Char. Gen. Have I been doing it wrong?

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

When I started playing I was told to determine my Hit Points by adding 1d6 to my PE number. So that's what I did (in the following fashion). I finished out my character, totaling up all attribute bonuses from skills until I had final #'s for all 8 attributes. Then I added 1d6 to the FINAL PE #.
The games were Tmnt, HU1r, ATB2, and PF

In reviewing BTS2 I notice that the text says (paraphrased) "know those attributes you rolled in step 1? Look at your PE #, now add 1d6 to it. Those are your Hit Points" This totaling of hit points happens way before any skill related bonuses are made to the PE # and thus represent a much lower value.

Have I been doing it wrong all these years? How do you all go about determining HP?

I'd be really honored if Kevin or one of the other game designers could weigh in on this.

Thank you.

Nate

[jaymz]

I do the "Final Attribute after skills + 1d6"

I do not think it ever truly defines it as such and I do it that way because the hit point section comes before OCC/RCC selection and thus does not actually take the possibility of skill bonuses having an effect. Hit Points/SDC/MDC shoudl be determined near the very end of ht character process in my opinion.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I do the "Final Attribute after skills + 1d6"

So you do yours the same way I've been doing mine for the past 25 years.
Near the end when all the numbers are totaled up. I agree SDC isn't finalized until the end after it is all added up. HP shouldn't either.

That said, I still wind up with some characters who are rather squishy. I think on average all of my PC's were SL 6-8. With most leaning toward 6. I liked using my Bio-E to buy animal features. So the starting SDC value wasn't that high to begin with.

[jaymz]

And it isn't like the extra +1 or 2 PE means all that much to HP (it's only 1 or 2 additional HP thatway so nothing earth shattering by any stretch).

[Eashamahel]

You are supposed to roll HP before skills, including physical skills. There's a reason it's like this, and that has to do with what PF was based off of and the creation of physical skills, ect, and how what it is based off of realized this issue and changed it, but currently, you're supposed to roll it before skills.

That being said, most people I have met roll it after skills.

[Natasha]

Character Creation is not the linear process presented in the books. As I recall, Ninjas & Superspies actually says to wait until after skills are selected to roll Hit Points. Erick seemed to pay a little more attention to detail.

I will always take extra Hit Points up front if possible because it is a psychological thing; later when I reach the hard to reach levels if I roll a 1 I can tell myself it is not that bad. (Not really, rolling low Hit Points is always a kick in the teeth especially at higher levels.)

I also think that in every game the intention of the creator is to roll after P.E. is final.

[Nightmask]

I've never done anything or even thought to do it any other way but calculate it after determining the final PE for the character since the stat often changes (just like I wouldn't determine PS damage until final PS was calculated).

[MADMANMIKE]

Generally I've always done it adding in the bonuses, but I haven't played BTS2E.. Don't forget that the rules in each game are different for a reason, they're setting specific. Megaversal means that characters from one game setting can be taken to another with little modification, not one set of rules for all the games...

[42dragon]

I have always used the final attribute number after all skills, OCC bonuses, ect.. then adding the +1d6.

The typically extra +1 to +4 don't make a huge difference in most games, however for the few races that get multipliers to SDC, PPE, or HP based on their PE score it can make a bigger difference. That could save your life.

[MADMANMIKE]

Okay, having now pulled BTS2E off the shelf and reviewed that section, I now better understand your confusion. In creating a character, I always stress to my new players to write lightly in pencil, as the bonuses and attributes are going to change as they pick their skills and abilities. Nothing in BTS2E says you cannot add the P.E. attribute bonus from skills to your Hit Points.

So when you pick skills, if you pick a skill that has one, you add it in, and that naturally will be added to the appropriate pools as well..

[jaymz]

Okay, having now pulled BTS2E off the shelf and reviewed that section, I now better understand your confusion. In creating a character, I always stress to my new players to write lightly in pencil, as the bonuses and attributes are going to change as they pick their skills and abilities. Nothing in BTS2E says you cannot add the P.E. attribute bonus from skills to your Hit Points.

So when you pick skills, if you pick a skill that has one, you add it in, and that naturally will be added to the appropriate pools as well..

This.

[Killer Cyborg]

Character Creation is not the linear process presented in the books. As I recall, Ninjas & Superspies actually says to wait until after skills are selected to roll Hit Points. Erick seemed to pay a little more attention to detail.

Essentially correct.
N&S 13
Take a look at your PE attribute. you rolled it up with the original eight attributes and then you may have been able to add to it when different Martial Arts forms and Skills were selected. The final PE will be equal to your character's base/starting amount of Hit Points.
and
After determining your base hit points, pick up one six-sided die, roll it, and add the number rolled to your hit point base.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Glad to know I am not alone in the way I've been doing things. Mike thanks for looking up the section on HP and adding in your thoughts. The way it is worded is what through me. NO, it doesn't say you cannot add PE bonuses to your final HP number. But by omitting the instructions to do so, it gave me pause and made me think that maybe I wasn't supposed to.

Either way, adding up all the PE then the 1d6 or adding PE+1d6 and then PE bonuses you'll still get the same final number.

I've got to go with Jaymz though, I think the HP/SDC determination should be near the end of the char. gen. process.

Thanks for your responses.
Nate

PS no need to let the thread die. I'm sure there are other gamers out there who have an opinion one way or another.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nether of the given options.

This one "starting Hit Points are the [PE score + Skill/Occ/Rcc bonuses (as applicable)] and bonuses to HP If there are any".
In other words...HP is the PE score after all the modifications have been done to it along with any direct bonuses to HP from other modifying items. With the 1st +1d6 per level coming with level 2.

[Janus]

Always done all bonuses and the D6 roll.

[MADMANMIKE]

...With the 1st +1d6 per level coming with level 2.

I'm sorry man, but you're wrong on this one.. There is specific text explaining to add that D6 during character gen in most of the core rule books. Sorry not to do exact quotes but I'm at work and don't have my books..

[eliakon]

...With the 1st +1d6 per level coming with level 2.

I'm sorry man, but you're wrong on this one.. There is specific text explaining to add that D6 during character gen in most of the core rule books. Sorry not to do exact quotes but I'm at work and don't have my books..

Clearest statement on this I could find is in the HU2 book
(I am not going to quote an entire paragraph from a book thus the ellipses)
Pg 225
Level of Experience
The term, "per level of experience" or "per experience level" refers to the experience level of the character using the super ability. This is a very important distinction.....
....may indicate something like Range: 100 feel + 10 feet per level...1d6 S.D.C. per level....This means that a third level superbeing can fire the blast 130 feet and inflict 3d6 points of damage - 1d6 per level of experience.

Since all the hit point examples either say to roll one d6 now. or say 1d6 hp per level, its clear you get 1d6 at level 1, another d6 at level 2, and so on.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes, +1d6 HP at L1
RT2
RUE
HU2 (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
SF (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
N&S (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
PF2 (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
ATB2 (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in Experience level HP text)
BTS2
PF1 (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
BTS1 (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
HU1 (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
NB (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
RMB (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)
RT1 (the text supporting this is in the wrong place, in building HP text)

Hmmm its a wonder why I said what I did....maybe because most of the PB Main Books do not have the +1d6 @ L1 text in the how to determine the "Base HP" section of the text.

[MADMANMIKE]

Hmmm its a wonder why I said what I did....maybe because most of the PB Main Books do not have the +1d6 @ L1 text in the how to determine the "Base HP" section of the text.

No wonder really, as the "per level of experience" usually falls on the "starting at level 2" not at the start. We've sided together on that issue with skills in more than a couple of threads.

[PSI-Lence]

i tend to put the base number as PE then as i go on add +x from the bonus and skills (if PE goes up i add that amount to my + section) then after it's all done +1D6

i always go with the 'per level' to mean starting first level and on

[MADMANMIKE]

i tend to put the base number as PE then as i go on add +x from the bonus and skills (if PE goes up i add that amount to my + section) then after it's all done +1D6

i always go with the 'per level' to mean starting first level and on

The 'per level' is defined in a few different places.. If it's on a skill, then you start adding at level 2, but for hit points it clearly states in pretty much every iteration of Palladium's rule sets that you add at first level.

[Damian Magecraft]

i tend to put the base number as PE then as i go on add +x from the bonus and skills (if PE goes up i add that amount to my + section) then after it's all done +1D6

i always go with the 'per level' to mean starting first level and on

The 'per level' is defined in a few different places.. If it's on a skill, then you start adding at level 2, but for hit points it clearly states in pretty much every iteration of Palladium's rule sets that you add at first level.

Off Topic

Spoiler:

I have found if you add the "per level" bonus to skills at level one it helps resolve the ever popular question "what if I use a skill I did not take?" By answering it with you roll against the base of said skill. (I would restrict certain skills [like Medical: MD] to requires training to preform however).

On Topic
I have always calculated HP as PE+skills+racial+powers+6 at level one and +1d6 every level there after. (I like my players to start with max hp possible since rolling a one for that first hp bump sucks eggs when the guy next to you rolled a six).