Coalition Resources

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, so the issue has been coming up in a lot of threads lately, and I wanted to give it its own place.
That's here.

The general areas of disagreement seem to be that some believe that the CS has "unlimited resources" given to them purely through writers fiat- that is, that the CS has far more high-tech weapons, armor, robots, etc. than they could possibly achieve given the territory that they control.
It's not the first time these arguments have come up, and it's not the last.

To give us a head start (and save myself some retyping), here's an old post of mine where I try to drive home two points:
1. The CS has an extremely high level of resources, though not unlimited.
2. These resources are supported by passages in the books (specifically the RMB and original SB1) that give us plenty of information to work with in order to determine what resources the CS has (or might reasonably have) available to them.

Unfortunately, the original topic was locked, so I cannot simply QUOTE my own post, I have to cut and paste, which means that the formatting is lost... which means that some of the links to supporting information are not going to appear here.
If anybody is interested in my sources, feel free to check the original post, and to follow the links there.
I don't have the time right now to redo the links- I'll be spending too much time as it is, just re-bolding and re-italicizing things.

[quote=Killer Cyborg]...they're NOT sitting on unlimited resources.
But they DO have quite a lot at their disposal, and that's made incredibly clear in the first couple of Rifts books (Rifts and Sourcebook 1), the same place where you claim to have gotten your impression that they DO have problems getting resources.

So let's compare notes:

Rifts, 52
The CS Grunt, the "everyday infantry soldier" of the CS, has (among others) the following skills:
Pilot Hovercraft
Pilot Tank & APC
Robot Combat: Basic

Their BASIC infantry, the guy right out of boot camp, is trained to pilot tanks, hovercraft, robots and power armor.
Does this imply:
a) The CS has limited resources, and probably not a lot of tanks, hovercraft, robots, and power armor at their disposal?
or
b) The CS has enough resources to have a large enough supply of these high-tech and costly war machines that theytake the time, effort, and expense to train every single one of their grunts with the skills to use them, because they know that there are plenty of these machines to go around?

Let's look at the equipment list (again, for the "everyday infantry" of the CS).
Notice that the "Equipment available upon assignment" starts with "Any weapon types."
ANY weapon types.
Their basic soldier can, upon assignment, have ANY WEAPON.
This indicates that they have a sufficient stock of weapons that even high-priced and/or non-standard weapons are readily available for any of their soldiers an an as-needed basis.

Next up is "extra ammunition," again indicating a healthy stock (this is on top of the 8 spare E-Clips that each Grunt already gets as standard).
Again, this indicates a healthy stock of ammunition.

Next up is "Spider Skull Walker, Enforcer UAR-1, Other robot vehicles, hovercraft (especially hovercycle), tank..."
So yeah... they're not just training every one of their basic infantry with the skills to use those vehicles for fun, they're doing it because they fully expect their grunts to use that training from time to time.

Also, note that the average grunt gets a monthly salary of 1700 Credits, along with food, clothing, and "all other basics" for free.
We know that the Credit is the equivalent of the modern US or Canadian dollar (MOPs 108), though it can't buy a lot of the same mass-produced luxuries that we enjoy today at the same rate.
But that means that the average Grunt earns roughly the equivalent of $20,400/year, plus room and board and other expenses.
The pay as of 2011 for a US military rank E-1 is $1491.00 per month.
Rank E-3 and higher can make more money than the Grunt's equivalent, but the salary listed for the Grunt starts at level one, a green recruit fresh from bootcamp.
So, overall, the CS military can afford to pay its soldiers more or less what the United States of America can pay its soldiers.
Considering that the CS's territory is composed of less than 1/3 of the area of the United States, and they don't have the same level of international trade or other infrastructure, that level of pay demonstrates that they have a remarkably high level of resources available to them for their size and limitations.

Rifts 53
Notice that even though every infantryman leaves boot camp with training in piloting robots, power armor, and hovercycles, the CS has specialists in that kind of piloting. They don't just wait for their Grunts to level up, THEN give them the fancy toys, they specially train elite pilots as well. Again, this indicates that they have plenty of power armor, robots, and other high-tech vehicles available.

Rifts 56
While there are feudal states that take advantage of MOM technology, the CS has outlawed it.
If they were in a truly tight spot, with limited resources, they would be more likely to legalize and utilize this kind of technology, creating super-soldiers to help them survive. As it is, though, they can afford the luxury of rejecting such extreme measures of survival.
Same with Juicers (p. 69): The CS not only forbids Juicer technology among its citizens, they won't even hire outside Juicer mercenaries, even for cannon fodder.

Rifts 128
For those of you who have seen the growing cities of Chi-Town and Quebec, these cities resemble those before the Time of the Rifts.

Rifts 129, under the description of Minnesota
This area was a haven for civilized people... these multi-racial towns have prospered and grown over the last 40 years, though still tiny by Coalition standards. This prosperity has made Minnesota human neighbors and the Coalition nervous.

The Coalition's immediate opposition will be the city of Tolkeen... Without question, Tolkeen is the largest and most powerful city in the area....
The real opposition that awaits the Coalition is the alien insect race known as the Xiticix...

There were, before the CS intervention, a large number of towns that prospered for decades, that were considered a haven for civilized people, and that were prosperous enough to inspire envy in their neighbors.
The largest and most powerful of these cities was Tolkeen.
And they were TINY by Coalition standards.

The REAL opposition in that area to the CS's plans is NOT any of the human cities, or a combination of the human cities that have spent 40 years growing strong in that area- it's the race of insects that has spent only 20 years growing and spreading, and already numbering by some accounts (Rifts 253) in the hundreds of thousands.

Again, Tolkeen "has no hope of survival against an all-out siege," and they're not the real opposition to the CS in that area, despite that city being "without question" the most powerful of the region.
This does not make the CS sound like they're short on resources.

Rifts 140
The Coalition State of Chi-Town encompasses Northern Illinois and all of Iowa. The Iowa section is 70% farmland and 30% livestock, pigs and cattle. Tiny farm communities can be found every 50 miles or so.
The Iowa section explains how some of their food necessities are met- they have an entire US State dedicated to food production.
But notice the other part, about how the state encompasses Northern Illinois.
Illinois has a number of natural resources, coal being one of them, including significant deposits in Northern Illinois.
Does the CS use coal?
Probably for something. They might use it to supplement their nuclear power sources, not caring about the high sulfur content of the coal. Or they might extract the sulfur to use for other stuff, or they might turn the coal into high-carbon compounds and/or plastics.
There's aLOT of coal in Illinois:
"Illinois' recoverable reserves of coal are larger than those of any state east of the Mississippi River and the third largest in the country, behind only Montana and Wyoming. About 200 billion tons of coal are estimated to lie underground in the state."
And there's a heck of a lot that you can do with coal.

Also, northern Illinois has lead, and Illinois in general has industrial sand quarries or pits, limestone and dolomite stone quarries and underground mines, clay pits, peat pits, and tripoli quarries.
Not to mention quite a bit of timber, farmland, and other resources.

So in northern Illinois alone, even assuming that for some reason there isn't ANY CS mining in the entire state of Iowa, they have a very strong source of coal for power, oil, plastics, and carbon products, as well as stone and timber for construction, and clay for ceramics.
Since the three main MDC materials we see are metal, ceramics, and plastics, that gives them a strong potential supply for 2 out of 3.

Back to Rifts p. 140
The pervasive presence of the military is everywhere in the state of Chi-Town, according to Tarn.
The Illinois portion of the Chi-Town State is the undisputable hub of North America civilization.
The people seem quite content and blissful.

Rifts, 141
Missouri is a tactical addition of the Coalition, and is one of the weakest and most timid of the allied states.
It is a rich farmland...
The Coalition has pumped a great deal of money and resources into the develpment of Missouri, which is quickly becoming anew haven for humankind.

The state of Missouri (the US state and the CS state have the same borders) has a large supply of mineral resources, including iron, copper, lead, zinc, cobalt, nickel, various kinds of clay, silica sand, silver, manganese, tungsten, limorite, hematite, barite, limestone, high-magnesium dolemite, granite, felsite, coal, oil, natural gas, and so on.
And, as mentioned, farmland.

In Arkansas, the CS has a strong ally in Fort El Dorado, which has oil fields and refining plants, as well as sawmills and natural gas facilities.

Rifts, 143
The Coalition State of Lonestar claims all of the US state of Texas, although the are that they "really" control is limited to "the northwestern edge from odessa to Amarillo and east to Witchita Falls.
At this point, I could research and link to the resources to be found in that section of Texas, but if you don't get the point, or don't agree with it, by now, I doubt that will help.
Texas has oil, natural gas, iron, copper, and much of the same resources mentioned above, including in the region that the CS controls as of 101 PA.

Rifts 149
The Coalition State of Iron Heart includes "a vast territory," and it's capital City of Iron is "actually much larger" than its pre-rifts days of Sudbury.
It's factories, mines, and saw mills provide people with employment and offers the luxury of civilization, technology, and protection by the Coalition...
Mines and processing plants for iron, nickel, copper, coal, and a bit of silver and gold are the City of Iron and Iron Heart's greatest resource. But it was another asset that convinced Chi-Town to accept Iron Heart as a member of the Coalition States...
Specifically, it was a pre-rifts science museum.
So while Iron Heart was an industrial power, with plenty of resources at its disposal, the CS didn't really need it.
What they wanted was a chance at any pre-rifts technology or knowledge that gets dug up, not the resources or industry.
Which indicates that they already have quite a bit of that on their own.

Meanwhile, Free Quebec is "a high-tech, industrial giant and completely self-supporting" of its population of 1 million people.
And (Rifts 150) this "high-tech, industrial giant" has a technology level that is 25% lower than that of Chi-Town, "perhaps as much as 40%."

Rifts, 152
Without satellites, communications is limited to ground systems and fiber optics which require broadcasting/relay stations or ground cables. Only the Coalition and a few of the largest cities have the means to implement such systems (the Coalition States all have an impressive broadcast and telephone system).
Sounds like they have a healthy infrastructure- ALL Coalition States have impressive communications systems, considering their lack of satellites.

Rifts, 157
From a description of Chi-Town:
Inside is an incredible megalopolis where the elite true humans and their protectors live.
You don't get an "incredible megalopolis" if you're struggling for resources.

Rifts, 191
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.

And, from Tarn's writings, Small, almost inconsequential acts of aggression under the guise of "security" weaves an unmistakable patter of growing military strength and imperialistic conquests. These inconsequential acts of self-preservation have increased the landholdings of Chi-town by 12% and have increased manufacturing and political strength by as much as 35%.

Rifts, 193
On the standard Dead Boy armor:
The armor is a lightweight ceramic, with metal accents, bonded on a molecular level, making it stronger than steel.
This is why I pointed out the clay pits in Illinois and Missouri- you get ceramics from clay.
You have clay, along with the right tech and manufacturing gear, you have MDC body armor.

Rifts 193-202
Remember how ALL of the Coalition's "everyday infantry" is trained to pilot robots, power armor, tanks, APCs, and sky cycles?
Here's were we get a look at that equipment.
A single SAMAS is worth 1.6 million credits.
An Enforcer is worth 28 million credits.
A Spider Skull Walker is worth 36 million credits.
A Mark V APC is worth 21+ million credits.
A Sky Cycle is worth 1 million credits.
And these are all listed as available for any grunt in the military, if the assignment in question warrants it.
This is stuff that gets used, commonly, by the basic infantry of the Coalition.
This indicates that they have plenty of wealth and resources as a nation.

Also note that these are not the most cost-effective combat vehicles that the CS could have created.
Anything with a nuclear power supply gets an unlimited supply of ammunition for lasers or other energy weapons for the duration of that power supply's lifespan, so if a nation was strapped in resources in any way, they would be likely to design their war machines to take advantage of that fact, and to rely heavily on energy weapons in order to conserve resources.
But the SAMAS doesn't even HAVE a laser- it uses a rail gun, which use up 40 rounds every time the trigger is pulled, and mini-missiles.
And not just any mini-missiles, but Plasma and Armor Piercing as standard. So that's CR 2,200 per missile used.
They reject FREE energy weapon ammunition in favor of railguns and missiles, because railguns have better range and missiles have better range and damage. Railguns and missiles cost a heck of a lot more, but the CS isn't really worried about cost.

Similar situation with the Enforcer. There are two light laser turrets with good (4,000') range and unlimited ammunition, but the main weapons for the bot are its 80-rounds-burst railgun, some medium range missile launchers (HE or Plasma as standard, so that's 25,000-50,000 Credits per missile launched), some short-range missile launchers (AP, HE, or Plasma as standard, so that's 2,500-5,000 Credits per missile launched, and a mini-missile launcher (same cost as with the SAMAS).
One good battle can cost them hundreds of thousands of credits in spent ammunition alone, but that's not a strong enough incentive for the CS to bother relying more on laser weapons, and less on more expensive ammunition.
It's worth the cost for the weapons they use, and they apparently have plenty of money.

Same deal with the Spider Skull Walker: it has some lasers, but mostly relies on massive railguns that fire 80-round bursts from two cannons at once. No missiles on it, though I don't see any reason to believe that it's because the CS can't afford them. The Skull Walker is a CR 36 million robot spider, so it doesn't seem like they need to pinch any pennies.

The Mark V has more lasers than the other vehicles, but its main weapons, again, are a railgun (40-round bursts) and some forward-facing missile launchers, along with some auto-cannons (no idea how much the frag rounds for that cost, but it's probably comparable to mini-missiles).

As for the Sky Cycle, it's got mini-missile launchers and a laser turret. No rail gun, but that's probably due more to issues of weight and/or recoil than of cost. You don't go with missiles if you're on a budget, not for vehicles that your average grunt is probably going to be driving around in.

Rifts, 218
The Coalition State of Free Quebec is the only kingdom within the Coalitino that manufactures and deploys Glitter Boys, a policiy that will be discontinued if Emperor [Prosek] has anything to say about it (he seeks a consistent and unified force and GBs are not part of his plan).
The Coalition States can manufacture and use perhaps THE most powerful suit of power armor available, but decides not to for aesthetic and political reasons.
Nations that are strapped for resources don't generally decide against adding to their firepower simply because they want things to be more uniform.
The CS has the manufacturing and economic capabilities to have the luxury of picking and choosing what and who goes into their military.

SB1, 12
The Coalition States is the largest and most powerful nation in the Americas

Fifty percent of the Coalition's citizens have some form of cybernetic or bionic augmentation. The majority of these implants are minor or for medical reasons... Cybernetic and high-tech medical treatment have increased the average life expectancy of those living in the big cities, like Chi-town, to 90 years. The smaller CS cities and towns enjoy an average life expectancy of about 80 years.

A town, by definition, must engage in industry (even primitive industry like barrel-making, carpentry, tailoring, etc.), services (mail delivery, repairs, stores, etc.), trade (exchanging finished goods or services for raw materials), administration (some sort of governing body, king, lord, priest, leader, council of elders, etc.), research and development (both the town's deveopment and industry's). Without these six conditions, a gathering of people and buildings is not a town.
The population of a town can be as little as a few hundred to several thousand.
(Rifts, 140: The Illinois population of the Chi-Town State has hundreds of small towns)

SB1, 21
A man always thinking of the future, Emperor Prosek has directed Chi-Town and Lone-Star military to dispatch reconnaissance forces into New Mexico and Central America. The primary objective is to scout the land for future invasion and secondly, to address the rumors of vampires dominating Central America... Rumor has it that a few secret CS outposts have already been established in Central America.

The CS is secure enough in their current position and power to be thinking about long-term conquests, and was already making motions in that direction as early as 102 PA.

Also, note that Prosek has special body armor that has 100 MDC (like the later-implemented new style CS Heavy Dead Boy armor), but weighs only 15 lbs.
Just another sign of their high tech. General Cabot (p. 22) has the same kind of armor.

SB1, 27
A Coalition Reconnaissance Squad is a team of soldiers whose job is to explore and investigate a particular region. The investigation may be to search for the enemy (usually to locate and identify, NOT seek and destroy, although a possible option), monitoring an area (to make certain the enemy is not operating in that area), or mapping and noting of a region...

Note that a Light Mechanized Recon Squad has 2-3 SAMAS, 2-3 Grunts, and that there is a 70% chance that the grunts will be piloting Sky Cycles. Just to highlight jet again that Grunts regularly use pieces of million-credit equipment. There's also a tech officer (same transport as the grunts) and a Military Specialist (SAMAS or Sky Cycle or Bionic augmentation).
The HEAVY Mechanized Recon Squad has heavier stuff, from Abolishers to Skull Walkers, teamed with SAMAS, of course.

SB1, 33
The Skelebots are comparatively inexpensive, mass produced unites designed with the thought that they will have a high mortality/destruction rate considering their intended deployment into extremely hostile environments.

SB1, 34
Black Market Cost: Three Million Credits

The CS is using as cannon fodder, high-tech robots that they mass produce, with the full understanding that these robots will not be long-lived, and will take a lot of losses. These "comparatively inexpensive" robots have a resale value of 3 million credits.
The kind of resources and manufacturing base that would be required for that is impressive- not the kind of thing that an empire with any kind of lack of resources would attempt.

SB1, 38
Triax Industries has become increasingly aggressive in their marketing and sale of robots, power armor, and other weapons and equipment in North America...
The main reason that Triaz Industries' products are now more available is that Emperor Prosek has agreed to a little known and informal pact with the infamous New Republic (Germany and Scandinavia)...
The pact includes a limited trade agreement that gives Triax access to less hostile, CS secured, trade routes, occasional CS military escorts, and limited commercial services.

Not only does the CS engage in trade with Europe, the reason why Triax can trade more successfully in recent (102 PA) years is because the CS protects them by guarding trade routes and providing military escorts.
So they're both economically capable and secure, as well as being a strong enough military that they can ensure better security for Triax Industries than they can provide for themselves (in America, anyway).

SB1 55
The black market, CS malls, some Burbs,and some of the larger Coalition and non-CS communities offer repairs for body armor and robotics. Still, availability is pretty limited. Only the most industrialized places have such facilities.

Known repair facilities in the Coalition States:
ALL the CS capital cities and major industrial communities

Outside of the CS, the list includes:
Northern Gun, Manistique Imperium, Lazlo, Tolkeen, Whykin, Kingsdale, Fort El Dorado, and the Pecos Empire.
That's it- nobody else (in the early books) had that kind of capability.
The CS (which has 5 capitals alone, and I'd wager at least as many non-capital cities that qualify as major industrial communities), and 8 places outside of the CS.
At least two of which are set to become CS allies, and one of which is set to be destroyed by the CS.[/quote]

Note 1: I realize that, due to the nature of the conversation I was in, I did not use anything newer than SB1, which means that yes, everything I describe is how things were well before the CS wars with Tolkeen and Free Quebec.
The war took a relative toll on CS resources, and that is not taken into account in the post I made.
Although I think that the key word there is "relative."
If people want to discuss how later books have changed the picture since what was portrayed in those first two Rifts books, that's good. As long as nobody takes it to mean that I was "wrong" about the above information, simply because I was addressing a specific time period.

Note 2: While I have many, many times over the years seen people make many arguments to the effect of "Because the books don't detail exactly how the CS gets its resources, the CS doesn't have enough resources to make all the equipment/vehicles that it has." Basically insisting that the books need to connect every dot in the supply chain, or else that supply chain doesn't exist in the game world.
Which doesn't really follow, logically speaking.
More importantly, this argument would seem to apply more or less equally to every city/state/nation/faction on Rifts Earth.
I ask that nobody any arguments into this thread that they are not willing to apply equally to Tolkeen, Atlantis, the Federation of Magic, Triax, etc. etc.

Note 3: If anybody finds any passages in later books (and there are sure to be some) or from real-world information (such as "Illinois has massive amounts of coal"), please cite the source, and give a direct quote whenever possible.

[Nightmask]

You give way too much weight to a variety of things than they really deserve, particularly fluff text.

Having basic training for the grunts to include things like piloting power armor and tanks doesn't provide justification for a 'well the CS has so much of the stuff that even the grunts generally get to use them'. What it means is that even though the grunts AREN'T generally using such items the training in their use isn't so difficult to manage so it's part of their basic training just in case it becomes necessary one of them fill in for the person who'd normally be doing that duty.

The weapons training and access is in the same area, the various weapon categories (notice that they didn't say 'any weapon' they referred to weapons by category) have fairly standard requirements to learn how to use them (hence why we have 'WP Energy Pistol' for example rather than a WP for each different energy weapon). Whether the weapons are available or not you still train the grunts in the use of the basic categories of weapons because it'd be stupid not to. "Hey we may not be able to give everyone an Energy Rifle so we'll just not train you in the use of them so if you do get one you're just out of luck' hardly sounds like the actions of a half-way intelligent military. You think a military skips on training how to use something when they have a shortage leaving themselves with soldiers who can't use the gear when it does come available?

The same holds for the resources one can actually find within the boundaries of the CS, since those coal fields for example aren't that easy to access and much of it requires strip-mining destroying the landscape above it and quite a bit of that coal is beneath farmland so you aren't going to get both. Those mega-cities also permanently tie up a LOT of resources, can't build something without using up non-reusable resources (since if you want that item you can't make something else with the same material).

[Killer Cyborg]

You give way too much weight to a variety of things than they really deserve, particularly fluff text.

Having basic training for the grunts to include things like piloting power armor and tanks doesn't provide justification for a 'well the CS has so much of the stuff that even the grunts generally get to use them'. What it means is that even though the grunts AREN'T generally using such items the training in their use isn't so difficult to manage so it's part of their basic training just in case it becomes necessary one of them fill in for the person who'd normally be doing that duty.

Which still shows the same thing- the only part we disagree on is the extent.

The weapons training and access is in the same area, the various weapon categories (notice that they didn't say 'any weapon' they referred to weapons by category) have fairly standard requirements to learn how to use them (hence why we have 'WP Energy Pistol' for example rather than a WP for each different energy weapon). Whether the weapons are available or not you still train the grunts in the use of the basic categories of weapons because it'd be stupid not to. "Hey we may not be able to give everyone an Energy Rifle so we'll just not train you in the use of them so if you do get one you're just out of luck' hardly sounds like the actions of a half-way intelligent military. You think a military skips on training how to use something when they have a shortage leaving themselves with soldiers who can't use the gear when it does come available?

Not sure which part you're talking about there.

The same holds for the resources one can actually find within the boundaries of the CS, since those coal fields for example aren't that easy to access and much of it requires strip-mining destroying the landscape above it and quite a bit of that coal is beneath farmland so you aren't going to get both.

Let's look at each objection.
1. The coal fields aren't that easy to access...
... with our modern-day methods/technology, and our lower incentives.
The CS exact mining technology and techniques are never specified, but since the bulk of their society utilizes super high technology, I think it's much safer to assume that the CS is significantly better at extracting resources than we are with today's technology.
2. It requires strip-mining, destroying the landscape.
Well, that depends on which coal they're going for, and what techniques they use. Norther Illinois has a LOT of underground mines, which means that there's a lot of coal to be had that doesn't require strip-mining.
"In Illinois, the most accessible of the near-surface deposits have already been mined out. For the most part, future mining is expected to be underground."
In any case, I don't think that the CS would balk at strip-mining, even if it was necessary.

Those mega-cities also permanently tie up a LOT of resources, can't build something without using up non-reusable resources (since if you want that item you can't make something else with the same material).

Possibly, but I'd assume that they use up less materials than most big modern day cities, if you include suburbs and such, considering the sheer size of most modern cities.
And, depending on what materials they use, there might well be plenty to go around. Lots of clay in the Earth.

[keir451]

I want to thank KC for such a well researched and straightforward post. Well done Sir!
I will simply say that I agree with KC's conclusions and that the evidence as presented by the books supports his conclusions. There are as of yet, still untappped resources in the United States that we currently do not have the technology to access or are constrained from accessing by current political or economic restraints the CS does not neccessarily share.

[rat_bastard]

I will point out that KC listed the "Market Price" of the equipment which is vastly different than the cost to manufacture. While there are no official numbers on what a piece of CS gear costs to manufacture we can assume that it is a fraction of the market price, simply based on the description of their factories and the level of automation at their disposal.

[kaid]

How long their resources would hold out also depends what and how much nano tech from golden age sources they have access too. In theory if you have good nano tech you would be capable of highly efficient recycling. Take the broken down bot/samas throw it into ye olde nano vat break it into the component parts for construction of a new one.

We really have never had a lot of description of how any of the major forces do their manufacturing and limited references to resource gathering. We do know they have some access to nano tech but not really how much. In theory specialized nano tech could make for super efficient mining techniques kinda like the old mercury method only better and safer. Really the only real mention we have for the major powers factories is NG1 talking about how the northern gun uses more more people working in their factories and the CS is more automated.

Heck look at archie 3 sure he has some hidden factories but where are the resources to build all his bots coming from. The factories might be hidden but unless as I expect their mining tech is very different than what we see today his mining and resource gathering operations should be pretty visible.

Really it is almost impossible to make any predictions about what kind of resource consumption/production the major rift powers are capable of because clearly there is something very different happening than standard mining techniques.

[kaid]

Oh I also wanted to talk about the CS training of recruits in tanks/power armor and so many weapon types. Frankly this is not that surprising if you have a mostly illiterate recruit pool with zero or limited prior experience it makes sense to run them through all the simulators you have to see what they have talent for. It is probably one of the better ways of figuring out who has a better knack for piloting various things for future training.

This does not mean that every grunt is getting power armor or a vehicle at his whim but given the size of the power armor/robot forces in the CS it also probably not that rare for a basic grunt from the burbs becoming a RPA pilot during his military career.

As for the any weapon on request it probably works like the current armies of today. A lot of militaries have some non standard weaponry that is technically available upon request for missions. But for the more odd ball requests either you are filling out a lot of paperwork to get cleared for it or you are talking to Gunnery Sgt. Recruitchewer and explain to the kindly gentalman why a raw rookie really needs a pulse plasma cannon for his mission. Can they get any weapon for a mission yes but the question is will they and often they are just going to get the hairy eyeball from their superiors for being a twit.

[Commander]

I want to point out that Triax and NGR are ahead of the CS mainly Chi-Town and Lone Star by 30 or 40 years due to the different circumstances. That makes the CS leaders uneasy since Free Quebec has been trading tech with the NGR & Triax for years. Updated Rifts Ultimate Edition not to mention other source books show the NGR does not need CS to guard the merchandise but CS will guard the lanes and Ports. NGR has a Navy also. See Underseas Source book.

Also that the NGR and Free Quebec have done allot of joint projects. NGR & Triax are pretty invested in Free Quebec out of all of north america even its loosely CS allied states. NGR does trade with the CS but the ever paranoid CS leadership does not like foreign traders hence the trade agreement the CS established. NGR was benefiting too much from it. As was Triax.

Second i want to point out that soldiers have an idea once what they will be doing once they get out of Boot Camp then train for such. Yes you might have the ability to pilot power armor or Robot. Yet like most military's you will get rewarded for doing good jobs. The PC's are not the average soldiers.

Most soldiers are walking around or working with Skelebots on the ground until they prove they are worth putting into a UAR-I Or Spider Skull Walker not to mention Power Armor. Now if they are a SAMAS power armor pilot the focus or MOS is focused on that area so would start off with that. Likely a old suit since the new ones would be given to experienced pilots.

Soldiers have different duties or assignments. A team heavy weapons expert is not going to skip out on big guns. But if his team is engaged in reconnaissance or covert operations it would be best if he covered them. Every soldier should have a role. Leader Communications Heavy weapons medical ect.

Also i want to point out that militaries give the better equipment to the more experienced soldiers unless the older soldiers want to keep the old stuff as they identify with it or know it well.

One last point i keep seeing the CS juicer. So i will need to get the book since CS does not approve of Juicers. The one exception to the Juicer rule.

[rat_bastard]

Another note on raw materials, The Coalition is built on the bones of a civilization that had upwards of 10 billion people, was colonizing other planets and was mining asteroids. Even if their land is not the best mining territory they still had shattered cities and long forgotten landfills they could carve up, melt down and re-purpose as equipment for the CS. This does not even factor in the effects of MD materials and full environmental armor would have on mining.

[jaymz]

I do not believe that CS resources are limitless....I do believe they are vast enough that to this point they have never truly had a resource issue arise. Of any kind.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

One last point i keep seeing the CS juicer. So i will need to get the book since CS does not approve of Juicers. The one exception to the Juicer rule.

It's a complete 180. Going into the Campaign of Unity, the CS completely reversed course on Juicer technology.... they made entire battalions of Juicers out of 'Burb-volunteers. Those who volunteered for Juicer duty got preferred treatment for family members becoming CS Citizens, and those who decide to hitch on for the full ride get automatic citizenship for a certain number of family members. It was Joseph Prosek II that convinced his dad and the CS leadership to go this route - after all, they dont care if the 'Burb-volunteers die in job lots, and the "incentive" they are giving out to those men and women (citizenship for their family members) ALSO benefits the CS as they now have new, loyal, productive citizens that are even more likely to be loyal because of what it cost their family member to get that citizenship for them. (And, hey, gotta fill up that new Mega City at Waukeegan somehow).

Those who choose to stay on even after their life as a Juicer runs out are automatically transferred to duty as a Combat Cyborg.

There's special Juicer EBA armor (more MDC than the regular heavy armor), a special Juicer weapon (FIWS), all sorts of stuff.

Not-so-ironically, Free Quebec also makes extensive use of juicer technology. They had a ready-reserve of volunteers and a facility technically located outside of Quebec territory that can do hundreds of conversions at once; when they broke from the CS, they activated the "Liberty Reserve" and fielded an army of juicers.

[jaymz]

The Juicer Uprising went a long way to covincing them as well.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Heck look at archie 3 sure he has some hidden factories but where are the resources to build all his bots coming from. The factories might be hidden but unless as I expect their mining tech is very different than what we see today his mining and resource gathering operations should be pretty visible.

This is actually covered in Sourcebook 1: Revised (though im not a terribly big fan of the other content in the book, particularly the Replican Retcon (tm), the additional and retconned info on Archie is very useful) - the gist of the Archie retcon is that his main facility is actually nowhere near where the original SB1 placed it, it is in the appalachians. It's also not just one complex, its a series of complexes, in some cases separated by hundreds of miles, strung all along the mountains, connected by underground trains and tunnels. He is connected to all of them (though many are shut down/on maintenance power only as he has no use for them currently). At least one of those complexes is a mine where he gets most of the minerals he needs, and he is noted to have a few other mining operations outside of his original complex that he has built completely on his own - they are all deep underground and the only hint of their existence is the infrequent trips where his robots bring the materials back to his main complexes, and are therefore out in the open. That's part of what he designed the "Shemarrian Nations" to cover - its likely that anyone seeing the convoys from above would assume they are Shemarian operations of some kind, and/or be shot down/killed by said Shemarrians.

Then you get on to the... well, outside of precious metals that you'd need to circuitry/wiring....

just what resources exactly do you need to make ultra-tech stuff? As we've covered before, MDC materials likely dont contain much metal, if any. (Body armor certainly cant, if an entire suit of "heavy" CS MD armor weighs less than 20lbs) By and large the little evidence we have is that most MDC material is made of some kind of aggregate (stone) or silicate (clay or other ceramics), or synthetic materials that can by and large be created from very basic materials (like Kevlar or its MDC cousins that are used in mesh armors)... so a LOT of the resources you need to make ultra-tech stuff can probably be found just about anywhere on the planet. It's dirt and rocks, by and large.

Really it is almost impossible to make any predictions about what kind of resource consumption/production the major rift powers are capable of because clearly there is something very different happening than standard mining techniques.

I agree.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The Juicer Uprising went a long way to covincing them as well.

True, but IIRC, Jospeh Prosek II was behind the CS scheme that blew up to cause the Uprising through his proxy, Colonel Lyboc. So, in essence, he created the crisis that he then used to help sell his position.

He IS the head of propaganda, after all. And supposedly a savant at it.

[boxee]

Again unlimited effectively, in a setting that should not have them at all. What happened to humans on the edge? HANDWAVE.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again unlimited effectively, in a setting that should not have them at all. What happened to humans on the edge? HANDWAVE.

An America where the Coalition States is the primary power, and most is wilderness and monsters, IS on the edge, relatively speaking.
But yes, in a sense the entire setting is a Handwave.
It IS fiction, you know.

If humanity had been set back to whatever level you think would be appropriate, THAT would be just as much of a Handwave.

[Natasha]

Perhaps their greatest resource (which happens to be unlimited) is the utter lack of economics.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Perhaps their greatest resource (which happens to be unlimited) is the utter lack of economics.

The Economy is State-run, by and large. It's awfully hard to try to impose what we know of current economics on a society that produce almost everything it needs in automated factories, and, by and large, out of dirt.

[Natasha]

Yet there is still capital and labour and people needing water and food and circulation and consumerism and agriculture and arms manufacturers and rebels and trade and.......

[Alrik Vas]

That's because the resources do in fact exist. The government just controls it all and probably runs economics artificially. I would if i were the Proseks.

[Natasha]

The government can't control all of economy artificially without using economics. For instance, if you are going to replace supply/demand with government ukases then you still need to use economics (taxation, subsidies, and so on) to accomplish that. An endless string of Five Year Plans.

But they don't have to fuss with any of it because none of it exists.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

When the government can simply create money by entering a figure into the computer and pressing the equivalent of "enter", im not really sure that counts as "Economics".

Remember - the CS controls the entire Universal Credit network. They created it. They dont need to tax people to generate revenue. They just issue someone they need to pay a UC Credit Card with the payment on it - payment they just whisked up out of the ether. The whole thing is under their control, with no outside force to audit them - the banks aren't independent, they are part of the of the CS government.

[Natasha]

That's the main problem with a planned economy. The adjustments are abrupt and imperfect, highly tactical. In the case of money supply by pressing buttons, prices and wages and savings would become unstable. If your million credits can become ten overnight, then you're not going to use credits. Stability cannot be imposed by pressing buttons. Neither can many other things be controlled by pressing buttons. Famine, break downs, and so forth. But the CS doesn't have to worry about any of it, because it doesn't exist.

EDIT: In the end, we're saying the same thing. Either certain factors don't exist or the CS is infinitely capable and perfect in its management and forecasting of those factors. A house burns down, no problem. A bug destroys entire season of crops, no problem. Drought occurs, no problem.

[Commander]

Well most G.M.'s are not looking at whole economies but what players can or cannot have. Certain campaign's would not allow lets say a squad of CS soldiers to have magic or illegal magic items at the start. Also they are keeping track of towns that will help them. So CS not Cs ect it really boils down to each individual G.M.

My sense from the books and the years i spent ( i lost count 20 ? Bagh i forget) with palladium books is that the details should be worked out yet the books allow for flexibility. So it boils down to what is on hand and what places have it. Rifts is a wild land but one that has a realness to it. So i would think that the CS has a great deal of resources depending on what CS state or former state we are discussing as it depends on the region they live in thus how easy it is to get things.

If the CS had total control over the credit system then they would be able to tell every one each day what its worth. So instead of every one bartering people pay a fair value or get paid that value for goods. The Black market uses a credit system not to mention other systems since Rifts connects to so many worlds.

Its about supply or demand. The Splynn market is the only other place on Rifts Earth that anything has a price. So many kinds of payment systems. So it really comes down to what is worth a fair trade even who can get a good deal. You get what you pay for. Problem with the CS is that it is so paranoid about every one else it will not last too much longer then implode as the CS leadership grip tries to tighten.

Good example is Free Quebec. Had Chi-Town declared all out war on the Free Quebec allot of repercussions like a trade embargo by the NGR with Triax could have happened to NGR support. CS also would loose Free Quebec as an ally even a trade partner as well. CS and Free Quebec never got along well due to them having Glitter Boys. Not to mention joint projects with NGR ect as they see it as subverting the CS propaganda programming. Besides Free Quebec was a bit too independent for a CS state for Prosek tastes not to mention his loyal underlings.

So the Ability to create mine then gather the resources came from Pre-Rifts tech that most of it they understand. As i mentioned each campaign will depend on what is around or not. So the close you are to a city or place that can fix robots or high tech items the better.

I probably do not need to state the obvious why that is. So most people deal with things on a smaller scale. So if it has value people will barter or pay for it in credits. Value depends on what society it is as the Credit system has been around for some time now dating back to the Romans.

[boxee]

Again unlimited effectively, in a setting that should not have them at all. What happened to humans on the edge? HANDWAVE.

An America where the Coalition States is the primary power, and most is wilderness and monsters, IS on the edge, relatively speaking.
But yes, in a sense the entire setting is a Handwave.
It IS fiction, you know.

If humanity had been set back to whatever level you think would be appropriate, THAT would be just as much of a Handwave.

What I mean is I do not see the setting as humans on the edge anymore, there is just too many people around for that IMO.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again unlimited effectively, in a setting that should not have them at all. What happened to humans on the edge? HANDWAVE.

An America where the Coalition States is the primary power, and most is wilderness and monsters, IS on the edge, relatively speaking.
But yes, in a sense the entire setting is a Handwave.
It IS fiction, you know.

If humanity had been set back to whatever level you think would be appropriate, THAT would be just as much of a Handwave.

What I mean is I do not see the setting as humans on the edge anymore, there is just too many people around for that IMO.

What I mean is that the setting has always presented the Coalition as a powerful nation with incredible resources.
If that's not how you picture "humanity on the edge," then Rifts was never what you picture.

I agree that there are too many people on Rifts Earth these days, too many powerful nations and such, but the CS isn't part of the problem. They were always there.
Any fingers should be pointed at stuff that came out in later books.

[boxee]

Again unlimited effectively, in a setting that should not have them at all. What happened to humans on the edge? HANDWAVE.

An America where the Coalition States is the primary power, and most is wilderness and monsters, IS on the edge, relatively speaking.
But yes, in a sense the entire setting is a Handwave.
It IS fiction, you know.

If humanity had been set back to whatever level you think would be appropriate, THAT would be just as much of a Handwave.

What I mean is I do not see the setting as humans on the edge anymore, there is just too many people around for that IMO.

What I mean is that the setting has always presented the Coalition as a powerful nation with incredible resources.
If that's not how you picture "humanity on the edge," then Rifts was never what you picture.

I agree that there are too many people on Rifts Earth these days, too many powerful nations and such, but the CS isn't part of the problem. They were always there.
Any fingers should be pointed at stuff that came out in later books.

Powerful and resourceful yes. Effectively unlimited resources and manpower No. I agree later books and power creep played a major factor in what I see. I dislike that as written the players really have no real way to fix the major sources of evil, mainly the coalition and atlantis.

[Killer Cyborg]

Powerful and resourceful yes. Effectively unlimited resources and manpower No.

As effectively unlimited as they are now, more or less.
Very little has changed with the CS's overall capabilities over the years, although CWC did power-creep up their toys to catch up with the rest of the world.

I agree later books and power creep played a major factor in what I see.

I dislike that as written the players really have no real way to fix the major sources of evil, mainly the coalition and atlantis.

You dislike that the PCs have no real way to topple empires?
That's a pretty high standard for a RPG.

Then again, in Rifts you CAN make characters that powerful, with a permissive GM.

[flatline]

I have no issue with the fact that PCs can't topple a regional power on their own.

I do have an issue if the PCs can't topple a regional power after securing alliances with other regional powers.

Edit: for the record, I don't think the CS is unbeatable, but then, apparently, I've always had "permissive" GMs by forum standards in that they let us learn spells and use them.

--flatline

[Tiree]

PC's in general based on how the game was introduced: Should be major power players. These characters should be the cream of the crop. A 10, 20, maybe 30 to 1 advantage over standard Coalition Troops.

Why do I say this - Look at Vampire Kingdoms (1e), England, and Africa. There is a huge metaplot there that the players are supposed to be apart of. In England they are supposed to take out Merrlynn and Africa all of the Horsemen.

Now, I personally never had players use it or had GM's use it against me. But Rifts was darker and grittier when it first came out. Now, it's fairly light and cheery.

[flatline]

PC's in general based on how the game was introduced: Should be major power players. These characters should be the cream of the crop. A 10, 20, maybe 30 to 1 advantage over standard Coalition Troops.

Why do I say this - Look at Vampire Kingdoms (1e), England, and Africa. There is a huge metaplot there that the players are supposed to be apart of. In England they are supposed to take out Merrlynn and Africa all of the Horsemen.

Excellent point. I totally agree.

Now, I personally never had players use it or had GM's use it against me. But Rifts was darker and grittier when it first came out. Now, it's fairly light and cheery.

I'm not so certain I agree with this. Rifts remains relatively dark and gritty as long as you don't play characters that are part of the military of any medium or large power (like the CS). In fact, the enormous power creep that the CS has received over the years makes NA a darker place for anyone likely to be hunted by them.

--flatline

[boxee]

Powerful and resourceful yes. Effectively unlimited resources and manpower No.

As effectively unlimited as they are now, more or less.
Very little has changed with the CS's overall capabilities over the years, although CWC did power-creep up their toys to catch up with the rest of the world.

I agree later books and power creep played a major factor in what I see.

I dislike that as written the players really have no real way to fix the major sources of evil, mainly the coalition and atlantis.

You dislike that the PCs have no real way to topple empires?
That's a pretty high standard for a RPG.

Then again, in Rifts you CAN make characters that powerful, with a permissive GM.

Yes I dislike that, look at The American Revolutionary War the underdog toppled a much larger much more powerful enemy.

[Nightmask]

Powerful and resourceful yes. Effectively unlimited resources and manpower No.

As effectively unlimited as they are now, more or less.
Very little has changed with the CS's overall capabilities over the years, although CWC did power-creep up their toys to catch up with the rest of the world.

I agree later books and power creep played a major factor in what I see.

I dislike that as written the players really have no real way to fix the major sources of evil, mainly the coalition and atlantis.

You dislike that the PCs have no real way to topple empires?
That's a pretty high standard for a RPG.

Then again, in Rifts you CAN make characters that powerful, with a permissive GM.

Yes I dislike that, look at The American Revolutionary War the underdog toppled a much larger much more powerful enemy.

Well they didn't topple the British Empire, only drove them out of their territory. Of course they also had help from rivals to the British like the French since it was advantageous to them for the British lose (now if only there were others in North America for whom the toppling of the CS would have been advantageous when they attacked Tolkeen, instead of everyone just loving and adoring the CS with nary a reason in the world to want to harm them...).

[eliakon]

Powerful and resourceful yes. Effectively unlimited resources and manpower No.

As effectively unlimited as they are now, more or less.
Very little has changed with the CS's overall capabilities over the years, although CWC did power-creep up their toys to catch up with the rest of the world.

I agree later books and power creep played a major factor in what I see.

I dislike that as written the players really have no real way to fix the major sources of evil, mainly the coalition and atlantis.

You dislike that the PCs have no real way to topple empires?
That's a pretty high standard for a RPG.

Then again, in Rifts you CAN make characters that powerful, with a permissive GM.

Yes I dislike that, look at The American Revolutionary War the underdog toppled a much larger much more powerful enemy.

The American Revolution didn't topple anything. The REST of the Empire was just fine thank you very much, heck they couldn't even take Canada, let alone India, or Australia, or the Home Islands or.....
But yes, a well planned, rebellion, aided by other nations was able to liberate a colony. The players COULD be some of the founding fathers, and make the alliances, and train the forces needed to blunt a major power (like oh...help FQ Succeed) but that is different than "we took out the CS"

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes I dislike that, look at The American Revolutionary War the underdog toppled a much larger much more powerful enemy.

If you can find a group of like-minded people, you can always run that as a campaign.

[boxee]

Yes I dislike that, look at The American Revolutionary War the underdog toppled a much larger much more powerful enemy.

If you can find a group of like-minded people, you can always run that as a campaign.

I have thought about that, but have yet to get it started. Currently setting up a game irl in north america montana, I am setting it after the tolkeen war PA109. Writers block has been a problem, also a player that is trying to munchkin out with super powers is depressing.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

PC's in general based on how the game was introduced: Should be major power players. These characters should be the cream of the crop. A 10, 20, maybe 30 to 1 advantage over standard Coalition Troops.

How do you figure? Given that the PCs, "based on how the game was introduced", are on part with the OCCs of the bad guys, (which are in the same rulebook and even presented as options for PCs to play, as deserters, etc - in the RMB, "where the game was introduced") and that that same book illustrates that the CS alone has hundreds of thousands to millions of such people, i dont think it was ever presented that the PCs are somehow in the top .5%. How can they have a 20 to 30 to 1 advantage (and, moreover, how could you think they were presented as being that good, when one look at the OCCs shows that they are merely on-part with the bad guys, in the same rulebook) when they are generally speaking exactly the same OCCs.

Why do I say this - Look at Vampire Kingdoms (1e),

Vampires, as presented in 1e VK, aren't that tough for a prepared party (and wouldn't be that tough for a prepared enemy like the CS, in a stand-up fight); their primary power comes from being able to infiltrate society and corrupt and take control of it from within. You can hardly call them a menacing super-threat when a guy with a tanker truck and a hose can kill 40 or 50 of them at a go.

England, and Africa. There is a huge metaplot there that the players are supposed to be apart of. In England they are supposed to take out Merrlynn and Africa all of the Horsemen.

England, ill disagree completely; it is all completely couched in "maybe he will be revealed, maybe this, maybe that". The expectation is that PCs wont take on Merrlynn themselves and at best would play a role in revealing him and aiding a rebellion against him. Given the OCCs presented in the game to this point, there's no conceivable game-mechanical way they could go up against him and win, anyway.

In Africa, you're correct.. but look at the stats on the Horsemen. A few thousand MDC (at best), not particularly immune to much, and they dont do hundreds of MDC each attack. They're actually killable by PCs (or another group of people made up of PC-level OCCs) - hell, a party with a good giant robot could take one out with an LRM barrage in one go.

Now, I personally never had players use it or had GM's use it against me. But Rifts was darker and grittier when it first came out. Now, it's fairly light and cheery.

Ill agree that the setting isn't what it used to be. But, like KC said, that has little to do with the CS. It has to do with all of the crap that got added after. The CS was always there, from day 1, largely exactly as presented (huge army, nearly limitless resources).

I agree later books and power creep played a major factor in what I see.

That power creep has nothing to do with what resources the Coalition has, though. As KC has shown, their level of resources has been consistent since the RMB.

I dislike that as written the players really have no real way to fix the major sources of evil, mainly the coalition and atlantis.

They were never intended to be. They are both Setting McGuffins. They are designed to be bad-guy generators. If what you're looking for in an RPG is a game where the PCs are all world-shaking bad-asses, then Palladium isn't the company for you. As designed, their RPGs feature the PCs as slightly larger than life/slightly better than the average guy. One look at the fact that places are statted out with NPCs whose average level is 7+ (go look at Arzno, New West, Pecos Empire, etc) and its a pretty solid indicator that the PCs, while a step above "the average guy", are on-par with anyone else who has a non-"peasant/normal guy" OCC - even NPCs. They are a part of the top 15-20%, but not the top 1%, by design.

[boxee]

PC's in general based on how the game was introduced: Should be major power players. These characters should be the cream of the crop. A 10, 20, maybe 30 to 1 advantage over standard Coalition Troops.

How do you figure? Given that the PCs, "based on how the game was introduced", are on part with the OCCs of the bad guys, (which are in the same rulebook and even presented as options for PCs to play, as deserters, etc - in the RMB, "where the game was introduced") and that that same book illustrates that the CS alone has hundreds of thousands to millions of such people, i dont think it was ever presented that the PCs are somehow in the top .5%. How can they have a 20 to 30 to 1 advantage (and, moreover, how could you think they were presented as being that good, when one look at the OCCs shows that they are merely on-part with the bad guys, in the same rulebook) when they are generally speaking exactly the same OCCs.

Why do I say this - Look at Vampire Kingdoms (1e),

Vampires, as presented in 1e VK, aren't that tough for a prepared party (and wouldn't be that tough for a prepared enemy like the CS, in a stand-up fight); their primary power comes from being able to infiltrate society and corrupt and take control of it from within. You can hardly call them a menacing super-threat when a guy with a tanker truck and a hose can kill 40 or 50 of them at a go.

England, and Africa. There is a huge metaplot there that the players are supposed to be apart of. In England they are supposed to take out Merrlynn and Africa all of the Horsemen.

England, ill disagree completely; it is all completely couched in "maybe he will be revealed, maybe this, maybe that". The expectation is that PCs wont take on Merrlynn themselves and at best would play a role in revealing him and aiding a rebellion against him. Given the OCCs presented in the game to this point, there's no conceivable game-mechanical way they could go up against him and win, anyway.

In Africa, you're correct.. but look at the stats on the Horsemen. A few thousand MDC (at best), not particularly immune to much, and they dont do hundreds of MDC each attack. They're actually killable by PCs (or another group of people made up of PC-level OCCs) - hell, a party with a good giant robot could take one out with an LRM barrage in one go.

Now, I personally never had players use it or had GM's use it against me. But Rifts was darker and grittier when it first came out. Now, it's fairly light and cheery.

Ill agree that the setting isn't what it used to be. But, like KC said, that has little to do with the CS. It has to do with all of the crap that got added after. The CS was always there, from day 1, largely exactly as presented (huge army, nearly limitless resources).

I agree later books and power creep played a major factor in what I see.

That power creep has nothing to do with what resources the Coalition has, though. As KC has shown, their level of resources has been consistent since the RMB.

I dislike that as written the players really have no real way to fix the major sources of evil, mainly the coalition and atlantis.

They were never intended to be. They are both Setting McGuffins. They are designed to be bad-guy generators. If what you're looking for in an RPG is a game where the PCs are all world-shaking bad-asses, then Palladium isn't the company for you. As designed, their RPGs feature the PCs as slightly larger than life/slightly better than the average guy. One look at the fact that places are statted out with NPCs whose average level is 7+ (go look at Arzno, New West, Pecos Empire, etc) and its a pretty solid indicator that the PCs, while a step above "the average guy", are on-par with anyone else who has a non-"peasant/normal guy" OCC - even NPCs. They are a part of the top 15-20%, but not the top 1%, by design.

WOW not even worth responding to you.

[eliakon]

On the point of "PCs should be epic because they are supposed to take out the Horsemen" Yes PCs are supposed to take out the horsemen....with the help of thousands of other heros, the NGR Military, a Goddess......Hrm...maybe they ARNT supposed to just off them single hand, instead join others in an epic quest to defeat them?

[Nightmask]

On the point of "PCs should be epic because they are supposed to take out the Horsemen" Yes PCs are supposed to take out the horsemen....with the help of thousands of other heros, the NGR Military, a Goddess......Hrm...maybe they ARNT supposed to just off them single hand, instead join others in an epic quest to defeat them?

Except that the PC are supposed to be the ones guiding things and events to ensure the defeat of the Horsemen, because the PC are the protagonists of the story, the ones who make things happen. Without the PC events are such that without the GM just going 'well they lose anyway' then the world ends and the Horsemen win. If the PC are of no consequence and their actions have no value whatsoever such that by removing them everything still happens so that the bad guys lose (like the first Indiana Jones movie) then what's the point? Your characters are worthless, they have no impact on the setting at all, you don't get to make a name for yourselves or do anything important even in a story that supposedly relies on the PC to ensure things happen.

Sure they may or may not have what it takes as a group to directly take down one or more of the Horsemen but they're the ones organizing things and creating the alliances that pull together enough people to make it happen, which is why they're the heroes of the story. When people talk about that epic quest to stop evil they talk about the heroes who organized things and made it happen, retelling it to their kids and their kids kids as examples to live up to.

[eliakon]

On the point of "PCs should be epic because they are supposed to take out the Horsemen" Yes PCs are supposed to take out the horsemen....with the help of thousands of other heros, the NGR Military, a Goddess......Hrm...maybe they ARNT supposed to just off them single hand, instead join others in an epic quest to defeat them?

Except that the PC are supposed to be the ones guiding things and events to ensure the defeat of the Horsemen, because the PC are the protagonists of the story, the ones who make things happen. Without the PC events are such that without the GM just going 'well they lose anyway' then the world ends and the Horsemen win. If the PC are of no consequence and their actions have no value whatsoever such that by removing them everything still happens so that the bad guys lose (like the first Indiana Jones movie) then what's the point? Your characters are worthless, they have no impact on the setting at all, you don't get to make a name for yourselves or do anything important even in a story that supposedly relies on the PC to ensure things happen.

Sure they may or may not have what it takes as a group to directly take down one or more of the Horsemen but they're the ones organizing things and creating the alliances that pull together enough people to make it happen, which is why they're the heroes of the story. When people talk about that epic quest to stop evil they talk about the heroes who organized things and made it happen, retelling it to their kids and their kids kids as examples to live up to.

Except that the books DONT say that the PCs are the organizers of things. Just that they are involved. Sure they CAN be the organizers....or they can be little cogs, both work and both are equally supported by the books.

[Mack]

WOW not even worth responding to you.

If you are not going to contribute to the discussion, then don't post.

[Natasha]

Kind of wandered off topic of CS resources, too. The resources are arranged to form a powerful conventional military. The greatest threat is unconventional. I'll admit to not being keenly aware of CS geography but it seems to me that its bread basket is quite a bit detached from its population centers.

[Ed]

Kind of wandered off topic of CS resources, too. The resources are arranged to form a powerful conventional military. The greatest threat is unconventional. I'll admit to not being keenly aware of CS geography but it seems to me that its bread basket is quite a bit detached from its population centers.

Detached is a relative concept. If you're on foot 50 miles will take you all day. At Mach 1, you can commute Chi-town to Lone Star for a pre-lunch meeting.

[Natasha]

Still has to get from the field to the carriers.

[jaymz]

There had to be a reason that Tolkeen did not take aim at the farmlands of the CS. My GUESS would be there are very well defended.

[Natasha]

That's my guess, too, but probably arrived at from different assumptions.

[jaymz]

Personally, I'd be building super arcologies over the famr fields. Similar to the fortress cities but just fortress farms....

[Nightmask]

There had to be a reason that Tolkeen did not take aim at the farmlands of the CS. My GUESS would be there are very well defended.

Simply not possible, the kind of defense required to protect that much land when you're talking spells that have massive ranges when it comes to destroying landscape would preclude any hope of having troops left to assault Tolkeen with and have any chance of winning.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

There had to be a reason that Tolkeen did not take aim at the farmlands of the CS. My GUESS would be there are very well defended.

Simply not possible, the kind of defense required to protect that much land when you're talking spells that have massive ranges when it comes to destroying landscape would preclude any hope of having troops left to assault Tolkeen with and have any chance of winning.

Source? I've yet to see a single spell in Rifts that has a "massive range."

Also, the few times the farmlands are described... they are pretty well defended. Protection of such is one of the things the millions-strong ISS takes care of, as well as near-constant skelebot patrols (CWC, Aftermath, Lone Star, New West).

My guess as to why it wasn't done (if it would have even put a huge dent in the life of the average CS citizen, which i am highly dubious about - they have the resources to make Matrix Glop fairly easily and have years worth of emergency rations for the troops just based on the descriptions of the stores based on the vehicles they field, not even mentioning logical storehouses of such that simply aren't described) is for the same reason that even the CS doesn't let fly with the the real-deal nukes (and no one else does, not even the Federation of Magic and other big powers) -

once you let the genie out of the bottle, it isn't going back in. If they had devastated the CS Farmland thusly, the CS would have taken the gloves off; it would have switched from a war of conquest (they were trying to conquer the land, for its resources, as well as get rid of magic-using neighbors, remember) to one of total annihilation - the Tomahawks would have flown and there'd be a glowing crater where Tolkeen was.

NO one on Rifts Earth - not even The Bad Guys - wants to let that genie slip. No one.