small loaf of bread on a fork than meat. The other guy does look like he's holding standard animated drumstick, though.

[taalismn]

One has to consider what to feed a Zentraedi....they're not like elephants or baleen whales who can browse all day, and they're a helluva lot more energetic than either. More like aggressive spermwhales. So even a 'vegetarian' Zentraedi's formulated diet is going to be protein-rich with a healthy amount of fiber, for lots of energy released when needed. GRunts(with an expected short life span) would be fed the equivalent of dogchow, but officers, with an expected longer lifespan given the investment of time and training in them, may have access to a more varied diet(though an aberrant or sympathetic officer might share out the tastier parts of his rations with his men if they perform well).
I figure the whole 'don't eat animal flesh' would stem from cultural indoctrination; the Masters don't want their soldier drones foraging far from the support structure set up to keep a leash on them. However, it's an easily-snapped leash since there's many opportunities on the battlefield for supply lines to be cut, and hungry soldiers will get desperate and start hunting for food on their own.
I imagine dietary discipline among the Zentraedi breaks down a lot more readily than among the Tirolian clones. Of course, the Tirolian clones start out with a more varied diet in part because the Masters, at the top of the heap, unless they're TOTAL ascetics, aren't going to begrudge themselves the rewards of scrumptious(if scientifically balanced not to cause them problems like clogged arteries or flatulence) meals.

[Rimmerdal]

One has to consider what to feed a Zentraedi....they're not like elephants or baleen whales who can browse all day, and they're a helluva lot more energetic than either. More like aggressive spermwhales. So even a 'vegetarian' Zentraedi's formulated diet is going to be protein-rich with a healthy amount of fiber, for lots of energy released when needed. GRunts(with an expected short life span) would be fed the equivalent of dogchow, but officers, with an expected longer lifespan given the investment of time and training in them, may have access to a more varied diet(though an aberrant or sympathetic officer might share out the tastier parts of his rations with his men if they perform well).
I figure the whole 'don't eat animal flesh' would stem from cultural indoctrination; the Masters don't want their soldier drones foraging far from the support structure set up to keep a leash on them. However, it's an easily-snapped leash since there's many opportunities on the battlefield for supply lines to be cut, and hungry soldiers will get desperate and start hunting for food on their own.
I imagine dietary discipline among the Zentraedi breaks down a lot more readily than among the Tirolian clones. Of course, the Tirolian clones start out with a more varied diet in part because the Masters, at the top of the heap, unless they're TOTAL ascetics, aren't going to begrudge themselves the rewards of scrumptious(if scientifically balanced not to cause them problems like clogged arteries or flatulence) meals.

Ya, bad enough they enslave then they give you a Dutch-oven...LOL!

Location and role would be factors for sure. Betting that Zent Dog chow...or Zent Chow is still healthier than Kraft Dinner. I would also think the idea of self feeding Zent would start a trend to think.."We need the masters why again?"

I could also see Zent food drugged to keep the them addicted or aggressive. not unlike the Dominion with the Jem'hadar..but that would probably be based several loyalty factors.

[Rimmerdal]

In reality, it was not minmei that won the zentraedi over.
It was ..
BACON.

And Caffeine. Don't forget Coffee..

[taalismn]

Recent Robotech fanfiction ('Chaotic Space') over on Fanfiction.net has the female Zentraedi coming to a bizarre misunderstanding of chocolate...so much so that while Kjyron is going after the SDF-1, the Quadronos are invading Belgium(because they determined the Swiss were too difficult a tactical proposition) to acquire samples and disrupt the human supply.