Game universe differences between Robotech and source animes

[Seto Kaiba]

IMHO we've had MDC constructs and weapons in action for at least a century, possibly closer to two. So all the settings can be considered MDC easily.

Eh... I suppose one COULD argue that, at least based on RT2E's presentation of a 70kj railgun being a relatively potent mega-damage weapon. 70kj is only marginal when it comes to what we would today consider an anti-armor round, the sort of thing that would've been used against aircraft 75 years ago.

Even so, if one wanted to classify the settings of Southern Cross and MOSPEADA as being mega-damage settings, there's a question of scale. The armor materials in both are not exactly what you'd call impervious, but they're at least up to snuff with what a modern battle tank might have, but with considerably thinner material. So you could, within reason, give them a MDC value that corresponded to what a modern Abrams might have. Then, of course, if one wanted to keep things within their proper proportion, one would find themselves giving the Macross mecha considerably greater MDC values (easily on an order of 10-20x above a modern MBT TO START) and weapon damages that are far in excess of what the modern world has.

(Don't even get me started on what you'd have to do to scale stuff from the main Macross universe circa 2040-2060 properly... that's just too many zeroes.)

[ShadowLogan]

Eh... I'm afraid you're incorrect.

It's visible on slow motion that the wing gets shredded during landing (though without interacting with anything apparently), but the damage you refer to is from the VHT/Logan interaction, not the Logan/Bioroid interaction (the wing is not visibly deformed at 20:03). None of the damage apparent after coming to a rest is from the Bioroid collision itself, it's all from the VHT.

We also have to remember that the VHT is likely designed to handle impact energies differently than those buildings the VF-1 plowed through. While there are some similarities in the situation, there are also some key differences involved here. And it isn't like there are a few low speed collisions one can point to with regard to the VF-1, though these are in melee combat (something the Logan doesn't do) like Breetai flinging Rick's VF-1 into a wall of (convenient) spikes that puncture straight through, or Breetai deforming Ben's VF-1 head with a pipe, or a single blow from an MPA kicking a VF-1 into several pieces.

True, though my remark that Hikaru's fall was NOT arrested by thrusters is also true.

Not quite. The VT-1D foot thrusters do engage for the terminal part of the landing, just like on the VHT/Logan combo, so they did contribute to bringing the mecha to a stop. They can be seen in use at ~20:38 (time code may vary by edition) in Ep1, a civilian can be seen get blown out of the shot by the exhaust as a foot can be seen smashing through a wall.

[Colonel Wolfe]

IMHO we've had MDC constructs and weapons in action for at least a century, possibly closer to two. So all the settings can be considered MDC easily.

if moderen tech is remotly MD, then all the show's would be MD.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

if moderen tech is remotly MD, then all the show's would be MD.

Ironic that some want to put forward the completely inane and illogical meme that only the Macross mecha could be considered MDC, but God knows not the Southern Cross or MOSPEADA.

I mean, in the case of Southern Cross its a technologically oriented society that has anti-grav technology (otherwise, how could they have artificial gravity minus a carousel for their ships), widespread hover technology (even in the hands of civilians), beam weaponry and clamshell body armor for regular infantry, capability of overcoming the speed of light (or else they can break the laws of physics and create a wormhole/spacefold) and travel across space without it taking months/years.

MOSPEADA, of course, has anti-grav technology (otherwise, no artificial gravity without a carousel), clamshell body armor and beam weaponry for regular infantry, capability of crossing from Mars to Earth in a matter of days at most...yet its supposedly at the level of Gundam which doesn't have artificial gravity and travel between planets takes weeks or more.

I mean, truly, how could someone rationally come with some argument that twists things so badly?

[Jefffar]

IMHO we've had MDC constructs and weapons in action for at least a century, possibly closer to two. So all the settings can be considered MDC easily.

if moderen tech is remotly MD, then all the show's would be MD.

Well in the RPG we have a number of modern weapons listed as doing MDC damage (Heavy Machineguns, 40mm grenades, Automatic Cannons, 70mm rockets, 105mm Tank Cannons ...). In real life, we have a number of combat vehicles that are impervious to damage from anything less than those weapons.

So yeah, we have MDC in real life.

Winding it back, some of those weapons have been in use in one form or another for a century (the .50 was developed at the end of World War I for example), so in the real world, MDC weapons have been in place for a century at least.

So yeah, we've had MDC in this world for quite some time and Robotech makes use of many of those same weapons. As such, all of Robotech is logically an MDC setting (and so should Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, After the Bomb, Systems Failure and Dead Reign if you want to get technical about it).

The OSM would also be MDC as long as we see something that is either based on or represents and enhancement over modern weaponry and armour.

[Seto Kaiba]

None of the damage apparent after coming to a rest is from the Bioroid collision itself, it's all from the VHT.

That was kind of my point... that the crash, unlike the VF-1D's crash, caused some pretty visible damage despite being at rather a lower velocity and into less in the way of intervening obstacles.

And it isn't like there are a few low speed collisions one can point to with regard to the VF-1, though these are in melee combat (something the Logan doesn't do) like Breetai flinging Rick's VF-1 into a wall of (convenient) spikes that puncture straight through, or Breetai deforming Ben's VF-1 head with a pipe, or a single blow from an MPA kicking a VF-1 into several pieces.

But all of those are readily explainable as being the exact same sort of supermaterials that the VF-1 itself is made from... to say nothing of Britai's CONSIDERABLE strength above and beyond the Zentradi norm.

Ironic that some want to put forward the completely inane and illogical meme that only the Macross mecha could be considered MDC, but God knows not the Southern Cross or MOSPEADA. [...]

Oh, I appreciate good irony... like the irony that I, who has little time for Southern Cross, apparently know a good deal more about Southern Cross than the self-styled "Rabid Southern Cross Fan".

My argument is not inane or illogical, the only problem here is that I apparently have better access to the information than you do (being able to read Japanese is a heck of an unfair advantage) and I'm not protesting on the basis of a number of unfounded assumptions regarding the technological setting of Southern Cross.

Warning: Warning for Trolling - I don't see anybody taking shots at you about your screen name.

I mean, in the case of Southern Cross its a technologically oriented society that has anti-grav technology (otherwise, how could they have artificial gravity minus a carousel for their ships),

So? Each of the three settings has some form of limited artificial gravity or anti-gravity technology... that doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, since each individual series has a drastically different backstory and technical setting. It's one of the few things they have in common, though the levels of capability are rather different.

widespread hover technology (even in the hands of civilians), [...]

Again, so what? That's not exactly outside the reach of civilians TODAY. It's perfectly possible for a civilian to purchase a street-legal hovercar, even a multifuel one that can run on gasoline, diesel, or ethanol. The only real catch is that because there's no significant advantage to owning one over a conventional motor vehicle, due in part to government-imposed limits on their hover ability and safety standards, their sales have gone precisely nowhere.

beam weaponry and clamshell body armor for regular infantry, [...]

Let me correct you here... the regular infantry have laser weaponry and clamshell body armor. Southern Cross is a setting in which lasers are the most common form of energy weapon. They don't appear to possess particle beam gun technology on any significant scale, and even the Zor use laser weapons ("biolasers", as the dialogue has it) as their go-to multi-purpose, multi-scale energy weapon choice. As the official spec has it, the Spartas' weapons are ALL lasers, just of varying calibers.

As far as the utility of the Arming Doublet... its function is more ornamental than practical. Only the version issued to the Tactics Armored Space Corps and a few of the Tactics Corps' specialist teams is a sealed system, the common models are just entirely mundane (albeit Samurai-inspired) hard armor. They're not powered armor, and the standard model does not have any noteworthy survival systems... they're just perfectly ordinary, if individually tailored, suits of hard armor like the Riding Suits from MOSPEADA.

capability of overcoming the speed of light (or else they can break the laws of physics and create a wormhole/spacefold) and travel across space without it taking months/years.

Which is a relatively new innovation in the Southern Cross universe... and not an entirely reliable one, as the old liner notes for the series indicate. The "big reveal" that the show's creators never got to... er... reveal, was that the Zor are a breed of mutant/tainted/evolved humans who descended from one of the original missions to colonize the Proxima system, where Glorie is. The ancestors of the modern Zor were lost in time thanks to a problem with their FTL system, and landed on Glorie thousands of years in the past. They became the Zor we know from the series after thousands of years of being exposed to the protozor, and developing a new society independent of human culture.

MOSPEADA, of course, has anti-grav technology (otherwise, no artificial gravity without a carousel),

The artificial gravity technology in MOSPEADA is pretty limited stuff compared to Southern Cross, which is less sophisticated than that of Macross. The Horizont shuttles, for instance, appear to have minimal AG on their decks, hence the tendency of the crew to wander around on the ceiling from time to time.

clamshell body armor and beam weaponry for regular infantry [...]

You're closer this time... the Riding Suit used with the Ride Armors is reasonably serviceable body armor, though it was not actually designed to be body armor for regular infantry. Like the Arming Doublet, it is not actually a sealed space suit and offers no actual support functions to the wearer. It's JUST body armor.

Also, if we're talking about the OSM it's important to remember not to use "laser" and "beam" interchangeably. Those two terms are not used interchangeably in the source material. The usual convention in anime being that lasers are lasers and "beam weaponry" covers a multitude of more exotic options, the most mundane of which are your standard particle beam cannons. In the case of infantry, laser weapons are the standard... older models like the laser submachine gun (which is called the "Wolf" in the RT version), the SAL-9, FAL-2, etc. are all lasers of power not dissimilar to modern small arms. The Mars Gallant/H90 Laser Hound, the most modern laser rifle in the series, is still no little better than a modern rifle on the stopping power front... where it truly excels is in its ammunition. Compared to the earlier models, whose battery packs often didn't offer more ammunition than a comparably sized rifle magazine, the Laser Hound's e-cap magazines offer a big improvement at 48 shots per pistol magazine and a whopping 288 per rifle magazine. Particle beam weapons are, in that series, reserved exclusively for Ride Armors... and are a relatively recent development, with the first combat-operational versions being deployed as the 40mm pistol and 60mm rifle on the VR-052 series. Once again, where they really shine is ammo capacity, rather than stopping power. They're about the same as a modern anti-materiel rifle, but that tiny packs they're powered by hold far more than a comparably sized anti-materiel rifle's magazine ever could (30 discharges in the 60mm rifle's pack, and an impressive 120 discharges in the 40mm pistol's).

The existence of laser and particle beam weaponry does not automatically imply that those weapons are more powerful than good old fashioned bullets... they certainly offer other practical advantages, if the complexity and cost issues can be easily addressed (and apparently they are in the Southern Cross and MOSPEADA settings). In the case of both, their lasers and/or particle beam weapons aren't much more powerful than modern, conventional firearms. Indeed, in Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, the TLEAD foregoes particle beam weaponry in armo-bomber mode, opting instead for conventional 30mm rotary cannons and an assortment of laser weapons in armo-soldier mode. Apart from the VR-052s, the Legioss is the only other platform that uses particle beam weapons.

capability of crossing from Mars to Earth in a matter of days at most...yet its supposedly at the level of Gundam which doesn't have artificial gravity and travel between planets takes weeks or more.

Aaaaaaaaactually... you're operating on a bit of a false assumption here. The trip from Mars to Earth isn't a direct one, the troops and ships we see in the series are staging for each invasion attempt on the moon before making the relatively short hop to Earth. The ships in MOSPEADA aren't really designed to be operated as long-distance warships, they're analogous to short-ranged landing craft, in general terms. They're designed to ferry the maximum number of troops to the battle zones on Earth, rather than sustain a crew for long-term operations in space. The Horizonts are basically space versions of the Higgins boat, and the others are just larger transports. They're just making the short hop, skip, and a jump from the staging areas on Luna to Earth orbit.

(There's actually some interesting art of one of the lunar staging areas in MOSPEADA: Complete Art Works.)

I mean, truly, how could someone rationally come with some argument that twists things so badly?

I don't know, you tell me... you're the one twisting. Though, I doubt it was intentional... there are very few people who are in any position to say much of anything regarding Southern Cross, thanks to the scarcity of its publications.

I'm simply pointing out the facts as the original creators of these shows laid them out. Macross is on a whole different level from the other two, which are much closer to Gundam in terms of mecha combat capability and the like.

I mean, look at powerplant outputs on mecha as an example.

The AFC-01H/I Legioss armo-fighter, the latest and greatest that the Mars forces had to offer in 2083, has a HBT generator output of about 2.75MW total. Compare that to the VF-2SS Valkyrie II of Macross's DYRLverse, which was the latest and greatest fighter the UN Spacy had to offer in 2081 in that universe, had a combined generator output of 3,900MW.

That's 1,418x the power output of the Legioss' engines.

(Well, 1,418.2x, but I'll spot ya the 0.2).

If we were to, instead, compare the Legioss against humanity's first mass-production transformable fighter in Macross, obviously the VF-1A Valkyrie, it's still 1,300MW vs 2.75MW. That's still a factor of 427.7x. Hell, the VF-1 Valkyrie's coaxial laser gun(s) draw almost twice as much power per shot as the Legioss's combined HBT powerplant is capable of generating at maximum output... 5.0MW per cannon. That's considered almost embarrassingly light, by VF-mounted energy weaponry standards.

Let's compare the Legioss's humble 2.75MW generator output to a mobile suit from the Universal Century... I'll draw on the RX-78GP01 Gundam Zephyranthes as my example victim, because I happen to be going over the GP Master Archive. That mecha had a reactor output of a whopping 1.79MW. Its heaviest weapon was rated at only 1.5MW, though beam machine guns like what the Legioss is lugging generally rated lower than that per individual shot.

See what I'm talking about now?

[jaymz]

Well in a way you have "mdc" in the SDC games just not AS MDC.

For instance, in HU (and I believe Systems Failure does this as well for the Abrams and the Bradley....can't be 100% sure atm) a Tank is SDC (1200 or if memory serves) BUT it has a vehicle AR of 18 (like natural AR beat the AR and do damage, roll less and nada) and also has a listing for armour that says you need a PV of 8 or 9 to actually damage the tank at all. IIMN a .50 cal only has a PV of 7 so it won;t do jack regardless of beating the AR. This in effect, to me, would be the equivalent of "mdc" in the SDC worlds.

Now that THAT has been said...

As far as the Robotech is concerned...if one era is MDC then by default all eras would have to be. It doesn't make sense otherwise. HOWEVER....if one were to do the individual shows as separate settings/games....I can see a very valid argument that Macross could be MDC while SC and NG would be SDC....though using what I said above, all three could be SDC as well....if one were to put in the work on the mechanics to do so.


Let us also keep in mind that even as SDC a tank with 1200 SDC IS technically an MDC structure with 12.

[Seto Kaiba]

For instance, in HU (and I believe Systems Failure does this as well for the Abrams and the Bradley....can't be 100% sure atm) a Tank is SDC (1200 or if memory serves) BUT it has a vehicle AR of 18 (like natural AR beat the AR and do damage, roll less and nada) and also has a listing for armour that says you need a PV of 8 or 9 to actually damage the tank at all. IIMN a .50 cal only has a PV of 7 so it won;t do jack regardless of beating the AR. This in effect, to me, would be the equivalent of "mdc" in the SDC worlds.

Sounds like a GREAT fit for Gundam, MOSPEADA, and Southern Cross.

[Jefffar]

A collision between two armoured vehicles (and the Valkyrie and the Logan are both armoured) tends to produce some damage on one or both armoured vehicles.

A collision of an armoured vehicle into a building tends to produce little or no damage to the armoured vehicle and pretty heavy damage to the building unless that building also happens to be a bunker. Indeed I've seen video of a gentleman who used a turret-less Sherman tank for building demolition in the period shortly after WWII. He would drive the Sherman into the building, dive it around inside the building knocking out support pillars and let the building collapse on the Sherman. Then he would either drive the Sherman out from under the debris or wait until enough debris had been pulled off for him to exit the Sherman and recover it later. The building from the video I watched was a multistory factory btw.

[Seto Kaiba]

A collision between two armoured vehicles (and the Valkyrie and the Logan are both armoured) tends to produce some damage on one or both armoured vehicles.

True, but we see collisions between mecha with little or no evident damage in Macross fairly often... which is part and partial of my point that we're talking about super-tough materials either way, but on several different levels of super-tough. The relatively thin plate armor of a Spartas seems to be comparable in damage-resistance to a modern MBT (if not slightly better), while a Legioss is about on the same level if not slightly better, and a Valkyrie is canonically a heck of a lot tougher than that.

A collision of an armoured vehicle into a building tends to produce little or no damage to the armoured vehicle and pretty heavy damage to the building unless that building also happens to be a bunker.

Eh... they usually do that at relatively low speeds to avoid damaging the tank. You don't generally see an Abrams or any older tanks plowing headlong into buildings at full tilt (let alone speeds potentially greater than terminal velocity, as Hikaru was in a dive before his engines cut out and gravity did its trick). Yeah, you can plow tanks into buildings for demolition purpose, but it's gotta be done carefully to avoid damaging or stranding the tank. That's a lot different from an uncontrolled plunge into a row of reinforced concrete buildings and coming out the other side without a scratch on you.

[Colonel Wolfe]

A collision between two armoured vehicles (and the Valkyrie and the Logan are both armoured) tends to produce some damage on one or both armoured vehicles.

A collision of an armoured vehicle into a building tends to produce little or no damage to the armoured vehicle and pretty heavy damage to the building unless that building also happens to be a bunker. Indeed I've seen video of a gentleman who used a turret-less Sherman tank for building demolition in the period shortly after WWII. He would drive the Sherman into the building, dive it around inside the building knocking out support pillars and let the building collapse on the Sherman. Then he would either drive the Sherman out from under the debris or wait until enough debris had been pulled off for him to exit the Sherman and recover it later. The building from the video I watched was a multistory factory btw.

Looking over some info on web, and looking to figure the Velocity of a VF or Logan in an Uncontrolled Dive in their configurations in the show... the Terminal Velocity of the VF-1 in Guardian mode in a break-less dive would be between 85 and 100 mph... comparable to the Speed of a Human in a similar fall that about 120mph.
Verses the break-less terminal velocity of a Logan in a free fall in the range of 500-800 MPH...
I have Friends who are in the Army today who say they drive their Abrams into building at full speed... even concrete buildings with no real damage to the tank...
The civilian Buildings the Vf-1 crashes into are obviously an SDC concrete since the VF-1 is able to survive with no damage... if it had been and MDC building... this would be the pictures from the show.
the Spartas Catching the Logan would suffer some damage as the Logan's Terminal velocity in a brakeless dive is much higher than an unaerodynamic battiloid or guardian mode...

[ShadowLogan]

But all of those are readily explainable as being the exact same sort of supermaterials that the VF-1 itself is made from... to say nothing of Britai's CONSIDERABLE strength above and beyond the Zentradi norm.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. And Breetai is certainly not hitting Ben's VF-1 head with the same kinetic energy the Logan does when it hits the VHT, and that is assuming nothing more than the kinetic energy both acquire during a fall of x-seconds and their mass.

Lets see, RT.com infopedia mass (dry, no pilot/external weapon/clothes) for Breetai, the Logan, and the VF-1. Basing free fall time on elapsed per player time codes (I went to nearest second), and assuming these falls are real time (and not overlaping in some way) and all under Earth normal gravity (9.8m/s/s). And ignoring air resistance. And calculating the kinetic energy as KE = 1/2 *m*v^2 (where V is Vf=A*t+vi):
Breetai falls for ~3seconds in Ep10, for 7,239,015J
Logan falls for ~10seconds* in Ep46, for 31,213,000J
VF-1 falls for ~3seconds* in Ep01, for 5,747,994J (using the 2E RPG mass it's 6,482,700J)

*Neither craft really starts form zero velocity like Breetai, so the Kinetic Energy values involved are higher. Technically the VF-1 falls additional time through the buildings (~7sec), and from the dive in F (~45sec), this is only considering the time for Guardian free-fall before it strikes a building. The Logan is the time frame between collisions with the Bioroid and VHT.

As much as I'd like to add the kick by the MPA in Ep31, I'm not entirely sure how to calculate KE of a kick at this time (I doubt the MPA's full mass is to be considered).

And as Jaymz points out within the SDC rules, it is possible to arrive at MDC results without being MDC.

For instance, in HU (and I believe Systems Failure does this as well for the Abrams and the Bradley....can't be 100% sure atm) a Tank is SDC (1200 or if memory serves) BUT it has a vehicle AR of 18 (like natural AR beat the AR and do damage, roll less and nada) and also has a listing for armour that says you need a PV of 8 or 9 to actually damage the tank at all. IIMN a .50 cal only has a PV of 7 so it won;t do jack regardless of beating the AR. This in effect, to me, would be the equivalent of "mdc" in the SDC worlds.

I have the HU2E main rpg (only), it has AR stuff, and mentions PV in places but doesn't fully explain it out (what little is in the main book, suggests it lowers AR, nothing about PV vs PV). Any suggestions on lines/books with full description of PV.

[jaymz]

I have the HU2E main rpg (only), it has AR stuff, and mentions PV in places but doesn't fully explain it out (what little is in the main book, suggests it lowers AR, nothing about PV vs PV). Any suggestions on lines/books with full description of PV.

I should have been more specific, HU revised did it, then I think HU2 GM Guide has that stuff too.....Also the Modern Weapons Compendium IIRC has the info on PV etc.

[Seto Kaiba]

in the tatsunoko verse, After Calvary, came Orguss, which is Also a part of the Super dimensional series, And then Orgus II

Um... two (brief) corrections here. Well, maybe three. It depends on how you want to split it.

First, for all practical intents and purposes there is no "Tatsunoko 'verse".

It's a common enough error though, to assume that the "Super Dimension trilogy" shows belonged to a common setting or multiverse ala Slayers and Lost Universe, or Record of Lodoss War and Louie the Rune Soldier. Truthfully, the three shows share no direct connection in terms of a setting or story. The only connections they really share are in terms of the staff... Big West was the sponsor of all three, but no studio worked on more than two of them.

Macross and Orguss, for instance, were created by Studio Nue and Artland, but Tatsunoko created Southern Cross. Another good example would be how Tatsunoko animated Southern Cross, and were one of several studios engaged in the animation of Macross, but had no role whatsoever in the production of Orguss, which was animated by TMS Entertainment instead. It also extended to voice actors... like how Sho Hayami did work on Macross and Orguss, while Mika Doi worked on Macross and Southern Cross (and also, amusingly, MOSPEADA).


Second, you got the order wrong. The first series to come out was Macross in 1982, and Studio Nue slipped a few in-joke references to their other works from the period (such as the Zentradi ship with the skull prow, a homage to their redesign of Captain Harlock's ship) and a sneak peek at an important mecha for their next project... a pseudo-Orguss that briefly appears in episode 27.

Next in the trilogy was Orguss, which debuted just a couple days after Macross finished its first run on TV in Japan. Orguss didn't do quite a well as Macross did, but it was fairly well received and did OK in ratings. It left enough of an impression that Big West felt it was necessary to commemorate the show's tenth anniversary with the Orguss II OVA.

The third and final installment in the "trilogy" was Southern Cross, which started airing a week or thereabouts after the final episode of Orguss aired. Unlike its elder siblings, Southern Cross was developed almost entirely in-house by Tatsunoko Pro., with the only external studio involvement being Ammonite's mechanical designs, instead of being developed by Studio Nue and Artland like both previous titles were. The series was not well-received for a variety of reasons, and ultimately ended prematurely after its low ratings convinced the studio to pull the plug on the show... reducing its run almost by half, from 39 episodes to 23, but allowing the staff to hastily wrap the show up as best it could.

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

lolwut?

Seriously, man... we see pretty definitive proof that Britai is a freaking tank (metaphorically), and he's the one who delivers the line about how he's tougher than the average Zentradi. It's kind of hard to argue with him on that, since he delivers said line after being tossed into space unprotected, walking back to the nearest airlock unprotected and in hard vacuum, and proceeding to lay a no-holds-barred beatdown on several of the best pilots in the Macross's crew that culminated with him tossing around 13.25 tonnes of robot like a ragdoll, tearing armor canonically many times stronger than the armor on modern MBTs with his bare hands, and surviving having a VF-1 blow up in his face with little more to show for it than some soot on his lovely brown tabard and the touching concern of a subordinate who clearly doesn't understand that Britai's man enough to deserve having both a Macross-class SDF and the capital city of an entire colony world named for him.

And Breetai is certainly not hitting Ben's VF-1 head with the same kinetic energy the Logan does when it hits the VHT, and that is assuming nothing more than the kinetic energy both acquire during a fall of x-seconds and their mass.

I dunno 'bout that, man... Marie could only have been falling from a couple hundred meters tops given the animation, and that lovely spin probably did a fair bit to slow her down even further than she was already in her pursuit of that Biover. Britai's got considerably more mass to him than the Logan does (weighing in at a hefty 16.75 tonnes himself), and he's also SWINGING that pipe. Force equals mass times acceleration, and though Britai's certainly falling as far, he's bringing a LOT more mass to the party, and that swing is adding to the acceleration of the pipe.

Your math is well-executed, but based on the mistaken assumption that Marie was falling straight down... she was spinning and in a slow, mostly horizontal descent. Britai went STRAIGHT down by (artificial) gravity and he came out swinging.

And as Jaymz points out within the SDC rules, it is possible to arrive at MDC results without being MDC.

Indeed, and that's what I think is probably the most reasonable solution for the mecha belonging to the Southern Cross and MOSPEADA settings. Well, the robots anyway. The body armor wasn't ever anything resembling MDC in the originals.

Mind you, on the grounds of explicit comparison, I would also extend that same SDC treatment to the VF-0 and SV-51, as their armor is said to be comparable or slightly superior to that of a modern MBT's heaviest. The reason the same wouldn't go for the later designs is that maximum armor strength on a VF from Macross's prime continuity isn't just the material strength... it's reinforced by the energy conversion armor, which left the VF-1's already superior materials reinforced to a level far beyond the armor of a modern MBT. The problem is, energy weapons in Macross are so absolutely off the proverbial hook that that same ridiculously tough armor proved to be barely adequate.

[ShadowLogan]

I should have been more specific, HU revised did it, then I think HU2 GM Guide has that stuff too.....Also the Modern Weapons Compendium IIRC has the info on PV etc

Okay, that explains the HU thing. I don't have the GM Guide, but I know someone with the Modern Weapons Compedium I'll check there.

Seriously, man... we see pretty definitive proof that Britai is a freaking tank (metaphorically), and he's the one who delivers the line about how he's tougher than the average Zentradi.

That Breetai is strong and built I do not dispute, it's the durability of the VF-1 armor I don't buy. Just the kinetic energy from his fall (not even counting the swinging of the pipe) packs a punch that is on par with the VF-1 falling for 3 seconds before smashing into some buildings (a fall for any longer and the VF-1 would actually have more KE).

Your math is well-executed, but based on the mistaken assumption that Marie was falling straight down... she was spinning and in a slow, mostly horizontal descent. Britai went STRAIGHT down by (artificial) gravity and he came out swinging.

I agree there are some issues that could be straightened out for better results, but Marine's engines may or may not have still been active in a propulsive role (same holds for Rick), which complicates things. The slope would also effect the acceleration of gravity encountered (VF-1 and Logan both), though there is no easy way to determine the slope with reliability IMHO. I suppose it would be possible to estimate the velocity just before the 2nd impact using time codes and known sizes for the Logan...

In any case the Logan may be light, but even if it is traveling at just 1kph at the moment of impact it is going to have 4.212E+16 Joules of Energy (3.121E+07 was based on nothing more than gravity, and Breetai and the VF-1 are at E+06 range from nothing more than gravity), a VF-1 is just over 2x the energy. Breetai may be strong, but I doubt he can raise the kinetic energy involved that much from Exponent 6 level to 16. Basically while there are a variety of ways to look at the collisions, Breetai's involvement is more "low speed" than than the other two, and the VF-1 armor doesn't stand up so well.

It might be interesting to see how much KE was involved with Breetai flining the VF-1J into that wall of spikes. Since the wall, and spikes didn't crumble like the building walls, it would be a better comparison to the Logan/VHT interaction...

Indeed, and that's what I think is probably the most reasonable solution for the mecha belonging to the Southern Cross and MOSPEADA settings. Well, the robots anyway. The body armor wasn't ever anything resembling MDC in the originals.

It would also work for SDF: Macross with the effect of really high NATURAL AR and/or PV. If one isn't using the PV aspect, it can get dicy.

[jaymz]

It would also work for SDF: Macross with the effect of really high NATURAL AR and/or PV. If one isn't using the PV aspect, it can get dicy.

Actually it is easy enough to fix. Just specify exactly the damage that can be taken and ignored by round type.

Armour stops up to and including the equivalent of standard 30mm rounds (in my games anything that is 2d6+3md is flat out ignored in this manner) this would include an impact that would cause up to and including 15mdc.

What is the calculation for damage from a fall in an MDC vehicle?

[ShadowLogan]

It would also work for SDF: Macross with the effect of really high NATURAL AR and/or PV. If one isn't using the PV aspect, it can get dicy.

Actually it is easy enough to fix. Just specify exactly the damage that can be taken and ignored by round type.

Armour stops up to and including the equivalent of standard 30mm rounds (in my games anything that is 2d6+3md is flat out ignored in this manner) this would include an impact that would cause up to and including 15mdc.

What is the calculation for damage from a fall in an MDC vehicle?

Is not that basically what PV does though?

As for the damage/fall:
Depends where you look and what you have in mind. These are in the Manga TSC Main RPG (and can be found in RUE to)

Pg229m lists 1D6 per 10ft/3m, Collision is 2d4 per 10mph/16kph (one could also consider it an MDC vehicle a large object on this table for falling, so mass AND distance are factors, ex this approach a 6.5ton Logan would do ~430d6 ((or 43d6x10)) straight +10per 40ft/12.2m, that's ~430-2580SDC+100per400ft or 4-25MD +1per400ft). The damage is SDC, but for every 10 increments (100ft or 100mph What Ever the Case May Be), it could be seen as doing MD.

Pg230 lists 1D6MD +1D6MD per 30mph/48kph for a body block/ram (which could be characterized as a fall), and is the damage form being struck by a MDC vehicle/mecha..

[jaymz]

Well if you go by the 2d4 per 10 and that's SDC then you'd need to be doing 1000mph to do 2d4md. I don;t see a problem with what I suggested.

[Lt Gargoyle]

As long as the gm is consitant with the rules he or she is using I'm good with it.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Hmmm...looks like SDF Macross and its UnderwhelmingTechnology doesn't keep a Valkyrie from being mangled upon impact.

Warning: I've already spoken in this thread about trolling based on series.

[Seto Kaiba]

That Breetai is strong and built I do not dispute, it's the durability of the VF-1 armor I don't buy. Just the kinetic energy from his fall (not even counting the swinging of the pipe) packs a punch that is on par with the VF-1 falling for 3 seconds before smashing into some buildings (a fall for any longer and the VF-1 would actually have more KE).

Personally, I'd have to go with the evidence of the series over any disbelief, because it's shown to us point-blank that the VF-1 is both so ridiculously tough that it can crash into rows of buildings while it transforms (at which point it is MOST vulnerable) with its armor powered down due to a failure in the engines, and perform all manner of acrobatics like shoulder rolls and somersaults, or even resort to a good old fashioned bout of fisticuffs with Zentradi with either no damage or only cosmetic damage in most cases.

(Obviously not all cases, because Britai does manage to beat one up in close combat using his insane over-the-top strength, and we do see some take damage in brawls where the thing hitting them is an object or limb that is also made out of OTM supermaterials and is delivered with considerable force...)

I agree there are some issues that could be straightened out for better results, but Marine's engines may or may not have still been active in a propulsive role (same holds for Rick), which complicates things.

Based on a good ol' walkthrough of the animation, Hikaru's engines weren't running at the time of the crash... they only came back online after the transformation finished at the end of it all. (Remember, transforming was what Misa told him to do to get engine power back.) Marie seems to have had the presence of mind to shut her engines down when she lost control, as they don't appear to be active after she loses control.

Indeed, and that's what I think is probably the most reasonable solution for the mecha belonging to the Southern Cross and MOSPEADA settings. Well, the robots anyway. The body armor wasn't ever anything resembling MDC in the originals.

It would also work for SDF: Macross with the effect of really high NATURAL AR and/or PV. If one isn't using the PV aspect, it can get dicy.[/quote]
That might work depending on how you want to get into doing the mechanics for energy conversion armor within the constraints of the original series... but I don't think it would fit well with most of the later titles (Zero being the obvious exception as noted before), because there are improvements made to armor and engine performance and so on that are on an orders-of-magnitude level. Then it's principally a matter of weaponry, when you stop to consider that the initial generation of gun pods in the series are putting out (per the numbers in Master File) something to the tune of 10x the stopping power of the GAU-8/A (a round about twice the diameter moving downrange almost exactly twice as fast), and it (mostly) goes up from there.

EDIT: Master File does not supply a mass for the rounds directly, but the early-issue VF-1 ammo was, based on the description, more or less equivalent to PGU-14/B scaled up from 30mm to 55mm. Later ammunition had improved OT-derived AP performance, such as the HEACA and HEACA-ESA rounds in common use during most of Space War 1 and after.

[ShadowLogan]

Well if you go by the 2d4 per 10 and that's SDC then you'd need to be doing 1000mph to do 2d4md. I don;t see a problem with what I suggested.

Its more a point of view thing, but I don't think I would use the stuff on pg229m if MDC is involved in a crash, I would treat it as a body block/ram from an MDC object into an MDC object (unless one party can't use MDC short-hand), so the rules on pg230m make more sense to me in those situations.

And these rules really don't seem to form the basis for assigning any projectile weapon damages. IF it was, the M-16's 948m/s muzzle velocity would translate into doing 426d4 (948m/s is 3412kph, so divide that by 16kph is ~213 increments of 2d4) AND not the 4-5D6 palladium usually stats the 5.56mm rifle round as. That means an M16 round should do ~1d4MD (reducing 426d4 to 1d4x100 or 1d4MD), but doesn't.

Personally, I'd have to go with the evidence of the series over any disbelief, because it's shown to us point-blank that the VF-1 is both so ridiculously tough that it can crash into rows of buildings while it transforms (at which point it is MOST vulnerable) with its armor powered down due to a failure in the engines, and perform all manner of acrobatics like shoulder rolls and somersaults, or even resort to a good old fashioned bout of fisticuffs with Zentradi with either no damage or only cosmetic damage in most cases.

Smashing through civilian buildings though is not the same as smashing into an interior wall of a starship (and not all walls are built equal as Max has different results than Rick, never mind Rand and the Beta) or an armored vehicle. While the majority of VT-1D and Logan/VHT interactions are similar in situation, the key difference though is that the VHT is not going to respond the same way as a building due to the impact.

While we don't see the Logan engage in melee actions, other mecha do engage in melee combat in the other eras. So if the criteria is for melee combat to equate to MDC level technology, then all 3 eras are shown to have MDC technology. The fisticuffs though gets into PV or AR or material (hits not high/strong enough to actually damage), and the acrobatics are similar since the pilot could be seen as managing damage (via Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact or Pull Punch) within the game rules since they likely know how to execute these maneuvers w/o undue damage.

Based on a good ol' walkthrough of the animation, Hikaru's engines weren't running at the time of the crash... they only came back online after the transformation finished at the end of it all. (Remember, transforming was what Misa told him to do to get engine power back.) Marie seems to have had the presence of mind to shut her engines down when she lost control, as they don't appear to be active after she loses control.

This I'm not sure of for either player. It isn't always obvious if an engine is running or not as the Alpha shows in NG when it appears to be using either 2 or 4 engines (and the two engine setup seem to switch depending on ep).

That might work depending on how you want to get into doing the mechanics for energy conversion armor within the constraints of the original series... but I don't think it would fit well with most of the later titles (Zero being the obvious exception as noted before), because there are improvements made to armor and engine performance and so on that are on an orders-of-magnitude level. Then it's principally a matter of weaponry, when you stop to consider that the initial generation of gun pods in the series are putting out (per the numbers in Master File) something to the tune of 10x the stopping power of the GAU-8/A (a round about twice the diameter moving downrange almost exactly twice as fast), and it (mostly) goes up from there.

I'd think the ECA would be treated as a force field, with its own PV, AR, and SDC values (any combination of the 3). Mechanically it would be simpler to execute and does have some precedent from other lines in a variety of forms, though may not be 100% faithful to the source material.

As the above example shows with the M-16 and Palladium's own rules for collision, game mechanic damage is not necessarily related to actual performance (since a bullet would do damage by collision). Even a sampling of the weapons in 2E RPG based on size, shows that game mechanic damage is not always done in a linear fashion (compare the Monster's 40cm cannon to the VHT's 10.5cm cannon, damage is not x4 better, more like 1 extra die, or the HRG-70 single round to M-225, nearly x3 the size but the same individual damage, burst size/ is different, or the GU-11 and M-996, once adjusted for burst size has the smaller round doing more damage than the bigger, even beam weapons can be shown to suffer in this area).

[jaymz]

Well if you go by the 2d4 per 10 and that's SDC then you'd need to be doing 1000mph to do 2d4md. I don;t see a problem with what I suggested.

Its more a point of view thing, but I don't think I would use the stuff on pg229m if MDC is involved in a crash, I would treat it as a body block/ram from an MDC object into an MDC object (unless one party can't use MDC short-hand), so the rules on pg230m make more sense to me in those situations.

Most mecha have a body block/tackle damage listed in their write ups though .... and generally they do not do very much damage either. 2d6 maybe on average? On a unit that has 300+, that is minor at most.

Making it simpler is good. Making it more complicated and over thought is not.

[ShadowLogan]

Well if you go by the 2d4 per 10 and that's SDC then you'd need to be doing 1000mph to do 2d4md. I don;t see a problem with what I suggested.

Its more a point of view thing, but I don't think I would use the stuff on pg229m if MDC is involved in a crash, I would treat it as a body block/ram from an MDC object into an MDC object (unless one party can't use MDC short-hand), so the rules on pg230m make more sense to me in those situations.

Most mecha have a body block/tackle damage listed in their write ups though .... and generally they do not do very much damage either. 2d6 maybe on average? On a unit that has 300+, that is minor at most.

Making it simpler is good. Making it more complicated and over thought is not.

While most mecha do have a body block/tackle damage in the write-ups it tends to fluctuate between a flat damage of XdY up to a certain speed (if it is even noted), but then there are also examples that list it similar to on pg229 as XdY damage per speed increments. I'm not sure which is more prevalent now (1E it was uniform) in 2E, but there are numerous examples of the variable format (ASC mecha, UEDF Mecha, less so for the UEEF, and I didn't look at the four alien blocks)

That is also the damage they do to another object, in this case I am using the generic rules to establish damage and operating under the assumption that the planet/building (whatever) is the one doing the body block on them.

[jaymz]

Still...simple is good. Overthought is not.

Palladium's rules as they are is hard enough for most people to deal with

[Seto Kaiba]

While we don't see the Logan engage in melee actions, other mecha do engage in melee combat in the other eras. So if the criteria is for melee combat to equate to MDC level technology, then all 3 eras are shown to have MDC technology.

It isn't... so we can pass over that. Like everything else, there's the looming problem of scale in terms of the actual power a mecha can bring to bear.

I'd think the ECA would be treated as a force field, with its own PV, AR, and SDC values (any combination of the 3). Mechanically it would be simpler to execute and does have some precedent from other lines in a variety of forms, though may not be 100% faithful to the source material.

Personally, I've always felt that the easiest way to do it is to divide incoming damage... since MDC is system health in addition to structural integrity. I'd think we would want to save force fields for the later designs which actually HAVE energy shielding.

[ShadowLogan]

Still...simple is good. Overthought is not.

Palladium's rules as they are is hard enough for most people to deal with

Agree one should keep it simple, but there are different types of simple. By your reckoning 30mm weapon resistant should also stop most melee attacks, it also raises the question of would bursts still penetrate, etc.

Also I don't really think of Palladium's rules as hard or complicated (I'm familiar with AD&D 2E, that was complicated, I also find D20 to be similar). What I do find is that their organization leaves much to be desired (more so now I think), but that is a different matter.

Like everything else, there's the looming problem of scale in terms of the actual power a mecha can bring to bear.

The issue of scale though seems to be built into the system itself though.

Personally, I've always felt that the easiest way to do it is to divide incoming damage... since MDC is system health in addition to structural integrity. I'd think we would want to save force fields for the later designs which actually HAVE energy shielding.

Easiest way (in SDC) would be to raise the NATURAL AR (and/or Penetration Value). For MDC settings, that might work to divide incoming damage, but Palladium does have examples in other lines that function more like a force field than a damage reduction and conceptually work similar to ECA (APS super powers, along with Psi-Summon Inner Strength).

[Seto Kaiba]

Like everything else, there's the looming problem of scale in terms of the actual power a mecha can bring to bear.

The issue of scale though seems to be built into the system itself though.

Arguably so... though I do think that can (and should) be corrected. But, then again, I tend to favor a game that very accurately reflects the substance of the setting it's based upon.

Easiest way (in SDC) would be to raise the NATURAL AR (and/or Penetration Value). For MDC settings, that might work to divide incoming damage, but Palladium does have examples in other lines that function more like a force field than a damage reduction and conceptually work similar to ECA (APS super powers, along with Psi-Summon Inner Strength).

One of the reasons I think that using a division of incoming damage mechanic would work best for the energy conversion armor is because there are other defensive measures used by VFs, even early VFs, that do offer additional protection on top of that expansion of armor potential. Once you get past 0 Generation (the VF-0 and SV-51), you basically have a VF that can cheerfully ignore most, if not all, modern ammunition being flung at it just on the basis of its armor alone... and then you've got other mechanisms like ablative anti-beam coatings, explosive- and non-explosive reactive armor, and, a bit further afield, fighters toting layered energy conversion armor and dimensional distortion barriers that can block fire from capital ship-grade beam weaponry.

(It gets a bit off the hook here... and I'll admit I have NO idea how to even begin to address the very latest additions like the fold dimensional resonance system on the YF-30 Chronos.)

[ShadowLogan]

One of the reasons I think that using a division of incoming damage mechanic would work best for the energy conversion armor is because there are other defensive measures used by VFs, even early VFs, that do offer additional protection on top of that expansion of armor potential. Once you get past 0 Generation (the VF-0 and SV-51), you basically have a VF that can cheerfully ignore most, if not all, modern ammunition being flung at it just on the basis of its armor alone... and then you've got other mechanisms like ablative anti-beam coatings, explosive- and non-explosive reactive armor, and, a bit further afield, fighters toting layered energy conversion armor and dimensional distortion barriers that can block fire from capital ship-grade beam weaponry.

Adding protective S/MDC really works out the same as having divisible damage though, without the additional processing step.

But, then again, I tend to favor a game that very accurately reflects the substance of the setting it's based upon.

Nothing wrong with that, but some times adjustments for playability are necessary that differ from a 100% accurate world (at least from the game mechanic perspective).

[Seto Kaiba]

Adding protective S/MDC really works out the same as having divisible damage though, without the additional processing step.

Eh... it depends on which layers of protection you're talking about. If it's bullets or missiles, then you've only got to worry about the energy conversion armor (though I find it's more realistic if the missiles work with a flat rolled damage value and the gunpods get a multiplier to reflect their specialized AP rounds for anti-ECA work), but if it's a laser or particle beam weapon then you're shaving a percentage off the top already to reflect the anti-beam coating. That's something like 30% off the top for a beam machinegun grade weapon (approx. 5-12MW class) against a 4th Gen or later VF.

Nothing wrong with that, but some times adjustments for playability are necessary that differ from a 100% accurate world (at least from the game mechanic perspective).

True, but in this case there's less adjustment that's flat-out necessary than you'd think...