Cold Weather Concerns and Questions

[Glistam]

In our campaign we'll be looking to start exploring some cold places soon. In preparation I was looking through Rifts: Canada and Rifts: Russia for guidance, but I'm coming up a little short. Here are my questions:

At what cold temperatures do "normal" Rifts vehicles start having issues with starting, and running? I see in some of the vehicles designed for the cold environments that they state what temperatures they are good for, and they'll talk about how other vehicles have certain issues, but there's no hard data that I can see.

What about other equipment - weapons, radios, etcetera. Is there a cutoff temperature where these things will not work?

If something's designed to function in space indefinitely (power supply/oxygen permitting), will it still suffer possible breakdowns in cold weather environments?

How cold does it have to get before one should start being "concerned" that their body armor environmental feature will burn out within 12 hours?

Rifts: Canada has a table listing the penalties associated with various degrees of Hypothermia, but no good criteria for when a character reaches each of those points.

I understand (and hope) that I may have missed stuff, but as I try to work out the sort of gear our characters should be wearing, spares to have on hand, and contingencies for equipment breakdown, I am dismayed that I can't find any actual rules for these things, only the penalties for when they happen. Any help, and especially any book & page numbers, would be greatly appreciated. Even if the "answers" are in another Palladium game, that would be helpful.

[kaid]

I think both the rifts canada book and warlords of russia both have good writeups on the gameplay effects of cold.

My rule of thumb in real life is for vehicles is pretty much even cheap junkers are good to 0F with no problems. Once you start getting down to the -15 -20 you can start encountering issues with batteries on cars and everything is sluggish and grumbly. Once you get to -50 air temps things start to break. Your vehicles unless kept running all night are unlikely to work in the morning. Parts that were working will shatter randomly from becoming brittle in the cold or malfunction in unusual ways.

One weird instance I saw of this was air temps got to -40 and my break warning light on my car came on. The brake fluid I had apparently had contracted so much in the cold that it gave a low fluid level light until the system was given a long enough time to warm up. Other weirdness is things like my old cars speedometer did not work in temps lower than -20F. The metal in the flywheel would contract so much it would no longer mesh and just made a hideous grinding noise until it warmed up.

Most robot vehicles are probably better at the extreme temps simply because they are nuke powered and you can keep them on indefinitely so at least the internals are kept at working temp constantly. But your hovercycles/hover cars if you turn them off or if they are internal combustion engineens/battery powered good luck getting them started when left sitting overnight when the temps hit -20 or worse.

Hypothermia is a tricky beast you can get it even if the air temp is not even freezing it is hard to give a strict guidline because everybody has a bit different tolerance for it and it also depends on did you get wet and if so how long. I watch this alaska survival race show. One trained navy seal swam about a half mile of open glacial fed lake water and was still functional when he got to the other side. At another stage a different competitor fell into a river for probably 5 minutes tops and they immediately had to stop and go through the warming steps because he clearly had become seriously hypothermic.

its really a GM call when to start making those checks. Key factors are air temp and water immersion/soaked clothing. Wet clothing will wick your body heat away alarmingly fast which is why sweating while wearing cold weather clothing can be dangerous.

I would say most space designed gear is unlikely to be damaged by exposure to any cold you would find on earth. It may get stiff and hard to move in but unlikely to break due to the temps.

For the EBA temp where you run into dangers of burning the heating element out you are probably looking at -15 or below air temps. Above that the insulation of the armor and body heat of the wearer is probably enough that no active heating is required. Once you start going into the -15,-20 range your heating unit is going to start having to work to keep the temp set and if you start getting into the siberian air that is -40,-50 the heating element is going to be working really hard to keep the internal temp up.

[flatline]

Nuclear powered vehicles can run internal heaters all the time, so they should never freeze up.

Fuel powered vehicles may suffer a host of problems depending on the situation ranging from weak battery (due to frozen electrolyte), gelled fuel (for diesel or other heavy fuels), ice crystals in non-gelled fuel, control systems that malfunction because individual components are frozen or sluggish, etc.

Instead of thinking of all the things that can go wrong, I think it's better to just decide on the types of precautions that you think are necessary and then assume that things work as long as the players follow the necessary precautions.

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

At what cold temperatures do "normal" Rifts vehicles start having issues with starting, and running? I see in some of the vehicles designed for the cold environments that they state what temperatures they are good for, and they'll talk about how other vehicles have certain issues, but there's no hard data that I can see.

pg32, "Travel by Hoversled" points to 0F/-18C

For fliers (flying PA, aircraft, flying 'bots), I would research the air temp at their max altitude to get an idea of the temp. extremes they can handle. Even then it is still possible they could have ice build up on surfaces that impede flight (this is an issue w/real aircraft, so i don't see Rifts vehicles being any better).

Even though 'bots/PA/vehicles can have nuclear power which won't be effected by the cold so much, other components may have issues unless the system was designed w/the cold temp. in mind, and even then you still have to watch out for ice build up that can impede operation. This though requires precipitation to be present, and ice buildup is likely an issue with equipment that has moving parts (switches, levers, clasps, hinges, buttons, etc).

Fluids will start to freeze at their freezing temp. unless you can keep them warm (heaters may not be automatic). So think of the common fluids components are likely to use, and research freezing temp.

[Natasha]

Guns with moving parts, when oiled with cold weather oil, should operate fine. Energy guns would not have many moving parts to worry about.

A high quality radio ought to operate from -30 to +60 C (-22 to 140 F), perhaps even greater extremes are available in Rifts. Battery life is not something I ever worry about in games.

If something is designed to work in space, then one can presume it can work in temperatures not found under the protection of the atmosphere of Earth. I would not worry about such equipment.

[Glistam]

At what cold temperatures do "normal" Rifts vehicles start having issues with starting, and running? I see in some of the vehicles designed for the cold environments that they state what temperatures they are good for, and they'll talk about how other vehicles have certain issues, but there's no hard data that I can see.

pg32, "Travel by Hoversled" points to 0F/-18C

Thank you, this was some info I missed in Rifts Canada. It's unfortunate that more of the answers I need aren't actually in the books.

[sirkermittsg]

I goggled temperature in space... and found an article with this line: "In the void between planets, star systems and galaxies, the temperature in space is generally considered to be 2.725 Kelvin which is -454.72°F (-270.4°C)."

is something can work in space, then most assuredly it wont have a problem working on earth.

[Natasha]

Obviously the temperature varies wildly with distance from the nearest star.

[Nightmask]

I goggled temperature in space... and found an article with this line: "In the void between planets, star systems and galaxies, the temperature in space is generally considered to be 2.725 Kelvin which is -454.72°F (-270.4°C)."

is something can work in space, then most assuredly it wont have a problem working on earth.

Not necessarily, something that relies on that vacuum or heat sink to function likely is going to epic fail in such a lethally hot setting like earth where it never gets even close to that cold even on the coldest parts of the planet. Plus all that atmospheric humidity it's not built to worry about, oxygen exposure, etc.

Look at 'The Warm Space' by David Brin (which someone brought up around here in some thread) for an example of that. The robots had things optimized around the nature of normal space vacuum only to discover that those designs were completely unsuited to travel through hyper-space which they never bothered to temp check which was hot enough to leave water liquid. So their heat dissipaters couldn't function in such environs.

So you really do have to consider whether or not something's design will let it handle not just the conditions in space but the radically different conditions on a planet.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Another PB resource you might want to check out are the cold weather rules in the PF: Northern Hinterlands. There are even some spells that are cold weather environment specific for any mage in the party might have if the mage grew up in Canada regions of RE.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Nightmask made my point before I could. There is no moisture in space. So even if it can survive the deep cold of space it may not be set up to handle the moisture levels of atmospheric operation.

I hadn't considered the temp differences. I'd use the space temp as a minimum operating temperature. So if it works in space it can withstand temps down to - (whatever it was). I'd still want to spray it down with a water barrier though.

[flatline]

I goggled temperature in space... and found an article with this line: "In the void between planets, star systems and galaxies, the temperature in space is generally considered to be 2.725 Kelvin which is -454.72°F (-270.4°C)."

is something can work in space, then most assuredly it wont have a problem working on earth.

Not necessarily, something that relies on that vacuum or heat sink to function likely is going to epic fail in such a lethally hot setting like earth where it never gets even close to that cold even on the coldest parts of the planet. Plus all that atmospheric humidity it's not built to worry about, oxygen exposure, etc.

Look at 'The Warm Space' by David Brin (which someone brought up around here in some thread) for an example of that. The robots had things optimized around the nature of normal space vacuum only to discover that those designs were completely unsuited to travel through hyper-space which they never bothered to temp check which was hot enough to leave water liquid. So their heat dissipaters couldn't function in such environs.

So you really do have to consider whether or not something's design will let it handle not just the conditions in space but the radically different conditions on a planet.

It actually goes the other way. In a vacuum there is no conduction to help wick heat away from an object, so the only way to get rid of heat is by radiating it away. Any object with a power source will quickly overheat if the output of the power source exceeds the object's ability to radiate energy into space.

My favorite example of this is an astronaut in a space suite. To quote wikipedia's excellent article "liquid cooling and ventilation garment":

Because the space environment is essentially a vacuum, heat cannot be lost through heat convection, and can only be directly dissipated through thermal radiation, a much slower process. Thus, even though the environment of space can be extremely cold, excessive heat build-up is inevitable. Without an LCVG, there would be no means by which to expel this heat, and it would affect not only EVA performance, but the health of the suit occupant as well. The LCVG used with the Apollo/Skylab A7L suit could remove heat at a rate of approximately 586 watts.

In space, heat is the enemy, not its absence (assuming you can survive the vacuum, of course).

--flatline

[Nightmask]

I goggled temperature in space... and found an article with this line: "In the void between planets, star systems and galaxies, the temperature in space is generally considered to be 2.725 Kelvin which is -454.72°F (-270.4°C)."

is something can work in space, then most assuredly it wont have a problem working on earth.

Not necessarily, something that relies on that vacuum or heat sink to function likely is going to epic fail in such a lethally hot setting like earth where it never gets even close to that cold even on the coldest parts of the planet. Plus all that atmospheric humidity it's not built to worry about, oxygen exposure, etc.

Look at 'The Warm Space' by David Brin (which someone brought up around here in some thread) for an example of that. The robots had things optimized around the nature of normal space vacuum only to discover that those designs were completely unsuited to travel through hyper-space which they never bothered to temp check which was hot enough to leave water liquid. So their heat dissipaters couldn't function in such environs.

So you really do have to consider whether or not something's design will let it handle not just the conditions in space but the radically different conditions on a planet.

It actually goes the other way. In a vacuum there is no conduction to help wick heat away from an object, so the only way to get rid of heat is by radiating it away. Any object with a power source will quickly overheat if the output of the power source exceeds the object's ability to radiate energy into space.

I think you missed the point there, a cooling system that's based around getting rid of heat in an environment like space is not going to do well in a far hotter environment since the environment makes the heat differential so much smaller for one. Those radiators are going to be trying to put a lot of heat out into an environment without much room to absorb it so they're going to heat up far faster as there's nowhere for the heat to go. You need a cooling system designed to work in a much hotter setting and one with an atmosphere to think about.

My favorite example of this is an astronaut in a space suite. To quote wikipedia's excellent article "liquid cooling and ventilation garment":

Because the space environment is essentially a vacuum, heat cannot be lost through heat convection, and can only be directly dissipated through thermal radiation, a much slower process. Thus, even though the environment of space can be extremely cold, excessive heat build-up is inevitable. Without an LCVG, there would be no means by which to expel this heat, and it would affect not only EVA performance, but the health of the suit occupant as well. The LCVG used with the Apollo/Skylab A7L suit could remove heat at a rate of approximately 586 watts.

In space, heat is the enemy, not its absence (assuming you can survive the vacuum, of course).

--flatline

Of which it would still be problematic trying to get rid of that heat on a planet where the environment itself is averaging in the 70s. There might be a sweet spot in between (like Antarctica where you've a super-cooled atmosphere moving around which would absorb a lot of heat) but your average campaign is in locations a great deal hotter than the arctic circle.

[guardiandashi]

I goggled temperature in space... and found an article with this line: "In the void between planets, star systems and galaxies, the temperature in space is generally considered to be 2.725 Kelvin which is -454.72°F (-270.4°C)."

is something can work in space, then most assuredly it wont have a problem working on earth.

Not necessarily, something that relies on that vacuum or heat sink to function likely is going to epic fail in such a lethally hot setting like earth where it never gets even close to that cold even on the coldest parts of the planet. Plus all that atmospheric humidity it's not built to worry about, oxygen exposure, etc.

Look at 'The Warm Space' by David Brin (which someone brought up around here in some thread) for an example of that. The robots had things optimized around the nature of normal space vacuum only to discover that those designs were completely unsuited to travel through hyper-space which they never bothered to temp check which was hot enough to leave water liquid. So their heat dissipaters couldn't function in such environs.

So you really do have to consider whether or not something's design will let it handle not just the conditions in space but the radically different conditions on a planet.

It actually goes the other way. In a vacuum there is no conduction to help wick heat away from an object, so the only way to get rid of heat is by radiating it away. Any object with a power source will quickly overheat if the output of the power source exceeds the object's ability to radiate energy into space.

My favorite example of this is an astronaut in a space suite. To quote wikipedia's excellent article "liquid cooling and ventilation garment":

Because the space environment is essentially a vacuum, heat cannot be lost through heat convection, and can only be directly dissipated through thermal radiation, a much slower process. Thus, even though the environment of space can be extremely cold, excessive heat build-up is inevitable. Without an LCVG, there would be no means by which to expel this heat, and it would affect not only EVA performance, but the health of the suit occupant as well. The LCVG used with the Apollo/Skylab A7L suit could remove heat at a rate of approximately 586 watts.

In space, heat is the enemy, not its absence (assuming you can survive the vacuum, of course).

--flatline

consider temperature vs wind chill effective temperatures that's the sort of effect you can have where a cold atmospheric condition is effectively a lot colder than space in some cases, on the other hand there is absolute temperature to consider as well ... I remember the Heinlein novel have spacesuit will travel, (I am not saying its super accurate) but I found the description of what happened when his nylon, or fiberglass non space rated "rope" got down to ambient on pluto, and he "tugged on the rope. it was funny. anyway you can get conditions where atmospheric effects can wick away heat way faster than in a vacuum.

[flatline]

I goggled temperature in space... and found an article with this line: "In the void between planets, star systems and galaxies, the temperature in space is generally considered to be 2.725 Kelvin which is -454.72°F (-270.4°C)."

is something can work in space, then most assuredly it wont have a problem working on earth.

Not necessarily, something that relies on that vacuum or heat sink to function likely is going to epic fail in such a lethally hot setting like earth where it never gets even close to that cold even on the coldest parts of the planet. Plus all that atmospheric humidity it's not built to worry about, oxygen exposure, etc.

Look at 'The Warm Space' by David Brin (which someone brought up around here in some thread) for an example of that. The robots had things optimized around the nature of normal space vacuum only to discover that those designs were completely unsuited to travel through hyper-space which they never bothered to temp check which was hot enough to leave water liquid. So their heat dissipaters couldn't function in such environs.

So you really do have to consider whether or not something's design will let it handle not just the conditions in space but the radically different conditions on a planet.

It actually goes the other way. In a vacuum there is no conduction to help wick heat away from an object, so the only way to get rid of heat is by radiating it away. Any object with a power source will quickly overheat if the output of the power source exceeds the object's ability to radiate energy into space.

I think you missed the point there, a cooling system that's based around getting rid of heat in an environment like space is not going to do well in a far hotter environment since the environment makes the heat differential so much smaller for one. Those radiators are going to be trying to put a lot of heat out into an environment without much room to absorb it so they're going to heat up far faster as there's nowhere for the heat to go. You need a cooling system designed to work in a much hotter setting and one with an atmosphere to think about.

My favorite example of this is an astronaut in a space suite. To quote wikipedia's excellent article "liquid cooling and ventilation garment":

Because the space environment is essentially a vacuum, heat cannot be lost through heat convection, and can only be directly dissipated through thermal radiation, a much slower process. Thus, even though the environment of space can be extremely cold, excessive heat build-up is inevitable. Without an LCVG, there would be no means by which to expel this heat, and it would affect not only EVA performance, but the health of the suit occupant as well. The LCVG used with the Apollo/Skylab A7L suit could remove heat at a rate of approximately 586 watts.

In space, heat is the enemy, not its absence (assuming you can survive the vacuum, of course).

--flatline

Of which it would still be problematic trying to get rid of that heat on a planet where the environment itself is averaging in the 70s. There might be a sweet spot in between (like Antarctica where you've a super-cooled atmosphere moving around which would absorb a lot of heat) but your average campaign is in locations a great deal hotter than the arctic circle.

Indeed, it appears I misunderstood the point of the post that I was replying to. My apologies.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

I goggled temperature in space... and found an article with this line: "In the void between planets, star systems and galaxies, the temperature in space is generally considered to be 2.725 Kelvin which is -454.72°F (-270.4°C)."

is something can work in space, then most assuredly it wont have a problem working on earth.

Not necessarily, something that relies on that vacuum or heat sink to function likely is going to epic fail in such a lethally hot setting like earth where it never gets even close to that cold even on the coldest parts of the planet. Plus all that atmospheric humidity it's not built to worry about, oxygen exposure, etc.

Look at 'The Warm Space' by David Brin (which someone brought up around here in some thread) for an example of that. The robots had things optimized around the nature of normal space vacuum only to discover that those designs were completely unsuited to travel through hyper-space which they never bothered to temp check which was hot enough to leave water liquid. So their heat dissipaters couldn't function in such environs.

So you really do have to consider whether or not something's design will let it handle not just the conditions in space but the radically different conditions on a planet.

It actually goes the other way. In a vacuum there is no conduction to help wick heat away from an object, so the only way to get rid of heat is by radiating it away. Any object with a power source will quickly overheat if the output of the power source exceeds the object's ability to radiate energy into space.

I think you missed the point there, a cooling system that's based around getting rid of heat in an environment like space is not going to do well in a far hotter environment since the environment makes the heat differential so much smaller for one. Those radiators are going to be trying to put a lot of heat out into an environment without much room to absorb it so they're going to heat up far faster as there's nowhere for the heat to go. You need a cooling system designed to work in a much hotter setting and one with an atmosphere to think about.

My favorite example of this is an astronaut in a space suite. To quote wikipedia's excellent article "liquid cooling and ventilation garment":

Because the space environment is essentially a vacuum, heat cannot be lost through heat convection, and can only be directly dissipated through thermal radiation, a much slower process. Thus, even though the environment of space can be extremely cold, excessive heat build-up is inevitable. Without an LCVG, there would be no means by which to expel this heat, and it would affect not only EVA performance, but the health of the suit occupant as well. The LCVG used with the Apollo/Skylab A7L suit could remove heat at a rate of approximately 586 watts.

In space, heat is the enemy, not its absence (assuming you can survive the vacuum, of course).

--flatline

Of which it would still be problematic trying to get rid of that heat on a planet where the environment itself is averaging in the 70s. There might be a sweet spot in between (like Antarctica where you've a super-cooled atmosphere moving around which would absorb a lot of heat) but your average campaign is in locations a great deal hotter than the arctic circle.

Indeed, it appears I misunderstood the point of the post that I was replying to. My apologies.

--flatline

It's quite all right, nothing that needs an apology for.

[azazel1024]

I think both the rifts canada book and warlords of russia both have good writeups on the gameplay effects of cold.

My rule of thumb in real life is for vehicles is pretty much even cheap junkers are good to 0F with no problems. Once you start getting down to the -15 -20 you can start encountering issues with batteries on cars and everything is sluggish and grumbly. Once you get to -50 air temps things start to break. Your vehicles unless kept running all night are unlikely to work in the morning. Parts that were working will shatter randomly from becoming brittle in the cold or malfunction in unusual ways.

One weird instance I saw of this was air temps got to -40 and my break warning light on my car came on. The brake fluid I had apparently had contracted so much in the cold that it gave a low fluid level light until the system was given a long enough time to warm up. Other weirdness is things like my old cars speedometer did not work in temps lower than -20F. The metal in the flywheel would contract so much it would no longer mesh and just made a hideous grinding noise until it warmed up.

Most robot vehicles are probably better at the extreme temps simply because they are nuke powered and you can keep them on indefinitely so at least the internals are kept at working temp constantly. But your hovercycles/hover cars if you turn them off or if they are internal combustion engineens/battery powered good luck getting them started when left sitting overnight when the temps hit -20 or worse.

Hypothermia is a tricky beast you can get it even if the air temp is not even freezing it is hard to give a strict guidline because everybody has a bit different tolerance for it and it also depends on did you get wet and if so how long. I watch this alaska survival race show. One trained navy seal swam about a half mile of open glacial fed lake water and was still functional when he got to the other side. At another stage a different competitor fell into a river for probably 5 minutes tops and they immediately had to stop and go through the warming steps because he clearly had become seriously hypothermic.

its really a GM call when to start making those checks. Key factors are air temp and water immersion/soaked clothing. Wet clothing will wick your body heat away alarmingly fast which is why sweating while wearing cold weather clothing can be dangerous.

I would say most space designed gear is unlikely to be damaged by exposure to any cold you would find on earth. It may get stiff and hard to move in but unlikely to break due to the temps.

For the EBA temp where you run into dangers of burning the heating element out you are probably looking at -15 or below air temps. Above that the insulation of the armor and body heat of the wearer is probably enough that no active heating is required. Once you start going into the -15,-20 range your heating unit is going to start having to work to keep the temp set and if you start getting into the siberian air that is -40,-50 the heating element is going to be working really hard to keep the internal temp up.

There is a difference between space and being in an atmosphere environment that is super cold.

Conduction and convection at -80F are going to strip away heat a lot faster than radiation is going to even in complete darkness in space. Plus, at night, you also have radiation working against you in a cold environment.

I'd say regular EBA is going to start having issues once you are poking south of -20C, especially at night time. Daytime, you might be okay, ish or on a really overcast night, but you are still going to feel the chill. Once you hit -40 or so, not a chance, at least not without throwing some furs/parkas on top of your armor. Oh, you'd probably be fine for a few hours, but you are going TEAR through the battery in your EBA trying to keep the thing warm. Figure 4-6hrs and then you are mammory glands up on your battery and looking at freezing soon there after (the insulation in the EBA is probably at best good for conditions down to around 20F/-5C or so without supplementary clothing over the armor and/or using the heater in the suit.

Cold weather armor on the other hand...

For vehicles, down to 20F/-5C most stuff is probably going to be fine. Down to 0F/-15C or so is going to start causing problems with some stuff. The inbetween, mostly fine, but if something is near the limits of packing in, it probably will. Battery a bit weak, its not going to start. Hinges need lubrication badly? The door is probably going to stick.

Under 0F/-15C and lots of things are going to start having problems. Those are the kinds of temps where you need block heaters and/or special lubricants, batteries stop working, etc.

One thing to keep in mind is "use in" and "start using in" temperatures are different. You could start up a car in 0F weather and then drive it in -60F conditions most likely, so long as you were wearing some warm clothes in the car (pro tip, vehicle heater is barely going to put out any heat in those conditions, so the floor pans are going to be ice cold...like litterally). Just DO NOT TURN IT OFF. The heat from the engine is generally going to keep everything working the way it should. Now, trying to start said car in -60F weather is just not going to happen without some serious arctic weather conditioning.

I know Rifts has skewed things, but here are some typical and extreme temps.

The typical "cold weather" day in arctic or near arctic (or antarctic) areas is around -40F/C. Sometimes it can get a little lower at night and in a bad cold snap, but those are typically the colder days you are looking at. An "average" arctic day in the winter is probably looking at -10 to -20F/-25 to -30C. The coldest places likely reachable by PCs it can get down to around -70C (about -90F). A town in arctic Siberia has the distiniction for that cold temp, ~71C. Not something likely to be seen often or wide spread.

A bad cold spell is -50C in most artic places with the high arctic in the -60C range. Now the north pole and antartica can of course get colder and are typically colder in their respective winters than just simply "arctic" is, but even then the coldest temperature ever recorded was shy of -80C. You are still talking only around -60C in antartica on a typical day near the south pole in winter. In a southern hemisphere summer it can be down right balmy. Maybe even up around C on a warm day at the southpole!

[azazel1024]

As a mild anectdote, my friend does a lot of auroa photography. He was telling me about flying to Fairbanks last March (two Marches ago?). They had a cold spell and it was around -40F at night. He left the car running, as he was told NOT to turn it off, especially with the cold weather. Well, with it idling and the car heaters turned to max, he got back in after a couple of hours of photography and went to grab a banana to eat that had fallen on the floor as he had gotten out of the car 2 hours earlier. In those two hours it had frozen completely through. Like comical knock it on things hard kind of frozen solid.

He slept in the car instead of driving back because of some snow and waiting for the highway north from Fairbanks to be plowed (I think he said he drove around 60 miles north to be away from the city lights). He slept in a 20F sleeping bag and said it was okay, but a little chilly. In the car, with the heater running all night (yes, he brought a warmer weather sleeping bag rated to -20F as well as 2 extra cans of gas and a full tank and he also wasn't wearing his parka or anything in the bag. The point is, damn cold inside of a heated car at night when it gets that cold out).

[Natasha]

Put the parka under your armour, for same reason you do not put your sleeping bag around your car.

[glitterboy2098]

don't forget that rubber, plastic, and metal acts different at colder temps than it does at warmer ones. so you may have some issues with seals and such in extreme cold, even if the vehicle is technically rated for it.

also don't forget snow and ice can act oddly when exposed to both heat and cold at once.. a robot's joints might end up frozen with accumulated and compacted snow even if there are heaters on the joint itself, due to the insulating properties of snow.

and a good point about EBA batteries azazel.. would a system like we see in the new robotech rpg, where the suit has generators to make power as the person walks, help in that regard you think? as a way to cut back on battery use? or would that probably not cut it for heating?

[Natasha]

Battery life is a level of detail I never get into. In fact all of this is a level of detail I never get into, or at least have not yet felt the need to. That is why I went with the simple post I went with. Use radiators in space, do not worry about it atmosphere. I suppose a way around the issue of batteries is that an alternative system could be in place, instead of or as back up to batteries, such as a radioisotope thermoelectric generator.

[azazel1024]

Put the parka under your armour, for same reason you do not put your sleeping bag around your car.

I'd assume EBA is made such that you aren't going to have room for several inches of parka between you and the armor. I'd think at best you are looking at fitting regular BDUs under armor and that is it.

Same reason EBA insulation is only going to cut it on medium-cold weather without a heater. It likely isn't several inches of padding and insulation and then armor over top, its likely something like 1/2-1" of padding/insulation and coolant mesh between you and the armor, which is going to be roughly the equivelent of wearing a light weight parka over your entire body (think about how thick real artic parkas are, we are talking 3-4 inches, at least, of insulation, not an inch).

[azazel1024]

don't forget that rubber, plastic, and metal acts different at colder temps than it does at warmer ones. so you may have some issues with seals and such in extreme cold, even if the vehicle is technically rated for it.

also don't forget snow and ice can act oddly when exposed to both heat and cold at once.. a robot's joints might end up frozen with accumulated and compacted snow even if there are heaters on the joint itself, due to the insulating properties of snow.

and a good point about EBA batteries azazel.. would a system like we see in the new robotech rpg, where the suit has generators to make power as the person walks, help in that regard you think? as a way to cut back on battery use? or would that probably not cut it for heating?

It wouldn't cut it. Or not much. Your body, stationary, produces around 70 watts (60 Calories per hour). A person in resonable shape can output around 250 watts at an aerobic level (around 200 Calories), but this is the equivelent of a light jog, probably wearing that EBA and carrying stuff. A general walking pace is probably going to be around 150 watts.

Before going in to the math, keep in mind, not all of your Caloric activity is directly heat output related, some of that energy is used in digestion, moving you, etc, so it isn't straight heat generated.

Surface areas of the average adult male is 1.9m^2. Armored up, since it adds some bulk, is probably around 2.25m^2. Body temp is ~37C. If it is 0C outside with zero insulation, you'll need ~65W to stay temperature neutral, and with armor closer to 83W. That is assuming completely naked, no wind. Assuming the armor has very high efficiency insulation and an inch of it (which is probably too much), you are looking at more like 17W to stay temperature neutral. Figure a more resonable value of around 25W (R3.4) you are still fine without even a heater to stay warm. That's little "drag" on your own bodies systems to stay warm.

At night and trying to sleep you'd probably still need a little heater juice, or at least you'd be fine, but a little chilly ("sleeping" metabolic rate is around 50W/40 Calories per hour).

This is all at Freezing. Drop down to -37C, and you just doubled the heat loss. Now you are looking at 50W. Thats more than you are going to be able to keep up with at a resting state. You are going to have to be shivering heavily and/or moving around a lot to keep up with that kind of heat loss.

A 25-40W load on a heater isn't really all that much, especially with advanced batteries. The battery is assumed to be pretty tiny, and I think there are a few places where it says it supposed to be able to provide something like a week of power between swapping/recharging it. I'd assume this is rated at a week of use in moderate climates, figuring between 0C an 45C, not extreme climates. So if you figure around a 5W load between sensors and communications gear, maybe a 5W load on the air cleaning system and at most a 20W load on the heating/cooling system, you get around 168hrs fully buttoned up.

That's about a 5KWhr power cell. By current technology, that is around a 50lbs lithium ion battery, but with super advanced tech, a half pound battery sounds about right.

If you up the heater/cooler load because you are running around in extreme temps, you are going to drain it super fast.

Even assuming the heater itself is capable of being cranked so high, 0C and -37C would be roughly twice the load on the EBA's system, which means maybe 3-4 days, at most instead of a week. The wrinkle though is that at night you are going to radiate away heat faster, figure roughly 30-40% faster heat loss than during the daytime (heavy overcast at night, or under cover will greatly reduce that though), plus conduction through your feet/butt/back/whatever is touching the cold ground, will also increase that a fair amount.

So what you are really likely to be looking at is maybe 2 days (day+night) before you've burned through the power cell in the armor if it is down around -37C. That's an optimistic number. High winds, snow, etc can cut that even deeper as the heater is struggling to keep up. In really bad conditions around -37C might cut it down to a day and a half.

Go down ARCTIC cold around -60C and it might burn through the power cell is less than a day.

So, I think modern EBA can handle it, most likely. I see no reason why the heater couldn't go from 20W to 100W to keep up with the demand without burning out...but you are talking a day, at most in really brutal conditions, where as you could get a week before.

Throw on cold weather gear on top of your EBA and you could easily double, triple or quadruple the run time on your batteries. Or just don arctic EBA, which would probably be better, both between more insulation built in, but probably a beefier battery (or built with a couple built in), probably joints that are built to keep moisture/ice infiltration out so that joints don't get locked up with ice, visor built with a defroster built in so it can't ice over or fog over, etc. Its probably also designed with appropriate thermal camo for arctic conditions, which regular EBA wouldn't.

PS as a fun math experiment, using the same setup, you could survive in a 350C fire (a mild one) for around 2 seconds before your body temperature reached over 108F (IE dead). Of course, heat transfer isn't going to be that fast as the armor itself has some thermal mass, plus probably built to reduce radiative heat absorbtion, but still, figure a melee and you are going to be cooking, 2 and you are dead. No two ways about it. That's not "near" a fire, that would be standing right smack in the middle of a fire, whole body consumed type deal. As fire fighter gear, it would probably work really well to go running around in a burning building, so long as you weren't walking through much in the way of fire, just the heat nearby the fires. Of course the cooling system would get rapidly overloaded (no way it'll be able to keep up with hundreds of watts of cooling demands), but a lot better than conventional fire fighting gear.

[azazel1024]

RTG wouldn't work. Heat output of them is too low for something you could reasonably build as a "power cell" for something like a suit of body armor. Even extreme shrink of the tech surrounding it and 100% efficiency in converting the heat to power, you are talking something the size of a large fanny pack probably to power a suit of armor from an RTG, plus all of the issues of radioactive plutonium or strontium getting scattered everywhere from a battle, much worse than the fall out from PA and robots that might have their nuclease power supplies breached in a battle. You could never armor the RTG for armor nearly as well as a bot or PA's power supply can be armored.

For kinetic recovery, you could possibly do that to extend out the life of a battery, but it would really only work at most for light loads when no climate control system needs to be used. Talking maybe 3-6w power production at most before you start getting in to noticable drag on the wearer trying to recover power when walking (and it won't recharge anything when laying down/sleeping/not moving). For zero drag where you are just recovering compressive energy through 100% efficient piezo electric generators in the soles of the armor boots, you probably aren't talking more than a watt or two, so you are adding drag on the wearer making them more fatigued if you want any kind of real recharge ability for the power systems. Something like 20-30w to keep up with moderate power drain in something like freezing weather running the heater on low, or AC on low in maybe 40C weather would probably be the drag equivelent of walking in to a 30kph wind.

[Natasha]

Put the parka under your armour, for same reason you do not put your sleeping bag around your car.

I'd assume EBA is made such that you aren't going to have room for several inches of parka between you and the armor. I'd think at best you are looking at fitting regular BDUs under armor and that is it.

Hard to say in a one-size-fits-all imaginary world. Although at the time I probably had power armour on my brain. Nonetheless, insulation isn’t strictly thickness; the material matters. In a futuristic science fiction imaginary world who knows what they’ve come up with.

RTG wouldn't work. Heat output of them is too low for something you could reasonably build as a "power cell" for something like a suit of body armor. Even extreme shrink of the tech surrounding it and 100% efficiency in converting the heat to power, you are talking something the size of a large fanny pack probably to power a suit of armor from an RTG, plus all of the issues of radioactive plutonium or strontium getting scattered everywhere from a battle, much worse than the fall out from PA and robots that might have their nuclease power supplies breached in a battle. You could never armor the RTG for armor nearly as well as a bot or PA's power supply can be armored.

I’m well aware of the nature of RTGs. This is why I like science fiction. You get to do stuff you presently cannot and even think you never will. Imagine telling people centuries past that one day they will be able to press a button and their house will be lit up, no candles needed. Or imagine telling me today one day we can cut modern tanks in half with swords. At some point hard science fiction has to accept the “fiction”. We don’t really know what kind of battery it would take to run an EBA but we all seem to be pretty willing to accept that such a battery exists and never mind the details. So saying that sitting in below freezing weather will suck a battery dry in hours is a complete fiction lacking any real basis other than cold saps batteries. Then came along lithium batteries that have as one from their advantages better cold temperature performance. We don’t really know what kind of super miniaturised nuclear power plant we are putting in our vehicles but we accept them precisely as they are. NASA is making progress in improving RTG efficiency and wattage. Who is to say where we will be three centuries down the road when the bar isn’t set very high to begin with.

[azazel1024]

Well, in game terms, there is at least one book (Mercs? Dinosaur Swamp? RUE?) if not more than one book that actually talks about the fact that EBA HAVE batteries and roughly how long they last. So, this fiction has EBA with batteries.

Cold sapping batteries in this case is simply refering to the fact that the colder it gets, the more power is going to be required to keep up with the increased heat loss. I assume nothing about decreased battery efficiency due to cold, though I can model that too if you want based on a few current battery chemistries.

For RTG efficiencies, there is a hard and fast limit on it. Its based on how much heat the nuclear decay produces. Plutonium being one of the current best sources. Plutonium Oxide (the fuel used in a lot of RTGs), produces sufficient heat that a 100% efficient RTG that produced ~100w of heat could be roughly the size of a large hockey puck. Of course, even in some fantastical dream, its going to need SOME kind of shielding, energy conversion system, protective casing in the event of combat damage, etc, etc. So I think even in some fantastical future fiction with 100% heat to electrical conversion, you are talking something at a minimum, the size of a large fanny pack, which still seems larger than what you'd want/would have on most EBA.

There is also sourcing the radioactive elements too...which considering the very high cost of nuclear power supplies for most vehicles, I assume means nuclear power isn't so incredibly abundant and low cost that the radioisotopes would be a cheaper method of powering most EBA than simply using super advanced batteries. We already know that Eclips are pretty darned advanced, hold something in the neighborhood of 100 car batteries (IIRC), which works out to around 30KWhr, or roughly 6x the energy we are talking needing for EBA. We know roughly how expensive they are and the roughly their size.

Seems like the week of power for an EBA sounds about right in resonable conditions based on a battery that is probably the size of a C-cell battery of today, costs probably around 500 credits (vaguely 1/6th the cost of an Eclip) and would be easy to find. Such a thing wouldn't be a huge imposition on most adventurers or military units to carry a spare or two, or the fact that most times soldiers aren't going to be buttoned up 24/7, so resonably the might get away with a month on a charge with normal use...but use it in extreme climates and you just don't last long.

Back up to the insulation, the current best possible insulation with know materials is R-10 per inch (aerogel) and there aren't much in the way of theoretical materials even that could best that at all. You also have to take in to account that you need something that can both act as an insulator, but also as padding for when the meatbag inside gets slammed around. Also taking in to account that the inner most layer most certainly CANNOT act as an insulator, as the best way to cool the person inside (and transfer heat in to the them when running a heater) is using water jacket, similar to how space suits do it. That's going to require a certain minimum thickness for the water cooling/heating jacket, then padding/insulation/then armor.

No, we have no way to know exactly how thick it is or the fantastic materials they can come up with.

Though...considering Rifts Russian and Canada, we know that there ARE suits of Arctic EBA created specifically to deal with really cold temperatures, so one could easily infer that to mean that regular EBA has some kind of issue with really cold temperatures. QED, if you want to come up with resonable limitations, a lot of them revolve around power supplies that aren't going to last a long time, possible joint issues in really cold temperatures, etc. The point is, arctic conditions is not something most EBA would ever need to face, so why over engineer your armor for conditions it would never face? They aren't designed to handle space operations either (there is specific space suits/armor for that). Oh...sure you CAN surive in space in one, but the air supply is limited, there aren't magnetic boots, no manuever jets or tethers, etc. Just like they aren't designed to normally operate in arctic conditions, but most adventurers, soliders, etc don't live anywhere near arctic conditions. They are most designed to handle the conditions most will face, likely 0C to 40C as a typical and over engineered to the point of being okay around -20C to 50C in a pinch. Beyond that, extra measures are needed (wearing arctic parkas over the armor and/or carrying a bunch of extra batteries. Just getting arctic EBA to begin with or in hotter weather, probably a supplementary AC pack and extended battery or just custom designed EBA meant for super hot weather environments (IE the kind you'd see on other worlds).

[Natasha]

Well, in game terms, there is at least one book (Mercs? Dinosaur Swamp? RUE?) if not more than one book that actually talks about the fact that EBA HAVE batteries and roughly how long they last. So, this fiction has EBA with batteries.

Cold sapping batteries in this case is simply refering to the fact that the colder it gets, the more power is going to be required to keep up with the increased heat loss. I assume nothing about decreased battery efficiency due to cold, though I can model that too if you want based on a few current battery chemistries.

For RTG efficiencies, there is a hard and fast limit on it. Its based on how much heat the nuclear decay produces. Plutonium being one of the current best sources. Plutonium Oxide (the fuel used in a lot of RTGs), produces sufficient heat that a 100% efficient RTG that produced ~100w of heat could be roughly the size of a large hockey puck. Of course, even in some fantastical dream, its going to need SOME kind of shielding, energy conversion system, protective casing in the event of combat damage, etc, etc. So I think even in some fantastical future fiction with 100% heat to electrical conversion, you are talking something at a minimum, the size of a large fanny pack, which still seems larger than what you'd want/would have on most EBA.

There is also sourcing the radioactive elements too...which considering the very high cost of nuclear power supplies for most vehicles, I assume means nuclear power isn't so incredibly abundant and low cost that the radioisotopes would be a cheaper method of powering most EBA than simply using super advanced batteries. We already know that Eclips are pretty darned advanced, hold something in the neighborhood of 100 car batteries (IIRC), which works out to around 30KWhr, or roughly 6x the energy we are talking needing for EBA. We know roughly how expensive they are and the roughly their size.

Seems like the week of power for an EBA sounds about right in resonable conditions based on a battery that is probably the size of a C-cell battery of today, costs probably around 500 credits (vaguely 1/6th the cost of an Eclip) and would be easy to find. Such a thing wouldn't be a huge imposition on most adventurers or military units to carry a spare or two, or the fact that most times soldiers aren't going to be buttoned up 24/7, so resonably the might get away with a month on a charge with normal use...but use it in extreme climates and you just don't last long.

Back up to the insulation, the current best possible insulation with know materials is R-10 per inch (aerogel) and there aren't much in the way of theoretical materials even that could best that at all. You also have to take in to account that you need something that can both act as an insulator, but also as padding for when the meatbag inside gets slammed around. Also taking in to account that the inner most layer most certainly CANNOT act as an insulator, as the best way to cool the person inside (and transfer heat in to the them when running a heater) is using water jacket, similar to how space suits do it. That's going to require a certain minimum thickness for the water cooling/heating jacket, then padding/insulation/then armor.

No, we have no way to know exactly how thick it is or the fantastic materials they can come up with.

Though...considering Rifts Russian and Canada, we know that there ARE suits of Arctic EBA created specifically to deal with really cold temperatures, so one could easily infer that to mean that regular EBA has some kind of issue with really cold temperatures. QED, if you want to come up with resonable limitations, a lot of them revolve around power supplies that aren't going to last a long time, possible joint issues in really cold temperatures, etc. The point is, arctic conditions is not something most EBA would ever need to face, so why over engineer your armor for conditions it would never face? They aren't designed to handle space operations either (there is specific space suits/armor for that). Oh...sure you CAN surive in space in one, but the air supply is limited, there aren't magnetic boots, no manuever jets or tethers, etc. Just like they aren't designed to normally operate in arctic conditions, but most adventurers, soliders, etc don't live anywhere near arctic conditions. They are most designed to handle the conditions most will face, likely 0C to 40C as a typical and over engineered to the point of being okay around -20C to 50C in a pinch. Beyond that, extra measures are needed (wearing arctic parkas over the armor and/or carrying a bunch of extra batteries. Just getting arctic EBA to begin with or in hotter weather, probably a supplementary AC pack and extended battery or just custom designed EBA meant for super hot weather environments (IE the kind you'd see on other worlds).

I am neither in a position to tell you what to assume nor particularly interested in telling you what to assume. This is a game where style and tactical decisions regarding game design reign supreme over science. There is hardly a strategic vision and there is no identifiable design framework. It’s the rule of cool, flying by the seat of one’s pants.

We accept a lot simply because “the Creator said so” and proceed from that with our assumptions about the game. Since the Creator decided that EBAs run on batteries, we assume “super advanced batteries” exist; if we pay attention to the details, those details come out of current knowledge of batteries and assumptions about the future. But since the Creator did not say AlfaBeta Widgets exist, then, we proceed with only our current knowledge of AlfaBeta Widgets and assumptions about the future. The only difference is the Creator chose one and not the other. In other words, we would be talking about “super advanced” AlfaBeta Widgets and be impressed at the progress made in the technology because for today they highly inefficient. Really, everything has limits, the only question is have we bumped into them. Science history is a chronicle of revolutions in understanding. Limit today, gone tomorrow.

And so everything we assume about e-clips comes from stuff the Creator pulled out of the air and wrote down. We proceed from a fiction which becomes axiomatic and move on to scientific conclusions. It is odd that if an e-clip could power an EBA for six weeks that not every single EBA has an e-clip port on it. The batteries are apparently small and no character has to ever worry about them. Is this an indication of their “super advanced” nature or just the author not giving a damn? When style trumps science, I’m inclined to go for the latter.

It is assumed that sitting in very cold temperatures requires more power from the batteries than actual hand to hand combat. Neither of these have any basis other than stuff the creator pulled out of the air and wrote down. And that’s great. But the Creator did say we need just one book to play Rifts. It is not said we are limited to temperate climes. When we pick up a book about a place that is well known for its cold weather and find arctic EBA, the question returns, is that style or science? After all, the Creator has written that we need only one book to play the game. If we pick up another book, does that suddenly become a lie? Well, no, but obviously we have a decision to make. New West cowboys get M.D.C. cowboy coats, I am thankful Russians did not get M.D.C. mekh or M.D.C. ushanki, but the point is that, again, style or science? But one thing is certain, to assert that EBA cannot function in any extreme environment because they cannot function in one extreme environment is, logically, invalid.

None of this is meant to say “you’re wrong” or “I disagree” or any such thing as that (you obviously have a strong scientific background, so it is natural that plays a substantial role in your assumptions, determinations, and conclusions; I am certainly not going to get in the way of that). We have to make sense as best we can and that’s ultimately a personal decision. It’s no secret that one of the things people like about Palladium’s games is the opportunity to make them playable. Still, where style ends and science begins is rather arbitrary in Rifts. When we get right down to it, so is it arbitrary to say that today represents the final disposition of science, that there are no scientific frontiers, no revolutions of understanding between now and Rifts now.

To be more specific, I only brought up RTGs because AlfaBeta Widget is not something a scientific pearl can develop around. In the context of Rifts I’m not thoroughly convinced RTGs are a bad example of what could be, but even if they are a bad example, the point was not RTGs ought to exist. The point was that whatever the Creator says exists in the game world and is beyond our current limits can easily be accepted as “super advanced” without any real basis other than the Creator’s word, the word of a Creator who lives by the rule of cool.

[kaid]

Put the parka under your armour, for same reason you do not put your sleeping bag around your car.

I'd assume EBA is made such that you aren't going to have room for several inches of parka between you and the armor. I'd think at best you are looking at fitting regular BDUs under armor and that is it.

Same reason EBA insulation is only going to cut it on medium-cold weather without a heater. It likely isn't several inches of padding and insulation and then armor over top, its likely something like 1/2-1" of padding/insulation and coolant mesh between you and the armor, which is going to be roughly the equivelent of wearing a light weight parka over your entire body (think about how thick real artic parkas are, we are talking 3-4 inches, at least, of insulation, not an inch).

With an EBA you have a totally enclosed system with the human body itself generating 98.6F temp out constantly. With a hard suit EBA like dead boy armor at worst is going to be like a well insulated car with the heater running even without any powered active heating. Wind should not have to much effect in wicking away heat depending on how the armor is designed. I would assume all armor has some insulation in it as well just for chafing purposes if nothing else. So even unpowered I would expect buttoned down EBA armor to be at least as good as full arctic wear protection. The big problem in -20 or so temps is exposed skin a normal parka and snowpants will keep your body and legs warm enough for a pretty long time. With buttoned down EBA there is ZERO wind exposure and nothing to blow away your layer of insulated 98.6 air. Think a diving dry suit for protection capability. You would have to get into some pretty serious arctic air for a very long period of time before it would become to much of an issue.

[Natasha]

Put the parka under your armour, for same reason you do not put your sleeping bag around your car.

I'd assume EBA is made such that you aren't going to have room for several inches of parka between you and the armor. I'd think at best you are looking at fitting regular BDUs under armor and that is it.

Same reason EBA insulation is only going to cut it on medium-cold weather without a heater. It likely isn't several inches of padding and insulation and then armor over top, its likely something like 1/2-1" of padding/insulation and coolant mesh between you and the armor, which is going to be roughly the equivelent of wearing a light weight parka over your entire body (think about how thick real artic parkas are, we are talking 3-4 inches, at least, of insulation, not an inch).

With an EBA you have a totally enclosed system with the human body itself generating 98.6F temp out constantly. With a hard suit EBA like dead boy armor at worst is going to be like a well insulated car with the heater running even without any powered active heating. Wind should not have to much effect in wicking away heat depending on how the armor is designed. I would assume all armor has some insulation in it as well just for chafing purposes if nothing else. So even unpowered I would expect buttoned down EBA armor to be at least as good as full arctic wear protection. The big problem in -20 or so temps is exposed skin a normal parka and snowpants will keep your body and legs warm enough for a pretty long time. With buttoned down EBA there is ZERO wind exposure and nothing to blow away your layer of insulated 98.6 air. Think a diving dry suit for protection capability. You would have to get into some pretty serious arctic air for a very long period of time before it would become to much of an issue.

That is kind of how I always saw EBAs.

It reminds me of something that I saw recently; t have some material (metal, I think) where on one side of the material can be melt your face off hot and on the side it perfectly comfortable and room temperature to the touch. I think they use it in radio telescopes for something, but for the life of me I cannot remember where I saw it.

[guardiandashi]

I believe most EBA is pretty insulated, actually, unless the ultimate edition says otherwise... this is what it said about coalition EBA
pg193
complete environmental suitable for all conditions including space
computer controlled life support
internal cooling and temp control
artificial air circulation, gas filtration, humidifier
computer controlled blah blah 5hr oxygen supply
insulated, high temperature resistant shielding for up to 300 degrees centigrade, Normal fires do NO damage. Plasma, Nuclear, and magic fires do full damage
radiation shielded

then on pg 209 it basically repeats under the features of ALL EBA
but notes that they are resistant to a minimum of 200 degrees centigrade, and have at least minimal radiation shielding

so all full environmental MDC can shrug off and protect the wearer from "normal fires" and would provide at least fair to good protection from cold

[flatline]

I believe most EBA is pretty insulated, actually, unless the ultimate edition says otherwise... this is what it said about coalition EBA
pg193
complete environmental suitable for all conditions including space
computer controlled life support
internal cooling and temp control
artificial air circulation, gas filtration, humidifier
computer controlled blah blah 5hr oxygen supply
insulated, high temperature resistant shielding for up to 300 degrees centigrade, Normal fires do NO damage. Plasma, Nuclear, and magic fires do full damage
radiation shielded

then on pg 209 it basically repeats under the features of ALL EBA
but notes that they are resistant to a minimum of 200 degrees centigrade, and have at least minimal radiation shielding

so all full environmental MDC can shrug off and protect the wearer from "normal fires" and would provide at least fair to good protection from cold

"normal fires" are way hotter than 300C. The armor might not take any damage from it, but the guy inside the armor will be cooked.

--flatline

[Glistam]

Rifts: Canada, page 25, uses 0 degrees F (-18 degrees C) as the cutoff for normal environmental body armor and power armor. At that temperature and lower, the environmental systems will only work for 9 hours per 10 M.D.C. of the armor. If submerged in freezing water the environmental system will only last 1/3 of that time.

[Natasha]

hours per M.D.C.
Anyways, thanks for the reference.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not a fan of using the MDC value either, but if it helps you could view it as the tougher/thicker armor having an insulating effect that boosts the viability of the climate control in the armor.

one thing i'm planning to do in rifts scandinavia is to have the cold weather rules included in a simpler to find and read form. the ones in rifts canada are mixed in with the rules for traversing canada's landscapes.. i'm going to dig out the cold climate rules and compare them to the cold weather rules from robotech's new generation sourcebook (which is a more recent set.). where the two conflict i'll go with the one that is easier to use or which makes more sense. i may add a few extra bits if i need to to cover situations likely to occur with the gear/setting of scandinavia.

[Glistam]

Cold weather rules in the New Generation Robotech sourcebook? I'll give those a look once I get my book back.

In other news, in Rifts: Russia there is a generic vehicle simply called "Heavy M.D.C. Snowmobile." In its description are some notes on when it freezes up and has other issues due to cold. These rules seem like they could apply to all vehicles, not just the snowmobile, since there is no indication that the snowmobile is specifically designed for cold weather.

• At -30°F (-34°C) or colder, the vehicle will perform "sluggishly" (-30% to speed, -10% to skill performance). There is an 01-80% chance of the locks and ignition freezing.

• At -50°F (-46°C) or colder, the engine will freeze up five minutes after it's turned off. Even if kept running, there is a 01-50% chance every 15 minutes that it will stall and shut down. If shut down/frozen due to cold, it will be impossible to restart unless the vehicle is warmed up to at least freezing (32°F/0°C).

• Traveling faster than 40mph over loose/fresh snow on the slopes of a hill/mountain has a 01-60% chance of causing an avalanche or similar snow and ice slides.

[azazel1024]

Put the parka under your armour, for same reason you do not put your sleeping bag around your car.

I'd assume EBA is made such that you aren't going to have room for several inches of parka between you and the armor. I'd think at best you are looking at fitting regular BDUs under armor and that is it.

Same reason EBA insulation is only going to cut it on medium-cold weather without a heater. It likely isn't several inches of padding and insulation and then armor over top, its likely something like 1/2-1" of padding/insulation and coolant mesh between you and the armor, which is going to be roughly the equivelent of wearing a light weight parka over your entire body (think about how thick real artic parkas are, we are talking 3-4 inches, at least, of insulation, not an inch).

With an EBA you have a totally enclosed system with the human body itself generating 98.6F temp out constantly. With a hard suit EBA like dead boy armor at worst is going to be like a well insulated car with the heater running even without any powered active heating. Wind should not have to much effect in wicking away heat depending on how the armor is designed. I would assume all armor has some insulation in it as well just for chafing purposes if nothing else. So even unpowered I would expect buttoned down EBA armor to be at least as good as full arctic wear protection. The big problem in -20 or so temps is exposed skin a normal parka and snowpants will keep your body and legs warm enough for a pretty long time. With buttoned down EBA there is ZERO wind exposure and nothing to blow away your layer of insulated 98.6 air. Think a diving dry suit for protection capability. You would have to get into some pretty serious arctic air for a very long period of time before it would become to much of an issue.

Not true, wind increases the convective rate of loss of heat. Period.

Wear head to toe windbreaker. Its still warmer with zero wind than with a 20mph wind wiping over you.

EBA still isn't super bulky if you look at most of the art in the book combined with descriptions, stats, etc. A good parka for arctic conditions is going to be SEVERAL inches thick. It isn't going to be some, maybe 1inch thick bit of armor with a little padding/insulation between you and the elements.

A dry suit still has a limited amount of insulative value, and you generally aren't diving in arctic temperature water, you are diving in water probably 30-50F and often not for a super long period of time (and hour or two). Most extended dives, for things like oil rig repair, they are pumping heated air in to your suit.

Yes, you'll be plenty toasty in EBA in appaling conditions as bad as any you could conceive of on Earth, but it WILL burn through the battery faster, much faster, and then you'll be up a creek once they run dry and it starts getting really cold in your suit. It doesn't mean you'll freeze in a second, or an hour. It does mean you'll start getting cold and at some point you'll likely die from exposure given a few hours with no battery to heat your armor and it being -50C outside.

Most people in arctic survival, wearing those several inch thick parks, probably a balaclava, googles, etc as well, aren't tromping around for days on end exposed. They are probably hanging around doing what they need to and then getting in shelter, where it is warmer, there is no wind, etc. If trapsing about, as it were, they are at least likely to be doing things like constructing snow caves to sleep over in, or at least tents and arctic sleeping bags at night, etc.

All of this likely wearing better insulated gear than what REGULAR EBA is.

A regular adventurer or soldier in regular EBA, just stepping out to do a little work in the cold would be just fine for a few hours. Nice and toasty in fact. However, if they are, say, walking hundreds of miles through the arctic tundra with no extra cold weather gear, no tent, no sleeping bag, etc, they are going to freeze to death in a day, or two at most.

The books make a point of showing this. I didn't notice that passage in Canada, but 0F is a pretty sensible temperature cut off. 9hrs per 10MDC seems a little much though. I'd personally cut it down to 15 minutes per MDC and figure after that the battery is dead and you have 1 minute per MDC before exposure is a problem. Of course you could run around with no working battery in your EBA and be fine too, so long as you were getting somewhere warm, bundling up, etc within that time period.

[Natasha]

Meh, a little bit of heat will go a long way; how much power does the equivalent of a small heating blanket really need. I imagine preventing heat exhaustion from a few rounds of hand to hand combat takes way more energy than standing still in frigid weather.

[azazel1024]

50-100w for a heating blanket.

Its not an issue of the power output for a short period of time, its the issue of it over a LONG period of time. As I pointed out, if the armor uses 5w for sensors and com gear and 25w for heating, which probably would be what it would need in 0F weather, then you are talking around 5KWh for a week of power. That is a LOT of energy. In terms of lead acid batteries, that is about 500lbs of lead acid batteries or 50lbs of lithium ion. Using super advanced technology, maybe a quarter or half pound battery? This is roughly 1/10th the capacity of an eclip (as stated by a couple of sources from the BOOKS), which also places it roughly in a resonable place, at least price wise at maybe 500cr for an armor battery.

That's a week of power, at moderate temperatures. Drop it arctic and it'll burn through the battery 2-5x as fast depending on just how cold.

For your example, with preventing heat exhaustion, yes, more energy to dissipate that heat than just standing around in super cold temperatures. However, you also generally don't have extreme exertion for DAYS on end, where as you are in super cold conditions, for days on end. It also depends on how it is extracting the heat. 60F day, simple water circulation and convective cooling is probably enough, even buttoned up. 120F day, sure, it'll need active heat pumping to do the job, but is you are also running around buttoned up in 120F weather, the batteries probably aren't going to last more than a couple of days.

Unless you aren't, in which case, it doesn't matter too much how fast or slow the battery wears out. If it gives you 12hrs of power, and you are only planning on running around in the cold for a few hours, you are golden.

Environmentally, 0F to 100F probably covers most of North America south of Canada, and even with Canada, most of Canada a lot of the year.

So what is the worst you are looking at? Cold weather parka pulled over your EBA? MY GODS, NO! That'd probably be good in arctic conditions for days on end. Or get some arctic armor like suggested in Rifts Canada and Russia.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thing is, parka's, coats and the like 'work' by retaining the heat you radiate.

If you're in EBA, the heat you radiate is on the inside of the armor. It doesn't transition straight through the armor. It likely comes out at joints and seals but still it's muffled. Environmental means it's a sealed system. So putting a coat on over the armor isn't going to do much other than make you look like the stay pufft man and make you waddle around. The armor isn't radiating heat to be 'caught' by the coat. At least not in ways that putting a coat on over it would keep you warm(er). If the armor transitioned heat and such, as minor as the 98 degrees of body heat you produce, what happens when you're hit with a plasma blast? Pressure cooked human that's suddenly flash fried to many1000s of degrees inside the armor?

Yes layering is a thing, and it works, but it works on the concept of holding the heat that you're radiating in.

The tech that is had to make MDC materials and MD weapons is very advanced. They have nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks in millions of suits of PA. It's a pretty safe bet that their normal batteries are many generations better than the ones we have. Probably rechargeable too.

Now, I've never had a GM so anal retentive that he's logging down minutes spent in the snow vs battery consumption on environmental body armor. Theory crafting is all well as a thought exercise but how many people are getting this deep into logistics? Battery consumption on your armor vs heating elements? When's that get fun?

[Natasha]

Neither do you have to run a heating system for days on end. With decent insulation and a little bit of heat you will not have to run it constantly (you know, super advanced technology). If you work all day you might only need it when you’re sleeping and even that could be regulated with computers for maximum efficiency and minimum usage. Essentially I think that everything averages or cancels out the cold temperatures to the point that you really do not have to worry about it. But even if we do, batteries are apparently a dime a dozen anyway, so there’s apparently no point to the problem in the first place. Arctic armour becomes a matter of style.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And if you can't do it with style.... Don't bother doing it!

[Natasha]

There is no correct answer is the point. Well that and the fact that style is a matter of taste. If you don't have Canada or Russia book, can you still adventure in the far north? Of course you can.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

All of this likely wearing better insulated gear than what REGULAR EBA is.

A regular adventurer or soldier in regular EBA, just stepping out to do a little work in the cold would be just fine for a few hours. Nice and toasty in fact. However, if they are, say, walking hundreds of miles through the arctic tundra with no extra cold weather gear, no tent, no sleeping bag, etc, they are going to freeze to death in a day, or two at most.

Not sure im buying.

EBA is listed as (standard feature) being rated for space; space is 2.725 K; which works out to -270.425 C or -454.765 F

If the armor has enough heat retention to be space rated, then -30C in Canada isn't going to be a sweat. The guys who wrote up "Arctic Armor" simply didn't stop to think about the ramifications of the stats already given for EBA... just like any of dozens of other times when someone wrote a book for Palladium that didnt take into account what came before.

[azazel1024]

All of this likely wearing better insulated gear than what REGULAR EBA is.

A regular adventurer or soldier in regular EBA, just stepping out to do a little work in the cold would be just fine for a few hours. Nice and toasty in fact. However, if they are, say, walking hundreds of miles through the arctic tundra with no extra cold weather gear, no tent, no sleeping bag, etc, they are going to freeze to death in a day, or two at most.

Not sure im buying.

EBA is listed as (standard feature) being rated for space; space is 2.725 K; which works out to -270.425 C or -454.765 F

If the armor has enough heat retention to be space rated, then -30C in Canada isn't going to be a sweat. The guys who wrote up "Arctic Armor" simply didn't stop to think about the ramifications of the stats already given for EBA... just like any of dozens of other times when someone wrote a book for Palladium that didnt take into account what came before.

Here is the thing guys.

A) Space isn't all that cold. Yeah, near absolute zero, but there is NO CONDUCTION OR CONVECTION going on. This strips heat away several times faster than radiation does. Its much easier to stay warm in space than it is on Earth in the Arctic. MUCH easier.

B) The books specifically mention that there is cold weather armor and that regular armor is really only good to 0F, both in Rifts Canada and in Rifts Russia. You can ignore that if you want, but it IS in the books. My attempt is a resonable way to go about putting a "face" to that limitation.

C) No...ummm, it wouldn't simply be radiated/convected away through joints. Now, they might have lower insulation values than the hard armor pieces of the armor, but you'd radiate it away through those too. Parkas and such would still insulate joints, even if that is the only place you'd lose heat through. You are GOING to lose heat. The books say so, real life says so. One of the few times Rifts and real life actually agree on anything.

D) Getting hit with a plasma blast and suriving in arctic conditions are two different things. A space capsule can survive re-entry though many thousands of degrees of aerobraking, but it can't just sit in 200F temperature for a prolonged period of time. Same princple with EBA. When you get hit with something super hot, the armor ablates, stripping the heat with it. Its designed to vaporize small bits of the armor, so that the heat doesn't transfer through. Ablation and insulation are two completely different things and principles. One does not negate the other. You very much can have armor that you start roasting in it in 130F weather after a day or so, or feeze after a day in -40F weather, but still easily survive a plasma blast.

[guardiandashi]

All of this likely wearing better insulated gear than what REGULAR EBA is.

A regular adventurer or soldier in regular EBA, just stepping out to do a little work in the cold would be just fine for a few hours. Nice and toasty in fact. However, if they are, say, walking hundreds of miles through the arctic tundra with no extra cold weather gear, no tent, no sleeping bag, etc, they are going to freeze to death in a day, or two at most.

Not sure im buying.

EBA is listed as (standard feature) being rated for space; space is 2.725 K; which works out to -270.425 C or -454.765 F

If the armor has enough heat retention to be space rated, then -30C in Canada isn't going to be a sweat. The guys who wrote up "Arctic Armor" simply didn't stop to think about the ramifications of the stats already given for EBA... just like any of dozens of other times when someone wrote a book for Palladium that didnt take into account what came before.

Here is the thing guys.

A) Space isn't all that cold. Yeah, near absolute zero, but there is NO CONDUCTION OR CONVECTION going on. This strips heat away several times faster than radiation does. Its much easier to stay warm in space than it is on Earth in the Arctic. MUCH easier.

B) The books specifically mention that there is cold weather armor and that regular armor is really only good to 0F, both in Rifts Canada and in Rifts Russia. You can ignore that if you want, but it IS in the books. My attempt is a resonable way to go about putting a "face" to that limitation.

C) No...ummm, it wouldn't simply be radiated/convected away through joints. Now, they might have lower insulation values than the hard armor pieces of the armor, but you'd radiate it away through those too. Parkas and such would still insulate joints, even if that is the only place you'd lose heat through. You are GOING to lose heat. The books say so, real life says so. One of the few times Rifts and real life actually agree on anything.

D) Getting hit with a plasma blast and suriving in arctic conditions are two different things. A space capsule can survive re-entry though many thousands of degrees of aerobraking, but it can't just sit in 200F temperature for a prolonged period of time. Same princple with EBA. When you get hit with something super hot, the armor ablates, stripping the heat with it. Its designed to vaporize small bits of the armor, so that the heat doesn't transfer through. Ablation and insulation are two completely different things and principles. One does not negate the other. You very much can have armor that you start roasting in it in 130F weather after a day or so, or feeze after a day in -40F weather, but still easily survive a plasma blast.

surviving a plasma blast, the "normal" fire temp ~200-300 degrees f (this may be near but not IN fire) the armor can withstand all day long, so full environmental armor would actually be a great basic protection for firefighters, it would be good to add additional upgrades to get the armor to be able to withstand more (specialized stuff) but whatever

for space armor due to the fact that you only radiate heat, you might be effectively a 20watt heater in space (less than that but shrug)
on the ground in cold weather you are still dissipating that 20w of radiation, but now you can dissipate 50w due to conduction, and with a wind you get convection going on also say another 50w worth of heat... that would add up to ~120 w worth of heat loss vs 20w worth of heat loss in space.

and yes wearing a parka or similar over EBA will dramatically help as it will reduce or eliminate most of the conduction and convection losses if you wore a windbreaker and eliminated the 50w of convection related heat loss that would put your losses from ~120w (in my example) to ~70w or so which would help a lot

[ShadowLogan]

All of this likely wearing better insulated gear than what REGULAR EBA is.

A regular adventurer or soldier in regular EBA, just stepping out to do a little work in the cold would be just fine for a few hours. Nice and toasty in fact. However, if they are, say, walking hundreds of miles through the arctic tundra with no extra cold weather gear, no tent, no sleeping bag, etc, they are going to freeze to death in a day, or two at most.

Not sure im buying.

EBA is listed as (standard feature) being rated for space; space is 2.725 K; which works out to -270.425 C or -454.765 F

If the armor has enough heat retention to be space rated, then -30C in Canada isn't going to be a sweat. The guys who wrote up "Arctic Armor" simply didn't stop to think about the ramifications of the stats already given for EBA... just like any of dozens of other times when someone wrote a book for Palladium that didnt take into account what came before.

The real question you need to ask yourself is what aspects of the hostile environment is the suit actually rated for by the statement. Rifts Underseas puts depth limits on EBA (and regular 'borgs and PA which is much less than deep-sea models). So the suit may be rated for hostile environments, but there are limitations to what it can endure.

Plus your statement isn't exactly accurate, while Space itself might be that cold, you are going to absorb infrared/heat from exposure to sunlight which is more likely to cook the person inside EBA suit given enough time if they can't properly dissipate the heat. Spacecraft (and suits) have heat management systems to radiate the heat properly.

[flatline]

All of this likely wearing better insulated gear than what REGULAR EBA is.

A regular adventurer or soldier in regular EBA, just stepping out to do a little work in the cold would be just fine for a few hours. Nice and toasty in fact. However, if they are, say, walking hundreds of miles through the arctic tundra with no extra cold weather gear, no tent, no sleeping bag, etc, they are going to freeze to death in a day, or two at most.

Not sure im buying.

EBA is listed as (standard feature) being rated for space; space is 2.725 K; which works out to -270.425 C or -454.765 F

If the armor has enough heat retention to be space rated, then -30C in Canada isn't going to be a sweat. The guys who wrote up "Arctic Armor" simply didn't stop to think about the ramifications of the stats already given for EBA... just like any of dozens of other times when someone wrote a book for Palladium that didnt take into account what came before.

The real question you need to ask yourself is what aspects of the hostile environment is the suit actually rated for by the statement. Rifts Underseas puts depth limits on EBA (and regular 'borgs and PA which is much less than deep-sea models). So the suit may be rated for hostile environments, but there are limitations to what it can endure.

Plus your statement isn't exactly accurate, while Space itself might be that cold, you are going to absorb infrared/heat from exposure to sunlight which is more likely to cook the person inside EBA suit given enough time if they can't properly dissipate the heat. Spacecraft (and suits) have heat management systems to radiate the heat properly.

As I recall, the Apollo space suit had to remove 500+ watts of heat to prevent the astronaut from cooking inside the suit (mostly from his own body heat).

--flatline

[Natasha]

B) The books specifically mention that there is cold weather armor and that regular armor is really only good to 0F, both in Rifts Canada and in Rifts Russia. You can ignore that if you want, but it IS in the books. My attempt is a resonable way to go about putting a "face" to that limitation.

As I already said, it is not unreasonable but it proceeds from things which themselves are made reasonable only because someone wrote them down that way.

There is nothing unreasonable about “ignoring” the other books. Perhaps you don’t have them. Perhaps you take seriously RUE’s specific permission to ignore the other books. Perhaps you accept that science doesn’t much matter in Rifts—even when the same things are said in the books as in real life, you can’t be sure: real life says you can jump and Rifts says you can jump; you can jump, but Rifts allows you to make impossible jumps.

How many rule books did we have to wait to learn that regular EBA does not work in Canada?

Do what you want, of course, but one face isn’t any more reasonable than another when it is all entirely and completely made up.

[azazel1024]

B) The books specifically mention that there is cold weather armor and that regular armor is really only good to 0F, both in Rifts Canada and in Rifts Russia. You can ignore that if you want, but it IS in the books. My attempt is a resonable way to go about putting a "face" to that limitation.

As I already said, it is not unreasonable but it proceeds from things which themselves are made reasonable only because someone wrote them down that way.

There is nothing unreasonable about “ignoring” the other books. Perhaps you don’t have them. Perhaps you take seriously RUE’s specific permission to ignore the other books. Perhaps you accept that science doesn’t much matter in Rifts—even when the same things are said in the books as in real life, you can’t be sure: real life says you can jump and Rifts says you can jump; you can jump, but Rifts allows you to make impossible jumps.

How many rule books did we have to wait to learn that regular EBA does not work in Canada?

Do what you want, of course, but one face isn’t any more reasonable than another when it is all entirely and completely made up.

Well, sure. My point is just it isn't unresonable to think that you can only go so cold in EBA and that there is some limits to how long they can be powered. Those both seem resonable and in this case, a couple of the books back that up. Since we are talking RPG/Fantasy/Sci Fi (emphasis on the fiction part), it isn't unresonable to ignore all of that. I am simply pointing out what is probably resonable, based on the fact that the books say there are limits, some of the few times the books and real life actually seem to come to some kind of modest agreement on anything.

For the Apollo space suits, I don't think it was nearly 500w of heat, but it was a lot (at least in the 100-200w range). They actually were limited in endurance by their water supply, and not by air supply. They used evaporative cooling for the suits, using small amounts from the pack's water supply to vaporize water through the coolant system to cool off the water recirculating through the suit.

Current space suits are tethered so that they can use the mother ship/station's cooling system to keep the suits cool. Heat is much more of an issue in space than cooling.

1,300w per m^2 with the average space suit around 2m^2, which would work out to about 2.5kw of heat, but only half of you (roughly) is facing the sun and also the suits incorporate both lots of insulation as well as relatively low E surfaces (not metalized fabrics level of low E, but lower than an E of 1), so they don't absorb radiation as much (nor radiate it away as much). Plus, even if you are "cooking" with all that heat on your facing, the non-solar irradiate side of you is also radiating off heat in to the emptiness of space at a pretty good rate too, which helps reduce the total recieved insolation to a tolerable degree.

Heating the suits in shadow isn't that big of a deal as the large amount of insulation (a couple of inches over most of your body), plus you generally aren't in shadow for all that long. Operating at night on the Moon would actually be easier with longer endurance than operating in the sun on the moon. You don't need active cooling and you probably don't even need a heater to keep up with the heat loss.

This is speaking solely to Apollo space suits and real life space suits.