Refitting next generation mecha with SMLH fusion?

[Seto Kaiba]

you might be surprised. Turbines are a part of the engine (used in the pump). Nor is a rocket engine as forgiving with fuel as you think.

Oh, I'm entirely familiar with the X-15 design... there's actually a little model of it sitting on the shelf above my desk next to a Northrop YB-49 and a North American XB-70 Valkyrie. My point stands, on that particular matter though. Rocket engines are, in general and in particular, more forgiving of the sort of design changes you're talking about by dint of being rather less complex. There's also a huge gulf of difference between an EXPERIMENTAL PLANE and a production one. Namely, the experimental aircraft are designed with the expectation that they WILL be modified, sometimes extensively, and a great deal of custom tooling goes into each modification. The same cannot be said for a production aircraft.

I have to disagree here. What we have seen is just the opposite. That it is versatile in implementation isn't odd either on the surface (look at the way Hydrogen can be utilized, combustion, fusion, non-combustion chemical reactions, in thermal heating type rocket engines it IS THE working fluid of choice). That isn't to say PC doesn't have some radical uses (BMI), but it also seems to have some very relatable approaches.

We've only seen one implementation of protoculture as a fuel source though... and that's the use in a reflex power system. We don't see, for instance, a protoculture turbine, or a protoculture combustion engine. You're digging up a false parallel between protoculture and petroleum.

If the OSM baseline is considered, the UEEF mecha are basically using PC as if it was in a fuel cell. And there are different types of fuel cells.

That's a big IF there... there's nothing we've yet encountered to suggest that the other reflex power systems don't work the same way. We could go in circles on this one all week long, since protoculture has always been a poorly explained and internally inconsistent bit of plot spackle.

SDF:M applications would boil down to a form of nuclear fusion. That's if one uses the OSM to get an idea of what's going on. Even w/o it's interpretation, we can see PC can be used in a more "conventional" sense, but there are times it is more "exotic".

Well, nuclear fusion in a 10+ dimensional spacetime pocket... but yes. The obvious difference here is that Harmony Gold has gone out of its way to draw the parallel there... which is something that they haven't done with the Alpha.

But what official material has actually come out since the March 2008 1st printing of the 2E RPG? Art of the Shadow Chronicles has 2007 date in the copy right. The Infopedia is seldom touched, even to add actual new material (or even correct typos like the one noticeable in the Shadow Fighter File).

There have been changes and updates to the Infopedia with material from the Macross Saga source book... which, I'll remind you, went to print AFTER the core book.

[ShadowLogan]

The same cannot be said for a production aircraft.

I disagree here. Production aircraft are going to be modified during their lifetime to use new hardware. That is a simple fact realistically speaking unless the design is expected to have a very short lifespan.

We've only seen one implementation of protoculture as a fuel source though... and that's the use in a reflex power system. We don't see, for instance, a protoculture turbine, or a protoculture combustion engine. You're digging up a false parallel between protoculture and petroleum.

No we see it in several forms:
-Reflex Furnace from TMS
-Bio Magnetic Induction Network (this is the only way out there form, it's propulsion, but it also seems to be the "source" of its power given dialogue)
-Alpha & Beta Veritech Fighters. They don't have any props or open rotors, so they are using some form of jet propulsion and not a BMI. I don't recall any indication they actually use Reflex Furnaces in dialogue.
-Cyclone engine pretty much behaves and looks like one would expect a combustion engine on a motorcycle IMHO. Ditto the lack of someone saying it has a reflex furnace.

That's a big IF there... there's nothing we've yet encountered to suggest that the other reflex power systems don't work the same way. We could go in circles on this one all week long, since protoculture has always been a poorly explained and internally inconsistent bit of plot spackle.

That's the problem though, alot of this comes down to how individuals view/see PC working w/the available information. I don't think we can even be sure that the UEEF mecha are using PC in a Reflex Furance. "Seperate Ways" has a trio of PC canisters explode, so we know it is possible to use PC in a manner similar to other combustible materials.

There have been changes and updates to the Infopedia with material from the Macross Saga source book... which, I'll remind you, went to print AFTER the core book.

Granted, but do they go out of their way to keep everything up to date in the infopedia. The Shadowfighter is referred to as the -6X AND -6S in the same entry, and it has been that way for many years prior to that. Until something forces the issue, it may be omission on their part or Palladium's Fusion system doesn't need to be said, because it is just the "manual impulse" mentioned in the show available to both the Beta and Alpha in "Annie's Wedding" that did not use PC with it just boiling down to terminology (Impulse Engine sounds to much like a ripp-off of Star Trek, at least a fusion system is generic enough to not seem that way from a terminology aspect, though canon to dialogue cues is another matter).

[Seto Kaiba]

I disagree here. Production aircraft are going to be modified during their lifetime to use new hardware. That is a simple fact realistically speaking unless the design is expected to have a very short lifespan.

Yes, but the point is that the modifications to a production aircraft are seldom so radical as to radically redesign the whole propulsion system. That's usually a bridge too far for a production program. You can design an upgraded engine or a new engine that connects to the existing stations, but it's the same technology being installed.

Granted, but do they go out of their way to keep everything up to date in the infopedia.

True, but they made a conscious effort to update the Infopedia with material that also appeared in the RPG and they left the stuff about the Alpha's backstory out. You can't get around that fact.

[mech798]

The problem with refitting a craft that used protoculture is that if we go by the common belief's regarding protoculture it's lighter and also doesn't produce the same type sof radiation as a conventional nuclear readction. So even if we're assuming P+b11 or another aneutronic style reaction, conventional reactors are going to need more shielding, and more fuel-- and that shielding will have to be a very specific shape that may not work if you're engine space is designed for several protoculture canisters that can be stuck in wherever.

You might be able to , but it'd likely be a project only a little less expensive than just buiding a new model.

[Seto Kaiba]

The problem with refitting a craft that used protoculture is that if we go by the common belief's regarding protoculture it's lighter and also doesn't produce the same type sof radiation as a conventional nuclear readction.

Eh... that's one assumption I think we can rule out. Here's why:

If we operate under the assumption that protoculture power systems are advantageous because they're much lighter than a nuclear fusion reactor, shouldn't the much larger VF-1 also be much heavier than the Alpha instead of being three and a half tonnes lighter? Even carrying 1,410L of liquid metallic hydrogen*, a fully-fueled VF-1 is still a whopping 2,250kg lighter than an empty Alpha fighter and its engine systems are at least two times the size of a Alpha's... though the engine to body volume ratio is WAY higher on the Alpha than the VF-1.

*1,410L is the internal tank capacity given for the VF-1 in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Volume 2. Liquid metallic hydrogen is almost exactly 10 times as dense as the OSM VF-1's preferred fuel of slush hydrogen, weighing approximately 0.85kg/L instead of 0.085kg/L.

So even if we're assuming P+b11 or another aneutronic style reaction, conventional reactors are going to need more shielding, and more fuel-- and that shielding will have to be a very specific shape that may not work if you're engine space is designed for several protoculture canisters that can be stuck in wherever.

The preferred fuel isn't specified in canon, but as Harmony Gold is prone to copying the OSM whenever possible it'd likely be hydrogen-hydrogen fusion. The RPG's preferred type is hydrogen-hydrogen fusion using superdense liquid metallic hydrogen instead of the slush hydrogen of the Macross 'verse. It would appear that advanced materials solved the problems of shielding handily.

One area where the Alpha would definitely come up short would be fuel capacity... as almost none of its internal volume is set up to hold fuel (the only place it could even store the stuff is in the center of the wing, based on official cutaways.)

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, but the point is that the modifications to a production aircraft are seldom so radical as to radically redesign the whole propulsion system. That's usually a bridge too far for a production program. You can design an upgraded engine or a new engine that connects to the existing stations, but it's the same technology being installed.

Granted. But we know propulsion systems get updated. We also know that production vehicles do receive modifications (some experimental, some limited use). The F-20 is a derivative of the F-5 design (and is described as an improved version of the F-5E). The F-20 was slated for production, but had no buyers. So we have an example of a production design modified for production uses (admit never happened, but the intent was there) that changed its engines from dual to single. The NF-104, a trio of modified F-104As that include an RCS, rocket engine (bi-propellant, H202 oxidizer, JP-4 fuel likely also used for the jet engine), and other changes was used for astronaut training.

It really depends on how different PC engine/power plants are to nuclear fusion examples to TPTB, it ranges from being as simple as changing out certain components to changing out the entire assembly. Given the newness of PC when the Alpha was designed, it may be reasonable the UEEF tested (and designed) the Alpha in both SLMH and PC configurations in case the PC aspect wasn't ready for primetime/mature enough. It also makes sense if the test articles used different engines they would want to update all to the same standard. After all some designs when selected in the real world have their CHOICE of engines to choose from (ex. YF-22 did demonstrate with both GE and P&W engines, once selected the YF-22 prototypes where both switched to the same engine standard).

EDIT: And lets not forget that sometimes experimental designs become production vehicles and are modified. The YF-22 and its engine was modified from the design selected in April of 1991 to become the F-22. And of course the X-35's became the F-35, and comes in 3 versions, one of which has a drastically different engine arrangement than the other two.

True, but they made a conscious effort to update the Infopedia with material that also appeared in the RPG and they left the stuff about the Alpha's backstory out. You can't get around that fact.

And yet they still miss the typo in the Shadow Fighter file. And as I suggested, Palladium's fusion system does have some precedent in the 85ep as a re-termed "Impulse" drive, that all the Alpha and Beta files lack mentioning anything about yet is in the show.

If we operate under the assumption that protoculture power systems are advantageous because they're much lighter than a nuclear fusion reactor, shouldn't the much larger VF-1 also be much heavier than the Alpha instead of being three and a half tonnes lighter?

No:
-1st. The Alpha has 6 large engines, to the VF-1s two (the backpack unit trio is the size of one of these engines). And each engine is going to contribute to the mass. While later Shadow Models drop two of them, the mass could be returned due to the Shadow System and other "stealth" aspects.
-2nd. The Alpha may be using less costly materials to achieve the same as a lighter, but more costly material (or even harder to work with). Plus the UEEF seems to be more durable as main characters did not lose limbs regularly (Rand lost a few in ep85, but Rick lost what x2 that?).
-3rd. The Alpha features 68 internal/conformal missile launchers. Each of which is going to contribute weight that the usual VF-1 models (A/J/S) does not have to account for as it does not have a similar system (you have the tubes, the doors and their control mechanisms, you have to make sure the blast plate is strong enough or have an ejection system, you have to have additional wires run to control them, you have a feed mechanism for the head stations, etc).
-4th. Also on the unaccounted for aspect is the Cyclone storage bay, there is a lift system to raise the Cyclone out. That will add weight the VF-1 doesn't have to contend with.
-5. While the VF-1 has swing wing assembly may be heavier than the Alpha's folding wing gear.

One area where the Alpha would definitely come up short would be fuel capacity... as almost none of its internal volume is set up to hold fuel (the only place it could even store the stuff is in the center of the wing, based on official cutaways.)

They have options though to modify the Alpha. (Then again they could skip the Alpha and just go straight to using the Beta since it would be easier to modify).

They could replace the VTOL engines with fuel tanks as on the Shadow version (those engines are dropped after all). We know the plumbing can get fuel to the location in the baseline units, so it is not unreasonable for them to get fuel out of the location. Exact quantity depends on the volume of the engine cavities converted.

Some of the Alpha's conformal launchers could also be sacrificed (and they are for the most part near the engine anyway, so plumbing is going to be minimal). Likely the inner leg launchers since they can't be fired in jet mode. I almost want to add the forearm stations (one or both per arm). Exact quantity gained will be limited by the size of the missiles carried and traded for fuel.

The Super Shadow Fighter's conformal tanks may also be applicable for using external tanks.

And as I've said in the past. The Cyclone Bay. This requires some plumbing additions, but can't be ruled out. The cavity alone should offer about 1,000liters based on the volume of a Cyclone.

[Seto Kaiba]

Granted. But we know propulsion systems get updated.

Nobody's disputing that... the problem is that propulsion systems are almost invariably updated with an improved version of the same technology, not a radically different technology altogether. Modifying an Alpha to use fusion would be every bit as complex, involved, and time-consuming as modifying a diesel truck into a battery-electric one. Perhaps moreso, since conventional vehicles normally don't change their shape...

It really depends on how different PC engine/power plants are to nuclear fusion examples to TPTB, it ranges from being as simple as changing out certain components to changing out the entire assembly.

All told, there's no evidence to suggest the two technologies are even remotely similar... especially in light of the UEEF's apparent belief that it's an all-or-nothing thing getting the protoculture matrix back.

Given the newness of PC when the Alpha was designed, it may be reasonable the UEEF tested (and designed) the Alpha in both SLMH and PC configurations in case the PC aspect wasn't ready for primetime/mature enough.

It might be, but it's highly doubtful considering 1. the pants-on-head idiocy of the Earth Forces and 2. the way they hate deviating from the original designs. The YF-4 could just as easily have been the non-protoculture rival to the Alpha.

And yet they still miss the typo in the Shadow Fighter file. And as I suggested, Palladium's fusion system does have some precedent in the 85ep as a re-termed "Impulse" drive, that all the Alpha and Beta files lack mentioning anything about yet is in the show.

Impulse doth not necessary imply nuclear fusion... in fact, most applications of it don't involve it at all.

-1st. The Alpha has 6 large engines, to the VF-1s two (the backpack unit trio is the size of one of these engines). And each engine is going to contribute to the mass.

Eh... only two of them are "large", and that's only "large relative to the mass of the Alpha". The main turbines on the Alpha are a good deal smaller than the ones on the VF-1, both in engine diameter and length. The sub-engines in the fighter's forearms and underside are smaller than even the rockets on the VF-1's backpack... and have only about 1/2 the power at that. Strictly speaking, even adding all those engines together, they fall short of equaling the VF-1's turbines by about 40%.

-2nd. The Alpha may be using less costly materials to achieve the same as a lighter, but more costly material (or even harder to work with). Plus the UEEF seems to be more durable as main characters did not lose limbs regularly (Rand lost a few in ep85, but Rick lost what x2 that?).

The first part is possible, but there's no evidence to support it. The second part is largely contingent upon the circumstances of combat. Limb loss is extremely rare in both sagas, but the Bernard party's forces never really come up against stiff resistance, so it's hard to compare.

-3rd. The Alpha features 68 internal/conformal missile launchers.

So what? The missiles are TINY, short-ranged ordinance barely better than man-portable rockets... it doesn't add significantly to the mass of the aircraft.

-4th. Also on the unaccounted for aspect is the Cyclone storage bay, there is a lift system to raise the Cyclone out. That will add weight the VF-1 doesn't have to contend with.

Cyclones aren't that heavy... try again. Even WITH the cyclone, the difference is pocket change (just 132kg on top of 16,700... only about 1/10th of what the VF-1 carries in fuel alone).

-5. While the VF-1 has swing wing assembly may be heavier than the Alpha's folding wing gear.

Uh... no. Just no. The VF-1's wings have to be variable sweep across a large angle, which entails a good deal of mechanical complexity. The Alpha's much smaller delta wing only folds 90 degrees, with zero need to stop anywhere in the middle.

[ShadowLogan]

All told, there's no evidence to suggest the two technologies are even remotely similar... especially in light of the UEEF's apparent belief that it's an all-or-nothing thing getting the protoculture matrix back.

I disagree, where did these fusion designs come from though. How much of the UEDF fusion technology is based in-part on the technologies carried w/n the SDF-1? While humans know about fusion and such, there is no indication humans had practical fusion technology before the SDF-1 arrived. (IINM it is in MB1 or FTS comic that fusion was only possible because of RTnology).

It might be, but it's highly doubtful considering 1. the pants-on-head idiocy of the Earth Forces and 2. the way they hate deviating from the original designs. The YF-4 could just as easily have been the non-protoculture rival to the Alpha.

That the UEDF can do stupid things I do not dispute. The YF-4 could also just have easily been left as a non-transformable fighter related to the Conbat.

And with the Alpha though, they already HAVE to deviate from the original designs to some extent since HBT was turned into PC. This would allow HBT-type system to return.

Impulse doth not necessary imply nuclear fusion... in fact, most applications of it don't involve it at all.

I agree it doesn't have to refer to fusion. The problem is no one really clarifies what the Impuse propulsion system actually is on the Alpha and Beta. Not in the 85ep, and not in the infopedia files (or in the AotSC). Given (lack of) official explanation of what Scott refers to it could be taken as simply fusion like the RPG did, or it could be some other system, but the show does give the Alpha and Beta a secondary energy source apparently.

The sub-engines in the fighter's forearms and underside are smaller than even the rockets on the VF-1's backpack...

Using the mecha size comparison chart at RT.com, the engines in the legs are similar width. The ones in the arm are the same basic size as the backpack unit (width and length). So it is fair to say the arm engine is larger than a back-pack engine in their respective modules.

The first part is possible, but there's no evidence to support it.

Nothing to support it, nothing to deny it either. Its not like anyone in the show goes into a materials lesson on a given mecha.

Limb loss is extremely rare in both sagas, but the Bernard party's forces never really come up against stiff resistance, so it's hard to compare.

While Limb loss is rare, the VF-1 gets hit with it more than the Alpha. Rand lost both arms IIRC in one incident. Rick over 3 incidents lost 4 arms (VT-1D, VF-1J, VF-1S both arms). Another VF-1 by a secondary pilot is also shown to lose a limb at least once (I can't think of anything to show an Alpha losing additional limbs off hand).

So what? The missiles are TINY, short-ranged ordinance barely better than man-portable rockets... it doesn't add significantly to the mass of the aircraft.

I'm not counting the missile. I'm looking at the carriage mechanism each missile would use. Individually they aren't much, but they can add-up.

To illustrate, lets treat each missile and its conformal launcher being equivalent to a Stinger Missile in it's man-portable launcher. The missile has a mass of 10.1kg, and the launcher with missile 15.2kg (values per wikipedia). That means for 68launch stations, an Alpha would be packing (15.2-10.1)kgx68 = 346.8kg the VF-1 doesn't have to account for.

Cyclones aren't that heavy... try again. Even WITH the cyclone, the difference is pocket change (just 132kg on top of 16,700... only about 1/10th of what the VF-1 carries in fuel alone).

Cyclones themselves are not heavy, but how massive would the lift system and its associated parts for the bay contribute to the dry mass? Especially if the bay is rated for mass more than the Cyclone (2E RPG allows it to life nearly x2 a Cyclone's mass).

In any case these options are not necessarily intended to find 3tons in one spot, but show what could contribute to it in multiple places since the Alpha is a highly complex machine with various systems and parts, and not all of them are found in a VF-1.

Uh... no. Just no. The VF-1's wings have to be variable sweep across a large angle, which entails a good deal of mechanical complexity. The Alpha's much smaller delta wing only folds 90 degrees, with zero need to stop anywhere in the middle.

That is what I said. The VF-1's swing wing mechanisms are heavier than the Alpha's folding wings.

Though I'm not sure if I would consider the Alpha unable to alter it's wing. While the Alpha can't alter the sweep, it is shown at times to have wings that "droop" to various amounts (almost "gull-wing", but that isn't entirely accurate w/fixed examples). It might be an AE, but it might be something intentional given the frequency (though here I'm not sure what if any benefit would actually be gained).

[Seto Kaiba]

I disagree, where did these fusion designs come from though. How much of the UEDF fusion technology is based in-part on the technologies carried w/n the SDF-1?

It's implied that all of the advanced technologies that went into the VF-1 were of alien origin...

And with the Alpha though, they already HAVE to deviate from the original designs to some extent since HBT was turned into PC. This would allow HBT-type system to return.

Not really... all that changed was what they were saying was in the fuel cylinders. It didn't actually affect anything else.

I agree it doesn't have to refer to fusion. The problem is no one really clarifies what the Impuse propulsion system actually is on the Alpha and Beta.

The most common sense explanation would be a variable specific impulse ion engine... the sort of thing that can be powered any number of ways. It would also allow for continuity, technologically, with the VF-1, as that had ion engines in its turbines as well for space operation. It doesn't imply the existence of secondary propulsion systems either.

Using the mecha size comparison chart at RT.com, the engines in the legs are similar width. The ones in the arm are the same basic size as the backpack unit (width and length). So it is fair to say the arm engine is larger than a back-pack engine in their respective modules.

Eh... it's common for folks to look at the Legioss design and assume the turbines are much larger than they actually are. They don't go that far back, and the actual engines inside the forearms are only a fraction the size of the housings they're in.

I'm not counting the missile. I'm looking at the carriage mechanism each missile would use. Individually they aren't much, but they can add-up.

I really hate to break it to you, but even loading the VF-1 with sixty HMM-01s doesn't get it up to the mass of an Alpha.

Cyclones themselves are not heavy, but how massive would the lift system and its associated parts for the bay contribute to the dry mass?

Considering the quality of actuators around that period, it's unlikely that the lift system would weigh more than about 40-50lb in terms of mechanical parts. Probably less if they're using electromagnetic force to lift the plate instead of hydraulic rams. 132kg is not that much to lift. You can get a small hand cart that'll lift much heavier automobile engines for only a few hundred bucks, and they're very compact these days (like literally fit-it-in-the-trunk-of-a-family-sedan small).

In any case these options are not necessarily intended to find 3tons in one spot, but show what could contribute to it in multiple places since the Alpha is a highly complex machine with various systems and parts, and not all of them are found in a VF-1.

There's also a lot of parts in the VF-1 not found on the Alpha... like variable geometry wings, the tiny "magic hands" manipulators, the coaxial laser system on the head, the necessary articulations to leave the aircraft while it's in battroid mode, the thrust-vectoring nozzles, and so on and so forth...

It might be an AE, but it might be something intentional given the frequency (though here I'm not sure what if any benefit would actually be gained).

I'm pretty sure it's just the angle we're seeing the plane at, actually...

[ShadowLogan]

It's implied that all of the advanced technologies that went into the VF-1 were of alien origin...

So by implication the Fusion technology could be related to Reflex Furnace/PC usage. Therefor they could adapt one to the other.

Not really... all that changed was what they were saying was in the fuel cylinders. It didn't actually affect anything else.

Granted its only a name change, but if they want to make it purer to the OSM in terminology they would have to make 2 versions of the Alpha power plant, one that was produced (PC) and one that was an alternate should the production version (PC) run into issues during testing.

The most common sense explanation would be a variable specific impulse ion engine..

They still need an alternate power/fuel source that doesn't use PC. I agree it doesn't have to be fusion, but given the lack of clarity in the show and the only place that even attempts to address it in any official sanctioned product is the RPG... Fusion also gives an all-in one package (there is also an NTR approach using residual heat from a PC engine to heat reaction mass).

Eh... it's common for folks to look at the Legioss design and assume the turbines are much larger than they actually are. They don't go that far back, and the actual engines inside the forearms are only a fraction the size of the housings they're in.

That the Alpha legs are shorter than a VF-1 I do not dispute, but their width is the same. The entire intake-lower leg assembly on the Alpha is roughly the same length as the lower leg section on a VF-1 (which is where the bulk, if not the entire, engine is located).

The module for the VF-1 back thrusters, though is roughly the same size as one Alpha forearm in width/length. So they may have made the Alpha engine wider at the expense of length to fit other hardware in. Nozzle geometry is also at play, the larger exit area of the Alpha's engine nozzle would be better by the math (internal pressure at that point - ambient outside pressure)*throat area is ADDED into thrust.

Still by dint of more engines, the Alpha is going to be more massive since engines in this caliber are going to have a lot of mass.

There's also a lot of parts in the VF-1 not found on the Alpha... like variable geometry wings, the tiny "magic hands" manipulators, the coaxial laser system on the head, the necessary articulations to leave the aircraft while it's in battroid mode, the thrust-vectoring nozzles, and so on and so forth...

Maybe maybe not, but all of your examples have equivalencies in the Alpha. Though the point here is not to find 3 tons in one place, but rather places that can contribute to it (like armor, engines, and other systems).

Considering the quality of actuators around that period, it's unlikely that the lift system would weigh more than about 40-50lb in terms of mechanical parts

10:1 lift/weight sounds about right, though I suspect it will be a bit heavier for robustness.

I'm pretty sure it's just the angle we're seeing the plane at, actually...

If it was an angled shot I might agree with you, but it can be seen in numerous head-on shots (and a few side only). All reference addresses are from Robotech Research's Picture Archive:
VF_6H_22
VF_6H_23 (this one is near head-on)
VF_6H_40
VF_6H_47
VF_6H_83
VF_6I_12 (this one is a side view, but you can make out a lot of the wing)
VF_6S_10
VF_6Z_11 (another side view, but you can make out a lot of the wing, granted this one is on the ground so the team might have stowed it that way for easier transport)
VF_6Z_15 (G-mode)
VF_6Z_19
Legioss_14 (A/B, Alpha-wings are not straight like the Betas)
Legioss_17 (A/B connected are straight, but the escort Alphas...)

But we also see straight in:
VF_6H_54
VF_6H_56
VF_6H_8
VF_6I_7
VF_6Z_22

[Seto Kaiba]

So by implication the Fusion technology could be related to Reflex Furnace/PC usage. Therefor they could adapt one to the other.

Based on what's been said for protoculture power systems in Robotech, that would be intensely unlikely. Among all of the potential explanations, the most likely is that improvements in material science brought about by studying the materials that made up Zor's battle fortress made a compact fusion reactor practical.

Granted its only a name change, but if they want to make it purer to the OSM in terminology they would have to make 2 versions of the Alpha power plant, one that was produced (PC) and one that was an alternate should the production version (PC) run into issues during testing.

Possible, but not likely... then again, that would only have been likely to occur on the VF-X-6 Genia prototype, and not any later test model. The Alpha was completed and in service before the Expeditionary Forces left though, so it's unlikely there would be any planned "fix" to bring them back to fusion power if the larger Genia prototype had ever had it.

They still need an alternate power/fuel source that doesn't use PC.

Need, yes... have, no.

That the Alpha legs are shorter than a VF-1 I do not dispute, but their width is the same.

Ah... it seems I was insufficiently clear, or that you may be operating under a misconception regarding where the Legioss (Alpha) keeps its engines. Let me correct that:

The dimensions of the Alpha's legs aren't the issue here... because that's not where it keeps its turbines. Its engines and power plant are located on either side of the upper torso, beneath the hatches for inserting HBT/protoculture cells. A Legioss (Alpha) doesn't actually have anything in its legs except the actuators to walk, the shock absorbers that enable it to do same safely, its missile systems, and the engine exhaust system. The width of the legs has NOTHING to do with the size of the engines, because that's not where the engines are on the Legioss/Alpha. You are, however, entirely correct to assume that that's where the VF-1 keeps its engine... the whole FF-2001 turbine is only 2.14m long and fits neatly into its leg below the knee, with the fan up in the hip just being a superconducting ram-air precompressor stage connected to the flexible intake duct that is the knee.

The module for the VF-1 back thrusters, though is roughly the same size as one Alpha forearm in width/length.

The sub-engines on the Legioss (Alpha) are much smaller than the housing containing them. The nozzle is considerably wider than the engine proper because of its secondary use as a TLEAD docking support, and the actual engine does not even run the entire length of the forearm because of the way its mounting is articulated.

Still by dint of more engines, the Alpha is going to be more massive since engines in this caliber are going to have a lot of mass.

By the actual dimensions of the engines, two main and two sub engines on an Alpha equal about the same volume as one VF-1 engine. With the second set of sub-engines, it's like 1.15 VF-1 engines worth.

If it was an angled shot I might agree with you, but it can be seen in numerous head-on shots (and a few side only). All reference addresses are from Robotech Research's Picture Archive:

Yes, I know, but the official material for both the OSM and RT does not acknowledge it... it's just artistic license being taken with the angle the plane is shown at, an eccentricity of the days of hand-drawn animation.

[ShadowLogan]

Based on what's been said for protoculture power systems in Robotech, that would be intensely unlikely. Among all of the potential explanations, the most likely is that improvements in material science brought about by studying the materials that made up Zor's battle fortress made a compact fusion reactor practical.

No it is very likely. FTS comic establishes that fusion is part of a reflex system based on Goolge translation of the german in Chapter 4 (using Google Translate):

verstanden

kompressor stirbt ab...

schliesse die luftzufuhr

starte den reflexmikroreactor

fusion ist erfolgreich

die mikroreflexreaktion tatsachlich funktioniert

wir konnen das problem des absterbens in der battloidfunktion umgehen!

Translates to (might be a rough translation given context):
understood

compressor dies ...

close my air supply

Create the reflexmikroreactor

fusion is successful

the micro reflex reaction actually works

we can avoid the problem of dying in the battloidfunktion!

Possible, but not likely... then again, that would only have been likely to occur on the VF-X-6 Genia prototype, and not any later test model. The Alpha was completed and in service before the Expeditionary Forces left though, so it's unlikely there would be any planned "fix" to bring them back to fusion power if the larger Genia prototype had ever had it.

The Genia though would form the basis for any conversion, unless the production version has changed that much due to testing. The UEEF has been successful in dusting off and updating the old VF-X-7 design after all, so they could retro-fit Alphas to a non-PC Genia standard if one exists.

Need, yes... have, no.

It has an alternate power/fuel source. Its right there in the dialogue about the "manual impulse" after the PC feeds have been turned off.

he sub-engines on the Legioss (Alpha) are much smaller than the housing containing them. The nozzle is considerably wider than the engine proper because of its secondary use as a TLEAD docking support, and the actual engine does not even run the entire length of the forearm because of the way its mounting is articulated.

I've seen cutaways of the Alpha and VF-1, so I do have an idea about their size and placement in both areas. The Alpha still has to duct the exhaust (which IMHO increases the size of the engine). And the forward module with the intake is about the lenght of a person in the infopedia chart (which assigns a value of 2meters to the person). The size of the leg is also related to the size of the intake section, so it has some value.

The increased size of the nozzle on the sub-engine though does effect performance by the math since it increases the size of the exit area.

By the actual dimensions of the engines, two main and two sub engines on an Alpha equal about the same volume as one VF-1 engine. With the second set of sub-engines, it's like 1.15 VF-1 engines worth.

This may or may not be surprising, but the mass/weight of an item is independent of it's dimensions. The 3 P&W F100-class engine models used on various F-15 models, all have the same dimensions (dia x length), but the newer engine versions are heavier (2008 Aviation Week Sourcebook pg142). There is even a variant of the F100 that is slightly shorter in length, but heavier still.

Further evidence is that the F-14 is smaller than the F-15 (dimensions, F-14 assume minimal sweep), but is actually heavier by ~14,000lb on the A/B, ~10,000lb on the C/D, and ~4,000lb on the E compared to the F-14A/B/D. The new GE engines for the F-14B/D are actually smaller (diameter AND length) and heavier than the P&W engines in the A.

So lets drop the notion that the smaller item has to be lighter than the larger item, because there is precedent that it does not hold up even in military aircraft.

Yes, I know, but the official material for both the OSM and RT does not acknowledge it... it's just artistic license being taken with the angle the plane is shown at, an eccentricity of the days of hand-drawn animation.

I realize that it isn't officially recognized currently, but that does not mean it can't change if brought to their attention. I get the impression that TPTB where unaware the Sylphid was depicted with 3 different wing configurations for example (even the uRRG seems to have missed). Either the Sylphid is a form of variable wing, or there are different models depicted.

[Seto Kaiba]

No it is very likely. FTS comic establishes that fusion is part of a reflex system based on Goolge translation of the german in Chapter 4 (using Google Translate): [...]

Yet reflex is described officially as requiring protoculture, and protoculture has since ended up excised from all pre-Alpha fighter designs... so what we have here is a canon conflict brought about by piecemeal revisions of material.

I've seen cutaways of the Alpha and VF-1, so I do have an idea about their size and placement in both areas. The Alpha still has to duct the exhaust (which IMHO increases the size of the engine).

The VF-1 ducts the intake air... but, unlike on the VF-1, the Alpha's ducting doesn't contain a part of the engine function (the precompressor) since it occurs AFTER the exhaust stage. It's just ducting, nothing else, so it doesn't actually enlarge the engine any. Note well that in the battloid mode (Armo-Soldier), the engines are contained entirely in the torso block, and that a diagram of the engine/generator shown in the series indicates it's entirely located in the torso block of the fighter.

So lets drop the notion that the smaller item has to be lighter than the larger item, because there is precedent that it does not hold up even in military aircraft.

What we're pointing out here, in case you forgot or missed it, is that shielding for the reactors (rather, the absence thereof) is not a weight reduction factor in the Alpha's design. There's no evidence that heavy shielding is needed, period.

I realize that it isn't officially recognized currently, but that does not mean it can't change if brought to their attention.

Let's kindly stick to what IS, not what we wish things were.

[ShadowLogan]

Yet reflex is described officially as requiring protoculture, and protoculture has since ended up excised from all pre-Alpha fighter designs... so what we have here is a canon conflict brought about by piecemeal revisions of material.

That Reflex requires PC I do not dispute, but what seems to be occurring inside them is some form of nuclear fusion that is enhanced by PC resulting in a higher yield than conventional nuclear fusion. I can see two basic approaches (plus a mix of two):
-If you have to put X amount of energy into a fusion process and you get Y amount out, the net is Z. If adding PC to the situation alters X and/or Y, Z will be effected resulting in higher output (given its more energy dense, I don't see Z decreasing).
-Reflex Furnace fusion is higher element fusion (above hydrogen and maybe helium, but less than Iron), which would result in more energy required and output compared to Hydrogen (or even Hydrogen and helium).

What we're pointing out here, in case you forgot or missed it, is that shielding for the reactors (rather, the absence thereof) is not a weight reduction factor in the Alpha's design. There's no evidence that heavy shielding is needed, period.

Actually the extra 3 tons on the smaller design is the issue. I do not think there is any one answer, but rather several that add up to the result.

However, shielding is an issue early in the FTS comic. I will add that given that both the Alpha and VF-1 are space fighters, they are going to need radiation shielding and hardening from cosmic sources. The VF-1 may have been intended to operate closer to Earth's environment so its radiation shielding may be lighter than the deep space Alpha (in RT) so may need more shielding in comparison. The reactors in both designs are also placed differently, so the VF-1 may have needed less shielding as it was farther away from the pilot than the Alpha's placement.

The VF-1 ducts the intake air... but, unlike on the VF-1, the Alpha's ducting doesn't contain a part of the engine function (the precompressor) since it occurs AFTER the exhaust stage. It's just ducting, nothing else, so it doesn't actually enlarge the engine any. Note well that in the battloid mode (Armo-Soldier), the engines are contained entirely in the torso block, and that a diagram of the engine/generator shown in the series indicates it's entirely located in the torso block of the fighter.

If the duct is used to accelerate the exhaust increasing its velocity and thus thrust, so it could be a key part of the engine in a way that is not present on the VF-1 and not apparent from the cutaway. Conceptually I'm thinking something similar to some electric rocket engine types (ex, MHD-Plasma) that accelerate the exhaust product by use of electro-magnetic forces (either 1, or both).

[Seto Kaiba]

That Reflex requires PC I do not dispute, but what seems to be occurring inside them is some form of nuclear fusion that is enhanced by PC resulting in a higher yield than conventional nuclear fusion.

Or I suppose it could also be possible that the developmental engine was instrumented to use a reflex power system as a "starter" to give the engine enough power to start the fusion reaction that would actually provide power... and production VF-1s use an alternative system to start a fusion turbine that doesn't require protoculture.

However, shielding is an issue early in the FTS comic. I will add that given that both the Alpha and VF-1 are space fighters, they are going to need radiation shielding and hardening from cosmic sources. The VF-1 may have been intended to operate closer to Earth's environment so its radiation shielding may be lighter than the deep space Alpha (in RT) so may need more shielding in comparison.

The VF-1 was built and tested to be a true multirole, multi-regime transformable fighter though... space operation was part of its profile, and considering the construction of extrasolar ships was proceeding apace, it seems unlikely that it was not prepared adequately for deep space ops.

(It would certainly be inconsistent with the OSM for it not to be... the VF-1s were used on the early colony fleets alongside the VF-4, VF-5, and VF-5000.)

The reactors in both designs are also placed differently, so the VF-1 may have needed less shielding as it was farther away from the pilot than the Alpha's placement.

Thus far, the only fighter that's been indicted with an emissions problem is the Alpha... and only then because the distinctive signature of its protoculture power system was like sending flares up to let the Invid know they were coming.

If the duct is used to accelerate the exhaust increasing its velocity and thus thrust, so it could be a key part of the engine in a way that is not present on the VF-1 and not apparent from the cutaway.

Er... I hate to break it to you (well, not really), but what you just cited there IS present on the VF-1 explicitly. It's NOT present on any spec for the Legioss that I'm aware of. In fact, you've even correctly identified the type of ion engine used in the final exhaust stage of the VF-1's engines... MHD.

(Before you ask, YES this is not new information... it dates to the Sky Angels book, if not even further back.)

[ShadowLogan]

Or I suppose it could also be possible that the developmental engine was instrumented to use a reflex power system as a "starter" to give the engine enough power to start the fusion reaction that would actually provide power... and production VF-1s use an alternative system to start a fusion turbine that doesn't require protoculture.

That the Reflex could be used to start a fusion engine is possible. It does not explain where the VF-1 would get an alternate system (unless the RF is only microbursting in use), or how the fusion technology may or may not be related to Reflex Systems (in terms of actual technology that goes into them, not in operation together).

At least with using Reflex Furnace as a type of fusion reactor, the technology can be applied with different fuels that change the output (as I've said in the past D-D, D-T, and D-He3 fusion reactions all result in different energy output).

The VF-1 was built and tested to be a true multirole, multi-regime transformable fighter though... space operation was part of its profile, and considering the construction of extrasolar ships was proceeding apace, it seems unlikely that it was not prepared adequately for deep space ops.

Not all solar systems are going to be created equal in terms of radiation, and even within the solar system that can change by locales or Solar events. So the two could have differing radiation models in mind limiting where the two can go from a radiation perspective.

Thus far, the only fighter that's been indicted with an emissions problem is the Alpha... and only then because the distinctive signature of its protoculture power system was like sending flares up to let the Invid know they were coming.

However the emission issue here is Protoculture based with no true indication of what is actually being detected. It isn't a conventional emission, because the Masters saw through the "disguise" of using radiation at the Mounds.

Er... I hate to break it to you (well, not really), but what you just cited there IS present on the VF-1 explicitly. It's NOT present on any spec for the Legioss that I'm aware of. In fact, you've even correctly identified the type of ion engine used in the final exhaust stage of the VF-1's engines... MHD.

Yes I recall you giving a basic description before about the VF-1. What I have described is a MHD-Plasma engine, NOT an Ion engine. While both can be classified as an electric rocket engine, they are BOTH operate differently and classified differently (Ion is electrostatic in nature, MHD-Plasma is electromagnetic/magnetoplasa in nature). So either the OSM is just using something that sounds cool, or something was lost in translation.

In the case of the VF-1 though, how much ducting is separate from the engine to the exhaust port as compared to an Alpha. The Alpha has to run the length of the entire limb (articulated) and an L-duct type joint or two to get from the shoulder to the limb/location since those engines are available outside of fighter mode for use in some cases. So the duct-work may be included IF it is an active part of the system and not passive.

This might be one of those changes that has to be done for greater continuity in RT.

[Seto Kaiba]

That the Reflex could be used to start a fusion engine is possible. It does not explain where the VF-1 would get an alternate system (unless the RF is only microbursting in use), [...]

I can think of a few possibilities, within the bounds of what the OSM materials from the pre-RT era state. Most noteworthy would be high-output OTM-derived capacitor banks (also used to buffer charge for laser weapons) or OTM-derived thermonuclear batteries.

At least with using Reflex Furnace as a type of fusion reactor, the technology can be applied with different fuels that change the output (as I've said in the past D-D, D-T, and D-He3 fusion reactions all result in different energy output).

True, but there's nothing to suggest that reflex power is, explicitly or implicitly, a relative of the fusion process... indeed, the pre-reboot RT sources suggest it was thoroughly non-traditional to the point of beyond outside what we'd consider conventional science and more into the realms normally reserved for magic technology.

Not all solar systems are going to be created equal in terms of radiation, and even within the solar system that can change by locales or Solar events. So the two could have differing radiation models in mind limiting where the two can go from a radiation perspective.

True, but as the VF-1 was built with an eye towards operation in deep space or possibly even in other solar systems (it would likely have been the fighter originally assigned to the Tokugawas if things had panned out differently), it seems unlikely that the Alpha would have better or worse shielding in that respect since it was NOT designed for deep space operation, only for very short-ranged sorties.

[ShadowLogan]

I can think of a few possibilities, within the bounds of what the OSM materials from the pre-RT era state. Most noteworthy would be high-output OTM-derived capacitor banks (also used to buffer charge for laser weapons) or OTM-derived thermonuclear batteries.

I can to, the thing is, why go through the effort of designing the prototype with a RF furnace only to replace it later with a completely different system when they still have to fabricate an RF to scale.

True, but there's nothing to suggest that reflex power is, explicitly or implicitly, a relative of the fusion process... indeed, the pre-reboot RT sources suggest it was thoroughly non-traditional to the point of beyond outside what we'd consider conventional science and more into the realms normally reserved for magic technology.

Some one would have to Check Art1/3 to see if the 1E RPG definition is unique to them or not. But we have evidence that PC is used in some type of fusion energy system for a long time in the pre-2001 days:
-I know the Novels have the take that it is a form of cold-fusion (or something similar), though that was in one of the EU books and not the adaption IIRC (though IINM that was cribbed from an online site in the 90s). Yes I realize Cold-fusion's actual viability, but it is a hypothetical form of fusion.
-the 1E RPG was known to describe mecha power plants in terms of protoculture fuel with fusion engines
-the 1E RPG also has in its glossary of RT terms (pg102, main) under "Protoculture: [skipping to the relevant part at the end]...This led to the conceptualization of organic fusion, which became the basis for Robotechnology and the creation of mecha." Now the part I skipped over gives a summary of the discovery and the basic mechanics of keeping an item under pressure to release the bio-enegy. The pressure aspect, depending on the amount involved, could be applicable to a fusion system since they use pressure (created by some means) in the fusion process.

True, but as the VF-1 was built with an eye towards operation in deep space or possibly even in other solar systems (it would likely have been the fighter originally assigned to the Tokugawas if things had panned out differently), it seems unlikely that the Alpha would have better or worse shielding in that respect since it was NOT designed for deep space operation, only for very short-ranged sorties.

Deep space though is vague term. We see it used in the show to refer to the jump out to near Pluto at times.

Actually I think the Alpha would have more demanding shielding requirements than the VF-1, even if it is a "short range" fighter since the Zentraedi likely can provide more information about stellar environments the UEEF would be traveling to. The UEDF by contrast was focused more on the Solar System IMHO (they wouldn't necessarily have information about specific planets in other star systems after all).

Even the Tok itself is a later design (post 2010, Infopedia, AotSC pegs it as a UEEF designed vessel pg120), and so the VF-1 may have already been considered on the way out for replacement (it was in 2015, FTS) due to experience with the Zentraedi as we see a large push for new designs in the post 2010 years.

[Seto Kaiba]

I can to, the thing is, why go through the effort of designing the prototype with a RF furnace only to replace it later with a completely different system when they still have to fabricate an RF to scale.

There are potential explanations... but the real answer is that if you're looking for consistency or an underlying rationale in Robotech, ninety-nine times out of a hundred you've embarked on a midnight search in an unlit cellar for a black cat that isn't there.

The explanation for "why does the YF-1 prototype have a reflex microreactor when the VF-1s in the series lack any protoculture at all?" is, in the final analysis, always going to be "because the creative staff decided that protoculture needed to be removed after the comic went to print"... and a similar answer exists to explain "impulse power". It's simply a throwaway line.

Some one would have to Check Art1/3 to see if the 1E RPG definition is unique to them or not. But we have evidence that PC is used in some type of fusion energy system for a long time in the pre-2001 days:

It's not in Art 1's glossary... that identifies protoculture as a non-traditional source of bio-energy (literally life energy rather than a bio-electric source).

Actually I think the Alpha would have more demanding shielding requirements than the VF-1, even if it is a "short range" fighter since the Zentraedi likely can provide more information about stellar environments the UEEF would be traveling to.

Er... didn't they not even know where Tirol is? How would they have ended up with detailed info on the local stellar conditions?

[ShadowLogan]

The explanation for "why does the YF-1 prototype have a reflex microreactor when the VF-1s in the series lack any protoculture at all?" is, in the final analysis, always going to be "because the creative staff decided that protoculture needed to be removed after the comic went to print"... and a similar answer exists to explain "impulse power". It's simply a throwaway line.

I do not see why they have to be a throwaway line(s). Since it supports the idea that they can switch fuel/power methods w/n the show. Now there may be issues:
-Fuel Tankage, the mecha may have to be modified to carry more of the "impulse" fuel, but is doable by swap PC Cell interface location for tanks, it should be able to take advantage of the existing infrastructure (may require a few modifications). This will require additional time.
-Production of "impulse fuel". Is the infrastructure in place to support the UEEF's needs? After all the "impulse" fuel is setup as a backup system, not the primary.
-Are (or can production meet demand for) the parts available for retro-fitting. While the one year deal predates SSL's destruction, its loss could set back plans if it was the main production hub.
-Invid PC tracking system appears to be news to Scott (who apparently knows about Syncro-cannons), so the UEEF may be in the dark about them until sometime after 21st MD. Which roughly coincides with the revelation of Shadow Technology, so the UEEF may have seen Shadow Technology (and its now expanded capabilities) as more attractive than a change over (at least based on the IMUs, the mecha who went from SLMH to PC have no real performance alterations, though endurance changes).

Er... didn't they not even know where Tirol is? How would they have ended up with detailed info on the local stellar conditions?

Its hard to say it seem to change depending on what version of Sentinels one looks at. I really don't see why the Zentaedi would not have the information (I can see Tirol being off the record). If nothing else the Zentraedi would have data on the regions they are responsible for, and would give the UEEF planners a better idea of requirements for designs to meet during the search/push for Tirol. That doesn't mean they can't retrofit additional capacity in to older designs, but as mentioned before the VF-1 appears to be headed toward retirement as early as 2015 (FTS), and it might not be deemed worth the effort if the older requirements are found to be lacking.

Still even the RT.com timeline says probing was done in 2016 (IIRC) that laid the ground for the Pioneer mission. There is also evidence in TMS via recycled TRM footage that humans are already 20ly out (2013, though I will admit it is possible they are not Terran ships, but treated as closely resembling them due to parallel evolution in designs), so their idea of requirements would be changing based on these missions from when the VF-1 (and other RDF mecha) was designed and requirements set.

[Seto Kaiba]

I do not see why they have to be a throwaway line(s). Since it supports the idea that they can switch fuel/power methods w/n the show.

They're throwaway lines for good reason... the bit about the VF-1 having a reflex power system flat-out contradicts the later establishment of the official position that the only mecha that use protoculture are the returning Expeditionary Forces that appear in the New Generation. "Reflex" means, per their definition, that the power system uses protoculture fuel. A VF-1 does not use protoculture, therefore it cannot have a reflex power system.

As far as the "impulse" remark goes, that doesn't prove the existence of any kind of secondary, non-reflex power system aboard the Alpha either... and the idea that the Alpha could just be switched back to nuclear fusion fundamentally undermines much of the New Generation and Shadow Chronicles plot.

THAT is why they're throwaway lines...

-Fuel Tankage, the mecha may have to be modified to carry more of the "impulse" fuel, but is doable by swap PC Cell interface location for tanks, it should be able to take advantage of the existing infrastructure (may require a few modifications). This will require additional time.

As a point of fact, the airframe of the Legioss/Alpha has very little internal space that could be used for fuel storage. Literally the only space that's actually prepared for such is the relatively small tank in the center of each wing. With the way the engines and actuators are set up, no significant internal space exists for the addition of fuel tanks... the placement of the ride armor (Cyclone) bay is less than ideal for same, seeing as it's both exposed and shared with powered hardware from the sensor array. There's also a disincentive to sacrifice that payload bay, due mainly to that being the pilot's sole recourse for escape and sole source of survival hardware in the event that he/she is shot down.

-Production of "impulse fuel". Is the infrastructure in place to support the UEEF's needs? After all the "impulse" fuel is setup as a backup system, not the primary. [...]

The Alpha, by definition, already requires two fuel systems... its protoculture fuel cells and the propellant supply for its space operation. The "impulse" system is likely just a venting of those reserves of space-use fuel... which wouldn't last long.

-Are (or can production meet demand for) the parts available for retro-fitting.

Clearly not... or they would've done it the second they learned that protoculture fuel was giving their presence away to the Invid. Or the second they learned the SDF-3 had gone missing.

[ShadowLogan]

contradicts the later establishment of the official position

But if the official position on a given topic changes, it shows it is morphable. And in some cases might be a lack of knoweldge of a given item. The is quite clear on the existence of Impulse systemS as an alterante means of propulsion (Impulse aspect is mentioned twice as an alternate to PC fuel, by different parties).

And as I said, fusion technology can simply be adapted Reflex Furances that fuse heavier elements (which would yeild more energy than lighter elements). The UEDF simply went with lighter element fusion reactors because of supply (hydrogen more available than PC). Said reactors might need some adjustments due to the difference in fuel, but the underlying technology would be the same. If it was a throwaway line, it should not be this easy to explain or at least have some thing to contradict it w/n the show not by after the fact material.

Clearly not... or they would've done it the second they learned that protoculture fuel was giving their presence away to the Invid. Or the second they learned the SDF-3 had gone missing.

Not necessarily. Look at Radar technology, it hasn't stopped nations from building military aircraft that are visible to radar (that an effort is made to minimize it is noted, but they are still vulnerable to detection by radar technically, even the best stealth aircraft). Anti-ballistic missile technology also exists (in various forms), but hasn't ended the use of ballistic missiles. So the discovery isn't going to lead to an automatic shift away from its use.

As I said, the news of Invid detecting PC was news to Scott, so the period in which it appears to be knowledge for the UEEF proper also seems to coincide with the development of Shadow Technology w/n the show. Maybe even PttSC/TSC.

The Alpha, by definition, already requires two fuel systems... its protoculture fuel cells and the propellant supply for its space operation. The "impulse" system is likely just a venting of those reserves of space-use fuel... which wouldn't last long.

Depends on how efficient the system can be on just the use of the Impulse system.

As a point of fact, the airframe of the Legioss/Alpha has very little internal space that could be used for fuel storage.

yes and no. The Alpha doesn't have any real free space for internal storage, but it could:
-use conformal external tanks derived from the fast packs on the Super Shadow Alpha Fighter (modern fighters do use them) shows it can be done to the basic frame
-they could also enlarge the wing, and still have it accommodated for transformation if done properly. The could add a new folding wing joint, in addition to the existing wing setup.
-trade existing internal features.

Each of the 190mm missiles is how long? (I'm going to use the uRRG for convenience, if you have a different number adjust accordingly...) uRRG lists 540cm. Switching to meters, that's 0.19m dia x 0.54m long. Basic Volume (yes I know the missile is oddly shaped) works out to be 0.015m^3, as 1cubic meter equals 1,000liters that is 15liters per missile. Less if we force the tank to the shape of actual missile, which may not be necessary. We may also get more volume if the 4+ per launch station are removed to make way. Given that they all run along the duct work from the intakes to the engines, routing fuel to them should be doable. While sacrificing all 60 SRM station will net about 900liters, one could go for the seldom used (or mode limited) stations in a balancing act. Usage of the rarely used 78mm head missiles will obviously yield less, but they are also seldom used but plumbing access is an issue here.

Cyclone Bay. The Alpha may have been retrofitted for this given the age of the respective mecha. It may not be ideally placed, and it may only be available in certain modes, but it does present the option to the UEEF. While losing the survival mecha may be seen as a negative, it could be adapted. Basically the UEEF will have to ask themselves which configuration of the Cyclone bay has the better cost-benefit ratio. Such a move could also see the Cyclone replaced as a survival mecha by something that is more efficient in the role (use by Infantry forces proper is another matter).

If the PC canisters are replaced with conventional tanks, the Alpha isn't getting 16PC canisters worth of volume. It is actually getting a bit more (21% minimum give the difference between Cylinder and cube of same dimensions), since the canisters are in a bundle/frame ("Curtain Call"). That means trading the canisters could be done yielding more volume since there are gaps between the canisters and the canisters to the wall can be used for additional volume. It may not be much, but every bit helps.

Shadow Drone type intakes. If the regular Alphas are retro-fitted with similar should intakes that replace the missiles with fuel storage you are getting 24 190mm missiles to convert to fuel storage (by the uRRG numbers that would be 24missiles * 15liters each = 360liters). Which can be added into the trade off of other missile bays (and I don't see a reason for these retrofitted to lose the existing MM-60 stations automatically).

VTOL Engine bays. The Shadow Fighters show that the Alpha frame can have it removed (not entirely sure why it was removed, it may be for the Shadow System, then again it could also be to address fuel shortage). That would yield up additional space for fuel tanks. How much I can't say off hand, but if they are similar in size to the Cyclone bay (one is similar in placement). Given that these are former engine locations, plus they come with ready access to the plumbing (just reverse direction).

[Seto Kaiba]

But if the official position on a given topic changes, it shows it is morphable. And in some cases might be a lack of knoweldge of a given item.

As a point of fact, just because the situation might possibly change one day is no guarantee that it will... and does not constitute even a flimsy justification for ignoring the current official stance.

The is quite clear on the existence of Impulse systemS as an alterante means of propulsion (Impulse aspect is mentioned twice as an alternate to PC fuel, by different parties).

Again, as a point of fact, the existence of an alternate form of propulsion does not require that a secondary power system exist... and in light of the current facts, it also doesn't even imply that there was or is some completely separate system from the one we know about.

And as I said, fusion technology can simply be adapted Reflex Furances that fuse heavier elements (which would yeild more energy than lighter elements).

Which would be thoroughly inconsistent with the treatment of reflex power systems as a power source separate from, and considerably more exotic than, nuclear fusion... and would effectively invalidate an essential plot point that underpins the entire Shadow Chronicles story and, indeed, protoculture's role as the essential factor in practically every way.

An answer that makes no sense is no answer at all, and an answer that simultaneously makes no sense and contradicts virtually every established piece of evidence is usually classified as "absurd".

Not necessarily. Look at Radar technology, it hasn't stopped nations from building military aircraft that are visible to radar (that an effort is made to minimize it is noted, but they are still vulnerable to detection by radar technically, even the best stealth aircraft). [...]

This is a false parallel of the worst order... non-stealth aircraft don't broadcast their precise location to the enemy by their very operation, they have to be detected. There's a big difference between a fighter that might be detected and one that practically phones up your enemy and lets them know you're coming the instant you turn it on.

-use conformal external tanks derived from the fast packs on the Super Shadow Alpha Fighter (modern fighters do use them) shows it can be done to the basic frame

The conformal tanks aren't very large, and like the CTF-04 conformal tanks for the VF-1 Valkyrie, they are as much vernier as they are fuel tank. The smaller size has unfortunate implications, however...

-they could also enlarge the wing, and still have it accommodated for transformation if done properly. The could add a new folding wing joint, in addition to the existing wing setup.

Which wouldn't have much net gain, because there's a limit to how much they can usefully enlarge the wing until it starts to interfere with transformation or regular flight.

-trade existing internal features.

Internal features aren't exactly in great profusion... and I doubt they'd want to sacrifice the two most easily-accessible internal features, weapons and the pilot's survival kit.

[ShadowLogan]

Again, as a point of fact, the existence of an alternate form of propulsion does not require that a secondary power system exist... and in light of the current facts, it also doesn't even imply that there was or is some completely separate system from the one we know about.

I do not advocate that the systems are separate (at least for the Alpha and Beta), but merely an alternate mode/fuel the power plant/engine can operate under (a flex-fuel, or bi-fuel system if you will, or something like the NERVA rocket engine that can selectively use LOX to augment the LH2, etc).

Even if the engines are multi-fuel capable, the UEEF still has to be able to acquire the fuel(s) in sufficient quantity. Just because hydrogen is commonly available, doesn't mean that the UEEF has the industrial capacity in place to meet their needs right away.

Which would be thoroughly inconsistent with the treatment of reflex power systems as a power source separate from, and considerably more exotic than, nuclear fusion... and would effectively invalidate an essential plot point that underpins the entire Shadow Chronicles story and, indeed, protoculture's role as the essential factor in practically every way

I don't see how. Its not like they go into depth in the show on how Reflex Furnace/Fusion Reactor work and how they differ. The two could be very interrelated, even though they use different fuels. There really is no way to be sure.

This is a false parallel of the worst order... non-stealth aircraft don't broadcast their precise location to the enemy by their very operation, they have to be detected. There's a big difference between a fighter that might be detected and one that practically phones up your enemy and lets them know you're coming the instant you turn it on.

That it isn't the best parallel I don't dispute, but there are others:
-radio/radar detection (we do have missiles that can home in on Radar transmitters)
-IR

The conformal tanks aren't very large, and like the CTF-04 conformal tanks for the VF-1 Valkyrie, they are as much vernier as they are fuel tank. The smaller size has unfortunate implications, however...

Doesn't mean they can't make dedicated fuel tanks. Every little bit helps here. Updating the Alpha is at best a stop gap solution until the next generation of VFs is ready.

Though personally I think the Beta is a better candidate for updating under these circumstances but it isn't nearly as prevalent in the UEEF inventory. The bomb-bay's placement is idea for conversion to a fuel tank (centrally located, with easy access to all 3 main engines). You get five cannons (though I'd drop the two in the intakes to improve airflow, though I can also see having them replace the forearm guns), and nearly as many SRMs as an Alpha (56vs60), plus access to external hardpoints, and the Beta would be a much better space fighter (even in the atmosphere I don't think it's a slouch). Throw in a bit of aerodynamic improvements...

Which wouldn't have much net gain, because there's a limit to how much they can usefully enlarge the wing until it starts to interfere with transformation or regular flight.

Every little bit helps though. How much they can enlarge the wing w/o effecting transformation may depend more on the method used to adapt it for transformation though.

Internal features aren't exactly in great profusion... and I doubt they'd want to sacrifice the two most easily-accessible internal features, weapons and the pilot's survival kit.

While I agree they aren't likely to want to sacrifice weapons carriage on large scale/significant portion, they could focus on smaller scale use. Or adapt the intakes to be more like the Shadow Drones and trade the pop-up launcher for fuel tank would yield no loss in offensive capacity in the baseline. That the Shadow Drone has different intake design, shows they can be modified to yield up sufficient volume.

The most likely additional candidates for trade off though are those VTOL thrusters, that the Shadow Fighter dropped. The one in the chest (between the Intakes) appears to be roughly the size of an Alpha Head (no less than 1/2, the Groin appears to be 1/2 the chest), so the VTOL thrusters are going to yeild up a lot of volume to use for tanks. And the VTOL capacity in Fighter mode is really unnecessary given it is a Veritech with access to a Gaurdian mode. That its a nice feature to have, I don't dispute, but it is not necessary for continued operation of the Alpha as the recently deployed Shadow Model shows.

Preserving the Pilot's survival kit, really doesn't do much if the mecha can't be used (either of them). Currently we are just focused on the Alpha, but if the Cyclone can't be converted to alternate fuel to be useful, it could be dropped from the kit as it would be taking up space that could be better used (though I am of the opinion that it can be better used even with PC available). Even if it can be converted, the Cyclone may still be dropped if its continued use would be shown to be a bigger negative than its inclusion. If anything, the UEEF could look to create a TRUE survival mecha to fit into (or replace) the ejection seat.

They really shouldn't have any objections to converting the PC cell bay into a fuel tank though, if they are looking to get rid of PC.

[Seto Kaiba]

I do not advocate that the systems are separate (at least for the Alpha and Beta), but merely an alternate mode/fuel the power plant/engine can operate under (a flex-fuel, or bi-fuel system if you will, or something like the NERVA rocket engine that can selectively use LOX to augment the LH2, etc).

Now, if that were the case, it would fundamentally contradict one of the most fundamental plot points of both the New Generation and "Shadow" sagas... namely, that the Earth Forces hardware all runs on protoculture and not having it means they're thoroughly screwed. Your argument doesn't hold up and, quite honestly, requires that we ignore a central plot point in Shadow Chronicles as well as a few entire episodes of the New Generation.

In short, it holds water slightly less effectively than your average colander... and has about as many holes.

Even if the engines are multi-fuel capable, the UEEF still has to be able to acquire the fuel(s) in sufficient quantity. Just because hydrogen is commonly available, doesn't mean that the UEEF has the industrial capacity in place to meet their needs right away.

So... your assertion here doesn't stop at the UEEF's mecha having a multifuel capability that everyone from the lowliest mechanic to the top brass have completely forgotten about. You're also claiming the UEEF didn't bother to develop any supply chain to support that capability in the field. I know that the UEEF has a marked tendency to be caught holding the idiot ball... but that's so far beyond the absurd that I've honestly got no word for it. That requires SO MUCH paint-drinking idiocy on the part of just about everyone in the latter half of the series that even a parody would consider that going too far...

That it isn't the best parallel I don't dispute, but there are others:
-radio/radar detection (we do have missiles that can home in on Radar transmitters)

Shockingly enough, this is also a false parallel because you can always turn the radar off or adjust its frequency to avoid or mitigate the detection risks... the radar doesn't phone the enemy up as soon as you start the plane up and give him your coordinates via GPS.

Doesn't mean they can't make dedicated fuel tanks. Every little bit helps here. Updating the Alpha is at best a stop gap solution until the next generation of VFs is ready.

True, it doesn't mean they can't make dedicated fuel tanks... it just means the odds are good that any dedicated fuel tank they designed would not have sufficient capacity to extend the Alpha's operational endurance to any useful extent because the size constraints are so severe.

Then again, the UEEF isn't known to be developing any "next generation" of VFs either... which makes good sense, since their core research and development facility was compressed to a singularity by its own WMD stockpile. Tommy's concepts for the VF-13 Gamma Fighter are unused as of yet, and they were focusing on trying to fix what is eminently unfixable about the Alpha prior to that.

Every little bit helps though. How much they can enlarge the wing w/o effecting transformation may depend more on the method used to adapt it for transformation though.

Considering the specific design of the fighter in question, I'd be more worried about the effect it'd have upon the emergency escape system... enlarging the wing could potentially prevent the ejection seat in the mecha from working in battloid.

[ShadowLogan]

Now, if that were the case, it would fundamentally contradict one of the most fundamental plot points of both the New Generation and "Shadow" sagas... namely, that the Earth Forces hardware all runs on protoculture and not having it means they're thoroughly screwed. Your argument doesn't hold up and, quite honestly, requires that we ignore a central plot point in Shadow Chronicles as well as a few entire episodes of the New Generation.

I disagree.

1st we can't be sure that PC reactions are occurring solo (case in point the Reflex Furnace Diagram in "Bye Bye Mars") and assorted questions on the details that can arise from this line. If you need two or more substances to cause a reaction, you aren't likely to mention the others if they are not in short supply.

2nd the show itself is blunt about the use of a manual impulse system that can be used in place of PC. TPTB may or may not be choosing to ignore the lines, but I am not. Does anyone w/n the 85ep actually use the term nuclear fusion (or even just fusion) connected w/power generation in the previous arcs? Or is its use by pure implication with vague terms that a connection is being made ("Plasma", "Reactor", etc that I do recall).

3rd. As I said before, the UEEF still needs to have the industrial capacity to meet the demand for the alternate fuel(s). If it isn't present they will have to expand, which could still take time, and in the mean time face shortages. And it isn't like there are not real world parallels that can be drawn from the lack of internal capacity to meet all the needs a given region may have for resources.

I know that the UEEF has a marked tendency to be caught holding the idiot ball... but that's so far beyond the absurd that I've honestly got no word for it.

You mean like switching over completely to a single fuel source that they can't produce isn't even more so. And one they knew was in short supply even before they made the switch (from the Zentraedi).

I'm not saying the UEEF forgot about the capacity, I'm saying the capacity can't be used to meet their needs because the infrastructure to do so is not in place for whatever reason. (flush with PC, infusion of Shadow Technology, etc pushing the need to the side).

Shockingly enough, this is also a false parallel because you can always turn the radar off or adjust its frequency to avoid or mitigate the detection risks... the radar doesn't phone the enemy up as soon as you start the plane up and give him your coordinates via GPS.

It is closer to the PC detection system though. Also it is possible for some missiles of this type to home in even after the emitter has shut down (w/assistance from other sensors, and we know the Invid aren't completely blind to the Shadow equipped mecha due to their other sensors). Counter measures may be developed, but then you get counter-counter measures and so on.

I do not see PC being activated as going "HERE I AM" and every Invid w/n 1A.U. knows about it because of their detection gear. The "HERE I AM" still requires the detector to be in range given how often the NG crew is able to move about w/o attracting Invid attention (on screen), and they will only be able to move as fast as their slowest vehicle (which still means Invid flying mecha can catch up).

it just means the odds are good that any dedicated fuel tank they designed would not have sufficient capacity to extend the Alpha's operational endurance to any useful extent because the size constraints are so severe.

The useful endurance figure though is going to be based on how efficient the engines actually work out to be, and what endurance the UEEF is seeking to get out of the Alpha w/this fuel. Realistically they are probably going to look for something in the range of ASC/RDF fusion Veritechs, and not PC as their baseline.

And at least by the 2E RPGs take, the second generation (ASC) fusion systems are 3.5x more efficient than the first generation (RDF) system, all while being in smaller packages. So I would put the UEEF attempt in between these for a retro-fit job, with a fresh design at minimum close to ASC level.

Then again, the UEEF isn't known to be developing any "next generation" of VFs either...

Agree that the UEEF isn't known to be developing the next generation platform(s), but if they weren't at the time of Ep85/TSC they likely are now post TSC.

Considering the specific design of the fighter in question, I'd be more worried about the effect it'd have upon the emergency escape system... enlarging the wing could potentially prevent the ejection seat in the mecha from working in battloid.

Not necessarily. Enlarged wings may or may not even be an issue, and it isn't like the wings could not be adapted to have the same coverage (area not volume) in Battloid (or Gaurdian) as the baseline version which minimizes their impact.

Plus, if the elongation occurs w/the same sweep from the tip, and if the new section folds up on to the wing, the new section will actually sweep outward, not inward.

[Seto Kaiba]

I disagree.

That's your right and privilege, but your objection doesn't fit the evidence...

1st we can't be sure that PC reactions are occurring solo (case in point the Reflex Furnace Diagram in "Bye Bye Mars") and assorted questions on the details that can arise from this line. If you need two or more substances to cause a reaction, you aren't likely to mention the others if they are not in short supply.

You can't even be sure that all of those lines are fuel... or if more than one of them is. You're making many unfounded assumptions here. There is no evidence to support the contention that protoculture power generation requires some other process. If it did, we wouldn't be seeing protoculture cells as a stand-alone power source. If your stockpiles of protoculture are fundamentally useless without some other substance, that substance is likely to come up in conversation when you're talking about a huge fuel crisis.

2nd the show itself is blunt about the use of a manual impulse system that can be used in place of PC. TPTB may or may not be choosing to ignore the lines, but I am not.

Your interpretation of the meaning of "manual impulse" is suspect at best... and in contradiction with the official material and plot points of the series at worst. Also, to be blunt, the opinion held by TPTB is the one that actually counts.

Does anyone w/n the 85ep actually use the term nuclear fusion (or even just fusion) connected w/power generation in the previous arcs? Or is its use by pure implication with vague terms that a connection is being made ("Plasma", "Reactor", etc that I do recall).

No, I do not believe anyone actually uses the word "fusion" in the series... but Roy describes the VF-1 engines as being "based on a reactor design". Even though the term could fit, at no point in the show does a protoculture power system get referred to as a bioreactor... so the natural conclusion is that a "reactor design" refers to a nuclear reactor.

3rd. As I said before, the UEEF still needs to have the industrial capacity to meet the demand for the alternate fuel(s).

If they used alternate fuels, they would need the industrial capacity to produce them... but they don't, based on the actual evidence of the series and the Shadow Chronicles movie, so it's not exactly a surprise that they don't have that industrial capacity. There is zero evidence to support your claim the Alpha and other UEEF mecha are multifuel capable, and a sizable body of evidence to indicate that they are not. You're arguing against the evidence here.

You mean like switching over completely to a single fuel source that they can't produce isn't even more so. And one they knew was in short supply even before they made the switch (from the Zentraedi).

Switching over to a single fuel source they could produce apparently limitless quantities of is one thing, even if there was only one means of producing it and it's obviously less viable than continuing to use a fusion system. That's an idiot ball moment, yes. However, the suggestion that the UEEF designed the mecha it uses with a multifuel capability that is never mentioned to anyone, and never used or brought up as a viable alternative to protoculture when fuel runs short, and is completely forgotten when UEEF finally learns that the Invid can see active protoculture and the SDF-3 goes missing is more of an idiot ball juggling routine and so far beyond the absurd as to border on the comical.

I'm not saying the UEEF forgot about the capacity, I'm saying the capacity can't be used to meet their needs because the infrastructure to do so is not in place for whatever reason. (flush with PC, infusion of Shadow Technology, etc pushing the need to the side).

Which is incredibly absurd... and entirely unsupportable via the series, the Shadow Chronicles film, and any other official Robotech source.

Agree that the UEEF isn't known to be developing the next generation platform(s), but if they weren't at the time of Ep85/TSC they likely are now post TSC.

Again, there is no evidence to support your contention... the only new development that we know of was shadow technology-enhanced versions of existing designs. There is zero evidence to support an argument that a new fighter is in development, and with the UEEF's principal R&D facility gone and its forces in disarray, the development of a new fighter is profoundly unlikely to start.

[ShadowLogan]

ou can't even be sure that all of those lines are fuel... or if more than one of them is.

No objection here, I admit this point is contentious since we have no idea what is in those 3 feed lines so we can't confirm or deny it.

If it did, we wouldn't be seeing protoculture cells as a stand-alone power source.

Again, not necessarily. The PC cells could be a package deal and come with PC, and any other materials it needs for operation (like a battery).

Your interpretation of the meaning of "manual impulse" is suspect at best... and in contradiction with the official material and plot points of the series at worst.

I don't think it is suspect. We have two consistent uses of the term impulse in relation to vehicles as an alternate means to PC supported operations. Since the mecha don't have anywhere to really fit another engine based on OSM cutaways, that means the Impulse aspect has to be integrated with the PC using engines. For that to work, they have to be similar in operation.

Nor does it contradict the 85ep series. The UEEF wasn't under an energy crunch during the 85ep. That development comes out of left field in TSC, and may be unsupported by the 85ep series.

Even though the term could fit, at no point in the show does a protoculture power system get referred to as a bioreactor... so the natural conclusion is that a "reactor design" refers to a nuclear reactor.

But nuclear is not the only option (MAMA is another), and nuclear does come in more than one form. The application of it as fusion is completely arbitrary then.

Nor is the lack of a bioreactor term necessarily proof, since it could merely be a terminology thing that is really the same thing (Canon vs Gun, line vs rope, etc).

If they used alternate fuels, they would need the industrial capacity to produce them..

Which they could have. The issue though IS THE capacity sufficient to meet the new demands. If you can produce X-liters of SLMH a year, but suddenly need Y-liters of SLMH a year, and Y > X by a significant margin you do not have the capacity to meet the demand in the near term, and could theoretically run out before capacity catches up to demand.

In the case of the Alpha the SLMH demand would jump from 2hrs of rare use demand, to 336hrs heavy use demand to replace PC, that's a factor of x168 increase. At least by the 2E RPG's numbers.

There is zero evidence to support your claim the Alpha and other UEEF mecha are multifuel capable

I disagree. The use of the Alpha and Beta "manual Impulse" shows they have another fuel they can use, even the Masters have an "Impulse" system .

Switching over to a single fuel source they could produce apparently limitless quantities of is one thing

They can't though. As the Masters show, you need both the Matrix/Factory and the proper raw material from the FoL. And the FoL grows only on Earth currently, and that world was not under UEEF control for 15years (prior to that Earth was a heavy fusion user) and prior to that they did not have knowledge of a FoL supply on Earth (Invasion shows they knew about the Matrix, but not the Flowers).

However, the suggestion that the UEEF designed the mecha it uses with a multifuel capability that is never mentioned to anyone, and never used or brought up as a viable alternative to protoculture when fuel runs short, and is completely forgotten when UEEF finally learns that the Invid can see active protoculture and the SDF-3 goes missing is more of an idiot ball juggling routine and so far beyond the absurd as to border on the comical.

As I said before, the UEEF seems to have learned about the Invid sensing PC about the same time as Shadow Technology becomes available to them. That would counter any push to stop using the fuel based on the fact their enemy can detect when its in use since they now have a counter for it.

The "Impulse" capacity though shows that the mecha can operate without PC as the fuel, meaning the mecha in question are already multi-fuel capable.

And when do they actual discuss viable alternatives to PC? Their source of PC is on the SDF-3, and the SDF-3 is missing. So you find the SDF-3 and you get the PC, 2-birds-1-stone deal. The only people in true need of viable alternatives are the Masters, and their alternatives don't work given how much PC is used through out their society (unlike the UEEF/Terrans).

There is zero evidence to support an argument that a new fighter is in development, and with the UEEF's principal R&D facility gone and its forces in disarray, the development of a new fighter is profoundly unlikely to start.

True, but why wouldn't the UEEF start development of a new fighter under these conditions? Their present designs are compromised, since the Haydonites would need access to the UEEF designs in order to do the integration of Shadow Technology. Older RDF/ASC designs have been out of production for years, so it will take time to restore the production lines.

That SSL is gone is noted, but the UEEF (at least in Prelude) seems to have R&D facility at Tirol also. Their forces are in disarray, but that isn't going to last. In any case in the long run new UEEF designs are a certainty.

[Jefffar]

Of course, officially, the SLMH based power systems of UEDF/Southern Cross mecha are listed as being trackable by the Protoculture sensing and targeting systems of the Invid. Until that is repealed somewhere officially the stealth advantage of fusion doesn't exist. At that point we come to a decision about the shorter endurance of the fusion systems versus the harder to restock Protoculture.

[Seto Kaiba]

Of course, officially, the SLMH based power systems of UEDF/Southern Cross mecha are listed as being trackable by the Protoculture sensing and targeting systems of the Invid. [...]

Eh... yes and no. Yes, the RTSC core book describes the capabilities of the Invid protoculture sensors as enabling them to detect and identify mecha and devices which actively use and emit protoculture energy. It erroneously lists the pre-New Generation mecha because, at that time of writing, it had not yet been established that those mecha did not run on protoculture. The text incorrectly assumes that the "Veritech Fighters, old Destroids, mecha of the Southern Cross" etc. are using protoculture...

Bear in mind, SLMH is entirely a contrivance on the RPG and does not exist in Robotech proper... official sources only say "fusion" and do not specify what fuel source. The RPG is not considered to be canon to Robotech's universe.

Until that is repealed somewhere officially the stealth advantage of fusion doesn't exist.

Being that the actual wording of the rule limits the "trackability" profile of the Invid targeting system to only those units which are, and I quote, actively using and emitting Protoculture energy, it's been effectively repealed ever since the Macross Saga source book went to print. The source books for the Macross Saga and Masters Saga explicitly establish that the mecha of those story arcs aren't powered by, or using, protoculture... and therefore aren't actively using or emitting protoculture energy.

Put bluntly... the mecha in question are exempt, because they do not meet the basic precondition for detection under the Invid sensor and targeting system rules. They do not use protoculture, therefore they are not detectable by that sensor.

Nor does it contradict the 85ep series. The UEEF wasn't under an energy crunch during the 85ep.

Scott's band WAS... and they never mention any flexfuel capability on their mecha. If they had some alternative, they would've mentioned it on the several occasions in which they were running critically low on fuel.

That development comes out of left field in TSC, and may be unsupported by the 85ep series.

Actually, that development has existed since at least the Sentinels comics... everything old is new again, eh?

But nuclear is not the only option (MAMA is another), and nuclear does come in more than one form. The application of it as fusion is completely arbitrary then.

No, the application of fusion is 1) consistent with the dialogue and 2) rudely consistent with the OSM.

I disagree. The use of the Alpha and Beta "manual Impulse" shows they have another fuel they can use, even the Masters have an "Impulse" system .

That is a matter of your specific interpretation of ambiguous dialogue, not fact.

[Jefffar]

Of course, officially, the SLMH based power systems of UEDF/Southern Cross mecha are listed as being trackable by the Protoculture sensing and targeting systems of the Invid. [...]

Eh... yes and no. Yes, the RTSC core book describes the capabilities of the Invid protoculture sensors as enabling them to detect and identify mecha and devices which actively use and emit protoculture energy. It erroneously lists the pre-New Generation mecha because, at that time of writing, it had not yet been established that those mecha did not run on protoculture. The text incorrectly assumes that the "Veritech Fighters, old Destroids, mecha of the Southern Cross" etc. are using protoculture...

Bear in mind, SLMH is entirely a contrivance on the RPG and does not exist in Robotech proper... official sources only say "fusion" and do not specify what fuel source. The RPG is not considered to be canon to Robotech's universe.

Until that is repealed somewhere officially the stealth advantage of fusion doesn't exist.

Being that the actual wording of the rule limits the "trackability" profile of the Invid targeting system to only those units which are, and I quote, actively using and emitting Protoculture energy, it's been effectively repealed ever since the Macross Saga source book went to print. The source books for the Macross Saga and Masters Saga explicitly establish that the mecha of those story arcs aren't powered by, or using, protoculture... and therefore aren't actively using or emitting protoculture energy.

Put bluntly... the mecha in question are exempt, because they do not meet the basic precondition for detection under the Invid sensor and targeting system rules. They do not use protoculture, therefore they are not detectable by that sensor.

The text in question explicitly states that actively using and emitting protoculture energy applies to the UEDF and ASC mecha . So they are emitting prtoculture energy somehow and thus are trackable, meaning that stealth vs the Invid is not an inherent advantage of the Fusion system.

And the RPGs are a secondary cannon, correct as long as they don't contradict what is actually seen on the screen. On screen we have never heard it explicitly indicated that the UEDF and ASC equipment is not trackable by the Invid. So until we have an official statement somewhere correcting the statement in the RPG, the Invid can track UEDF and ASC mecha.

[jaymz]

Could be the so called "protoculture chips" they were manufacturing during the macross saga...maybe they emit some sort of low level protoculture energy.....

[Jefffar]

Yep, a mecha doesn't have to be protoculture powered to use protoculture energy.

[Seto Kaiba]

The text in question explicitly states that actively using and emitting protoculture energy applies to the UEDF and ASC mecha .

Except that it 1) was printed before the decision that the mecha of the first two sagas do not use any protoculture, and 2) that it is explicitly contradicted by the source books for those sagas. At no point, anywhere in the Macross Saga or Masters Saga source books, is it ever stated or implied the mecha in those books are using protoculture in any way, shape, or form. Unless the source books are amended such that their use of protoculture energy is explicitly mentioned, the rule does not apply to them, as they do not meet the precondition for the rule's application... the description indicates that it applies only to active, protoculture-based power generation technology (engines, furnaces, cells).

So they are emitting prtoculture energy somehow and thus are trackable, meaning that stealth vs the Invid is not an inherent advantage of the Fusion system.

Sorry, but you're arguing against the actual, literal text in the books. The text of the relevant rule for the Invid's tracking system indicates that it only applies to protoculture-powered vehicles, technology, etc. The text of the stats for the indicated pre-New Gen. vehicles clearly indicates that they are not protoculture-powered... but rather run on nuclear fusion or a variety of other, conventional means.

If they're not protoculture-powered, the Invid's protoculture sensing systems aren't detecting them because there's no emissions to detect. Q.E.D.

And the RPGs are a secondary cannon, correct as long as they don't contradict what is actually seen on the screen.

Harmony Gold's official policy, as recently confirmed by other posters who contacted them directly, is that no licensee-developed material is canon. That rules out the RPG... but then, Harmony Gold went and disowned pretty much all of its licensee-created material years ago, so this shouldn't be a shock.

On screen we have never heard it explicitly indicated that the UEDF and ASC equipment is not trackable by the Invid. So until we have an official statement somewhere correcting the statement in the RPG, the Invid can track UEDF and ASC mecha.

The RPG's text is operating on the assumption (stated directly therein) that the mecha in question use protoculture... later publications in the series clearly indicate that they do not. The error has already been corrected, via the correct stats for the relevant vehicles.

Could be the so called "protoculture chips" they were manufacturing during the macross saga...maybe they emit some sort of low level protoculture energy.....

Except there's no indication of what those chips are used for... and the text of the RPG indicates that "protoculture energy" refers to the power produced by protoculture power systems (engines, furnaces, and other power supplies, according to the manga ed. core book). Systems which are, according to both the official stats and the RPG, conspicuously absent from the Macross and Masters Saga mecha.

Yep, a mecha doesn't have to be protoculture powered to use protoculture energy.

Amusingly enough, according to the core book's description of Invid sensor systems... it actually kinda does. The description of the system indicates that what they detect is the active generation or consumption of protoculture energy by power sources... engines, furnaces, and other power supplies. The description repeatedly identifies this as applying to protoculture-powered technology, which none of the pre-New Generation mecha are.

[eliakon]

And the RPGs are a secondary cannon, correct as long as they don't contradict what is actually seen on the screen.

Harmony Gold's official policy, as recently confirmed by other posters who contacted them directly, is that no licensee-developed material is canon. That rules out the RPG... but then, Harmony Gold went and disowned pretty much all of its licensee-created material years ago, so this shouldn't be a shock.

Minor point but...wouldn't the game be considered canon...for the game? (like this thread...which already presupposes that we are using game material plus all the other canon sources)

[ShadowLogan]

Minor point but...wouldn't the game be considered canon...for the game? (like this thread...which already presupposes that we are using game material plus all the other canon sources)

I think a better way to put it is that the 2E RPG has its own canon that is separate from the series.

Scott's band WAS... and they never mention any flexfuel capability on their mecha. If they had some alternative, they would've mentioned it on the several occasions in which they were running critically low on fuel.

Scott's band was in the state, but they would still have to find the necessary fuel, which could be just as hard (or harder) to come by as PC under those conditions. It isn't like Scott's band has an industrial complex to support them directly (which the UEEF would have) on the trip to Reflex Point, they have to scavenge (PT K, Naval Base), barter (Maxwell essentially, a few others), and steal (Norristown, NYC) their supplies and equipment.

Actually, that development has existed since at least the Sentinels comics... everything old is new again, eh?

I really haven't read the comics, I know it was part of the Novel take. But Sentinels IS NOT part of the 85ep. series proper. This whole the UEEF is running out of PC is not supported by the core RT story.

That is a matter of your specific interpretation of ambiguous dialogue, not fact.

The dialogue is quite clear in both instances that the impulse systems are being used in place of PC.

Ep31: Master (located some 20ly from Earth, told they don't have the PC for a Space Fold to Earth's solar system) "So then we begin the trip under impulse power and rely on the remaining cell tissue to complete our mission"

Ep74: Scott (in a Beta, w/2 Alphas, in flight) "Close off your protoculture feed and switch over to manual impulse then they'll have no way of tracking us"

No, the application of fusion is 1) consistent with the dialogue and 2) rudely consistent with the OSM

Given that the OSM had the fuel source changed for the NG period, I don't see an issue with changing it for the other two periods to PC fusion or PC assisted fusion, as both would be consistent with the dialogue of "fusion" in the new comics and the ambiguous dialogue in the show. And if PC use is a more demanding form (above hydrogen, but below iron) of fusion, then it stands to reason they could simplify it for less demanding form (hydrogen).

[Seto Kaiba]

Minor point but...wouldn't the game be considered canon...for the game? (like this thread...which already presupposes that we are using game material plus all the other canon sources)

True enough... though what we're talking about is a little outside the scope of the game's rules, and the specific backup generator on the Alpha in the RPG is kind of an inconvenient negative factor for what ShadowLogan is talking about, since it's apparently not able to provide enough power to even permit normal operation for the fighter.

Scott's band was in the state, but they would still have to find the necessary fuel, which could be just as hard (or harder) to come by as PC under those conditions.

Two problems with this line of inquiry... one from a commonsense standpoint, one from the RPG's standpoint.

Specifically, the first problem is that it makes no sense for the alternate fuel source to be as hard or harder to obtain than the basic fuel source. That defeats the entire point of having a backup generator system if it's even more difficult to provision than an engine that runs on pure unobtainium.

Also, from the RPG's standpoint, the alternate power system for the Alpha which does not exist in canon is supposed to be easier for the players to find fuel for... that's the entire point of its existence as a backup system.

It isn't like Scott's band has an industrial complex to support them directly (which the UEEF would have) on the trip to Reflex Point, they have to scavenge (PT K, Naval Base), barter (Maxwell essentially, a few others), and steal (Norristown, NYC) their supplies and equipment.

They have massive, nigh-untouched caches of fuel and supplies that have LITERALLY fallen from the sky... in addition to what they've begged, borrowed, bought, or stolen.

I really haven't read the comics, I know it was part of the Novel take. But Sentinels IS NOT part of the 85ep. series proper. This whole the UEEF is running out of PC is not supported by the core RT story.

That the whole UEEF is running out of protoculture is a part of the only canon animated continuation of the series... and therefore is fact. As far as the validity of the Sentinels stuff... I know, but I'm just saying that this ain't exactly a new plot development... there was precious little new material in RTSC.

Ep31: Master (located some 20ly from Earth, told they don't have the PC for a Space Fold to Earth's solar system) "So then we begin the trip under impulse power and rely on the remaining cell tissue to complete our mission"

Sorry to burst your bubble, my friend, but this does not indicate an alternate power system... we're told in official sources that a fold jump consumes MASSIVE amounts of protoculture, and they're concerned about conserving protoculture, so it's equally possible their "impulse power" is simply relativistic sublight or borderline lightspeed flight the way it is in Star Trek, from whence the term was almost certainly borrowed.

Ep74: Scott (in a Beta, w/2 Alphas, in flight) "Close off your protoculture feed and switch over to manual impulse then they'll have no way of tracking us"

"Manual impulse" sounds a lot like a less wordy way of saying "maneuvering thrusters"... the same sort of gimmick that shows up in so many sci-fi titles when the default power system is causing problems or giving the ship's presence away. Not really indicative of any kind of separate power system.

Given that the OSM had the fuel source changed for the NG period, I don't see an issue with changing it for the other two periods to PC fusion or PC assisted fusion, as both would be consistent with the dialogue of "fusion" in the new comics and the ambiguous dialogue in the show.

You might not see a problem with it, but the fact remains that Harmony Gold has chosen to go with conventional nuclear fusion, and the RPG has gone with conventional nuclear fusion using an exotic superdense form of hydrogen fuel. No PC need apply.

The RPG also supports the notion that protoculture is a non-traditional energy source (ala RT Art 1's depreciated explanation of it as literally being life energy)... ironically in the very same section that Jefffar was disputing earlier.

[ShadowLogan]

Two problems with this line of inquiry... one from a commonsense standpoint, one from the RPG's standpoint.

Specifically, the first problem is that it makes no sense for the alternate fuel source to be as hard or harder to obtain than the basic fuel source. That defeats the entire point of having a backup generator system if it's even more difficult to provision than an engine that runs on pure unobtainium.

Also, from the RPG's standpoint, the alternate power system for the Alpha which does not exist in canon is supposed to be easier for the players to find fuel for... that's the entire point of its existence as a backup system.

The first issue though requires some means to support production of the fuel in question. And making the fuel difficult to obtain is not out of place for NG occupied Earth conditions though if the fuel has to be processed and no one is doing the processing it makes perfect sense that fuel would be harder to obtain (if the WORLD stopped gasoline production today, how easy would it be to find gasoline 10years from now). Even in space it will come down to supply and demand, and if the demand pre-TSC is low the supply side capacity will also be low.

The 2E RPG's alternate system though is also listed as a back-up, but it is part of canon as it could be seen as reference to the Impulse system. The NG SB mentions hydrogen fueling stations (which could still be different than SLMH), but I get the impression the backup system is to give players a bit of margin to play with and escape option (as seen in the show). Fusion reactors come in a variety of forms, which will effect the type and form of the fuel, so availablity can still be an issue if the hydrogen fuel as to be processed into fuel pellets (for use in a laser induced fusion reaction, as opposed to a tok.).

They have massive, nigh-untouched caches of fuel and supplies that have LITERALLY fallen from the sky...

????

Even if such caches exist, they still have to find them, which still makes PC storehouses an easier target than some hidden cache. And the longer they sit, the more likely other groups have picked them over during the occupation.

Sorry to burst your bubble, my friend, but this does not indicate an alternate power system... we're told in official sources that a fold jump consumes MASSIVE amounts of protoculture, and they're concerned about conserving protoculture, so it's equally possible their "impulse power" is simply relativistic sublight or borderline lightspeed flight the way it is in Star Trek, from whence the term was almost certainly borrowed.

I don't think it is a FTL, but relativistic sublight, which means then the basic system would also apply to non relativistic flight like the UEEF mecha. The Bassard Ramjet (hypothetical) fusion for high relativistic flight for example, fusion is also proposed for non-relativistic flight to.

It could also be used to power another system if it is an energy source to power propulsion systems in place of PC. Which still works for the Alpha/Beta.

"Manual impulse" sounds a lot like a less wordy way of saying "maneuvering thrusters"... the same sort of gimmick that shows up in so many sci-fi titles when the default power system is causing problems or giving the ship's presence away. Not really indicative of any kind of separate power system.

Then again it could require manual control to keep the non-PC fuel flowing to the engines to be used there suggesting PC may be like using Nitrious Oxide in an engine to increase performance.

[Seto Kaiba]

The first issue though requires some means to support production of the fuel in question.

True, but per the New Generation this is only an issue for users of protoculture...

And making the fuel difficult to obtain is not out of place for NG occupied Earth conditions though if the fuel has to be processed and no one is doing the processing it makes perfect sense that fuel would be harder to obtain (if the WORLD stopped gasoline production today, how easy would it be to find gasoline 10years from now).

Here's the thing... hydrogen doesn't have a shelf-life (unless you're talking a scale of billions of years). If the UEDF had stockpiles of it and those stockpiles were not wiped out in the war, it would still be present and usable a decade or so later. Pretty much any town that had a UEDF garrison should have some, and it shouldn't be an issue to get it. The UEEF forces should have also been carrying some, or the means to produce same in the field, because their supply lines were pretty badly stretched as it was... yet they didn't.

The 2E RPG's alternate system though is also listed as a back-up, but it is part of canon as it could be seen as reference to the Impulse system.

Wrong again, I'm afraid... the "impulse" reference is unexplained and could be a number of things, and is not referenced in canon stats. Therefore, the alternate fuel system from the RPG is NOT CANON.

They have massive, nigh-untouched caches of fuel and supplies that have LITERALLY fallen from the sky...

????

What, did you forget that those landing shuttles weren't just carrying troops... they were also carrying supplies. We see as much in the series.

Even if such caches exist, they still have to find them, which still makes PC storehouses an easier target than some hidden cache.

Orbit-to-surface crash sites aren't exactly subtle...

I don't think it is a FTL, but relativistic sublight, which means then the basic system would also apply to non relativistic flight like the UEEF mecha. The Bassard Ramjet (hypothetical) fusion for high relativistic flight for example, fusion is also proposed for non-relativistic flight to.

There's another unfounded assumption... you're assuming the Masters' "impulse power" refers to the same technology as the "manual impulse" on the Alpha. There's nothing to support the idea that that is the case.

[ShadowLogan]

True, but per the New Generation this is only an issue for users of protoculture...

It would also be true of anyone on Earth using any fuel. What evidence of industrial production do we actually see on RT Earth during the occupation. None. So any fuel that has to be manufactured/refined (etc) is going to be scarcer than PC the longer the occupation goes on and production does appear to be nonexistent.

While those fuels have the raw material present, they still have to be manufactured/refined into a useable form.

Here's the thing... hydrogen doesn't have a shelf-life (unless you're talking a scale of billions of years). If the UEDF had stockpiles of it and those stockpiles were not wiped out in the war, it would still be present and usable a decade or so later. Pretty much any town that had a UEDF garrison should have some, and it shouldn't be an issue to get it. The UEEF forces should have also been carrying some, or the means to produce same in the field, because their supply lines were pretty badly stretched as it was... yet they didn't.

While Hydrogen itself does not have a shelf-life, there are storage issues that one will have to contend with. And what ever stockpiles the UEDF had on Earth after BEFORE the ~15year occupation may not survive due to regular maintenance issues (lack there of) at storage sites, damage suffered during the invasion (at those sites), and those siphoning off what was left w/o replenishment from the production facilities. In any case it is doubtful the UEDF had a 10+year stockpile ready for use.

I don't think the UEEF would necessarily have been transporting the means to produce SLMH in the field. Otherwise they might never have seen a need to switch to PC in their mecha. Hydrogen is plentiful enough in the universe, so they could conserve the PC for critical functions (like Space Fold).

Wrong again, I'm afraid... the "impulse" reference is unexplained and could be a number of things, and is not referenced in canon stats. Therefore, the alternate fuel system from the RPG is NOT CANON.

That it is unexplained is only valid to a point. The RPG may have changed the term to avoid any potential copyright/legal issues in a better safe than sorry mindset (as it would seem awfully close to Star Trek in terms and meaning, at least going generic they don't have to worry).

That the canon stats don't reference it doesn't mean it doesn't exist given the huge gaps in the canon stats in coverage. Examples: none of the Alpha entries in the Infopedia mention the Cyclone Storage bay. Nor do the Cyclones mention the capacity, or the Cyclone's (VR-051 at least) VTOL booster shown in use during the "Genesis Pit" Ep. None of the VF-1 entries mention the escape capsule system (same with the Shadow/Alpha Fighters), or the utility arm(s). So the official stats are very limited, and can even be shown to omit things that appear in the show.

What, did you forget that those landing shuttles weren't just carrying troops... they were also carrying supplies. We see as much in the series.

I haven't forgotten about them, but all indications point to them being wrecks at Point K and the one Rand found. The only non-wreck is credited with pre-dating the Invid IIRC as the weapons being sold/bartered date back to the war with the Robotech Masters.

Aside from Point K, those ships if they are out there are scattered. And as Rand demonstrates, they where targeted for salvage. The Invid also seem interested in sites like that as Rand bumped into them after just exiting the ship (given the time, I don't think its a coinciedence). Plus the Invid seem keen on exploration of battle sites (as seen in "Reflex Point"), so it is entirely possible that sites would be picked clean in many cases of useable materials (though with the Invid it may be more selective picking, as compared to humans).

There's another unfounded assumption... you're assuming the Masters' "impulse power" refers to the same technology as the "manual impulse" on the Alpha. There's nothing to support the idea that that is the case.

Humans have apparently been working with Tirolians up to this point (prelude) so it is possible terminology and technology was adopted (we know Bioroids are adopted for non-Terrans ex., and Scott is familiar with Bioroids as he could identify them among wreckage in NG#2).

[Seto Kaiba]

It would also be true of anyone on Earth using any fuel. What evidence of industrial production do we actually see on RT Earth during the occupation. None.

Yet... it seems like everyone on Earth who isn't living in a shantytown has access to a ration of protoculture provided by the Invid. Who's milling those cell cases? Moreover, who's making the black powder firearms we see most of the people armed with?

While those fuels have the raw material present, they still have to be manufactured/refined into a useable form.

Unless, y'know, the military was wiped out almost overnight, leaving stockpiles behind... or a bunch of shuttles carrying supplies just happened to fall out of the sky.

In any case it is doubtful the UEDF had a 10+year stockpile ready for use.

Yet they had "massive" stockpiles of protoculture... why would they stockpile fuel they don't use and not stockpile fuel they do?

I don't think the UEEF would necessarily have been transporting the means to produce SLMH in the field. Otherwise they might never have seen a need to switch to PC in their mecha. Hydrogen is plentiful enough in the universe, so they could conserve the PC for critical functions (like Space Fold).

And here we have an acknowledgement of why protoculture makes no sense... it's only the RPG that claims the fuel is an exotic, theoretical substance. The means to produce something more conventional, like liquid hydrogen, aren't all that massive... and would probably have shrunk even further thanks to advancements in technology.

That it is unexplained is only valid to a point. The RPG may have changed the term to avoid any potential copyright/legal issues in a better safe than sorry mindset (as it would seem awfully close to Star Trek in terms and meaning, at least going generic they don't have to worry).

That it is unexplained is the only valid point there is... until someone at Harmony Gold deigns to grant us an official explanation.

That the canon stats don't reference it doesn't mean it doesn't exist given the huge gaps in the canon stats in coverage.

For evidentiary purposes, that it isn't referenced or even mentioned means your argument has zero basis in fact... because you're not arguing a demonstrated capacity, you're tossing around supposition that may have no connection to what's actually shown (or contradicts major plot points).

I haven't forgotten about them, but all indications point to them being wrecks at Point K and the one Rand found.

Yet, if you look at the backgrounds in that wreck, you see large numbers of intact supply crates...

[ShadowLogan]

Yet... it seems like everyone on Earth who isn't living in a shantytown has access to a ration of protoculture provided by the Invid. Who's milling those cell cases? Moreover, who's making the black powder firearms we see most of the people armed with?

Who says they aren't recycling the spent PC cases by refilling them.

As for the firearms, there could be a large surplus of said ammunition (and an effort at recycling spent cases). Production of black-powder though doesn't require the same level of obvious industrialization as making fuel.

Unless, y'know, the military was wiped out almost overnight, leaving stockpiles behind... or a bunch of shuttles carrying supplies just happened to fall out of the sky.

And if the military stockpiles are at their facilities, it stands a good chance of being destroyed or the tanks otherwise damaged. The Invid don't seem to have focused their attacks on just military targets, so even facilities outside of the military are likely to be destroyed or damaged.

Yet they had "massive" stockpiles of protoculture... why would they stockpile fuel they don't use and not stockpile fuel they do?

They use the fuel (Reflex Furnaces and starship fold systems). PC supply is going to be finite, so it makes sense they would stockpile what they could since they don't know when they might be getting more. It doesn't make sense that they would stockpile Hydrogen supplies in useable form that could last decades if they have the ability to produce more on demand.

The means to produce something more conventional, like liquid hydrogen, aren't all that massive... and would probably have shrunk even further thanks to advancements in technology.

While the technology could advance making it more efficient, hydrogen has storage issues that can't be ignored. And liquid hydrogen is a cryogenic substance, so will need to keep the material at the proper temp, you will also need some method to deal with boil-off.

And As Emerson suggested in TRM saga, they could use a stockpile of PC as a bargaining chip. Terrans seem intent on protecting what is left of the PC supply for some reason even in post-FOA TMS (when just destroying the stuff might make more sense).

For evidentiary purposes, that it isn't referenced or even mentioned means your argument has zero basis in fact... because you're not arguing a demonstrated capacity, you're tossing around supposition that may have no connection to what's actually shown (or contradicts major plot points).
The Evidence is that Impulse system exists in dialogue. It is also presented and used as an alternative to PC. Both are demonstrated capacity in the show. The only real supposition is what the Impulse system actually entails beyond not require PC to fuel a vehicle.

Yet, if you look at the backgrounds in that wreck, you see large numbers of intact supply crates...

That doesn't mean they have alternate fuel supplies to the group (which might be in specialized containers) or haven't already been looted (and just not visible from those angles).

[Seto Kaiba]

As for the firearms, there could be a large surplus of said ammunition (and an effort at recycling spent cases). Production of black-powder though doesn't require the same level of obvious industrialization as making fuel.

So... your contention is that, in a society where the common level is laser pistols, there are a large number of antique firearms in perfectly serviceable order that somehow escaped the near total annihilation of Earth THREE TIMES?

The latest in a long series of head-scratchers.

And if the military stockpiles are at their facilities, it stands a good chance of being destroyed or the tanks otherwise damaged. The Invid don't seem to have focused their attacks on just military targets, so even facilities outside of the military are likely to be destroyed or damaged.

But that's not consistent with the series itself, where we're shown that the Invid don't attack arbitrarily... they leave wrecks alone and only focus on signs of actual protoculture activity or culling troublemakers with the aid of turncoats. Even when they attack military bases, they've historically left mecha completely intact and ignored if they weren't powered on.

It doesn't make sense that they would stockpile Hydrogen supplies in useable form that could last decades if they have the ability to produce more on demand.

Since the most accessible source of hydrogen in a readily process-able form would be the upper atmosphere of Jupiter, something they could lose contact with under invasion conditions, there would be plenty of incentive to stockpile... though having fuel reserves is SOP for pretty much any military.

The Evidence is that Impulse system exists in dialogue.

Your "evidence" is contingent entirely upon interpretation... interpretation which contradicts the explicitly-stated circumstances of the setting.

[ShadowLogan]

So... your contention is that, in a society where the common level is laser pistols, there are a large number of antique firearms in perfectly serviceable order that somehow escaped the near total annihilation of Earth THREE TIMES?

Except energy weapons where not exclusively used, even by the military (Angelo mentions wanting a pistol that doesn't jam, Annie was wielding a projectile weapon among the military wreckage in NG#2 and again at Denver, Nader's Armor Piercing Cannon that Lunk acquired). So it is possible that a mix of conventional and energy weapons existed even before the Invid Invasion. Civilian use of projectile weapons may be more common than in the military.

But that's not consistent with the series itself, where we're shown that the Invid don't attack arbitrarily... they leave wrecks alone and only focus on signs of actual protoculture activity or culling troublemakers with the aid of turncoats. Even when they attack military bases, they've historically left mecha completely intact and ignored if they weren't powered on.

Someone needs to review the first montage of Ep61 that deals with the Invasion. The Invid are shown to strike at least one city and have battles in urban environments, so upon arrival did not have a targeted mindset. Their more focused actions are really only seen during the later part of their ~15year occupation, by which time the damage could already be done to those sites w/regard to their value.

The Invid arrive much to fast at Rand's crash site IMHO to not have been practically there. Rand merely exits the Horizon and comes to a stop and the Invid are already there. That suggests the Invid where headed to the crash site already.

Given Point K's size, you would think the team would find a lot more useable material than what they did. The site had to have been picked over (human or Invid) OR they had to leave in a hurry OR some combination of them since there is no true indication when PT-K was wiped out (it also helps that no bodies are apparent).

The Invid also converted an ASC Base ("Mountain Offense outpost" Scott in Ep72) into a Hive. Since we don't know if the base was abandoned prior to arrival, it may or may not have been subject to an Invid attack.

In Ep83 the Invid are searching the battle site that had Sue Gramn's battle group (with Shadow Fighters) and where searching the site for the Synro-Canon.

So we see the Invid do investigate sites. It is entirely possible that when they do investigate they are targeted toward certain items and ignore others, which would be an aspect of their alien mindset.

Since the most accessible source of hydrogen in a readily process-able form would be the upper atmosphere of Jupiter, something they could lose contact with under invasion conditions, there would be plenty of incentive to stockpile... though having fuel reserves is SOP for pretty much any military.

Actually due to Jupiter's gravity (and other factors at Jupiter) it may actually be more economical to target Saturn and skip Jupiter, even with the longer trip time. This of course ignores Earth's natural hydrogen supply (it may be chemically bonded, but we have been making hydrogen industrially for decades now).

I don't object to having a Hydrogen Stockpile itself, my objection is in the SIZE of the Stockpile. There is a big difference between a 90-day supply of ready SLMH/H2 fuel and 3,652.5+ day (10+year) supply.

Your "evidence" is contingent entirely upon interpretation... interpretation which contradicts the explicitly-stated circumstances of the setting.

It does not contradict the 85ep (which is supposed to have precedent over newer works). It is used on 3 separate platforms, in the same manner as an alternate approach to continued operation w/o the use of PC fuel. There is very little that it contingent upon interpretation (that it is fusion, but even that is derived from the way the Masters use it for an interstellar voyage since most other propulsion options are not up to the task).

[Seto Kaiba]

Except energy weapons where not exclusively used, even by the military (Angelo mentions wanting a pistol that doesn't jam, Annie was wielding a projectile weapon among the military wreckage in NG#2 [...]

Er... you've got some inaccuracies there. Angelo does say that, but isn't he holding a gun the RPG alleges is a laser? Also, the gun Annie is firing wildly in the second episode there is, if you actually look at it, the MOSPEADA "laser submachinegun" which the RT RPG calls the Wolf laser pistol... just equipped with the optional barrel cooling sleeve, stock, and extended mag.

If you'd like to see art of that gun, GearsOnline has it listed under "Stick's submachinegun".

Nader's Armor Piercing Cannon that Lunk acquired).

The RPG calls it a railgun, but the series is mute on what type of weapon it is, and I don't think MOSPEADA sources identify it either way. It's still a damn sight more advanced than what appear to be late 19th century revolvers.

Someone needs to review the first montage of Ep61 that deals with the Invasion. The Invid are shown to strike at least one city and have battles in urban environments, so upon arrival did not have a targeted mindset.

Battles where military vehicles were actively resisting... not just the Invid going on a lolrandom rampage through a city. Even when the weapons aren't using protoculture, the Invid aren't so stupid they won't notice when they're being shot at... even the RPG says that much.

The Invid arrive much to fast at Rand's crash site IMHO to not have been practically there. Rand merely exits the Horizon and comes to a stop and the Invid are already there. That suggests the Invid where headed to the crash site already.

The Invid didn't seem to have any interest in the site until Rand started up a Cyclone... that suggests they were simply "in the neighborhood".

In Ep83 the Invid are searching the battle site that had Sue Gramn's battle group (with Shadow Fighters) and where searching the site for the Synro-Canon.

Fancy that... the Invid were searching for a huge damn cannon that was probably shooting at them.

It does not contradict the 85ep (which is supposed to have precedent over newer works). It is used on 3 separate platforms, in the same manner as an alternate approach to continued operation w/o the use of PC fuel.

No, you're ASSUMING that's the case... it's only actually stated in ONE of those cases.

[ShadowLogan]

Er... you've got some inaccuracies there. Angelo does say that, but isn't he holding a gun the RPG alleges is a laser? Also, the gun Annie is firing wildly in the second episode there is, if you actually look at it, the MOSPEADA "laser submachinegun" which the RT RPG calls the Wolf laser pistol... just equipped with the optional barrel cooling sleeve, stock, and extended mag.

Yes the RPG does state it is an energy weapon (1E and 2E). However, from the perspective of the show is less clear on it since IIRC it is never used, but apparently has an issue with jamming which could apply to both.

As for Annie's Rifle, the RPG asserts that it is a projectile weapon and has since 1E (both ed, call it the Wolverine). From an acoutic perspective for the Show RT's sound effects give it a projectile sound rather than energy weapon sound (atleast with Legacy) IMHO.

However, those are not the only examples one can point to in TRM saga for projectile weapons. Nova does draw what appears to be a contemporary pistol though (9mm/.45cal style). A similar make is also used on the training range w/ZP. Those are from the show. And the 2E RPG does bring in several additional projectile weapons in use by both the UEEF and UEDF:ASC:
M-30 Pistol, M-46 Submachinegun, and the M-37 Pistol for the UEEF (per TSC RPG, plus the M-55 Annie uses)
M-37/35/33 Pistols, M-25 Rifle, M-27 (regular, w/some modification), M-29 for the UEDF:ASC (per Masters SB)

The ASC ones are more relevant, but they show Earth would have a stockpile of conventional ammunition.

The RPG calls it a railgun, but the series is mute on what type of weapon it is, and I don't think MOSPEADA sources identify it either way. It's still a damn sight more advanced than what appear to be late 19th century revolvers.

I am aware the 2E RPG calls it a railgun, and the show itself is a bit mute on the matter. Still it shows that projectile weapons had not completely fallen out of use on Earth before the Invid Invasion. While the railgun itself is more advanced, the ammunition round itself IS comparable to the period before self-contained cartridges and they had to pack the powder (which the railgun doesn't need) and the round in separately.

Battles where military vehicles were actively resisting... not just the Invid going on a lolrandom rampage through a city. Even when the weapons aren't using protoculture, the Invid aren't so stupid they won't notice when they're being shot at... even the RPG says that much.

Urban battles I don't object to the statement per say, those are still frames afterall, however the Invid are shown to attack a city during the invasion without any apparent provocation upon arrival.

The Invid didn't seem to have any interest in the site until Rand started up a Cyclone... that suggests they were simply "in the neighborhood".

They could be in the neighborhood and on regular patrol. It just seems awfully convenient timing, which does leave the possibility that they where already enroute to the crash site.

Fancy that... the Invid were searching for a huge damn cannon that was probably shooting at them.

That the search was started because someone shot at them with the canon I don't doubt, but the search was still on by the point the Stage5 showed up which is well after the battle had concluded by all available indications. The Stage 5 shows up after the Shadow Fighter briefing, which is some time after the battle since Sue could show the team holo recordings.

No, you're ASSUMING that's the case... it's only actually stated in ONE of those cases.

I don't think it is an assumption. Impulse is being used in both incidents in relation to 3 platforms as an alternate to PC fuel consumption. That is not an assumption, that is plain fact from the dialogue. What ever Impulse actually is, we know it does not require PC fuel to operate due to the dialogue.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes the RPG does state it is an energy weapon (1E and 2E). However, from the perspective of the show is less clear on it since IIRC it is never used, [...]

As far as I am aware, the vaguely Luger-esque pistol in question is never fired, no... but, if you account for the favored type of energy weapon in use by some branches of the service, it may be capable of jamming. (See below)

[...] but apparently has an issue with jamming which could apply to both.

It's possible that the idea of a mechanical jam could still apply to the pistol even if it's really a laser weapon. Remember, several of the UEEF's rifles are laser weapons are e-cap guns which fire not from a single, monolithic battery, but from a mechanically-fed magazine of small power cells which are ejected from the weapon when spent (the best example is the H90 Laser Hound which RT calls the Gallant). It'd be a jam if the spent cell fails to clear the contactors the way spent shell casings sometimes fail to clear the slide.

As for Annie's Rifle, the RPG asserts that it is a projectile weapon and has since 1E (both ed, call it the Wolverine). From an acoutic perspective for the Show RT's sound effects give it a projectile sound rather than energy weapon sound (atleast with Legacy) IMHO. [...]

Really? That's a harebrained error... it's visibly (and OSMly) the same laser pistol that the RPG calls the 9mm Wolf. Sound effects in Robotech aren't an infallible metric for determining a weapon's type, since they tend to use the sound effects without rhyme or reason (sometimes solid-ammo weapons make the "pew pew" laser noise, and lasers make a chatter).

The ASC ones are more relevant, but they show Earth would have a stockpile of conventional ammunition.

But all of it much more modern than the Old West-style revolvers that seem to be the standard on Earth under the Invid...

I am aware the 2E RPG calls it a railgun, and the show itself is a bit mute on the matter. Still it shows that projectile weapons had not completely fallen out of use on Earth before the Invid Invasion.

If its nature is highly dubious (as with the laser machine pistol above) due to failings of research or inexplicable error on Palladium's part, we can't really admit it as evidence... not reliably, anyway.

Urban battles I don't object to the statement per say, those are still frames afterall, however the Invid are shown to attack a city during the invasion without any apparent provocation upon arrival.

Without any provocation that we've seen... it's a well-known fact that Earth's military had some fairly xenophobic leadership (Emerson being an exception) and did have a nasty habit of getting over-antsy and shooting first (which is how they started the war with the Masters).

I don't think it is an assumption. Impulse is being used in both incidents in relation to 3 platforms as an alternate to PC fuel consumption. That is not an assumption, that is plain fact from the dialogue.

You just demonstrated with your statement here that it IS an assumption... you're assuming in the Masters case that it refers to an alternate source of fuel, rather than what's said there as merely an alternate form of propulsion. The two are not necessarily one and the same.

[ShadowLogan]

It's possible that the idea of a mechanical jam could still apply to the pistol even if it's really a laser weapon.

I agree there are ways for an energy weapon to jam, you have a physical trigger that can get stuck. Angelo could also be referring to a quick release mechanism for the magazine/clip, or less likely the magazine/clip gets stuck while being inserted. Perhaps even the safety mechanism could jam. Or when performing maintenance (disassemble/reassemble kind) parts can jam.

Really? That's a harebrained error... it's visibly (and OSMly) the same laser pistol that the RPG calls the 9mm Wolf. Sound effects in Robotech aren't an infallible metric for determining a weapon's type, since they tend to use the sound effects without rhyme or reason (sometimes solid-ammo weapons make the "pew pew" laser noise, and lasers make a chatter).

Yes they do, the Wolverine has been a projectile weapon in the RPG-verse since it was first published. Even the Wolf Pistol is a projectile weapon.

IINM there are only two instances when the Wolverine is used in the show, and both have consistent sound effect. That their sound effects might change from the OSM value to me just reinforces how unreliable that source is given that a variety of factors are known to have changed when integrated into RT.

But all of it much more modern than the Old West-style revolvers that seem to be the standard on Earth under the Invid...

It really wouldn't be a stretch for that ammunition type to be around though. We have no idea what the civilian market looked like, but if the military has access to conventional ammunition, then I don't see why civilians (or even govt. agencies who don't need that level of firepower) in the same period would not either.

Also depending on the specific old west style gun, the ammunition may be interchangeable. They can certainly break modern ammunition down and recycled in to be useable to.

If its nature is highly dubious (as with the laser machine pistol above) due to failings of research or inexplicable error on Palladium's part, we can't really admit it as evidence... not reliably, anyway.

No, but it is the closest we have to an official classification by HG.

The next closest thing is the Novels (Bk10 AND non Omnibus) have the take pg176 (both books): "Lunk knew it by its slang term- a "stinger"- a lightweight autocannon no larger than a turn-of-the-century M-70 machine gun that ran on Protoculture and delivered piercing bursts of Reflex firepower." Which is very confusing, as it could be anything from firing explosive rounds fitted with reflex warheads, to a beam weapon (though I'm not sure if it fits the proper definition of an autocannon), to a railgun (hitting with the kinetic energy of a reflex weapon).

Without any provocation that we've seen... it's a well-known fact that Earth's military had some fairly xenophobic leadership (Emerson being an exception) and did have a nasty habit of getting over-antsy and shooting first (which is how they started the war with the Masters).

While possible, the animation strongly suggests the Invid, unlike the Masters and Zentraedi, did not take up position in orbit and do probe actions first. They came in hard and fast without stopping. If it was anything like the Phoenix departure, the ASC remnant would not have had a chance to shoot first as the UEEF didn't even get a shot off at it.

You just demonstrated with your statement here that it IS an assumption... you're assuming in the Masters case that it refers to an alternate source of fuel, rather than what's said there as merely an alternate form of propulsion. The two are not necessarily one and the same.

They lack the PC to fuel the Fold Drives which requires them to turn to Impulse Power (could be propulsion, could merely be an alternate energy source), that points to Impulse being PC free because they would be using PC for the Fold Drive if Impulse Power was PC fueled.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes they do, the Wolverine has been a projectile weapon in the RPG-verse since it was first published. Even the Wolf Pistol is a projectile weapon.

I'm gonna go back and check that... maybe my memory's playing me false here, but I could have sworn that was listed as a laser weapon like the other Mars Base hardware. When it's used later in the series without the detachable stock and barrel cooling sleeve, it's shown as the same kind of laser weapon as the H90.

No, but it is the closest we have to an official classification by HG. [...]

Just one that may or may not actually apply to Robotech...

The next closest thing is the Novels (Bk10 AND non Omnibus) have the take pg176 (both books): "Lunk knew it by its slang term- a "stinger"- a lightweight autocannon no larger than a turn-of-the-century M-70 machine gun that ran on Protoculture and delivered piercing bursts of Reflex firepower." Which is very confusing, [...]

... ... ... yeah, I have NO idea what to make of that. "Autocannon" implies a solid-ammo cannon but they say it runs on protoculture and delivers "reflex firepower" in bursts? It's like they're in two minds about whether or not it's an energy weapon...

They lack the PC to fuel the Fold Drives which requires them to turn to Impulse Power (could be propulsion, could merely be an alternate energy source), that points to Impulse being PC free because they would be using PC for the Fold Drive if Impulse Power was PC fueled.

Specifically, they say they lack the protoculture to fold all the way there... so they cut it short and cruise the rest of the way in on sublight.

[guardiandashi]

Yes they do, the Wolverine has been a projectile weapon in the RPG-verse since it was first published. Even the Wolf Pistol is a projectile weapon.

I'm gonna go back and check that... maybe my memory's playing me false here, but I could have sworn that was listed as a laser weapon like the other Mars Base hardware. When it's used later in the series without the detachable stock and barrel cooling sleeve, it's shown as the same kind of laser weapon as the H90.

No, but it is the closest we have to an official classification by HG. [...]

Just one that may or may not actually apply to Robotech...

The next closest thing is the Novels (Bk10 AND non Omnibus) have the take pg176 (both books): "Lunk knew it by its slang term- a "stinger"- a lightweight autocannon no larger than a turn-of-the-century M-70 machine gun that ran on Protoculture and delivered piercing bursts of Reflex firepower." Which is very confusing, [...]

... ... ... yeah, I have NO idea what to make of that. "Autocannon" implies a solid-ammo cannon but they say it runs on protoculture and delivers "reflex firepower" in bursts? It's like they're in two minds about whether or not it's an energy weapon...

the stinger isn't necessarily contradictory if you assume for a moment that it is a badly worded railgun, weapon, basically its a burst fire weapon (the lightweight autocannon part) about the size of a m70 machine gun, that uses protoculture power systems to drive the "rail boosters" that make it work. (it may also be the Armor Piercing Cannon from the new gen sourcebook pg 38 mentioned as being used by lunk in "paper Hero"
25lb 4000 ft range, 1d4x10 md/shot 2d4x10 for a 4 round burst ammo 18 rounds per "magazine" or 60 round belts, the protoculture cell lasts 240 shots or 60 bursts