Pay Checks

[BlueLion]

Depends on the type of game.

Merc games typically have a drawn salary with possible bonus. They may or may not be allowed to upgrade with found gear deepening on the nature of the merc company and amount they group.

Most adventure groups there may be a loot split but I have also seen fist come fist served. A smart groups do set up slush funds for certain things, but wasteful use may prevent tapping it.

[Giant2005]

Usually when I play, one or two characters that are more motivated by money tend to end up with virtually everything.

[kaid]

Traditionally most of my groups from D&D and beyond have all been pretty reasonable loot wise. Cash gets split evenly and items are first choice to those who can use them. If something we get is an upgrade for a player we let them have it.

If an item is an upgrade for two players then its rock paper lizard scissors lizard spock time. The winner gets a note so we know if the situation comes up again the loser of that gets the next item.

In merc company type games everybody gets their usual paycheck and any booty/loot is split evenly. If there are special items that benefit one player than they get the upgrade mercs may be mercenary but in the long run the better geared the team is the more phat loots and less death will come to the team in the long run.

[Razzinold]

My experiences have been the same as everyone else.

When I GM I quote their merc group a price for the job, I take in account the number of players and I figure they will split it all equally so I make sure that each person ends up with a decent amount of money. So you need to plan accordingly, $500,000 for a two man job might be good (for a small job) but my last group had like 6 players, there is no way they'd be happy splitting $500,000 6 ways.
I would think that most players split the pay for jobs evenly.

Once on the road though it's up to them. I have seen 1 or 2 players hoard everything but I've also played with groups that shared.

Back when I was a player we did the same thing. If I killed a guy then I looted him. I kept his gun/ammo (if I needed it) and his credstik if he had one. I wasn't greedy though I did share but I wasn't forced to do so, it was understood by all that you 'keep what you kill" so to speak. However we were realistic about it as well. I took a rifle off a dead guard and gave it to another member of the group instead of keeping it because they only pistols so I made more sense for us to be better armed then those we were fighting.

Another time I robbed a weapon cache of guns and ammo and sold it all to cover the cost of vehicle repairs since we already all had good equipment.

Even my old GM would base the price on our mission based on the number of people figuring we'd split it evenly.

[Dog_O_War]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

[Razzinold]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

Did you do this as a fellow player or as the GM ?

I can see how that would work in some scenarios (not having to pay for gear and ammo is pretty sweet) but it wouldn't work in all scenarios. People do like to feel more in control of their lives (IMO).
I had one game that played out like that but that is because it took place on a pirate ship. The captain got the biggest cut because he got his cut and the ships cut. Then the first mate had the next largest share, then the pcs got their cut.

However I also provided a place for them to sleep (on the ship) they learned skills for free (piloting the ship, cooking, using the weapons) and provide extra gear (specialized weapons, disguises, land vehicles, ammo, etc.). This game was based in the HU setting and was a lot of fun, wish it was still going on.

[Dog_O_War]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

Did you do this as a fellow player or as the GM ?

As a player. The game had(s) a... let's say, "unique" life-cycle.

I can see how that would work in some scenarios (not having to pay for gear and ammo is pretty sweet) but it wouldn't work in all scenarios. People do like to feel more in control of their lives (IMO).
I had one game that played out like that but that is because it took place on a pirate ship. The captain got the biggest cut because he got his cut and the ships cut. Then the first mate had the next largest share, then the pcs got their cut.

Sometimes, that's just how things turn out.

However I also provided a place for them to sleep (on the ship) they learned skills for free (piloting the ship, cooking, using the weapons) and provide extra gear (specialized weapons, disguises, land vehicles, ammo, etc.). This game was based in the HU setting and was a lot of fun, wish it was still going on.

Originally I had a PC partner, who would have been entitled to at least half of the money we stole, but he died. I played solo (re: me and the GM) for a couple of sessions, and then I had a PC or two come into the game. Sometimes they'd have "demands"; I had a billion creds and enough missiles to put the last 100 years worth of 4th of July Celebrations across the United States to shame. So when someone got greedy or attempted intimidation, they'd just get offed.

I also lived a dangerous life, so often they'd die before a month was even up. Or they'd get captured or something. I suppose my character's life for a good portion of his career could be described as a rich petty crook. I mean, I was supplying the funds and the gear for jobs, but often I was the only one with enough brains to make it out alive.

I mean, I never seen so many people unwilling to retreat in all my life.

[Alrik Vas]

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

FACT

As a player. The game had(s) a... let's say, "unique" life-cycle.

been there...man, so many times.

Originally I had a PC partner, who would have been entitled to at least half of the money we stole, but he died. I played solo (re: me and the GM) for a couple of sessions, and then I had a PC or two come into the game. Sometimes they'd have "demands"; I had a billion creds and enough missiles to put the last 100 years worth of 4th of July Celebrations across the United States to shame. So when someone got greedy or attempted intimidation, they'd just get offed.

I also lived a dangerous life, so often they'd die before a month was even up. Or they'd get captured or something. I suppose my character's life for a good portion of his career could be described as a rich petty crook. I mean, I was supplying the funds and the gear for jobs, but often I was the only one with enough brains to make it out alive.

It's like I'm hearing myself talk about my experiences in Rifts.

I mean, I never seen so many people unwilling to retreat in all my life.

Yep.

[kaid]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

I am sorta curious what was the other players motivation to take part in that. If you are buying them gear and weapons I am shocked if most of them would not just waltz off and go off on their own direction as there does not seem to be much reason for them to stick around. As for having tons of missiles that is all fine and dandy but you also have to have launchers for them and to have a target to shoot at. Seems like the most likely outcome of this kind of thing would be waking up one morning and finding everybody gone.

Edit also for those missiles you need people there to pull the trigger. If you have people getting room and board and a small allowance manning multi million dollar missile heavy mechs I would be kinda shocked if those don't just go walk about any time you are not looking.

[BlueLion]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

I am sorta curious what was the other players motivation to take part in that. If you are buying them gear and weapons I am shocked if most of them would not just waltz off and go off on their own direction as there does not seem to be much reason for them to stick around. As for having tons of missiles that is all fine and dandy but you also have to have launchers for them and to have a target to shoot at. Seems like the most likely outcome of this kind of thing would be waking up one morning and finding everybody gone.

Edit also for those missiles you need people there to pull the trigger. If you have people getting room and board and a small allowance manning multi million dollar missile heavy mechs I would be kinda shocked if those don't just go walk about any time you are not looking.

Yea, I would like to know if it is they pc die or you have trouble keeping players.

It amost sounds like most players might not like to stick around.

[Nightmask]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

I am sorta curious what was the other players motivation to take part in that. If you are buying them gear and weapons I am shocked if most of them would not just waltz off and go off on their own direction as there does not seem to be much reason for them to stick around. As for having tons of missiles that is all fine and dandy but you also have to have launchers for them and to have a target to shoot at. Seems like the most likely outcome of this kind of thing would be waking up one morning and finding everybody gone.

Edit also for those missiles you need people there to pull the trigger. If you have people getting room and board and a small allowance manning multi million dollar missile heavy mechs I would be kinda shocked if those don't just go walk about any time you are not looking.

I'm not seeing much motivation for another player to stick with this kind of game either. They suffer equal or greater risk for their PC but can't expect equal reward but instead end up fragged by the one PC if they express such desires (provided they even survive that long as it seems like 'friendly fire' might also be a problem).

[Razzinold]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

Did you do this as a fellow player or as the GM ?

As a player. The game had(s) a... let's say, "unique" life-cycle.

I can see how that would work in some scenarios (not having to pay for gear and ammo is pretty sweet) but it wouldn't work in all scenarios. People do like to feel more in control of their lives (IMO).
I had one game that played out like that but that is because it took place on a pirate ship. The captain got the biggest cut because he got his cut and the ships cut. Then the first mate had the next largest share, then the pcs got their cut.

Sometimes, that's just how things turn out.

However I also provided a place for them to sleep (on the ship) they learned skills for free (piloting the ship, cooking, using the weapons) and provide extra gear (specialized weapons, disguises, land vehicles, ammo, etc.). This game was based in the HU setting and was a lot of fun, wish it was still going on.

Originally I had a PC partner, who would have been entitled to at least half of the money we stole, but he died. I played solo (re: me and the GM) for a couple of sessions, and then I had a PC or two come into the game. Sometimes they'd have "demands"; I had a billion creds and enough missiles to put the last 100 years worth of 4th of July Celebrations across the United States to shame. So when someone got greedy or attempted intimidation, they'd just get offed.

I also lived a dangerous life, so often they'd die before a month was even up. Or they'd get captured or something. I suppose my character's life for a good portion of his career could be described as a rich petty crook. I mean, I was supplying the funds and the gear for jobs, but often I was the only one with enough brains to make it out alive.

I mean, I never seen so many people unwilling to retreat in all my life.

Cool, thanks for clarifying the situation.

I'm surprised the GM allowed you to be in charge of the other pcs like that, and I'm equally surprised that the other players allowed/tolerated it as well.

Almost every game I've played in had all the players on equal footing as far as "rank" was concerned. Having to answer to a NPC kept the egos in check (well most of the time anyway ).
My only exceptions I can think of is when our GM ran a Chaos Earth game. Our rank in NEMA was determined by the rank provided in the OCC. So it just happen to work out that I was the highest ranking player. I was the military specialist (the one that could get partial bionics if they wanted too), one guy was the demon hunter one (so was technically not a member of NEMA and is more a professional consultant/volunteer) and the two new players (as in new to Rifts) were a juicer and a crazy (GM's idea). Since they were considered experimental they were lowly privates.
With all that said I still had to answer to a higher ranking NPC and had to follow orders as well.

Same with the game we were in an elite Glitter Boy squad (made up of all the new variants). He made his brother the leader to try and encourage him to be more vocal with his ideas and not just follow along with what everyone else wanted to do.

Like I said some scenarios it works (if everyone agrees to a military style game) but even then I find egos can get in the way/feelings can be hurt/toes stomped on etc.

[BlueLion]

I remember one Western game where my character was a renegade U.S. Marshall. The first game the GM gave me the hook about some bandits and I went to round up the other PCs. They all demanded pay. The pay they demanded ended up being a few hundred dollars and the take for what the bandits had ended up being closer to a thousand. I pocketed the bulk of that.

Another question: what about life insurance? What happens to your cut of the current job if your character dies? I've seen so many games where the dead are just cut out and few where their gear is even split up amongst the living. Do any of your characters or teams have any kind of will or insurance policy in place for their death?

Really depends on the group or people. Some groups when you die loot your stuff, some might fallow a will or take care of loved one left behind. (The worse I saw was a necro PC that had fun with dead PCs)

[BlueLion]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

Did you do this as a fellow player or as the GM ?

As a player. The game had(s) a... let's say, "unique" life-cycle.

I can see how that would work in some scenarios (not having to pay for gear and ammo is pretty sweet) but it wouldn't work in all scenarios. People do like to feel more in control of their lives (IMO).
I had one game that played out like that but that is because it took place on a pirate ship. The captain got the biggest cut because he got his cut and the ships cut. Then the first mate had the next largest share, then the pcs got their cut.

Sometimes, that's just how things turn out.

However I also provided a place for them to sleep (on the ship) they learned skills for free (piloting the ship, cooking, using the weapons) and provide extra gear (specialized weapons, disguises, land vehicles, ammo, etc.). This game was based in the HU setting and was a lot of fun, wish it was still going on.

Originally I had a PC partner, who would have been entitled to at least half of the money we stole, but he died. I played solo (re: me and the GM) for a couple of sessions, and then I had a PC or two come into the game. Sometimes they'd have "demands"; I had a billion creds and enough missiles to put the last 100 years worth of 4th of July Celebrations across the United States to shame. So when someone got greedy or attempted intimidation, they'd just get offed.

I also lived a dangerous life, so often they'd die before a month was even up. Or they'd get captured or something. I suppose my character's life for a good portion of his career could be described as a rich petty crook. I mean, I was supplying the funds and the gear for jobs, but often I was the only one with enough brains to make it out alive.

I mean, I never seen so many people unwilling to retreat in all my life.

Cool, thanks for clarifying the situation.

I'm surprised the GM allowed you to be in charge of the other pcs like that, and I'm equally surprised that the other players allowed/tolerated it as well.

Almost every game I've played in had all the players on equal footing as far as "rank" was concerned. Having to answer to a NPC kept the egos in check (well most of the time anyway ).
My only exceptions I can think of is when our GM ran a Chaos Earth game. Our rank in NEMA was determined by the rank provided in the OCC. So it just happen to work out that I was the highest ranking player. I was the military specialist (the one that could get partial bionics if they wanted too), one guy was the demon hunter one (so was technically not a member of NEMA and is more a professional consultant/volunteer) and the two new players (as in new to Rifts) were a juicer and a crazy (GM's idea). Since they were considered experimental they were lowly privates.
With all that said I still had to answer to a higher ranking NPC and had to follow orders as well.

Same with the game we were in an elite Glitter Boy squad (made up of all the new variants). He made his brother the leader to try and encourage him to be more vocal with his ideas and not just follow along with what everyone else wanted to do.

Like I said some scenarios it works (if everyone agrees to a military style game) but even then I find egos can get in the way/feelings can be hurt/toes stomped on etc.

UM expermentals would not be privates. Usually special trained officers get access to experimental stuff or a person underdoing the process gets treated as a officer for undergoing the risk. But hey was not my game.

[Razzinold]

I remember one Western game where my character was a renegade U.S. Marshall. The first game the GM gave me the hook about some bandits and I went to round up the other PCs. They all demanded pay. The pay they demanded ended up being a few hundred dollars and the take for what the bandits had ended up being closer to a thousand. I pocketed the bulk of that.

Another question: what about life insurance? What happens to your cut of the current job if your character dies? I've seen so many games where the dead are just cut out and few where their gear is even split up amongst the living. Do any of your characters or teams have any kind of will or insurance policy in place for their death?

When we ran merc games it went a couple different ways (depended on your back story really)
If you died while on the current job your cut was divided equally among the survivors. If you had a family your cut went to them (honouring a fallen comrade sort of thing) and your gear went back to your family as well to be passed on (gear is expensive). We had one character write up a will saying his cut (and bank account) was donated to the merc company provided he was stuffed and put in his favourite chair in the merc company's bar (doubled as their headquarters) so people could still sit with him and have a beer.

He was to be dressed in his armour (minus the helmet) and his weapons were to be permanently deactivated and strapped to him in the same manner if he was alive.

Funny enough this guy did die and we honoured his wishes. One time a guy tried to rob us by sneaking in an eclip (no weapons allowed inside the bar) figuring he could slip it into one of the guns on our 'mascot'. Well he tried and the bartender who was a full conversion borg (red one from Triax) laughed so hard that he didn't even bother to kill him, just toss him out.
However the bouncers, twin juicers, didn't like looking like fools for allowing him in with it, proceeded to literally tear him apart with their bare hands. Funny enough nobody ever tried it again.

[Razzinold]

I would hire on the other PCs, and if they survived long enough to receive a paycheque, didn't attempt to betray me, etc., or make some quip about requiring an "equal portion", well... it never came to that. I don't think I had anyone besides NPCs last more than a month, and they were content with room & board and a small allowance. I mean, I put all the gear in their hands, but still.

PCs are greedy and don't know the cost of running an outfit, so they tend to see a high rate of turnover.

Did you do this as a fellow player or as the GM ?

As a player. The game had(s) a... let's say, "unique" life-cycle.

I can see how that would work in some scenarios (not having to pay for gear and ammo is pretty sweet) but it wouldn't work in all scenarios. People do like to feel more in control of their lives (IMO).
I had one game that played out like that but that is because it took place on a pirate ship. The captain got the biggest cut because he got his cut and the ships cut. Then the first mate had the next largest share, then the pcs got their cut.

Sometimes, that's just how things turn out.

However I also provided a place for them to sleep (on the ship) they learned skills for free (piloting the ship, cooking, using the weapons) and provide extra gear (specialized weapons, disguises, land vehicles, ammo, etc.). This game was based in the HU setting and was a lot of fun, wish it was still going on.

Originally I had a PC partner, who would have been entitled to at least half of the money we stole, but he died. I played solo (re: me and the GM) for a couple of sessions, and then I had a PC or two come into the game. Sometimes they'd have "demands"; I had a billion creds and enough missiles to put the last 100 years worth of 4th of July Celebrations across the United States to shame. So when someone got greedy or attempted intimidation, they'd just get offed.

I also lived a dangerous life, so often they'd die before a month was even up. Or they'd get captured or something. I suppose my character's life for a good portion of his career could be described as a rich petty crook. I mean, I was supplying the funds and the gear for jobs, but often I was the only one with enough brains to make it out alive.

I mean, I never seen so many people unwilling to retreat in all my life.

Cool, thanks for clarifying the situation.

I'm surprised the GM allowed you to be in charge of the other pcs like that, and I'm equally surprised that the other players allowed/tolerated it as well.

Almost every game I've played in had all the players on equal footing as far as "rank" was concerned. Having to answer to a NPC kept the egos in check (well most of the time anyway ).
My only exceptions I can think of is when our GM ran a Chaos Earth game. Our rank in NEMA was determined by the rank provided in the OCC. So it just happen to work out that I was the highest ranking player. I was the military specialist (the one that could get partial bionics if they wanted too), one guy was the demon hunter one (so was technically not a member of NEMA and is more a professional consultant/volunteer) and the two new players (as in new to Rifts) were a juicer and a crazy (GM's idea). Since they were considered experimental they were lowly privates.
With all that said I still had to answer to a higher ranking NPC and had to follow orders as well.

Same with the game we were in an elite Glitter Boy squad (made up of all the new variants). He made his brother the leader to try and encourage him to be more vocal with his ideas and not just follow along with what everyone else wanted to do.

Like I said some scenarios it works (if everyone agrees to a military style game) but even then I find egos can get in the way/feelings can be hurt/toes stomped on etc.

UM expermentals would not be privates. Usually special trained officers get access to experimental stuff or a person underdoing the process gets treated as a officer for undergoing the risk. But hey was not my game.

Wasn't mine either I was playing not GMing. Basically his take was since it was experimental it wasn't safe to have them in charge, since it was untested. They were basically treated more as hardware (by the higher ups) then as actual people anymore. Kind of like Robocop, Universal Soldier, etc. They were no longer people but very expensive pieces of military hardware. We treated them fairly but that was the back story provided to them.

[Dog_O_War]

Whoa, lots of responses.
Okay, I will clarify the whole situation.

First, "missiles" is code for a poop-ton (metric) of heavy ordinance. I didn't invest all my money into actual missiles (though I did invest a lot in actual missiles). Everything from demonic PA to giant robots though. I mean, I once put a hit out on CS Kill Cats, except I wasn't specific. It cost me 500,000cr that I was certainly gonna pay, because it was a veritable army of Juicers I accidentally put on the job.

As for PC turn-over; the other players were all close friends; we still game together to this day. except they had certain expectations of the game because it was Rifts, that the GM wasn't buying into. Like "no GI-Joe rule" for example. More than once my compound was hit by random elements trying to steal back the creds I stole, and sometimes these other PCs were there when it happened.

And sometimes they were over-confident. Or spiteful. I'm not gonna say I was cowardly; I stood toe-to-toe with plenty of abominations and killer robots before they even came along. But it's that experience that taught me when to cut my losses and run. And when to run faster when things are chasing you. I had numerous NPCs on my payroll; I 'bought' a gang of wannabe-juicers after trashing them bare-handed and then killing their leader. I offered them partial conversion and training; a cooler pad than what they had, and thus purchased the loyalty of people looking for a better life.

And I attracted others to my 'cause'. I inadvertently found myself on the hating end of the CS. I used to do jobs for them, but (mentioned briefly above), they got careless with some Kill Cats on my Crazy friend and killed him. So basically I turned my money into the engine of a privately funded war against the CS. I would still do the odd job here and there, but because of my ideals shift, I found myself with allies and loyal NPCs who were fighting for the cause I was paying for.

And then PCs would pop in every once in a while. Because of the dramatic turns the campaign had taken, I inadvertently found myself "in control" of the game. I didn't want it that way. The GM didn't design it that way, but we rolled with it. Now, I understand that PCs always see themselves as equals, and for the most part I tried to treat them that way. But there are limits. I mean, I had to have a grace-period; I would give them better weapons and armour if they needed it, but I wasn't about to take on full partners or ramp the pay up to eleven for a "new guy" right off the bat.

And that's how I had to off PCs. And by "off" I mean abandon completely out in the middle of nowhere in a terrible situation.

[kaid]

If it is missiles or other heavy ordanance without some kind of preatorian guard of super loyal highly paid highly motivated minions watching your back I don't see how running an operation like that would work for more than a week. By the end of the week desertions should be at or near 100% and all your awesome heavy ordanance would be wandering away with them. All I can think of is you had a really generous GM who supported it with NPC's who for some reason did not look at the obvious okay this guy is paying me jack BUT I am inside and driving around a multi million dollar combat robot lets just wander away with this.

And that is if you get lucky and one of the badly treated PC or NPC decide to simply step on you with one of said combat mechs one night when you are sleeping.

[Dog_O_War]

If it is missiles or other heavy ordanance without some kind of preatorian guard of super loyal highly paid highly motivated minions watching your back I don't see how running an operation like that would work for more than a week. By the end of the week desertions should be at or near 100% and all your awesome heavy ordanance would be wandering away with them. All I can think of is you had a really generous GM who supported it with NPC's who for some reason did not look at the obvious okay this guy is paying me jack BUT I am inside and driving around a multi million dollar combat robot lets just wander away with this.

And that is if you get lucky and one of the badly treated PC or NPC decide to simply step on you with one of said combat mechs one night when you are sleeping.

Okay, so I need to elaborate more.

One, not everyone has the skills pilot robots and powered armour, and pilot tanks and APCs. That said, all of that stuff was under lock & key. The "grunts" as they were, were exceptionally loyal; cult-like loyalty. The better mercs I had were bought; one of them even became the character's wife. As for everything else; I had made a pile of money before I stole a pile of money and I did have an unfortunate incident with a theft of sorts. So after that, I wired everything to explode.

Everything. Well, not small arms (which included mini-missiles and missiles in general). But PA, APCs, Robots, etc. were all wired. I also had black-market AIs as home-guard, so you'd also need to be a demolitions expert and a hacker (I was both) in order to peel this onion. It just wasn't worth the effort for many people.

I also learned the hard way not to keep all my toys in a single playbox (that was a ten million dollar mistake).

[Snake Eyes]

How do the characters in your games pay themselves?

In most fantasy games I've played or run there's typically 2 models that people use. The first I've seen is to simply split the funds equally based on the number of people in the party. The second is roughly the same as the first, but includes an additional share for the common use of the party to cover communal expenses like travel or common use provisions.

I'm wondering if anyone does it differently in a game like Rifts. My thought is that the costs to repair and replace power armor and mdc armor and weapons are pretty high. So, I was wondering if anyone does anything like keeping the funds in a common account and then paying the party members a monthly stipend so that the bulk of funds would be available for maintenance or replacement gear? Or is everyone just out on their own?

In Rifts, the characters in my game work for/with the black market, also the funds they get for jobs are split evenly......

[kaid]

If it is missiles or other heavy ordanance without some kind of preatorian guard of super loyal highly paid highly motivated minions watching your back I don't see how running an operation like that would work for more than a week. By the end of the week desertions should be at or near 100% and all your awesome heavy ordanance would be wandering away with them. All I can think of is you had a really generous GM who supported it with NPC's who for some reason did not look at the obvious okay this guy is paying me jack BUT I am inside and driving around a multi million dollar combat robot lets just wander away with this.

And that is if you get lucky and one of the badly treated PC or NPC decide to simply step on you with one of said combat mechs one night when you are sleeping.

Okay, so I need to elaborate more.

One, not everyone has the skills pilot robots and powered armour, and pilot tanks and APCs. That said, all of that stuff was under lock & key. The "grunts" as they were, were exceptionally loyal; cult-like loyalty. The better mercs I had were bought; one of them even became the character's wife. As for everything else; I had made a pile of money before I stole a pile of money and I did have an unfortunate incident with a theft of sorts. So after that, I wired everything to explode.

Everything. Well, not small arms (which included mini-missiles and missiles in general). But PA, APCs, Robots, etc. were all wired. I also had black-market AIs as home-guard, so you'd also need to be a demolitions expert and a hacker (I was both) in order to peel this onion. It just wasn't worth the effort for many people.

I also learned the hard way not to keep all my toys in a single playbox (that was a ten million dollar mistake).

That honestly makes even less sense. If stuff is that locked down than it is not being used and not a threat to anybody. When it is being used it is now in use and no longer locked down and free to be wandered off with and the stuff you could use to stop it is locked down under the control of one guy. If somebody wanders off and then you self destruct it nobody else is going to step foot inside the vehicles again so now you have a lot of expensive hardware nobody would use and with minimal pay/benefits either you get a bunch of guys just loafing around eating the free food and playing cards or mass desertion.

[BlueLion]

If it is missiles or other heavy ordanance without some kind of preatorian guard of super loyal highly paid highly motivated minions watching your back I don't see how running an operation like that would work for more than a week. By the end of the week desertions should be at or near 100% and all your awesome heavy ordanance would be wandering away with them. All I can think of is you had a really generous GM who supported it with NPC's who for some reason did not look at the obvious okay this guy is paying me jack BUT I am inside and driving around a multi million dollar combat robot lets just wander away with this.

And that is if you get lucky and one of the badly treated PC or NPC decide to simply step on you with one of said combat mechs one night when you are sleeping.

Okay, so I need to elaborate more.

One, not everyone has the skills pilot robots and powered armour, and pilot tanks and APCs. That said, all of that stuff was under lock & key. The "grunts" as they were, were exceptionally loyal; cult-like loyalty. The better mercs I had were bought; one of them even became the character's wife. As for everything else; I had made a pile of money before I stole a pile of money and I did have an unfortunate incident with a theft of sorts. So after that, I wired everything to explode.

Everything. Well, not small arms (which included mini-missiles and missiles in general). But PA, APCs, Robots, etc. were all wired. I also had black-market AIs as home-guard, so you'd also need to be a demolitions expert and a hacker (I was both) in order to peel this onion. It just wasn't worth the effort for many people.

I also learned the hard way not to keep all my toys in a single playbox (that was a ten million dollar mistake).

Seams like a situation to good to be true.
Be real easy for your expensive stuff to blow up. No security is fool prof, the set up seams to sweet for you. your earlier post made it sound like there where PC now they just seam minion lackey npcs. I grantee players if they tried could find at least a dozen holes in your security to exploit.

[Dog_O_War]

That honestly makes even less sense. If stuff is that locked down than it is not being used and not a threat to anybody.

Yeah; I said most of these guys were in training, save for the paid mercs (who were doing paid work). The only people I needed to threaten to keep in-line were other PCs.

When it is being used it is now in use and no longer locked down and free to be wandered off with and the stuff you could use to stop it is locked down under the control of one guy.

No. I learned this trick playing Deadlands; you can set explosives to both proximity and recognition. If gear wondered too far (ie: outside of the operational range of either me or the base), then boom. Anyone not keyed to use certain gear; boom. And the booms don't always need to be MD-capable. An SDC explosive inside a suit of PA works just fine on SDC targets.

If somebody wanders off and then you self destruct it nobody else is going to step foot inside the vehicles again so now you have a lot of expensive hardware nobody would use and with minimal pay/benefits either you get a bunch of guys just loafing around eating the free food and playing cards or mass desertion.

You're certainly sure of yourself on this one. I suppose there's no way or rules of any kind for building a Merc Company or anything; certainly not in a book like Rifts Mercenaries

What I'm getting at is the only people I seemed to have trouble with were PCs; I even said this earlier. The NPCs loved the gig; they were getting paid more to do what other mercs got paid to do. Getting people to stay was easy; having people I could trust wasn't a problem either. The only problem I had were other PCs wanting too much of my pie.

Seams like a situation to good to be true.
Be real easy for your expensive stuff to blow up. No security is fool prof, the set up seams to sweet for you.

I could go over the campaign as it was, but the short of it is that I probably lost an entire compound once every three months, and that's only because I would go underground for a while to build a new one. I had to start over from "scratch" probably seven or eight times. As for expensive stuff always blowing up; generally speaking I spearheaded quite a few missions, and my stuff would get blown up anyways. Mostly I would send my inexperienced gang into the 'burbs on recruiting drives. I mean, that's how the books depict people getting the various conversions, except I was offering it to the everyman, the low-life scum who had a bone to pick, who was never gonna get out of the shadow of the CS any other way.

your earlier post made it sound like there where PC now they just seam minion lackey npcs. I grantee players if they tried could find at least a dozen holes in your security to exploit.

I did have a lot of NPCs doing stuff for me; everything from 'burbs infrastructure building (ie: affordable housing) to eliminating other gangs with superior arms and equipment. I had sabotage ops running and intel rings, and I even started work on dee-bee 'liberation'. Basically, there are all sorts of things that a guy can fund to cause chaos and build loyalty.

And then there are missions I would take on with other PCs.
So story time.
The very first one involved a hit in Lonestar, where our escape plan was to flee into vampire territory. Once there, we fled vampire territory, where my new 'partner' decided he should be in-charge. We were ambushed later by an ancient dragon, but only after surviving until daylight and then fighting off a CS patrol. My 'partner' thought he was a tough guy because he was a psy-stalker high on himself for currently being MDC. We were fighting inside of my wrecked APC when the Dragon attacked. I was fleeing via jetpack when my 'partner' shot me down with a plasma cannon. Instead of killing us both, the dragon sought to enthrall us to be his minions; he made us wear bracelets bound to our flesh. This was supposedly going to force us to do his bidding, but the moment I was able to, I cut my own arm off and fled leaving my 'partner' to his new fate. Why? I wasn't adverse to cybernetic enhancement, and because I didn't like being one-upped.

The moral of the story here is that PCs are greedy and not very smart. Not very often anyways. I mean, my GM even thought that I wouldn't just cut off my own arm. I will say this though; after that incident, I was more cautious of who I wanted to join my merc company.

[Alrik Vas]

For all of that, I never really started my own merc company. Nor did I ever let other PC's know what I had. It just causes problems. I bounced from game to game for a while waaaay back when the Chatrooms were jumpin' with games all the time, so i had a lot of various things from all over the world. I only got into it with other players like twice, one time it ended really badly for them, the other time i just ran like bandit.

People are just trouble.

[BlueLion]

That honestly makes even less sense. If stuff is that locked down than it is not being used and not a threat to anybody.

Yeah; I said most of these guys were in training, save for the paid mercs (who were doing paid work). The only people I needed to threaten to keep in-line were other PCs.

When it is being used it is now in use and no longer locked down and free to be wandered off with and the stuff you could use to stop it is locked down under the control of one guy.

No. I learned this trick playing Deadlands; you can set explosives to both proximity and recognition. If gear wondered too far (ie: outside of the operational range of either me or the base), then boom. Anyone not keyed to use certain gear; boom. And the booms don't always need to be MD-capable. An SDC explosive inside a suit of PA works just fine on SDC targets.

If somebody wanders off and then you self destruct it nobody else is going to step foot inside the vehicles again so now you have a lot of expensive hardware nobody would use and with minimal pay/benefits either you get a bunch of guys just loafing around eating the free food and playing cards or mass desertion.

You're certainly sure of yourself on this one. I suppose there's no way or rules of any kind for building a Merc Company or anything; certainly not in a book like Rifts Mercenaries

What I'm getting at is the only people I seemed to have trouble with were PCs; I even said this earlier. The NPCs loved the gig; they were getting paid more to do what other mercs got paid to do. Getting people to stay was easy; having people I could trust wasn't a problem either. The only problem I had were other PCs wanting too much of my pie.

Seams like a situation to good to be true.
Be real easy for your expensive stuff to blow up. No security is fool prof, the set up seams to sweet for you.

I could go over the campaign as it was, but the short of it is that I probably lost an entire compound once every three months, and that's only because I would go underground for a while to build a new one. I had to start over from "scratch" probably seven or eight times. As for expensive stuff always blowing up; generally speaking I spearheaded quite a few missions, and my stuff would get blown up anyways. Mostly I would send my inexperienced gang into the 'burbs on recruiting drives. I mean, that's how the books depict people getting the various conversions, except I was offering it to the everyman, the low-life scum who had a bone to pick, who was never gonna get out of the shadow of the CS any other way.

your earlier post made it sound like there where PC now they just seam minion lackey npcs. I grantee players if they tried could find at least a dozen holes in your security to exploit.

I did have a lot of NPCs doing stuff for me; everything from 'burbs infrastructure building (ie: affordable housing) to eliminating other gangs with superior arms and equipment. I had sabotage ops running and intel rings, and I even started work on dee-bee 'liberation'. Basically, there are all sorts of things that a guy can fund to cause chaos and build loyalty.

And then there are missions I would take on with other PCs.
So story time.
The very first one involved a hit in Lonestar, where our escape plan was to flee into vampire territory. Once there, we fled vampire territory, where my new 'partner' decided he should be in-charge. We were ambushed later by an ancient dragon, but only after surviving until daylight and then fighting off a CS patrol. My 'partner' thought he was a tough guy because he was a psy-stalker high on himself for currently being MDC. We were fighting inside of my wrecked APC when the Dragon attacked. I was fleeing via jetpack when my 'partner' shot me down with a plasma cannon. Instead of killing us both, the dragon sought to enthrall us to be his minions; he made us wear bracelets bound to our flesh. This was supposedly going to force us to do his bidding, but the moment I was able to, I cut my own arm off and fled leaving my 'partner' to his new fate. Why? I wasn't adverse to cybernetic enhancement, and because I didn't like being one-upped.

The moral of the story here is that PCs are greedy and not very smart. Not very often anyways. I mean, my GM even thought that I wouldn't just cut off my own arm. I will say this though; after that incident, I was more cautious of who I wanted to join my merc company.

OK quite simply what you are describing would not fly in any game I have seen. Simply put you would quickly be shut down either by the players or the GM, some one would kill you.

[Nightmask]

That honestly makes even less sense. If stuff is that locked down than it is not being used and not a threat to anybody.

Yeah; I said most of these guys were in training, save for the paid mercs (who were doing paid work). The only people I needed to threaten to keep in-line were other PCs.

When it is being used it is now in use and no longer locked down and free to be wandered off with and the stuff you could use to stop it is locked down under the control of one guy.

No. I learned this trick playing Deadlands; you can set explosives to both proximity and recognition. If gear wondered too far (ie: outside of the operational range of either me or the base), then boom. Anyone not keyed to use certain gear; boom. And the booms don't always need to be MD-capable. An SDC explosive inside a suit of PA works just fine on SDC targets.

If somebody wanders off and then you self destruct it nobody else is going to step foot inside the vehicles again so now you have a lot of expensive hardware nobody would use and with minimal pay/benefits either you get a bunch of guys just loafing around eating the free food and playing cards or mass desertion.

You're certainly sure of yourself on this one. I suppose there's no way or rules of any kind for building a Merc Company or anything; certainly not in a book like Rifts Mercenaries

What I'm getting at is the only people I seemed to have trouble with were PCs; I even said this earlier. The NPCs loved the gig; they were getting paid more to do what other mercs got paid to do. Getting people to stay was easy; having people I could trust wasn't a problem either. The only problem I had were other PCs wanting too much of my pie.

Seams like a situation to good to be true.
Be real easy for your expensive stuff to blow up. No security is fool prof, the set up seams to sweet for you.

I could go over the campaign as it was, but the short of it is that I probably lost an entire compound once every three months, and that's only because I would go underground for a while to build a new one. I had to start over from "scratch" probably seven or eight times. As for expensive stuff always blowing up; generally speaking I spearheaded quite a few missions, and my stuff would get blown up anyways. Mostly I would send my inexperienced gang into the 'burbs on recruiting drives. I mean, that's how the books depict people getting the various conversions, except I was offering it to the everyman, the low-life scum who had a bone to pick, who was never gonna get out of the shadow of the CS any other way.

your earlier post made it sound like there where PC now they just seam minion lackey npcs. I grantee players if they tried could find at least a dozen holes in your security to exploit.

I did have a lot of NPCs doing stuff for me; everything from 'burbs infrastructure building (ie: affordable housing) to eliminating other gangs with superior arms and equipment. I had sabotage ops running and intel rings, and I even started work on dee-bee 'liberation'. Basically, there are all sorts of things that a guy can fund to cause chaos and build loyalty.

And then there are missions I would take on with other PCs.
So story time.
The very first one involved a hit in Lonestar, where our escape plan was to flee into vampire territory. Once there, we fled vampire territory, where my new 'partner' decided he should be in-charge. We were ambushed later by an ancient dragon, but only after surviving until daylight and then fighting off a CS patrol. My 'partner' thought he was a tough guy because he was a psy-stalker high on himself for currently being MDC. We were fighting inside of my wrecked APC when the Dragon attacked. I was fleeing via jetpack when my 'partner' shot me down with a plasma cannon. Instead of killing us both, the dragon sought to enthrall us to be his minions; he made us wear bracelets bound to our flesh. This was supposedly going to force us to do his bidding, but the moment I was able to, I cut my own arm off and fled leaving my 'partner' to his new fate. Why? I wasn't adverse to cybernetic enhancement, and because I didn't like being one-upped.

The moral of the story here is that PCs are greedy and not very smart. Not very often anyways. I mean, my GM even thought that I wouldn't just cut off my own arm. I will say this though; after that incident, I was more cautious of who I wanted to join my merc company.

OK quite simply what you are describing would not fly in any game I have seen. Simply put you would quickly be shut down either by the players or the GM, some one would kill you.

I've heard that some like adversarial games but I can't see why anyone would join this game, at least not if told this is the standard to expect going in. Your gear rigged to explode at a kill signal, certainty to be shot or abandoned or otherwise eliminated from the game for 'one-upping' the player already in the game, and simply zero actual trust involved. I mean that last scenario alone, it's not any surprise why he shot down the teammate abandoning him, he had no reason to believe the PC would make any effort to rescue him.

[Dog_O_War]

OK quite simply what you are describing would not fly in any game I have seen. Simply put you would quickly be shut down either by the players or the GM, some one would kill you.

your experiences are certainly your own.

I didn't elaborate on everything possible (re: tell the whole campaign) because simply put, it is not appropriate for the thread.

I've heard that some like adversarial games but I can't see why anyone would join this game, at least not if told this is the standard to expect going in. Your gear rigged to explode at a kill signal, certainty to be shot or abandoned or otherwise eliminated from the game for 'one-upping' the player already in the game, and simply zero actual trust involved. I mean that last scenario alone, it's not any surprise why he shot down the teammate abandoning him, he had no reason to believe the PC would make any effort to rescue him.

You didn't understand what I wrote then.

He attacked me. Why? I don't know; he thought he could rob me while I was 'weak'(?)
The only thing that disrupted our fight was that we were attacked by an ancient dragon.
And he shot me once I realised that this was a bad situation I was in and tried to flee.

As for gear-rigging; that was more to prevent NPC theft - kinda. I had some of the gangers "borrow" an ATV (the Rolling Thunder) and go out "on the town", only to find them drunk in the garage the next morning and the thing all beat-up. So I told them what I was gonna do with all the mission equipment (at the time it was just a threat, but I spent a couple hours thinking on it and it sounded like a good idea regardless).

I even stated though that small arms (and personal armour) were not rigged. The armoury was under lock and key, but what armoury isn't? They could get in the armoury regardless, it was more of a security measure because more than once I have had to deal with infiltrators in the compound.

A lot of this you guys seem to think is 'zany' or improbable/impossible, but I didn't enact all of this at once; it was all born out of a process and learning curve. When I started, the very first assassins to come after me had me naked in my bunk; I almost died. But I didn't, and I learned.


Either way, at the end of the day, I was the only original character left, and I was creating a merc company; it makes no sense to simply put other PCs who are fresh new-comers to the organization in the top levels of it simply because they are PCs; it breaks the verisimilitude of the game. It also makes for a communist group. Which we weren't.

[BlueLion]

OK quite simply what you are describing would not fly in any game I have seen. Simply put you would quickly be shut down either by the players or the GM, some one would kill you.

your experiences are certainly your own.

I didn't elaborate on everything possible (re: tell the whole campaign) because simply put, it is not appropriate for the thread.

I've heard that some like adversarial games but I can't see why anyone would join this game, at least not if told this is the standard to expect going in. Your gear rigged to explode at a kill signal, certainty to be shot or abandoned or otherwise eliminated from the game for 'one-upping' the player already in the game, and simply zero actual trust involved. I mean that last scenario alone, it's not any surprise why he shot down the teammate abandoning him, he had no reason to believe the PC would make any effort to rescue him.

You didn't understand what I wrote then.

He attacked me. Why? I don't know; he thought he could rob me while I was 'weak'(?)
The only thing that disrupted our fight was that we were attacked by an ancient dragon.
And he shot me once I realised that this was a bad situation I was in and tried to flee.

As for gear-rigging; that was more to prevent NPC theft - kinda. I had some of the gangers "borrow" an ATV (the Rolling Thunder) and go out "on the town", only to find them drunk in the garage the next morning and the thing all beat-up. So I told them what I was gonna do with all the mission equipment (at the time it was just a threat, but I spent a couple hours thinking on it and it sounded like a good idea regardless).

I even stated though that small arms (and personal armour) were not rigged. The armoury was under lock and key, but what armoury isn't? They could get in the armoury regardless, it was more of a security measure because more than once I have had to deal with infiltrators in the compound.

A lot of this you guys seem to think is 'zany' or improbable/impossible, but I didn't enact all of this at once; it was all born out of a process and learning curve. When I started, the very first assassins to come after me had me naked in my bunk; I almost died. But I didn't, and I learned.


Either way, at the end of the day, I was the only original character left, and I was creating a merc company; it makes no sense to simply put other PCs who are fresh new-comers to the organization in the top levels of it simply because they are PCs; it breaks the verisimilitude of the game. It also makes for a communist group. Which we weren't.

Actually you gave a reason in your own story you are just to close to see it.
You did not say you left him because he betrayed you, you left him because you do not like being one upped. It shows no sense of group loyalty from the start. You demonstrated a mind set that it is all about you and the heck with every one else. There was no loyalty in the group one way or another. Your own statements in the thread show that you work to drive away a sense of team work.

"PC are greedy" you are a pc and more greedy than they are because you deprived them of what is normally a fair share of profit for a fair share of work.

You also admit to bulling and threating people and showed in your own story that you enjoy leaving them behind to die.

In the PB alignments system at best you are playing a Anarchist, but it is more likely by your own statements on your actions you are Miscreant.

[Dog_O_War]

Actually you gave a reason in your own story you are just to close to see it.
You did not say you left him because he betrayed you, you left him because you do not like being one upped.

No, that comment was for the dragon's bracelet.

It shows no sense of group loyalty from the start. You demonstrated a mind set that it is all about you and the heck with every one else. There was no loyalty in the group one way or another. Your own statements in the thread show that you work to drive away a sense of team work.

Get your facts straight; I said that the only people I ever really had problems with are PCs, because they're greedy and stupid. Of the PCs that weren't greedy, they would put themselves in a position where they couldn't be saved, and they died. It's how my partner died. As for demonstrating loyalty; said psy-stalker who betrayed me? I hired him; I outfitted him, and I fought beside him.
Until he turned on me. At what point did I decide that I needed to save my own hide there? When he turned on me.

"PC are greedy" you are a pc and more greedy than they are because you deprived them of what is normally a fair share of profit for a fair share of work.

You don't even know what you're talking about.
Every single person that was entitled to an equal portion of the 2 billion credits I stole was dead.
New characters are not entitled to other characters' treasure, period.

You also admit to bulling and threating people and showed in your own story that you enjoy leaving them behind to die.

You didn't read what I wrote then. Or didn't comprehend it; take your pick.

[BlueLion]

Actually you gave a reason in your own story you are just to close to see it.
You did not say you left him because he betrayed you, you left him because you do not like being one upped.

No, that comment was for the dragon's bracelet.

It shows no sense of group loyalty from the start. You demonstrated a mind set that it is all about you and the heck with every one else. There was no loyalty in the group one way or another. Your own statements in the thread show that you work to drive away a sense of team work.

Get your facts straight; I said that the only people I ever really had problems with are PCs, because they're greedy and stupid. Of the PCs that weren't greedy, they would put themselves in a position where they couldn't be saved, and they died. It's how my partner died. As for demonstrating loyalty; said psy-stalker who betrayed me? I hired him; I outfitted him, and I fought beside him.
Until he turned on me. At what point did I decide that I needed to save my own hide there? When he turned on me.

"PC are greedy" you are a pc and more greedy than they are because you deprived them of what is normally a fair share of profit for a fair share of work.

You don't even know what you're talking about.
Every single person that was entitled to an equal portion of the 2 billion credits I stole was dead.
New characters are not entitled to other characters' treasure, period.

You also admit to bulling and threating people and showed in your own story that you enjoy leaving them behind to die.

You didn't read what I wrote then. Or didn't comprehend it; take your pick.

Do I have my facts strait. lets see you said

Pc are greedy and stupid-fact
You are a PC-fact
you are greedy and stupid-well greedy seams a fact by your own statements/stupid is a matter of option.
You bully PC-Fact you said you threaten them to keep them in line that is bulling
You play off betrayal by you as no big deal but when they respond in kind you leave them to die.


By the context of what you post you are in charge go on mission and get them in a bad spot and leave them to die. If you are the leader and most of the people die regular basis as a result of your leadership, the blame is on you for failing as a leader. In other words you are using Cobra Commanders leadership pick a fight and cowardly leave your people to die rather than coming up with a plan to save them.


You described a situation where new PC get no pay-them tiring to get compensated for the work they do is fair.

When you threaten them to keep them in line you bully them.

I read and understood what you wrote but because you are to close you miss the hidden context of your own words.

[Razzinold]

I have a question for you Dog_O_War.

When these players joined your game did you already have the merc company going ? Also could you clarify "joined your game" for me ? You might have already stated it (and I missed it) but were the players completely new to the table and you had your merc group or were they existing players who died and had to roll up new ones?

If they were completely new I find it odd that your GM continued with the same story. Back in the day when we were playing a campaign everyone ended up leaving except me and one other player (plus the GM) so when he put a new group together we started a new campaign instead of adding the new guys to our current story.

At the time we were pissed but years later I changed my tune when a new GM added some new players half way through a campaign and thought we should immediately trust them with our lives and then was surprised when we didn't and it just turned into a bunch of shouting matches before the game disbanded.

[Dog_O_War]

I have a question for you Dog_O_War.

When these players joined your game did you already have the merc company going ?

It was a slow process; the Merc Company was "official", but you know that waiting period where you order something by mail and it takes like 4-6 weeks to arrive? It was like being in that waiting period when the others joined.

Also could you clarify "joined your game" for me ? You might have already stated it (and I missed it) but were the players completely new to the table and you had your merc group or were they existing players who died and had to roll up new ones?

The game started off with me and two other players. One player left early in the game's inception. The other was around when we stole the 2 billion. There was an NPC with us; a Crazy. After we stole the money, we laid low for a couple of months, then moved out into the middle of nowhere, north of Lazlo; it was during this time that the one player's character died (and he quit the game as well as he was moving from the city). So that left me and the NPC Crazy as apart of the "original crew". During the next few sessions I was solo (I had the Crazy, but that's it). I fought gangs, did jobs, and hired on additional help. I hired a Juicer NPC (who would later become my characters' main squeeze) and spent a bit of that cash.

Then the Crazy died. About the next session is when another player joined the game. That character lasted about 3 sessions before betraying me (which is when I abandoned him). Same player brought in a new character later, and another couple of players joined as well. Two of them died within the month due to stupidity.

If they were completely new I find it odd that your GM continued with the same story. Back in the day when we were playing a campaign everyone ended up leaving except me and one other player (plus the GM) so when he put a new group together we started a new campaign instead of adding the new guys to our current story.

They were new to the campaign, but they are long-standing friends and gamers I play with often. We talk about the various campaigns we had been in, and they joined expecting that the game was going to be the one myself and the GM had been talking about.

At the time we were pissed but years later I changed my tune when a new GM added some new players half way through a campaign and thought we should immediately trust them with our lives and then was surprised when we didn't and it just turned into a bunch of shouting matches before the game disbanded.

This is actually a thing that we do; if everyone is new, we establish instant trust. If everyone is good, we establish instant trust.

But if not everyone is good, or only some people are new, we tend to put them through the paces; work an in-game reason for trust. We have found it to lead to a stronger story that when we talk about it, it feels nostalgic. Otherwise, I honestly cannot even tell you about the revolving door of players that have came and gone throughout the years for various games, but you establish an in-game trust with one and it's like establishing an out-of-game trust too. I always remember strong moments and tend to forget/breeze over stuff that breaks verisimilitude.

Do I have my facts strait. lets see you said

Pc are greedy and stupid-fact
You are a PC-fact
you are greedy and stupid-well greedy seams a fact by your own statements/stupid is a matter of option.

This is all true. I said I learned through trials.

You bully PC-Fact you said you threaten them to keep them in line that is bulling

No, I didn't. I said that I couldn't be intimidated.
As for the exploding equipment thing; that was for the NPCs and that was a punishment, not a threat. See, I tended not to make threats; I would just kill the guy and move on.
A threat on the other-hand, requires some measure of posturing; I did what I said I would do. If I said,"stop or I'll shoot" that would be a threat. What I would do is "because you did this, now I have to do that".

You play off betrayal by you as no big deal but when they respond in kind you leave them to die.

I am no longer sure just how many times I have to say "I never betrayed anyone, I was the one who was betrayed" to you, but it is apparently more than twice, this being the third(?) time now.

By the context of what you post you are in charge go on mission and get them in a bad spot and leave them to die. If you are the leader and most of the people die regular basis as a result of your leadership, the blame is on you for failing as a leader.

The only turn-over I had was of the PC variety. The NPCs in my employ seemed to weather everything just fine; I took this skelebot I bought on the Black Market with me everywhere, because I loved its robotic sass (its response to almost everything was "be silent"). That thing lived, and it lived because it listened. To me.

About the only time an NPC died because he was in a bad spot was when my friend the Crazy died, and that's because we were both betrayed by the CS (whom we were working with at the time).

Meanwhile, I take three PCs with me on a job WE ALL took (as well as the Skelebot) and I returned home with one PC and a Skelebot, because the others wanted to "get in there" instead of formulating any kind of plan.

In other words you are using Cobra Commanders leadership pick a fight and cowardly leave your people to die rather than coming up with a plan to save them.

Um no. I guess the answer to my question earlier was that you didn't comprehend what I wrote.

You described a situation where new PC get no pay-them tiring to get compensated for the work they do is fair.

No I didn't. I described a situation where they weren't entitled to any portion the 2 billion in cash I had. I never said I wasn't paying them. I said that they never lived long enough to collect a paycheque.

I read and understood what you wrote but because you are to close you miss the hidden context of your own words.

The "hidden context" of my own words that's a new one.

[BlueLion]

It is hidden from you even thou it is plain by what you say because you are to close to it. You miss what is obvious to many other readers.

You make all the excuses you want but you betrayed him in the end.
The way I understand what happened things went bad you tried to bail. He was upset that you where betraying him by leaving him to die so he tried to stop you. You then abandon him a second time, and say you do not like being one upped.

So as the original person in charge your every man for himself attitude undermines team building. You are failing as a leader, leaders do not shift blame, they do not undermine team work. The attitude displayed in the context of your posts show that you you even threaten new players if you do not like the way the behave. If you work with people that get to engrossed in a fight have a clear exit plan and command that must be fallowed. Do not abandon people that you are suppose to lead to save your own hide. And do not expect players of quality to join if they are suppose to work for free. Being able to keep the GMs charters that are loyal to you alive is no accomplishment, getting other players there and not throwing them to the wolves the way you do is.

[Dog_O_War]

It is hidden from you even thou it is plain by what you say because you are to close to it. You miss what is obvious to many other readers.

You make all the excuses you want but you betrayed him in the end.
The way I understand what happened things went bad you tried to bail. He was upset that you where betraying him by leaving him to die so he tried to stop you. You then abandon him a second time, and say you do not like being one upped.

Okay, for the fourth time now; we were fleeing from Lonestar after a successful mission there; we fled into vampire territory. We were attacked there. We survived until daylight, which, after that vampire fight, he attacked me.
So when did I betray him, hmm?
And do you know what prevented us from killing each other right there? A dragon attacked us. At this point, have I betrayed him?
So the situation is that I am being attacked by my 'new partner' who wants to simply rob me. Then a dragon shows up (I should mention here that it smashes the remainder of the APC we were in).
So as far as I am concerned, I am being attacked on all sides; does it still sound like I betrayed anyone?

No, I tried to flee, leaving the one who betrayed me to his fate (instead of sticking around to kill him myself). But nope, he shoots me, disabling my jetpack; I barely survived the fall. Then we are enslaved. Then I free myself (because nobody gets one up on me), and I well and truly leave my 'new partner' to his fate.

So as the original person in charge your every man for himself attitude undermines team building.

Yes, you keep believing that.

You are failing as a leader, leaders do not shift blame, they do not undermine team work.

Oh? And how exactly should I have helped my partner in this situation? Should I have let him kill or rob me, in order to foster this 'teamwork'?

The attitude displayed in the context of your posts show that you you even threaten new players if you do not like the way the behave.

I have stated in a previous post that I don't make threats, I solve problems.

If you work with people that get to engrossed in a fight have a clear exit plan and command that must be fallowed.

Tell me exactly just how I'm supposed to save people who go from full hit-points to dead in a single round? That's what happens when you rush into things btw (that's what happened to them).

Do not abandon people that you are suppose to lead to save your own hide.

Yeah okay, I'll try to talk reason into them the next time they're stabbing me in the face

And do not expect players of quality to join if they are suppose to work for free.

It's like you didn't read a damn thing I said. All the players in the game were long-time friends and gamers; the one guy whose character betrayed me brought in another different character because he realized he made a poor choice. And at no point did I say they were working for free.

Being able to keep the GMs charters that are loyal to you alive is no accomplishment, getting other players there and not throwing them to the wolves the way you do is.

Okay, forget the part where I said, "it's like you didn't read a damn thing I said", because with this statement, it's clear you didn't read a damn thing I said.
I had PCs die because they didn't want to listen. I equipped them with the best armour and weapons available, but there is only so much I can do before I'm playing their characters for them.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

I remember one Western game where my character was a renegade U.S. Marshall. The first game the GM gave me the hook about some bandits and I went to round up the other PCs. They all demanded pay. The pay they demanded ended up being a few hundred dollars and the take for what the bandits had ended up being closer to a thousand. I pocketed the bulk of that.

Another question: what about life insurance? What happens to your cut of the current job if your character dies? I've seen so many games where the dead are just cut out and few where their gear is even split up amongst the living. Do any of your characters or teams have any kind of will or insurance policy in place for their death?

When we ran merc games it went a couple different ways (depended on your back story really)
If you died while on the current job your cut was divided equally among the survivors. If you had a family your cut went to them (honouring a fallen comrade sort of thing) and your gear went back to your family as well to be passed on (gear is expensive). We had one character write up a will saying his cut (and bank account) was donated to the merc company provided he was stuffed and put in his favourite chair in the merc company's bar (doubled as their headquarters) so people could still sit with him and have a beer.

He was to be dressed in his armour (minus the helmet) and his weapons were to be permanently deactivated and strapped to him in the same manner if he was alive.

Funny enough this guy did die and we honoured his wishes. One time a guy tried to rob us by sneaking in an eclip (no weapons allowed inside the bar) figuring he could slip it into one of the guns on our 'mascot'. Well he tried and the bartender who was a full conversion borg (red one from Triax) laughed so hard that he didn't even bother to kill him, just toss him out.
However the bouncers, twin juicers, didn't like looking like fools for allowing him in with it, proceeded to literally tear him apart with their bare hands. Funny enough nobody ever tried it again.

This sounds completely reasonable to me (the splitting of loot, taking care of loved ones and the gear to be passed on), especially among a group of Brothers-In-Arms (whatever your definition).
Out of curiosity, what town/city did your crew have this bar in? ..............I'd kind of like to have my PC's wander in for a drink in an establishment fine enough to stuff and cure a fallen comrade...........for "atmosphere" if nothing else!!

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, sometimes getting a real paycheck in Rifts is pretty rough. There was a time i was approached by this woman in shabby clothes, begging me to help her. Her family heirloom, a magic sword of some sort, had been stolen by a bandit (i found the term bandit could be pretty loosely used because of this game). I got the feeling she wasn't telling me everything, the whole bit just stank to me, so i told her no. She follows and tried to make it worth my while, but she doesn't have much money. I told her no. So she offered her body for payment, and i told her to go to hell. She finally said that i could have her farming equipment and her house and i was like...really? Eh...*grumble*

I still said no.

A day or two later i was near the south side of the magic zone on my bike and my sixth sense goes wild. I leap up off my bike, barely dodging a laser pulse and tumble through the dirt, scrambling for cover (my poor motorcycle on the other hand didn't fair so well). It seemed I'd just been ambushed by this guy, who after i draw out of his perch, has a magic sword. He's a mega-juicer (you call THAT a bandit!?!?) and he's been overtaken by it's magic powers (it's a fricken soul-drinking rune sword with a curse, of course...) and wants to drink my soul, no negotiating will suffice.

So i have this day-long running fight with this jerk (i wasn't heavily armed at the time, and as fast as my character moved, you can't outrun a +%@*&^ Juicer). I managed to learn he was this lady's nephew (i don't remember their names, i guess she wanted me to get the sword back before something like this happened...oops) and he thought having this runesword would let him conquer the world...some kind of megalomaniac crap like that.

The issue i had was...the guy's already a fricken mega-juicer...does he really need a soul-drinker!?!?!?

Anyway, i finally kill the bastard (a few landslides, well-placed grenades, booby traps and an epic knife fight later). His gear is all broken, armor is trashed, his drug harness is mangled, even his sunglasses were worthless at that point, nothing of use...even his internal organs weren't worth anything since they'd been juiced up so hard. I took the sword and brought it back to the lady (you're damn right i considered keeping it, but honestly i had a minor rune sword already and it gets REALLY jealous...) and told her that the @#&% universe apparently REALLY WANTED ME TO GET IT BACK (bloody GM's). She's surprised to see me, more surprised that i tracked her down, but she takes it back, places it in a new hiding place and then pays me.

Rib-eye steak, green beans, mashed potatoes and a good, dark beer. She gave me a horse to replace my bike...meh.

In the end, it really wasn't all that bad. Though it was the toughest dinner I ever earned.

[Razzinold]

I remember one Western game where my character was a renegade U.S. Marshall. The first game the GM gave me the hook about some bandits and I went to round up the other PCs. They all demanded pay. The pay they demanded ended up being a few hundred dollars and the take for what the bandits had ended up being closer to a thousand. I pocketed the bulk of that.

Another question: what about life insurance? What happens to your cut of the current job if your character dies? I've seen so many games where the dead are just cut out and few where their gear is even split up amongst the living. Do any of your characters or teams have any kind of will or insurance policy in place for their death?

When we ran merc games it went a couple different ways (depended on your back story really)
If you died while on the current job your cut was divided equally among the survivors. If you had a family your cut went to them (honouring a fallen comrade sort of thing) and your gear went back to your family as well to be passed on (gear is expensive). We had one character write up a will saying his cut (and bank account) was donated to the merc company provided he was stuffed and put in his favourite chair in the merc company's bar (doubled as their headquarters) so people could still sit with him and have a beer.

He was to be dressed in his armour (minus the helmet) and his weapons were to be permanently deactivated and strapped to him in the same manner if he was alive.

Funny enough this guy did die and we honoured his wishes. One time a guy tried to rob us by sneaking in an eclip (no weapons allowed inside the bar) figuring he could slip it into one of the guns on our 'mascot'. Well he tried and the bartender who was a full conversion borg (red one from Triax) laughed so hard that he didn't even bother to kill him, just toss him out.
However the bouncers, twin juicers, didn't like looking like fools for allowing him in with it, proceeded to literally tear him apart with their bare hands. Funny enough nobody ever tried it again.

This sounds completely reasonable to me (the splitting of loot, taking care of loved ones and the gear to be passed on), especially among a group of Brothers-In-Arms (whatever your definition).
Out of curiosity, what town/city did your crew have this bar in? ..............I'd kind of like to have my PC's wander in for a drink in an establishment fine enough to stuff and cure a fallen comrade...........for "atmosphere" if nothing else!!

I will check my notes when I get home for more details. I set it up in a town in the New West. The borg ran the bar, the twin juicers ran the door. It had a rotating weapons locker where people had to leave their guns before coming in, like the one in the movie Serenity. The only difference is their weapon locker was inside the bar whereas ours was located outside beside the door.

The man who originally started the bar was named Captain Jack but from the description I gave a couple of the players figured out that it was Roland Deschain from the Dark Tower series. If they would have played longer they would have found out that he was real and their world was a parallel one that actually existed. When he climbed to the top of the Tower he was rifted to Rifts earth. He adopted a new name to avoid pursuit by anyone but still had his pistols (which were now rune weapons).

[Blue_Lion]

It is hidden from you even thou it is plain by what you say because you are to close to it. You miss what is obvious to many other readers.

You make all the excuses you want but you betrayed him in the end.
The way I understand what happened things went bad you tried to bail. He was upset that you where betraying him by leaving him to die so he tried to stop you. You then abandon him a second time, and say you do not like being one upped.

Okay, for the fourth time now; we were fleeing from Lonestar after a successful mission there; we fled into vampire territory. We were attacked there. We survived until daylight, which, after that vampire fight, he attacked me.
So when did I betray him, hmm?
And do you know what prevented us from killing each other right there? A dragon attacked us. At this point, have I betrayed him?
So the situation is that I am being attacked by my 'new partner' who wants to simply rob me. Then a dragon shows up (I should mention here that it smashes the remainder of the APC we were in).
So as far as I am concerned, I am being attacked on all sides; does it still sound like I betrayed anyone?

No, I tried to flee, leaving the one who betrayed me to his fate (instead of sticking around to kill him myself). But nope, he shoots me, disabling my jetpack; I barely survived the fall. Then we are enslaved. Then I free myself (because nobody gets one up on me), and I well and truly leave my 'new partner' to his fate.

So as the original person in charge your every man for himself attitude undermines team building.

Yes, you keep believing that.

You are failing as a leader, leaders do not shift blame, they do not undermine team work.

Oh? And how exactly should I have helped my partner in this situation? Should I have let him kill or rob me, in order to foster this 'teamwork'?

The attitude displayed in the context of your posts show that you you even threaten new players if you do not like the way the behave.

I have stated in a previous post that I don't make threats, I solve problems.

If you work with people that get to engrossed in a fight have a clear exit plan and command that must be fallowed.

Tell me exactly just how I'm supposed to save people who go from full hit-points to dead in a single round? That's what happens when you rush into things btw (that's what happened to them).

Do not abandon people that you are suppose to lead to save your own hide.

Yeah okay, I'll try to talk reason into them the next time they're stabbing me in the face

And do not expect players of quality to join if they are suppose to work for free.

It's like you didn't read a damn thing I said. All the players in the game were long-time friends and gamers; the one guy whose character betrayed me brought in another different character because he realized he made a poor choice. And at no point did I say they were working for free.

Being able to keep the GMs charters that are loyal to you alive is no accomplishment, getting other players there and not throwing them to the wolves the way you do is.

Okay, forget the part where I said, "it's like you didn't read a damn thing I said", because with this statement, it's clear you didn't read a damn thing I said.
I had PCs die because they didn't want to listen. I equipped them with the best armour and weapons available, but there is only so much I can do before I'm playing their characters for them.

Yes I read it but from the tone of what you said and am going of the context of what you said from a third party perspective.

Being able to get people to listing to you IS THE MOST IMPARTENT PART OF LEADERSHIP!!! So you led them they did not listen to you and died you fail as a leader.

Having gear wired to blow when you do not like what some one is doing is a threat. You claim it is a punishment but they know it is there and your finger is on the trigger so it a threat.

Intimidation is form of bulling so you do bully PC. That is failed path to leadership.

Instead of giving them the best gear off the bat and have them waste it. Try a different approach, in trial phase they use their starting gear if they do good at fallowing orders and live X missions they get the good toys. Do not threaten them, because that undermines trust.

The fact that I am not the only one that saw problems in your original post and story shows that is not just me but remember

To me you send allot of time trying to change the context of what you said to sound like the good guy to me, but guess what I am nobody my opinion is just that and no mater what you say, my opinion is just that and does not mater.