Changelings & Salt or Alcohol?

[RiftJunkie]

Would the psionic power of Impervious to Poison/Toxin stop the effects of Salt or Alcohol? If so, for how long? Combined with Bio-Regeneration (self) : make for a good cover?

[Nightmask]

One would think so, those are toxins in regards to Changelings (and alcohol is really a toxin to human beings as well, albeit nowhere near as severe), one would hardly be impervious to toxins if it didn't deal with your most pressing vulnerabilities (i.e. what's most toxic to you).

[kiralon]

It would depend on why something effects them.
I'd definitely say yes for the Alcohol, because its a toxin and they just get drunk quicker.
I'd probably say no for the salt because for me its more like an allergic reaction.

[Nightmask]

It would depend on why something effects them.
I'd definitely say yes for the Alcohol, because its a toxin and they just get drunk quicker.
I'd probably say no for the salt because for me its more like an allergic reaction.

You do realize that allergies are basically the body's overreaction to something that it recognizes as toxic but isn't as toxic as it overreacts over? Plus I'd be really annoyed at having a character end up dead because the GM declared what killed him he defined as technically not being toxic in spite of it having just killed him. That's in the realm of 'The Operation was a success! Too bad the patient died.'.

[The Dark Elf]

Totally! We had a changeling that used gullet of iron to pass.

Don't know on the durations but I'm one for simplicity, say each go equals one salty course of a pint of mead (or both if together). Doesn't the power have duration?

[kiralon]

Well Ill have to use negate toxins the next time someone stabs me because swords are toxic to the body, and I'll have to negate toxins the next time I drink lava because its toxic to the body as well. Everything is toxic to the body in large enough amounts. Would you let negate toxins save someone who had drunk too much water (dilutional hyponatremia). I wouldn't as water isn't a toxin.

But no, in my games negate toxins wouldn't save you from allergic reactions to peanuts either.

[Nightmask]

Well Ill have to use negate toxins the next time someone stabs me because swords are toxic to the body, and I'll have to negate toxins the next time I drink lava because its toxic to the body as well. Everything is toxic to the body in large enough amounts. Would you let negate toxins save someone who had drunk too much water (dilutional hyponatremia). I wouldn't as water isn't a toxin.

But no, in my games negate toxins wouldn't save you from allergic reactions to peanuts either.

You're resorting to absurdity comparisons there to try and imply that there's no difference between being stabbed and having an allergic reaction when there's absolutely nothing about them that relates. Same goes with with water comparison. Swords aren't toxins, hot lava isn't a toxin (generally), they don't kill due to toxic reactions they kill by breaking or burning things and again it's quite ridiculous to try and claim that they are even remotely in the same category as an allergen or other poison.

Peanuts are toxic to some people, insisting that because it's an allergic reaction it isn't really toxic to them is ridiculous. It doesn't matter that the toxic response from the allergen isn't quite the same as the toxic response to arsenic because the toxic response to arsenic isn't going to be the same as mercury poisoning or Strychnine poisoning, but they're all toxins and therefor should all be covered. Because 'oh no that's not a toxin' when the follow-up is 'then why am I dead?' you simply aren't going to come up with an argument how something that killed them like any other toxin wasn't a toxin that anyone will believe.

[arouetta]

I can't find the reference off the top of my head, but somewhere there is a passage of someone experimenting on changelings and salt. The symptoms described were not an allergic reaction. It was closer to heavy metal buildup. Does anyone else recall where that passage might be?

[kiralon]

Well Ill have to use negate toxins the next time someone stabs me because swords are toxic to the body, and I'll have to negate toxins the next time I drink lava because its toxic to the body as well. Everything is toxic to the body in large enough amounts. Would you let negate toxins save someone who had drunk too much water (dilutional hyponatremia). I wouldn't as water isn't a toxin.

But no, in my games negate toxins wouldn't save you from allergic reactions to peanuts either.

You're resorting to absurdity comparisons there to try and imply that there's no difference between being stabbed and having an allergic reaction when there's absolutely nothing about them that relates. Same goes with with water comparison. Swords aren't toxins, hot lava isn't a toxin (generally), they don't kill due to toxic reactions they kill by breaking or burning things and again it's quite ridiculous to try and claim that they are even remotely in the same category as an allergen or other poison.

Peanuts are toxic to some people, insisting that because it's an allergic reaction it isn't really toxic to them is ridiculous. It doesn't matter that the toxic response from the allergen isn't quite the same as the toxic response to arsenic because the toxic response to arsenic isn't going to be the same as mercury poisoning or Strychnine poisoning, but they're all toxins and therefor should all be covered. Because 'oh no that's not a toxin' when the follow-up is 'then why am I dead?' you simply aren't going to come up with an argument how something that killed them like any other toxin wasn't a toxin that anyone will believe.

They were supposed to be ridiculous, everything is toxic if you have enough, salt makes humans sick as well but I don't make all the salt in someone's body disappear when they negate toxins and bacterial infections are toxic but show me a dm that will let you get rid of the effects of the red plague with negate toxins, and its only the toxins from the bacteria that are hurting/killing you. I will class anything that comes under poisons as a toxin, and that's it, otherwise it effects way to many things. The day negate toxins works on salt is the day salt gets classed as a poison, and everyone dies when they eat it. Sunlight is very toxic to vampires, can they negate toxins so they can walk in the sun, same with holy water, its toxic, there is a very vigorous allergic reaction when it touches their skin.

[RiftJunkie]

Totally! We had a changeling that used gullet of iron to pass.

Don't know on the durations but I'm one for simplicity, say each go equals one salty course of a pint of mead (or both if together). Doesn't the power have duration?

That's kinda what I was going for. Impervious to Poison/Toxin has a duration of 2 min. Keep using it during the meal and then use Bio-Regeneration on yourself for dessert!
I believe the Impervious would be sufficient to zero out any side effects on its own and keep you from harm, but using Bio-Regeneration at the end should seal the deal.

[RiftJunkie]

Well Ill have to use negate toxins the next time someone stabs me because swords are toxic to the body, and I'll have to negate toxins the next time I drink lava because its toxic to the body as well. Everything is toxic to the body in large enough amounts. Would you let negate toxins save someone who had drunk too much water (dilutional hyponatremia). I wouldn't as water isn't a toxin.

But no, in my games negate toxins wouldn't save you from allergic reactions to peanuts either.

You're resorting to absurdity comparisons there to try and imply that there's no difference between being stabbed and having an allergic reaction when there's absolutely nothing about them that relates. Same goes with with water comparison. Swords aren't toxins, hot lava isn't a toxin (generally), they don't kill due to toxic reactions they kill by breaking or burning things and again it's quite ridiculous to try and claim that they are even remotely in the same category as an allergen or other poison.

Peanuts are toxic to some people, insisting that because it's an allergic reaction it isn't really toxic to them is ridiculous. It doesn't matter that the toxic response from the allergen isn't quite the same as the toxic response to arsenic because the toxic response to arsenic isn't going to be the same as mercury poisoning or Strychnine poisoning, but they're all toxins and therefor should all be covered. Because 'oh no that's not a toxin' when the follow-up is 'then why am I dead?' you simply aren't going to come up with an argument how something that killed them like any other toxin wasn't a toxin that anyone will believe.

They were supposed to be ridiculous, everything is toxic if you have enough, salt makes humans sick as well but I don't make all the salt in someone's body disappear when they negate toxins and bacterial infections are toxic but show me a dm that will let you get rid of the effects of the red plague with negate toxins, and its only the toxins from the bacteria that are hurting/killing you. I will class anything that comes under poisons as a toxin, and that's it, otherwise it effects way to many things. The day negate toxins works on salt is the day salt gets classed as a poison, and everyone dies when they eat it. Sunlight is very toxic to vampires, can they negate toxins so they can walk in the sun, same with holy water, its toxic, there is a very vigorous allergic reaction when it touches their skin.

kiralon,
I think I understand where you are coming from. However, I might offer this as an argument about allergies:
Someone with a bad allergy to peanuts will have a reaction where their airway closes, anaphylactic shock, etc. (possible death) due to a reaction from the allergen.....
Someone with a bad allergy to nerve agent will have a reaction where their airway closes, anaphylactic shock, etc. (possible death) due to a reaction from the allergen.....
Most people would not consider nerve agent to be an allergen, but instead a toxin. Just because many people are immune to peanuts as a toxin/allergen does not mean it's any less lethal to some.
Allergy = Toxin. Just depends if you have an immunity to it. Therefore, I believe Impervious to Poison/Toxin should work on allergies.

Wouldn't that be great for hay fever season?

[kiralon]

Totally! We had a changeling that used gullet of iron to pass.

Don't know on the durations but I'm one for simplicity, say each go equals one salty course of a pint of mead (or both if together). Doesn't the power have duration?

That's kinda what I was going for. Impervious to Poison/Toxin has a duration of 2 min. Keep using it during the meal and then use Bio-Regeneration on yourself for dessert!
I believe the Impervious would be sufficient to zero out any side effects on its own and keep you from harm, but using Bio-Regeneration at the end should seal the deal.

I don't thing that you would even need to bio regenerate at the end with the potion, as it does mention any other non magical substances.

and looking at where acids are in the book, negate toxins should probably work on acid, as they are classed as toxins
Luckily I have never had anyone try to negate toxins on acid, they just wash it off with water.

and with allergic reactions its not so much the substance that is the issue, but the antibodies your body produces to deal with them (in an overreaction). When an antibody that is primed comes into contact with the allergic substance (like peanuts), histamines and other chemicals are released. Histamines are what give the swelling affect, make the blood vessels relax, and the swelling can close airways and the relaxed blood vessels can cause dangerously low blood pressure. Anti-histamines work on most of the effects but not all. So the person isn't actually dying of peanuts with an allergic reaction. They either suffocate from swelling or die from lack of blood pressure as their own body kills them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Would the psionic power of Impervious to Poison/Toxin stop the effects of Salt or Alcohol? ...snip

After consulting the power's text.
The poison/toxin is neutralized. If activated before ingesting then there is no effects. If activated after ingesting then 1/2 damage/effects.

[kiralon]

kiralon,
I think I understand where you are coming from. However, I might offer this as an argument about allergies:
Someone with a bad allergy to peanuts will have a reaction where their airway closes, anaphylactic shock, etc. (possible death) due to a reaction from the allergen.....
Someone with a bad allergy to nerve agent will have a reaction where their airway closes, anaphylactic shock, etc. (possible death) due to a reaction from the allergen.....
Most people would not consider nerve agent to be an allergen, but instead a toxin. Just because many people are immune to peanuts as a toxin/allergen does not mean it's any less lethal to some.
Allergy = Toxin. Just depends if you have an immunity to it. Therefore, I believe Impervious to Poison/Toxin should work on allergies.

Wouldn't that be great for hay fever season?

For me if the effect is directly from the substance its a poison and negate toxins will work, if the effect is from the bodies reaction to something, its an allergy, not a poison and negate toxins wont help as the things doing the damage is secretions from the body.
If negate poisons and toxins would work on histamine, which negates it all in the body, The problem then is in the brain, histamine regulates a wide variety of physiological processes, including water and food intake, sleep-wake cycles, locomotion, and memory and learning, So what happens to the affected by the person with suddenly no histamines in their body.
and following that as it only works on toxins, and lets say peanuts was the cause, the peanuts aren't the toxin doing the damage (its histamine)so the substance in peanuts causing the reaction would still be about so after the negate toxins wore off the body would have its reaction again as histamines suddenly start building up in specific areas of the body again.
Or if you go the other way with salt and say that the allergen is the toxin, what happens to someone when all the salt in their body is altered to not be salt as salt was the toxin.

So for me the primary damaging agent is the toxin, so if something causes your body to make more of something so it becomes toxic because the amount in your body is higher then normal, which doesn't harm the body then bad luck.

[Nightmask]

kiralon,
I think I understand where you are coming from. However, I might offer this as an argument about allergies:
Someone with a bad allergy to peanuts will have a reaction where their airway closes, anaphylactic shock, etc. (possible death) due to a reaction from the allergen.....
Someone with a bad allergy to nerve agent will have a reaction where their airway closes, anaphylactic shock, etc. (possible death) due to a reaction from the allergen.....
Most people would not consider nerve agent to be an allergen, but instead a toxin. Just because many people are immune to peanuts as a toxin/allergen does not mean it's any less lethal to some.
Allergy = Toxin. Just depends if you have an immunity to it. Therefore, I believe Impervious to Poison/Toxin should work on allergies.

Wouldn't that be great for hay fever season?

For me if the effect is directly from the substance its a poison and negate toxins will work, if the effect is from the bodies reaction to something, its an allergy, not a poison and negate toxins wont help as the things doing the damage is secretions from the body.
If negate poisons and toxins would work on histamine, which negates it all in the body, The problem then is in the brain, histamine regulates a wide variety of physiological processes, including water and food intake, sleep-wake cycles, locomotion, and memory and learning, So what happens to the affected by the person with suddenly no histamines in their body.
and following that as it only works on toxins, and lets say peanuts was the cause, the peanuts aren't the toxin doing the damage (its histamine)so the substance in peanuts causing the reaction would still be about so after the negate toxins wore off the body would have its reaction again as histamines suddenly start building up in specific areas of the body again.
Or if you go the other way with salt and say that the allergen is the toxin, what happens to someone when all the salt in their body is altered to not be salt as salt was the toxin.

So for me the primary damaging agent is the toxin, so if something causes your body to make more of something so it becomes toxic because the amount in your body is higher then normal, which doesn't harm the body then bad luck.

Except that then makes the agent a toxin/poison, it's causing the body to do things harmful to it. It's causing cells to react in non-normal ways because it's harmful to them, and those non-standard reactions cause more problems, which again is what poisons/toxins do. The fact that it's causing cells to produce more of something that is the end-killer doesn't negate the fact that it wouldn't be doing that without the presence of that toxic substance.

[kiralon]

So when what happens to the body when all the toxin is negated. Do you now collapse and die from having no salt in your body
because the negate toxins would change all of it at once not just a little bit at time

[Aku-Arkaine]

So when what happens to the body when all the toxin is negated. Do you now collapse and die from having no salt in your body
because the negate toxins would change all of it at once not just a little bit at time

That would assume that salt is an essential mineral for Changeling physiology.

[kiralon]

So when what happens to the body when all the toxin is negated. Do you now collapse and die from having no salt in your body
because the negate toxins would change all of it at once not just a little bit at time

That would assume that salt is an essential mineral for Changeling physiology.

I think its more of an assumption that they don't as they eat the same things, drink the same things and crap the same things and then sleep, and I'd bet that the changeling blood you draw is red, so yes I would say its an essential mineral. If they ate fairy dust and drank moonlight id probably think differently.

[Nightmask]

So when what happens to the body when all the toxin is negated. Do you now collapse and die from having no salt in your body
because the negate toxins would change all of it at once not just a little bit at time

That would assume that salt is an essential mineral for Changeling physiology.

I think its more of an assumption that they don't as they eat the same things, drink the same things and crap the same things and then sleep, and I'd bet that the changeling blood you draw is red, so yes I would say its an essential mineral. If they ate fairy dust and drank moonlight id probably think differently.

They don't eat all the same things as humans, nor does the generally common diet mean that they should have the same biology. There are also many things in the human body that are toxic to it but only in certain doses, so even if changelings do have salt in their biology doesn't mean that it's safe for them to consume. Heck there are human beings who actually see water as toxic, they can't even have it touch their skin without suffering for it. They're extremely rare and unfortunate sorts but do exist, so the idea of an entire alien species finding salt toxic isn't such a difficult thing to believe even if they eat normal human foods otherwise.

[Aku-Arkaine]

So when what happens to the body when all the toxin is negated. Do you now collapse and die from having no salt in your body
because the negate toxins would change all of it at once not just a little bit at time

That would assume that salt is an essential mineral for Changeling physiology.

I think its more of an assumption that they don't as they eat the same things, drink the same things and crap the same things and then sleep, and I'd bet that the changeling blood you draw is red, so yes I would say its an essential mineral. If they ate fairy dust and drank moonlight id probably think differently.

Maybe salt reacts with Changelings the way that Copper and Iron react in the Human body. In excess levels in the bloodstream they can cause toxicity.

[kiralon]

So when what happens to the body when all the toxin is negated. Do you now collapse and die from having no salt in your body
because the negate toxins would change all of it at once not just a little bit at time

That would assume that salt is an essential mineral for Changeling physiology.

I think its more of an assumption that they don't as they eat the same things, drink the same things and crap the same things and then sleep, and I'd bet that the changeling blood you draw is red, so yes I would say its an essential mineral. If they ate fairy dust and drank moonlight id probably think differently.

They don't eat all the same things as humans, nor does the generally common diet mean that they should have the same biology. There are also many things in the human body that are toxic to it but only in certain doses, so even if changelings do have salt in their biology doesn't mean that it's safe for them to consume. Heck there are human beings who actually see water as toxic, they can't even have it touch their skin without suffering for it. They're extremely rare and unfortunate sorts but do exist, so the idea of an entire alien species finding salt toxic isn't such a difficult thing to believe even if they eat normal human foods otherwise.

I have no problems with it, but if something has special dietary requirements it will usually be in some sort of special notes, and all the changelings I have dm'd have eaten as normal except for avoiding known high salt foods. So please show me where it says changelings don't eat the same things, and then I will believe that they are more different, but until then I will treat them the way I do human and dwarf physiologies(and most other races that eat the same as people do). I know there are people with lots of rare allergies, and having an entire alien species being allergic to salt isn't hard to believe, but they eat the same as humans as I have never seen a special food list for changelings, which is odd because most food has some levels of salt so they do have a tolerance, its just not as high as a standard humans.
But for me a toxin is something that is introduced to the body, not made by the body, if its made by the body and negate toxins works on it then all drugs and toxins in the body disappear when negate toxins is used, not just when they are toxic levels, so most drugs that the body makes would disappear too and you would have one very unhappy person. I haven't seen anywhere in the description where it differentiates between toxic and non toxic levels.

So for example, I give one of my players a tiny amount of cyanide which is a poison, but a tiny amount not enough to have a toxic effect
does negate poisons get rid of it
I say yes because its a toxin, doesn't matter if 1ppm doesn't kill you.

and then there is the issue of toxicity
you give them a compound that makes them happy or sad
the compound has only changed their mood, not done damage, does negate toxins work on it.
If so then what happens to the chemicals the body makes naturally to change and control moods, do they disappear too.

Using negate toxins to get rid of naturally occurring compounds in the body is a very slippery slope.
The description of the power says ingested or introduced to the blood stream, which tends to point to external sources.

But if something is ever toxic, I would always class it as toxic. Too much water in the blood is toxic, so if you ever used negate toxins the water in your blood would be negated. Normally I would say a poison would be converted to water, but as water cant be converted to water I would just make it disappear.

[RiftJunkie]

kiralon,
I see your point. I was probably simplifying things for game mechanics. I guess I always thought something like Negate Poison/Toxin would just take you back to your baseline normal, whatever that may be.

Not directed at anybody, just my rant:
I find it interesting how heated debates (not necessarily with bad intent) can start over applying real world physics to a game. I think it's good on some levels to keep the game "realistic". On other levels, it just bogs down playtime. Then there is the theoretical physics that are used in games. Many are accepted beliefs that have not been proven (by that I mean something like a fusion reactor - we don't have one yet) and people argue over what happens when (apply condition here). I try not to get bent around the axle over such things. I will argue my point of view, but in the end what matters is what works for the game. Anything can go.

[Nightmask]

kiralon,
I see your point. I was probably simplifying things for game mechanics. I guess I always thought something like Negate Poison/Toxin would just take you back to your baseline normal, whatever that may be.

Not directed at anybody, just my rant:
I find it interesting how heated debates (not necessarily with bad intent) can start over applying real world physics to a game. I think it's good on some levels to keep the game "realistic". On other levels, it just bogs down playtime. Then there is the theoretical physics that are used in games. Many are accepted beliefs that have not been proven (by that I mean something like a fusion reactor - we don't have one yet) and people argue over what happens when (apply condition here). I try not to get bent around the axle over such things. I will argue my point of view, but in the end what matters is what works for the game. Anything can go.

It's a difficult line to walk along, when and where to accept that RL physics kind of fade out and you have to accept Game physics instead. Salt may not be considered a poison in RL but in the game it is, at least for Changelings. It's harmful or fatal to them in doses we'd consider normal for poisonous substances, so it certainly qualifies as poison to them and should be affected by Impervious to Poisons/Toxins.

[Hotrod]

If it causes internal damage or adverse reactions in your body by way of chemical interactions from a non-living substance, then I would rule that it would work (though I'd probably follow Kevin's example for gray areas and let a dice roll decide if it came to a debate). Allergens, chemical weapons, chemical imbalances, acids, and toxins would all be negated. Infection, disease, and direct, physical trauma would not be affected (though it could possibly slow down or stop some of the effects of sepsis, jaundice, and kidney failure). Salt and Alchohol would certainly qualify, and they make sense as a way for a changeling character to survive in a very hostile world.

To me, a more interesting question would be, how would this power affect acid?

[kiralon]

well if it can turn basilisk's eye into water or whatever negating means, what's a little acid. I was just looking in the main book as to what is classed as toxins, because there is a list.

and salt only makes changelings sick, it doesn't kill them. Salt makes humans sick too, just in higher doses, but changelings eat salt every day in their food so it can't be to bad for them.
Would negate toxins work on someone who has eaten to much chocolate and is feeling ill. Its seems the consensus is yes, because for it to be making you ill its a toxin. I don't think it is, its just overeating. Which means negate poison should get rid of a hangover as well.

I think I might just stick to the list that the game calls toxins, as this 4ppe power seems to know just how much of what is supposed to be in your body and can supposedly restore you to that amount if you don't have enough or have too much of a particular compound. So it can create or destroy any body made chemical, and know what the amounts are for those chemicals. Its just to much for 4ppe

The description says it can negate it fully if you have advance knowledge of its(the substance) deadly properties, salt still only makes them ill, so its not a deadly compound.

[Aku-Arkaine]

I talked to a bio-chem doctoral candidate at work. He said by the currently accepted view of how toxins are defined today that salt in large quantities would qualify. He then went off on a long spiel of why mixed with so many technical terms that my eyes glassed over. I wouldn't be surprised if I had a sweat drop like from some anime comedy.

[Nightmask]

well if it can turn basilisk's eye into water or whatever negating means, what's a little acid. I was just looking in the main book as to what is classed as toxins, because there is a list.

and salt only makes changelings sick, it doesn't kill them. Salt makes humans sick too, just in higher doses, but changelings eat salt every day in their food so it can't be to bad for them.
Would negate toxins work on someone who has eaten to much chocolate and is feeling ill. Its seems the consensus is yes, because for it to be making you ill its a toxin. I don't think it is, its just overeating. Which means negate poison should get rid of a hangover as well.

I think I might just stick to the list that the game calls toxins, as this 4ppe power seems to know just how much of what is supposed to be in your body and can supposedly restore you to that amount if you don't have enough or have too much of a particular compound. So it can create or destroy any body made chemical, and know what the amounts are for those chemicals. Its just to much for 4ppe

The body knows in general what it has and works to regulate levels to keep things in a safe zone, so why do you think a psychic power guided by the mind with a focused purpose to eliminate something harmful to it wouldn't? Once you start down that 'well how can that power possibly know how to do X?' path you start invalidating pretty much everything when you do that, ignoring the setting and that we're told that it does just like we're told other powers do X so they must know how to do X somehow. Your brain doesn't know how it sees either yet manages to do it just fine because it doesn't have to know how things work just to be able to do them.

[kiralon]

well if it can turn basilisk's eye into water or whatever negating means, what's a little acid. I was just looking in the main book as to what is classed as toxins, because there is a list.

and salt only makes changelings sick, it doesn't kill them. Salt makes humans sick too, just in higher doses, but changelings eat salt every day in their food so it can't be to bad for them.
Would negate toxins work on someone who has eaten to much chocolate and is feeling ill. Its seems the consensus is yes, because for it to be making you ill its a toxin. I don't think it is, its just overeating. Which means negate poison should get rid of a hangover as well.

I think I might just stick to the list that the game calls toxins, as this 4ppe power seems to know just how much of what is supposed to be in your body and can supposedly restore you to that amount if you don't have enough or have too much of a particular compound. So it can create or destroy any body made chemical, and know what the amounts are for those chemicals. Its just to much for 4ppe

The body knows in general what it has and works to regulate levels to keep things in a safe zone, so why do you think a psychic power guided by the mind with a focused purpose to eliminate something harmful to it wouldn't? Once you start down that 'well how can that power possibly know how to do X?' path you start invalidating pretty much everything when you do that, ignoring the setting and that we're told that it does just like we're told other powers do X so they must know how to do X somehow. Your brain doesn't know how it sees either yet manages to do it just fine because it doesn't have to know how things work just to be able to do them.

Well, the power doesn't say regulate anywhere, if it did I would have no problems with it because I like that line of thought myself.
But the power doesn't say that, It says negates all of the toxin if the user of the power has knowledge beforehand of its deadly properties. It certainly doesn't say that it negates part of the poison that's harmful and leaves the rest. It says it negates the toxin, which in that case would be salt so all the salt would go, just like all the cyanide would go.

Its what I generally call player over reaching, for it to work on salt, salt has to be classed as a deadly toxin. Name once that you called salt a deadly toxin. Salt can be deadly . . . but so can everything else you ingest in excessive amounts.
So if you work on the fact that everything is deadly in excess, the power works on everything, which means your body is negated when you use the power.

Which do you think is more likely

a 4 isp power that works on classic poisons (i.e. not salt, just things that if you asked a normal person "Is this poison" they would say yes)

or a 4 isp power that works on and regulates any chemical in the body, and can negate any of those properties (drink enough potions of flight, it will kill you. Negate toxins will negate the potion of flight)

There is no fluff text that even makes me think its a regulatory power. It stops poisons that the user of the power knows about its deadly effects before hand. Salt in normal amounts is not deadly to changelings, it just makes them ill.

[Library Ogre]

I assumed so when I wrote the Changeling Metamorph.

[kiralon]

It almost sounds like they can almost do it themselves without the negate poisons power, (god my players could do some damage with one of those)
but the gullet of iron potion is the way to go, it specifically mentions general substances, whereas the negate poison specifically mentions deadly.

[Nightmask]

well if it can turn basilisk's eye into water or whatever negating means, what's a little acid. I was just looking in the main book as to what is classed as toxins, because there is a list.

and salt only makes changelings sick, it doesn't kill them. Salt makes humans sick too, just in higher doses, but changelings eat salt every day in their food so it can't be to bad for them.
Would negate toxins work on someone who has eaten to much chocolate and is feeling ill. Its seems the consensus is yes, because for it to be making you ill its a toxin. I don't think it is, its just overeating. Which means negate poison should get rid of a hangover as well.

I think I might just stick to the list that the game calls toxins, as this 4ppe power seems to know just how much of what is supposed to be in your body and can supposedly restore you to that amount if you don't have enough or have too much of a particular compound. So it can create or destroy any body made chemical, and know what the amounts are for those chemicals. Its just to much for 4ppe

The body knows in general what it has and works to regulate levels to keep things in a safe zone, so why do you think a psychic power guided by the mind with a focused purpose to eliminate something harmful to it wouldn't? Once you start down that 'well how can that power possibly know how to do X?' path you start invalidating pretty much everything when you do that, ignoring the setting and that we're told that it does just like we're told other powers do X so they must know how to do X somehow. Your brain doesn't know how it sees either yet manages to do it just fine because it doesn't have to know how things work just to be able to do them.

Well, the power doesn't say regulate anywhere, if it did I would have no problems with it because I like that line of thought myself.
But the power doesn't say that, It says negates all of the toxin if the user of the power has knowledge beforehand of its deadly properties. It certainly doesn't say that it negates part of the poison that's harmful and leaves the rest. It says it negates the toxin, which in that case would be salt so all the salt would go, just like all the cyanide would go.

Its what I generally call player over reaching, for it to work on salt, salt has to be classed as a deadly toxin. Name once that you called salt a deadly toxin. Salt can be deadly . . . but so can everything else you ingest in excessive amounts.
So if you work on the fact that everything is deadly in excess, the power works on everything, which means your body is negated when you use the power.

Which do you think is more likely

a 4 isp power that works on classic poisons (i.e. not salt, just things that if you asked a normal person "Is this poison" they would say yes)

or a 4 isp power that works on and regulates any chemical in the body, and can negate any of those properties (drink enough potions of flight, it will kill you. Negate toxins will negate the potion of flight)

There is no fluff text that even makes me think its a regulatory power. It stops poisons that the user of the power knows about its deadly effects before hand. Salt in normal amounts is not deadly to changelings, it just makes them ill.

And there are many poisons that in less lethal amounts just make you ill, so your point is what? It's still a poison, it still inflicts harm, it doesn't have to be lethal in the doses consumed to stop being a poison.

Frankly I'm not seeing why it's so important that Changelings not be able to use Impervious to Toxins/Poisons to shield against the effects of salt on them. Do you find it that important that they be unable to keep someone from feeding them salt so that they sicken and are revealed as a Changeling? So much so that you'll insist that salt really isn't harmful to them so it won't fit the criteria of a poison to be protected against?

[kiralon]

well sort of, if a good percentage of the changeling population is psionic and can do this, how is it been found out that its a weakness, because at a guess if this worked it would be less then half of them, and their major negatives are slow moving (spd: 2d6) and not very agile (pp: 3d6 so same as human), it should say less enduring (pe: 2d6) and salt and alcohol affect them badly, but if a high percentage of the population can mask this, how was it found out that they have weaknesses to them. Spending a non-naturally-renewable resource to get around them both is a better idea I think. Gullet of Iron potions are a good way to get around it, so are holistic medicine approaches, that way the characters are a lot more creative in getting around their racial negatives, rather then just saying they are pretty much immune to it because they play their racial class, because they do make powerful MM's, and all the people I came across who wanted to play changelings pretty much also wanted to play MM's and Ass's, and they are very, very good at it. I don't think its an unfair to the changeling race. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do it, I'm just saying I don't think negate poisons should do it, and I think the text say's that too. I don't think alcohol should really be negated either because it's not generally deadly in ordinary consumption amounts and it doesn't day alcohol is more deadly to them, it just gets them drunk quicker. So I just like to make it easier for the changeling to blend into social occasions because alcohol is generally always presented, and unless an out of the ordinary salty dish is prepared like salted preserved meats and nuts, and that sort of thing, the changeling wont have an issue with food given at said social occasions or food in taverns, unless there is a food shortage or something unusual.

[arouetta]

well sort of, if a good percentage of the changeling population is psionic and can do this, how is it been found out that its a weakness, because at a guess if this worked it would be less then half of them, and their major negatives are slow moving (spd: 2d6) and not very agile (pp: 3d6 so same as human), it should say less enduring (pe: 2d6) and salt and alcohol affect them badly, but if a high percentage of the population can mask this, how was it found out that they have weaknesses to them. Spending a non-naturally-renewable resource to get around them both is a better idea I think. Gullet of Iron potions are a good way to get around it, so are holistic medicine approaches, that way the characters are a lot more creative in getting around their racial negatives, rather then just saying they are pretty much immune to it because they play their racial class, because they do make powerful MM's, and all the people I came across who wanted to play changelings pretty much also wanted to play MM's and Ass's, and they are very, very good at it. I don't think its an unfair to the changeling race. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do it, I'm just saying I don't think negate poisons should do it, and I think the text say's that too. I don't think alcohol should really be negated either because it's not generally deadly in ordinary consumption amounts and it doesn't day alcohol is more deadly to them, it just gets them drunk quicker. So I just like to make it easier for the changeling to blend into social occasions because alcohol is generally always presented, and unless an out of the ordinary salty dish is prepared like salted preserved meats and nuts, and that sort of thing, the changeling wont have an issue with food given at said social occasions or food in taverns, unless there is a food shortage or something unusual.

On another thread, you indicated how biased you were against Mind Mages, is such a creative solution rubbing you wrong because of that bias? No one on this thread said the changeling in question had to be a Mind Mage, a major psionic could pull this off as well. This entire thread is a very creative solution to a problem that threatens the very life of a PC and I would award a player extra experience points for coming up with such a solution.

[kiralon]

Well I cant think of a changeling that wasnt a mm of some sort but no. Why give a weakness that has good opportunities for roleplaying and then in what would be the majority occ for them give something that negates it from level one. Not that that really matters I think it should only work on poisons. Not overeating or overdrinking. Salt makes humans sick too. Changelings are just more sensitive

[Nightmask]

Well I cant think of a changeling that wasnt a mm of some sort but no. Why give a weakness that has good opportunities for roleplaying and then in what would be the majority occ for them give something that negates it from level one. Not that that really matters I think it should only work on poisons. Not overeating or overdrinking. Salt makes humans sick too. Changelings are just more sensitive

Because for one they all aren't going to have the psi-power that lets them negate the risk, those that have it aren't always going to be in the position to realize that they need to use it, they may not have enough ISP left at the time to use it, and just because a means exists to let them negate the problem temporarily it doesn't take away any RP opportunities. As should be obvious in this thread it is driving RP.

Also alcohol is still a poison, people may drink the stuff because the beginning side-effects are considered for some reason enjoyable/desirable doesn't make it not a poison. Like any poison long-term exposure results in systemic damage and destruction of internal organs particularly the liver and even sort term exposure causes a variety of unpleasant physical systems and just a few tenths of a percent of it in the blood-stream causes major problems and only takes at most five-tenths to kill. People eat that one Japanese fish to enjoy the tingling its VERY toxic toxin causes, still a toxin.

[kiralon]

Well I cant think of a changeling that wasnt a mm of some sort but no. Why give a weakness that has good opportunities for roleplaying and then in what would be the majority occ for them give something that negates it from level one. Not that that really matters I think it should only work on poisons. Not overeating or overdrinking. Salt makes humans sick too. Changelings are just more sensitive

Because for one they all aren't going to have the psi-power that lets them negate the risk, those that have it aren't always going to be in the position to realize that they need to use it, they may not have enough ISP left at the time to use it, and just because a means exists to let them negate the problem temporarily it doesn't take away any RP opportunities. As should be obvious in this thread it is driving RP.

Also alcohol is still a poison, people may drink the stuff because the beginning side-effects are considered for some reason enjoyable/desirable doesn't make it not a poison. Like any poison long-term exposure results in systemic damage and destruction of internal organs particularly the liver and even sort term exposure causes a variety of unpleasant physical systems and just a few tenths of a percent of it in the blood-stream causes major problems and only takes at most five-tenths to kill. People eat that one Japanese fish to enjoy the tingling its VERY toxic toxin causes, still a toxin.

Im guessing you haven't DM'd any changelings, all the ones I dm'd took it just for the effect on alcohol/being immune to the poisons that they are finding/preparing when they assassinate people.
But yes Toxicity is all about amount, but If you think poison when I mention the substance its a poison, if you think something that's in my food no I don't think its a poison, otherwise the power has far reaching and likely unintended effects. If changelings were dying whenever they ate salt (pretty much anything that's food) I would think its a poison, so they can eat a certain amount with no ill effect.

Also the substance has to be the primary damaging device, ie eat salt, take damage, rather then eat salt, get irritated stomach, start spewing.
Eat puffer fish, die from toxin binding to nerves and preventing your nervous system from working(negate works)
rather then eat puffer fish, get tiny amount of toxin and die from allergic reaction to toxin. (negate doesn't work)
so it should also be foreign to the body.

The way I play it works, the players don't complain (about that anyway) and they have some hard facts to work around, and watching them trying to hide their salt sensitivity from the other players is great fun, and even more fun watching them avoid changeling type tests.

and if a changeling adds the summon inner strength power to his repertoire he can pass the endurance tests as well as he doesn't tire while its active.

[arouetta]

Well I cant think of a changeling that wasnt a mm of some sort but no. Why give a weakness that has good opportunities for roleplaying and then in what would be the majority occ for them give something that negates it from level one. Not that that really matters I think it should only work on poisons. Not overeating or overdrinking. Salt makes humans sick too. Changelings are just more sensitive

Because for one they all aren't going to have the psi-power that lets them negate the risk, those that have it aren't always going to be in the position to realize that they need to use it, they may not have enough ISP left at the time to use it, and just because a means exists to let them negate the problem temporarily it doesn't take away any RP opportunities. As should be obvious in this thread it is driving RP.

Also alcohol is still a poison, people may drink the stuff because the beginning side-effects are considered for some reason enjoyable/desirable doesn't make it not a poison. Like any poison long-term exposure results in systemic damage and destruction of internal organs particularly the liver and even sort term exposure causes a variety of unpleasant physical systems and just a few tenths of a percent of it in the blood-stream causes major problems and only takes at most five-tenths to kill. People eat that one Japanese fish to enjoy the tingling its VERY toxic toxin causes, still a toxin.

Im guessing you haven't DM'd any changelings, all the ones I dm'd took it just for the effect on alcohol/being immune to the poisons that they are finding/preparing when they assassinate people.

I have GM'ed a changeling so I do have relevant game experience. Impervious to Poison/Toxin is not game unbalancing. It's a little 4 ISP psionic that could easily drop the levels of toxins down from toxic to non-toxic, even if a certain amount stays in the system for living (and it's debatable if changelings need sodium chloride or if another metallic salt is needed instead). For a race that can barely handle tavern food (asked and answered on another thread) and can't handle it three times a day, this is a psionic that is useful at hiding what they are. Compared to a first level wizard with Carpet of Adhesion and Cloud of Slumber, this psionic power barely pings on the "unbalancing" chart.

[kiralon]

How would changelings have been found out to be susceptible to alcohol and salt if most of their race can make themselves immune to salt and alcohol, and make it so they don't tire at will, and running solves the slowness issue.

but mostly its a balancing thing, why say here's the negatives to a race, but the class that most of them play can make themselves immune to the negative effects for it not to be an issue from level one. A lot of the changes I have made to the game are balancing issues, and being able to shape shift is a powerful bonus, being susceptible to salt is probably a little underpowered to balance it but I go with it. They also get -1d6 PE and -1d6 speed but +1d6+6 ME and +1d6 MA which balances out mostly because they have 1d6 less hp and can go to a lesser number of negative hp.

[Nightmask]

How would changelings have been found out to be susceptible to alcohol and salt if most of their race can make themselves immune to salt and alcohol, and make it so they don't tire at will, and running solves the slowness issue.

Because as already been pointed out they aren't always immune, they can't keep themselves always immune and they can't always know when to make themselves immune. Some also likely never knew they even had the vulnerability (grew up orphans for example) so had no idea that they needed protection from those things resulting in the truth getting out.

but mostly its a balancing thing, why say here's the negatives to a race, but the class that most of them play can make themselves immune to the negative effects for it not to be an issue from level one. A lot of the changes I have made to the game are balancing issues, and being able to shape shift is a powerful bonus, being susceptible to salt is probably a little underpowered to balance it but I go with it. They also get -1d6 PE and -1d6 speed but +1d6+6 ME and +1d6 MA which balances out mostly because they have 1d6 less hp and can go to a lesser number of negative hp.

That's not a balancing thing that's an 'I don't want them to have any means to protect themselves from their vulnerabilities, unlike everyone else who can use the same psi-power to protect them from all their poison vulnerabilities because I want to be able to out them anytime I feel like it' thing. You have removed balance if anything, skewing things in favor of non-Changeling characters since you've no problems with humans and elves and such being able to TEMPORARILY protect themselves from all things poisonous and toxic to them but specifically exclude Changeling characters from having the same benefit from the same power.

[kiralon]

They cant keep it up no, but none of the changeling food tests I saw went for an hour and never was more then eat this chunk of salt flavoured with a bit of ham, and wash it down with a bit of ethanol.
Do you think salt is a deadly poison because you can eat enough of it to make you die. Is salt in your poisonous substances cupboard so children can't get to it. If its not then I doubt you think salt is deadly as well. Remember. . . Salt Does Not Kill Changelings it just makes them ill.
I'm not excluding changelings, humans don't get the protection from salt either. salt is not a deadly poison. The power says user has to know deadly properties beforehand and I don't accept over-eating as poison. I'm just arguing against it because of balance reasons as well.

Mostly because my logic then says
The power detects it as a deadly poison and rids you entire body of it, and if water and salt are deadly because you can eat/drink enough to die, then goodbye body
or
The power only removes enough so it isn't deadly anymore, you aren't going to die but as some poison is still left things like basilisks eye would still keep you paralysed, and you would likely be violently ill from leftover cyanide/arsenic etc.
and the text doesn't really point to the second option for me, it negates all poisons in your body with one use, you don't get to choose to keep some poisons in your body, they are all gone.

[Nightmask]

They cant keep it up no, but none of the changeling food tests I saw went for an hour and never was more then eat this chunk of salt flavoured with a bit of ham, and wash it down with a bit of ethanol.
Do you think salt is a deadly poison because you can eat enough of it to make you die. Is salt in your poisonous substances cupboard so children can't get to it. If its not then I doubt you think salt is deadly as well. Remember. . . Salt Does Not Kill Changelings it just makes them ill.
I'm not excluding changelings, humans don't get the protection from salt either. salt is not a deadly poison. The power says user has to know deadly properties beforehand and I don't accept over-eating as poison. I'm just arguing against it because of balance reasons as well.

Mostly because my logic then says
The power detects it as a deadly poison and rids you entire body of it, and if water and salt are deadly because you can eat/drink enough to die, then goodbye body
or
The power only removes enough so it isn't deadly anymore, you aren't going to die but as some poison is still left things like basilisks eye would still keep you paralysed, and you would likely be violently ill from leftover cyanide/arsenic etc.
and the text doesn't really point to the second option for me, it negates all poisons in your body with one use, you don't get to choose to keep some poisons in your body, they are all gone.

You're overthinking it and making use of a fallacy, it doesn't have to be either of those options (and tossing in water to try and link things to an absurdity to try and help your case because it's so weak). The power states it negates things either to reduce the effect if you realize too late you're poisoned or activated ahead of time negates things so that it has no negative impact at all, it doesn't state that it does 'just enough' so you don't die but are still otherwise still poisoned since that defeats the point of the power and its stated purpose and intent. So it must negate the poisonous substance sufficiently to remove all harmful levels which means it could leave nothing at all behind or what's left below the body's intentions to care. Either way it's not going to negate any traces that may be also associated with existing biological processes (of which we don't know that table salt IS in fact necessary for them biologically).

Plus as I already pointed out it's entirely possible for something to be internal to a body but have it react to external applications of that same substance like any other poison because what's involved in ongoing biological processes isn't the same thing as something being introduced from outside. Something also doesn't have to be lethal in order to be a poison (as evidenced by the 'non-lethal poisons' save vs the 'lethal poisons' save), and Impervious to Toxins/Poisons doesn't say 'only works against lethal poisons', it works against them all whether they simply sicken you, paralyze you, render you unconscious, or kill you. Salt sickens Changelings making it a poison to them so Impervious to Toxins/Poisons protects them against the harmful influences of it while active, simple as that.

[kiralon]

Are you reading negate toxins for psionics, or the negate poisons for spell magic as they are different

But I would like to know why is death by water absurd and death by salt not.
both is death by too much of a substance.
Do you not believe people have died from water overdose? Water is toxic in high doses because it dilutes the blood and there isn't enough nutrients/electrolytes/oxygen, just like watering down a good bourbon, water it down enough and it aint bourbon.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... d-10m.html

hey and guess what over eating of salt does, it causes the opposite effect and causes the brain to lose too much water, your brain can then shrink which can cause bleeding, seizures, coma and death, so its not actually the salt killing you, its the water leaving the brain and going into the bloodstream to try and make the salt concentrations the same.

On the internal drug side of things the power says specifically that the poison has to be ingested or introduced to the blood stream, introduced means it wasn't there before. So that cuts out things that are in the body already because it then negates it, which means it gets it all, which would kill if it worked on anything that is toxic in high levels.

If it was just harmful levels it would still leave trace amounts of poison behind, which the power doesn't do, and the wording defeating the spirit of the power is a little bit too common for my liking, but if you don't follow the wording you end up with big ...ahem ... discussions as people have different opinions. The fact we are having this discussion should show that, So saying it negates just the harmful levels word have to be classed as wrong for the wording.
But I can see you are going for sort of the spirit of the power, and not the actual power. Unfortunately to be correct to the rules (which I have changed many of because of stupid wording like this) you follow what it says, not what you wish the power was, or you are just making house rules, I have no problems with house rules, I use tons myself but its still a house rule.
and to me the spirit of the power is what people class as poison, overeating of salt is known as salt poisoning, but the thing is, drinking too much water is also known as water poisoning, and if you could go to your cupboard and pull out a chocolate bar that said, don't eat this as its poisonous, id believe that the spirit of negate poisons would work on it but it doesn't. Eating too much chocolate makes you sick, just like salt does a changeling (amounts just differ). Eating way to much chocolate can kill you, just like way too much salt can kill a changeling(or human). Do you class chocolate as a poison, and I think I covered water.

And commenting that changelings might not need salt could be true, but they eat the same as humans, crap the same way as humans, breathe like humans do, id guess that your changelings have red blood like humans do otherwise they would be too easily picked out, speaking logically its a lot more likely that they are close to humans biochemically speaking and need salt, rather then saying they are changelings they don't need salt just because.

Impervious to Toxins/Poisons doesn't say 'only works against lethal poisons'

Well my second ed book says
The character can negate the full effects of poisons and toxic chemicals which he has ingested (eaten or drank) or introduced into the blood stream, as long as he/she has advance knowledge of its deadly properties
To me deadly means it will kill you, so lethal only

and after this I have realised how useless the power is and how wrong I have been playing it, I have been saying Oh your poisoned, you negate poison, lets go. But its
Hey I just got shot by a dart, lets look at it (makes recognise poison roll, lets just say he succeeds) I know what this poison is, I will negate and get half effects (well I add an onset time depending on dosage from 1d4 rounds to 1d6x10 minutes, bigger the dose, the quicker the effect) so people would be able to get the negate of in time to negate if they make a recognise poison roll. If you don't know specifically what the poison is, you can't negate it. So I should have been making them make recognise poison rolls before hand anyway.

[VR Dragon]

After reading all of this I think I can offer some advice. In the PFRPG book with all the crystal psionic stuff there is also details about changlings.

The book talks about psionic changlings using the powers of resist fatigue to mask their low stamina issues and the power of resist toxin/poison to negate the effects of booze and salt.

[Hotrod]

A few physical skills can also go a long way towards making up for the natural shortcomings of the changeling, too. Running in particular pretty much wipes out the speed disadvantage, and anything that adds P.E. is a big help, too (running does this as well).

[kiralon]

After reading all of this I think I can offer some advice. In the PFRPG book with all the crystal psionic stuff there is also details about changlings.

The book talks about psionic changlings using the powers of resist fatigue to mask their low stamina issues and the power of resist toxin/poison to negate the effects of booze and salt.

It talks about first eds psionic negate toxin which is a different kettle of fish, it has different wording, costs 3x the isp (and first ed Mind mages get a lot less isp) and takes an hour of meditation to do and you can't get it until level 5, and having to meditate for an hour to do it makes it mostly useless for covertly eating salt at functions/tests. I'm not against them being able to protect themselves, as I have mentioned I allow them to get potions, or use holistic medicine to make nausea suppressants. I just don't like the idea of them to be able to protect themselves from their weaknesses at level 1. That's part of my gripe against second ed MM's. They mostly get all their high level powers at level 1, I prefer players to get their awesome cosmic power at about level 6+. Then they don't mind the itty bitty living spaces.

[arouetta]

After reading all of this I think I can offer some advice. In the PFRPG book with all the crystal psionic stuff there is also details about changlings.

The book talks about psionic changlings using the powers of resist fatigue to mask their low stamina issues and the power of resist toxin/poison to negate the effects of booze and salt.

It talks about first eds psionic negate toxin which is a different kettle of fish, it has different wording, costs 3x the isp (and first ed Mind mages get a lot less isp) and takes an hour of meditation to do and you can't get it until level 5, and having to meditate for an hour to do it makes it mostly useless for covertly eating salt at functions/tests. I'm not against them being able to protect themselves, as I have mentioned I allow them to get potions, or use holistic medicine to make nausea suppressants. I just don't like the idea of them to be able to protect themselves from their weaknesses at level 1. That's part of my gripe against second ed MM's. They mostly get all their high level powers at level 1, I prefer players to get their awesome cosmic power at about level 6+. Then they don't mind the itty bitty living spaces.

That you don't like it does not make it an invalid combination. I don't like mayonnaise. I can't ban it from the house based solely on my dislike because it is a valid component for sandwiches for the people I live with. Mind mages are written to be awesome. To be fair, either accept them as written and find canon ways to be creative against them, or house rule them into nothingness and house rule every other OCC into being downgraded just as much. To slam one OCC and not slam them all, to void out the abilities of one OCC and not void them all speaks of biased, and therefore bad, GMing.

[kiralon]

The first ed one would do it, it doesn't mention having to know about the deadly side effects before hand like the second ed one does, or do you think that part of the text doesn't count as well.
and if salt is deadly, water definitely is too because both bad effects work from water being or not being where its supposed to, people have died from both. You are saying what happens to one occ should happen to the other, so why not what happens to one substance happens to the other.
Does Recognise Poison detect salt, water and every other naturally made drug in the body because the way you are treating salt the skill would have to before you could negate the overdoses of them. Too much histamine from allergic reaction, you have to know that to be able to negate it.
You have to know the deadly effects before hand to be able to negate it. Salt poisoning would more be a medical check as they need to be rehydrated.

You are saying that salt is toxic from having too much (remember it DOES NOT KILL CHANGELINGS SO NOT DEADLY unless overconsumed)
EVERYTHING is toxic in too large amounts, so recognise poisons has to recognise all substance - who needs chemistry or biology
Even %100 oxygen is toxic and can kill you in the right conditions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity
does negate toxins work on that

Do you agree that everything in too large amounts is toxic

if yes Then why does salt get picked out of that list and not everything else as well.
if no please show me something to back it up. Saying that I am biased may be true, but isn't really relevant for this situation. I have been giving reasons why I think this but the response I'm getting is saying, you're biased so it mustn't be true. Im not saying its invalid because im biased, im saying salts invalid because allowing salt, a non deadly substance in normally consumed amounts isn't deadly (not even to changelings, they only get sick) unlike hemlock or cyanide in its normal consumption amounts, opens the door to every single other substance because salt isn't a deadly poison unless over eaten, so everything else that's is deadly when overeating should be recognised as well.

Do you agree that you have to know the deadly effects before hand
if so and you think salt is deadly, what is deadly about salt that isn't deadly about all other substances. The only thing I can find deadly about salt is over consumption, you can't die from being allergic to it.

Then does salt show up when you do recognise poison, the power thinks you need recognise poison to find out about the deadly toxin before hand as it gives you the skill
If salt does show up with recognise poison then why. If its because it kills you with overconsumption, then why don't all the other substances that kill you with overconsumption(oxygen, histamines, salt, lava, sugar, water, alcohol, etc) be recognised, and If they are recognised by recognise poison how long does it take to learn a skill that lets you know about all compounds (this is because everything is deadly if enough is taken).

So if you accept them as written where does the having to know about the deadly effects come in for you, is it overeating of salt, because normal consumption does not kill (which means not deadly to me) changelings. And over consumption can't count because then it is way too broad a spectrum of things it effects (as in everything) and then will negate everything in your body, which would be fatal. I don't see anywhere that It says it will only do a partial job either.

You say I might be over analysing things, I have to as I dm an engineer, a nurse, a lab assistant, a builder, 2 students and a navy guy as my regulars, and aren't shy about letting me know when im wrong about my medical, building, chemical and general engineering/physics or fighting ideas.

Technically this power shouldn't work on paralysis, sleep, anaesthetic or other non deadly substances at normal doses, because you have to know the deadly effects of the poison before hand, and if you don't know the deadly effects you cant do it, so not having deadly effects means you don't know them.
If a normal dose of something can kill you its deadly.
If it takes an abnormal dose to be deadly I don't think its in the spirit of the power to negate.

[eliakon]

So in essence there is a disagreement on what is 'poison'. One side argues it is any substance that induces negative consequences via biologic processes. The other side feels that only substances that have the potential to directly cause death or grave injury through biologic processes.
One problem here is its looking like both sides are arguing that the ludicrous extension of the others position is untenable.

[kiralon]

very true, I think a poison is a poison in normal doses, and if it takes an abnormal amount of something to kill it not a poison because then everything is a poison because an abnormal amount of anything will kill you. I'm just saying that the psionic negate toxins mentions having to know the deadly properties of the substance before you can use it, would you in the normal course of a day think salt is deadly, because it has to be taken to abnormal lengths to kill.
I must say if salt was in the poison/drugs section of the book rather then the food section I would class it as poison, and if it said that it killed changelings rather then make them sick I would class it as deadly.

[arouetta]

very true, I think a poison is a poison in normal doses, and if it takes an abnormal amount of something to kill it not a poison because then everything is a poison because an abnormal amount of anything will kill you. I'm just saying that the psionic negate toxins mentions having to know the deadly properties of the substance before you can use it, would you in the normal course of a day think salt is deadly, because it has to be taken to abnormal lengths to kill.
I must say if salt was in the poison/drugs section of the book rather then the food section I would class it as poison, and if it said that it killed changelings rather then make them sick I would class it as deadly.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=70&tid=19
If you've eaten lima beans or almonds, or ever drank water, you've got cyanide floating around your bloodstream. Does the fact that it doesn't harm at lower levels, is used in the making of antibiotics, and takes an abnormal amount to harm and/or kill mean that it doesn't qualify as a toxin to be affected by Impervious to Poison/Toxin?