Solid Oxide Batteries, fuel cells?

[azazel1024]

Now, I'll get the first part out of the way, come on editing!#(*#$&

I've counted at least a dozen places where they are referred to as solid oxide batteries and then later in the book they are mostly, but not always, referred to as solid oxide fuel cells. A little consistency would be nice. I assume they were meant to be solid oxide fuel cells, especially since that is how they are referred to in the description of the new technology.

My only real gripe is that they seem to last for an implausibly long time. I'll grant super advances in technology, but powering a giant robot for 4 weeks of constant use plus energy weapon combat mixed in there? That just seems wayyyy too much. I'd be a little happier if it was maybe a week of constant use, or possibly even 72 hours of constant use including combat or 1-2 weeks with some periods of downtime and no/very light combat.

Batteries half the time or less.

That said, I am not overly bent out of shape over it. I think it is a nice spice to add to the game and the mechanic overall works decently.

I am also impressed and suprised by the general price of them and the description of vehicle batteries. The fact that either Matthew or Kevin took the time/effort to make them vaguely realistic in that it just takes someone with some modest skills to hook one up to act as a "generator" is nice. Also the 200cr recharge fee and time sounds pretty realistic too.

Now if they'd just carried that over to e-clips too, from the begining....

[dragonfett]

Where are they mentioned?

[sirkermittsg]

Where are they mentioned?

Solid Oxide Batteries / Fuel Cells (presumably the same thing) appear in the new Northern Gun 1 book. they are an alternative for the nuclear engines that most robots and many vehicles have. their advantage is that if one's unit is destroyed, it does not cause an environmental disaster.

If you are familure with Robotech, you can think of these new cells as being of similar nature to a protoculture cell. they have fuel inside of them and it can run the bot or vehicle for approximately one month.

[flatline]

I've never heard of a solid oxide battery, but solid oxide fuel cells are real things. I think that they use hydrocarbons like natural gas as fuel and spit out CO2 and water as exhaust, but I guess pure hydrogen would probably work, too.

If robots are using these for power sources, they must consume a prodigious amount of fuel to meet the high energy requirements of MD weaponry. Although I suppose the authors blissfully ignore this.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

I've never heard of a solid oxide battery, but solid oxide fuel cells are real things. I think that they use hydrocarbons like natural gas as fuel and spit out CO2 and water as exhaust, but I guess pure hydrogen would probably work, too.

If robots are using these for power sources, they must consume a prodigious amount of fuel to meet the high energy requirements of MD weaponry. Although I suppose the authors blissfully ignore this.

--flatline

Or more likely they assume the tech is advanced beyond current levels by that time.

[azazel1024]

Sorry, I meant to say NG1 in the title.

Yes, authors blithly disregard this. It is easy enough to assume massive increases in efficiency beyond what we think is theoretically possible even.

That said, they are not tiny/light things in the book. PA sized ones are, IIRC, 42lbs and robot vehicle sized ones are ~220lbs for each one.

Real SOFC utilize either hydrogen straight, or hydrocarbons and run at extremely high temperatures. They are very efficient, around 60% or so, which is about double the combustion efficiency of most gasoline engines and natural gas engines. Though even if you were assuming 100% efficiency and half the weight of the battery was a sealed fuel tank for it, you couldn't get a month of constant run time on a giant robot, especially not with energy weaponry thrown in to the mix.

Maybe a few days with energy weaponry thrown in to the mix.

That said, meh. As far as "writer fiat" is concerned, I feel like it is relatively mild compared to a lot is done in the books. It mostly annoys me that the book jumps between refering to them as solid oxide batteries and fuel cells so many times. I also don't mind that the book mentions they are often refered to as solid OX instead of the SOFC vernacular that is used today (by people who know what they are, which isn't a whole ton).

If you want to get in to the math, it actually isn't abhorantly ridiculous depending on what you consider "running 4 weeks constantly" to mean. 50kg of liquid hydrogen works out to ~7GJ of energy, or about 2.9kw of output for 4 weeks constant. About 4 horsepower.

So, yes, very weak. However, if those 4 weeks are composed of maybe 85% "standing around doing nothing but running lights and sensors" and maybe a bit of turning about a little with some walking around and a few minutes of actual combat, that isn't nearly as ridiculous.

Though, that isn't really incorporated in the description. If it was 4 weeks of typical use, but heavy combat or maximum "exertion" running/flying/etc will quickly use up the fuel cells in 24 hours would molify me a bit more, but whatever.

As I mention, in terms of "badly broken compared to reality", the solid oxide fuel cells actually aren't that bad. The description of batteries isn't too bad either and relative to SOFC, they are actually pretty close.

If you compare energy density of theoretical best lithium air batteries to hydrogen used in a fuel cell, it is roughly 8x better power density for the fuel cell (not accounting for the weight of the fuel cell itself). In the battery description is makes mention that constant use will see only rouhgly 72hrs of power on batteries versus 4 weeks on the solid oxide fuel cells, which is roughly an 8-to-1 ratio.

So, kuddos.

The recharging time and costs are also pretty good.

And when it comes down to it, how much fun is it really if you giant robot vehicle can only go running down the lane for an hour before it runs out of juice in its fuel cells.

[flatline]

I've never heard of a solid oxide battery, but solid oxide fuel cells are real things. I think that they use hydrocarbons like natural gas as fuel and spit out CO2 and water as exhaust, but I guess pure hydrogen would probably work, too.

If robots are using these for power sources, they must consume a prodigious amount of fuel to meet the high energy requirements of MD weaponry. Although I suppose the authors blissfully ignore this.

--flatline

Or more likely they assume the tech is advanced beyond current levels by that time.

Even if Rifts tech is 100% efficient, we're already in the ballpark of 50% efficient, so at best, the Rifts tech will use half the fuel that our modern tech would require to produce the same amount of energy.

Improving efficiency has already hit diminishing returns. More energy dense fuels are really the only way to scale anymore if we're constrained by size and/or weight.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

I've never heard of a solid oxide battery, but solid oxide fuel cells are real things. I think that they use hydrocarbons like natural gas as fuel and spit out CO2 and water as exhaust, but I guess pure hydrogen would probably work, too.

If robots are using these for power sources, they mustu consume a prodigious amount of fuel to meet the high energy requirements of MD weaponry. Although I suppose the authors blissfully ignore this.

--flatline

Or more likely they assume the tech is advanced beyond current levels by that time.

Even if Rifts tech is 100% efficient, we're already in the ballpark of 50% efficient, so at best, the Rifts tech will use half the fuel that our modern tech would require to produce the same amount of energy.

Improving efficiency has already hit diminishing returns. More energy dense fuels are really the only way to scale anymore if we're constrained by size and/or weight.

--flatline

Or as the books prove time and again...
The laws of Rifts Earth are not the laws of our Earth.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My reaction comes up with two ideas about the why starting out with SOB and then using SOFC.
1) the writer used a word in the term that "Everybody" (SOB) knows to get their mind working in the direction he wanted, and then used the correct term (SOFC) to be accurate after that.
2) the writer used the term that came to mind from a half remembered idea to start off with the then later he went back to see what W.T.F. what was it he was originally thinking about earlier and used the correct term after that. And didn't go back and correct the originaly written term.
--------------
Power level wise.....
I think Flat line and DM have the right ideas about this.

[Deadboy Dakka]

After some research, i.e. where google took me, I will agree that it is a bit much. But, looking at it from a gaming perspective, I see no problem here. Yeah, the output is up there, but it offers a whole new power source, opens up new R.P.ing opportunities and it allows us new worries in combat (Don't hit the Solid Ox..DON'T HIT THE SOLID OX!!!! GAH!!!) And to quote Mack "It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense."

Over all, it's a new awesome thing in a book, full of awesomeness. Though I am still scratching my head at the solar stuff...

[azazel1024]

Yeah, but the solar stuff is a little better than it was in Phase world. I mean, you could charge up a rifle in a matter of a few minutes in some bright sun light. At least here it takes a solid 24hrs of full bright sun to charge the bot for 48hrs of operation or 1hr per shot for the main gun.

It is still not remotely realistic, but it is at least vaguely closer.

The solar collectors don't look too big, but I'd at least believe they might cover 5-8m^2 total. That could be as much as 5-8kw of power output supposing they were 100% efficient.

For the main gun, an hour at 5kw is 18MJ of energy, which actually is pretty ball park for how much energy the weapon is likely to discharge for a firing...so actually, pretty realistic there.

As for operation, well, not really. That would put the bot only using 2.5-4kw of power during operation, or 3-5 horsepower. I don't care how optimized you make something, something that big and huge is probably using more like 400-2,000hp (IE comparable to a tank, or more) to go running around. But, hey, you can't win 'em all.

Its better than the colonial HI rifle in Phase world.

[jaymz]

I like this concept for the "Prerifts and pre ce" vehicles I am statting up. Switching from liquid fuels etc.

[kaid]

Now, I'll get the first part out of the way, come on editing!#(*#$&

I've counted at least a dozen places where they are referred to as solid oxide batteries and then later in the book they are mostly, but not always, referred to as solid oxide fuel cells. A little consistency would be nice. I assume they were meant to be solid oxide fuel cells, especially since that is how they are referred to in the description of the new technology.

My only real gripe is that they seem to last for an implausibly long time. I'll grant super advances in technology, but powering a giant robot for 4 weeks of constant use plus energy weapon combat mixed in there? That just seems wayyyy too much. I'd be a little happier if it was maybe a week of constant use, or possibly even 72 hours of constant use including combat or 1-2 weeks with some periods of downtime and no/very light combat.

Batteries half the time or less.

That said, I am not overly bent out of shape over it. I think it is a nice spice to add to the game and the mechanic overall works decently.

I am also impressed and suprised by the general price of them and the description of vehicle batteries. The fact that either Matthew or Kevin took the time/effort to make them vaguely realistic in that it just takes someone with some modest skills to hook one up to act as a "generator" is nice. Also the 200cr recharge fee and time sounds pretty realistic too.

Now if they'd just carried that over to e-clips too, from the begining....

One thing to note the solid ox stuff in NG1 is limited on how much energy it can produce which limits some Mechs and weapon layouts available. Like the big foot is stated as to heavy an energy platform to work with it. The mech thats a combo of solar/solid ox seems pretty reasonable for frontier people need to recharge put the solar panels up and kick in the solid oxide engine to run stuff while the solar charges it switching a couple days on here and there could give you probably 6-8 months of near solid use before needing to get another power cell which is pretty reasonable. Seems like the solid oxide stuff can be made from just about any hydrocarbon so pretty reasonable choice wise for restocking in the field. One thing I am curious about is can an operator recharge one if they have the fuel and what would be required refinement wise. Is the big cost for the cell itself or the cell plus fuel for big ones dropping 100k or so every month or two seems like it would pretty quickly eat into the savings of not going nuke but I guess it still saves up front costs and in a heavy conflict zone better to risk loosing a cheaper solid ox one that does not leave radiation I suppose.

[azazel1024]

For Solid Oxide fuel cells, the answer is, dunno on Operator servicable.

It feels like the intent in the book is, NO, it can only be serviced by Northern Gun.

Easy enough to explain in the context of the game and real life. It may not simply be that the fuel is exhausted in the SOFC, it could be that the catalysts or anode/cathodes wear out over the operating life of the cells and that one or more of those need to be replaced/reconditioned on top of refueling the thing. That very well could be something only NG can do (short of them making the parts available, which they don't seem to want to do).

So, I'd say probably not user servicable in anyway, other than pulling a cell and placing a new one in the vehicle/PA and returning the cell to NG for reconditioning.

[kaid]

Probably likely or you would need some very specific equipment/workshop to refurbish the cells. Other than maybe the solar one for mechs I don't think I would go solid ox for an adventurer but for mercs with defensive contracts or working out of a main town/hub the battery power/solid oxide powered options seems like a really nice option to save some cash. Also really nice on smaller vehicles and hover cycles. I think it was rated at 9 weeks of solid use for smaller vehicles and that is some incredibly good endurance for courier run hover cycles and the like without dropping big bucks on a nuke plant. And the cells are not super huge so very possible you could even pack a spare.

Something like that beats the pants off of gas or the old style electric options without adding a million to the price of an otherwise inexpensive vehicle.