Wampyr Psi-Illusionist possibility

[Razorwing]

To be honest, I don't think this is a good idea... the powers of the Psi-illusionist are very different from those of the Wampyr... and combining the two would make for a very powerful character... more so than a player playing either of the classes seperately.

Additionally, I do believe the transformation into a Wampyr tends to overwrite the abilities one had previously in favor of the Wampyr's natural abilities. Thus while a Wampyr will still have psychic abilities, they will be those common to wampyrs. In time, the character may be able to regain some of the powers he once had, but will never be like he was.

If I remember correctly, only Occupational Character Classes are able to be combined as a multi-class character... at a very steep cost (if you use the skills/abilities of your old class, you forfit any experience gained from doing so towards your current class... iirc). Racial Character Classes, like Psi-Illusionist and Wampyrs can't becombined... one will overwrite the other's abilities (in this case the wampyr RCC will be domanant).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I agree that the PCC's, like the Psi-Illusionist, would not survive the person's transformation to a Wampyr as a Player Char.

As a NPC it would be an interesting combination. If the Wampyr was really old then it might transcend the normal Player Char Wampyr RCC, and develop it's psi abilities into realms not normally available to player chars.

[eliakon]

I would say the first thing to do is to decide if what want is really best served by a Wampyr/Psi-Illusionist? If not look at what your trying to do, and see if a less outré character will do, if it is best served though, then by all means go ahead. You might want to look at either 'dual classing' the character (ie they stopped advancing as an illusionist and now advance as a Wampyr) or increasing the XP per level, or just reducing the powers they keep (sort of like when a psi is turned into a vampire). What ever works best for your game, just remember if you make it, your players will (understandably) wonder if they can make something like that too....so think carefully before you open this (or any other) Can-of-Worms (the GM basic equipment list gives you the can opener...but you have to decide if you want to use it or not. )

[Razorwing]

One of your players actually made a guardian/demon hybrid? He may know the books better than you, but one thing Palladium doesn't do is hybrids. The closest are ogres which are believed to be an off-shoot of humanity.

If he really does know the books, have him show you where in the books his combination of Guardian/demon is mentioned... I'm betting that he is counting on your inexperience to let him play a character that should not exist. The mere fact that Guardians and demons are anethema to each other should raise many red flags that this is merely an atempt at power-gaming.

He may have GM'd before, but that doesn't give him any rights to dictate what sort of character he plays in your game. You are the GM here... if his character seems strange, that is probably because it is.

[Tor]

IPCC's, like the Psi-Illusionist, would not survive the person's transformation to a Wampyr as a Player Char.

Why on earth not? Psionics survive for normal Secondaries/Masters and Wampyrs are notably even more psionically powerful than either of them. Their ability to select Healing psionics basically makes them self-sustaining.

ogres which are believed to be an off-shoot of humanity.

Always a bit unclear in that regard. Sometimes I think they were like Neanderthals and some kind of cousin or predecessor. Transdimensional TMNT says to consider Neanderthals humans though, so possibly a bit more different.

[drewkitty ~..~]

IPCC's, like the Psi-Illusionist, would not survive the person's transformation to a Wampyr as a Player Char.

Why on earth not? Psionics survive for normal Secondaries/Masters and Wampyrs are notably even more psionically powerful than either of them. Their ability to select Healing psionics basically makes them self-sustaining.

The question is "w.t.f. would they survive?" You answer that in a way other then 'cause I say so', before you go ask'n 'why not?' question with negative implications attached to it in it's format.

It is not like the char is changing from one job to another. The char DIED and became an undead. That right there is traumatic enough to change anyone.

[Tor]

Yes, but unless there's any indication that they would lose their abilities, I don't see why we would be stripping them. If it were a psionic-less class like an Abandoned Vampire (I think that Rifter stuff didn't make it into Arzno along with the Blood Priest, sadly) that'd be good argument, but this is the most-psionically-versatile vampire in Nightbane here. Super-Hypnosis aside, they are the only guys who can learn additional powers.

The Wampyre description of Magic Powers explicitly says that they are unable to work magic, and that they lose their previous magic powers. It does not do this for psionics. That's because it is a contrast to vampires, who can (except Wild, too dumb) retain their magical knowledge.

Wampyres 'start with all the vampire psionic powers' (except super hypnotic suggestion) and while skills like magic can be forgotten for lesser vampires, there is no indication of psionic loss.

If we look at Esteban Morricco (pg 140 in my original Vampire Kingdoms, not sure if he's still around in the revised version) who runs the Night Arcade & Freak Show, he was previously a 4th level mystic and and has more than the standard psionics that vampires get by default. It explicitly says "as well as psi-powers from life as a mystic".

[Razorwing]

Personally, I am reluctant to power-stack racial abilites simply because of "Well, the rules don't say it doesn't work that way!"

Simply put, the Wampyr RCC says what psionics the wampyr gets. It doesn't say they retain any psionics they may have had previously. Does this mean they retain any psionics they may have had? Possibly... if you want to deal with the fact that doing so can make for a very powerful character... one with all the powers of 2 RCCs. One could also interpret this thusly... "Since it isn't mentioned specificly that they retain any psionic powers they had before, they don't." It is just as valid an interpretation without an official ruling.

As for your example from vampire Kingdoms, I would not presume to use a single example of a unique character to justify a rule for all. If you can find other examples of vampires that retained previously known psionic powers in official rules (Rifter doesn't count unless the article is given official sanction), then maybe I will conceede the point... but until then, a lack of a rule in one direction doesn't mean that one should rule in the other.

[Tor]

It's not a matter of the rules not saying it doesn't work that way. Rather, Palladium rules allow for multi-classing. PCCs are a form of OCC as clarified on multiple occasions, therefore a Wampyre could switch from their RCC to being one. This would mean that their natural racial abilities would stop advancing as they trained in illusionism, though.

We have examples in other media (Nightbane explicitly says its vampire rules are adapted from Rifts) that vampires DO retain psionics (and magic) from their previous life.

I see no reason to assume this to be a 'unique character'. He isn't listed as being special, he's an example of how to apply the rules. We've a shortage of fully fleshed out vampire NPCs and not many of them have a past life or its skills explained. The most we could take from this, since the NPC is a Master Vampire, is that only master vampires retain their full psionic abilities, much as they retain their full magic abilities.

A reasonable way to do things, is since secondary vampires only retain half the magic from their previous life, that they only retain half the psionics, IF you are dedicated towards stripping them of power.

Considering that Wampyres are the most psionically versatile, and retain no magic whatsoever, I think it only fair not to penalize them psionically.

[Razorwing]

The problem isn't that he isn't playing a Psi-Illusionist who eventually becomes a Wampyr... the problem is that he is playing a Wampyr that has Psi-Illusionist powers in addition to his own. This isn't really about multi-classing but combining two RCCs into one and gaining the power of both as time goes on.

What I mean is this. If a player came to me saying he wants to be a Wampyr, I would be fine with it, but he also wants to have started as a more experienced Psi-Illusionist first, with a fair bit of that PCC's powers before his transformation. In otherwords, yes he is a 1st level Wampyr as they start playing, but was maybe upwards of a 5th to 10th level Psi-Illusionist. Giving a first level character that much power is where I am reluctant to go.

If he wants to do this, the player should play a Psi-Illusionist character to start with and then, over the course of the game be turned into a Wampyr... he doesn't start as a Wampyr with the powers of an experienced Psi-Illusionist. Additionally, only the powers he gains as a Wampyr would ever increase. Even if he reaches a higher level as a Wampyr, the powers unique to the Psi-Illusionist will be frozen at the level he was at the transformation and will never increase again. Only the standard psycic powers would become unlocked from their frozen state once he gained more experience as a Wampyr.

I would also have serious reservation about allowing that half-Guardian/half-Demon character he mentioned one player has.

[Tor]

I agree with opposing the merging of the RCC and the PCC, certainly shouldn't advance concurrently. To advance in any other class, the Wampyre would have to halt the progression of their RCC abilities.

Much like if a Dragon wants to become a Shifter, they have to stop advancing their dragon hand to hand and psionics and stuff.

Confused at how you make a 1/2 guardian 1/2 demon. Is this like a Reformed Demon who becomes human and gets Guardianified? Wouldn't be the end of the world. Guardian with a couple bonuses.

[Razorwing]

If a demon is reformed and becomes human... then there is no demon powers in the character anymore. Besides, this sort of a character is something that would need to be dealt with in-game development... not as back story for a new character.

It's like saying that your 1st level Cosmo-Knight was a 15th level Cyber-Knight before he was chosen by the Cosmic Forge... so much potential character development wasted as backstory rather than actually developed for the character.

Multi-classed characters need to be developed in-game... not before the game even starts. You start as one thing and then develope into the other. You start as a Psi-Illusionist and then become a Wampyr. You start as a demon and become human, then Guardian (though I still believe the process of becoming human destroys your demonic powers... you wouldn't be human with them).

[Tor]

Query: does roleplaying the cyberknight before going cosmo, or the demon before becoming human, actually aid in roleplaying them after their transformation that wipes out who they are?