Mind Mages and Their Awesomeness... I Seek Wisdom!

[IrncladZmbie113]

So me and a few fellow gamers have an ongoing PFRPG campaign and our GM is a slight ******* in that he likes to kill our characters as frequently as psychologically possible. As a result, we all have numerous back-ups of varying levels and all are prepared for the worst.

As of yet, my 5th level Gnomish Warlock has yet to have died, but I am debating on retiring him soon. He gained a deed to a tavern in the capital of the Timiro Kingdom and is funding the refurbishing and renovation of it in to tavern/inn/strip club (Zing!) through his current adventuring income. I want to retire him because I don't want to give my GM an excuse to have him targeted for assassination. He claims the income gained through the tavern/inn/strip club (Zing!) is enough to make the Gnome a target due to the ability to simply buy magical gear and have the campaign difficulty totally skewed to the PCs' favor.

Now, I managed to persuade my GM to let me play a Mind Mage (he is greatly opposed to them as PC's due to his older brother ruining them in one of his campaigns in the past. Way OP.), the only problem being, I have no freaking idea how to play a psionic character. I mainly play men-at-arms and spellcasters and am very familiar with spells and whatnot, but have no experience playing a totally psionically-dominate character.

The only reason I'm concerned is that when I retire BronzeBeard (the Warlock), and bring the MM into play, we'll be well into 5th and 6th level campaigning and the MM is required to start at level one (due to the GM's pure, unadulterated hatred for them). I don't want to start a whole new character and then be depressed if I play him wrong and he dies. So, any thoughts or advice on how to play a Mind Mage to his full potential? Anything like best psionics to pick or skills? Tanking him out or just going full-on support roll?

Anything is helpful!

[arouetta]

So me and a few fellow gamers have an ongoing PFRPG campaign and our GM is a slight ******* in that he likes to kill our characters as frequently as psychologically possible. As a result, we all have numerous back-ups of varying levels and all are prepared for the worst.

As of yet, my 5th level Gnomish Warlock has yet to have died, but I am debating on retiring him soon. He gained a deed to a tavern in the capital of the Timiro Kingdom and is funding the refurbishing and renovation of it in to tavern/inn/strip club (Zing!) through his current adventuring income. I want to retire him because I don't want to give my GM an excuse to have him targeted for assassination. He claims the income gained through the tavern/inn/strip club (Zing!) is enough to make the Gnome a target due to the ability to simply buy magical gear and have the campaign difficulty totally skewed to the PCs' favor.

Now, I managed to persuade my GM to let me play a Mind Mage (he is greatly opposed to them as PC's due to his older brother ruining them in one of his campaigns in the past. Way OP.), the only problem being, I have no freaking idea how to play a psionic character. I mainly play men-at-arms and spellcasters and am very familiar with spells and whatnot, but have no experience playing a totally psionically-dominate character.

The only reason I'm concerned is that when I retire BronzeBeard (the Warlock), and bring the MM into play, we'll be well into 5th and 6th level campaigning and the MM is required to start at level one (due to the GM's pure, unadulterated hatred for them). I don't want to start a whole new character and then be depressed if I play him wrong and he dies. So, any thoughts or advice on how to play a Mind Mage to his full potential? Anything like best psionics to pick or skills? Tanking him out or just going full-on support roll?

Anything is helpful!

My first advice would be to find a new GM. Barring that, pick Bio-Manipulation and Hypnotic Suggestion and Total Recall. Bio-Manipulation Paralysis is a combat stopper (and there is no way to tell when a psionic character is doing his thing, there's nothing openly done like spells, so the GM can't start targeting your character without using out-of-game knowledge), Hypnotic Suggestion can let you talk your way out of everything, and Total Recall forces the GM to be your memory. And if the saves start coming like crazy, point out that 75% of the world has no psionics (base save of 15) and likely doesn't have an ME above 11 (no bonus).

[J_cobbers]

Mind mages don't play too different from a wizard or warlock but have some advantages like being able to make as many psionic attacks as they have h2h actions. I would recommend picking up boxing as a secondary skill for the extra attack. Also unlike magic users psychics can wear any armor without it interfering with thier powers. Speed reading along with total recall is a powerful tool to for an in game edge in the knowledge department. One disadvantage you will see from spell casters is that you will be less flexible power wise so make sure you pick new abilities wisely as you can't purchas them like a wizard. In that regard your MM will be similar to the Warlock you're retiring.

EDIT: I just reread the MM write up in PFRPG, the get a bunch of new powers every level so that's actually an advantage over the warlock. Instead of only 2 or 3 new spells you'll be rocking 2 new minor and 3 super psionc powers every new level. Also you get more starting ISP on average than a warlock and maybe even a wizard. (3d6 x10 +ME vs 2d4x10+20/2d4+40 +PE for warlocks or 3d4x10+20 +PE for a wizard).

[Eashamahel]

Can you actually take Boxing as a Secondary Skill in Palladium Fantasy? It was one of the disallowed Secondary Skills in the original RIFTS.

Many psionic powers don't have a '/level' difference, except for duration, and psychic's don't get 'spell strength' increases as time goes on. Combined with psychic generally being on the low end of skills and often not being dedicated to HtH either, and they might be the character type that cares about levels the least.

[Tor]

So far as I know only HU and Rifts had limitations on what could be selected as secondary skills. Although secondary skills in PF would have the same restrictions as Other/Related skills, so a Priest couldn't select it as a secondary since he couldn't select it as an other.

[IrncladZmbie113]

Thanks for the advice, guys! I ended up writing up the character and got some STUPID awesome rolls. He's human and I got ridiculous rolls on the important stats like M.E., M.A., P.S. (for combat), P.E., and I.Q. They're all around 20+, everything else is pretty average. I got a couple physical skills just help boost those main physical stats.

As for psionics, I'm gonna try to tank out the character, so the Bio-Manipulation is a must-have. I also picked Terrakinesis from the Psionics Unlimited book for Rifts, but obviously converted it to S.D.C. As for the last Super, I'm stuck between Catatonic Strike and the Hypnotic Suggestion.

I think I'm gonna deck out the character in plate armor and give W.P. Paired and two long swords and have him be some badass combat tank. the only problem is there's no psionic for armor or added protection, like the spell Armor of Ithan. Has anyone found or made up some reasonable-sounding psionic?

[kiralon]

My first advice would be to find a new GM. Barring that, pick Bio-Manipulation and Hypnotic Suggestion and Total Recall. Bio-Manipulation Paralysis is a combat stopper (and there is no way to tell when a psionic character is doing his thing, there's nothing openly done like spells, so the GM can't start targeting your character without using out-of-game knowledge), Hypnotic Suggestion can let you talk your way out of everything, and Total Recall forces the GM to be your memory. And if the saves start coming like crazy, point out that 75% of the world has no psionics (base save of 15) and likely doesn't have an ME above 11 (no bonus).

I do it as the players usually use their character knowledge when you tell them to make a saving throw vs psionics someone will do detect psionics and find who did it.
and don't listen to arouetta about the total recall power, its the player who gets to record everything he see's, not the dm. The player picked the power so he is the one who MUST write down everything he sees and hears without fail.
They only pick the total recall power once

but it does sound like you are likely to get griefed if you play a mind mage like they are standardly played.
Try picking the non-game ending stuff as you will likely get into trouble if you go around mind wiping or doing 15d6 mind blasts at things. MM's can play a decent merc and can you pick powers to support you rather then be you.

Most Troublesome MM's pick a combination or all of the following.
psi sword
psi shield
mind bolt
mind wipe
super telekinesis
evil eye
tk force field
total recall
speed read

and isle at the edge of the world has some cool psionic stuff

[IrncladZmbie113]

Really appreciate the advice, guys, It's helped. We're not gaming for another week or so, and I won't be able to play the Mind Mage for a month or two. Maybe I can start a side campaign with the GM and a buddy or two, just to run through a couple fights to get the hang of psionics.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The biggest thing with mind mages is to watch ISP closely. Unlike Mages, who can in a pinch draw PPE from allies/ley lines/other mages and various mystic sources, Psionics have nothing but their ISP pool and no way to regrow it but to meditate, and considering your GM, all he has to do is keep interupting you with trivialities to say you didn't get the full hours benifit

[kiralon]

The biggest thing with mind mages is to watch ISP closely. Unlike Mages, who can in a pinch draw PPE from allies/ley lines/other mages and various mystic sources, Psionics have nothing but their ISP pool and no way to regrow it but to meditate, and considering your GM, all he has to do is keep interupting you with trivialities to say you didn't get the full hours benifit

A 2nd ed mind mage gets back a minimum of 48 isp per day (2 per hour) and that is without rest. If he rests gets back 12 per hour.

[arouetta]

and don't listen to arouetta about the total recall power, its the player who gets to record everything he see's, not the dm. The player picked the power so he is the one who MUST write down everything he sees and hears without fail.
They only pick the total recall power once

I respectfully disagree. When a character throws a fireball, the GM doesn't expect the player to have that power. Therefore the power total recall should not be nullified by the player's inability to have picture perfect memories that are not colored by perception. The character can pull up any clue, any conversation and relook at it to verify or change an opinion as to what it meant. A player writing down "purplish-blue" when the GM said "blueish-purple" and not getting the benefit of total recall to correct that impression when it counts is actually having their character being denied the power of total recall.

[kiralon]

and don't listen to arouetta about the total recall power, its the player who gets to record everything he see's, not the dm. The player picked the power so he is the one who MUST write down everything he sees and hears without fail.
They only pick the total recall power once

I respectfully disagree. When a character throws a fireball, the GM doesn't expect the player to have that power. Therefore the power total recall should not be nullified by the player's inability to have picture perfect memories that are not colored by perception. The character can pull up any clue, any conversation and relook at it to verify or change an opinion as to what it meant. A player writing down "purplish-blue" when the GM said "blueish-purple" and not getting the benefit of total recall to correct that impression when it counts is actually having their character being denied the power of total recall.

Fireball is just damage dealt, and the player rolls that, not the DM (well in my games anyhow)

Its better to get the player to write it all down because it goes by what the player saw and heard. If he misheard something he will always recall it misheard. Its not a time travel device to go back to the encounter and see what really happened, its the player playing through what he, and only he, heard and saw at the time, and for that to be correct the player would have to write it down because the DM is never sure if the player heard him correctly or incorrectly. So its better to err on the side of caution and let the person who heard and saw it all write it down. Then if he doesn't write something down he wasn't listening at the time so it didn't record, or he wasn't looking in the right direction at the time so he didn't see everything.

But im mostly poking fun at the power as its a stupid, time consuming, argument causing power, so if a player picks it the onus is on him to record everything because its his power, not the dm's. Otherwise i'd be rolling all my players strike rolls and damage rolls and saving throws and the like. Sense danger and the like are different because its information the player doesn't have.
The player gets the information, so if he picks total recall he should be ready for writing down a lot of detail, eventually the player will get sick of having to write everything down and will usually roll up a new character.

Because for the power to work properly someone does have to write down everything said, seen and heard. Just because you don't think is important what the character has had for breakfast 3 weeks ago doesn't mean he doesn't remember it, which means it needs to be written down. And as the player took the disruptive power it should be up to him to feel the pain, not the dm.

[Cinos]

And as the player took the disruptive power it should be up to him to feel the pain, not the dm.

You think Total Recall is disruptive? I'm not even sure how one comes to that conclusion compared to nearly any other psionic power. Even still, this is akin to asking your players with Mechanical Engineering to know engineering out of game, rather than just letting them go "well, my character knows how a nuclear reactor works and and so I give them some techno-babble. As a GM, this would be like stopping them an asking that player how a reactor works or not allowing them to use their skill.

On the same note, do you have an issue without total recall just writing everything down (or the relevant things) and acting like they have the a perfect memory?

As to the OP, Mind Mages are pretty potent as arouetta pointed out.

More importantly, I'd agree with the fact you should be talking to your GM. It feels like there's a difference of opinion on how games should be played between you two.

[kiralon]

And as the player took the disruptive power it should be up to him to feel the pain, not the dm.

You think Total Recall is disruptive?
Yes, but that's because for it to work properly someone needs to record everything that was mentioned or seen by the character with it, because if someone wants to remember a talk with the merchant from 17 games ago unless someone records everything it isn't going to be correct, and arguments start over who remember what correctly. That's what I mean about disruptive. Someone does have to record everything for it to work without argument. i.e remember 16 games back about a conversation with a demon lord. And since its the player doing it he gets the job

I'm not even sure how one comes to that conclusion compared to nearly any other psionic power. Even still, this is akin to asking your players with Mechanical Engineering to know engineering out of game, rather than just letting them go "well, my character knows how a nuclear reactor works and and so I give them some techno-babble. As a GM, this would be like stopping them an asking that player how a reactor works or not allowing them to use their skill.
Not the same for a comparison, because with total recall the player is there for everything and does know it all. All he has to do is write down everything he sees and hears, and when he uses total recall he whips out his notes.


On the same note, do you have an issue without total recall just writing everything down (or the relevant things) and acting like they have the a perfect memory?
Nope, because without the power I wont wait for them to write it down and continue, so they generally only get points rather then the whole thing. With total recall I will take my time so the player gets it right


As to the OP, Mind Mages are pretty potent as arouetta pointed out.
mild understatement, Yes I am biased, but that was from experience with dm'ing the class. I have never had so many tavern keepers, guards and shepherds mind wiped and then had inserted memories

More importantly, I'd agree with the fact you should be talking to your GM. It feels like there's a difference of opinion on how games should be played between you two,
+1
Lots of issues can be worked out without argument if talked through before hand, and In this case if the player created a character with Total Recall, id tell him how much work he is in for, as lots of arguments have been had about whether a character with total recall can go back to a memory of a noisy inn and try and filter out things he heard, or that with total recall someone can try and get right something they misheard. I got sick of it and said, well if you can remember everything you will need to write it down, and any mistakes you had writing it down came from perceptual differences (couldn't quite hear/see properly)

[Nightmask]

And as the player took the disruptive power it should be up to him to feel the pain, not the dm.

You think Total Recall is disruptive?
Yes, but that's because for it to work properly someone needs to record everything that was mentioned or seen by the character with it, because if someone wants to remember a talk with the merchant from 17 games ago unless someone records everything it isn't going to be correct, and arguments start over who remember what correctly. That's what I mean about disruptive. Someone does have to record everything for it to work without argument. i.e remember 16 games back about a conversation with a demon lord. And since its the player doing it he gets the job

I'm not even sure how one comes to that conclusion compared to nearly any other psionic power. Even still, this is akin to asking your players with Mechanical Engineering to know engineering out of game, rather than just letting them go "well, my character knows how a nuclear reactor works and and so I give them some techno-babble. As a GM, this would be like stopping them an asking that player how a reactor works or not allowing them to use their skill.
Not the same for a comparison, because with total recall the player is there for everything and does know it all. All he has to do is write down everything he sees and hears, and when he uses total recall he whips out his notes.


On the same note, do you have an issue without total recall just writing everything down (or the relevant things) and acting like they have the a perfect memory?
Nope, because without the power I wont wait for them to write it down and continue, so they generally only get points rather then the whole thing. With total recall I will take my time so the player gets it right


As to the OP, Mind Mages are pretty potent as arouetta pointed out.
mild understatement, Yes I am biased, but that was from experience with dm'ing the class. I have never had so many tavern keepers, guards and shepherds mind wiped and then had inserted memories

More importantly, I'd agree with the fact you should be talking to your GM. It feels like there's a difference of opinion on how games should be played between you two,
+1
Lots of issues can be worked out without argument if talked through before hand, and In this case if the player created a character with Total Recall, id tell him how much work he is in for, as lots of arguments have been had about whether a character with total recall can go back to a memory of a noisy inn and try and filter out things he heard, or that with total recall someone can try and get right something they misheard. I got sick of it and said, well if you can remember everything you will need to write it down, and any mistakes you had writing it down came from perceptual differences (couldn't quite hear/see properly)

Sounds like you're screwing the player over there a bit, as has been noted you can't reasonably expect the player to actually have the powers of his character and penalize him because he can't do what the character can. Successful use of the power grants perfect recall of a particular event or block of information, not distorted recall or no recall at all because the player couldn't remember everything. It's your job as the GM to keep track of things and be fair, expecting a player to have the powers of his characters isn't even remotely fair.

[Eashamahel]

I can see how Total recall could be difficult, but I've never had a problem GM'ing a game with it. Worst case scenario, everyone just works to together to remember what is being 'recalled', and if no one can, or you can't decide on exactly what it was, approximate.

Relying on players to be able to do what their character do is silly.

[flatline]

Doesn't total recall only apply to things read?

Just let the player keep track of what the character has read and let the GM decide what the contents were whenever total recall is used.

--flatline

[kiralon]

Sounds like you're screwing the player over there a bit, as has been noted you can't reasonably expect the player to actually have the powers of his character and penalize him because he can't do what the character can. Successful use of the power grants perfect recall of a particular event or block of information, not distorted recall or no recall at all because the player couldn't remember everything. It's your job as the GM to keep track of things and be fair, expecting a player to have the powers of his characters isn't even remotely fair.

The only way Total Recall can work easily in the game is if the players accept generalities as an answer, and a lot of players don't. They took it to get the specifics. My players generally wouldn't accept "I can't remember the exact wording but the gist of it was this" if the outcome is bad, they will often say "I wouldn't have said that, or looked at that", even though they did. Which then causes an argument.
I use wishes in my games, but you would be surprised at how many times someone would say something like this in casual conversation "Oh I wish there was an easy way into the castle" and the castle door would open and then they would argue a few hours later when they realised what they had done, that they definitely didn't, or wouldn't say wish, and its the offhand, in casual conversation things that they argue about the most (I didn't say that to the paladin while the bad guy was listening, I would never do that)
The arguments were a bit time consuming when they were dm/player, but the worst ones were the player/player ones where I could barely remember the conversations to figure out who was right or wrong. That's why I say people have to record everything. I can wing it for DM/Player conversations(sometimes they cause arguments) but the player/player ones where no-one is sure whom is correct, they cause bigger arguments that can waste a whole night.

First I give him the option to write everything down, or record it. All the people whom have taken total recall could write so they do have the power.
Secondly, you obviously expect the DM to do it (not many dm's I know have total recall).
So it screws the players if they have to do it
but it doesn't screw the DM when he has to do it.
When a player casts fireball (or total recall)
does the player roll for damage (or in total recalls case record everything) or does the DM roll for damage (or record everything)
both are within most players grasps, to write everything down and to roll for damage

[flatline]

Sounds like you're screwing the player over there a bit, as has been noted you can't reasonably expect the player to actually have the powers of his character and penalize him because he can't do what the character can. Successful use of the power grants perfect recall of a particular event or block of information, not distorted recall or no recall at all because the player couldn't remember everything. It's your job as the GM to keep track of things and be fair, expecting a player to have the powers of his characters isn't even remotely fair.

The only way Total Recall can work easily in the game is if the players accept generalities as an answer, and a lot of players don't. They took it to get the specifics. My players generally wouldn't accept "I can't remember the exact wording but the gist of it was this" if the outcome is bad, they will often say "I wouldn't have said that, or looked at that", even though they did. Which then causes an argument.
I use wishes in my games, but you would be surprised at how many times someone would say something like this in casual conversation "Oh I wish there was an easy way into the castle" and the castle door would open and then they would argue a few hours later when they realised what they had done, that they definitely didn't, or wouldn't say wish, and its the offhand, in casual conversation things that they argue about the most (I didn't say that to the paladin while the bad guy was listening, I would never do that)
The arguments were a bit time consuming when they were dm/player, but the worst ones were the player/player ones where I could barely remember the conversations to figure out who was right or wrong. That's why I say people have to record everything. I can wing it for DM/Player conversations(sometimes they cause arguments) but the player/player ones where no-one is sure whom is correct, they cause bigger arguments that can waste a whole night.

First I give him the option to write everything down, or record it. All the people whom have taken total recall could write so they do have the power.
Secondly, you obviously expect the DM to do it (not many dm's I know have total recall).
So it screws the players if they have to do it
but it doesn't screw the DM when he has to do it.
When a player casts fireball (or total recall)
does the player roll for damage (or in total recalls case record everything) or does the DM roll for damage (or record everything)
both are within most players grasps, to write everything down and to roll for damage

Unless it's different in Fantasy, Total Recall doesn't help with Who says What. It only applies to things that the character has read. Unless a conversation was conducted in game via pieces of paper or text on a computer screen, Total Recall does not apply.

--flatline

[kiralon]

its different in fantasy, the start line is the character remembers every words he reads or hears, or everything he sees

[IrncladZmbie113]

My GM is the type of guy who would make me try to write **** down, so thankfully I already do write a lot of **** down, so it doesn't matter anyway. Regardless of who remembers what when Total Recall is cast, I think it's ultimately up to the GM's discretion.

[Hotrod]

So much depends on your choices, power selection, and how you use the character.

Your mind mage could be a healer (more than the actual psi-healer), a sensitive (nearly as much as the actual psi-sensitive), a psi-warrior, or more of the classic mind-manipulator. Or you can be a combination thereof. If you tend to select and use mind tricks to give you an "I win" button for every situation, that can be pretty tiresome after the first few times you do it.

I'd talk with the GM, find out exactly what kind of bad experiences he's had, and build/play your character appropriately.

[kiralon]

I guess it also matters how you play Total Recall as well.
To me it looks as if its supoposed to say
Whenever you want something permanently recorded to total recall memory.
Pay 2 isp
do your recording for a block of info (whatever the hell that is)
later, pay 3 isp to remember exactly
or if out of isp roll to see if you remember correctly.
but had the argument that since the duration is permanent that you spend you 2 isp and its active from then on, rather then for small recording blocks as i bthink its supposed to be. The write stuff down is fine and playable for small blocks, and not for permanent.

[arouetta]

I guess it also matters how you play Total Recall as well.
To me it looks as if its supoposed to say
Whenever you want something permanently recorded to total recall memory.
Pay 2 isp
do your recording for a block of info (whatever the hell that is)
later, pay 3 isp to remember exactly
or if out of isp roll to see if you remember correctly.
but had the argument that since the duration is permanent that you spend you 2 isp and its active from then on, rather then for small recording blocks as i bthink its supposed to be. The write stuff down is fine and playable for small blocks, and not for permanent.

We had three GMs look over the cost and what we agreed upon is you spend 2 ISP permanently to have the power. You are on permanent "record". To rewind and press the "play" button, you spend 3 ISP.

Sometimes GMs make mistakes. Sometimes they don't describe a clue right, get a description of an NPC wrong, say "x" when they mean to say "y". Total recall can be used to make up for those mistakes. If the player has to bog down the entire game writing, they can write it down perfectly, and it is still technically wrong. It is still technically a character's imperfect memory because the GM screwed up. If the GM is responsible for repeating the clue, then the memory will be corrected with the second description.

[kiralon]

I guess it also matters how you play Total Recall as well.
To me it looks as if its supoposed to say
Whenever you want something permanently recorded to total recall memory.
Pay 2 isp
do your recording for a block of info (whatever the hell that is)
later, pay 3 isp to remember exactly
or if out of isp roll to see if you remember correctly.
but had the argument that since the duration is permanent that you spend you 2 isp and its active from then on, rather then for small recording blocks as i bthink its supposed to be. The write stuff down is fine and playable for small blocks, and not for permanent.

We had three GMs look over the cost and what we agreed upon is you spend 2 ISP permanently to have the power. You are on permanent "record". To rewind and press the "play" button, you spend 3 ISP.

Sometimes GMs make mistakes. Sometimes they don't describe a clue right, get a description of an NPC wrong, say "x" when they mean to say "y". Total recall can be used to make up for those mistakes. If the player has to bog down the entire game writing, they can write it down perfectly, and it is still technically wrong. It is still technically a character's imperfect memory because the GM screwed up. If the GM is responsible for repeating the clue, then the memory will be corrected with the second description.

and if that was the case I would go with it, but the problem is players disagree more often then not, then argue about it.
and that still doesn't cover the player to player aspect either, it was way to much trouble.

If it was activated for 2 isp then recorded for 30 seconds or while the player was concentrating it would have been oh so much easier, and I still think that's the way its supposed to be because any of the skills that used isp permanently mention it, and the duration makes sense for the amount of time you remember it. Its just the blocks that are confusing, and I think a block is for how long the person is concentrating on the power. Otherwise its either a whole lot of work for the DM or the player.
My players usually ask for what it says it does, remembrance word for word, so if they memorised the V for Vendetta speech, they don't want me to say you remember the v for vendetta speech, they want (and the power says they get) it word for word.

But on this most auspicious of nights, permit me then, in lieu of the more commonplace soubriquet, to suggest the character of this dramatis persona. Voila! In view humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the “vox populi” now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin, van guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it’s my very good honour to meet you and you may call me V.

The generalities only work if the players accept it, and a player who takes total recall isn't looking for generalities in my experience.

But this conversation has made me decide to enforce the 2 isp to record way rather then the record at all times way. So much simpler and easier. Cheers

[Cinos]

Your issues with Total Recall sound much more like issues with specific players. As a GM if the players don't accept the generalities, that's not really your problem. So long as the actions they do are not affected by not having the exact verbatim, like, I don't understand why you would play towards what seems to be a childish demand that's insanely superfluous. Though I guess I can't sympathize much, because I've never had a player actually attempt to contest me making a GM ruling about something in that vein in a serious manner, and if I had a player who would refuse to be quiet about something so irrelevant, i.e me just giving the general gist of it, going into specifics only if it was relevant, like, they use Total Recall to recall an overheard passcode, I'd just say "You remember the passcode", unless the code itself was a clue to a motive or some such. If a player actually argued that I absolutely had to give them the full code for whatever it was for no reason but to attempt me to do grunt work, they would no longer be a player and simply ejected from the game and their character would just become an NPC (or simply have a heart attack).

[Nightmask]

But this conversation has made me decide to enforce the 2 isp to record way rather then the record at all times way. So much simpler and easier. Cheers

Even when that's completely contrary to the what the power actually is? It's not 'Total Recording' it's 'Total Recall' after all, it's no longer the power of 'Total Recall' that the player selected if it's a power you turn on to record what you're currently experiencing and has little to no value at that point (which seems to be your intent, render it useless after the player spent the irreplaceable selection slot in acquiring it). While you may think it 'simpler and easier' that's really just screwing over the player by rendering the power useless for its intended purpose, being able to remember with perfect clarity what you've experienced.

Might as well be up front and say 'I've eliminated the Total Recall power and replaced it with a Total Recording power so you can only remember stuff you actively expend ISP to remember' since that's what you're doing. At which point you can enjoy the complication of the player constantly aggravating you turning it on as often as they can and insisting since you completely replaced the actual Total Recall power with your homebrewed power you should be the one keeping track of everything. Which btw you'd have to do anyway since you clearly don't trust your players so would have to keep complete records to compare against what they write down as what happened to be sure what they wrote and tell you is actually what happened rather than them 'tweaking' things. Something you don't have to worry about with the actual Total Recall power since you are telling them exactly what happened so there isn't any 'I don't think what you wrote is actually what happened' arguing, because it's much simpler and easier when you determine things instead of shifting the work off onto the player and then having to decide if you trust what you've been told nor get the conflict of trying to tell the player that after you insisted he record everything that he's wrong and it was remembered differently.

[flatline]

But this conversation has made me decide to enforce the 2 isp to record way rather then the record at all times way. So much simpler and easier. Cheers

That's how we always interpreted it. Never had a problem with it.

--flatline

[zyanitevp]

But this conversation has made me decide to enforce the 2 isp to record way rather then the record at all times way. So much simpler and easier. Cheers

That's how we always interpreted it. Never had a problem with it.

--flatline

This is also how I play it. Works great.

[Hotrod]

I've honestly never had an issue with Total Recall causing arguments. The way I used to interpret the text is that it has two applications:

1. A character with the power can expend 2 ISP to memorize a key block of information (a page, a picture, a map, a written-out spell, a speech, a rosetta stone, whatever). For the rest of that character's life, that block of information is recalled with perfect clarity. No additional ISP need to be expended (since the duration is permanent for the 2 ISP cost). It's like a digital camera, but you have to pay for the memory card with 2 ISP.

2. A character can try to recall something he/she has heard, seen, or read. This costs 3 ISP, and isn't quite so guaranteed, so you have to roll the percentage dice to see if your powers can resolve your fuzzy memories into clarity.

In re-reading it, however, I see that the intent is more in-line with the 2 ISP to load, 3 to recall model. Making the character expend ISP on both ends seems restrictive to me, though there's certainly plenty of precedent for highly-restrictive psionics (Most of the healing powers kind of suck due to meditation times).

I've never seen this power cause an argument. Perhaps it could be instructive if someone provided an example?

[kiralon]

The one I remember had one of the players arguing that an alchemist had told him about the magic protecting the castle when they met a long time ago, I certainly hadn't written it down and neither had he, except that he was %100 sure and that Total Recall would give him the information. I knew the Alchemist character and thought it unlikely that he would have given it away for free, and I didn't have any transactions recorded, but it wasn't impossible he told them at the time because they might have been taking a job for him to smuggle a special Crystal out of the castle. As it was going to make his life easier in getting his stuff back he was very very insistent that he had been told in detail about the secret way in from under the warehouses at the docks that they had just found out about from the thieves guild, and I just flat out couldn't remember, and he didn't have any notes about it so we argued, and argued, and argued. I stopped the argument finally by saying a guilder comes up to the party and sells them a map for half price, but he still feels ripped off even to this day.
Then there were the brothers who shared an item, and one of them wanted to use Total Recall to remember the bargain in detail so he could get the item back because the time was up and his brother kept saying 1 more day. The bargain was each person got it for X time and they had made the bargain with each other. I had no idea how long they had said and that one almost came to blows between them. Sometimes I swear I feel like I'm their parent or babysitter and need to take 'em over my knee and spank em.

[flatline]

The one I remember had one of the players arguing that an alchemist had told him about the magic protecting the castle when they met a long time ago, I certainly hadn't written it down and neither had he, except that he was %100 sure and that Total Recall would give him the information. I knew the Alchemist character and thought it unlikely that he would have given it away for free, and I didn't have any transactions recorded, but it wasn't impossible he told them at the time because they might have been taking a job for him to smuggle a special Crystal out of the castle. As it was going to make his life easier in getting his stuff back he was very very insistent that he had been told in detail about the secret way in from under the warehouses at the docks that they had just found out about from the thieves guild, and I just flat out couldn't remember, and he didn't have any notes about it so we argued, and argued, and argued. I stopped the argument finally by saying a guilder comes up to the party and sells them a map for half price, but he still feels ripped off even to this day.
Then there were the brothers who shared an item, and one of them wanted to use Total Recall to remember the bargain in detail so he could get the item back because the time was up and his brother kept saying 1 more day. The bargain was each person got it for X time and they had made the bargain with each other. I had no idea how long they had said and that one almost came to blows between them. Sometimes I swear I feel like I'm their parent or babysitter and need to take 'em over my knee and spank em.

Wow.

If you don't remember the details and they don't remember the details and nobody wrote anything down, what do they expect you to do?

Somewhere online there's a list of rules for gaming and one of them is "if it wasn't written down, it didn't happen". Perhaps your group would benefit from adopting that rule.

--flatline

[Cinos]

kiralon, my suggestion would be this; rather than altering the power (other than ruling on the less than clear way it's base usage is written), just tell people if they can't be adults, they either cannot have it, or just cannot play in your games. You'll thank yourself when you don't have to mediate people, just a game.

[Nightmask]

The one I remember had one of the players arguing that an alchemist had told him about the magic protecting the castle when they met a long time ago, I certainly hadn't written it down and neither had he, except that he was %100 sure and that Total Recall would give him the information. I knew the Alchemist character and thought it unlikely that he would have given it away for free, and I didn't have any transactions recorded, but it wasn't impossible he told them at the time because they might have been taking a job for him to smuggle a special Crystal out of the castle. As it was going to make his life easier in getting his stuff back he was very very insistent that he had been told in detail about the secret way in from under the warehouses at the docks that they had just found out about from the thieves guild, and I just flat out couldn't remember, and he didn't have any notes about it so we argued, and argued, and argued. I stopped the argument finally by saying a guilder comes up to the party and sells them a map for half price, but he still feels ripped off even to this day.
Then there were the brothers who shared an item, and one of them wanted to use Total Recall to remember the bargain in detail so he could get the item back because the time was up and his brother kept saying 1 more day. The bargain was each person got it for X time and they had made the bargain with each other. I had no idea how long they had said and that one almost came to blows between them. Sometimes I swear I feel like I'm their parent or babysitter and need to take 'em over my knee and spank em.

Wow.

If you don't remember the details and they don't remember the details and nobody wrote anything down, what do they expect you to do?

Somewhere online there's a list of rules for gaming and one of them is "if it wasn't written down, it didn't happen". Perhaps your group would benefit from adopting that rule.

--flatline

Probably not, considering that also includes not writing down bad stuff in hopes it would get forgotten, like 'oh no I still have that rare item, it so totally wasn't lost a while back'. As far as Total Recall goes, it shouldn't be a problem to make it clear from the start that whenever it's used to recall something unless otherwise trivial things like the color of the paper a letter was written on have actual value the GM is just going to give what would be relevant and demanding every little detail of an event no matter how useless it is will just count as disruptive, time-wasting behavior on the part of the player and immediately or after so many strikes against them doing so gain them some negative game events as a result.

[kiralon]

Cinos, that is sage advice and would have saved me many arguments except that all my players have become pretty close friends, and it feels wrong to exclude them on my own say. Everyone who plays in my games gets voted on or off by a majority vote of the group, and they have all something to contribute if you can find a way to balance them, but the really disruptive players mostly left of their own accord.
It would be a great help if palladium did more errata rulings, but that seems to have died for fantasy.

[Cinos]

Cinos, that is sage advice and would have saved me many arguments except that all my players have become pretty close friends, and it feels wrong to exclude them on my own say. Everyone who plays in my games gets voted on or off by a majority vote of the group, and they have all something to contribute if you can find a way to balance them, but the really disruptive players mostly left of their own accord.
It would be a great help if palladium did more errata rulings, but that seems to have died for fantasy.

I supposed I've never seen GMing as a democracy. It's amazing how often "Would you like to GM" is met with resounding silence. But I'd totally agree Fantasy is in desperate need of revisions / erratas, but then again, it's in desperate need of releases in general. It's effectively a dead line.

[arouetta]

i.e me just giving the general gist of it, going into specifics only if it was relevant, like, they use Total Recall to recall an overheard passcode, I'd just say "You remember the passcode", unless the code itself was a clue to a motive or some such.

This is actually a perfect balance for Total Recall. The GM still manages the "memory" (i.e. "you remember the passcode" or "the passcode was 13579") getting as general or specific as the circumstance requires. Three GMs, lots of psychics, and I've never seen a problem with the GM managing the "memory" in such a manner.

[Hotrod]

You could take a page out of Kevin's playbook, roll a 20-sided, and let luck/fate decide such debates.

[kaid]

The biggest thing with mind mages is to watch ISP closely. Unlike Mages, who can in a pinch draw PPE from allies/ley lines/other mages and various mystic sources, Psionics have nothing but their ISP pool and no way to regrow it but to meditate, and considering your GM, all he has to do is keep interupting you with trivialities to say you didn't get the full hours benifit

A 2nd ed mind mage gets back a minimum of 48 isp per day (2 per hour) and that is without rest. If he rests gets back 12 per hour.

Very much this also ISP based powers tend to be much less efficient energy usage wise which really keeps the psionics from going to crazy with their stuff otherwise they wind up being tapped out pretty quickly. It is one reason a lot of psi characters fall back on bio manipulation so much as it is both very potent and very efficient ISP usage wise to effect. Pure attack PSI powers tend to be very costly ISP wise and hard to sustain to long.

[kiralon]

The biggest thing with mind mages is to watch ISP closely. Unlike Mages, who can in a pinch draw PPE from allies/ley lines/other mages and various mystic sources, Psionics have nothing but their ISP pool and no way to regrow it but to meditate, and considering your GM, all he has to do is keep interupting you with trivialities to say you didn't get the full hours benifit

A 2nd ed mind mage gets back a minimum of 48 isp per day (2 per hour) and that is without rest. If he rests gets back 12 per hour.

Very much this also ISP based powers tend to be much less efficient energy usage wise which really keeps the psionics from going to crazy with their stuff otherwise they wind up being tapped out pretty quickly. It is one reason a lot of psi characters fall back on bio manipulation so much as it is both very potent and very efficient ISP usage wise to effect. Pure attack PSI powers tend to be very costly ISP wise and hard to sustain to long.

They are expensive, but the variety and extra damage they do is worth it. pyrokinesis, mind bolt, bio manip, invisibilty that stops see invis, illusions, a shield that lets you parry projectiles and energy bolts at -3 rather then -8.
Lets just say in a lvl1 character showdown id bet on the mind mage.
He sticks his spear in the ground, picks you up telekinetically and drops you on it, multiple times.
Teleports poison (or something else small and nasty) into your mouth (or nostrils) while you are talking.
Levitates you up into the air and shoots you full of arrows while you just hang there.
Paralyses you, Mind wipes you, then inserts the memory that you are his faithful bodyguard.
These aren't the Droids you are looking for.
But im guessing the power level of mind mage has probably be discussed ad infinitum

[arouetta]

When I introduced my daughter to gaming, the first OCC I recommended was the mercenary. When that didn't work out, I suggested the mind mage. While it could be devastating in the hands of an experienced gamer, it's bad enough in the hands of a novice. I have learned to cringe when she says "hypnotic suggestion".

[kiralon]

When I introduced my daughter to gaming, the first OCC I recommended was the mercenary. When that didn't work out, I suggested the mind mage. While it could be devastating in the hands of an experienced gamer, it's bad enough in the hands of a novice. I have learned to cringe when she says "hypnotic suggestion".

Summon Bigger Fish (read Darth's and Droids if this makes no sense)

Its pretty cool that your daughter plays. Bring on the next Generation of PF players

[Hotrod]

One aspect of psionics that is sometimes overlooked (in Palladium Fantasy) seems to be the distastefulness of the mind control powers. Someone who subverts minds on a whim would probably be about one notch below a witch or a summoner in most areas. I would think that screwing with someone's mind for personal convenience or profit would be a pretty serious crime. Such people would likely bring in plenty of business for assassins' guilds.

See Babylon 5's Psi-Corps-related story arcs for some good examples of how people would relate and react to powerful, mind-melting psychics.

[kiralon]

In my world use of psionics without the kings permission is jail and death. and priests call them devil worshipers

[IrncladZmbie113]

Wow I never even thought of the extensive use of hypnotic suggestion, mind wipe, insert memory, etc., etc. That is an extremely powerful PC... The possibilities are almost endless. I imagine some GM's have received a lot of trouble from intuitive and creative PC MM's in the past.

[arouetta]

In a world where literally 1 out of 4 people have psionics, the numbers are too high for there to be widespread discrimination. And while that many people have psionics, not everyone has detect psionics so there would be a lot of use without being caught (if using the more subtle abilities).

Edit: kiralon's post just gave me an idea for one of the areas we do not have a book for. A king tried to enforce such a silly rule and all of the psychics and their loved ones rose up against him. The battle was not pretty, a mind mage took over, and now you have to have psionics to be upwardly mobile in that society.

[IrncladZmbie113]

Edit: kiralon's post just gave me an idea for one of the areas we do not have a book for. A king tried to enforce such a silly rule and all of the psychics and their loved ones rose up against him. The battle was not pretty, a mind mage took over, and now you have to have psionics to be upwardly mobile in that society.

That is an excellent idea for a campaign!

[kaid]

Mind mages and their rift varient the mind melter are very potent OCC but if one is carefully tracking their ISP they have to make judicious use of their powers or they risk running dry on ISP and their recovery rate can take them a day or so to fully refill especially at higher levels.

That limitation is pretty much the main thing keeping them from dominating a game especially one in an SDC world where psychic powers are both much better balanced and much more potent overall.

[kiralon]

Unfortunately the ISP that the MM starts with is just way too high, so the risk of running out of isp is limited, and then there is always the back up stuff that others use like potions and magic items.

"In a world where literally 1 out of 4 people have psionics, the numbers are too high for there to be widespread discrimination. And while that many people have psionics, not everyone has detect psionics so there would be a lot of use without being caught (if using the more subtle abilities) A king tried to enforce such a silly rule and all of the psychics and their loved ones rose up against him. The battle was not pretty, a mind mage took over, and now you have to have psionics to be upwardly mobile in that society.."

It would be silly if it wasn't necessary to stop players characters from insert memory, hypnotic suggesting their way through markets and towns. insert memory, I paid well for that, give me my change or these high quality swords don't cost much surely hypnotic suggestions. Or teleport objects out of jewellers, or mind wiping guards that come to investigate.
The games setting for security is based off the real worlds, normal police, normal walls and mostly normal protections, because how hard would it be to catch a mind mage thief. He didn't touch that ring he telekinetically lifted out of a room, or many other combinations of powers that makes a couple of mind mages impossible to stop, and there is nothing in the game that is designed to stop psionicists going on a crime spree, and if that high a population had psionics something would have been done about the thievery done with magic psionics as magic/psionic crime sprees would have already been an issue, which it hasn't. Most of the PC MM's I have dm'd could strip a town of its best valuables in less than a week and be gone with very little evidence of who did it. Change your appearance with illusions, telepathically probing merchants to find their stash's. Inserting memory into bank tellers that Merchant Tom showed the teller a document allowing these guys to withdraw funds in his name etc. Mind wiping a tavern keeper because he was rude, hypnotic suggesting him to give him an aversion to gold, the trouble they make is almost endless.
and the saving thow vs psionics is just too high for a lot of the population.
The only merchants who have a chance are psionic themselves, and as a generally law abiding citizen wont immediately lash out with a catatonic strike if attacked, which a pc will do if found out. Then a mind wipe and insert memory.

and when you have three mind mages working in tandem . . .

[arouetta]

Unfortunately the ISP that the MM starts with is just way too high, so the risk of running out of isp is limited, and then there is always the back up stuff that others use like potions and magic items.

"In a world where literally 1 out of 4 people have psionics, the numbers are too high for there to be widespread discrimination. And while that many people have psionics, not everyone has detect psionics so there would be a lot of use without being caught (if using the more subtle abilities) A king tried to enforce such a silly rule and all of the psychics and their loved ones rose up against him. The battle was not pretty, a mind mage took over, and now you have to have psionics to be upwardly mobile in that society.."

It would be silly if it wasn't necessary to stop players characters from insert memory, hypnotic suggesting their way through markets and towns. insert memory, I paid well for that, give me my change or these high quality swords don't cost much surely hypnotic suggestions. Or teleport objects out of jewellers, or mind wiping guards that come to investigate.
The games setting for security is based off the real worlds, normal police, normal walls and mostly normal protections, because how hard would it be to catch a mind mage thief. He didn't touch that ring he telekinetically lifted out of a room, or many other combinations of powers that makes a couple of mind mages impossible to stop, and there is nothing in the game that is designed to stop psionicists going on a crime spree, and if that high a population had psionics something would have been done about the thievery done with magic psionics as magic/psionic crime sprees would have already been an issue, which it hasn't. Most of the PC MM's I have dm'd could strip a town of its best valuables in less than a week and be gone with very little evidence of who did it. Change your appearance with illusions, telepathically probing merchants to find their stash's. Inserting memory into bank tellers that Merchant Tom showed the teller a document allowing these guys to withdraw funds in his name etc. Mind wiping a tavern keeper because he was rude, hypnotic suggesting him to give him an aversion to gold, the trouble they make is almost endless.
and the saving thow vs psionics is just too high for a lot of the population.
The only merchants who have a chance are psionic themselves, and as a generally law abiding citizen wont immediately lash out with a catatonic strike if attacked, which a pc will do if found out. Then a mind wipe and insert memory.

and when you have three mind mages working in tandem . . .

Yes, there are always bad guys. But there are always good guys as well. And again, with 1 in 4 people having psionics, that means the saving throw is not as high as you think. A good chunk of the population will need either 10 or 12, which isn't that bad. And there are always witnesses in a town to bring a bad guy to justice, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater and banning all psionics.

Judging from your comments this entire thread, I suspect you have a problem with the entire line of psionics. The powers are just too powerful, etc. If your players ruined psionics for you, then I feel sorry for you. An openly psionic character played appropriately has much to offer to his/her team. If this is just bias because they have the same number of attacks as hand to hand, because some of the abilities are different than a man at arms, because they aren't as low-powered as the optional OCCs, etc, then I feel sorry that your players aren't being given a chance to fully indulge.