Shield vs missiles

[Looonatic]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

[Killer Cyborg]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

Yes.

[The Beast]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

Yes.

IIRC, one of the old Robotech books mentioned one of the veritechs having shields for just such a purpose.

[kaid]

One of the new NG1 bots the blocker has a giant shield and it specifically takes less damage from missiles so I have to assume the arm sacrifice thing can be done with a shield as one would think a shield would be easier to employ in that fashion than arms alone.

[popscythe]

One of the new NG1 bots the blocker has a giant shield and it specifically takes less damage from missiles so I have to assume the arm sacrifice thing can be done with a shield as one would think a shield would be easier to employ in that fashion than arms alone.

You already get your NG1, homie?

[ShadowLogan]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

Yes.

IIRC, one of the old Robotech books mentioned one of the veritechs having shields for just such a purpose.

Several actually (Saber Cyclone, Logan VF, VHT, ASC body armor option, several ASC Battloids, Invid Soldier, Beta VF-IINM) in the old Robotech books.

Could be wrong, but aren't there such shields also in Triax2, and I know some of the Kittani PA also have shields for this purpose (along with using them as a missile rack).

[Glistam]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

No, the rules for shields in this regard are located in the W.P. Shield description on page 327 of RUE. They say that any such attempt is done without any bonuses (a straight die roll), with either a penalty of -8 or -3 to the roll, depending on whether your G.M. considers missiles closer to "bullets or energy blasts" (-8) or "thrown knives, spears, arrows and other weapons" (-3). But the good news is that if the attempt is successful, the shield only takes 10% of the damage which would have been inflicted.

As G.M., you could logically rule differently for any number of potentially reasonable justifications, but such a ruling would be a house rule.

[Whiplash4731]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

No, the rules for shields in this regard are located in the W.P. Shield description on page 327 of RUE. They say that any such attempt is done without any bonuses (a straight die roll), with either a penalty of -8 or -3 to the roll, depending on whether your G.M. considers missiles closer to "bullets or energy blasts" (-8) or "thrown knives, spears, arrows and other weapons" (-3). But the good news is that if the attempt is successful, the shield only takes 10% of the damage which would have been inflicted.

As G.M., you could logically rule differently for any number of potentially reasonable justifications, but such a ruling would be a house rule.

I see what you're saying Glistam, but the way I'm reading the rules you wouldn't have to roll. Earlier on page 364 of RUE it sates that a volley of 4 or more missiles will strike every time provide the attack was successful. What Looonatic was bringing up are the rules of what to do in case of a massive missile volley, which I read as 4 or more. The way I am interpreting the ruling is that, since there is no way to dodge the strike you have enough time to curl up into the fetal position and wait to get blasted, which if you have a shield on that's large enough could cover and protect you with out having to roll. The missiles are striking such a large area that you don't have to move the shield to the incoming missile, there are so many of them that just brining it up will block. For a good visual think of the movie 300 or Lord of the Rings with the clouds of arrows coming in on the heroes, and all they had to do was duck down behind their shields to defend from the arrows. No real action was taken by them, just squatting down.

[Warshield73]

I think both of these rules would apply. If your trying to parry a few random missiles taking only 10% damage and if it is obscene number of missiles that you are willing to sacrifice the shield then you use the sacrifice maneuver, loose the shield and save your bot.

[Glistam]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

No, the rules for shields in this regard are located in the W.P. Shield description on page 327 of RUE. They say that any such attempt is done without any bonuses (a straight die roll), with either a penalty of -8 or -3 to the roll, depending on whether your G.M. considers missiles closer to "bullets or energy blasts" (-8) or "thrown knives, spears, arrows and other weapons" (-3). But the good news is that if the attempt is successful, the shield only takes 10% of the damage which would have been inflicted.

As G.M., you could logically rule differently for any number of potentially reasonable justifications, but such a ruling would be a house rule.

I see what you're saying Glistam, but the way I'm reading the rules you wouldn't have to roll. Earlier on page 364 of RUE it sates that a volley of 4 or more missiles will strike every time provide the attack was successful. What Looonatic was bringing up are the rules of what to do in case of a massive missile volley, which I read as 4 or more. The way I am interpreting the ruling is that, since there is no way to dodge the strike you have enough time to curl up into the fetal position and wait to get blasted, which if you have a shield on that's large enough could cover and protect you with out having to roll. The missiles are striking such a large area that you don't have to move the shield to the incoming missile, there are so many of them that just bringing it up will block. For a good visual think of the movie 300 or Lord of the Rings with the clouds of arrows coming in on the heroes, and all they had to do was duck down behind their shields to defend from the arrows. No real action was taken by them, just squatting down.

What Looonatic was bringing up was whether or not a shield could be used instead of the robot vehicle or cyborg's bionic arms during a "Block Sacrifice" maneuver. The rules are clear: no. Using a shield follows the rules listed within the W.P. Shield description.

What you said sounds like a potentially reasonable justification for a house rule. Very few people like the shield rules but there they are, and they do not allow for automatic blocking. In the movie 300, each of those soldiers would have had to roll a parry with no bonuses, and a -3 to the roll, to successfully parry. You wouldn't be able to apply Palladium rules as written to the events of the movie - otherwise, that opening arrow salvo would have ended the movie then and there.

[Bobboky]

missile attacks get almost no bonuses, so a strait roll, even with a -3 penalty is not as big a deal as you would think. Though, even with a block sacrifice the arms would take full damage and the main body half. with a shield, unless it is huge (like a wall or tower shield) your bot would still take 1/2 damage even with a successful block.

[kaid]

One of the new NG1 bots the blocker has a giant shield and it specifically takes less damage from missiles so I have to assume the arm sacrifice thing can be done with a shield as one would think a shield would be easier to employ in that fashion than arms alone.

You already get your NG1, homie?

I wish no but I do have the prototype which has the first half of the book and about 10 of the bots. The blocker is one of them pretty neat it has a HUGE shield that it looks like it could basically hold right infront of it and shoot its head gun over the top notch in it. The shield also ablative plating so it only takes half damage from explosives which is why I have to assume the sacrifice move works fine with a shield plus as was mentioned a TON of robotech especially southern cross mechs have sheilds or shield like arms for this kind of defensive maneuver.


Edit

Decided to go check the stats of the blockers shield so people who have not see it have a bit better idea about what I am talking about.

The blockers shield has 300 MDC is 24 feet tall and 12 feet wide and takes half damage from explosive attacks.

Even though the rules as written for shields make no indication of being able to use them for cover or do the sacrifice block common sense has to kick in at some point. And as somebody mentioned the main body of the bot still does take half damage from this move due to the blast radius. Basically you try to do the active parry and take the chance you can swat them away or just huddle behind it and mitigate half the damage.

[kaid]

On Page 364 if RUE, a maneuver to be used against impending missile impact called the 'block sacrifice' is mentioned. In it, it says that if the character is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with cybernetic arms that he can cover his main body with his arms so they take the full damage of the missile strike instead of his main body. No mention is made of any combat rolls; no parry, no dodge, no initiative, nothing.

Would it be reasonable to assume that a shield in hand(of reasonable size) could be superimposed over the main body in the same way so as to absorb a missile strike?

No, the rules for shields in this regard are located in the W.P. Shield description on page 327 of RUE. They say that any such attempt is done without any bonuses (a straight die roll), with either a penalty of -8 or -3 to the roll, depending on whether your G.M. considers missiles closer to "bullets or energy blasts" (-8) or "thrown knives, spears, arrows and other weapons" (-3). But the good news is that if the attempt is successful, the shield only takes 10% of the damage which would have been inflicted.

As G.M., you could logically rule differently for any number of potentially reasonable justifications, but such a ruling would be a house rule.

The rules for using shields in the palladium system never made a whole lot of sense. Once you guys see what the blocker picture looks like if a GM did not allow the sacrifice manuver I would simply show them the picture. The shield on that thing pretty much covers the entire body and legs of it with a notch at the top so it can stick its gun turret head over the top. I have seen it argued both ways but with a tower shield like that I have to consider it as full cover for targeting and if one can sacrifice ones arms to block against missiles doing that same action with a shield simply and logically has to be at least as easy to do and probably easier given the larger surface area.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Shield rules on p. 327 are discussing parrying incoming attacks with a shield. That's why it discusses a parry penalty.
The Block Sacrifice rules on p. 364 are not any kind of parry, and are not affected by parry penalties.

Whether or not you have trouble parrying with a shield would not affect whether or not you can perform a Block Sacrifice.

[popscythe]

Spoiler:

I wish no but I do have the prototype which has the first half of the book and about 10 of the bots. The blocker is one of them pretty neat it has a HUGE shield that it looks like it could basically hold right infront of it and shoot its head gun over the top notch in it. The shield also ablative plating so it only takes half damage from explosives which is why I have to assume the sacrifice move works fine with a shield plus as was mentioned a TON of robotech especially southern cross mechs have sheilds or shield like arms for this kind of defensive maneuver.


Edit

Decided to go check the stats of the blockers shield so people who have not see it have a bit better idea about what I am talking about.

The blockers shield has 300 MDC is 24 feet tall and 12 feet wide and takes half damage from explosive attacks.

Even though the rules as written for shields make no indication of being able to use them for cover or do the sacrifice block common sense has to kick in at some point. And as somebody mentioned the main body of the bot still does take half damage from this move due to the blast radius. Basically you try to do the active parry and take the chance you can swat them away or just huddle behind it and mitigate half the damage.

Awesome info. Thanks kaid!

[kaid]

Actually I didn't notice that the blockers shield also negates the blast radius of missiles striking it. So if the blocker huddles behind the shield and just accepts the hit only the shield would take damage from the missile attacks and only takes half damage. I had not read it as carefully the first go through and that makes that mech a really tough bugger durability wise. The shield basically doubles the main body MDC when taking missile fire great for eating big missile swarm alpha strikes.

[Glistam]

That sounds like a really big shield - does the robot actually have the P.S. to be able to use it? Does it interfere with movement or combat actions? I have trouble seeing what's been described so far as a viable design.

[kaid]

It has a robotic strength of 40 I think so it has plenty of strength to wield the shield. The shield looks like a tower shield and it is pretty much designed to hold in front of the bot and fire its head gun over the notch in the top of the shield and fire its primary weapons which are quad ion blasters on the wrists around the side of the shield. The shield is 12 feet wide and the bot is 16 feet wide so it can have the shield up in front of it and still fire its arm weapon around the side pretty easily.

As far as interfering with combat actions it seems pretty well setup for fighting with the shield up in place and in hand to hand it actually has a bunch of power shield moves including a really strong shield rush move that is nearly guaranteed to knock anything the same or smaller in size on its butt.

The blocker is not the speediest bot of all time but it is pretty reasonable speed for its size which is around 31 feet tall I believe. The main weapon it would have to move the shield out of the way to fire are the chest mounted mini missile launchers everything else looks well configured to use with the shield being wielded. The shield can also be stowed on the back of the mech.

[kaid]

Oh forgot that somebody who was at gencon took a picture of the concept art for this mech. Sorry for not remembering the name of the poster to credit the photo for but here is what the blocker looks like.

http://postimg.org/image/ugu66gf6v/

[Tor]

Enough of your robots.

Now that cyber-knights all have Psi-Shields and amazing bonuses vs missiles and other tech...

Let's hypothetically work out how a Cyber-Knight might go about parrying a missile, and how that would work.

Supposing they made their parry role (if that's required, whatever bonuses/penalties apply) would their psi-shield take 100% of the damage, or 10%?

Would half damage by done to a surrounding radius? Would it hit their environmental armor?

If a CK wasn't wearing anything but their cyber-armor, what damage would it take?

How would a missile explosion radius work versus the AR and non-full protection a CK has?

Would all CKs who are SDC by 1-hit killed by any missile regardless of cyber-armor and psi-shield usage?

[kaid]

Enough of your robots.

Now that cyber-knights all have Psi-Shields and amazing bonuses vs missiles and other tech...

Let's hypothetically work out how a Cyber-Knight might go about parrying a missile, and how that would work.

Supposing they made their parry role (if that's required, whatever bonuses/penalties apply) would their psi-shield take 100% of the damage, or 10%?

Would half damage by done to a surrounding radius? Would it hit their environmental armor?

If a CK wasn't wearing anything but their cyber-armor, what damage would it take?

How would a missile explosion radius work versus the AR and non-full protection a CK has?

Would all CKs who are SDC by 1-hit killed by any missile regardless of cyber-armor and psi-shield usage?

Given that the blocker has a specific exemption for blast radius when blocking I would assume the default unless specified in the shield/power would be that the blast radius would take effect on a successful shield block.

So the cyber knight could parry the missiles if he succeeded his roll but he would take half damage from the blast radius.

Blast radius damage always applies to the main body so if he had normal body armor it would be taken off the main body of that.

For cyber armor if he had no normal I believe the original attack roll would be compared to the AR value and if higher the cyber knight would begin pining for the fjords and or having a good squawk. If the original attack roll was less than the AR for the cyber armor than the main body of the cyber armor absorbs the damage.

[Tor]

The idea of applying the strike roll of a missile to an AR seems strange to me though. I mean maybe if it was a direct hit, but if we're talking AoE I'm not sure AR even applies. What do chinks in the armor matter when EVERYTHING gets hit in a blast radius?

I guess the idea is that a block sacrifice shapes the explosion in a way that it directs the blast away enough that it doesn't curve around the shield and hit the robot behind the robot's arms, it would seem like a shield (that's big enough) could do the same thing though.

If ratio of the size of a tower shield compared to its wielder were larger than that of a block-sacrificing robot's arms to its main body then logically the shield should be able to do it too. I guess the question, if we allow such extrapolation, is which robot that can use the technique has the smallest arm:body ratio.

[kaid]

The blast radius rules always were a bit weird. If a mini missile has a 10 foot blast radius then in theory every single part of a robot vehicle or power armor should take damage from that missile strike. But the rules pretty clearly state all the damage only comes off main body. So basically for cyber armor either it automatically just subtracts from the main body cyber armor or the attack roll is compared to the AR.

As per rules honestly it is probably the former although the latter is at least a bit more realistic. Honestly though I always found the cyber armor stuff pretty silly. MDC armor that if you roll high enough can be bypassed for an instant kill just strikes me as something nobody would ever bother with. Either you would stick to normal armors or you would go partial conversion and have consistent protection.

[Looonatic]

The idea of applying the strike roll of a missile to an AR seems strange to me though. I mean maybe if it was a direct hit, but if we're talking AoE I'm not sure AR even applies. What do chinks in the armor matter when EVERYTHING gets hit in a blast radius?

I guess the idea is that a block sacrifice shapes the explosion in a way that it directs the blast away enough that it doesn't curve around the shield and hit the robot behind the robot's arms, it would seem like a shield (that's big enough) could do the same thing though.

If ratio of the size of a tower shield compared to its wielder were larger than that of a block-sacrificing robot's arms to its main body then logically the shield should be able to do it too. I guess the question, if we allow such extrapolation, is which robot that can use the technique has the smallest arm:body ratio.

And can just robots and cyborgs use it? WHat about a cyberknight or mind melter's psi-shield?

I actually brought this up because one of the NPCs I have for a campaign I run is a cosmo-knight whose cosmic weapon is a shield. I've been pondering block-sacrifice rules for missiles as well as cover rules if he should block his main body with it(would it take a called shot to hit an uncovered part of his body?). THese are questions that are more than a little fuzzy in the game rules.

[Blue_Lion]

The idea of applying the strike roll of a missile to an AR seems strange to me though. I mean maybe if it was a direct hit, but if we're talking AoE I'm not sure AR even applies. What do chinks in the armor matter when EVERYTHING gets hit in a blast radius?

I guess the idea is that a block sacrifice shapes the explosion in a way that it directs the blast away enough that it doesn't curve around the shield and hit the robot behind the robot's arms, it would seem like a shield (that's big enough) could do the same thing though.

If ratio of the size of a tower shield compared to its wielder were larger than that of a block-sacrificing robot's arms to its main body then logically the shield should be able to do it too. I guess the question, if we allow such extrapolation, is which robot that can use the technique has the smallest arm:body ratio.

And can just robots and cyborgs use it? WHat about a cyberknight or mind melter's psi-shield?

I actually brought this up because one of the NPCs I have for a campaign I run is a cosmo-knight whose cosmic weapon is a shield. I've been pondering block-sacrifice rules for missiles as well as cover rules if he should block his main body with it(would it take a called shot to hit an uncovered part of his body?). THese are questions that are more than a little fuzzy in the game rules.

Personally I would allow it, but in the end it is up to the GM weather or not it will work.

[kaid]

The idea of applying the strike roll of a missile to an AR seems strange to me though. I mean maybe if it was a direct hit, but if we're talking AoE I'm not sure AR even applies. What do chinks in the armor matter when EVERYTHING gets hit in a blast radius?

I guess the idea is that a block sacrifice shapes the explosion in a way that it directs the blast away enough that it doesn't curve around the shield and hit the robot behind the robot's arms, it would seem like a shield (that's big enough) could do the same thing though.

If ratio of the size of a tower shield compared to its wielder were larger than that of a block-sacrificing robot's arms to its main body then logically the shield should be able to do it too. I guess the question, if we allow such extrapolation, is which robot that can use the technique has the smallest arm:body ratio.

And can just robots and cyborgs use it? WHat about a cyberknight or mind melter's psi-shield?

I actually brought this up because one of the NPCs I have for a campaign I run is a cosmo-knight whose cosmic weapon is a shield. I've been pondering block-sacrifice rules for missiles as well as cover rules if he should block his main body with it(would it take a called shot to hit an uncovered part of his body?). THese are questions that are more than a little fuzzy in the game rules.

There is no reason you could not block with a shield like a psi shield downside is due to blast effect you still would take 50% damage your main body location. The fact that the blocker robot vehicle does not is because their shield specifically mentions that it negates the blast effect and is clearly an exception to the normal rule. Still worth doing as reducing damage by 50% is nothing to sniff at.

[Tor]

I still think to do a block-sacrifice you should have to make a parry roll though. =/ To think that a robot or borg would always get their arms or shield up in place in time is kinda silly.

[Rimmerdal]

I still think to do a block-sacrifice you should have to make a parry roll though. =/ To think that a robot or borg would always get their arms or shield up in place in time is kinda silly.

I would say a roll. but only to determine if its a critical parry or not. and that may have aa double damage taken off as opposed to a normal amout the parry would block. and if you roll a one..well..thats not good..

[kaid]

The funny thing is if they can do it with the arms with no roll one would have to think with common sense that using a shield would be way easier to pull the maneuver off.

It is one of my gripes in the palladium RPG and in rifts shields do not work very well at all. Shields were super common for most of history because they make it really easy to block a good majority of attacks. Really to defeat a shield you either have to aim a blow to hit a weak point like the legs or feet which is not easy, you have to punch straight through it or you have to physically knock it away.

The romans tactic for dealing with shields were pilum basically javalins with a long soft iron head basically designed to foul the shield so the wielder would drop it. Otherwise you wind up pretty much having to hack through their shield or try to apply enough blunt force to break the shield wearers arm to force them to drop the shield.

Look at tower shields when used against archers they are not swinging it around actively parrying missile attacks. They simply crouch behind it and unless an arrow somehow completly penetrates the shield there is no chance of the shield not successfully blocking the attack.

Edit

Forgot to talk about modern times.

Shields fell out of usage in modern times not because bullets were so fast that you could not swing your shield around like captain america to block them. They fell out of usage because the amount of metal needed to successfully block a high caliber bullet was simply to heavy to be effective.

Even today you are starting to see more and more implentation of things like riot shields coming on the upswing because of newer materials/technologies. The shields now are light enough and still effective vs shot guns and light caliber rounds.

Now take rifts you have vehicle grade armor that is clearly pretty light even looking at things like the plastic man. Logic would dictate that in this environment shields would become pretty common place as materials have become strong enough that they can prevent instant blow through by high caliber weapons and energy weapons and light enough not to exhaust the wielder.

[Tor]

It might be neat to have it work where whatever parry roll you make with a shield, that roll is added to the AR of your armor in terms of bypassing it?