Thoughts on Brodkil and damage output

[Noon]

So apparently you miss the third option, that the prices given are in fact factoring in price reductions due to mass production, since you can turn out a lot of something and still have it be pretty pricey (just look at cars).

I already went through the 'third option' with Nekira - you going on about mass production is utterly pointless if it does not counter my main point - the price of the gun is too high!

Please no more mass production posts that lead to absolutely nothing new...

Uh no, the BOOKS make it quite clear that there are places where you can practically trip over laser rifles (look at the tables for the war on Tolkeen, there are options to run across entire gun caches completely unguarded). Of which none of that is going to have any particular bearing on the costs of things like laser rifles just like in RL people finding caches of guns or other items don't affect the market price of those items.

Could you give an example of the size of the cache found/number of guns found in RL that your refering to? If it's like ten or so, I'm not going to consider it much of an example of not affecting the market.

Guns are plentiful RL and yet the prices still remain fairly constant and at a not very cheap level.

You could probably buy a gun for the same price as a couch.

If you think a couch in rifts costs as much as a laser rifle, okay, you begin to make a point (atleast for your idea of rifts couches)

Otherwise its a false comparison.

So even if every Brodkil is carrying a laser rifle and every laser rifle is recovered intact by a PC group it's going to have zero impact on the price of laser rifles on the open market.

You were talking about tolkien battlefields filled with gats before, not what the PC's do.

Really, you're obsessing on the price at which Laser Rifles are sold

More to the point I don't obsess on the things you obsess on. That is, if you thought it fine to bring up obsession, it must be fine to mention you obsess as well, right?

and in spite of the evidence against it insisting that it must mean that the weapons are rare

Okay, I think here is the big problem - you keep reading 'rare' into my argument and so do others.

I do not care whether its rare.

I care about
A. Book price
B. That dudes with laser rifles will use the damn things to stop others from taking them - ten dudes with a 3D6 MD laser rifle is kind like 3D6x10 MD! Almost like a boom gun! No, I don't imagine it's that easy for brodkil to steal these - if the brodkil can come en masse, why can't (especially given how much you rant the guns aren't rare) can't the gun owners be en masse as well? 6D6x10 MD!! Trying the 'oh, the brodkil the PC's always run into were the lucky ones who found just a few dudes and outnumbered them' runs into my sense of contrivance.

or that somehow used items being resold would have massive economic impact which again is not a given nor supported by the book material.

If the text says the people are dying of thirst and gives no hint of them drinking the water, they have to die of thirst. That's the argument, is it?

I know you minimised it down to just the PC's doing it at this point in your argument, so as to make the only resell effect you're talking about a minute one. If it were just the PC's reselling or gathering weapons, I would grant your point.

If you find the NPC you're using against the PC weak then given them the gear commonly expected of them, mages are going to be carrying around mainly magical items and Brodkil are going to be carrying around mainly technological items.
No, they are going to be carrying around what they could get - not necessarily what they want.

I think you and Nekira play in a way where NPC's have all the things they want. Okay. I just don't want to play that way. Call that a dreadful stubborn thing if you want.

If your motivation is to always keep the PC broke by ensuring they never have anything they can resell like keeping Brodkil basically naked in spite of them being a tech-using/favoring race well then there really isn't any room for a reasonable discussion since you're always going to find excuses for why 'oh no that's just too rare/impossible for them to have' even when they should have relatively easy access to it

I know this is your pet peeve. Unless you state how much money you'd want per session or combat or whatever, this sort of complaint is just annoying. It's you as a player, not your PC, who thinks you're owed something in real life as to what you can fill out in your credits section on your character sheet - okay, tell us exactly how much?

I started a campaign with the goal of 5th level - got there and then wanted to continue, so the next goal is 9th and one of them is very close. My players know what they want and told me - they wanted to continue.

If I were less confident though, I think it would be a not nice way to treat an unconfident GM by going on about game money as if something bad is happening, but never saying how much you actually want.

(after all you expect the people robbing other people to be better armed than those who aren't going around robbing people).

I'm not sure what this means? Yes, I do - you expect the robbers to be less well armed and armoured than those they rob? Is this a side effect of any number of RPG's and CRPG's where when you fight bandits in the woods your PC glows with magic crap while the robber has like a club or some crud?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also, you still havn't answered any of the questions i've raised.

By your measure I haven't, okay.

As i'm the one you are hypothetically trying to give answers to, if you are giving me answers I don't understand, prehaps rephrasing them will help

I just think Brodkil are dispreportionatly likely to get a hold of them.

No, I think your solution to my problem was that the Brodkil would have laser rifles.

That's not disproportionately likely.

That's 100%.[/quote]

Only the brodkil that show up in the game matter. if the ones that show up have laser guns (or rail guns, plasma, whatever), the damage output problem will be solved neatly. You say you don't want to drop loot freely--I don't understand why. You've made it clear you don't like the preposed solution (you don't want to drop lots of loot, you think laser guns are very hard to make).

I simply asked two questions: why do you want them hard to make, and why are firebolt talismens easier, sinse a natural reading of the rifts books indicates the opposite to me. your statements have made abundantly clear you don't like my suggestion, but without knowing WHY you dislike it, It's hard to come up with reasonable alternate suggestions. which i'm willing to do if I actually understand why you dislike the laser gun answer so intensly.

[Noon]

No, out of all the Brodkil if the one's most likely to have energy weapons happens to be those attacking the PC

I don't run games where such 'happens' conveniently occur just to the PC's. I find it contrived. No, I do not snap or bark at anyone else who wants to play that way. But I don't want to.

The Brodkil they are running into at the moment are from clans drawn toward psuedo-service to an undead god that's arising. I note this now because folks original arguments seemed entirely 'the text says they love tech, so tech they have', which ignored context.

That is not a trivial bit there. The original post was about the 'low damage of Brodkil' which implies generic Brodkil, it also provided no explanation for them to chose a rare powerful weapon over the races normal inclination. Now if they are specific monsters, that serve a specific master, and that master is a GOD? Then yes, it suddenly makes perfect sense. Now they are being armed by some one, instead of just having 'random gear' (which make the whole who is paying for these toys moot). It gives a reason for them to have magic (a god did it).

No, that's too simple an understanding.

They are partly working for the god because (apart from pay and fear) of cheap power being handed to them. They are driven to this role by economics, not that a god did it.

And as I said before, mage guilds would pump out these things for the same reasons - to gain enforcers basically for free.

And sure it's a trivial bit because everyone treats it that way - everyone focuses on the fluff text 'dey luvs da bionics!' and does not question whether that fluff text actually makes any sense in the setting. Well, Rappanui saw some of the text conflicting with itself, so not everyone.

[Noon]

Only the brodkil that show up in the game matter.

No.

Caveat: For your game, fine. For mine, no.

You say you don't want to drop loot freely--I don't understand why. You've made it clear you don't like the preposed solution (you don't want to drop lots of loot, you think laser guns are very hard to make).

No, as I said to nightmask in A and B above. A: They cost too much to be bought and B: the guys who have them will use them to keep them, in large groups (especially if they have alot of gats!). Rarity does not matter, unless you change book price - which you avoid. Yeah, I looked at that post and realised that unless it gets to a twitter size, it wasn't going to be read. And A and B were ignored.

why are firebolt talismens easier, sinse a natural reading of the rifts books indicates the opposite to me.

I've no idea why you think any spell would be easier or harder to put in one (outside of PPE cost)? I can't answer a question when I don't know why you came to a conclusion. Why did you come to that conclusion?

your statements have made abundantly clear you don't like my suggestion, but without knowing WHY you dislike it, It's hard to come up with reasonable alternate suggestions. which i'm willing to do if I actually understand why you dislike the laser gun answer so intensly.

Perhaps you should ask me about what I like rather than assume what I dislike?

I tend to think economic distribution is pivotal in conflict. I like engaging in who will turn to whom because they are poor (or feel they are poor). I like thinking on how Brodkil aren't exactly self disciplined, so they are not going to have a savings plan and instead **** away their takings mostly, and thus can't afford much (maybe I'm wrong and brodkil are as disciplined as young 40k orcs are)

Then I like thinking about how various factions might woo them with cheap power. And I like thinking about how the various tech dispensers keep their prices damn high and actually hire some dudes to guard with those guns where they sell them from. And I like thinking that any force that can afford laser rifles would already be in a group and so they'd be armed with multiple laser rifles, making them no easy pickings.

I enjoy the cold war-ish quality of the petty grasping for power.

Plus it makes sense to me. It's, as I understand it, pretty much what's happening in less lucky parts of the world right now (people running around with rifles that are older than they are and bullets are cheaper than food, etc). Just sans the demonic part. Mostly. So I like the real world paralel instead of just going to heavy metal album stereotypes of brodkil having teh bionics cus' they just do because metal.

Less metal is more metal to me.

[eliakon]

Only the brodkil that show up in the game matter.

No.

Caveat: For your game, fine. For mine, no.

You say you don't want to drop loot freely--I don't understand why. You've made it clear you don't like the preposed solution (you don't want to drop lots of loot, you think laser guns are very hard to make).

No, as I said to nightmask in A and B above. A: They cost too much to be bought and B: the guys who have them will use them to keep them, in large groups (especially if they have alot of gats!). Rarity does not matter, unless you change book price - which you avoid. Yeah, I looked at that post and realised that unless it gets to a twitter size, it wasn't going to be read. And A and B were ignored.

why are firebolt talismens easier, sinse a natural reading of the rifts books indicates the opposite to me.

I've no idea why you think any spell would be easier or harder to put in one (outside of PPE cost)? I can't answer a question when I don't know why you came to a conclusion. Why did you come to that conclusion?

your statements have made abundantly clear you don't like my suggestion, but without knowing WHY you dislike it, It's hard to come up with reasonable alternate suggestions. which i'm willing to do if I actually understand why you dislike the laser gun answer so intensly.

Perhaps you should ask me about what I like rather than assume what I dislike?

I tend to think economic distribution is pivotal in conflict. I like engaging in who will turn to whom because they are poor (or feel they are poor). I like thinking on how Brodkil aren't exactly self disciplined, so they are not going to have a savings plan and instead **** away their takings mostly, and thus can't afford much (maybe I'm wrong and brodkil are as disciplined as young 40k orcs are)

Then I like thinking about how various factions might woo them with cheap power. And I like thinking about how the various tech dispensers keep their prices damn high and actually hire some dudes to guard with those guns where they sell them from. And I like thinking that any force that can afford laser rifles would already be in a group and so they'd be armed with multiple laser rifles, making them no easy pickings.

I enjoy the cold war-ish quality of the petty grasping for power.

Plus it makes sense to me. It's, as I understand it, pretty much what's happening in less lucky parts of the world right now (people running around with rifles that are older than they are and bullets are cheaper than food, etc). Just sans the demonic part. Mostly. So I like the real world paralel instead of just going to heavy metal album stereotypes of brodkil having teh bionics cus' they just do because metal.

Less metal is more metal to me.

So what was the point of the OP then in the first place? If you don't want to here how others would use the general description in the books to boost damage, if you already have the One True Solution, and if you already know that you don't want to go with how the books suggest things, but instead alter things to suit your specific game.....what is the point of asking? None of us is in your game, none of us know all the assumptions that go into your game. What we all have though is the same basic books, so when we are asked questions we provide what we can from those books, and then try to make some logical extrapolations from what is written in the books.

[Nightmask]

No, out of all the Brodkil if the one's most likely to have energy weapons happens to be those attacking the PC

I don't run games where such 'happens' conveniently occur just to the PC's. I find it contrived. No, I do not snap or bark at anyone else who wants to play that way. But I don't want to.

The Brodkil they are running into at the moment are from clans drawn toward psuedo-service to an undead god that's arising. I note this now because folks original arguments seemed entirely 'the text says they love tech, so tech they have', which ignored context.

That is not a trivial bit there. The original post was about the 'low damage of Brodkil' which implies generic Brodkil, it also provided no explanation for them to chose a rare powerful weapon over the races normal inclination. Now if they are specific monsters, that serve a specific master, and that master is a GOD? Then yes, it suddenly makes perfect sense. Now they are being armed by some one, instead of just having 'random gear' (which make the whole who is paying for these toys moot). It gives a reason for them to have magic (a god did it).

No, that's too simple an understanding.

They are partly working for the god because (apart from pay and fear) of cheap power being handed to them. They are driven to this role by economics, not that a god did it.

And as I said before, mage guilds would pump out these things for the same reasons - to gain enforcers basically for free.

And sure it's a trivial bit because everyone treats it that way - everyone focuses on the fluff text 'dey luvs da bionics!' and does not question whether that fluff text actually makes any sense in the setting. Well, Rappanui saw some of the text conflicting with itself, so not everyone.

Uh no, mage guilds aren't going to be 'pumping out' magical talismans, they aren't factories and contrary to what KC thinks they aren't medieval trade guilds that exist to produce magical items like the trade guilds turned out chairs or barrels. It's a bizarro setting if you've got mage guilds churning out magical items and all those book-listed high-tech nations and manufacturers producing nothing, because the setting itself is quite clear that outside of some techno-wizard production facilities (that couldn't exist without all the high-tech manufacturing since they convert conventional tech into magi-tech) there isn't any sort of organized mass-production of magical items but there are plenty of places that mass-produce technology.

Trying to insist technology like laser rifles is rare is just not in keeping with the books, it just isn't. The CS alone has produced millions if not tens of millions of standard CS energy rifles and pistols alone, it's impossible to successfully argue that such weapons are rare in the face of that. The Black Market has its knock-offs, Northern Gun produces enough that the CS wants it working for them, Free Quebec by itself has built up an army of Glitter Boys, and again the Games-Master Guide details hundreds of common technological items particularly weapons and vehicles and who produces them.

Also the statement that Brodkil love high-technology and cybernetic enhancements isn't fluff text, it's descriptive text like oh mages being secretive and jealously hoarding spell knowledge, like the spell knowledge required to make talismans. I imagine you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as 'fluff text' if it said 'Brodkil love magic and bio-wizard enhancements'

[Nightmask]

No, out of all the Brodkil if the one's most likely to have energy weapons happens to be those attacking the PC

I don't run games where such 'happens' conveniently occur just to the PC's. I find it contrived. No, I do not snap or bark at anyone else who wants to play that way. But I don't want to.

Everything just happens conveniently to the PC, everything is contrived. The game exists for things to happen however unlikely to the PC to create an ongoing RP experience. Your magic-wielding Brodkil are contrived, quite a bit moreso than any tech-wielding ones since the tech Brodkil are what we're told are normal Brodkil so magic-using ones are exceptions meaning they're far more contrived.

The Brodkil they are running into at the moment are from clans drawn toward psuedo-service to an undead god that's arising. I note this now because folks original arguments seemed entirely 'the text says they love tech, so tech they have', which ignored context.

Splugorth are quite the magic-loving god-like entities as well, yet they produce a LOT of advanced technology and make use of it. Serving an undead god by the same token doesn't mean their servants or minions would somehow be required to use magic, technology is common enough on Rifts Earth AND it makes it difficult to associate the minions with them if you're wanting a measure of secrecy since you don't think 'servant of a god' that often (outside some tech-favoring gods) when you see Brodkil coming around with their energy weapons.

in possession of these common items

Common like a Lamborghini is common, as opposed to being a magical device?

Please use the word 'mundane' instead of 'common', as that's what you meant but what you said leads to other interpretations.

I will continue to use 'common' since common is the right word. Certainly magical items are neither common nor mundane, requiring hand crafting by rare individuals with the abilities to do so and who are subject to basic needs unlike a factory that can produce non-stop without issue as long as it has raw materials to work with and depending on level of automation doesn't even need work shifts.

Energy weapons are common, like 'modern handgun' common, nearly every class that isn't anti-technology has one or more as standard equipment at the start not just a WP in them that someday maybe they'll find a gun to use with it. Which again is understandable when you look at all the manufacturers of them and how much has to have been captured from the CS alone over the past few decades. You don't want them common fine, but trying to insist that they aren't common by the book is not by the book because by the book they're common.

[Alrik Vas]

Oh, there's a dark god involved? That makes things pretty easy. A powerful spellcaster can outfit his goons with all kinds of goodies if he's got the spells, a ley line and the motivation. Give them all the fricken medallions you want man. Though i'd go with super str and impervious to energy.

And house of glass

[Noon]

So what was the point of the OP then in the first place? If you don't want to here how others would use the general description in the books to boost damage, if you already have the One True Solution, and if you already know that you don't want to go with how the books suggest things, but instead alter things to suit your specific game.....what is the point of asking? None of us is in your game, none of us know all the assumptions that go into your game. What we all have though is the same basic books, so when we are asked questions we provide what we can from those books, and then try to make some logical extrapolations from what is written in the books.

Oh please, you're not interested in hearing anything else yourself apart from what is written in the book, which you will not question whether it makes sense.

Who amongst you said 'well brodkil love tech - but that's not the only solution'?? But no, it's me who's trying to hammer home the one true solution, eh?

I had a question at the end of my OP - that was the point of the OP and you and others just focused on something other than the point. My fault is indulging that.

[Noon]

Uh no, mage guilds aren't going to be 'pumping out' magical talismans, they aren't factories and contrary to what KC thinks they aren't medieval trade guilds that exist to produce magical items like the trade guilds turned out chairs or barrels.

Who tells them to not act like factories and why do they obey?

What's the thing that controls their behaviour as you describe it and compels them to not mass produce talismans?

If you going to appeal to history but not acknowledge that times change as if how it was is how it always will be (a fallacy), then I'll give up.

Otherwise what thing is binding their actions in your setting, forcing them to not do this?

Trying to insist technology like laser rifles is rare

Maybe I said it to someone else, but I've already said 'rare' has nothing to do with my argument. Please stop bringing up that straw man.

Also the statement that Brodkil love high-technology and cybernetic enhancements isn't fluff text, it's descriptive text like oh mages being secretive and jealously hoarding spell knowledge, like the spell knowledge required to make talismans. I imagine you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as 'fluff text' if it said 'Brodkil love magic and bio-wizard enhancements'

You can't break out of the 'if the text says they love X, that means they get X' pattern?

It wouldn't matter if they love magic and bio-wiz stuff if they cannot afford them or don't have the power to steal them.

Crazy as it is, as much as it might seem one true wayism, in my games just because an NPC likes X, doesn't mean the NPC gets X. Even if that seems to contradicts cannon description.

[Noon]

The game exists for things to happen however unlikely to the PC to create an ongoing RP experience.

If you want to say that again, with you stating it's the one true way to game, then you're arguing something.

If you think it's just one way of playing, then really you had nothing - let it go.

in possession of these common items

Common like a Lamborghini is common, as opposed to being a magical device?

Please use the word 'mundane' instead of 'common', as that's what you meant but what you said leads to other interpretations.

*snip*but trying to insist that they aren't common by the book is not by the book because by the book they're common.

Yeah, yeah - and common as a hession sack is common - that's where this is leading, the sematic word play of getting a word accepted, then shifting the meaning over to being as common as a sack. And anyone can get hold of a sack, right? So totally they can get hold of a laser rifle, 'cause it's totally common!

Which would be great if it weren't for the book price.

[Noon]

Oh, there's a dark god involved? That makes things pretty easy. A powerful spellcaster can outfit his goons with all kinds of goodies if he's got the spells, a ley line and the motivation. Give them all the fricken medallions you want man. Though i'd go with super str and impervious to energy.

And house of glass

I am probably going fairly low key with the firebolt spell, I'd grant (I'm thinking of changing to a level 7 strength fireball spell instead). Yeah, they could have alot more magic stuff in such circumstances. I'm probably being fairly conservative.

[Alrik Vas]

Oh, there's a dark god involved? That makes things pretty easy. A powerful spellcaster can outfit his goons with all kinds of goodies if he's got the spells, a ley line and the motivation. Give them all the fricken medallions you want man. Though i'd go with super str and impervious to energy.

And house of glass

I am probably going fairly low key with the firebolt spell, I'd grant (I'm thinking of changing to a level 7 strength fireball spell instead). Yeah, they could have alot more magic stuff in such circumstances. I'm probably being fairly conservative.

You might be, but i don't know your group composition/level etc. However, in regards to the question you posted at the end of the OP:

I don't find SN PS to be lacking vs people, even when they have Armor of Ithan. This is because of what i explained in my own earlier post, where I explained that I rule melee attacks are if they were SDC (You get punch damage, PS bonus damage and weapon damage added together, making Brodkil with a giant vibro sword somewhere in the area of 5d6+9, 6d6 if they have fencing).

If that's not good for your purposes (which it often isn't, as this is my house rule) I would say stick with the amulets, or maybe just have the Brodkil enchanted themselves, so they're scary for a duration, but if the PC's can outlast that, they'll go back to normal and they know they can beat that.

[Killer Cyborg]

They are partly working for the god because (apart from pay and fear) of cheap power being handed to them. They are driven to this role by economics, not that a god did it.

And as I said before, mage guilds would pump out these things for the same reasons - to gain enforcers basically for free.

And sure it's a trivial bit because everyone treats it that way - everyone focuses on the fluff text 'dey luvs da bionics!' and does not question whether that fluff text actually makes any sense in the setting. Well, Rappanui saw some of the text conflicting with itself, so not everyone.

Uh no, mage guilds aren't going to be 'pumping out' magical talismans, they aren't factories and contrary to what KC thinks they aren't medieval trade guilds that exist to produce magical items like the trade guilds turned out chairs or barrels.

Hey, how'd I end up in this conversation...!?

Now that I'm here, though:
I certainly think that guilds would be more apt to sell talismans than to sell spells. Bigger market (i.e., everybody), and no danger of the item teaching the spell to anybody.
But I don't think they'd be flooding the market or anything, for the same reason they don't flood the market with spells- if you can cast spells yourself, you don't need the guilds as much.

[Alrik Vas]

I'll bite...

Agree about what?

[Noon]

Oh, there's a dark god involved? That makes things pretty easy. A powerful spellcaster can outfit his goons with all kinds of goodies if he's got the spells, a ley line and the motivation. Give them all the fricken medallions you want man. Though i'd go with super str and impervious to energy.

And house of glass

I am probably going fairly low key with the firebolt spell, I'd grant (I'm thinking of changing to a level 7 strength fireball spell instead). Yeah, they could have alot more magic stuff in such circumstances. I'm probably being fairly conservative.

You might be, but i don't know your group composition/level etc. However, in regards to the question you posted at the end of the OP:

I don't find SN PS to be lacking vs people, even when they have Armor of Ithan. This is because of what i explained in my own earlier post, where I explained that I rule melee attacks are if they were SDC (You get punch damage, PS bonus damage and weapon damage added together, making Brodkil with a giant vibro sword somewhere in the area of 5d6+9, 6d6 if they have fencing).

If that's not good for your purposes (which it often isn't, as this is my house rule) I would say stick with the amulets, or maybe just have the Brodkil enchanted themselves, so they're scary for a duration, but if the PC's can outlast that, they'll go back to normal and they know they can beat that.

I don't read the text as the supernatural geting the PS bonus in damage. I'm not saying it's not an interesting house rule though and it'd make the supernatural pretty freaky scary in melee combat (which is sort of apt for the supernatural - that's why I say it'd be interesting!). If I were to use your house rule, I think it'd solve the problem by itself, I agree.

While I'm granting them some extra powers or items though and stretching things that way though, I'm not keen on the extra stretch that is a base rule change. But maybe one day I'll try out the PS bonus house rule - perhaps if I run that Rifts Australia campaign I'm thinking about running one day...

[Giant2005]

the comments about brodkill not having energy weapons unless they serve some technological faction. ... infact, bionics are a huge weakness for brodkill... Yet another Ks'ism that doesn't make sense when you consider Supernatural ps and the abiltiy to turn invisible is better then some crappy arm with low mdc and crappier ranged weapons.... They only make sense in the presence of the Angel of death and her mindwerks minions..

The Bionics are certainly crappier from an out-of-character perspective but in character and for a Demon especially, I don't think so.
Bionics have two very important features: limitless endurance and no pain. Those two things are going to make a Brodkil feel like Superman, even if he was statistically better without it. In a society where might makes right, the ability to ignore pain and fight forever would be perceived as massive advantages, even if the numbers don't add up right.
Also, you are forgetting things like Amplified Hearing, Panorama Cluster Lense or the incredibly awesome Combat Computer which really are massive statistical advantages. Also having a Multi-optic eye that is capable of completely ignoring the Invisibility powers of your peers pretty much renders the sacrifice moot.

[Alrik Vas]

Bio-mech-demons sound pretty cool. It's just a matter of upping the ante. Why have a 3d6 hidden laser on a bionic arm for a 10ft tall guy when you could have a highly exposed ATL-7 mounted on the arm? Just sayin'!

Or maybe all the brodkil could be Momano Hunters with TW Bionics? Flaming swords all over the place.

[glitterboy2098]

the comments about brodkill not having energy weapons unless they serve some technological faction. ... infact, bionics are a huge weakness for brodkill... Yet another Ks'ism that doesn't make sense when you consider Supernatural ps and the abiltiy to turn invisible is better then some crappy arm with low mdc and crappier ranged weapons.... They only make sense in the presence of the Angel of death and her mindwerks minions..

In the old RMB supernatural PS wasn't as good as it is now, being more like the current augmented in terms of damage. So for the time they were written the bionics thing made more sense. Now we just have to assume they prefer to have the option for built in weapons and such.

except , they typically do not get those optic implants and just go for brute force implants, like bionic arms nd vibro claws, which do Less damage then their own claw attack...

Actually the art usually shows them with bionic eyes so I'd say they would get those things if they could. Though they might not be as widespread compared to say, a built in laser and machine gun.

IMO the brodkil are a perfect place to adapt some of the feel of war hammer 40k's space orks. Fixated with guns, the bigger the better, even though their natural hand to hand abilities are excellent and their aim usually poor.

[Noon]

In late breaking news I'm considering using simultanious attacks, to effectively double their damage potential. But I don't like how simo attacks make it into a meat fest and remove skill from the equation, so I think for my game I'll let the players parry, but at half their usual bonus (or maybe a quarter?)

[flatline]

In late breaking news I'm considering using simultanious attacks, to effectively double their damage potential. But I don't like how simo attacks make it into a meat fest and remove skill from the equation, so I think for my game I'll let the players parry, but at half their usual bonus (or maybe a quarter?)

It is my recommendation to never allow people to choose to make simultaneous attacks. Simultaneous attacks should only happen when the situation dictates it (i.e. two people with tied initiative attacking each other and neither aborts to dodge).

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

In late breaking news I'm considering using simultanious attacks, to effectively double their damage potential. But I don't like how simo attacks make it into a meat fest and remove skill from the equation, so I think for my game I'll let the players parry, but at half their usual bonus (or maybe a quarter?)

They don't remove skill from the equation, they just change the equation.

[Noon]

By removing parry and dodge from it.

I know, I know, you've got this idea that losing MDC really hurts and it hurts so bad that creatures intelligent enough to realise they out MDC the other creature will still avoid using simo attacks even unto death and keep parrying, cause it real hurts the bad.

[Killer Cyborg]

By removing parry and dodge from it.

I know, I know, you've got this idea that losing MDC really hurts and it hurts so bad that creatures intelligent enough to realise they out MDC the other creature will still avoid using simo attacks even unto death and keep parrying, cause it real hurts the bad.

No.
I have this idea that if you're in a situation where every time you attack somebody, you get attacked in return, and you're going to lose if you keep up that strategy, you should find a new strategy.

For example, say you're wearing Plastic Man armor (35 MDC), and you're armed with a vibro-sword (2d6 MD).
Your opponent is wearing Bushman armor (60 MDC) and is armed with a vibro-sword (2d6 MD).
You each dish out an average of 7 MD per successful attack.
You can kill your opponent in 9 hits.
They can kill you in 5 hits.
Trading blows with them is stupid. If they're smart enough to simo, then you should be smart enough to not attack unless there are special circumstances.
If, for example, you have Paired Weapons and they do not, then you should be able to parry their simo-attacks with your off hand.
If, for example, you have a partner with the same gear as you, you can take turns trading blows, because you have a combined MDC higher than the opponent.
Or if you have some kind of other ace up your sleeve.
Otherwise, do something different. Don't just let your opponent kill you slowly because you refuse to stop blindly attacking.

[eliakon]

Because we all know that monsters will form nice polite lines and fight the players 1:1. We also know that everyone has nice signs up that list their damage capacities.
Or perhaps we might have say 6 players and 11 brodkil. Brokdil that suspect that they are screwed and going to die unless they do something QUICK. Brodkil who are likely already getting hit every time (PCs tend to have really high strike bonuses). Hrm, sounds like a time for a nice berserk zerg rush.

[Noon]

Otherwise, do something different. Don't just let your opponent kill you slowly because you refuse to stop blindly attacking.

The same can be said for where there are no simo attacks and the opponent is winning because of higher parry or dodge.

You don't need to remove parry/dodge from the equation in order to make 'do something else' sometimes the only option.

[Killer Cyborg]

Otherwise, do something different. Don't just let your opponent kill you slowly because you refuse to stop blindly attacking.

The same can be said for where there are no simo attacks and the opponent is winning because of higher parry or dodge.

You don't need to remove parry/dodge from the equation in order to make 'do something else' sometimes the only option.

Do you seriously, for even one second, think that my point was that it was necessary to remove Parry/Dodge from the equation...?

[Killer Cyborg]

LOL , I love this one line...

"Don't just let your opponent kill you slowly because you refuse to stop blindly attacking."
I've seen this happen in soooo many games.

Unfortunately, I have too.
Just goes to show how well Bertrand Russel had it pegged:
"Most people would die sooner than think – in fact they do so."

[Alrik Vas]

Options are important. Grappling your opponent works pretty well too. Also, the ol' Simultaneous Attack is a tough nut to crack. I agree with KC, sometimes not attacking is the best offense.

[eliakon]

Don't forget you can also Disarm, or attack a persons weapons (or tools, or magic doodad or....)

[Alrik Vas]

Right, let's give the Brodkil super powers. Equip each with an exo-skeleton and a boom gun, give them Invulnerability and all the supernova fire abilities, all the energy reflection and house of glass casted on them just in case. Oh, you know, just make them all shifters too, and maybe they all summoned Servants of Ahriman, that are all Ley Line Walkers as well.

And they all ride ancient great horned dragons, and keep Splugorth on leashes.

[PSI-Lence]

i'm more interested in what other house rule power they all gained at the cost of MDC?

and if you think that they would not 'just start' with tech weapons and such then how did your players get MD guns and armor?

how much do they spend on fixing their armor?

if there is some undead god coming back, why are your players focused on selling guns, and to whom are they selling them? (don't they have more important things to worry about?) or have you never given them the option and insist on never attacking them with expensive items?

broodkill without bionics (forgive me i am going by memory) can turn invisible (can your players see the invisible at all times? if not that drastically improves broodkill damage as they don't get shot closing the distance) regenerate MDC (meaning if they are hurt they can run off and regroup while the players armor needs to be repaired and broodkill just wait and heal) and have supernatural strength ...have one pick up a player and give them a good toss, if the player can't fly they could find the fight over by the time they closed the distance again and/or gained their wits

broodkill might like to fight but arn't as i remember totally brain dead, aside from hit and run tactics , appearing and disappearing during a fight, picking on the weakest target (which not only takes a person out of the fight but demoralizes the rest of the team or forces them to try helping) even if the broodkill were matched 1-to-1 to a group they wanted to rob, they should not have much trouble , also take into account that as they have supernatural endurance they don't tire as fast or need as much sleep, more of the people they'd rob are human one or two might be up to keep watch for danger ...and the rest would be sleeping (probably vulnerable and without all their armor on)

you say that people being robed of the lasers would be using them ...well that would be the case for magic items too ...ones which have a much smaller 'ammo' reserve and need a mage to recharge them, ...but ok 'a god gave it to them' ...why not 'a god slaughtered a group of CS and gave the broodkill guns' you say the boodkill are following the god for cheap power? but are you saying that (your) broodkill do not prefer technology? if you changed it fine, but at that point you are probably better off just making a new race that does the damage you want and has as little or as much MDC as you want, otherwise there are very easy ways for broodkill to go about getting the type of 'power' they desire most, which is tech, either robbing small bands of mercs, CS patrols , hiring themselves out to a cyber doc, making their way to atlantis

and if your broodkill do have bionics are the PC's really going to take the time to hack off limbs? who in the group knows how to remove bionics, in the field, without damaging them , and as has been pointed out in the thread (and i don't remember which books) the players would be LUCKY to get more than 10% of the value . probably less if it was stolen

and the easy reason guns could be so expensive even though it is clear they are mass produced ...is all the stuff trying to kill you in rifts is MDC if you have to mortgage your house to buy one it's still better off to have a laser rifle than to be eaten

now more detail on the PC's in your group? how did they get all their gear? what do they have? how much could they possibly carry? broodkill aren't small and weight adds up, if they have some truck that can take the weight then they still have the volume to deal with, you can only haul so many guns and bionics at a time, where are they? you pointed out that guns cost "SOO MUCH" so who in your game could afford to buy a truck load? not some small fishing village they might come across ,though players that are hungry might well trade a laser riffle and a few clips for a few days supply of fish, the use of a well and clean water, maybe even the chance to have a bath with hot water (prostitute optional) ...or maybe they would think since there is some evil god rising to power that the villiage could really use some guns to defend themselves (with it also being a buffer for the PC's so any broodkill coming from that direction now has armed NPC's that are friendly to the PC's able to defend themselves at least for a while)


there are plenty of ways to get around the PC's just selling guns , but you still haven't even gotten to why you have an issue with that?

even if there was a perfect situation and the PC's had enough time not worrying about this dark god
they had plenty of weapons in good condition
they did not take any damage and so don't need repairs or have any other expendatures
they find a hive of people all with credits and all wanting to buy the guns (maybe even as high as 50% which would be unlikely)
and the players get hundreds of thousands of credits ... so what? is the evil gods ones weakness money?
are you afraid the PC's will just bribe the god to go to another dimension? hell if the broodkill like easy power the PC's could just hire them with a few cheap MD weapons and promise to not kill them

so why are credits a bad thing? and why would you conspire to keep good items out of their hands that they should have to fight for , but should have the option at least

and if your players WANT to set up a gun running/merchant organization ...well if your evil god brings about 20 000 years of darkness ...your PC's can be the ones selling flashlights (and since the mass produced flashlights will be in such high demands expect the prices to be very high)

[Alrik Vas]

Don't be Silly. The Bivouac is the new standard of munchkin mount.
and they are armed with Dominator weapons.
you completely missed my point.

I'll betcha I didn't.

[Noon]

Otherwise, do something different. Don't just let your opponent kill you slowly because you refuse to stop blindly attacking.

The same can be said for where there are no simo attacks and the opponent is winning because of higher parry or dodge.

You don't need to remove parry/dodge from the equation in order to make 'do something else' sometimes the only option.

Do you seriously, for even one second, think that my point was that it was necessary to remove Parry/Dodge from the equation...?

Of course not - that's my arguement - to tell you that's what your doing by having simo attacks available.

It wouldn't be my argument if you already realised you were removing them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Otherwise, do something different. Don't just let your opponent kill you slowly because you refuse to stop blindly attacking.

The same can be said for where there are no simo attacks and the opponent is winning because of higher parry or dodge.

You don't need to remove parry/dodge from the equation in order to make 'do something else' sometimes the only option.

Do you seriously, for even one second, think that my point was that it was necessary to remove Parry/Dodge from the equation...?

Of course not - that's my arguement - to tell you that's what your doing by having simo attacks available.

It wouldn't be my argument if you already realised you were removing them.

Odd.
I thought that your argument was "I don't like how simo attacks make it into a meat fest and remove skill from the equation," and that my rebuttal was that simo attacks do NOT remove skill from the equation, they only change the equation.
Since, you know, that's what we each said.

I'm guessing at this point that you think that "parry and dodge" are the only ways in which skill is represented in the game...?


IF instead you misspoke, and you meant to say "I don't like how simo attacks make it into a meat fest and remove Parry And Dodge from the equation," that's a different conversation.
I fully understand that simo-attacks when used remove parry and dodge from the equation. That IS, in fact, the very function of the maneuver.
Of course, simo-attacks don't always need to be used, and are often counter-productive if used unwisely.
So I feel that I'm no closer to understanding what your exact issue is when it comes to simo-attacks.

[Noon]

i'm more interested in what other house rule power they all gained at the cost of MDC?

For your own potential use?

and if you think that they would not 'just start' with tech weapons and such then how did your players get MD guns and armor?

Saved up money, mostly.

Sure, they find some low power weapons occasionally - a 1D6 laser isn't going to up the damage of a brodkil, is it? And even those cost a bundle.

As I see it brodkil are lazy and the players are fairly industrious at tracking down loot.

how much do they spend on fixing their armor?

How much did you spend to become a game auditor?

They've had some discounts, but generally payed SB1 prices.

if there is some undead god coming back, why are your players focused on selling guns, and to whom are they selling them? (don't they have more important things to worry about?)

You sound like the sort of player who thinks they know how to better play other players characters than they do.

Does anyone have to justify how they play their character to you?

or have you never given them the option and insist on never attacking them with expensive items?

You're being annoying with the 'insist' part, as you utterly ignore how someone else might have an idea of how the game world works that differs from yours and just saying it's insisting.

When you're interested in how I think the world works, get back to me.

but are you saying that (your) broodkill do not prefer technology? if you changed it fine, but at that point you are probably better off just making a new race

What is up with how some of you guys game? Is it utter just world fallacy? Where even the demons, if they want something, some kinda justice comes up and gives them the plenty easy opportunity to get it?

Of course it's easy for them to get it - you make it easy because this is the order you think in 1. They like tech 2. You modify the world to forfil #1.

You don't 1. figure out your own idea of how the world works then 2. See if that actually contradicts the fluff text and creatures don't just get what's on their christmas wishlist.

all the stuff trying to kill you in rifts is MDC if you have to mortgage your house to buy one it's still better off to have a laser rifle than to be eaten

Mortgages...in rifts.

Okay, if that's part of your game world landscape. Just not really there for mine.

there are plenty of ways to get around the PC's just selling guns , but you still haven't even gotten to why you have an issue with that?

You're ignoring the supply aspect as being the problem. I don't care about them selling something they could come across. I do care about them selling things they just wouldn't come across.

and why would you conspire to keep good items out of their hands that they should have to fight for , but should have the option at least

You sound like nightmask.

Here's the thing - if a player consistantly just treated my rendering of the world as conspiring I would politely decline to offer them a seat anymore because A. I don't think they enjoy roleplaying at all when presenting a world just seems someone in RL conspiring or B: They are just whining to gain advantage.

I fully admit I do not run games to please people who try to use words like conspiracy to leverage advantage in what they get to write in pencil on their scrap of paper.

You can't believe a world with lots of poor folk in it - I get that. The conspiracy crap doesn't matter - the central conceit of lots of poor folk doesn't float with you. ALL the rest of it wont make sense, because that central conceit is alien to you. Yours is rifts with mortgages in it.

[42dragon]

Noon, you proposed your solution and asked a question. So far it appears most/all don't agree with your solution and offered other canon examples of how they would solve it.

If you are GM'ing you are within your right to change anything and everything. However no one (except maybe your players) has to agree that your solution is correct or even makes sense.

I agree with most other opinions per canon Brodkil love technology (however illogical it may be). Give them a laser rifle or some grenades, ect.. If player characters can get them easily so can NPC's. But it is your game, run it however you like.

[Nightmask]

and why would you conspire to keep good items out of their hands that they should have to fight for , but should have the option at least

You sound like nightmask.

Don't be dragging me in like that, you've zero reason tossing out a reference to me.

Here's the thing - if a player consistantly just treated my rendering of the world as conspiring I would politely decline to offer them a seat anymore because A. I don't think they enjoy roleplaying at all when presenting a world just seems someone in RL conspiring or B: They are just whining to gain advantage.

C: they do enjoy roleplaying but you're so focused on keeping things as limited as possible so they can't get anywhere that they have a reason to complain, and given your own words in this thread about how you want to make sure the Brodkil don't have anything useful the characters could salvage after a fight it really DOES sound like you're conspiring. Since as someone else noted you started this thread asking for help from people only to consistently shoot down everything they've said and insist you'll run it your way so why bother asking if you had no intention of doing anything but tell everyone 'sorry no the only way I intend to play it is my way'.

I fully admit I do not run games to please people who try to use words like conspiracy to leverage advantage in what they get to write in pencil on their scrap of paper.

You can't believe a world with lots of poor folk in it - I get that. The conspiracy crap doesn't matter - the central conceit of lots of poor folk doesn't float with you. ALL the rest of it wont make sense, because that central conceit is alien to you. Yours is rifts with mortgages in it.

I guess you failed to realize he was using that in the figurative sense not the literal sense, as the 'having to morgage your house to get something' is a common turn of phrase either as a complaint regarding the cost of something (like something 'costing an arm and a leg') or to emphasize something was just that important as to put yourself into debt in order to acquire it.

Bandits also aren't often the 'poor folk' of the world, the entire point of their business is to go out and steal stuff from people for their own profit, so they generally have better stuff than the average person since when you just go around STEALING stuff you don't happen to be held back like the people who're honest and actually can't get it until they can pay for it. But hey if you want to play it that bandits are the poorest of the poor and 'ain't got nothin' that's your prerogative, but you aren't likely to get many people thinking that makes sense.

[Nightmask]

i don't know about you, most adventuring parties are nothing but thieves who get rich off stealing everything they can off the dead. or bad guys. or the local tax collector. ... however, That said, Brodkil are no longer the topic of conversation at this point. It seems a tad many g.m's throw tantrums when a player manages to get a "heavy weapon" or a weapon only a npc would have..as opposed to players who complain when an NPC has a weapon only BIG Respectable players would have.

Well to be fair whatever the goals of an adventuring party they almost always require you have the resources to carry them out, which generally means money to acquire what you need and the most effective way to generate money is taking it from others (hopefully from bandits and other evil sorts, to use their ill-gotten gains for the greater good). It's also a useful shortcut if you can retrieve enemy weapons and gear and put it to your own use outright rather than having to go buy it. Which is why players tend to get peeved if their GM is always having it where they can salvage little to nothing from their opponents while having to deal with all their costs and keeping them from actually progressing on their goals (while being driven to have to complete their GM's goals). The 'always in debt' trope may be nice in fiction (like the Outlaw Star anime) but players tend not to find it particularly enjoyable (and even in Outlaw Star Gene always managed to get approval for the cash he needed to ensure he covered all his repairs and resupply needs).

[flatline]

i don't know about you, most adventuring parties are nothing but thieves who get rich off stealing everything they can off the dead.

If I kill someone who is attempting to kill me, does looting their remains make me a thief? Or is the loot merely the spoils of war?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Outlaw star and Bebop, they were never really broke, but just burned through the money they did get like it water.. even vast sums of it, they always had enough to get the upgrade, to buy the official, to do XYZ.

GM's often have no sense of time if they're into dramatic and not tactical play, they'll skip time frames erratically, mostly against the pcs.

In Rifts and DnD, it's more like I'm a veteran but i can never get enough time to fully heal because i'm under constant attack...

You should rewatch Outlaw Star, they were definitely in debt, they never paid up to Fred who kept extending Gene credit because he was hot for him. They would cover other bills and end up broke after but kept accumulating debt with Fred.

[glitterboy2098]

and in bebop, they were usually broke.. most episodes they missed out on the big bounties, and the smaller ones they did get evidently was never enough to buy much in the way of supplies. most of the time when they were getting info or arranging special treatment, they were taking advantage of old friends, or just talking to random people. presumably keeping the Bebop itself flying was the main priority for them.

[Noon]

Noon, you proposed your solution and asked a question. So far it appears most/all don't agree with your solution and offered other canon examples of how they would solve it.

You're not prepared to see canon as being wrong, not even in the fluff.

Yours is not the only way to play.

If you are GM'ing you are within your right to change anything and everything. However no one (except maybe your players) has to agree that your solution is correct or even makes sense.

Then people aren't discussing anything with me, they are just advertising the one true way to do it.

Why do people pretend a conversation when they just want to deliver an advertisement?

If you're discussing with me, then you have to humour that you might end up agreeing it makes some degree of sense (or even with a particular set up, makes some degree of sense)

Otherwise it's just dishonest. If you're utterly fixated on one outcome, it's an advert.

[Noon]

Here's the thing - if a player consistantly just treated my rendering of the world as conspiring I would politely decline to offer them a seat anymore because A. I don't think they enjoy roleplaying at all when presenting a world just seems someone in RL conspiring or B: They are just whining to gain advantage.

C: they do enjoy roleplaying but you're so focused on keeping things as limited as possible so they can't get anywhere that they have a reason to complain, and given your own words in this thread about how you want to make sure the Brodkil don't have anything useful the characters could salvage after a fight it really DOES sound like you're conspiring.

Yeah, zero reason to reference you at all...

You sound like you don't enjoy any depiction of the game world, NM? It's all an utter meta game argument for you.

I have actually sat though games where pitiful amounts of game currency came after hours of play. So I can sympathise with the position.

Until you tell me how much credits you think you should get per RL hour, I just don't care about your argument.

You strike me as not wanting to be in charge, so you'll avoid saying how much you want per RL hour because that'd be taking charge of your life, but you do want to argue in meta terms about it with who is in charge.

The reason your concerns get ignored, like they are being ignored now, is because you avoid taking charge.

Since as someone else noted you started this thread asking for help from people...

Read the original post again. You and 'someone else' are putting words into my mouth.

I fully admit I do not run games to please people who try to use words like conspiracy to leverage advantage in what they get to write in pencil on their scrap of paper.

You can't believe a world with lots of poor folk in it - I get that. The conspiracy crap doesn't matter - the central conceit of lots of poor folk doesn't float with you. ALL the rest of it wont make sense, because that central conceit is alien to you. Yours is rifts with mortgages in it.

I guess you failed to realize he was using that in the figurative sense not the literal sense, as the 'having to morgage your house to get something' is a common turn of phrase either as a complaint regarding the cost of something (like something 'costing an arm and a leg') or to emphasize something was just that important as to put yourself into debt in order to acquire it.

So he figuratively meant a literal debt - which is what a mortgage is. A debt. But he meant it figuratively as he said it literally. Ok.

Bandits also aren't often the 'poor folk' of the world, the entire point of their business is to go out and steal stuff from people for their own profit, so they generally have better stuff than the average person since when you just go around STEALING stuff you don't happen to be held back like the people who're honest and actually can't get it until they can pay for it. But hey if you want to play it that bandits are the poorest of the poor and 'ain't got nothin' that's your prerogative, but you aren't likely to get many people thinking that makes sense.

Please tell me the incomes of those they steal from and where those people get their income from.

With no 'some boss just pays them and we don't ask where he gets his money' easy get outs.

For people who handwave away any question of how those they steal from get their income, of course it all makes perfect sense, I totally agree.

[eliakon]

I am not going to attempt to decipher the above posts unattributed quotes, however I will just say this
1) there is no reason to attack the poster, not their posts (Ad Hominem attacks don't prove anything)
2) is there any specific reason that people SHOULDN'T assume that canon is, you know, canon?
3) There is no 'right' amount of power or money or what not in a game other than "what the players like, and the GM is okay with"
4) Fnord
5) There is no rational economic theory operating in Rifts Earth, so attempting to find out how its economy works is a fools errand
6) Uh, can I say "No rational economic theory" twice, cause its cool like that

[Nightmask]

and in bebop, they were usually broke.. most episodes they missed out on the big bounties, and the smaller ones they did get evidently was never enough to buy much in the way of supplies. most of the time when they were getting info or arranging special treatment, they were taking advantage of old friends, or just talking to random people. presumably keeping the Bebop itself flying was the main priority for them.

Unsurprising that, given the importance of keeping their primary means of getting around and earning an income. Better to be living a bit lean than skimp on the repairs needed to keep their vehicle up.

[Noon]

I am not going to attempt to decipher the above posts unattributed quotes, however I will just say this
1) there is no reason to attack the poster, not their posts (Ad Hominem attacks don't prove anything)

Or to put words in other peoples mouths.

2) is there any specific reason that people SHOULDN'T assume that canon is, you know, canon?

There's no reason to question anything really, that is true.

Take everything at face value!

3) There is no 'right' amount of power or money or what not in a game other than "what the players like, and the GM is okay with"

Is there no right amount of tech either, or your relativist idea there is no right amount of money applies to your idea, but with the brodkil there is a right amount of tech?

Can't have it both ways.

5) There is no rational economic theory operating in Rifts Earth, so attempting to find out how its economy works is a fools errand

Well there is no rifts earth to begin with - that makes 'finding out' its economy even harder, doesn't it!

But plenty of folks here seem to know how much a bandit can steal from regular NPC's.

So are they just inventing that (which is fine - inventing from details is what I'm doing) or are they arguing they know the economic theory of rifts earth?

I guess you socked it to them!

[Killer Cyborg]

i don't know about you, most adventuring parties are nothing but thieves who get rich off stealing everything they can off the dead.

If I kill someone who is attempting to kill me, does looting their remains make me a thief? Or is the loot merely the spoils of war?

--flatline

The first does not negate the second, nor vice-versa.

[flatline]

If two powers are at war, unless there are treaties that say otherwise, one power is not required to follow the laws of the other power.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

If two powers are at war, unless there are treaties that say otherwise, one power is not required to follow the laws of the other power.

--flatline

Wasn't that pretty much the point of Privateers? Basically bandits that had approval from one nation to rob nations they were in conflict with, in exchange for letting them get away with it and be a safe port for them, unlike Pirates who robbed everyone indiscriminately and everyone wanted dead.