Rifts Nations Air Defences

[flatline]

Well the things is while you can take out the post's radar you will still likely have to defend against the posts troops, of which willbe at least a couple of Sams liekly which can cover a portion of the gap....not to mention if they are smart (which is possible that they are not since this is the CS we are talking about) but typically radar posts overlap on all sides and sometimes significantly. The gap may be ther but it may not be very big and in teh meantime the likely response would be increase airt patrol by CS aircraft, and I'm not talking Sams but Nightwings and Talons with what should be better radar systems

If the radar is easy to knock out, then it's possible to get in, knock out the radar, and get out before serious resistance is organized against you.

And when you speak of overlap, unless there's a post every 6 miles or so, that overlap is only meaningful at higher altitudes. If your army of air elementals is flying 30 feet off the ground, they'll be well beneath any overlapping coverage.

Of course, to calculate the coverage, we'd need to know how far apart the posts are and how tall their radar is. Naturally, we don't have any of that information.

--flatline

[jaymz]

Well robot system are 40 miles and do not specify air or ground so we cannot assume they are less than 40. A radar tower would take care of that issue anyway. I think it would be ratehr cheap for them to have a radar post every 30 miles. giving you a 20 mile "gap" in coverage if you take one out....THAT can be easily covered by any defending Samas until a replacement or robote vehicle can be brought in as a stop gap measure.

[Kagashi]

Well robot system are 40 miles and do not specify air or ground so we cannot assume they are less than 40. A radar tower would take care of that issue anyway. I think it would be ratehr cheap for them to have a radar post every 30 miles. giving you a 20 mile "gap" in coverage if you take one out....THAT can be easily covered by any defending Samas until a replacement or robote vehicle can be brought in as a stop gap measure.

Assuming the bots/samas are even in the network architecture of the radar systems. Or if the radar systems are even linked at all.

Is it WWII Battle of Britain style (Ala, a radar station gets a hit, then reports it to a central hub via landline/radio and the hub pushes pieces around with a long stick or writes on a grease board for leadership to see)? Or is it more advanced than that? Perhaps they utilized laser communications (there is a skill for that after all) and share each radar station's data with one another on a giant map of the CS? Are the bots covering the gaps able to interface with this system? For a nation capable of making AI skelebots and hand held small arms capable of destroying modern tanks with one shot, I would think they would have the capabilities to utilize a data link system of some kind (machine-to-machine sharing of information via landline, radio, or laser communication).

Using a previous example, I think somebody cited the CS could detect 100 miles out, so seeing that ground based radar of the day only goes out to 40 miles per individual radar, there has to be some sort of centralized network, we just dont know how complex it is. Only then would we be able to determine how to take out the coverage.

[Commander]

You know the one thing i have not seen in any of the World books including NGR or CS(i still need to get a look at that one.) Or the Sourcebooks is Towed Weapons. I mean i just had a brainstorm. Allot of CS vehicles or NGR use wheel or hover. So imagine if you will that the NGR working with Free Quebec were able to come up with a sellable CS product.

So you do not see allot of towed artillery or radar stations. Meaning it would be the size of a Large Crate we could call them Pods. Each pod comes separately yet would be fixed deployable Radar, Laser AAA or Missile Batteries. Meaning the Radar site could be linked to the other Pods allowing two anti-aircraft, Long range missile pod to fire all connected to a Radar pod. Easy to replace and since most of the weapons will be laser based it would mean long range accuracy and never running out of Ammo.

This kind of System could be used in the rear or near the front where LZ points or critical places where bots or power armor would be fixed to that position. This system would be used away from such areas where local base defences or other coverage is weak or unavailable. Heck they could have other Pods also using artillery. This would free up front line combat units to engage with out worrying about some dragon or menace getting past the "Picket" they set up.

Also i know CS book has maps of CS bases but i am unsure if the Air defences would be small vans out into the woods to full pods and towers like something off a missile frigate with weapons that could be used also for some ground defence. Hard to say but if i can do some research i could get back to you with an Ad hoc non-official Air defence bases with networks that would probably be three types of bases even the pod idea. Heck it could be the one last thing That CS Quebec did before becoming Free Quebec during the Tolkeen war.

Also some one could plant a EMP device that would not blow it up but would take down the radar. The operators might think it was a malfunction or you could hit it with a virus if you have a man on the inside who slips it in when no one is looking. Or if you take out the power source that they use that could really hurt air defences. Another idea is to bomb the area with a one shot EMP drone or missile cruise or not that could affect bots or radar installations making them vulnerable.

Man i have allot of ideas but i hope they are coming in clear ? Sorry my dad was Air Force 22 years so i spent some time understanding jets ect ect. Also i get what you guys are saying above or gals if there was one. It depends on the networking. Such as Britain, American ect as each has a set up that works for them.

But i have an idea see what you guys think of what i mentioned here since CS would need stopgap measures or back ups.

Two Cs soldiers hooked up the Radar Pod to the Skull Patrol Car as the Pod was a giant crate 20 ft x 20 ft hovering off the ground guided to the latch that clicked as both men secured the hover platform to the hover car. Both got in as the driver looked at his buddy." Lets get this to LT. Colonel Sheffield so he does not give us latrine duty so he can have his portable command center while observing the magic zone." The other CS soldier sighed."Yes since we might be moving yet again. I wish we could stay in one spot. Instead we observe with the other pods. I do not like the idea of being so close to ley lines." Driver nodded." You said it Bill. So this with the other two pods will allow us to not feel so unprotected even with Skelebots or the SAMAS buzzing around. This radar and the Anti-Aircraft pods will give us aircover at least" Driver zoomed away with the Pod as it swayed so often from a strong breeze but the towed had been double checked so if they had to make some hard maneuvers it would not snap off the back of the Skull Patrol Car. Both soldiers sat in silence as they drove off to the destination they were given.

[jaymz]

Well robot system are 40 miles and do not specify air or ground so we cannot assume they are less than 40. A radar tower would take care of that issue anyway. I think it would be ratehr cheap for them to have a radar post every 30 miles. giving you a 20 mile "gap" in coverage if you take one out....THAT can be easily covered by any defending Samas until a replacement or robote vehicle can be brought in as a stop gap measure.

Assuming the bots/samas are even in the network architecture of the radar systems. Or if the radar systems are even linked at all.

Is it WWII Battle of Britain style (Ala, a radar station gets a hit, then reports it to a central hub via landline/radio and the hub pushes pieces around with a long stick or writes on a grease board for leadership to see)? Or is it more advanced than that? Perhaps they utilized laser communications (there is a skill for that after all) and share each radar station's data with one another on a giant map of the CS? Are the bots covering the gaps able to interface with this system? For a nation capable of making AI skelebots and hand held small arms capable of destroying modern tanks with one shot, I would think they would have the capabilities to utilize a data link system of some kind (machine-to-machine sharing of information via landline, radio, or laser communication).

Using a previous example, I think somebody cited the CS could detect 100 miles out, so seeing that ground based radar of the day only goes out to 40 miles per individual radar, there has to be some sort of centralized network, we just dont know how complex it is. Only then would we be able to determine how to take out the coverage.

There was a reason I said the Sams would be a stop gap. IE they would fill the open gap as well as they could until a larger unit could be deployed to do a more secure/permanent job. They may to may not be tied into the network directly but they would have communications. They would be able to covert a large enough area to fill most of the whole in with their own radar systems as well. That s the time you would need to try and sneak through. Once you bring a bigger unit like a Mk IV or more likely a Deaths Head, you essentially close that gap. That would give you an hour or so tops is my estimate as they would scramble a ready unit to do so. Why? Because I have no doubt the CS has had to deal with this since any radar post were erected. They've been at this for a century guys. These would not be new ideas to their enemies.

[Kagashi]

Now that you mention Deaths Head..wasn't there a Rifter surveillance variant? I could easily see that filling the role of a gap filler, and even one that could project power over non-established zones that were not in the network (like Tolkeen) much like modern AWACs are used.

Perhaps I should simply write an "Electronic Warfare in Rifts" Rifter article. Thats one of the reasons why I like the new Robotech books so much, because of the emphasis on electronic attack (jamming) and data links ("command" variant mecha). Not entirely too realistic mind you, but at least there are quantifiable game mechanics now involved beyond the old ambiguous Radio: Scramblers skill, something the Rifts books lack.

The article should cover radar, jamming, data links, and such as well as rolling the Robotech like rules into existing pieces of Rifts equipment. Perhaps even throw in things like SAMAS hand held jamming pods in place of the rail gun.

[jaymz]

The rifter only had the Gunship variant of the Deaths Head....but an Awacs version certainly would not be a stretch by any means. Not sure they;d make it a priority since their primary opponents are not overly tech based but still a useful idea to have kicking around

[Commander]

I would welcome any Rifter on the subject but i was hoping that Towed Artillery would make it in. WWII had Howitzers to Flack guns. CS could also have this Pod idea where it is the size of a small house that networks to others pods even feeds ground or air units radar coordinates.

Thus could act as a deployable two or three man system with pods that could do artillery, MIRV, ECM, Anti-Aircraft, or Radar to link it all. It would need to be mobile but some of the systems might resemble bots like the Anti-Aircraft pod as it will instead of having arms will have two laser gatlings with missile's connected to the Radar/command pod.

While they can be moved they cannot move on there own power thus allowing them to be deployed as needed. Be three to five pods depending on its duty's. It would free up other units and allow the CS to close defence gaps or coordinate defences in case things get real bad.

I was going to come up with air defence bases that would be mostly underground. All that would be visible would be the missiles. Perimeter wall with some gatling or laser defences for anti-personnel or anti-missile. Automated towers that would be a combination Anti-air or Vehicle.

With the larger base having a missile "Belt" a circle of Anti-air defences looking like curved walls going around a circle of the High Powered Radar. As most of the base would be underground and linked into the defense net


Medium base would use a "Crescent" instead of a Circle a half circle.

The Small base would use the Square as listed above with towers.

Also it would not hurt to look at how NGR or Northern Gun ect have air defences. I mean the fact that no one has made towed flack guns or anti air launchers means some company or person would come in.(Not Chipwell.) Making towed artillery. Sure its fixed but having it to hold the line or an area would give the other side the ability to not have bots or power armor or its mechanized troops on the defence.

Towed artillery has been around since modern wars started when horses were hooked up to cannons then formed into artillery batteries.
So could you imagine if NG had that kind of equipment ready to deploy. It would give options. Wheel in the defences and wheel it out if it survives.

So towns overnight who could not afford a bot or power armor now can have advanced flack guns ect. that are much cheaper. CS might be too mobile unless they have a reason to hold a point. In Humm i might need to make a separate post about towed weapons. Anyways i figure i could make towed guns stats and get advice or critic about it.

My other mindframe is how does NG handle Air Defence threats than the CS ? Even Manistique Imperium ? All good questions. What do they have that is different and can be used to Counter CS or other Kingdoms. Portable Flack guns ? Mini-Missile launchers ?

Also Electronic warfare is an art both on the ground and in the Sky. ECM and ECCM. Also has Rifts earth uncovered Electromagnetic Pulse tech yet ? Meaning from the Golden Age. Humm..That could knock out radar or fry electronics of unshielded systems. Bots or power armor would get penalties if they were in the area of effect.

Also i wonder Also does CS have a giant Defence network similar to NORAD. I would assume it would be for the town or main CS city such as Chi-town ect. Free Quebec broke free so quickly so i assume its just local defence of the area. Also it might be a 2-D grid that Command sees of the over all defences of the area. Thus it would be the Chi-Town Air Defence network or Defence network HQ overseeing all defensive positions with ground line communications and computer data. Radio communications would be used also. Yet having back up systems would let the commander at the HQ know whats down or whats being repaired. Malfunctions or Computer errors as the troops at said base in the area would know but he would have an idea of where to put troops for the Duration.

Well what ever you want to do in Rifter is fine with me. AWACS plane sounds pretty cool. As does ECM and ECCM.

[FatherMorpheus]

WB:11 CWC p113, left column, 2nd paragraph from bottom.

"Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled; half are currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions"

Who some sort of complex air defense system when you can field 1.55 million SAMAS. You just block out the sky and SAMAS wall of doom.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

WB:11 CWC p113, left column, 2nd paragraph from bottom.

"Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled; half are currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions"

Who some sort of complex air defense system when you can field 1.55 million SAMAS. You just block out the sky and SAMAS wall of doom.

And that is just the ones in use by the ISS. None of those are military. So, the ISS has at least 1.5 million or so men under arms, just to account for the SAMAS they use - and we know that most ISS Peacekeapers are actually boots-on-the-ground types. So the ISS adds... another ~3-4 million total to the number of people the CS keeps under arms... even if they are using "old" tech (measly 80MDC armor and C-14 Firebreathers)

[Killer Cyborg]

The picture painted is that the CS retired over 3.2 million suits of SAMAS, and the ISS got at least half of them as hand-me-downs.
The CS retired that many SAMAS suits because they were considered obsolete by the military, after the new lines of SAMAS came out.
So not only do we know that the ISS has at least 1.6 million SAMAS (and pilots), we also know that the CS military has at LEAST "over 3.2 million" new-style SAMAS, ranging from Smiling Jacks to Super Sams.
And there may well be some old-style SAMAS suits that are still in use by the military, in some of the out-lying regions and backwater outposts.

In short, we know that the CS can pull a minimum of around 6.4 million SAMAS if it needs them.

[jaymz]

Yes the Navy uses Old Style Samas IIRC in CS Navy.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes the Navy uses Old Style Samas IIRC in CS Navy.

Huh.
So I was right when I said "backwater."

[jaymz]

[Mack]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

[Commander]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

The question is how much of that is Active ? Police forces usually compromise 10% to 5% of the town's or city's population. Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers are Military Police so that might jump the figure but would need to be added separately. CS having a strong police force might have that number at around 15% of the population due to paranoia that figure would be per CS city. Not including dog boys.

Most of those 1 out of three would guess would be stored away being repaired or back ups should the worst scenario occur. 3.2 million would be hard to deploy for two reasons first. No one would have a back up suit. Second Repairs would be a priority over taxing the Bot mechanics to fix the suits if they got into combat. Not to mention replace ammo or make weekly repairs. It would be a mess.

So i figure the number is half that to ease the strain on TO& E and Logistics. Not to mention 25% of the figure above would be active for day to day use. ISS would need to keep a strong presence. Free Quebec is separate but its ISS uses the old Cs equipment as well.

[Mack]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

The question is how much of that is Active ? Police forces usually compromise 10% to 5% of the towns population. Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers are Military Police so that might jump the figure but would need to be added separately.

Most of those 1 out of three would guess would be stored away being repaired or back ups should the worst scenario occur. 3.2 million would be hard to deploy for two reasons first. No one would have a back up suit. Second Repairs would be a priority over taxing the Bot mechanics to fix the suits if they got into combat. Not to mention replace ammo or make weekly repairs. It would be a mess.

So i figure the number is half that to ease the strain on TO& E and Logistics.

You have to think about that 3.2 million in a large context as well. Think about how paranoid the CS military leadership is. They see threats on every border, and at the time of writing CWC they were planning two major military campaigns (one against Tolkeen, one against Free Quebec). Despite all that the CS Army active duty is so well equipped that they felt comfortable giving away 3.2 million SAMAS. Eh, we don't need these any more....

That's mind boggling.

[Commander]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

The question is how much of that is Active ? Police forces usually compromise 10% to 5% of the towns population. Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers are Military Police so that might jump the figure but would need to be added separately.

Most of those 1 out of three would guess would be stored away being repaired or back ups should the worst scenario occur. 3.2 million would be hard to deploy for two reasons first. No one would have a back up suit. Second Repairs would be a priority over taxing the Bot mechanics to fix the suits if they got into combat. Not to mention replace ammo or make weekly repairs. It would be a mess.

So i figure the number is half that to ease the strain on TO& E and Logistics.

You have to think about that 3.2 million in a large context as well. Think about how paranoid the CS military leadership is. They see threats on every border, and at the time of writing CWC they were planning two major military campaigns (one against Tolkeen, one against Free Quebec). Despite all that the CS Army active duty is so well equipped that they felt comfortable giving away 3.2 million SAMAS. Eh, we don't need these any more....

That's mind boggling.

True but the Logistics would be its downfall. ISS would not have the resources nor the mechanics to keep every one of the SAMAS suits going. So they would need to have half of the suits in storage or being repaired or ready to deploy in case of emergency. Its best to have a back up as the extra suit could have a trained pilot when needed. If it is off someplace else no reserves. So if an emergency arises CS would need to regroup its police forces. Sounds like a bad emergency plan to me.

So to meet threats both in the City and 'Burbs it would be like most police forces having its man power spent wisely not to mention the equipment. I am sure sending in the Dog Boys with a PSI stalker does not require a SAMAS to be pulled off patrol. Also ISS mechanics i would imagine would be overworked and not too respected by Military since this equipment would be more of a burden logistical.

So imagine if you will that the boys in black got old military squad cars. Yay!. Mechanics would groan as the Motor Pool would be needed to be sorted out.

Also the CS still uses some of the old gear for its military machine. Options up to the CS OOC infact. I hate to say it but the reality is that 25% would be in use unless it was an emergency or Chi-Town or Iron Heart came under attack ect.

[Killer Cyborg]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

3.2 million might be more than every member of the US military forces combined, but it's only 1/3 the number of the North Korean military combined.
North Korea, btw, has an area of 46,528 sq mi.
That's a country about the size of the state of Pennsylvania.
It's just also a country that has put most of its resources into building it's military, instead of other concerns.

(Not to compare the CS to a paranoid dictatorship run by a madman or anything.)

[Killer Cyborg]

ISS would not have the resources nor the mechanics to keep every one of the SAMAS suits going.

Source?

So they would need to have half of the suits in storage or being repaired or ready to deploy in case of emergency.

Actually, for all we know, they never really need significant repair or maintenance unless they've been damaged in combat.

[Commander]

ISS would not have the resources nor the mechanics to keep every one of the SAMAS suits going.

Source?

So they would need to have half of the suits in storage or being repaired or ready to deploy in case of emergency.

Actually, for all we know, they never really need significant repair or maintenance unless they've been damaged in combat.

No real source for it. Kevin S. leave it up to each GM but the logistics would be a strain. CS is too busy with CS Arkansas and CS Missouri. So the fact they have new equipment should tell you where the resources are going. Someone is going to have to make due. CS is giving its ISS the means to do that. Like most government's a shortage and oversight happens all the time.

Yes the CS is huge and Paranoid but it would be foolish not to have a plan. Besides they would need to recruit more police and i am sure the CS is more interested in increasing its Army. Paranoid is not being so foolish that every suit you have is out and about to get damaged. The RPA Elite pilots are not going to fix the suits. Even with mechanical help a tech would be needed for each suit. So like i said. To keep things in tip top shape they would need to switch out suits so often. Also that new school of rookies could be called out in Emergency's.

I am applying logic and the way governments and logistics work. If you have five pieces of chicken and six people ISS being that sixth person they if lucky will get Half of one of the pieces. Besides the CS does have Dog pack units with a Psi-Stalker handle the more mundane so much of the crime ect, unless its a real threat could have such a unit go handle it besides the SAMAS. So budget cuts can happen but in the CS they probably do not call it that. They just say here ISS have this and we hope you can recruit more to keep our streets safe. Besides the Dog packs are expendable and a great deal of them died in Tolkeen. So the humans will need to step it up a bit while more Dog Packs are made.(Note Dog Packs are around but if you look at Rifts Ultimate Edition Lone Star it gives you an idea of the Dog pack situation in the CS Pg 26-27. Places may vary)

[jaymz]

Apparently you are not aware of the fact that resources have never...ever...been an issue for hte CS. Just READ the material about them. Resources. Not an issue. At all.

[Killer Cyborg]

ISS would not have the resources nor the mechanics to keep every one of the SAMAS suits going.

Source?

So they would need to have half of the suits in storage or being repaired or ready to deploy in case of emergency.

Actually, for all we know, they never really need significant repair or maintenance unless they've been damaged in combat.

No real source for it. Kevin S. leave it up to each GM but the logistics would be a strain. CS is too busy with CS Arkansas and CS Missouri. So the fact they have new equipment should tell you where the resources are going. Someone is going to have to make due. CS is giving its ISS the means to do that. Like most government's a shortage and oversight happens all the time.

Okay, but I'm not sure what resources and mechanics you're thinking would be necessary.
The ISS presumably already has quite bit of both.

Yes the CS is huge and Paranoid but it would be foolish not to have a plan. Besides they would need to recruit more police and i am sure the CS is more interested in increasing its Army. Paranoid is not being so foolish that every suit you have is out and about to get damaged. The RPA Elite pilots are not going to fix the suits. Even with mechanical help a tech would be needed for each suit. So like i said. To keep things in tip top shape they would need to switch out suits so often. Also that new school of rookies could be called out in Emergency's.

I don't agree that they'd need to recruit more police- apparently, they didn't need to at all. Without any indication that the ISS had less than 1.6 million Peacekeepers before the influx of old SAMAS, I don't see a need to increase. For all we know, the ISS has 10 million Peacekeepers to start with (although I agree that'd seem improbably high).
Basically, I don't see a necessity to insist on "X+Y" when we don't know what X is to begin with.

It's unclear who in the ISS exactly is flying the SAMAS, but every single ISS Peacekeeper is trained for power armor, just like every single CS Grunt.
So they wouldn't necessarily need to recruit new pilots for the SAMAS- ever Peacekeeper is already a pilot.

I am applying logic and the way governments and logistics work. If you have five pieces of chicken and six people ISS being that sixth person they if lucky will get Half of one of the pieces.

I'd agree with the metaphor, but I apply it differently.
I'd say that the old-style SAMAS are the half-a-piece of chicken, and the ISS are the people hungry to eat it.
The question is how well they can digest the meal.

Besides the CS does have Dog pack units with a Psi-Stalker handle the more mundane so much of the crime ect, unless its a real threat could have such a unit go handle it besides the SAMAS. So budget cuts can happen but in the CS they probably do not call it that. They just say here ISS have this and we hope you can recruit more to keep our streets safe. Besides the Dog packs are expendable and a great deal of them died in Tolkeen. So the humans will need to step it up a bit while more Dog Packs are made.(Note Dog Packs are around but if you look at Rifts Ultimate Edition Lone Star it gives you an idea of the Dog pack situation in the CS Pg 26-27. Places may vary)

You lost me somewhere in there.

[Killer Cyborg]

resources have never...ever...been an issue for hte CS. Just READ the material about them. Resources. Not an issue. At all.

Agreed.
The only potential issue I see is a lack of manpower, but since we don't know how many men they have to start with, I don't see a reason to assume a lack.

[jaymz]

Also.....it wouldn;t be ISS Sams that would be sent out to deal with this anyway. It would be army.

ISS as far as I know is for City security/militia purposes.

[Commander]

Also.....it wouldn;t be ISS Sams that would be sent out to deal with this anyway. It would be army.

ISS as far as I know is for City security/militia purposes.

Well looking at how most real life police departments run yes i could see the lack. Army would get the glory while the ISS gets the jobs no one wants in Urban areas even Sub Urban.

Not every situation requires a Sams. Also the only Military police i know of is a Psi-Stalker and a Dog Pack. I do not have the CS book so i cannot say for sure if they do or do not have MP's. Any Case it would Fall to the ISS to Handle internal security matters in Civilian areas. Military goes fights the enemy the ISS just keeps the peace or handles threats like out in Lone Star City. civilian matters ISS handle but inside the Lone Star Complex. Unless the Dog pack and Psi-Stalkers are the only police forces Lone Star uses. the military has Jurisdiction unless its some crime off the base such as drunken CS solder gets into a fight. But each CS state has its own ways of doing things and how justice is done. Iron Heart i would imagine would differ from Chi-town.

Also its not a matter of Resource's its also a matter of Distribution and manpower. I am well aware who the CS models themselves after but unless its a big emergency like Chi-Town ect under attack i do not see why they would have every suit filled. Also not every police duty is going to need a SAMS suit or in certain situations.

Military Handles its own affairs unless it affects the public for all else its the ISS i would imagine. So they should be wide spread. No one has touched the issue of how the suits are distributed. Chi-Town, Iron Heart and Lone Star would get the Lions share i imagine with suits for the rest of the CS areas going on a need or not need basis.

Also the logistics of such as who is going to repair them ? What facilities do the ISS have ? Most of all is where is the ISS located besides the Big city's or Burbs. Lets not forget that Free Quebec also has given its old CS equipment to its police force as no number was mentioned. Lack of the books is killing me here.

[Killer Cyborg]

unless its a big emergency like Chi-Town ect under attack i do not see why they would have every suit filled.

I agree.
But I don't see why they couldn't have every suit ready.

No one has touched the issue of how the suits are distributed. Chi-Town, Iron Heart and Lone Star would get the Lions share i imagine with suits for the rest of the CS areas going on a need or not need basis.

We have no information on how the ISS is distributed between those locations.

[jaymz]

If they have numbers for Chi-town (CWC maybe?) then we could probably at least guesstimate for other cities.

Regardless, the mission of closing any gaps in the loss of a radar listening post would go to the army and/or army air corps.

[Commander]

unless its a big emergency like Chi-Town ect under attack i do not see why they would have every suit filled.

I agree.
But I don't see why they couldn't have every suit ready.

No one has touched the issue of how the suits are distributed. Chi-Town, Iron Heart and Lone Star would get the Lions share i imagine with suits for the rest of the CS areas going on a need or not need basis.

We have no information on how the ISS is distributed between those locations.

I agree that was why i stated at the start they would have to switch suits or store them in the ISS motor pool or Garage. I would imagine its pretty hard to police much of the CHI-Town area or Iron Heart since its more wild. Also they might be in a small town that is 20 miles from the nearest CS Base.

Agreed but we can agree that most of the ISS would be located in the Big urban centers or areas that have a large CS population in a town. Even Some Sub Urban places such as the Cs elite vacation spots i would assume.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Also.....it wouldn;t be ISS Sams that would be sent out to deal with this anyway. It would be army.

ISS as far as I know is for City security/militia purposes.

Well looking at how most real life police departments run yes i could see the lack.

Ive noticed that almost all of your arguments start with some variation on this argument - "well in real life" or "real life governments" or "real life military".

This isn't real life. It isn't anything like real life. Logistical, resource, and money problems that current-day, real-life governments/ogranizations have simply don't exist for the Coalition states. Most of their military goods are produced by the state at cost. They have no resource issues. A simple perusal of the books makes that abundantly clear. Manpower is also simply never an issue. They have (quite literally) millions of people waiting in line to be CS citizens. They offer jumps to "the head of the list" for enlistments (CWC) and guaranteed citizenship for family members for those who sign up for long hitches (10+ years; also in CWC).

Also the logistics of such as who is going to repair them ? What facilities do the ISS have ?

Giant headquarters facilities in every city, unlimited manpower. What needs to be repaired? As KC said, there's no indicition of any kind that high technology suits/robots require egregious maintenance, anywhere in the books (and we're not just talking CS stuff here - there's no indication that High tech ANYTHING requires a heavy repair/refit cycle.) Again, this isn't real life or even a close facimile of it. This is Golden Age of Man super-science. Trying to compare it to what we have today is like trying to compare a wagon wheel with a dragster.

On the logistics side of things... look, it's really simple. We're presented, in the books, with the Fact that the Coalition States support an army of millions of men, million of skelebots, and millions of Dog Boys, as well as millions of near-military ISS forces (they are trained to the same standards as the Army, at least, and fight with last-generation military hardware, including Power Armor, APCs, and Robots). They have had these forces in the field for 10+ years, or even longer in most cases.

The logistics to support them are, ergo, already there. That's not open to interpretation. If the logistics and supply lines werent there, they wouldnt be noted as being able to successfully support their operations. The fact that they DO have that many men under arms (that isnt open to debate) means that they DO have the logistical capability to keep everything moving.

Most of all is where is the ISS located besides the Big city's or Burbs. Lets not forget that Free Quebec also has given its old CS equipment to its police force as no number was mentioned. Lack of the books is killing me here.

The ISS is located everywhere inside of CS territory. They have posts in every town, from small farming towns of a few thousand people (probably a platoon-sized group, though there's no hard facts) to the giant arcology cities. They are responsible for internal patrol routes, which they SHARE with the Army/Navy, and patrolling the cities themselves and the various 'Burbs.

[Commander]

If they have numbers for Chi-town (CWC maybe?) then we could probably at least guesstimate for other cities.

Regardless, the mission of closing any gaps in the loss of a radar listening post would go to the army and/or army air corps.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Pg 27-28 has Chi-Town at 2.2 million 3 million in the burbs. estimates Iowa Section is 1.3 million with farms or military bases in the Iowa Section Human Troops and Dog packs Patrol the borders. Also Keep the peace. Military bases dot the land so i would guess the military has jurisdiction over most of Iowa. Illinois seems to have hundred of small towns or villages with a dozen cities with big populations 150,000 to 240,000 with pervasive military presence. ISS would be in these areas Including Arkansas and Missouri big city's and Iron Heart(Unsure here as i need the books but will give better info later when i have said books)

[jaymz]

I meant numbers for the ISS.

[Commander]

Also.....it wouldn;t be ISS Sams that would be sent out to deal with this anyway. It would be army.

ISS as far as I know is for City security/militia purposes.

Well looking at how most real life police departments run yes i could see the lack.

Ive noticed that almost all of your arguments start with some variation on this argument - "well in real life" or "real life governments" or "real life military".

This isn't real life. It isn't anything like real life. Logistical, resource, and money problems that current-day, real-life governments/ogranizations have simply don't exist for the Coalition states. Most of their military goods are produced by the state at cost. They have no resource issues. A simple perusal of the books makes that abundantly clear. Manpower is also simply never an issue. They have (quite literally) millions of people waiting in line to be CS citizens. They offer jumps to "the head of the list" for enlistments (CWC) and guaranteed citizenship for family members for those who sign up for long hitches (10+ years; also in CWC).

Also the logistics of such as who is going to repair them ? What facilities do the ISS have ?

Giant headquarters facilities in every city, unlimited manpower. What needs to be repaired? As KC said, there's no indicition of any kind that high technology suits/robots require egregious maintenance, anywhere in the books (and we're not just talking CS stuff here - there's no indication that High tech ANYTHING requires a heavy repair/refit cycle.) Again, this isn't real life or even a close facimile of it. This is Golden Age of Man super-science. Trying to compare it to what we have today is like trying to compare a wagon wheel with a dragster.

On the logistics side of things... look, it's really simple. We're presented, in the books, with the Fact that the Coalition States support an army of millions of men, million of skelebots, and millions of Dog Boys, as well as millions of near-military ISS forces (they are trained to the same standards as the Army, at least, and fight with last-generation military hardware, including Power Armor, APCs, and Robots). They have had these forces in the field for 10+ years, or even longer in most cases.

The logistics to support them are, ergo, already there. That's not open to interpretation. If the logistics and supply lines werent there, they wouldnt be noted as being able to successfully support their operations. The fact that they DO have that many men under arms (that isnt open to debate) means that they DO have the logistical capability to keep everything moving.

Most of all is where is the ISS located besides the Big city's or Burbs. Lets not forget that Free Quebec also has given its old CS equipment to its police force as no number was mentioned. Lack of the books is killing me here.

The ISS is located everywhere inside of CS territory. They have posts in every town, from small farming towns of a few thousand people (probably a platoon-sized group, though there's no hard facts) to the giant arcology cities. They are responsible for internal patrol routes, which they SHARE with the Army/Navy, and patrolling the cities themselves and the various 'Burbs.

I think the Rifts has mentioned if not Subtlety that most robots or armor that you take in during a game session that get damaged take time to repair. Its not about the Resources since CS seems to have that mostly in hand. The books do indicate that repairs do not happen with out the proper equipment.

ISS might be able to get a suit repaired by the CS military so often but damaged suits would be taken care of by ISS mechanics or techs. Rifts Mercenaries(Pg 95) does actually give guidelines for how long it takes for repairs or payment of such for a party who engages Golden Age Weaponsmiths services. No reason why it could not be used unless you wish to use Robotech rules for repairs.

Also i might add yes no section on how repairs happen and See Rifts Ultimate Edition Pg 354 on Bots or Power Armor damage that would need to be fixed.Really up to the Gm but guidelines do exist from other Source books might have it including Source book one going off memory i cannot remember if more guidelines are in the NGR & Triax. Mindworks, Mechanoids or other tech based world books and source books.

Any ways you have to put it together. One thing Rifts does lack is a proper repair table to give GM's an idea as to how much time it takes for repairs. In mercenary's its a Day or two. Or 1D4+1 if GAW is busy. So for the CS lets say a Day ? for minor repairs ect. It says here Four weeks for G.A. Weaponsmiths so if you took more than 50% damage in the armor or bot good chances it will not see combat for a week or more for a CS Robot Power Armor even a Borg might be out of action for a bit getting repaired.

But its really up to the GM. But the rules exist you just need to extrapolate. They can be used for any and all bots or power armor. Penalties for people not have proper tools, facilities, Better than average like CHI-Town high tech repair garages might add +5% bonus or tools and Alien Tech ect should all be factored in if a PC is making a Repair roll for Electronics or to Repair the Armor.

Actually i am not trying to argue just get an idea where things are. Most Sci-Fi or magic has some real components. Castles made of stone or Big Space Ships with a crew much like our navy of today only its written. Really its up to each GM how they play. Heck i would never tell another GM how to run his game.

Simply i am just putting out information. Get an idea and yes some things should have some logic into them. I think i have been quite flexible. Rifts continues on and governments model themselves after other governments. The books add the flavor but its the GM who decides what is and is not.

If he wants to turn CS into feverish Nazi human supremacist like Zealot's who care just about war so be it or He can turn them into good guys protecting the people who see the Emperor for what he really is. No wrong answer here allot of POV's.(Points of View)

The thing is we do not know but have a general idea bout the ISS and its a GM's choice as to the Details.*Shrug* If your complaint is that my arguments are based on Real life well is not everything ? Its a game yes you are suppose to have a good time let off stress ect. Star Wars was based on real life events mixed in with other events. People base stories all the time on an idea or events. David Drake one of my most favorite authors based his experience in Vietnam into Hammers Slammers books on a Military Sci-Fi Mercenary unit that gave C.J. Carella the inspiration for Rifts Mercenaries.

Everything is a Guide. People are inspired all over. So relax. I am not here to stir things up. You have your view i respect that and i have mine. But at times the truth is more in the middle. Just trying to see what people knew out there about such things since i do not have all the books yet like i had allot of them before.

Rifts is suppose to be fun but each G.M. does things the way they think is best so its not for me to tell them no. House rules can be fun. But it helps to get clarity on a few things. I am trying to take the middle path here.

If you read some of military history. Rifts or otherwise. Its that no supply lines you are likely not to make it. Logistics allows you to have the Army ready to go not to mention food water supplies and materials to attack or defend objectives or the ISS who provide secondary support protecting human interests and keeping the peace. Wars are ugly affairs even if you fight them even, winning. If some one cuts you off from retreat or takes out the base you get repaired at that could be a problem. Most GM's will not kill a P.C. off but the fact is you got to go someplace.

My point simply is that you do not by magic simply are repaired in a few hours flying off again after taking allot of damage not how the game mechanics work. Rifts does have some realism to it as the Logistics is the town or base you are at have what you need to repair ? Thus i am simply pointing out millions of SAMS suits flying around would be a liability with no back ups. The GM who wants to make fast house rules on repairs can make that determination on how to so with small matters to great ones affecting nations, at his or her discretion., They should find what works for them. Books exist on such about exactly how long repairs take or how much M.D.C. could be repaired in an hour but books are out there to use(I hope future books will include repair rules). For me its my point of view about some realism. I am not trying to shove my views on others. Nor do i expect them to agree with everything i say as the gospel.

[flatline]

The ISS and CS military have exclusive contracts with the equipment fairies. These fairies magically repair all damaged equipment overnight and often magically create new units out of thin air just for the fun of it. It's the primary duty of the ISS to look through dumpsters and alleys every morning looking for fresh SAMAS.

--flatline

[Commander]

I think^ someone mentioned no repair rules exist. So check out Pg 95 of Rifts Mercenaries do the best you can with the repair rules. G.A. Weaponsmiths if you were able to sort out what i was saying or poof CS makes repairs. even non CS or ISS. But those places like G.A. Weaponsmiths will charge you for repairs. Unless you are affiliated with the NG or MI or (put kingdom here)

So out of this so far.


-Towed artillery guns(Air Defence and Ground useage).

-The need for repair rules.

-Electronic Warfare rules or guidelines.

-Air Defence bases used by CS, NG, MI & NGR and a comprehensive overview.

Did i miss anything ? oh yes each might need to be on other topics but get back to you on the Towed guns. Come up with my own Artillery Guns ect for each nation.

Also bases used for Air Defence with electronic Jammers such as Electronic Counter Countermeasures.(ECM.) Both in the Sky and on the ground. ECM Pods and Electromagnetic Pulse weapons that fry electronics. No damage to people.

[Kagashi]

WB:11 CWC p113, left column, 2nd paragraph from bottom.

"Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled; half are currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions"

Who some sort of complex air defense system when you can field 1.55 million SAMAS. You just block out the sky and SAMAS wall of doom.

Douhet would be proud.

[Kagashi]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

3.2 million might be more than every member of the US military forces combined, but it's only 1/3 the number of the North Korean military combined.
North Korea, btw, has an area of 46,528 sq mi.
That's a country about the size of the state of Pennsylvania.
It's just also a country that has put most of its resources into building it's military, instead of other concerns.

(Not to compare the CS to a paranoid dictatorship run by a madman or anything.)

Good comparison.

[Commander]

WB:11 CWC p113, left column, 2nd paragraph from bottom.

"Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled; half are currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions"

Who some sort of complex air defense system when you can field 1.55 million SAMAS. You just block out the sky and SAMAS wall of doom.

Douhet would be proud.

Four million attack jets like the Grey Falcon Fire four long range missiles each. Sending the Samas to a fiery doom. so 24 million missiles the first salvo before the SAMAS can respond. ECM , air cover such as the CS Air Force and Ground Air Defences are needed to see and shoot down the enemy or else they send in one spotter then shoot everything long range then medium then close in for the kill. By that time enemy(CS or whomever) should be pretty well softened up.

So yes the ground air defences are needed. As are the SAMAS or other component to allow flexibility to an attack then how to respond in kind. So this is why the CS is willing to shoot down AC-29's in the past as some got in a 100 miles of CS Air Space. Since IHA is no longer around its neutralized. Still not like the CS is going to be dumb then let some one fly into CS Air Space. Dragon. Fighter, Bomber whoever then rain death down on Chi-Town.

CS is paranoid hates magic and not stupid willing to use overwhelming force and outnumber its foes 10 to one with tech. So yes i would say the CS is pretty active in stopping people from waltzing in according to PG 147. of Rifts Mercenaries. SAMAS would not help against true aircraft. What better way than to see the enemy before you do then shoot down the threat as it closes in on an attack vector.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I think^ someone mentioned no repair rules exist. So check out Pg 95 of Rifts Mercenaries do the best you can with the repair rules. G.A. Weaponsmiths if you were able to sort out what i was saying or poof CS makes repairs. even non CS or ISS. But those places like G.A. Weaponsmiths will charge you for repairs. Unless you are affiliated with the NG or MI or (put kingdom here)

So out of this so far.


-Towed artillery guns(Air Defence and Ground useage).

By and large, the uses for which towed artillery is useful are already covered by other vehicles in the CS inventory. Mark Vs, Slayer APCs, Linebacker & Skysweeper tanks, and half of their giant robots have short or medium range missile batteries that accomplish everything towed arty would, and are far more mobile and hard to take out. In modern day, we still have a use for it because there's nothing analogous to a giant robot to take over that role, in Rifts Earth.. you're only going to find a use for such a thing where budget matters (so, i can see NG and Golden Age producing such things for broke/poor merc companies and towns), but a truly high-tech force doesn't need them.

-The need for repair rules.

What's wrong with the repair rules in SB1/Revised?

Or do you mean that you need to inflict some kind of "nothing has happened to this vehicle, but there's wear and tear that has to be constantly repaired" rules on the game, when every indication we have is that super-tech doesn't require a lot of maintenance beyond actual battle-damage repair.

-Electronic Warfare rules or guidelines.

Probably best to adapt from Robotech, but yes, when Rifts was written EW was at best in its infancy as a real technology, so it makes some sense that Rifts is lacking those rules.

-Air Defence bases used by CS, NG, MI & NGR and a comprehensive overview.

I dont really see this as a "must have" - very few, if anyone, is running a campaign that focuses on such macro things as "we're leading an offensive war against a major NA power" - its hard to run and only fun for a very specific tiny portion of the player base. What i'd much rather see is, if Robotech Tactics takes off, do Rifts Tactics to handle things like this, as that will cater to that portion of the playerbase and not muck up the already extremely poorly written Rifts system. (Had some hands on with RT:T at a few local cons, its very streamlined combat wise)

Did i miss anything ? oh yes each might need to be on other topics but get back to you on the Towed guns. Come up with my own Artillery Guns ect for each nation.

GAW has a complete line in Merctown or Merc Ops (i forget which, i dont own either, just borrowed them from a friend for a few weeks to catch up on Rifts); they're pretty much what i described - a great way for a poor merc company or town to compensate for not having SRM or MRM platforms, but kinda useless and very vulnerable against a very high-tech force with fast moving power armor or sky vehicles (sky/rocket cycles, etc).

WB:11 CWC p113, left column, 2nd paragraph from bottom.

"Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled; half are currently in use by the ISS and its subdivisions"

Who some sort of complex air defense system when you can field 1.55 million SAMAS. You just block out the sky and SAMAS wall of doom.

Douhet would be proud.

Four million attack jets like the Grey Falcon

I see we're back to fantasy-land. No one has four million jets of any kind, other than possibly the CS, NGR, and Atlantis. The CS and NGR, it is unlikely, as in both of the books where their air forces are described, they are relatively new forces, so tens of thousands to a hundred thousand is a lot more likely. Atlantis isn't interested in attacking the mainland of either continent in any case. Splyncryth doesn't want to aggrivate other extraplanar powers by appearing to try to take over Rifts Earth (this is well established as far back as WB2) and it wouldn't really gain him anything anyway.

[Nightmask]

ISS would not have the resources nor the mechanics to keep every one of the SAMAS suits going.

Source?

So they would need to have half of the suits in storage or being repaired or ready to deploy in case of emergency.

Actually, for all we know, they never really need significant repair or maintenance unless they've been damaged in combat.

No real source for it. Kevin S. leave it up to each GM but the logistics would be a strain. CS is too busy with CS Arkansas and CS Missouri. So the fact they have new equipment should tell you where the resources are going. Someone is going to have to make due. CS is giving its ISS the means to do that. Like most government's a shortage and oversight happens all the time.

Yes the CS is huge and Paranoid but it would be foolish not to have a plan. Besides they would need to recruit more police and i am sure the CS is more interested in increasing its Army. Paranoid is not being so foolish that every suit you have is out and about to get damaged. The RPA Elite pilots are not going to fix the suits. Even with mechanical help a tech would be needed for each suit. So like i said. To keep things in tip top shape they would need to switch out suits so often. Also that new school of rookies could be called out in Emergency's.

I am applying logic and the way governments and logistics work. If you have five pieces of chicken and six people ISS being that sixth person they if lucky will get Half of one of the pieces. Besides the CS does have Dog pack units with a Psi-Stalker handle the more mundane so much of the crime ect, unless its a real threat could have such a unit go handle it besides the SAMAS. So budget cuts can happen but in the CS they probably do not call it that. They just say here ISS have this and we hope you can recruit more to keep our streets safe. Besides the Dog packs are expendable and a great deal of them died in Tolkeen. So the humans will need to step it up a bit while more Dog Packs are made.(Note Dog Packs are around but if you look at Rifts Ultimate Edition Lone Star it gives you an idea of the Dog pack situation in the CS Pg 26-27. Places may vary)

Think of the CS as a Rifts version of WWII Germany that did not have to contend with the equivalent of the U.S., Russia, Great Britain and a resistance movement. Now take that same fanaticism that Germany had and increase it to the next level. Add to that, unlike Germany, as Jaymz mentioned, they have no resource issues.

So all those various non-CS groups that routinely oppose and attack CS troops (including after the Tolkeen War all those demons and angry survivors) don't qualify as resistance fighters or a level of opposition to the CS? Sorry but no the CS doesn't operate in a non-opposed vacuum (particularly when we know it actively goes around attacking and killing people so its troops are suffering losses of materiel). It's also not free from resource issues, they don't have magically regenerating material mines to feed their factories or factories that never suffer breakdowns or a manufacturing supply and distribution chain that's 100% free of requiring people involved, people who requires things like food, water, and shelter. Even slave labor costs that, otherwise you've got the attrition from all those quickly dead slaves you have to replace. Even the CS unless you're going to just go 'well they're the magical GM's toy so are magically invulnerable because I'll never let them lose' still has Resource restrictions like everyone else.

[kaid]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

Well one also has to assume that even when they were front line units they are not actually manning that entire amount and the ISS is not manning all the samas they have. Many of these are going to be stockpiled as replacments for battle damage so probably at least a third of them are likely not actively manned at any time. It is very likely from the numbers that they simply have a significant stockpile of these units well more than they actually have the capability of manning at any one time. That said they still have an incredible amount of units that can be deployed.

One thing to remember though the CS is beset on all sides by forces it considers hostile and with their advanced tech and bio tech advantages they are capable of fielding a much larger percentage of their population than any current earth force would be willing to do.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That 3.2 million SAMAS quote is one where I always have to bang my head against the wall. Just for some perspective: That's more Sam's than every member of the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard combined... including the Reserves and Guard.

Yes, it's a canon statement. But it's just...

Well one also has to assume that even when they were front line units they are not actually manning that entire amount and the ISS is not manning all the samas they have. Many of these are going to be stockpiled as replacments for battle damage so probably at least a third of them are likely not actively manned at any time. It is very likely from the numbers that they simply have a significant stockpile of these units well more than they actually have the capability of manning at any one time. That said they still have an incredible amount of units that can be deployed.

One thing to remember though the CS is beset on all sides by forces it considers hostile and with their advanced tech and bio tech advantages they are capable of fielding a much larger percentage of their population than any current earth force would be willing to do.

It says that the ISS is using roughly half of the old-style SAMs (so they use roughly 1.5 million of them). THat means that the active-duty military WAS using 3.2 million of them and they were retired, and we know they are still using Death's Head SAMs in some specialist roles/rear echelon duty, so they actually had more than 3.2 million (the CS Navy, for instance, does not issue the Smiling Jack, and uses the Death's Head in that role instead).

What KC was saying is that given the number of old-School Death's Head SAMs that were retired to storage (3.2 million) it is a decent assumption that the CS Army/armed forces actively deploy at least close to that number of SAMs combined (in a mix of Smiling Jack, Super SAMs, and Striker SAMs), in addition to the Death's Head's still in service with the CSN and the Sea SAM that the CSN uses.

I dont think he's too far off the mark. As for people who proclaim that that is simply too many men under arms - i think KC's "not" comparison of the Coalition States to North Korea is pretty apt - except the CS can grow enough food to feed its people and isn't broke.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

It's also not free from resource issues, they don't have magically regenerating material mines to feed their factories or factories that never suffer breakdowns or a manufacturing supply and distribution chain that's 100% free of requiring people involved, people who requires things like food, water, and shelter. Even slave labor costs that, otherwise you've got the attrition from all those quickly dead slaves you have to replace. Even the CS unless you're going to just go 'well they're the magical GM's toy so are magically invulnerable because I'll never let them lose' still has Resource restrictions like everyone else.

It simply is never presented that they have resource problems, though. It's never even mentioned, not once, anywhere. And who can say, really, what "materials" you need to build high-tech war machines?

Precious metals, i'd say is a given solely for wiring and circuitry, but probably in far smaller lots than we use even today - they use molecularly printed circuitry. The composites that actually make up MDC Armor/plating/structural members/etc probably have NO metal in them of any kind. So... what materials do you need to make a molecularly bonded MDC armor/structural member? It's never really covered, but just given the weight of the armor, all the way up to robots, it certainly isn't metal.

The few times any reference is made, its almost always to super-high-tech version of ceramic composites and kevlar derivatives bonded together at the molecular level - and those are all synthetic materials or materials made from.... silicates that you can dig up literally anywhere. The synthetics can be made out of simple base chemicals even now. So, honestly, for anyone with a high enough tech base to produce MDC composites, resources simply cant be that big of a problem - you're producing most of this stuff out of dirt, literally. Electronics are the only part that might keep you on a tight resource chain, but when you can print circuits at the molecular level, you use a lot less of that stuff than you'd think.

As for feeding people - again, theyre not presented as having anything resembling a problem. Even if their farmland got completely trashed, they almost certainly have the tech to produce synthetic foods that are good for basic sustenance. Or, to quote Dozer from the Matrix: "...a single celled protein combined with synthetic aminos, vitamins, and minerals. Everything the body needs." - make the stuff up in giant vats and turn it into E-rats.

yeah, it isnt gourmet, but itll feed you.

Really, the problems come from us just not having info on certain things (what DO you make MDC composites out of?), and having to extrapolate. Too often, i think, in these arguments, we tend to fall back on the assumption that the problems of today would automatically be the problems of super-science post-post-apocalypse Rifts Earth.... and they probably aren't. They almost cant be and fit the facts as presented.

[Blastaar]

I hate to say this Commander but there is GM caveat in regards to IHA and New Kenora. It is gone. They even explain in CS Navy that the CS is using the Shipyards to build new ships iirc. IHA Brass BARELY got out with their lives but they did take all teh computer data files with them. Problem is they do not have teh resources to start up again. They DID create a new Mercenary force that fights only CS targets IIRC.

And I believe that group was taken out (rifts sourcebook Vampire Kingdoms)
and I think it was Nate Copeland of the 2nd fleet that did it

[Commander]

I hate to say this Commander but there is GM caveat in regards to IHA and New Kenora. It is gone. They even explain in CS Navy that the CS is using the Shipyards to build new ships iirc. IHA Brass BARELY got out with their lives but they did take all teh computer data files with them. Problem is they do not have teh resources to start up again. They DID create a new Mercenary force that fights only CS targets IIRC.

And I believe that group was taken out (rifts sourcebook Vampire Kingdoms)
and I think it was Nate Copeland of the 2nd fleet that did it

You know i have the Vampire Sourcebook. Just not the updated one the old one. Yes but the leaders escaped. So they could very well hook up with NG, MI Wellington and Titan. So it would be up to each GM. Me i would say they would be looking for or finding backers depending on what time period we are speaking of.

If its 101-2 P.A. Then its still fresh and IHA executives would be seeking a backer. In my mind it would be away from the CS and big powers of the east finding a town to back them again. IHA could reset up again with a PC party who could help them or find an abandoned factory. Hire some merc's then secretly restart production again in limited numbers selling it through the black market as old merchandise. So its really up to the G.M. But would make a fantastic long term adventure as New Kenora gets taken over and the PC's escort the Iron Heart Executive's to safety.

Then later after a few adventures. Years later after Tolkeen War help them again. Who knows they might be able to free the Town but i doubt it since CS Built a base on the Great Lakes. The ships would be a total loss as only a Dozen big ships were being produced. Eight or seven years is a long time. Allot can happen.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I hate to say this Commander but there is GM caveat in regards to IHA and New Kenora. It is gone. They even explain in CS Navy that the CS is using the Shipyards to build new ships iirc. IHA Brass BARELY got out with their lives but they did take all teh computer data files with them. Problem is they do not have teh resources to start up again. They DID create a new Mercenary force that fights only CS targets IIRC.

And I believe that group was taken out (rifts sourcebook Vampire Kingdoms)
and I think it was Nate Copeland of the 2nd fleet that did it

You know i have the Vampire Sourcebook.

There's actually two (three, if you count the "old" Vampire Kingdoms) - Vampire Kingdom's Revised and Expanded and a separate Vampires Sourcebook. Both are relatively new.

Just not the updated one the old one. Yes but the leaders escaped. So they could very well hook up with NG, MI Wellington and

Highly unlikely, as NG and MI (where Wellington is based) are now official allies of the Coalition States and extremely unlikely to partner up with people the CS just tried to take out.

Titan.

I doubt Archie cares one whit for what they had. He's got far better designs and far higher technology than those guys. Other than Triax, actually, he's got the highest-tech techbase on the planet, of the human/human-like nations (Atlantis being off-worlders, by and large).

So it would be up to each GM. Me i would say they would be looking for or finding backers depending on what time period we are speaking of.

If its 101-2 P.A. Then its still fresh and IHA executives would be seeking a backer. In my mind it would be away from the CS and big powers of the east finding a town to back them again. IHA could reset up again with a PC party who could help them or find an abandoned factory. Hire some merc's then secretly restart production again in limited numbers selling it through the black market as old merchandise. So its really up to the G.M. But would make a fantastic long term adventure as New Kenora gets taken over and the PC's escort the Iron Heart Executive's to safety.

That could be an interesting adventure, though i think the previous poster is correct in "canon" terms that the IHA execs were killed down in the Vampire Kingdoms in the newer sourcebooks.

Then later after a few adventures. Years later after Tolkeen War help them again. Who knows they might be able to free the Town but i doubt it since CS Built a base on the Great Lakes. The ships would be a total loss as only a Dozen big ships were being produced. Eight or seven years is a long time. Allot can happen.

Actually, the CS has several bases on the Great Lakes, including their First Fleet headquarters, a major installation at the new Mega-City of Waukeegan (bigger than Chi-town, 3.2 million people when it is full), and Iron Heart has occupied New Kenora and it's related seaport. The docks IHA used to create their ships is now being used to create those same ship types for the CS Navy. It is one of their major shipyards (Waukeegan, First Fleet HQ, and Second Fleet HQ at Fort Pinnacle being the others).

[Commander]

Here let me share why i think much of this would help. Also i was exaggerating with the four million jets. NG i think could get two or one million but i would need the books before making such large claims. My point was the SAMAS could be brought down by missiles from far out by Fighter Jets and Bombers if they have any. Sky cycle's And the Sky King would be hard to defend against. But the weapons need to close in. Having a steel wall that sits in one place is foolish. They would all perish to massive missle bombardments now that is again fantasy to AGAIN. So i am sorry you feel that way. Sure its a large amount. People keep forgetting NG and MI exist on the Continent as well as Lazlo and New Lazlo.

- On the Repairs. It would be nice to know how much M.D.C. Gets repaired as i had to use Ad Hoc rules from Robotech Invid Invasion with Mercenaries and i think SB1. It would be nice to have clear cut repair rules to help G.M.'s that can be looked up fast and used with out looking though five books.

-Portable Artillery, Missile Batteries, Portable Radar Stations and Flack Guns. CS might be trying to use the Blitzkreig and i am aware of the Robots, Vehicle's and Power Armor in use. Keep this in mind. Reason why its in use today and would be in use in kingdoms or other areas even the CS would be apparent. People who say Vehicles are the same as towed artillery really need to look into the history of such. They are tanks in many respects NGR is the only force i know of that has Bots or Vehicles that would qualify as Mobile Artillery. Reasons for having such

1:Having control of the area. with the tech of Rifts it would be feasible. It can be deployed in areas for ambushes & command and control of ground personnel. Also being able to establish a defensive line in a world with bots aircraft powered armor would be cheap but effective in real military terms.(So this means if P.C.'s get attacked the flack gun nearby might be closer then the bots they have to fend off an attack till they are able to reach them for example)

2:Allowing it to be used as a secondary option. Meaning in case radar went down Flack guns and a Radar could be dispatched with other forces in the area from power armor to robots and ground troops Sky Cycles or Sky Kings. Also during a war could be towed in place to keep supply lines. Rally Points, Depot's, & Recently taken objectives enemy free.

3. Tacitly speaking and strategically. If you want to hold an area with artillery or flack or a battery of missile's this allows the troops to attack from a strong point. Hold key areas and adds firepower when air strikes are unavailable.(So yes the C.S. while mobile will need a mobile system that can be deployed in emergencies in urban areas or set up in the woods in a short time.) Artillery in all its forms should not be underestimated. While it cannot move on its own power it can be towed away to a new location. Drawbacks is that yet a sitting target but one with big guns to give enemy ground troops or air forces pause. Big weakness is that they can be assaulted up close. During WWII the german's used flack guns as anti personnel and anti tank guns. In Rifts i see why they could not be versatile.

So while this will not be at the forefront of all operations. The fact that you have fire bases waiting to shell the enemy into submission. So he will have to hit the Artillery and the flack guns surrounding it. CS would prefer more flexible defensive or attack posture but would help with static defences. Other Non CS nations or kingdoms could deploy such allowing them to muster better air defences and Artillery Batteries that would make even Glitterboys quake in them boots.

4. If your defensive network gets taken out its nice to have a back up while repairs are being made so you can just drive it out then wait till the repairs are made assuming no trouble happens then drive off. As the Air-Defence crew would be protected by Power Armor or Ground Troops while the tech(s) make repairs.

(Note one cannot account for all things. so if it is detected then destroyed then that would be a loss. That could mean while its being transported also. )

-There is more than Just electronic jammers. ECM pods are nice but what about flares ? Decoys and chaff ? This is just for the air never mind that the water could have such countermeasures for subs ect. Also if some one is Jamming you. You need to burn through the Jamming.( So in game terms it would be people rolling against the GM who would be trying to beat the roll. If he does that missile that could have hit you misses or you burn through the enemys jamming to see what forces they have inbound.

EMP weapons fry electronics thus meaning depending on how far away all electronic devices are as some with shielding like a Robot or Power Armor would get penalties for an attack. So lets say a bomb does 2D6X10 M.D. Damage but thats just listed. It does no real physical damage So each point of damage that hit the arm or leg would get penalties. Such damage would last the amount of damage done so lets say a six is rolled. So for Six minutes all non shielded electronics would be fried like Toasters , Camera's so on would be fried. Bots Power Armor Borgs ect even weapons would be rendered non functional for rounds(So since a six was rolled it would be six rounds) It only works if the electronics are on. Walkie talkies ect would most likely fry as would com towers. About the only draw back to such a weapon is that the device needs to be turned on. So Radar Dishes, Command Center, Communication Towers would be knocked out.

Robots Power Armor ect not in the target area but in the blast radius will take penalties on the damage taken.(So -6 to doge parry and Strike for 6 rounds.) So that would be Scary for a SAMAS pilot who one moment would be flying then would be hitting the ground at the speed he was traveling. Ouch.

A little history on Electromagnetic Pulse. EMP tech is still kind of new. Nukes that were detonated would shut down all electronics just before the blast hit. So that tech was developed. It was used in real life conflicts like the Gulf war and Bosnia. Stealth Bomber with an EMP bomb hitting the enemy's radar with coordinated strikes then bombing it to make sure it could not be used again. So imagine the uses in Rifts. Just a Thought.

Just some thoughts so yes i will be making a full post about Air Defences(Bases for All Kingdoms & Artillery/Flack guns in a separate post) I have some very good ideas and i am sure people will be pleased.

[Commander]

I hate to say this Commander but there is GM caveat in regards to IHA and New Kenora. It is gone. They even explain in CS Navy that the CS is using the Shipyards to build new ships iirc. IHA Brass BARELY got out with their lives but they did take all teh computer data files with them. Problem is they do not have teh resources to start up again. They DID create a new Mercenary force that fights only CS targets IIRC.

And I believe that group was taken out (rifts sourcebook Vampire Kingdoms)
and I think it was Nate Copeland of the 2nd fleet that did it

You know i have the Vampire Sourcebook.

There's actually two (three, if you count the "old" Vampire Kingdoms) - Vampire Kingdom's Revised and Expanded and a separate Vampires Sourcebook. Both are relatively new.

Just not the updated one the old one. Yes but the leaders escaped. So they could very well hook up with NG, MI Wellington and

Highly unlikely, as NG and MI (where Wellington is based) are now official allies of the Coalition States and extremely unlikely to partner up with people the CS just tried to take out.

Titan.

I doubt Archie cares one whit for what they had. He's got far better designs and far higher technology than those guys. Other than Triax, actually, he's got the highest-tech techbase on the planet, of the human/human-like nations (Atlantis being off-worlders, by and large).

So it would be up to each GM. Me i would say they would be looking for or finding backers depending on what time period we are speaking of.

If its 101-2 P.A. Then its still fresh and IHA executives would be seeking a backer. In my mind it would be away from the CS and big powers of the east finding a town to back them again. IHA could reset up again with a PC party who could help them or find an abandoned factory. Hire some merc's then secretly restart production again in limited numbers selling it through the black market as old merchandise. So its really up to the G.M. But would make a fantastic long term adventure as New Kenora gets taken over and the PC's escort the Iron Heart Executive's to safety.

That could be an interesting adventure, though i think the previous poster is correct in "canon" terms that the IHA execs were killed down in the Vampire Kingdoms in the newer sourcebooks.

Then later after a few adventures. Years later after Tolkeen War help them again. Who knows they might be able to free the Town but i doubt it since CS Built a base on the Great Lakes. The ships would be a total loss as only a Dozen big ships were being produced. Eight or seven years is a long time. Allot can happen.

Actually, the CS has several bases on the Great Lakes, including their First Fleet headquarters, a major installation at the new Mega-City of Waukeegan (bigger than Chi-town, 3.2 million people when it is full), and Iron Heart has occupied New Kenora and it's related seaport. The docks IHA used to create their ships is now being used to create those same ship types for the CS Navy. It is one of their major shipyards (Waukeegan, First Fleet HQ, and Second Fleet HQ at Fort Pinnacle being the others).

Its Vague what happens to the IHA execs it does not say they died but that some reps made delivery. Execs could be very well alive since they Escaped with the plans still.(So this means both sides would need to regroup then decide. PC's could get involved. Having to go south to find the Reps) Duluth was the IHA shipyard as i do not see a CS base near but it might have been converted or just abandoned even moved.

Wellington Industries has been hiding they been selling to anyone then making the records of such go poof. Rifts Ultimate edition states this and NG is doing the same thing but leaving a paper trail unlike W.I. to enemy's of the C.S. Like New Lazlo and Lazlo merc groups ect. Rifts is a big place so i am sure the IHA has some pull in the Black Market or even private Iron Heart interests such as a Big shot privileged CS citizen who is disgruntled thus having too much time and money looking to "Reinvest".

Again up to each G.M. but i would say that IHA would be in hiding or working for the black market as a guess till they could get restarted. As for Titan does Archie not manipulate humans ? I am sure not every one that works at Titan would be all robots. I mean his robots would get detected at some point. So no big shots would be human. Most would not know that the guy in accounting is really an android. Yes Archie has greater tech but the higher the tech the greater someone will figure out he is selling the Titans. He made each one with Hagan i think. To be average not to arouse suspicion if i can remember SB/1 Correctly. Cutting a deal to make Vehicles might throw some off A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 who could have human partners like IHA allowing him to put more of a human face on things. Sure he does not want the CS poking around but i am sure they will not suspect anything only seeing the IHA execs as the threat as once again they are in Business. Archie would not be the focus as no one would suspect anything even if distracting the CS thus letting him get information in places he would not be able to such as Merc groups ect. Then again CS likes to push things so might launch an investigation. It would be on the IHA not Archie so its a win win for him. so it really depends on the G.M. and the Campaign they want to run. Just pure speculation here.

So the idea here is that Titan(note might have a dummy corporation set up as a middle man secretly helping IHA while Archie really is calling the shots here. using IHA as they secretly back it. Archie seems to have allot of secrets.) through Archie uses IHA to allow him access to information. IHA would never know. Another Note on the CS side of things the G.M. Could have C.S. Chars who want some depth as a throwback to the Tolkeen war could help in taking New Kenora thus halting IHA. They would be trying to get to the Execs but might be stalled by Mercenaries or Hidden defences.

Every so often they hear about them. Thus they might try to find them as they did not get them last time thus the plans they had would be well worth it for the PC's who could decided to be loyal to the CS as they capture the Execs or Take them fabricating a story.

I am sure they will be busy with Tolkeen. So it really depends on the G.M and the P.C's who would have boogy men to chase after for a bit during the years before the War.