Mind Mages and Their Awesomeness... I Seek Wisdom!

[Hotrod]

Towns are too big and have too many relationships and interactions to totally cover one's tracks, and people's lives are too complicated for a few momentary commands or inserted memories to cover up a massive financial loss. Someone will check the inventory against the ledger, or someone else will come on shift and notice that the safe has been cleared out, or someone's wife will ask them about the thing you stole when they get home.

The truth will come out. It's inevitable.This is especially true if you take the "successful resist = your victim is on to you" approach to mind control. Or worse, if you take the "you can't tell that your victim just resisted, but is playing along" approach.

The 99% of non-mind mages out there will not tolerate the <1% of people who can do this. Cue the Psychic Inquisition. A lynch mob might be crude, but a single mind mage won't be able to control 150 people all at once. More sophisticated regions might force Mind Mages to register (a la CS), and might put together special units to hunt down and kill rogue Mind Mages (teams that might include their own mind mage, too).

So if your players start getting greedy and abuse their power, bring on the gestapo, the lynch mob (bonus points if they have pitchforks and torches), special arm bands they have to wear in public, et cetera. Or, if they skip town or flee the territory, send assasins, knights, or vengeful angels/dragons/demigods ("That town is under MY protection, mortal!") after them.

Actually, this whole line of thinking really makes the case for having a psychic guild, to police their own in order to stave off such mass hysteria. This isn't about ALL psychics, after all. Remember, most psychics can't directly control another mind. People won't go after Healers, and Sensitives could actually be useful in tracking down Mind Mages. But many non-psychics will not make such distinctions, so such guilds will take matters into their own hands.

You could always flip things around on them. They come across a town that's been ransacked by mind mages, and people are starting to realize it. The party is either hooked by the call of justice, or the locals mistakenly accuse the party of being the culpritsl

[kiralon]

Lets just say the MM's caused a lot of havoc with creative uses of their abilities.
One of the mind mages would memorise the box on a wagon and park the wagon near a store with a friend driving it. He would browse the store teleporting expensive objects into the box, and by level 5 that's 250 ft the item can go. You don't get them all but well and truly enough to make money and its very effective. You don't have the object on you when you leave the store, and your friend drives the wagon out of town.
The old detect psionics and the hypnotic suggestion that the MM paid for an item already, or paid 500 and wanted change, or you like me so much the price is halved.
Planting stolen stuff on others so they got blamed
Using illusion to look like other people so the crime is blamed on them.
Inserting memories into guardsmen that the captain of the guard told them to leave these guys alone because they are on secret missions, and many variants.
Possess someone and use their body to do crimes <--- This one really used to bug me
After the crime spree (1-5 days depending on the town and the crime and they would usually keep their crimes to less then 5000gp value for any one person so it would cost the person more then what they lost to get revenge) they would then move on and at the next town or two and be helpful, just to confuse anyone who might be chasing them.

They would also use magic and magic items to help as well.

and it wasn't so much greed that they did it (They would often give away ill gotten gains). They did it because they could.
but the crime did always come out, its just that there was so much confusion about who had done what that it was almost impossible to tell who did it.
and mostly it was the thieves guild that would catch on that the players were doing the dodgy and ask for money or tell them to move on

but the problem is the fixes to the issue are much rarer then the occurrences of the issue, or to put it simpler, the things that stop this sort of thing from happening look very contrived when happening more then once.

But yes I am biased because there isn't much to stop a smart mind mage.
as he turns invisible, levitates or floats, then grabs his shield and telekinetically makes it fly off, his friends float or levitate and grab him and go with him.

[Nightmask]

Towns are too big and have too many relationships and interactions to totally cover one's tracks, and people's lives are too complicated for a few momentary commands or inserted memories to cover up a massive financial loss. Someone will check the inventory against the ledger, or someone else will come on shift and notice that the safe has been cleared out, or someone's wife will ask them about the thing you stole when they get home.

The truth will come out. It's inevitable.This is especially true if you take the "successful resist = your victim is on to you" approach to mind control. Or worse, if you take the "you can't tell that your victim just resisted, but is playing along" approach.

The 99% of non-mind mages out there will not tolerate the <1% of people who can do this. Cue the Psychic Inquisition. A lynch mob might be crude, but a single mind mage won't be able to control 150 people all at once. More sophisticated regions might force Mind Mages to register (a la CS), and might put together special units to hunt down and kill rogue Mind Mages (teams that might include their own mind mage, too).

So if your players start getting greedy and abuse their power, bring on the gestapo, the lynch mob (bonus points if they have pitchforks and torches), special arm bands they have to wear in public, et cetera. Or, if they skip town or flee the territory, send assasins, knights, or vengeful angels/dragons/demigods ("That town is under MY protection, mortal!") after them.

Actually, this whole line of thinking really makes the case for having a psychic guild, to police their own in order to stave off such mass hysteria. This isn't about ALL psychics, after all. Remember, most psychics can't directly control another mind. People won't go after Healers, and Sensitives could actually be useful in tracking down Mind Mages. But many non-psychics will not make such distinctions, so such guilds will take matters into their own hands.

You could always flip things around on them. They come across a town that's been ransacked by mind mages, and people are starting to realize it. The party is either hooked by the call of justice, or the locals mistakenly accuse the party of being the culpritsl

Few things are as inevitable as you paint them, nor is a Psychic Inquisition as it were since with a large minority of people having psychic powers they REALLY aren't going to be supportive of such a thing since the whole problem with witch hunts is that they invariably injure and kill far more non-witches than they ever do actual witches. Backing such a hunt promptly puts you in the 'no guys really I've a few minor powers but I'm no Mind Mage!' declarations right before the torture begins, and after you've 'confessed' you're quickly on the dead end, and if you have the ability to endure the torture well again they just keep torturing you until you're dead or by some miracle you're rescued.

After all you can't prove someone isn't a mind mage, they look like everyone else and there are no 'detect mind mage' powers around so anyone displaying psychic powers instantly becomes one to the mind of a mob. That old Twilight Zone episode with the suburb that starts turning on each other thinking they're aliens while the real aliens sit back and watch laughing about it as it only took intermittently turning services off and on to drive them into an hysteria is a good example of the problems you encounter.

[Hotrod]

Oh, I'm not saying that a psychic inquisition would be clear-cut or easy, or even that they'd get the right people. Quite the contrary! Think Salem witch trials, KKK lynch mobs, and the worst parts of human (or humanoid?) nature.

As for countermeasures to the tactics mentioned above:

Teleport Object heists/misdirection: wards on the object itself (not necessarily in view, either). The shop owner, employees, and customers may well notice the merchandise going *POOF*, and the first suspects will be the out-of-towners. Alternately, you could have a rival watch them, then use the same tricks to incriminate them.

Most shops that sell high-end stuff have more than one employee, and they will notice someone walking off with high-end stuff without payment. I would imagine that the truly high-end shops will have security that includes some psychics who are on the lookout for that kind of thing.

It sounds like Kiralon had a party of obnoxious players who were more interested in exploits of mischief than the adventure he wanted to run. That's a shame, but it seems more a function of their maturity level than the particular OCC they played.

[Eashamahel]

Oh man, a non-psychic inquisition, trying to find and expose psychics, because the psychics are manipulating too many people? This can only go well...

[Nightmask]

Oh, I'm not saying that a psychic inquisition would be clear-cut or easy, or even that they'd get the right people. Quite the contrary! Think Salem witch trials, KKK lynch mobs, and the worst parts of human (or humanoid?) nature.

As for countermeasures to the tactics mentioned above:

Teleport Object heists/misdirection: wards on the object itself (not necessarily in view, either). The shop owner, employees, and customers may well notice the merchandise going *POOF*, and the first suspects will be the out-of-towners. Alternately, you could have a rival watch them, then use the same tricks to incriminate them.

Most shops that sell high-end stuff have more than one employee, and they will notice someone walking off with high-end stuff without payment. I would imagine that the truly high-end shops will have security that includes some psychics who are on the lookout for that kind of thing.

It sounds like Kiralon had a party of obnoxious players who were more interested in exploits of mischief than the adventure he wanted to run. That's a shame, but it seems more a function of their maturity level than the particular OCC they played.

Seems so, it could have been any OCC but just happened to be the Mind Mage that was getting used to be disruptive resulting in the Mind Mage OCC being blamed rather than the actual source of the problem, the players.

[Hotrod]

Oh man, a non-psychic inquisition, trying to find and expose psychics, because the psychics are manipulating too many people? This can only go well...

The knee-jerk would be mob rule. "No-one can be trusted! Anyone can be gotten to, but there's strength in numbers, brother!" They can only corrupt one at a time, so only the mob can be trusted.

Wealthier people would turn to the alchemist: "They're out there! They're after you! The only way you can protect yourself is with my charms!" Imagine the killing they'd make on "protection against psychics" items. Imagine the killing that charlatans would make selling fake anti-psychic charms.

Scapegoaters could have a field day. "That psychic made me do it!" could be an excuse for murder, infidelity, treason, you name it (though that's a risky ploy, it may work as a last-ditch defense). Ambitious misanthropes could frame rivals, enemies, and superiors. Old jealousies and paranoias could flare up. Think Nazis and Jews, but more so, because psychics pose a less-dubious threat.

Innocent psychics would get targeted for abuse. I think healers would be ok at first, since they're the most harmless (and underpowered) of psychics, but then other psychics might start masquerading as healers (since any chucklhead can pick healing powers), which could lead to widening problems if/when other folks start catching on.

Yeah, this could lead to some pretty interesting adventures, even (or especially) if not all the characters are psychic.

[kiralon]

Oh, I'm not saying that a psychic inquisition would be clear-cut or easy, or even that they'd get the right people. Quite the contrary! Think Salem witch trials, KKK lynch mobs, and the worst parts of human (or humanoid?) nature.

As for countermeasures to the tactics mentioned above:
Most shops that sell high-end stuff have more than one employee, and they will notice someone walking off with
Teleport Object heists/misdirection: wards on the object itself (not necessarily in view, either). The shop owner, employees, and customers may well notice the merchandise going *POOF*, and the first suspects will be the out-of-towners. Alternately, you could have a rival watch them, then use the same tricks to incriminate them.

high-end stuff without payment. I would imagine that the truly high-end shops will have security that includes some psychics who are on the lookout for that kind of thing.

It sounds like Kiralon had a party of obnoxious players who were more interested in exploits of mischief than the adventure he wanted to run. That's a shame, but it seems more a function of their maturity level than the particular OCC they played.

Seems so, it could have been any OCC but just happened to be the Mind Mage that was getting used to be disruptive resulting in the Mind Mage OCC being blamed rather than the actual source of the problem, the players.

I have played with these guys plenty of times, obnoxious, they can be, but the MM is the only class that got out of hand. Yes there can be witnesses, but the 3 Mind mages each put an illusion on each other to make themselves and the other 2 look like someone else, and they all do it, so there are 3 sepereate saving through vs illusion, and dcepending on which ones you fail changes what you see. But that was if they werent doing it while possessing somebody so that the possessed person cops all the blame and cant remember a thing. (transfer ISP is a wonderful thing)

The mind mage is the only class that can do all this from level one. Wizards can do this sort of stuff, but they are much easier caught and protected against and its a lot harder for them to get the collection of spells required, and the level needed to pull it off, and wards on the items themselves is expensive and a waste, especially when they are stealing things that cost less then wards themselves. They didnt go foR the one 50k heist, they did 10 5k heists instead, as I said the things they did was clever, and they didnt pick on anyone they detected as powerful or any one person too much.

I'd like to know what other classes can do this, as I havent found them, and the more traditional methods of crime prevention work on them.
How do you stop a mind mage mentally possessing someone, getting them to hand over all their money, or stealing something from someone and dropping the items off. If the items detect as magic they are left alone, if they detect as psionic they are left alone. If they dont detect as either the players will get their loot and do a runner.

[Hotrod]

A warlock can summon an elemental at level 1 (I think). A witch at level 1 is pretty potent. Any character with the right skillset can make natural drugs/toxins that could be used for all kinds of nefarious purposes.

I agree, though, the potency of the mind mage (with the right power selections and a lack of a conscience/code of ethics) can be game-breaking with the rules as written. If I were running a game with them pulling those kinds of pranks, I'd probably throwing the consequences of their actions in their faces. Have them encounter highwaymen who were driven to a life of crime after being blamed for the characters' crimes in order to buy their children out of slavery. Have them come to a town that's already been picked clean by a similar group, where a third of the population is dead after turning on each other in a paranoid witch-hunt that got out of hand. Have a noble hire them to hunt down a group of rogue psychics, only for the group to discover that they're hunting themselves (but in the process, see the consequences of driving town after town under to debt/tax collectors and the like).

If they don't grow a conscience, then sick some vengeful angels, assassins, or deities on them.

As for how to stop them: Give everyone who successfully saves against them the full realization that that character just tried to screw with their mind. That should make people scream bloody murder.

[Hotrod]

Alternately, have some mind mage (or group thereof, a guild, perhaps) with psionics screw with THEIR minds. Give 'em a taste of their own medicine. They wake up in a strange place, having no idea how they got there. It could be a "Hangover" type of adventure (played for comedy) or a "Total Recall" kind of adventure.

[kiralon]

Alternately, have some mind mage (or group thereof, a guild, perhaps) with psionics screw with THEIR minds. Give 'em a taste of their own medicine. They wake up in a strange place, having no idea how they got there. It could be a "Hangover" type of adventure (played for comedy) or a "Total Recall" kind of adventure.

Well I had an 11th level Undead Hunter chase them down because he thought they were demons or demon worshipers causing havok. He tracked them to where they were camped. Drank an Invisiblity Potion. Used a cone of silence spell on a scroll, and then proceeded to murder each of the players in their tents. Bloody sixth sense and telekinetic shield almost got them out of it though, and the one player that got to fight back almost killed him, and the only reason he didnt was because the undead hunter had a pe of 24 and max HP for his level (i.e i cheated) and the mind mage was half his level. (25d6 Mind bolt).

Their next characters were tattoed with curse marks, and woke up in an inn, with no idea how they got there.
go tyranthraxus mwahahahahahaha.

but then I went back to first ed. MM wasnt the only reason but it was definately part of the reason.
MM's are suddenly a lot less dangerous again, especially at lower levels. I also ruled that if you use a psionic ability on something that had an aura (mostly only living things in my world) they got a save, so tking someone gave a save. You could attempt to tk their sword though because the swords sticks out of the aura unless held close to body. The aura is vaguely egg shaped with the pointier bit at the bottom. So tp object to someone gave them a save as well etc. I also gave the auras colours and layers for alignment, class and race. andbigger and brighter the stronger/more powerful you are.

[X'Zanthar]

Psionics are definitely powerful. A player in our group played low-key, acted like the party's lackey which made him far less a target. As far as mischief, the character was not that type, but did run across some who were and being quite a bit more powerful than them put them in their place. Several psionic guilds/groups developed over the course of the game, one quite nasty.

[Tor]

Mind mages don't play too different from a wizard or warlock but have some advantages like being able to make as many psionic attacks as they have h2h actions.

Couldn't we Megaversally channel the new casting rates from RUE into PF? That brings spells 1-6 into the 1-action realm.

Someone who subverts minds on a whim would probably be about one notch below a witch or a summoner in most areas.

By 'below' do you mean worse (lower) or less bad?

Badness of witches kinda depends on what they do, which varies based on what their lord wants. As for those who sacrifice their firstborn, if it's done early enough that isn't anywhere near as bad as dominating full sentient and developed individuals.

In that regard, I think Mind Mages are worse than Summoners. Sure, a summoner can kidnap you, and exert his will to force you to obey him, but you're at least CONSCIOUS of it.

Mind Mages can actually wipe out your memories themselves, insert false ones, alter your emotional stage, or possess you and move you around like a sleeping puppet. They can 'suggest' things that you will end up thinking were your own violations.

Batman would take being Summoned over being Mind-Maged any day. At least he could bide his time, work up his willpower, plot revenge, know who he was.

Mind Mages, much like some of the stronger magics, can gradually warp or even erase you.

It would be silly if it wasn't necessary to stop players characters from insert memory, hypnotic suggesting their way through markets and towns. insert memory, I paid well for that, give me my change or these high quality swords don't cost much surely hypnotic suggestions. Or teleport objects out of jewellers, or mind wiping guards that come to investigate.

Requiring the King's permission to use psionics isn't necessary to stop PCs. You really just need a psionic police force. Much like how the CS has Psi-Net to monitor and police psychics so they avoid abuse. Or how in the TV series "Tomorrow People" they recruit and indoctrinate them to catch rogues. The X-men also serve a similar role. Or how a sorcerer in Nightbane might eventually learn of and deal with anyone abusing the publick.

Having thieves pilfering all the jewelry stores could eventually destabilize society, and there are eventually going to be Mind Mages with incentive to impede that. Either they are very moral, or else they have a stock in that society. Perhaps the Mind Mage rules the city and doesn't want you alarming his citizens. Maybe those were HER jewels stored in the vault you pilfered. It all balances so long as you're not the sole Mind Mage on the planet.

the Mind Mage OCC being blamed rather than the actual source of the problem, the players.

All the players would be guilty of is roleplaying. Clearly if it occurs to them to do these things, they are within the realm of human imagination and morality for some to do. The only question is whether or not a character's alignment conforms to the actions taken. Since many are playing Robin Hood roles, they probably do.

Rather than blame the players, we should recognize that this is simply a manifestation of the world and its OCCs, and that part of being a GM is accepting this and coming up with countermeasures.

This is fine roleplaying too, because these crises WOULD stimulate countermeasures. It really helps to paint how different this world is from our own. Much like with Changelings and wizards and summoners.

Give everyone who successfully saves against them the full realization that that character just tried to screw with their mind. That should make people scream bloody murder.

Naw, not unless it says so under the power should we do this, that's changing the rules.

You could of course have people DEDUCE they got messed with, after time has gone by and stories and details stop matching up. The more intelligent ones can do so, and then beware.

[MrShowtime]

In my opinion, a Mind Mage is the absolute best character class in all of PFRPG. the abilities of such a being are so powerful they can be nearly unstoppable. but no matter the powers the player needs to A) play his character in character (follow alignment etc) B) allow the GM to move the adventure along (cause I'm sure endless thievery isn't part of anyones adventure ideas) C) realize what's within reason.

I've made one mind mage in my time. A dwarf who, thanks to some great rolls, was a great melee fighter as well. while bio-manipulation was used often enough as a quick way through mindless guards, a morning star to the face of his enemies was one of the things Grrrr!!! (Yes his name was Grrrr!!! Grimflame) enjoyed the most in life. I made that a huge part of his back story.

Anyone can act like a ******* while playing... It's playing a great character (whether good or evil)

The only other time I used psionics heavily in game was while I was GMing... one of my players was convinced to release a Specter from his imprisonment within a sarcophagus (He trapped the player in the sarcophagus after being released while convincing him and the other character in the room this was not only a good idea but needed). I used the many powers at my disposal in battle against the players (they met up with him a couple sessions later) and toyed with them so much that by the end of the battle two characters were near death, one was blind, one thought they were was watching another character raise her dead parents and so on while never actually physically harming any of them and not taking one hit until the end of the battle... I'm not the type to kill off any of my players characters on purpose (which my players know) so it was all in good fun.