converted Zentraedi Vessels in the Pioneer Mission

[sirkermittsg]

The robotech Factory was tooled up for Zentraedi Vessels to begin with. To me, it would make sense if the repaired as many of bretai's vessels as they could for Earth defense duty and use as a part of the Pioneer mission. They had a huge amount of raw material to salvage both in space and down on earth.... I mean seriously they have 5,000,000 ships involved in the final battle as well as Dolza's space station. I realize that most of those ships were destroyed but that is still an enormus amount of salvage and even if only .1% of Bretai's fleet survived, we are still talking about 1000 vessels loaded with thousands of soldiers each.... several million soliers for sure.

Most if not all of thouse zentraedi would have had to have been micronized because frankly there was not enough food to sustain them long term.

So: what sort of breakdown in numbers of ships and types do you think there was in addition to Bretai's flag ship?

What would the various vessels have held in terms of mecha now?

[Seto Kaiba]

So: what sort of breakdown in numbers of ships and types do you think there was in addition to Bretai's flag ship?

What would the various vessels have held in terms of mecha now?

Zero ships, and probably zero mecha... at least, if we were to base our guesses upon official materials.

Supposedly, the Zentradi fleet was all but wiped out, with only a few intact ships ever seen in the years following. It would appear, based on what's been said both in the RTSC art book and RT RPG (2e) that any Zentradi warships that survived the final fleet engagement were sent to the breakers and summarily dismantled for salvage parts in order to build the ships that the Expeditionary Force would later use.

[jedi078]

I would say no more then 50 ships were in any shape to operate after the Zent Rain of Death.

Despite what the RPG books state it would be stupid (it lacks complete common sense) to dismantle the Zent ships. I see the UEDF operating mecha units off of of these ships until a suitable number of human built ships (or after a bunch of Border Fleet vessels were capture with the Factory Satellite in 2013) could be built. Even after ward the Zent ships would be perfect for the Pioneer mission.

The Tou Redir is perfect as a escort carrier as it can carry about 50 fighters and has a bank of heavy anti-ship missiles. You could even refit the vessels to serve a myriad of roles. Personally I see this class being the most used by the UEEF due to its size

The Thuverl Salan could transport an entire division of UEEF mecha and troops. The big guns and heavy heavy anti-ship missiles could be used to bombard surface targets. Personally I'm not fond of this idea as you shouldn't put an entire division on one ship. Its better to spread it out across several ships so hat if you lose a ship you don't lose so many troops.

The Quiltra Queleual and Nupetiet Vergnitzs could both be used as mobile space stations or resupply stations.

[sirkermittsg]

Even with only 50 ships, I can't see them being broken. The earth had zero functional ships outside of these and they were looking forward to many years before there would be a human fleet to replace these ships. Even then, they still had use because they were larger then nearly all human ships constructed. I can see them as being a sort of reserve fleet in later years.

What sort of compliments of mecha and troops do you think they had during the reconstruction years?

[Colonel Wolfe]

Even with only 50 ships, I can't see them being broken. The earth had zero functional ships outside of these and they were looking forward to many years before there would be a human fleet to replace these ships. Even then, they still had use because they were larger then nearly all human ships constructed. I can see them as being a sort of reserve fleet in later years.

Even before the Macross era was over, the UEF was using the Ships shown in the Southern Cross era, The Master's encounter and Destroy one 20 LY out from years out from earth. The Tokugawa design entered into service before the destruction of the SDF-1.
in fact they completed the SDF-2 in less than 2 years and may have had a fleet ready to leave earth in episode 36 along with the SDF-2.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Supposedly, the Zentradi fleet was all but wiped out, with only a few intact ships ever seen in the years following. It would appear, based on what's been said both in the RTSC art book and RT RPG (2e) that any Zentradi warships that survived the final fleet engagement were sent to the breakers and summarily dismantled for salvage parts in order to build the ships that the Expeditionary Force would later use.

Actually, no. They were still using Zentraedi ships as of 2017, well after the buildup for the REF mission. Furthermore, the SDF-03 was wrapped in the exoskeleton of a Zentraedi Battlecuiser. They were already using the Tokugawa and Battle-class BEFORE the loss of the SDF-01 and SDF-02 in late 2013.

[ShadowLogan]

So: what sort of breakdown in numbers of ships and types do you think there was in addition to Bretai's flag ship?

What would the various vessels have held in terms of mecha now?

Simple answer is we don't know for sure and the time frame is also important one is looking at. Mecha would be in the thousands (maybe even 10s of, but not much more than that) as there likely is a large stockpile available. Functional Ships would be another matter.

The 2E RPG points to the UEEF utilizing Zentraedi mecha for their Zentraedi contingent (Bioroid Interceptor fluff, TSC RPG) initially and as attrition racked up those pilots transferred to Alpha and Beta Veritechs (squeezing in, the use of the Beta pushes it into the 2030s) before Tirol was occupied and the Bioroid program initiated.

As RSCF illustrates, in the Comics, Breetai had a floatila of ships (7 are shown firing, not counting the flagship, looks like Destroyer or Landing Ship or Gunship type).

While the current continuity makes out various designs to all be human built ships, it is possible that the UEEF "refitt" existing Zentraedi ships/mecha/facilities to not resemble their oldself (look at the RFS in TSC/PttSC). It is possible to see craft in the Zentaedi fleet during various episodes in head-on shots that resemble the N-S missiles in a head-on shot, making the old colony ship a retro-fitted Zentraedi design. If it wasn't for the actual size, the Tok.-class could be another example being a retro-fitted Zent. Destroyers. Given their size, the only other ships that could be re-manufactured into human ships would be Zent. Scout ships, the rest are to big (not counting the SDF-#) IMHO (smaller Shuttle/Transport would be another matter).

I can see the UEEF/UEDF dismantling Zent. ships to re purpose their various systems hole for either new ships OR installations (given the animation, it means none are on Earth by 2029). Logically though they would want to focus on the derelict ships first for this salvage and not useable ships (Claudia mentions Earth needing to lay their hands on as many ships/mecha as fast they can in Ep31 IIRC). They might also be able to restore additional ships by salvaging from various derelicts.

The RFS the UEDF/Zent. capture from Reno seems to be in need of some serious attention (Regult Production line may be down permanently, so other lines on the facility may be in similar shape), and we don't know when they get Liberty or the status of the other RFS the UEEF acquires (Reno's might be typical, or it might be in better/worse shape).

[jaymz]

I have several refitted for both the Pioneer mission as well as for colony purposes too.

I ignore the "canon" and use numbers derived from the uRRG. Why? Cuz I CAN!

Post Robotech wars I have them retrieve all the ships that were left (placed in a solar orbit in a dormant state) and refurbish/refit them and use them to rebuild the defenses of earth and the sentinels worlds. But thats just me.

[Jefffar]

I would suggest the old Macross II RPG which has stats for Zentran ships modified for Human/Zentran crews.

[jedi078]

I ignore the "canon" and use numbers derived from the uRRG. Why? Cuz I CAN!

The uRRG has IMO the best listing for mecha complements. Too many people try to stuff the space craft in their games with so many mecha (I have been guilty of it myself) as if they are turkey's.

I would suggest the old Macross II RPG which has stats for Zentran ships modified for Human/Zentran crews.

I use the Macross II deck plans myself.

[jaymz]

Well even those numbers are apparently off by nearly double for what they were in the Macross Proper. I leave them as is for Robotech and use adjusted ones for Macross Proper stuff is all.

I do like that the uRRG gives numbers as to how many ships more or less survived the RoD battle around earth.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

As RSCF illustrates, in the Comics, Breetai had a floatila of ships (7 are shown firing, not counting the flagship, looks like Destroyer or Landing Ship or Gunship type).

Upon closer examination, all the ships firing appear to be the Gunship type (general shape plus engine configuration).

[Seto Kaiba]

Supposedly, the Zentradi fleet was all but wiped out, with only a few intact ships ever seen in the years following. It would appear, based on what's been said both in the RTSC art book and RT RPG (2e) that any Zentradi warships that survived the final fleet engagement were sent to the breakers and summarily dismantled for salvage parts in order to build the ships that the Expeditionary Force would later use.

Actually, no. They were still using Zentraedi ships as of 2017, well after the buildup for the REF mission. Furthermore, the SDF-03 was wrapped in the exoskeleton of a Zentraedi Battlecuiser. They were already using the Tokugawa and Battle-class BEFORE the loss of the SDF-01 and SDF-02 in late 2013.

Hold onto your head, man, because I'm about to blow your mind...

You haven't actually contradicted me in any way.

The Zentradi fleet was all but wiped out... check, multiply confirmed in many Robotech sources.
Very few intact Zentradi ships remained after the war... check, you didn't contradict that.
The few intact Zentradi ships were broken up for parts and used to build new ships for the Earth Forces... check, that's no secret in either the RPG or AotSC.
There are no Zentradi ships in UEDF or UEEF service during the Pioneer mission... check, we've never seen even a one in UEDF or UEEF hands during the Pioneer mission.

After all, why waste huge amounts of resources trying to retrofit a single, large alien warship when you can break it up and build dozens of smaller ships with its systems and materials? Even in the Macross-verse, humanity didn't bother trying to retrofit Zentradi ships for full-miclone crews. They left the bulk of the crew as giants, and just fitted minimal changes to the interiors so miclones could get around without getting squished (as first evidenced in the original series).




Also, as a side note to ShadowLogan, Claudia's remark came at a time when the mission to Tirol was a "first strike" operation to preemptively disable the Robotech Masters before they could launch a second invasion. That plan seems to have died with Gloval, permitting it to become the mission of peaceful first contact (with MOAR DAKKA as a backup plan) thereafter.

[glitterboy2098]

actually it does contradict.. "breaking up" has a very specific connotation for ships.. destroying them so their materials can be recycled.

which your write up indicated. yet the comics show full zentreadi ships in use during that time period. thus a contradition.. if the fluff is accurate those ships shouldn't exist..

[jaymz]

actually it does contradict.. "breaking up" has a very specific connotation for ships.. destroying them so their materials can be recycled.

which your write up indicated. yet the comics show full zentreadi ships in use during that time period. thus a contradition.. if the fluff is accurate those ships shouldn't exist..

Those could very well have been the last ships left and after this "mission" they were put into drydock, decommissioned and scrapped for parts and materials.

[Seto Kaiba]

actually it does contradict.. "breaking up" has a very specific connotation for ships.. destroying them so their materials can be recycled.

Precisely... and we know from both the official material and the RPG that that's where the UEEF was getting things like fold drives and reflex furnaces.

which your write up indicated. yet the comics show full zentreadi ships in use during that time period.

No, they don't. Why? Because, as was clearly pointed out earlier, those panels depict events in the year 2017. The actual launch of the Pioneer Mission was in December 2022. That's five years separating the events in that comic from the official start of the Pioneer Mission and the deployment of the main Expeditionary Force. Plenty of time for UEEF shipyards to send that handful of Zentradi ships to be broken up for component salvage and material recycling. It could easily be true that in the comic, those ships are performing their last duty before being decommissioned. By 2022, Zentradi ships are completely absent from the UEDF and UEEF forces, and we're told straight-up that human ships built during that period are built around recovered Zentradi power systems and engines.

thus a contradition.. if the fluff is accurate those ships shouldn't exist..

No, there's no problem with the fluff... the problem is with some of your assumptions.

[Seto Kaiba]

That said... even if there were no Zentradi ships, I must amend my first reply. AotSC does assert that a limited number of Zentradi mecha were taken for Britai's Zentradi troops in the Expeditionary Forces. Of course, it also says that they were decimated to the extent that they could no longer effectively equip their troops, and had to have new gear based on the Bioroid developed for them.

So, presumably, "Not many" would be the total number of mecha. Both old and new sources seem to suggest that Britai's was the only Zentradi unit in the Expeditionary Forces... so it was probably never more than perhaps battalion or company-sized, if not smaller. By the time of Prelude, it seems to be down to maybe a couple platoons.

[sirkermittsg]

I would think that the various zentraedi ships that survived the ROD would have been taken for several reasons....first of all because of their micro factories....which only they and the SDF-3 had..... their weaponry was also heavier. remember that several ship classes had the massive reflex cannons that you saw on the macross. I cant see taking these vessels apart to get one single fold drive for a Tonkawa class vessel, some hull plating, and some guns for other ships. Why would you take a functional ship apart when you had thousands if not millions of damaged hulls that you could salvage?

[Colonel Wolfe]

I would think that the various zentraedi ships that survived the ROD would have been taken for several reasons....first of all because of their micro factories....which only they and the SDF-3 had..... their weaponry was also heavier. remember that several ship classes had the massive reflex cannons that you saw on the macross. I cant see taking these vessels apart to get one single fold drive for a Tonkawa class vessel, some hull plating, and some guns for other ships. Why would you take a functional ship apart when you had thousands if not millions of damaged hulls that you could salvage?

the Tokugawa was a pre2010 design, so it wouldn't have been able to take advantage of the Zentradi monitors reflex canon.
Humanity is shown to have little problem construction their own ships, regardless of the sources they get specific parts from. The ASC is able to launch several massive fleets to engage the Master's forces on multiple occasions, as well as the forces that were sent to deep space as part of the 2014 Pioneer mission.

[sirkermittsg]

So why break the ships with the best weaponry? And why not salvage reflex cannons for use in the coming war? Even the asc did not have them.

[mech798]

That is the question-- there are several problems with the "no zentraedi ships."

1. Earth was *surrounded* in the final battle. We see it. Being that Dolza's fortress didn't destroy the planet, it's reasonable to assuem that any ships shielded by the earth survived.

2. Breetai had a fleet of over a million ships. if even 1 percent survived that's about 10,000 ships, not counting any that survived/were captured from Dolza's force. Given that we know that the flagship survived and the flagship wsa escorting the SDF-1 right up until it made it's death plunge, it's reasonable to assume that any of Breetai's ships that were engaged (presumably further out) could have disengaged as well.

3. Zentraedi ships are far superior to anything we see the humans have, pretty much ever. Longer range weapons, larger cargo spaces, equipment that must be incredibly reliable. Refitting them should have been a no-brainer, especially since the SDF-1 also had a zentraedi crew (t least in part) and obviously refitting it hadn't been impossible.

But we don't see them.

Okay, out of universe-- again, it gets to HG's licensing problems and the fact that they're unlikely to ever GET permission to create derivative Macross stuff in animation. We don't see them because HG can't use them. End of story.

In Universe it's a bit more difficult. We could argue protoculture depletion, but that evidently wasn't a problem in building an entirely new fleet.

so my theory:

Who built the zentreaedi fleet? The Masters. The Masters pretty much defined paranoid and power hungry and so it's almost certain that they considered a zentreadi revolt, either independently or as an arm of a disloyal robotech master faction. They also know everything about zentreadi technology.

So, *at the very least* every single Robotech Master knows *exactly* what the weaknesses of the zentraedi fleet are. Do they have some giant version of Breetai's override beam one that works on zentreadi ships or tells the computers to dump the core and blow up? Who knows? Can you be *certain* that you've investigated every bit of code? What about nuclear weapons buried in the keel of the ship, waiting for an order to detonate? Etc. Etc. The REF simply couldn't risk it, because even if it was a 1% chance, it was still too great of a risk.

Of course, now we have the issue of wondering why every human ship built later, even with the zentreadi examples for study, was utterly pathetic compared to even the smaller ships in Breetai's fleet.

[jaymz]

I would think that the various zentraedi ships that survived the ROD would have been taken for several reasons....first of all because of their micro factories....which only they and the SDF-3 had..... their weaponry was also heavier. remember that several ship classes had the massive reflex cannons that you saw on the macross. I cant see taking these vessels apart to get one single fold drive for a Tonkawa class vessel, some hull plating, and some guns for other ships. Why would you take a functional ship apart when you had thousands if not millions of damaged hulls that you could salvage?

Correction. One class of Zentraedi ship had a Reflex cannon. The Zentraedi Monitor was the only ship class in the series to have a reflex cannon similar to the SDF-1. No other Zentraedi ship had such a weapon (The one notable exception being Breetai's ship in the Macross movie not the TV series). As for heavier weapons.....well The vast majority of those were likely targets for surgical strikes during the big epic battle so most were probably useless or scrap. They likely recovered many of the smaller gun turrets....which aren't really any heavier or more powerful then what earth already had but it is likely they did salvage some of those.

We know from some sources the Zentraedi ships were used for their powerplants/engines and hull plating to build the fairly large fleet of smaller vessel that were used by the ASC.

Sidenote - for obvious reasons the ASC had no reflex cannons. It was a completely separate anime series originally from Macross after all.

Personally - I go my own direction in several ways and only use canon, robotech.com, urrg, and a number of other sources and make my own version of robotech while trying to remain as close to the technical information I can within reason.

[jaymz]

Of course, now we have the issue of wondering why every human ship built later, even with the zentreadi examples for study, was utterly pathetic compared to even the smaller ships in Breetai's fleet.

Well I fix that issue......in my stuff but I also fix the issue of the glorified coffee warmer that is the Alpha gunpod and whole slew of other things....

To say 2nd ed is better than first....well it is more accurate at least but to say it is very accurate is not true either.

[ShadowLogan]

Also, as a side note to ShadowLogan, Claudia's remark came at a time when the mission to Tirol was a "first strike" operation to preemptively disable the Robotech Masters before they could launch a second invasion. That plan seems to have died with Gloval, permitting it to become the mission of peaceful first contact (with MOAR DAKKA as a backup plan) thereafter.

Agree that the time frame is important when the comment is made, which is a problem with this topic. The time frame is very open because it can be taken to cover any part of 2012-2044 time frame. Are we supposed to look at the time overall (majority) or a specific period within that time frame.

Incidently from the RT.com Timeline: "2016: Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force." There is no indication what these long-range scout vessels are, they could be Zentraedi, human, or some other alien vessel or vessels that have been captured that we don't know about.

I wouldn't be quick to dismiss the unknown alien aspect either given Ep36 Gloval "That’s our assignment Captain to follow the trail of the Robotech forces into outer space... ", and several lines later "...but even as we speak Captain the Robotech Forces are speeding back to their home world for reinforcements...And you can be sure when they return we'll be no match for them… ", I don't think this is reference to Khyron's group since they should have been able to spot a fold being executed. In addition we know "Space Pirates" exist as stated in TRM saga, though according to Emerson they don't use Robotechnology (but would show there is at least one other alien "power" out there).

After all, why waste huge amounts of resources trying to retrofit a single, large alien warship when you can break it up and build dozens of smaller ships with its systems and materials?

Time and Cost. It may be faster and more cost effective to retro-fit the Zentraedi ships for full human/micronian use than build and design whole new ship in the short term. Most ship examples by various blocks being tossed about here are incompatible in size and shape, but some of them could be used to form the basic skeletal structure/layout in specific instances between them.

It's also important to remember that Humanity doesn't have to necessarily use the Zentraedi vessels as warships. The Zentraedi ships could be used for one-way transport of a large population and quantity of supplies than typical human ships (and can provide materials at the destination if dismantled) for colonization. The N-S missiles are supposed to be retro-fitted colony ships, well the Zentraedi are shown to have a ship type numerous times in head-on shots that strongly resemble the NG/GCM missiles (can be seen "Blind Game" several times, "Battlehym", "Wedding Bells", and "Force of Arms") so the idea of using retrofitted Zentraedi ships in non-combat roles has merit and might be supportable w/n 85 ep itself (outside of it may be another matter).

They could also use them to set up space stations (likely using external docking like DS9 in Star Trek rather than the Fed. station types seen in movie III/IV and select TNG episodes).

That said... even if there were no Zentradi ships, I must amend my first reply. AotSC does assert that a limited number of Zentradi mecha were taken for Britai's Zentradi troops in the Expeditionary Forces. Of course, it also says that they were decimated to the extent that they could no longer effectively equip their troops, and had to have new gear based on the Bioroid developed for them.

Compared to the numbers the Zentraedi fleet (GF or Imperial) present, a handful is very vague. The UEEF likely did take additional units for replacement of losses, in addition to stockpiling a large supply of spare parts to keep existing units operating (battle damage, worn out, etc). Those wouldn't hold out indefinitely, but the information in the 2E RPG suggests those mecha supplies where running low by the time the Beta was in use (Zent. pilots had to squeeze in) and Tirol was liberated.

So why break the ships with the best weaponry? And why not salvage reflex cannons for use in the coming war? Even the asc did not have them.

Protoculture availability would be my guess. Those weapons may be gas guzzlers limiting their salvaged use. Space Folds take a lot of energy, and it might take less energy for smaller ships. So the UEDF:ASC/UEEF may seek to use the Protoculture more efficiently.

Political pressure may also be at play with regards to UEDF/UEEF defense authorizations (1E REF Zent. Battlepods are an example).

Of course, now we have the issue of wondering why every human ship built later, even with the zentreadi examples for study, was utterly pathetic compared to even the smaller ships in Breetai's fleet.

Ignoring TSC and later works, as they could be setup with some preconceived bias for standards that not all may agree on. The simple answer is they may not be as pathetic as hinted at in the animation. As you suggest the Masters (and Invid) may have counters to Zentraedi weaponry, which Earth could have based their designs, resulting in an apparent pathetic effectiveness.

[Colonel Wolfe]

So why break the ships with the best weaponry? And why not salvage reflex cannons for use in the coming war? Even the asc did not have them.

Honestly, Reflex canon's aren't shown to be really that effective. the SDF-1's reflec canon at max power barely takes out 2 smaller ships in the first episode... and against Khyron's monitor ship, it hardly touches it. even the improved synchrotron canon on the Shimikaza wasn't enough to destroy the Tokugawa, thou it did cripple it during the surprise attack.
The Heavy missiles carried by ships are more capable, shown that a few Reflex warheads carried by a fighter can take out ship. most Reflex canons are 400+ meters long, and are single direction fire, while missiles can be fired in multiple arcs and look to be much more effective.
a Reflex canon is great for the "rule-of-cool" anime effect... but honestly aren't that great if you look at them objectively, compared to the other ships systems and weaponry available.

[Seto Kaiba]

I would think that the various zentraedi ships that survived the ROD would have been taken for several reasons....first of all because of their micro factories [...]

You have to remember, the contents of the Palladium RPG are not, in many cases, an accurate reflection of the capabilities and performance of the vessels and mecha of the official Robotech universe. The so-called "micro-factories" that the RPG listed on the Zentradi ships simply do not exist in the official Robotech specs for those ships. It's a feature they don't actually have. The same probably goes for the SDF-3 as well.

[...] their weaponry was also heavier.

This is actually a Palladium-ism... it's an expression of the RPG's tendency to MASSIVELY short-sell the human ships and mecha for no clear reason. Were we to resort to the same source material Harmony Gold uses to write their own official stats, we would find that humanity's starship weapons are actually relatively comparable to Zentradi weapons. The ARMD-class carriers and Oberth-class guided missile destroyers didn't have the massive bombardment-grade gun systems like the Zentradi gun destroyers did, but their gun turrets are based on the same technology, just implemented on rather a larger scale than the Zentradi's beam turrets. (Boiling it down to the essential point... human ships might've had a lot fewer turrets, but those turrets packed more punch per shot.) Don't even get me started on the reaction warheads the Palladium stats short-sell by several DOZEN orders of magnitude...

Sufficed to say, Zentradi weaponry is not actually heavier in all but the one case... it's just more numerous. The death of a thousand cuts, instead of the death of a sledgehammer to the face.

I cant see taking these vessels apart to get one single fold drive for a Tonkawa class vessel, some hull plating, and some guns for other ships. Why would you take a functional ship apart when you had thousands if not millions of damaged hulls that you could salvage?

Because virtually all of those ships are considerably larger than the Macross, and it took them years to convert the interior spaces of the Macross to support humans even with all the resources of a pre-war Earth. It's probably a good deal easier building ships that actually fit your troops than trying to modify ships built for giants. (Even in Macross, in which the remaining UN Spacy forces appropriated THOUSANDS of surviving Zentradi ships and dozens of factory satellites, they just didn't even try to convert them to take a completely miclone crew.)

So why break the ships with the best weaponry? And why not salvage reflex cannons for use in the coming war? Even the asc did not have them.

Well, the "best weaponry" thing is a Palladium-ism. The "reflex cannon" thing is probably just a case of the gun itself being entirely too large to mount on a human ship (taking, as it does, most of the interior volume of the ship).

That is the question-- there are several problems with the "no zentraedi ships."

We'll see about that.

1. Earth was *surrounded* in the final battle. We see it. Being that Dolza's fortress didn't destroy the planet, it's reasonable to assuem that any ships shielded by the earth survived.

Earth was surrounded, yes... but you had a battle going that, in Robotech, was much fairer and more destructive than its Macross origins. The original Macross version saw about 1.795 million Zentradi ships destroyed between what the Grand Cannon destroyed and what was lost during the final fleet engagement. The other 3 million ships of the Zentradi Army's 118th Main Fleet fled, as per their standing orders, once their command ships were lost.

Robotech's version mentions that at least 4 million were destroyed in the massive detonation of the mothership, which the Masters detected from considerable distance. Instead of going in outnumbered approximately 3,000 to 1, they went in outnumbered only about 4 to 1. Losses sustained by human-friendly Zentradi fighting Dolza's loyal forces probably put the number of losses MUCH higher. Then Breetai proceeded to nearly annihilate the fleet guarding the factory satellite, so the number of recoverable ships from that was likely VERY low.

Given that we know that the flagship survived and the flagship wsa escorting the SDF-1 right up until it made it's death plunge, it's reasonable to assume that any of Breetai's ships that were engaged (presumably further out) could have disengaged as well.

It's also quite likely that losses sustained by the COLOSSAL explosion of a mothership nearly the size of the moon didn't do any favors to the surviving fleet elements, friendly and enemy, in orbit.

3. Zentraedi ships are far superior to anything we see the humans have, pretty much ever. Longer range weapons, larger cargo spaces, equipment that must be incredibly reliable.

Less so than the RPG makes out. Remember, Palladium has a bad habit of exaggerating the performance disparity between human and Zentradi tech in the Robotech RPG. They massively short-sell everything humanity has, WRT their alien enemies. The larger cargo spaces sort of evaporate when you remember that the crew's body volume is 125 times that of a standard human, and the reliability of their equipment... well... remember what a mess Breetai's ship remained until humans fixed it?

Okay, out of universe-- again, it gets to HG's licensing problems and the fact that they're unlikely to ever GET permission to create derivative Macross stuff in animation. We don't see them because HG can't use them. End of story.

It's more like we don't see them because the three parts of Robotech were completed separate universes, so you didn't have Zentradi appearing in MOSPEADA or Southern Cross. The ships don't appear because they weren't a part of the setting of the other two shows. Yes, Harmony Gold can't use the Zentradi designs... but every saga of Robotech has to come up with SOME excuse for why tons of military hardware mysteriously goes walkabout and there's no common gear between the various branches of the service.


EDIT: Hell's bells, I just did the math for how wide of the mark Palladium's numbers really are... that's an uncomfortably large number of zeroes that they left out.

[Seto Kaiba]

Agree that the time frame is important when the comment is made, which is a problem with this topic. The time frame is very open because it can be taken to cover any part of 2012-2044 time frame. Are we supposed to look at the time overall (majority) or a specific period within that time frame.

The OP did specify why Zentradi ships weren't used on the Pioneer mission. That narrows the timeframe to 2022-2044, so there's actually no problem at all.

Incidently from the RT.com Timeline: "2016: Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force." There is no indication what these long-range scout vessels are, [...]

Don't we actually see one such group, and it's Tokugawa-class?

Time and Cost. It may be faster and more cost effective to retro-fit the Zentraedi ships for full human/micronian use than build and design whole new ship in the short term.

Or, considering the vast expense and investment of time necessary to retrofit the SDF-1, it may be that the opposite is true and it takes LONGER to retrofit a ship designed for a crew 5 times human size. (This would certainly be consistent with the OSM, and therefore is most likely true for Robotech as well given Harmony Gold's leanings.)

[ShadowLogan]

Don't we actually see one such group, and it's Tokugawa-class?

Not exactly. There are the ships in 2013 due to the recycled footage, and then we have the single Tokugawa-class returning in 2029/30 without escort (ASC did send up ships to reinforce) after 15years. In any case that does not mean that the fleet tasked with the mission has to be exclusively TRM-era ships.

Or, considering the vast expense and investment of time necessary to retrofit the SDF-1, it may be that the opposite is true and it takes LONGER to retrofit a ship designed for a crew 5 times human size. (This would certainly be consistent with the OSM, and therefore is most likely true for Robotech as well given Harmony Gold's leanings.)

Possible, but the SDF-1 may not be the best place to start for a couple of reasons.

1. The conversion was not complete on the SDF-1, there where still whole sections that can still accommodate the giant Zentraedi even in 2009 after "10 years" (see pt4) of reconstruction (ep4, various instances of mecha flying about, the rebuilt city and base, etc). Breetai's ship is shown to have some micronian accommodations after 2years, and his flagship is several time larger than the SDF-1. If they could convert Breetai's ship (IINM the largest vessel in the fleet not counting stations) in 2years, then the smaller ships should be doable in that time frame.

2. Lessons learned. The SDF-1 was the first time it had been done, future examples should be able to apply some lessons learned from the SDF-1 to speed up the time/resource investment. That might explain the fast time on Breetai's ship (limited as it was).

3. RFS may or may not be useable (it was supposed to be building warships), it really depends on how extensive the production being down extends to the facility. There obviously is some time to learn the computers and such, but once that is done...

4. 10 years was not the actual reconstruction effort. They would need time to get organized and such before the actual work could begin. This includes things like infrastructure to service the ship (it was on keels for launch it certainly did not start there), it also included a full hull face-lift (SSL) which may or may not be necessary (RT could always take the view that the molted look is due to the actual age of the ships and "newer" vessels are more polished). Plus considerable R&D (some/most of which can likely be recouped to shorten a Zent. ship) to get them up to speed and build the factories to produce the materials (SDF-1 did have a huge hole in the side of the hull, they likely could not simply use existing materials to patch it).

The ships don't appear because they weren't a part of the setting of the other two shows. Yes, Harmony Gold can't use the Zentradi designs... but every saga of Robotech has to come up with SOME excuse for why tons of military hardware mysteriously goes walkabout and there's no common gear between the various branches of the service.

Originally they ships could not appear because they weren't part of the setting of the other shows involved in creating RT. However, if someone wanted to put in the time at HG (way back when, or even now) they might be able to pull of an editing job using juxtaposition to create era crossover events for hardware.

Part of the explanation for the change is built into the show as the elapsed time between eras (15years for the first two, though I don't agree with it the middle and third). One can also take the view that UEDF:RDF designs where limited availability after FoA, and it was easier to produce new designs (UEEF or UEDF:ASC) that took over. UEEF:ASC gear may be in short supply for NG because they "where no match for the battle hungry Invid", and it isn't like the UEEF is shown to use the same mecha as the UEDF:ASC so its possible the each branch was equipped uniquely (as much as it doesn't make sense to do so).

[Seto Kaiba]

Possible, but the SDF-1 may not be the best place to start for a couple of reasons.

True, but we can always point to Breetai's ship as an alternate example... it's the one Zentradi ship that is shown to be in UEDF service after the war, and the concessions to non-Zentradi crew are fairly minimal. That points to it not being very practical to convert these ships to a full-human crew... which is entirely consistent with Macross's later line on that same subject, and therefore almost certainly the case for Robotech for reasons we all know only too well.

3. RFS may or may not be useable (it was supposed to be building warships), it really depends on how extensive the production being down extends to the facility. [...]

Assuming we adopt the same sourcing practices as above, the facility most likely was able to operate as a shipyard... but was probably put to the task of fabricating new human-designed ships instead. (The same thing it did in Macross.)

However, if someone wanted to put in the time at HG (way back when, or even now) they might be able to pull of an editing job using juxtaposition to create era crossover events for hardware.

't ain't exactly that easy... splicing tiny bits of "This is happening somewhere else" works, but if you're trying to get material into the same scene from two different sagas, it's all but impossible.

One can also take the view that UEDF:RDF designs where limited availability after FoA, and it was easier to produce new designs (UEEF or UEDF:ASC) that took over.

But there was an established factory aboard the SDF-1 which produced, among other things, destroid and Valkyrie parts... the shortage of manpower was likely a greater concern than limited availability of hardware. The RPG establishes that the ASC designs are as much a case of Leonard being angry at prevailing tactical policy as military necessity, and I'm sure we both agree the official lines on that front border on nonsense.

UEEF:ASC gear may be in short supply for NG because they "where no match for the battle hungry Invid", and it isn't like the UEEF is shown to use the same mecha as the UEDF:ASC so its possible the each branch was equipped uniquely (as much as it doesn't make sense to do so).

Problem with that is that it doesn't tally at all with what we're told and shown later on... if the objective measurements of capability are anything to go by, a modern infantry platoon with anti-materiel rifles should be able to match those "battle hungry Invid" quite handily.

Sometimes... things in Robotech just don't make sense. Palladium adds to those areas of head-scratching nonsense quite often in areas.



EDIT: To clarify my previous remark of how wide of the mark Palladium is sometimes when it comes to the performance of humanity's weapons... if weapon damage was scaled linearly instead of having values picked apparently at random, those missiles on the SF-3A Lancer II from the Macross Saga book should deal about 6 million times the damage that anti-armor railgun on the Super Cyclone puts out. The Oberth-class's comparatively low-yield anti-ship missiles would be easily into the billions PER WARHEAD.

[ShadowLogan]

True, but we can always point to Breetai's ship as an alternate example... it's the one Zentradi ship that is shown to be in UEDF service after the war, and the concessions to non-Zentradi crew are fairly minimal. That points to it not being very practical to convert these ships to a full-human crew... which is entirely consistent with Macross's later line on that same subject, and therefore almost certainly the case for Robotech for reasons we all know only too well.

Breetai's flagship though is approximatly x14 larger than the SDF-1 (by volume). So the two ships aren't even in the same size category to be directly comparable. Breetai's ship shows they can do a conversion to some extent within 2years for a ship many times larger than the SDF-1, which would point positively to converting over "smaller" Zentraedi vessels they might have acquired for human use.

Assuming we adopt the same sourcing practices as above, the facility most likely was able to operate as a shipyard... but was probably put to the task of fabricating new human-designed ships instead. (The same thing it did in Macross.)

At the very least the RFS makes for a dry dock, where humans could assemble ships on their own in microgravity (we see such activity in the Sent. OVA).

I agree new ship designs are more likely in the long run, but in the short run it may be used to retro-fit existing ships. There was a pressing need for ships and mecha at one point afterall.

't ain't exactly that easy... splicing tiny bits of "This is happening somewhere else" works, but if you're trying to get material into the same scene from two different sagas, it's all but impossible.

I never said it would be easy, and I would point you to the original RT opening credits where juxtaposition implies that Dana's rifle is used to blast a Zentraedi ship (a less well done one involves Rick and CVR-3 in a cockpit).

But there was an established factory aboard the SDF-1 which produced, among other things, destroid and Valkyrie parts... the shortage of manpower was likely a greater concern than limited availability of hardware. The RPG establishes that the ASC designs are as much a case of Leonard being angry at prevailing tactical policy as military necessity, and I'm sure we both agree the official lines on that front border on nonsense.

The factory on the SDF-1 though is limited in output, and once other facilities start to appear elsewhere the shift may be toward new hardware designs (that nicely explains the change in hardware given the time jumps).

Problem with that is that it doesn't tally at all with what we're told and shown later on... if the objective measurements of capability are anything to go by, a modern infantry platoon with anti-materiel rifles should be able to match those "battle hungry Invid" quite handily.

Do not forget that the Southern Cross was weary from the war with the Masters. So they wheren't in top form, and atleast by the 85ep no indiction on how long between Invasion and end of the Masters (IINM timeline puts it at ~1year, hardly enough to rebuild from such a devestating war, and I would actually put it w/n a few days due to Denver's evacuation orders in TRM and NG episode) The Invid also invaded much differently than the Zent/Masters (who used a similar approach), likely not giving the ASC as much time to counter or organize.

EDIT: To clarify my previous remark of how wide of the mark Palladium is sometimes when it comes to the performance of humanity's weapons... if weapon damage was scaled linearly instead of having values picked apparently at random, those missiles on the SF-3A Lancer II from the Macross Saga book should deal about 6 million times the damage that anti-armor railgun on the Super Cyclone puts out. The Oberth-class's comparatively low-yield anti-ship missiles would be easily into the billions PER WARHEAD.

I agree Palladium weapon damages (and "armor") have always been out of scale and has been an issue with MDC system since 1e days. I almost wonder how RT would hav turned out as an SDC setting, but the one modern SDC setting I've seen uses the same missile table as MDC (just damage is SDC). While the size (dia) of the weapon is nice, some idea of the energy output would be nice, but then I suppose the things might break down for game mechanics and show how much they just arbitrarily assign damage/armor values.

As for the missile vs projectile, I would look at this way (2 parts: 1. PB wanted to use a standard missile table and 2). The missile is spreading the damage out over a much larger area due to the blast radius, where the projectiles are more focused. There was a topic awhile back about doing the most damage in a melee round in the Rifts forum. If one makes assumptions about what's in the blast radius, one can get some impressive damages with the spell/level used that one could NOT do with a more focused attack short of a eflex/Syncro-cannon. http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=131038&

[jaymz]

Actually the arrival of the Invid is established in LLA as 2041 so they had a good ten years to prep for the Invid's arrival. I think it was more of the en masse take no prisoners assault that threw things out the window

[ShadowLogan]

Are you sure its 2041 in LLA, the youtube clip for the opening puts the arrival at 2031 just like every other source according to the narrator. (No I haven't seen the entire thing yet)

[jaymz]

I watched it last night but I can double check.

Again though, I would say it still had more to do with all out no holds barred take no prisoners assault which earth never really had to face before (Even Dolza's attack wasn't that all out beyond the initial bombardment)

Edit - rewatched the opening and yes it was 2031 not 2041. I must have misheard the narrator last night. I still think it had more to do with what i said above though than any real unpreparedness.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The invid attack came weeks if not days after zor did his trick. They had enough time to organize some evacuations like Denver but the combined asc and ref forces at earth failed. From the time tables it looks like the invid assault on earth started the fighting in deep space against the regent

[jaymz]

It's possible.

[Seto Kaiba]

Breetai's ship shows they can do a conversion to some extent within 2years for a ship many times larger than the SDF-1, which would point positively to converting over "smaller" Zentraedi vessels they might have acquired for human use.

A very minimal conversion... remember, every key system is still operated by a full-size Zentradi crew.

I agree new ship designs are more likely in the long run, but in the short run it may be used to retro-fit existing ships. There was a pressing need for ships and mecha at one point afterall.

Unless, of course, they go with the established precedent that retrofitting a massive ship completely is much more wasteful of resources than scrapping said massive ship and recycling the alloys and composites of its hull and its onboard systems to build new ships to order.

Do not forget that the Southern Cross was weary from the war with the Masters.

I think it might be more accurate to say "the Southern Cross had been massacred in the war with the Masters"... which is an entirely sound reason for their inability to resist another alien invasion mere weeks or months later (at most). They were, per canon, underequipped to begin with, so that they lasted as long as they did speaks volumes to either the laid-back attitude of the Masters or their suicidal tenacity (possibly both).

I agree Palladium weapon damages (and "armor") have always been out of scale and has been an issue with MDC system since 1e days.

There's "out of scale" and then "completely arbitrary". The RT RPG definitely belongs to the latter category. It breaks the very definition of a MDC system, which is all kinds of ironic.

I almost wonder how RT would hav turned out as an SDC setting, but the one modern SDC setting I've seen uses the same missile table as MDC (just damage is SDC).

Quite honestly, based on my discussions with TPTB and their choices for stats, Robotech really should be a SDC setting. Technologically, and performance-wise, it's closer to the Gundam end of the real robot capability spectrum, where one megawatt (be it in generator output or beam weapon power) is something impressive and robots are largely slow and plodding walkers that're a bit on the clumsy side. This is mostly a function of Southern Cross and MOSPEADA, which are definitely SDC settings when viewed separately.

[ShadowLogan]

The invid attack came weeks if not days after zor did his trick. They had enough time to organize some evacuations like Denver but the combined asc and ref forces at earth failed. From the time tables it looks like the invid assault on earth started the fighting in deep space against the regent

Denver though is evacuated in one of the last two episodes of TRM saga (sorry forget which off hand), and IIRC Lancer says the evacuation order was dated the day (or so) before the Invid Invasion. Either Denver was evacuated twice, or they refer to the same evacuation.

Unless, of course, they go with the established precedent that retrofitting a massive ship completely is much more wasteful of resources than scrapping said massive ship and recycling the alloys and composites of its hull and its onboard systems to build new ships to order.

That is likely in the long run, but I don't think they need to retrofit everything on the ship for a human crew cause they certainly did not due it for the SDF-1.

one also has to consider if the "loyal" Zentraedi population was enough to staff all the "salvaged" Zent. ships available. We know not all Zentraedi took to this new status quo w/n those 2 years w/n the 85ep.

I think it might be more accurate to say "the Southern Cross had been massacred in the war with the Masters"... which is an entirely sound reason for their inability to resist another alien invasion mere weeks or months later (at most). They were, per canon, underequipped to begin with, so that they lasted as long as they did speaks volumes to either the laid-back attitude of the Masters or their suicidal tenacity (possibly both).

That is how the ASC was basically described by the narrator in Ep61.

There's "out of scale" and then "completely arbitrary". The RT RPG definitely belongs to the latter category. It breaks the very definition of a MDC system, which is all kinds of ironic.

I think its a bit of both actually. In some aspects straight arbitrary more easily applies (ex bonuses/penalties), but there are also aspect where it is applied more uniformly (ex armor) giving rise to the issue of scale in the aspects that people generally look at more (dmg/protect as opposed to bonus/penalty IMHO).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

They were, per canon, underequipped to begin with, so that they lasted as long as they did speaks volumes to either the laid-back attitude of the Masters or their suicidal tenacity (possibly both).

The Southern Cross was not underequipped! Where do you get this crap, Seto? Seriously, where does it EVER state they were underequipped? The REF had the SAME EQUIPMENT, or how else do you explain Transport Squadron 85 and TS-377, TS-378, TS-379 and T-380?

[Seto Kaiba]

one also has to consider if the "loyal" Zentraedi population was enough to staff all the "salvaged" Zent. ships available. We know not all Zentraedi took to this new status quo w/n those 2 years w/n the 85ep.

When you think about it, that may have been a significant factor in the decision to send the surviving Zentradi ships to the breakers. Remodeling the interior to accept a 100% human-sized crew would require a massive investment of both time and resources, and being unable to find sufficient crew to operate the ships would leave the UEEF in the position where it would either be "scrap it or scuttle it".

I think its a bit of both actually. In some aspects straight arbitrary more easily applies (ex bonuses/penalties), but there are also aspect where it is applied more uniformly (ex armor) giving rise to the issue of scale in the aspects that people generally look at more (dmg/protect as opposed to bonus/penalty IMHO).

Aye, and it does a disservice to the human ships when the weapons we see them pop Zentradi ships with are reduced to glorified party snaps for no clear reason.

They were, per canon, underequipped to begin with, so that they lasted as long as they did speaks volumes to either the laid-back attitude of the Masters or their suicidal tenacity (possibly both).

The Southern Cross was not underequipped! Where do you get this crap, Seto? Seriously, where does it EVER state they were underequipped? The REF had the SAME EQUIPMENT, or how else do you explain Transport Squadron 85 and TS-377, TS-378, TS-379 and T-380?

Well, there's Robotech II: the Sentinels for starters... but pretty much every recent publication concerning itself with the whys and hows of the Southern Cross sticks to the usual excuses for the Southern Cross Army losing: bad leadership, and either sub-par or short equipment. The simple and straightforward answer for Transport Squadron 85... the ships that unit used are, canonically, reserved for rear-echelon supply duty due to deficient combat performance. It wouldn't be any surprise if they, as a low-priority rear-echelon unit, were equipped with sub-par hardware that had either been phased out of the front-line units or was in the process of being phased out. (Even the RPG sticks with the idea that the Southern Cross's gear wasn't quite as good as what the UEEF actually had.)

[jaymz]

Guys, while I am not a mod, nor do I want to be one, I'd like to NOT see this thread get locked. It's a good thread so let;s try to be....civil as best we can? Please?

[glitterboy2098]

actually the "earth only had the SDF-1 and 200 VF's" is also a case of the big lie.. we see VF's in use on the ARMD platforms, we have the oberths and ARMD's, we see VF's do a flyby of the SDF-1 when it lands back on earth, we see VF's and destroids at the grand cannon, not to mention the quite sizeable force of transports and stuff that resupply the SDF-1..

while there is no doubt earth was not fully prepared for the zentreadi to arrive at that time, they sure as heck had a lot more than just the SDF-1 and a few wings of VF's for their defense.

their main area where you can really claim them to be under equipped is in regards to planetary defense stations like the grand cannons.

[ShadowLogan]

When you think about it, that may have been a significant factor in the decision to send the surviving Zentradi ships to the breakers. Remodeling the interior to accept a 100% human-sized crew would require a massive investment of both time and resources, and being unable to find sufficient crew to operate the ships would leave the UEEF in the position where it would either be "scrap it or scuttle it".

In the long term yes, it would result in the ships being scarped for parts/materials. Still the UEDF/UEEF may still have gone with retro-fitting as a short-term solution until the next generation of ships was ready and in sufficient supply. They might also want to have a few of these ships around in the scouting mission (2016) to avoid attracting unwanted attention (along the SDF-3 "disguse" line of thinking) if Loyalist supply was insufficient to meet their staffing needs.

[jaymz]

actually the "earth only had the SDF-1 and 200 VF's" is also a case of the big lie.. we see VF's in use on the ARMD platforms, we have the oberths and ARMD's, we see VF's do a flyby of the SDF-1 when it lands back on earth, we see VF's and destroids at the grand cannon, not to mention the quite sizeable force of transports and stuff that resupply the SDF-1..

while there is no doubt earth was not fully prepared for the zentreadi to arrive at that time, they sure as heck had a lot more than just the SDF-1 and a few wings of VF's for their defense.

their main area where you can really claim them to be under equipped is in regards to planetary defense stations like the grand cannons.

I believe wolfe was referencing specifically after the RoD gb.

[Colonel Wolfe]

actually the "earth only had the SDF-1 and 200 VF's" is also a case of the big lie.. we see VF's in use on the ARMD platforms, we have the oberths and ARMD's, we see VF's do a flyby of the SDF-1 when it lands back on earth, we see VF's and destroids at the grand cannon, not to mention the quite sizeable force of transports and stuff that resupply the SDF-1..

while there is no doubt earth was not fully prepared for the zentreadi to arrive at that time, they sure as heck had a lot more than just the SDF-1 and a few wings of VF's for their defense.

their main area where you can really claim them to be under equipped is in regards to planetary defense stations like the grand cannons.

I believe wolfe was referencing specifically after the RoD gb.

Since my post was removed without reason. I'll say that yes, I was referencing the time after the RoD when only the SDF-1 existed. The RoD leaves the earth with only the SDF-1 and its compliments of VF-1's and destroids.

[Seto Kaiba]

In the long term yes, it would result in the ships being scarped for parts/materials. Still the UEDF/UEEF may still have gone with retro-fitting as a short-term solution until the next generation of ships was ready and in sufficient supply.

That raises the question of whether or not the UEDF/UEEF had a shortage of ships to begin with... or at least, a shortage that didn't coincide with a shortage of manpower to crew said ships.

actually the "earth only had the SDF-1 and 200 VF's" is also a case of the big lie.. we see VF's in use on the ARMD platforms, we have the oberths and ARMD's, we see VF's do a flyby of the SDF-1 when it lands back on earth, we see VF's and destroids at the grand cannon, not to mention the quite sizeable force of transports and stuff that resupply the SDF-1..

Well, it depends on when he's talking about, to be fair... though Robotech's official sources do not offer anything about the disposition of the Earth forces after the bombardment the way the OSM does. Macross saw the SDF-1 add something like a hundred more VF-1s to its forces during its resupply stopover, so they finished the war with more fighters than they started with. Robotech... well... who knows? From the RPG's standpoint, there should be way more than just 200, since the RPG significantly deviates from the series by claiming there were millions of survivors instead of the 70k the narrator and Leonard state. As far as the deficiencies of their orbital defenses, that's mostly Leonard's fault... he had to go and blow up a Grand Cannon in the name of his failed coup attempt.

The military in the series version of things took quite a pasting though... between the manpower losses that were so total that they couldn't muster enough recruits to have an academy graduating class for 17 years, and the supposed near-total destruction of the Zentradi population, there wouldn't have been a heck of a lot of free hands to crew starships... Zentradi or otherwise.

[Chris0013]

one also has to consider if the "loyal" Zentraedi population was enough to staff all the "salvaged" Zent. ships available. We know not all Zentraedi took to this new status quo w/n those 2 years w/n the 85ep.

When you think about it, that may have been a significant factor in the decision to send the surviving Zentradi ships to the breakers. Remodeling the interior to accept a 100% human-sized crew would require a massive investment of both time and resources, and being unable to find sufficient crew to operate the ships would leave the UEEF in the position where it would either be "scrap it or scuttle it".

I think its a bit of both actually. In some aspects straight arbitrary more easily applies (ex bonuses/penalties), but there are also aspect where it is applied more uniformly (ex armor) giving rise to the issue of scale in the aspects that people generally look at more (dmg/protect as opposed to bonus/penalty IMHO).

Aye, and it does a disservice to the human ships when the weapons we see them pop Zentradi ships with are reduced to glorified party snaps for no clear reason.

They were, per canon, underequipped to begin with, so that they lasted as long as they did speaks volumes to either the laid-back attitude of the Masters or their suicidal tenacity (possibly both).

The Southern Cross was not underequipped! Where do you get this crap, Seto? Seriously, where does it EVER state they were underequipped? The REF had the SAME EQUIPMENT, or how else do you explain Transport Squadron 85 and TS-377, TS-378, TS-379 and T-380?

Well, there's Robotech II: the Sentinels for starters... but pretty much every recent publication concerning itself with the whys and hows of the Southern Cross sticks to the usual excuses for the Southern Cross Army losing: bad leadership, and either sub-par or short equipment. The simple and straightforward answer for Transport Squadron 85... the ships that unit used are, canonically, reserved for rear-echelon supply duty due to deficient combat performance. It wouldn't be any surprise if they, as a low-priority rear-echelon unit, were equipped with sub-par hardware that had either been phased out of the front-line units or was in the process of being phased out. (Even the RPG sticks with the idea that the Southern Cross's gear wasn't quite as good as what the UEEF actually had.)

Gotta agree with Seto....the ASC was not really prepared for the fight they got into....While I would not say they were under-equipped...they were ill-equipped. I am sure they had sufficient power armor and battloids for their purposed. But it is along the lines of a quote attributed Josef Stalin..."quantity has a quality all it's own". As well (to me) it appears that Leonard's belief was that overwhelming infantry and armor with air support would win any war. However he got into a war with a completely air mobile military. Tirolian Dropships outclassed his Air Force and would unleash dozens of Bioroids on hoversleds. Hovertanks, Ajacs, and to a degree the Logans could match them but were really considered support mecha not frontline units. Now if they has an military based around the VHT as the main battle tank/battloid and were able to have replaced the majority of fighter craft with Ajacs they would have been better off.

In regards to leadership....Leonard was a micro manager who continually sent competent officers off to get killed because they dared try to talk sense to him about his tactics of throwing wave after wave at the enemy trying to win the war by attrition.

[Jefffar]

There is a topic here, somewhere. Perhaps it involves converted Zentraedi vessels used by the Earth forces?

[sirkermittsg]

the Ajax is not, and was never an aireal superiority fighter. It does not have the speed necessary to fight most aireal targets including the gnerls, drop ships, and other aircraft present on earth or in space after ROD. I understand the political reasons for not keeping the VF-1's but the VF-1 was far superior as a fighter to the Ajax. The Ajax began life as a transformable helicopter and it sucked eggs as a fighter. As an air calvery unit for fighting in cities it rocked....but out in the open it really could not hold a candle to what the VF-1's were capable of...especially when you considered the tread boosters, fast packs, and armors that were available to the Valkryies that were not available to the Ajax. If Leanord had been smart, he would have had a bunch of VF-1's added to the TAF.

So here is the new question: The zent ships that survived....how did they get used between ROD and the Pioneer mission? were any of them sent out on other missions? From my thinking, it does not make sense that the SDF-3 went out alone...putting it into a shell does not make much sense if the other ships with it looked nothing like zent ships.

By the way, in my opinion, the idea that only the SDF-1 and macross city accounted for all the suvivors and mecha is abit fool hardy. I think 1E got it right when they estimated that something like 300 million humans survived the ROD.

[Chris0013]

I would say that short term...they kept the functional Zentraedi ships.....but as they built more and more Tristars, Tokagawas, etc....they phased the Zentraedi ships out to be used as material to build the earth fleet.

I think from the shot of the comic book page that there were several intact Monitors in use....and my question would be why some of those weren't converted / rebuilt like the SDF-1 was. While a main gun like that really is limited in use (whatever you are shooting at needs to be in direct line of the gun and not moving very fast) it is a force multiplier. maybe 8 to 12 of them converted would have given the ASC a better chance against the Master's motherships.

[Jefffar]

I am sure the Masters would have taken steps to ensure the weapons of their former slaves were useless against them. They strike me as the right combination of paranoid and intelligent for that.