Coalition Resources

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

WOW not even worth responding to you.

And yet you did, and not with a refutation of the facts i presented, but an ad-hominem attack that clearly demonstrates that you HAVE no counter argument.

I accept your back-handed attempt to admit you have no argument.

[Mack]

My interpretation is that Tolkeen didn't have enough forces to send more than a token amount that far south. Plus they'd have to avoid the CS armies which were encircling Tolkeen.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

On the point of "PCs should be epic because they are supposed to take out the Horsemen" Yes PCs are supposed to take out the horsemen....with the help of thousands of other heros, the NGR Military, a Goddess......Hrm...maybe they ARNT supposed to just off them single hand, instead join others in an epic quest to defeat them?

Except that the PC are supposed to be the ones guiding things and events to ensure the defeat of the Horsemen, because the PC are the protagonists of the story, the ones who make things happen.

Protagonists, sure, but that doesn't and never means that they are the sole-actors. The point of an RPG is to (cooperatively) tell a good story. A good story doesn't mean that the PCs have to be Big Damn Heroes. It means it has to be a good story.

Without the PC events are such that without the GM just going 'well they lose anyway' then the world ends and the Horsemen win.

Except that it is detailed in Aftermath that the Horsemen were defeated and there is no assumption that someone's PCs, in particular, were responsible. Just a "band of heroes" - there are bands of heroes in Rifts Earth that aren't "PCs". Maybe they handled it. Maybe the PC's helped them. For most people, Africa was never a focus for a campaign anyway.

If the PC are of no consequence and their actions have no value whatsoever such that by removing them everything still happens so that the bad guys lose (like the first Indiana Jones movie) then what's the point? Your characters are worthless, they have no impact on the setting at all, you don't get to make a name for yourselves or do anything important even in a story that supposedly relies on the PC to ensure things happen.

Why do you assume that the only way to have an enjoyable game is to radically alter the setting? If I ran a game where the party never left the 200 mile radius of their hometown, never got munchkin-able items, and never "had an impact on the setting", would this, automatically, be a bad game? No. If i tell a compelling story, we have compelling moments, that's what matters.

Sure they may or may not have what it takes as a group to directly take down one or more of the Horsemen but they're the ones organizing things and creating the alliances that pull together enough people to make it happen, which is why they're the heroes of the story. When people talk about that epic quest to stop evil they talk about the heroes who organized things and made it happen, retelling it to their kids and their kids kids as examples to live up to.

Epic is overused and overdone and is NOT the sole reason to play an RPG. In fact, after you've done the EPIC STORY a few dozen times, you grow up and get over it, and start enjoying stories for themselves, not because they were EPIC. Most of my best roleplaying moments have come from some very un-Epic games.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

My interpretation is that Tolkeen didn't have enough forces to send more than a token amount that far south. Plus they'd have to avoid the CS armies which were encircling Tolkeen.

There's that, too. With no guarantee that even if the mission succeeded it would affect the outcome of the battle at home, i rather doubt anyone at Tolkeen high command was rushing to deprive themselves of forces needed for the immediate fighting.

[boxee]

WOW not even worth responding to you.

If you are not going to contribute to the discussion, then don't post.

When anyone says dont buy the game since you dont matter they are only trying to start a fight, you I respect, you do not just say well then dont buy the game.

[eliakon]

There had to be a reason that Tolkeen did not take aim at the farmlands of the CS. My GUESS would be there are very well defended.

Simply not possible, the kind of defense required to protect that much land when you're talking spells that have massive ranges when it comes to destroying landscape would preclude any hope of having troops left to assault Tolkeen with and have any chance of winning.

Source? I've yet to see a single spell in Rifts that has a "massive range."

Also, the few times the farmlands are described... they are pretty well defended. Protection of such is one of the things the millions-strong ISS takes care of, as well as near-constant skelebot patrols (CWC, Aftermath, Lone Star, New West).

My guess as to why it wasn't done (if it would have even put a huge dent in the life of the average CS citizen, which i am highly dubious about - they have the resources to make Matrix Glop fairly easily and have years worth of emergency rations for the troops just based on the descriptions of the stores based on the vehicles they field, not even mentioning logical storehouses of such that simply aren't described) is for the same reason that even the CS doesn't let fly with the the real-deal nukes (and no one else does, not even the Federation of Magic and other big powers) -

once you let the genie out of the bottle, it isn't going back in. If they had devastated the CS Farmland thusly, the CS would have taken the gloves off; it would have switched from a war of conquest (they were trying to conquer the land, for its resources, as well as get rid of magic-using neighbors, remember) to one of total annihilation - the Tomahawks would have flown and there'd be a glowing crater where Tolkeen was.

NO one on Rifts Earth - not even The Bad Guys - wants to let that genie slip. No one.

I would say that any war that STARTS with a barrage of nuclear missiles, orders to take no prisoners, and death camps is sort of already 'kids gloves off'.

as for massive range. Blight of ages is pretty devastating. ESPECIALLY if you use TtGD.
two versions will follow
#1 lv 8 caster casts the spell.
-800' radius, + 800'x4x8 =26400' radius. or a circle more or less 10 MILES in diameter.
#2 Lv 5 caster, with TtGD proficiencies
-500' + 500'x4x5 =10,500'x 16 (double ritual specialist/ritual dependency) x 2 (casts on a ley line) = 127 MILE Diameter circle. Okay, one casting, and there went Nebraska.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

WOW not even worth responding to you.

If you are not going to contribute to the discussion, then don't post.

When anyone says dont buy the game since you dont matter they are only trying to start a fight, you I respect, you do not just say well then dont buy the game.

Seeing as i never said anything remotely like that..... Here's the line in question:

They were never intended to be. They are both Setting McGuffins. They are designed to be bad-guy generators. If what you're looking for in an RPG is a game where the PCs are all world-shaking bad-asses, then Palladium isn't the company for you. As designed, their RPGs feature the PCs as slightly larger than life/slightly better than the average guy. One look at the fact that places are statted out with NPCs whose average level is 7+ (go look at Arzno, New West, Pecos Empire, etc) and its a pretty solid indicator that the PCs, while a step above "the average guy", are on-par with anyone else who has a non-"peasant/normal guy" OCC - even NPCs. They are a part of the top 15-20%, but not the top 1%, by design.

... hmm, the words "you dont matter" are nowhere to be found!

Instead the message was: if that's what you're looking for from your RPGs, Palladium probably isnt the company producing products that would interest you, as that's not the kind of games they make. Heroes Unlimited is probably the single almost-exception (except that there are, of course, even in HU, huge organizations full of 10th+ level NPCs that are just like any Hero you create).

[Natasha]

There had to be a reason that Tolkeen did not take aim at the farmlands of the CS. My GUESS would be there are very well defended.

Simply not possible, the kind of defense required to protect that much land when you're talking spells that have massive ranges when it comes to destroying landscape would preclude any hope of having troops left to assault Tolkeen with and have any chance of winning.

Source? I've yet to see a single spell in Rifts that has a "massive range."

Also, the few times the farmlands are described... they are pretty well defended. Protection of such is one of the things the millions-strong ISS takes care of, as well as near-constant skelebot patrols (CWC, Aftermath, Lone Star, New West).

My guess as to why it wasn't done (if it would have even put a huge dent in the life of the average CS citizen, which i am highly dubious about - they have the resources to make Matrix Glop fairly easily and have years worth of emergency rations for the troops just based on the descriptions of the stores based on the vehicles they field, not even mentioning logical storehouses of such that simply aren't described) is for the same reason that even the CS doesn't let fly with the the real-deal nukes (and no one else does, not even the Federation of Magic and other big powers) -

once you let the genie out of the bottle, it isn't going back in. If they had devastated the CS Farmland thusly, the CS would have taken the gloves off; it would have switched from a war of conquest (they were trying to conquer the land, for its resources, as well as get rid of magic-using neighbors, remember) to one of total annihilation - the Tomahawks would have flown and there'd be a glowing crater where Tolkeen was.

NO one on Rifts Earth - not even The Bad Guys - wants to let that genie slip. No one.

Well topic is about CS resources, not the war, so that is the context in which I made the statement. However, in the context of war, guerrilla actions are cheap and effective.

Since no one wants to let the genie out of the bottle, perhaps the CS doesn't want to as well. Especially over imperialist ambitions. The rest of the world would take note.

[Nightmask]

My interpretation is that Tolkeen didn't have enough forces to send more than a token amount that far south. Plus they'd have to avoid the CS armies which were encircling Tolkeen.

You don't really need more than a token special mage team though to deal with the farmland, as is noted above Blight of Ages can destroy a lot of farmland and all you have to do is deliver a single mage with the spell and sufficient means to power it. A few casting here and there would be terribly destructive and would force the CS to have to pull troops in from other areas to protect their farmland. After all it's not just creating the issue of starvation to worry about, it's creating the terror of it and forcing the CS to divert troops to prevent further destruction.

So several small teams which would be hardest to stop attacking from a direction the CS can't plan for at something they felt was secure and now you've done a great deal for the war effort (or in revenge for that matter, after Tolkeen fell or just prior there definitely should have been revenge-minded sorts who'd have zero issues with starving the CS's illiterate citizens and soldiers).

[Killer Cyborg]

My interpretation is that Tolkeen didn't have enough forces to send more than a token amount that far south. Plus they'd have to avoid the CS armies which were encircling Tolkeen.

There's that, too. With no guarantee that even if the mission succeeded it would affect the outcome of the battle at home, i rather doubt anyone at Tolkeen high command was rushing to deprive themselves of forces needed for the immediate fighting.

And it wouldn't have hurt the CS army, only civilians.
It would be a poisoning of the well, the kind of thing that we consider to be war crimes now.
Although, granted, so would summoning an army of demons.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I would say that any war that STARTS with a barrage of nuclear missiles, orders to take no prisoners, and death camps is sort of already 'kids gloves off'.

They didn't open up with Tomahawks or any of their "Real" nukes. They never used them at any point during the war. The LRM "Nuclear Missiles" are (pointed out in.. CWC? There's a specific mention of it, i think KC already dug it up) specifically pointed out to be "clean" nukes that every major power or tech manufacturer can make. But pretty much only the CS and NGR, on the entire planet, use real-deal, full-up megaton-range nuclear missiles. Or, i should say, HAVE them. Neither power has ever used them. The CS is stated in CS Navy as being unwilling to use them (precisely because of the "genie out of the bottle" fear) except as a counter to a Splugorth invasion of North America.

So yeah, they opened up with a standard LRM bombardment. Take no prisoners and death camps still presume that the people have to be caught or brought to action in the first place. If the people of Tolkeen had simply .. i dunno, bailed out, the CS wasn't going to hunt the to the ends of the earth, at least not at the start of the campaign (afterwards, when their blood was up due to the Sorcerers Revenge... yeah, well, all bets are off).

If Tolkeen had "opened the bottle" as it were by massive defoliation, the CS might have just decided it wasn't worth it and saturated all of Tolkeens Baronies with Tomahawks and other full-up nukes. Other than Tolkeen itself, everything there would have been killed in one go. (Missiles that do thousands of MD to dozens/up to a hundred miles, and leave terrible radiation) That's what im talking about.

as for massive range. Blight of ages is pretty devastating. ESPECIALLY if you use TtGD.
two versions will follow
#1 lv 8 caster casts the spell.
-800' radius, + 800'x4x8 =26400' radius. or a circle more or less 10 MILES in diameter.
#2 Lv 5 caster, with TtGD proficiencies
-500' + 500'x4x5 =10,500'x 16 (double ritual specialist/ritual dependency) x 2 (casts on a ley line) = 127 MILE Diameter circle. Okay, one casting, and there went Nebraska.

The spell is centered on the caster, so the RANGE is 0ft. As in, you have to stand, right there, and cast the spell. A Spell of Legend, i might add, that costs SIX HUNDRED PPE. It's not like Tolkeen was overflowing dudes who knew this spell (maybe what.. a dozen, total?) and had 600 PPE on hand. They cant rely on eLey LInes down in CS territory - the farms and breadbasket of the CS are where they are BECAUSE they lack ley lines and monster activity.

I think your 10 Mile diameter is actually probably conservative, given that it's highly unlikely some 8th level schlub has access to a Spell of Legend... but...

The question of why this wasn't a viable tactic answers itself. Not enough guys to do it, to make a real impact, and not a very good chance that any of them would be able to do it more than once before the CS defenses in the area tracked them down and turned them into a memory.

And the Nightbane nonsense can stay in Nightbane. Once you make the assumption that everyone has access to everything in any Palladium book, the argument will just escalate into pure stupidity. Despite Palladium's claims of universal compatibility, some things are obviously not meant to be cross-game compatible.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

My interpretation is that Tolkeen didn't have enough forces to send more than a token amount that far south. Plus they'd have to avoid the CS armies which were encircling Tolkeen.

You don't really need more than a token special mage team though to deal with the farmland, as is noted above Blight of Ages can destroy a lot of farmland and all you have to do is deliver a single mage with the spell and sufficient means to power it. A few casting here and there would be terribly destructive and would force the CS to have to pull troops in from other areas to protect their farmland. After all it's not just creating the issue of starvation to worry about, it's creating the terror of it and forcing the CS to divert troops to prevent further destruction.

So several small teams which would be hardest to stop attacking from a direction the CS can't plan for at something they felt was secure and now you've done a great deal for the war effort (or in revenge for that matter, after Tolkeen fell or just prior there definitely should have been revenge-minded sorts who'd have zero issues with starving the CS's illiterate citizens and soldiers).

In response to the underlined: Why would they have to pull troops? The ISS has plenty of men (at least 1.55 million that are using SAMAS suits, so we can assume 2+ million ISS troops, + ISS assigned Dog Boys) and is responsible for the security of those areas; there is also no indication of any kind that the CS pulled any troops from garrison duty to attack Tolkeen. By all accounts (CWC, CS Navy, SoT) the large majority of the army sent against Tolkeen was created for just that during the huge build up during the Campaign of Unity. And there are the daily Skelebot patrols throughout the farmland (noted in some of the SoT books, in the same passage that notes that the 1st Apocalyptic Cavalry was also moving into the area and the CS was content to let them operate as it added even more security to the area) and ISS operations, garrisons, etc.

The area wasn't stripped of its defenders - in fact, it can be fairly accurately said that the CS effectively has a complete army that is ALWAYS at home - the ISS. They operate with military-grade hardware, receive the same training, and have the same resources the CS Army did prior to the big New Army reveal - including air-mobile power armor, skycyles, giant robots, APCs, etc. In effect, the CS Army can operate away from home indefinitely and effectively not have to worry that they left home "undefended" - that's what the ISS is for.

Further - im not convinced that they would starve anything. The spell doesn't make the land non-arable, so the CS could replant immediately, effectively. I doubt they are going farm-to-mouth, and i have no doubt they have substantial food stockpiles (they have to, if they are exporting food, which is listed as something they do extensively to nearby human communities and friendly nations).

So... provided they can weather one season of dead crops... it will have little to no real effect. And this is all assuming they cant make Matrix Glop to feed their people.

[eliakon]

I would say that any war that STARTS with a barrage of nuclear missiles, orders to take no prisoners, and death camps is sort of already 'kids gloves off'.

They didn't open up with Tomahawks or any of their "Real" nukes. They never used them at any point during the war. The LRM "Nuclear Missiles" are (pointed out in.. CWC? There's a specific mention of it, i think KC already dug it up) specifically pointed out to be "clean" nukes that every major power or tech manufacturer can make. But pretty much only the CS and NGR, on the entire planet, use real-deal, full-up megaton-range nuclear missiles. Or, i should say, HAVE them. Neither power has ever used them. The CS is stated in CS Navy as being unwilling to use them (precisely because of the "genie out of the bottle" fear) except as a counter to a Splugorth invasion of North America.

So yeah, they opened up with a standard LRM bombardment. Take no prisoners and death camps still presume that the people have to be caught or brought to action in the first place. If the people of Tolkeen had simply .. i dunno, bailed out, the CS wasn't going to hunt the to the ends of the earth, at least not at the start of the campaign (afterwards, when their blood was up due to the Sorcerers Revenge... yeah, well, all bets are off).

If Tolkeen had "opened the bottle" as it were by massive defoliation, the CS might have just decided it wasn't worth it and saturated all of Tolkeens Baronies with Tomahawks and other full-up nukes. Other than Tolkeen itself, everything there would have been killed in one go. (Missiles that do thousands of MD to dozens/up to a hundred miles, and leave terrible radiation) That's what im talking about.

I doubt that the Tolkeen defenders had the long view that 'hey its just US that are going to be killed, so hey its fine, we shouldn't fight fully since they might ohh....REALLY kill us instead of just kill us.

as for massive range. Blight of ages is pretty devastating. ESPECIALLY if you use TtGD.
two versions will follow
#1 lv 8 caster casts the spell.
-800' radius, + 800'x4x8 =26400' radius. or a circle more or less 10 MILES in diameter.
#2 Lv 5 caster, with TtGD proficiencies
-500' + 500'x4x5 =10,500'x 16 (double ritual specialist/ritual dependency) x 2 (casts on a ley line) = 127 MILE Diameter circle. Okay, one casting, and there went Nebraska.

The spell is centered on the caster, so the RANGE is 0ft. As in, you have to stand, right there, and cast the spell. A Spell of Legend, i might add, that costs SIX HUNDRED PPE. It's not like Tolkeen was overflowing dudes who knew this spell (maybe what.. a dozen, total?) and had 600 PPE on hand. They cant rely on eLey LInes down in CS territory - the farms and breadbasket of the CS are where they are BECAUSE they lack ley lines and monster activity.

I think your 10 Mile diameter is actually probably conservative, given that it's highly unlikely some 8th level schlub has access to a Spell of Legend... but...

The question of why this wasn't a viable tactic answers itself. Not enough guys to do it, to make a real impact, and not a very good chance that any of them would be able to do it more than once before the CS defenses in the area tracked them down and turned them into a memory.

And the Nightbane nonsense can stay in Nightbane. Once you make the assumption that everyone has access to everything in any Palladium book, the argument will just escalate into pure stupidity. Despite Palladium's claims of universal compatibility, some things are obviously not meant to be cross-game compatible.

okay, so we JUST keep the basic rifts stuff.
if your going to actually USE a weapon, then I would presume you will, oh....teach the spell to the mages that are going to go use it? Or maybe just make some scrolls? presto back to lv8 caster (again conservative) zapping everything with in 5 miles of where he is standing when he casts the spell. If you have higher level casters, or ley lines it gets REALLY bad.
Energy Spheres, and Scrolls can make the PPE a non-issue. And for a deployed military strategic weapon I am going to assume that those WILL get used. This isn't "line troops getting stuff" this is do or die, strategic weaponry strikes.

[Killer Cyborg]

The army that the CS threw at Tolkeen was composed primarily of new recruits from the burbs and such, IIRC.
It was only a couple million troop at most, which wouldn't deplete the regional armies.

[Killer Cyborg]

Any arguments about what Tolkeen should have done to attack the CS belong in this thread.

The thread that we are in is to discuss Coalition resources, not how to attack the Coalition.

[jaymz]

Any arguments about what Tolkeen should have done to attack the CS belong in this thread.

The thread that we are in is to discuss Coalition resources, not how to attack the Coalition.

And not only that, we know THEY LOST so they obviously did not do whatever it was that is being argued about for a reason.

[eliakon]

Any arguments about what Tolkeen should have done to attack the CS belong in this thread.

The thread that we are in is to discuss Coalition resources, not how to attack the Coalition.

And to bring the Blight of Ages back to this thread.....how about this
#1 we know Tolkeen had the spell
#2 we know that they didn't use it
#3 it seems likely that if it WOULD have been useful it would have been used
thus
The CS food resources ARE good enough that even even using the spell that the Tolkeen planners felt that it would not have stopped the CS.
That's scary when you think about it!

[jaymz]

Any arguments about what Tolkeen should have done to attack the CS belong in this thread.

The thread that we are in is to discuss Coalition resources, not how to attack the Coalition.

And to bring the Blight of Ages back to this thread.....how about this
#1 we know Tolkeen had the spell
#2 we know that they didn't use it
#3 it seems likely that if it WOULD have been useful it would have been used
thus
The CS food resources ARE good enough that even even using the spell that the Tolkeen planners felt that it would not have stopped the CS.
That's scary when you think about it!

Nicely turned around

[Killer Cyborg]

Any arguments about what Tolkeen should have done to attack the CS belong in this thread.

The thread that we are in is to discuss Coalition resources, not how to attack the Coalition.

And to bring the Blight of Ages back to this thread.....how about this
#1 we know Tolkeen had the spell
#2 we know that they didn't use it
#3 it seems likely that if it WOULD have been useful it would have been used
thus
The CS food resources ARE good enough that even even using the spell that the Tolkeen planners felt that it would not have stopped the CS.
That's scary when you think about it!

Nicely turned around

Yes, I would have to agree that's the indication.

[Natasha]

My interpretation is that Tolkeen didn't have enough forces to send more than a token amount that far south. Plus they'd have to avoid the CS armies which were encircling Tolkeen.

There's that, too. With no guarantee that even if the mission succeeded it would affect the outcome of the battle at home, i rather doubt anyone at Tolkeen high command was rushing to deprive themselves of forces needed for the immediate fighting.

The high command would not need to deprive themselves of forces needed for the immediate fighting. But yea, it's all moot though because apparently soldiers don't eat and starving civilians never influenced a government's policy neither did the French Revolution ever happen.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The high command would not need to deprive themselves of forces needed for the immediate fighting. But yea, it's all moot though because apparently soldiers don't eat and starving civilians never influenced a government's policy neither did the French Revolution ever happen.

Except there is no indication that doing so would have made the civilians starve, and it certainly wouldn't have had any effect on the Army, as they have years worth of e-rations stored and ready for field deployment.

[Natasha]

The high command would not need to deprive themselves of forces needed for the immediate fighting. But yea, it's all moot though because apparently soldiers don't eat and starving civilians never influenced a government's policy neither did the French Revolution ever happen.

Except there is no indication that doing so would have made the civilians starve, and it certainly wouldn't have had any effect on the Army, as they have years worth of e-rations stored and ready for field deployment.

No there isn't any indication they would starve, but there is no indication they would not. Assume the army has years of handwavium stored, starving civilians can and do change the course of history.

[flatline]

The biggest advantage the CS has is that the defenses of the fortress cities have never been detailed. You can't take the fight to the CS because, ironically, we don't have the stats for the relevant CS targets.

If the Chi-Town source book was published tomorrow, next week there would be a dozen different viable plans posted in this forum for reducing Chi-Town to rubble. Without Chi-Town specs, any campaign where the players successfully orchestrate the fall of the CS is dismissed because "The GM didn't play the CS right" or "That's only possible with such and such house rules".

--flatline

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

No there isn't any indication they would starve, but there is no indication they would not. Assume the army has years of handwavium stored, starving civilians can and do change the course of history.

Not an assumption; look at the descriptions in the books of vehicles and formations. Most of the vehicles have MONTHS of rations onboard for usually 3-4x the number of crew; APCs have said rations for a force they can carry.

and, i hate to trot out this oldie, but: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There's nothing to show that the CS is anything but eminently capable of feeding itself; if it's a nation that cant even go a single bad season without famine, then they probably wouldn't even be around.

Eliakon summed it up best:

And to bring the Blight of Ages back to this thread.....how about this
#1 we know Tolkeen had the spell
#2 we know that they didn't use it
#3 it seems likely that if it WOULD have been useful it would have been used
thus
The CS food resources ARE good enough that even even using the spell that the Tolkeen planners felt that it would not have stopped the CS.
That's scary when you think about it!

[/quote]

[Natasha]

Not an assumption; look at the descriptions in the books of vehicles and formations. Most of the vehicles have MONTHS of rations onboard for usually 3-4x the number of crew; APCs have said rations for a force they can carry.

SAMAS power armour: no food.
UAR-1 enforcer robot: no food.
Spider-skull walker: no food.
Mark V APC: no food.
Death's Head Transport: food for 288 soldiers for two weeks.
Sky cycle: no food.

Years worth of food storage? Months? For a million soldiers? Ok.

and, i hate to trot out this oldie, but: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There's nothing to show that the CS is anything but eminently capable of feeding itself; if it's a nation that cant even go a single bad season without famine, then they probably wouldn't even be around.

It cuts both ways. There is nothing that shows the CS is capable of feeding itself except for some starting rations and some rations in a DHT. And Game Master fiat, but that's not evidence.

All it takes is for one food crisis for things to spiral out of control. All it really takes is any crisis for things to spiral out of control, really.

Eliakon summed it up best:

And to bring the Blight of Ages back to this thread.....how about this
#1 we know Tolkeen had the spell
#2 we know that they didn't use it
#3 it seems likely that if it WOULD have been useful it would have been used
thus
The CS food resources ARE good enough that even even using the spell that the Tolkeen planners felt that it would not have stopped the CS.

#3 is a presumptive appeal to probability.
Thus, argument is invalid.

[jaymz]

Who says Tolkeen DIDN'T try this and fail? Let us keep in mind the books were about the war in Tolkeen territory not too mention this entire line of discussion is somewhat off topic to the OP.

[kaid]

Any arguments about what Tolkeen should have done to attack the CS belong in this thread.

The thread that we are in is to discuss Coalition resources, not how to attack the Coalition.

And to bring the Blight of Ages back to this thread.....how about this
#1 we know Tolkeen had the spell
#2 we know that they didn't use it
#3 it seems likely that if it WOULD have been useful it would have been used
thus
The CS food resources ARE good enough that even even using the spell that the Tolkeen planners felt that it would not have stopped the CS.
That's scary when you think about it!

Actually we don't know for sure they did not use it or something like it. One of the world books mentions a blight in I think Missouri or one of the CS states around there that seemed magical in nature that was effecting crop land. So while overall it did not appear to have that much impact overall it did look like at least some attempt to blight farmland happened.

[Ed]

Still has to get from the field to the carriers.

DHT's are VTOL capable and designed for hot LZs.

[Natasha]

Still has to get from the field to the carriers.

DHT's are VTOL capable and designed for hot LZs.

Which doesn't say anything about the field.

[Commander]

Or you do what most army's did back in the day then sow the fields with salt. Allot of non magic ways as the CS would be on alert for such as Dog-boys & Pis-Stalkers not to mention other CS military psychics would be on the look out for magic or super powered types. Heck you get some weed killer it kills plants. Or high tech weed killer with a few added chemicals.

[Nightmask]

Or you do what most army's did back in the day then sow the fields with salt. Allot of non magic ways as the CS would be on alert for such as Dog-boys & Pis-Stalkers not to mention other CS military psychics would be on the look out. Heck you get some weed killer it kills plants. Or high tech weed killer with a few added chemicals.

Except the CS wants the land for themselves, so leaving it a toxic wasteland is counter-productive. Plus there are a number of different mages and spells around that can clean up the environment so you're basically wasting the salt when someone like a Biomancer or Nature Shaman can come along and cast some spells and the land is pristine and fertile again.

[Commander]

Or you do what most army's did back in the day then sow the fields with salt. Allot of non magic ways as the CS would be on alert for such as Dog-boys & Pis-Stalkers not to mention other CS military psychics would be on the look out. Heck you get some weed killer it kills plants. Or high tech weed killer with a few added chemicals.

Except the CS wants the land for themselves, so leaving it a toxic wasteland is counter-productive. Plus there are a number of different mages and spells around that can clean up the environment so you're basically wasting the salt when someone like a Biomancer or Nature Shaman can come along and cast some spells and the land is pristine and fertile again.

CS would chase them off. I mean if you were clever thus tricking farmers into using said weed killer. CS hates all magic users. You would have to be pretty sneaky. So i do not see a Biomancer just running through the tulips to save the farmland. CS would shoot on sight to be safe then shoot again. If the mage is lucky he might get captured roughed up or locked up then let go.

The Mage cannot use ley lines nexus ect to throw off psychic sensitives who are trained to hunt down magic or power related use that they have trained for not to mention patrol for while near the borders or even deeper inside the CS. So the mage is quite detectable when they use magic of any kind.

Unless you have a way to keep such magic or powers undetectable then CS comes along hears farmers complaint about said mage as they will hunt them down chase them off ect. Thus the mage would compound his problem by not being able to do squat unless he want CS trying to blast him while he " Saves the land." I have to say it would be a pretty funny quest if it was an adventure.

[flatline]

Magic typically doesn't scale as well as technology.

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

Disclaimer: I'm not really a fan of destroying farmland. Much better to target the cities since infrastructure is concentrated there.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.


*a "rift," perhaps?

[eliakon]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.

And now you know what happened to earth. It fell through a planetary scale plot hole and has been out of touch with logical reality since.

*a "rift," perhaps?

[flatline]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.


*a "rift," perhaps?

It's only a problem if someone can bring in super-tech in large quantities. A party of 5, even with super tech, isn't going to seriously change the face of NA unless they're smart about leveraging their actions somehow. The 20:1 exchange rate for Earth credits to phase world credits means you can't just go to phase world and buy a bunch of stuff. Instead, you need trade goods that someone on Phase World will want (like weapons).

--flatline

[kaid]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.


*a "rift," perhaps?

Well the problem is unless you are in a place with a stable rift connection there is always a chance when popping open a rift you "dial a wrong number" and instead of where you thought it was going to go winds up being someplace really nasty with really antisocial denizens. Even shifters who are pretty much the experts in this sort of thing are only guaranteed of getting to a specific world if it is their home. And for that their target is that world and getting back to any particular spot is much much harder.

Now if you have a pyramid to work with it becomes a lot easier to target the location of choice and control the portals but this is primarily something you see with the splugorth in atlantis and the lemurian cities.

[Killer Cyborg]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.

*a "rift," perhaps?

It's only a problem if someone can bring in super-tech in large quantities. A party of 5, even with super tech, isn't going to seriously change the face of NA unless they're smart about leveraging their actions somehow. The 20:1 exchange rate for Earth credits to phase world credits means you can't just go to phase world and buy a bunch of stuff. Instead, you need trade goods that someone on Phase World will want (like weapons).

--flatline

A party of 5 with super tech that can go back and get more super tech can disrupt everything.
I'm betting that you, Flatline, could easily come up with a party of 5 relatively common races/OCCs from the Rifts books that could change the entire North American economy as presented in the books.

[guardiandashi]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.

*a "rift," perhaps?

It's only a problem if someone can bring in super-tech in large quantities. A party of 5, even with super tech, isn't going to seriously change the face of NA unless they're smart about leveraging their actions somehow. The 20:1 exchange rate for Earth credits to phase world credits means you can't just go to phase world and buy a bunch of stuff. Instead, you need trade goods that someone on Phase World will want (like weapons).

--flatline

A party of 5 with super tech that can go back and get more super tech can disrupt everything.
I'm betting that you, Flatline, could easily come up with a party of 5 relatively common races/OCCs from the Rifts books that could change the entire North American economy as presented in the books.

I could do it with the 1st thing that popped to mind.
hardware or operator, Class and 1 piece of "super tech" a (working) federation replicator

[Ed]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.


*a "rift," perhaps?

As evidenced by the CS actions against the Naurani, the importation of super-tech would likely face many of the same constraints as the wholesale teaching of spells.

[flatline]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.

*a "rift," perhaps?

It's only a problem if someone can bring in super-tech in large quantities. A party of 5, even with super tech, isn't going to seriously change the face of NA unless they're smart about leveraging their actions somehow. The 20:1 exchange rate for Earth credits to phase world credits means you can't just go to phase world and buy a bunch of stuff. Instead, you need trade goods that someone on Phase World will want (like weapons).

--flatline

A party of 5 with super tech that can go back and get more super tech can disrupt everything.
I'm betting that you, Flatline, could easily come up with a party of 5 relatively common races/OCCs from the Rifts books that could change the entire North American economy as presented in the books.

You're absolutely right. You've just described most of our serious campaigns. Setting up trade, however, is more difficult than simply equipping the party. I would consider such an effort to be an example of the now-bolded text above.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

With that in mind, use your magic to open a dimensional portal to Center, custom order some super sonic drones with an advanced dispersal mechanism and some serious bad ju-ju defoliant.

Ironically, anyone with access to dimension hopping magic has access to more advanced technology than the CS simply because they can go to Phase World (or wherever). The trick is being able to afford it.

THIS is one of (perhaps THE) biggest flaw in the setting of Rifts: there are no given reasons why any mage with the right spell couldn't open up an import/export business with another dimension.
If all it takes is knowing the right spell to get to Center or other worlds like that, the effects should be a LOT more visible on Rifts Earth.
It's a huge hole* in the plot of the setting.


*a "rift," perhaps?

As evidenced by the CS actions against the Naurani, the importation of super-tech would likely face many of the same constraints as the wholesale teaching of spells.

Once they got big enough, yes.
But it would take a long time for them to become that big of an operation.
I'm talking more about large numbers of small-time operators, and they'd have to operate outside of CS territory.

Of course, other arms manufacturers might well take the same stance, so that is something to think about.
But I'd expect that arms dealers overall would be more interested in reselling superior goods at high prices than in trying to wipe out potential suppliers of such goods.

[Alrik Vas]

Slightly off topic, but is there nothing in the setting of phase world that suggests Center has oversight and control of who comes, who goes and what items they arrive and leave with?

In order for commerce to continue and for Center to survive as a credible market, wouldn't they have to very closely make sure people didn't go bringing tech out to places where it would cause an enormous problem? I mean, isn't it similar to dispatching glitter boys against conventional forces, or sending a CS platoon to flatten a D-bee village?

[Commander]

Also if people look up in the Rifts or Rifts ultimate edition it would be hard to pop open a Rift in farmland. At night they will see you. Also not to mention every Psychic CS patrol in a mile or SAMAS might even spot you to Robots. The more you do it, the more you will get caught. Psi-Stalkers and Dog boys also could chance on the site you used even wait for you.

So like bank robbers opening portals would be a bad idea as the cops or CS would get you when you use the same spot nabbing the perps. Thus doing it at a ley line or outside of CS area would be better for stability not to mention safety wise. Even if they were porting in new tech unless its disguised as Rifts Earth tech(CS NG knock offs) Then its useless to try to sell it to people who would distrust such items.

Its a good chance in more foot traffic areas like roads or trails a CS patrol might happen on you then arrest you even kill them as they step out of the Rift. Remember they hate magic aliens and strangers selling strange stuff that does not look normal. It will have a CS patrol flying in to investigate later, as the farmer makes a quick call to the nearest CS base.

So that is allot to consider. Ley lines also lay far away according to Rifts . Also you might let something in you were not suppose to thus having a battle against a monster or demon ect when you were trying to get the Right Rift for Phase world.

[Nightmask]

Slightly off topic, but is there nothing in the setting of phase world that suggests Center has oversight and control of who comes, who goes and what items they arrive and leave with?

In order for commerce to continue and for Center to survive as a credible market, wouldn't they have to very closely make sure people didn't go bringing tech out to places where it would cause an enormous problem? I mean, isn't it similar to dispatching glitter boys against conventional forces, or sending a CS platoon to flatten a D-bee village?

Considering random rifts drop people inside Center all the time what control over transit we see is limited. While they can shut down entire sections of the mega-city from making use of its Rift gates they don't really put any effort into any kind of control of what goes through. They definitely don't have an 'we must protect the primitives from advanced technology or magic' mandate of any sort. The Promethians are indifferent and let the various layers manage themselves however they wish for the most part and I don't think any layer of Center is governed by a group that forbids or blocks transport of things to places where it could be destabilizing or unbalanced.

[eliakon]

Slightly off topic, but is there nothing in the setting of phase world that suggests Center has oversight and control of who comes, who goes and what items they arrive and leave with?

In order for commerce to continue and for Center to survive as a credible market, wouldn't they have to very closely make sure people didn't go bringing tech out to places where it would cause an enormous problem? I mean, isn't it similar to dispatching glitter boys against conventional forces, or sending a CS platoon to flatten a D-bee village?

Considering random rifts drop people inside Center all the time what control over transit we see is limited. While they can shut down entire sections of the mega-city from making use of its Rift gates they don't really put any effort into any kind of control of what goes through. They definitely don't have an 'we must protect the primitives from advanced technology or magic' mandate of any sort. The Promethians are indifferent and let the various layers manage themselves however they wish for the most part and I don't think any layer of Center is governed by a group that forbids or blocks transport of things to places where it could be destabilizing or unbalanced.

Infact they seem to be pretty apathetic to the point that it is mentioned that people comment about the LACK of oversight they have. As long as your not trying to bring in doomsday devices into the city they seem pretty uncaring.

[Alrik Vas]

Promethean indifference: the most destructive force in the megaverse.

[rat_bastard]

Source? I've yet to see a single spell in Rifts that has a "massive range."

All of the Teleport spells, all of the Summon and Control Weather spells, Death Curse and Summon Ally.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think we may be straying from the original topic again.

[jaymz]

So far nothing has been shown to indicate the CS is anywhere in the vicinity of being near an issue with resources. We can only go on what we have. Anything is pure guesswork, wishing and speculation. I'd say wait to see what Megaverse in flames brings in that regard THEN maybe we could get a better handle on it.

Let us also not forget the seemingly limitless resources of Triax and the NGR who have had a decade long ongoing hostile relationship with the Gargoyle Empire.