High Tech Sensors and Magic

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Putting the issue to rest.

I already did, but, hey, you completely ignored everything i posted and just continued on as i everything you said hadn't been thoroughly debunked, but hey, lets do round two anyway.

Tech VS Magic. I have reviewed the spell.

Which one? Invisibility: Superior or Invisibility to Sensors? I covered two different spells. And, from your replies below, i dont think you reviewed either one at all. Ill repost the text of both, just to make sure we're both on the same page here.

A powerful incantation that makes the spell caster invisible to all means of detection. Ordinary vision, infrared, ultraviolet, other optics, heat, motion detectors, and even an animal's sense of smell, can NOT locate the invisible person. No footprints are made, and little sound (prowls at 84%). The Magic is broken only if the character makes a hostile move, or engages in combat/attacks. At that instant, he becomes completely visible. Note: The invisible character is not ethereal and can not walk through walls; he m ust still use a door. The act of forcing open a door or window, picking a lock, tapping somebody, accidentally bumping somebody, or accidentally getting shot or hurt is not considered an act of agression or combat, so invisibility is maintained.

I added some emphasis on the first sentence there. ALL means of detection. Doesn't matter if it is an automated system or not. ALL. All is quite clear, and not open to any particular interpretation. ALL. Also, there is no saving throw for this spell of any kind. None.

Im going to add Invisibility: Simple as well, because that will come up below when i debunk your ideas. I'm only going to post the relevant part, as the description is much longer and most of it isn't particularly relevant.

First Sentence: The spell caster and anything he is wearing or carrying at the time of the invocation are turned completely invisible.
Third Paragraph: While invisible, the mag can talk, weave spells, walk, climb, run, open doors, carry objects, and perform other acts of physical exertion, including combat, and remain invisible

Emphasis mine on the last sentence there.

Now well get to Invisibility to Sensors:

Note: Saving Throw listed as "Special"
This spell Magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightivsion optics, motions sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared beams, etc, will not detect the character and thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as other magical or psionic viewing means.
There is no saving throw against this spell unless and organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggle's themselves.

Well, that seems pretty clear. Only organic, intelligent life forms looking through high-tech optics have ANY chance of detecting the character. Now couple this with EITHER invisibility spell, both of which make you invisible to the eye, and there is NO way to detect you. NONE.

The only thing that would get through Invisibility to Sensors is rendered moot by Invisibility (Simple or Superior).

Just for shiggles, we'll add this little gem to the mix, which i just stumbled across while looking up Invisibility to Sensors:

(Note: No saving throw). The Stealthwalk spell does not conceal the physical presence of the caster, or footprints, but it does magically suppress any sound made by the enchanted individual while moving. The spells masks the sound of breathing, footfalls and climbing as well as well as muting the sound of equipment attached to or worn by the individual that might rustle, clunk or clatter, including body armor, weapons, etc.

So you add that on top of Invisibility: Superior and you dont even make noise, which was the ONLY possible way a PERSON might be able to detect you (since sensors that detect noise are rendered ineffective by Invisibility to Sensors and Invisibility: Superior 'only' made you 84% silent).

Okay, now that that info is there to reference, let's move on.

Its the failure of the operator to detect the person not the device.

Incorrect. Read the spell. You're immune to them (actually, you're immune to them twice - once through Invisibility to Sensors and once through Invisibility: Superior.

Robots are in a quasi grey area. As are automated guns.

Not from anything i can find, they aren't. They use sensors, and therefore, you're invisible to them. Nothing in any of those descriptions intimates that Robots are special somehow. Feel free to point out and quote a source that you feels supports your position, if you can find one.

Here are a few rules of thumb to handle such.

Im not particularly interested in your house rules being presented as if they were somehow true when they aren't, but this should be amusing, at least.

People can feel as they are being watched or have a Sixth Sense feeling.

Only if they are actually psychic and have Sixth Sense. Otherwise, no they cant. And It's pointed out right off that the only way to detect an invisible person with psionics is with See the Invisible, so Sixth Sense may clue you into "man something is hinky here" but it wont help you locate an invisible person in any way.

Superior Invisibility only works if no combat is engaged. Thus hand held devices or such being used by living beings will not work as the person fails to recognize the invisible person.

This has nothing to do with how Invisibility: Superior works. It isn't about the person. You're immune to the sensors themselves, not just the operator. There is literally NOTHING in the spell that says it somehow only affects the operators and the sensors are still actually seeing you. Ill repeat: NOTHING. Even if that were the case, Invisibility to Sensors has this covered anyway.

Should said person engage in hostile actions they become visible. That being said using good judgement i would say that any ship that is able to detect things hundreds of miles away have detected the person.

Right, but flying (or teleporting) to nearby isn't a hostile action, and the ship CANT detect them. CANT. They're immune to the ships sensors. And the great thing is nothing is preventing you from having both Invisibility: Simple and Superior active at the same time, so even if Invisibility Superior goes down, you're still invisible to optics, and Invisibility to Sensors is making you immune to all the rest, so you're completely covered. Nothing can see you other than magic or psionic See the Invisible. (Or a natural ability that mimics them)

Psychics might also mill about as the NGR does not use magic.

What does this even mean?

Now in this case due to it not being a starship but a ship none the less. Sensor operators are not seeing the object.

No, the SENSORS THEMSELVES AREN'T DETECTING THE OBJECT. That's clearly stated in both spells.

Nor will a hand held device or anything that would be robot like. How ever since the NGR has things like Fusion reactors and the like to advanced sensors or nano bots i would assume that the ships automated defences will not see the intruder on passive devices like IR. How ever the spell says motion detectors.

So if you plan on flying right in laden down with a suitcase nuke or explosives thus are using a flying spell thus you have a chance to be detected.

I'd grant that arming a nuke would probably be considered 'hostile" and therefore lower Invisibility: Superior once you did it.. but i already covered that above. Having Simple active as well neatly covers you.

I never actually presented this scenario, though, and you've totally ignored the one i did present to just rattle on about something no one was actually talking about.

Patrols of craft not to mention robots patrolling the hull as it would be locked down against intruders. So avoiding patrols of robots and patrols of craft or robots.

A automated defense system will engage the said person if he or she is aggressive.

Only if it can see or detect them - and it CANT. Invisible to optics thanks to Invisibility Simple and Superior, Invisible to ALL OTHER SENSORS due to Invisibility to Sensors and Stealthwalk, just for shiggles.

It might not be able to see that person but it can try to track or target it. Robots like the Dyna-Bot, Skelebot or Sentry Bot Dv-40 or Archies robots all are able to process information or even computers. So if the computer recognizes an anomaly it will flag it.

But it wont. It can't see anything any more than a person can.

Robots would have penalties to track or see what ever it is that is invisible due to a failure but illusions nor mind control works on them.

Since none of these spells are mind control, or an "illusion", as such, we've got nothing to worry about. They even say that they DO prevent you from being detected by high tech sensors.

They do not have a human mind as does a borg so the sensory input is not the same. So doing things or moving too fast also gives a chance for them to Detect. Not see them per se.

No it doesn't. Invisibility to Sensors AND Invisibility: Superior both make you completely immune to motion detectors. Stealthwalk means you dont make any noise whatsoever.

-30% To -40% as ghost like actions like bumping into people or the like. Increase +5% actions like bumping into someone ect. that some ghost or thing is aboard. They cannot see it but it exists. Also the person would be sneaking around. Anything that would constitute as not normal. Doors opening or some one puts a suitcase down yet the are not around. Remember if its hostile you loose Invisibility Superior spell. Is going to be suspicious.

Sections of the ship will have safeguards during wartime.

If this were a CS ship, i'd agree that those safeguards might matter. Sea Dogs posted at all the hatches. Because the CS actually fights spellcasting enemies on a regular basis of the type that CAN infiltrate their facilities. Ergo, they have a special unit they developed specifically to help them deal with these threats: Dog Boys. The NGR has no equivalent, and doesn't have enemies that are organized, human-sized and looking spellcasters. They do face enemy magic in the field, but it is from Gargoyle Mages, most of whom wouldnt even FIT inside a human-sized building or ship, so they've never had to develop defenses against magic infiltration on this scale. The CS has had to deal with this for about 100 years, though, with the Federation of Magic, Tolkeen, and other magic using, human and human looking enemies.

As should be proved by how the CS does it, though, technology isn't the answer. If it was, they wouldn't need Dog Boys to protect sensitive facilities from supernatural infiltration. They'd have tech to do it, and they dont.. because there isn't a good tech answer.

Not to mention things locked down so intruders cannot get below decks. As for the robots if you do something that is odd as a computer can process things faster than a human than it can alert some one that a person or thing(even a Fairy) Is aboard.

Invisibility does not mean that said person avoids detection.

Actually, as you can see in the above spell descriptions, that is exactly what it means.

If you look in RUE In the Magic Section the spells do cost something.

Yep, for the entire shebang, we're looking at about 56 PPE to be 100% immune to detection by any technological means and immune to detection by people. (20 each for Invisibility: Superior and Invisibility to Sensors, 10 for Stealthwalk, and 6 for Invisibility: Simple).

So a mage might be reluctant unless they have good reasons for doing what people are trying to describe. I am not saying the person is not invisible to be clear but that once people are aware that strange events that Video Tape ect can be used to piece together if some one is on board the ship that should not be or even use psychics or robots to ferret out the intruder.

Psychics is the only way to do it, and See the Invisible has an absurdly short range. Robots and video recordings cant see you or detect you. And really, im not sure what you're getting at with "for doing what people are trying to describe". No one described a boarding action for anything other than recon. Ill get back to what i DID actually describe in a bit here, and you can maybe address what was ACTUALLY said.

I am stating the person will need to be inventive. Ships sensors depending on the tech can do many things with a power source like a fusion reactor or nuclear reactor. Thus if people make a roll just using sensors if very high tech like spaceflight unless they have magic means of detection.

So this means if the person thinks some one is aboard or somehow the computer picks up an anomaly thus they cannot see it yet its flagged. Yet its on the deck or nearing the ship they can make a roll to see if they can spot it or they can use the sensors with a hefty penalty to be aware of the mage or person.

Except, as we've already covered... they really cant. You're invisible to sensors of any kind other than optics thanks to Invisibility to Sensors, and Invisibility Simple and Superior have you covered against optics. Stealthwalk prevents you from making any noise, even accidentally.

So any person who can see the invisible person make sounds or attract attention via automated weapons that fire at anything yet they cannot see it. Thus it takes good judgment. A mage who is careless thus thinking the motion detector would not pick them up on a automated weapon would fire at the mage who is flying faster than normal. It does not have a IFF or is a target it can see as it likely is telling the computer that something is moving. Computer says to fire at it as it is motion.

Except the motion detector cant detect the mage at all, so it isn't going to fire at anything. How fast the mage is moving (except for stealthwalk) has no affect on any of these spells.

Thus robots have exceptions

No they don't. You can feel free to try to quote a page/passage that you feel supports that theory, but i dont think you're going to find one, given how clear cut the spells in question are.

as they are not exactly tricked unless the magic is so powerful it really ignores common sense or logic. Thus it is used like the description. Exceptions will happen.

No they wont. The spells work like the spells say they work.

Any Ship with expensive sensors, Plus a good crew and a power core might be able to figure things out in time.

Except that there is nothing for them to figure out. They cant detect you visually, with sensors of any kind or by sound. So, you're literally 100% undetectable outside of magic or psionics.

As for Teleport i know that one also. Sure the question is why would some one spend all that money or favors ect to get that one spell only to die in a suicide attack.

All this shows is that you didn't read a word i said. Teleport: Lesser is level 6. It would cost about as much as an expensive weapon on the market, and isn't that high level. It doesn't even let you make a "suicide attack" as you cant teleport living beings with it. Just objects.

So unless the mage is rich or understands how to make or even how to steal a nuke even pay off the right people i am sorry to say that its unlikely this will happen.

Well a Technowizard has the skills to make a nuke, not that he needs to. A Nuclear (Medium) LRM is 80,000CR on the open market, and i can literally walk into Ishpeming and buy one. Not that for the attack i was formulating, you need anything more than grenades, fusion blocks, or mines.

I also want to point out that Archie has no problem through tracking or detecting Splugorth

Im not sure what this has to do with anything. Giant Splugorth slaving ships aren't hard to track.

so i would assume if such people were to do such things it would be ferreted out NGR informants. So all of this would be a waste of time as the mage never reaches his destination going to pick up the bomb from the informant who arrests or kills the mage. It takes high tech in Rifts earth to have such a bomb. CS And NGR to name a few.

And Bandito Arms, Northern Gun, Triax Industries (who does sell LRM's on the open market), Free Quebec, Wellington Industries, and maybe even Golden Age Weaponsmiths. Again, though, you dont need LRM's to make this work. Fusion Blocks will do fine and are mass produced and freely available for about 8,000CR per heavy fusion block. Grenades would work well too.

Unless they want to go digging in Pre-Rifts missile silos then have to get the key to unlock or arm such a device even the pass codes that are long gone as Presidents or Prime Ministers ect are long dead with the access to even get a code.

Im not evne sure what this has to do with anything, really.

Subject of Sensor Spells. So you need a target area even a Area of Effect Spell. AOE. So unless you plan on blanketing the communication towers and the ship. You need to know how it works. So you can disable or deactivate them with magic. Otherwise it would be silly to just throw spells around on the off chance that would happen. You would run out of PPE. Lets not forget that someone would notice.

Someone has never read the spell Energy Sphere. PPE for even a middling mage, provided the GM isnt a d-nozzle, is nearly irrelevant. Never let me have Talisman if you want PPE to matter. Ever.

Im also not sure what this has to do with anything at all.

Fallowed by alarms unless you know where you are going and what to disable. Otherwise you are shooting in the dark. Power Armor and Robots will be coming at you from all directions. Why lets ignore logic or good judgement. Oh right the mage has all these spells, he would not waste on a suicide attack that will fail.

How is it a suicide attack? Let's assume your sneak-aboard mission is the one we're talking about (it isn't, but hey, ill indulge you). Im 100% invisible to enemy sensors of every kind. I make no noise of any kind. I Fly as the Eagle, fly up to the ship, land on the deck. I avoid bumping into people because im not a moron. I get down three or four decks, and arm the nuke. Invisibility: Superior fails, but Invisibility: Simple does NOT, so im still invisible to optics. Im still invisible to all non-optic sensors because of Invisibility to Sensors, and i make no noise of any kind from movement. I find an out of the way place and recast Invisibility: Superior just for shiggles, make my way back to the deck, and fly off.

A minute later, BOOM, a heavy nuclear warhead goes off, inflicting 2d4x100 to the internal deck structure of the ship, crippling it or destroying it, depending on what systems were affected and how.

At no point was I at serious risk. Nothing could see me, hear me, or detect me at any time. As long as i put the Nuke under a bunk or something where it wont be noticed for five minutes, they wont even know it is there until it explodes.

Ill be the first person to grant you that this wouldn't work on a CSN ship of any kind - Sea Dogs are all over the place. Theyll detect you with their psychic powers the moment you land, most likely (unless you are also a psychic and have Mask P.P.E., then they are just sorta pooched).

But everyone else? Not a lot they can do here, unless the entire ship and every hatch is on lockdown at all times.

Even if it is? Just attach the nuke to the hull at the waterline with a Carpet of Adhesion and leave. When the warhead blows a 40' hole through the ship and out the other side at the waterline, thall be all she wrote.

Why do you ask ? As great as magic is it does have limitations. As Does tech. So going around randomly casting spells that would disable a hand held device or Security Camera but Radar ? Its hooked into the ships main power supply. You the caster unless you have a powerful version of it will need more power to blanket out the entire system Or several castings.

Except that isn't how the spells work AT ALL. Nothing in the spells mention that it is harder for Invisibility to Sensors to fool a radar hooked up to a poweful reactor. Nothing.

So the person with all these spells would be great for espionage learning what goes on as a spy. When the time is right plant a bomb. Problem is that only humans will be on board. So they might or might not catch the mage. It depends on the escape plan.

It would cost more wealth than to just hire a thousands of gargoyles or persuade them to destroy such a thing.

Ah... yeah, sure it would.

Much easier than spending hundreds of thousands on spells

The only remotely expensive spell here is Invisibility: Superior, at 7th level. Everything else is 6th or lower. And you dont even need Invisibility: Superior to make it work - Invisibility: Simple + Invisibility to Sensors works just as well.

or millions

If i spend a million to sink a ship worth tens to hundreds of millions, it's an expense well worth it. And a lot of the expense (new spells) is a one-time expense. Now i can do it forever and ever.

even all that time or effort only to be eaten by a Demon or such a mad quest end in so many ways before they would even be able to carry it out. Explosives sure i could see that. Infiltration i could see that also as the person with a forged papers a uniform via the black market ect. Sneaking around a bit.

But just bluntly flying in and no one noticing ? Not to mention the act of planting the bomb would make the person visible.

Only if you are relying solely on Invisibility: Superior. Invisibility: Simple doesn't have these limitations, and Invisibility to Sensors covers up all the other limitations of Invis: Simple.

Nor that people might sense what they cannot see even normal people ?

Except that they cant, unless they are psychic and have those abilities.

Not to mention the personal sacrifice unless you plan on sneaking it aboard ? Also the question of does the person have spells to Make Sensors Not function ?

Yes, he does. Or, more simply put 'Sensors Dont Function on Me'. I covered them all above. Go read them.

Now ill actually re-iterate my original plan, that you've ignored three times now:

- Sit dozens of miles away.
- Get a visual on your target, either via remote viewing spells, psionics, or even just a good old fashioned telescope or binoculars, or remote video camera.
- Rig up your explosives (missile warhead, fusion blocks, mines, whatever) to detonate. Will probably require the Demolitions skill. Maybe Field Armorer or Weapons Engineer. Technowizard is best for doing this solo, but a party should be able to manage it.
- Cast Carpet of Adhesion on your pile of explosives
- Cast Teleport: Lesser on your pile of explosives, teleporting them onto the hull of the ship at the waterline. The Carpet will stick them to the hull AND prevent anyone from interfering with them, not that theyll have time - timer doesn't need to be set for longer than 15 seconds.
- Boom.

You have not exposed yourself to the enemy at all. You're miles away, underground in a cave for all it matters. There's nothing to trace back to you, just a giant hole in the hull where there wasnt one a few seconds ago. You cant back-trace a teleport. Im not out in the open for you to see me. Even if i AM out in the open, it's on a hilltop, under a camo net, in a trench and cover, looking through a telescope.

Then i just head into my fox hole and have a vodka while your ship sinks. Or your tank is destroyed. Or whatever.

[wyrmraker]

I believe I missed the previous thread. Which book is Invisibility to Sensors in?

[eliakon]

For kicks and giggles I will put the level and cost in credits to buy of some stealth and recon spells here

Lv.1 (5,000cr)
-Farseeing: Lets you see up to 2 miles away, and stacks with any other vision spell
-Nightvision: now I can see perfectly in the dark

Lv.2 (10,000cr)
-Chameleon: cheap, optical camouflage
-Infrared Vision: now I can see heat

Lv. 3 (20,000cr)
-Invisibility Simple: Invisibility, what more need be said

Lv. 4 (30,000cr)
-Astral Projection: I can look around from another dimension
-Shadow Meld: I cant be detected in a shadow except by IR
-Stealthwalk: I make NO noise walking

Lv. 5 (40,000cr)
-Aura of Death: oops, now I don't show up on thermals
-Erase Trail: Now I leave no physical traces of any kind
-Sense Traps and Mines: I will detect any boobytraps

Lv. 6 (70,000cr)
-Invisibility to Sensors: tech cant see me
-Time Slip: do stuff outside time

Lv. 7 (90,000)
-Invisibility: Superior: even more invisibilty
-Mystic Invisibility: now I cant be detected by magic or psionics
-Second Sight: now I can look through another persons eyes

Which, if for some reason you wanted to be the first on your block to collect the set, and got every one of these (many are redundant) it would cost a grand total of....670,000cr +/- any variations. Heck if they were all at the +200% level, it would cost ALMOST as much as a suit of power armor.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mercenary Adventures. It's "Combat Magic", for a special "COmbat Mage" OCC presented there, but it is stated that it is just combat-oriented plain old invocation spells that anyone can learn. Most of them are super mediocre, but a few are real gems (Invisibility to Sensors, Stealthwalk, Farseeing, Mystic Marksmanship, Quickstrike, Superhuman Agility, and the hillariously OP Fighting Spirit)

It was from his Artillery thread. It was getting far afield so i made a new thread.

I had never gone over them before, really, in depth, just browsed (after Ratty had mentioned them in his magic thread); and now i found another gem: Mystic Invisibility - which renders you immune to magic and psionic detection... and shields you from Psi-stalkers and Dog Boys. Holy Crapstains.

So put that on the stack to be completely undetectable. Immune to all sensors, make no noise, immune to visual detection, and immune to psionic and magic detection. Trolololulz.

[wyrmraker]

Goodness. I wonder if I can convince my HU GM to allow my TW to have some of these...

[Giant2005]

As should be proved by how the CS does it, though, technology isn't the answer. If it was, they wouldn't need Dog Boys to protect sensitive facilities from supernatural infiltration. They'd have tech to do it, and they dont.. because there isn't a good tech answer.

Just a minor correction, technology to detect the supernatural does exist, it is just technology that the C.S. hasn't had described within its plethora of books. The Republic of Japan has the SNARLS sensor system which is effectively a short-range, directed Dogboy.
No idea how that system would react to Invisibility to Sensors though, I could see valid arguments being made for it on both sides of the fence.

[eliakon]

Oh, I forgot a couple
Level 2
-Polarized Vision: now I never need fear a blinding flash again
Level 5
-Escape: A spell that can open any lock or door that bars the mages way (sorry Mr. Genescan lock)
Level 7 has
-Circle of Concealment: makes entire AREAS 'unseen'
-Sphere of Invisibility: Because every good spell needs a mass cast version
-X-Ray vision: because seeing through objects is fun

This is just stuff in the general, canon spells too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Actually the CS do have "Magic detectors" they're just not detailed. It was brought up in one of the more recent books that they're in possession, but it's mentioned in passing. I.E. no details what so ever on them. Just that they exist.

[eliakon]

Actually the CS do have "Magic detectors" they're just not detailed. It was brought up in one of the more recent books that they're in possession, but it's mentioned in passing. I.E. no details what so ever on them. Just that they exist.

Cool. Would you happen to know off hand what book? And where? (I will admit I am not an expert on all things fluff, especially for the CS)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Black Market. I do not remember where. I read the book pretty fast when I got it to write a review. It's in there somewhere. buried. As in one sentence. Maybe two.

[Commander]

My point is the failure of the operator to detect. People claim "whelp we are undetectable" Start Dancing then i would prove them wrong while GMing while they are dancing around automated gun emplacements one lands on a twig as the computer figures out something is there albit the -10 to strike penalty then fires. Guards or people unaware sure i can see that if no attention is being drawn to the person. If a person has reasonable suspicion they can try to detect. Some people cannot understand that yes the are invisible. They get all the benefits of it. But if some one is actively looking for them.

Now if they have man portable sensors or the like to power armor then quite likely the person using the spell will remain undetected as long as he or she is careful. it does not mean that the person invisible is unable to interact with physical objects. They still have to open doors ect. As long as its a Non Hostile action per see Superior Invisibility spell.

So using what i know from a popular video game it would be like active cloak only more powerful. You would need to be really up close to even attempt to make out the person. i would imagine that if the person not careful that another would be aware. People can see if they can detect the person who through clumsiness or sheer boldness like sneaking across a camp of Gargoyles.

Triax and the NGR gives a apt description of how it should be used Erin Tarn Pg.191-193 . Yet the Gargoyles have a sharp sense of smell so the blanket i am undetectable only apply if things do have the power to detect them. So this means that things with sharp hearing such as dog boys or those power armor or suits in places of little to no noise can hear you.

Bionic or cybernetic enhancements. You still can be tracked as if you leave a physical trail. So if you use the spell to crawl through a minefield make a bad roll and hit one guess what it still blows up. More proof that you can be detected or suspected but not have an actual location.

Creatures and people in advanced technology can have a chance to figure out or guess your location. They will not be sure. But however things like Robots do not have minds that are so easily fooled. People say oh i cannot be detected by motion detectors. Then you encounter a automated gun that has IR and Thermal Sensors. Not to mention a motion detector. So they send in the mage with his Invisibility spell. So he flys in rushing yet this is a device that cannot see the target yet motion appears. the Anomaly gets closer. The Computer figures its hostile being programmed to fire at things. So using this logic i would have to say no. It was the fault of the mage for being careless. Mage lands and what do you know he tries to deactivate the gun.

Computer says that hey dust. Then just shoots at it. Now if the mage did what the spell described sneaking over he would not be dead.

That goes for tech also. Using the Blanket" My spell allows me to do anything i want." Not exactly. Rifts is a place that has people robots and things that also can counter such magic or devices. My rule would be if it is not hooked up to a powerful computer or power supply good chances that the person has a chance to detect them.

So for everything in Rifts can be counter or things or people have special abilities or powers that let them do extraordinary things. Otherwise monsters and Demons would simply turn invisible all the time and no one would be able to fight them. Even Invisible some one with the right tech might be able to make out an outline.

Or they can hear you. Robots have pretty good hearing.

Natural sense of smell like dog boys would be negated. How ever they can sense them. This means that powers can give them an idea of where you are not exactly the location you are in. The sensors still see you its the operator or person who cannot. Nor can visual sensors. So unless a person is using a hand held motion detector then i am sorry to say that yes it can detect you if certain perimeters are met.

Computers and Robots think 1000 times faster that being said an unknown anomaly that is moving around as it might be confused so it will wait until it has the data that something is a target thus will fire at it. They have no minds to trick so the sensor spell would be good if it was one or two. A squad would be more difficult. So flying around or moving creates motion. As does stepping on a twig. Tripping over someone. Picking a lock or gaining entry to a door.

So someone with a camera can see it open just not right away nor at the time it happened. They would have to rewind and see how you gained entry much later.

Making them aware of your presence. You still get the benefits of the invisibility spell but now people are actively looking for you. If you are on a high tech ship it would narrow it down. NGR is a step above the CS so i do not think they would find you right away unless you make a mistake and people catch on.

So this tells me that people with tech with monsters and the like can see you the invisable person with special abilities and or unique powers. Power Armor, Robots and Unmanned Robots fall into that category. So this does not mean the person is not invisible for the time being he is not being detected via failure of the pilots to see them but see or hear sounds and some might get that uneasy feeling of being watched.

Thusly they can narrow it down using the suits or the robot or Borg can use its systems to narrow down things from a not so careful mage.

So you do leave footprints and the like. So food vanishing and supplies missing is a good sign.


Now as for the Disable Sensor Spell.

Do you have a target ? Do you know the location ? If the spell is not AOE then you will need to find it or have an idea. From the Glitter Boy right shoulder to the Security Camera. So again it really depends and comes down to the situation. Ideal for getting past locked doors or not being noticed.

So unless you have the blueprints or have information on what to use the spell on and just hit anything that looks like a sensor you will run dry of P.P.E. In no time.

[Shark_Force]

if your gun emplacements shoot at every noise, you're going to wind up shooting your own soldiers an awful lot.

also, several of those spells explicitly prevent noises from being noticed. even by sensors, no matter how strong. a motion detector is also a sensor. it will not detect people that cannot be detected by sensors, no matter how many times you insist that it will.

now, you can see that a door is opening, for example, and that is actually legitimately a pretty good way to get a rough location for an invisible person. you can also notice that something has been taken or placed in a different location (or simply is there but wasn't anywhere before, like the theoretical bomb being placed somewhere). but motion detectors won't do squat, in the situations described thermal won't do squat, and sound detection won't do squat either. whether you suspect a person is there or not, and whether your sensors are handheld or attached to an FTL-capable spaceship or the most powerful supercomputer in the world, it won't work (ironically, it may work for ARCHIE in particular simply because he has psychic powers that i'm too lazy to look up, but it would have nothing to do with whether he is a computer and everything to do with whether he has see the invisible... though mystic invisibility removes even that).

also, the invisibility superior spell is in fact very explicit about *not* leaving footprints.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Combat magic spell "Invis. to sensors"...I do not like the spell as it is.

The major point as I see it is the part when is a 'saving throw', being the reasons why it does get a ST.

As per the text so long as there is a Flesh&blood person looking at the output of a optical sensor it gets a ST otherwise it is blind. However, if I was the GM I would have it that that the sensor would have to be in physical contact with the operator. Therefore remote sensors would not get a Saving throw.

I personally find the text about the sensors getting a saving throw "at all" stupid cause the spell is not affecting the person they are effecting some mundane device. But I'm guessing the saving throw text was thrown in to cover Borg's eyes and to make it "Balanced for game play".

Androids....do not get a saving throw. Any special AI vs magic rules are negated by the need for an organic being for there to be a saving throw.

Unless IMO they are a magical artifact, or a transferred intelligence they will be blind to what is concealed.
--------------------

Actually the CS do have "Magic detectors" they're just not detailed. It was brought up in one of the more recent books that they're in possession, but it's mentioned in passing. I.E. no details what so ever on them. Just that they exist.

Yes, they are detailed in the RMB and RUE...they are called Dogboys.
------------------
About sounds....they are not perceived by any high tech sensors if made by someone covered by the Invs. to Sensors spell, and not being directly monitored by a F&B sentient.
-----------------
About sounds and Invis. Sup., SF has the right of it for the most part. Therefore will not add anything more to it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

edit:

- drew changed his post, rendering this one moot -

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

My point is the failure of the operator to detect.

Then you quite literally have no point. At no point is the operator relevant except for seeing someone who is ONLY covered by Invisibility to Sensors being spotted by OPTICS that are manned by an organic intelligent being. That's it. Otherwise, it isn't a failure of the operator the detect anything - the sensors quite literally Cannot detect you, no matter how good the operator is, because Magic.

People claim "whelp we are undetectable" Start Dancing then i would prove them wrong while GMing

this isn't your proving them wrong - this is you making up house rules to screw your players.

while they are dancing around automated gun emplacements one lands on a twig as the computer figures out something

Except Stealthwalk would make that absolutely noiseless, so the gun emplacement wouldn't have anything to detect. Seriously, if you're not going to read the material presented, then there's no point in anything you're saying.

is there albit the -10 to strike penalty then fires. Guards or people unaware sure i can see that if no attention is being drawn to the person. If a person has reasonable suspicion they can try to detect. Some people cannot understand that yes the are invisible. They get all the benefits of it. But if some one is actively looking for them.

If someone is actively looking for them, it STILL doesn't matter, because the spells dont have any provisions for "if someone is looking for you" - nothing. You're freaking invisible, noiseless, and can't be detected by sensors of any kind..

Now if they have man portable sensors or the like to power armor then quite likely the person using the spell will remain undetected as long as he or she is careful. it does not mean that the person invisible is unable to interact with physical objects. They still have to open doors ect. As long as its a Non Hostile action per see Superior Invisibility spell.

Or you could just use Invisibility: SImple, like i pointed out. Then it doesn't matter if you take hostile action, you're still invisible to optics and Invisibility to Sensors covers the rest.

So using what i know from a popular video game it would be like active cloak only more powerful.

Except that video games have nothing to do with this and it isn't anything like that at all.

You would need to be really up close to even attempt to make out the person.

Closeness has nothing to do with it. I could be within 1mm and unless i touch them they wont know im there. Im completely noiseless and undetectable. Period. Read the spells.

i would imagine that if the person not careful that another would be aware. People can see if they can detect the person who through clumsiness or sheer boldness like sneaking across a camp of Gargoyles.

This has nothing to do with anything. Unless the Gargoyle Mage had See the Invisible active and i wasn't using Mystic Invisibility, theyve got no better chance of detecting me either. Read the spells.

Triax and the NGR gives a apt description of how it should be used Erin Tarn Pg.191-193 . Yet the Gargoyles have a sharp sense of smell so the blanket i am undetectable only apply if things do have the power to detect them.

So this means that things with sharp hearing such as dog boys or those power armor or suits in places of little to no noise can hear you.

Except Stealthwalk makes you 100% silent. No noise. Of any kind. Noiseless.

Bionic or cybernetic enhancements. You still can be tracked as if you leave a physical trail.

But you dont. Read the spells

So if you use the spell to crawl through a minefield make a bad roll and hit one guess what it still blows up. More proof that you can be detected or suspected but not have an actual location.

That isn't proof of any kind of detection - it's proof that you are still solid and stepped on a mine. Detect Traps will get you through that neatly though.

Creatures and people in advanced technology can have a chance to figure out or guess your location.

No, they really dont. Read the spells

They will not be sure. But however things like Robots do not have minds that are so easily fooled. People say oh i cannot be detected by motion detectors. Then you encounter a automated gun that has IR and Thermal Sensors. Not to mention a motion detector. So they send in the mage with his Invisibility spell. So he flys in rushing yet this is a device that cannot see the target yet motion appears.

Except that none of that is true. Immune to motion detectors, IR, thermal sensors, UV sensors. All sensors. Read the spells

the Anomaly gets closer.

Except there is no anomaly. None. Because Magic.

The Computer figures its hostile being programmed to fire at things. So using this logic i would have to say no. It was the fault of the mage for being careless. Mage lands and what do you know he tries to deactivate the gun.

Computer says that hey dust. Then just shoots at it. Now if the mage did what the spell described sneaking over he would not be dead.

That goes for tech also. Using the Blanket" My spell allows me to do anything i want." Not exactly. Rifts is a place that has people robots and things that also can counter such magic or devices. My rule would be if it is not hooked up to a powerful computer or power supply good chances that the person has a chance to detect them.

So for everything in Rifts can be counter or things or people have special abilities or powers that let them do extraordinary things. Otherwise monsters and Demons would simply turn invisible all the time and no one would be able to fight them. Even Invisible some one with the right tech might be able to make out an outline.

Or they can hear you. Robots have pretty good hearing.

People (particularly the ones that have to deal with demons and the like) DID develop a defense system against these things... Dog Boys; others mutated to be able to counter these things - we call them Psi-stalkers.

Natural sense of smell like dog boys would be negated. How ever they can sense them.

No one said otherwise - except that there are spells and psionics that deal with that, too - (Mystic Invisibility and Mask PPE).

This means that powers can give them an idea of where you are not exactly the location you are in. The sensors still see you

Okay, im going to biggen this response so you can maybe get it through your head.

No, the sensors CANNOT STILL SEE YOU. YOU ARE IMMUNE TO THE SENSORS, PERIOD. THE OPERATOR DOESN'T FACTOR IN AT ALL EXCEPT ONE PORTION OF INVISIBILITY TO SENSORS, WHICH IS COMPLETELY AVOIDED BY SIMPLY BEING INVISIBLE WITH THE OTHER SPELLS. Read. The. Spells.

its the operator or person who cannot. Nor can visual sensors. So unless a person is using a hand held motion detector then i am sorry to say that yes it can detect you if certain perimeters are met.

Except it explicitly states that you're immune to motion detectors. Actually, two of them do (both Invisibility: Superior AND Invisibility to Sensors).

Computers and Robots think 1000 times faster that being said an unknown anomaly that is moving around as it might be confused so it will wait until it has the data that something is a target thus will fire at it. They have no minds to trick

Which doesn't matter, because that isn't how the spell(s) work at all. Read the spells. In fact, having no mind to trick means that they dont even gain the possible benefit of being able to see the character with optics since they aren't a living organic being. They just get to see nothing at all times.

so the sensor spell would be good if it was one or two. A squad would be more difficult. So flying around or moving creates motion. As does stepping on a twig.

Stealthwalk. You make no noise from movement, even breaking twigs or items that would normally clank when you move or bump into them. Read the spells

Tripping over someone. Picking a lock or gaining entry to a door.

So, dont be an idiot and trip over someone. You can see them, they cant see you. Avoiding them shouldn't be too rough. Wait to use a door until someone else goes through it. Or just cast a spell to open it (E pointed out a spell for that above) from a distance.

So someone with a camera can see it open just not right away nor at the time it happened. They would have to rewind and see how you gained entry much later.

Except that YOU'RE INVISIBLE. The Camera cant see you. IN. VIS. IBLE. Cannot be seen.

Making them aware of your presence. You still get the benefits of the invisibility spell but now people are actively looking for you. If you are on a high tech ship it would narrow it down. NGR is a step above the CS so i do not think they would find you right away unless you make a mistake and people catch on.

So this tells me that people with tech with monsters and the like can see you the invisable person with special abilities and or unique powers. Power Armor, Robots and Unmanned Robots fall into that category. So this does not mean the person is not invisible for the time being he is not being detected via failure of the pilots to see them but see or hear sounds and some might get that uneasy feeling of being watched.

Thusly they can narrow it down using the suits or the robot or Borg can use its systems to narrow down things from a not so careful mage.

So you do leave footprints and the like.

Except you dont leave footprints. Read the spells

So food vanishing and supplies missing is a good sign.

No one is going to hang around long enough to steal food.

Now as for the Disable Sensor Spell.

What spell is that? No one discussed such a spell. You're just kind of inventing it out of thin air as far as this conversation goes.

Do you have a target ? Do you know the location ? If the spell is not AOE then you will need to find it or have an idea. From the Glitter Boy right shoulder to the Security Camera. So again it really depends and comes down to the situation. Ideal for getting past locked doors or not being noticed.

So unless you have the blueprints or have information on what to use the spell on and just hit anything that looks like a sensor you will run dry of P.P.E. In no time.

Or i can just shut the entire Glitterboy down (there are spells that do that); not that that is what we're discussing.

I also notice this is the fourth time you've totally ignored the actual argument i was making.

[eliakon]

One thing that should be mentioned here is that this sort of thing is what magic was invented for. Magic shines in the areas of 'doing the impossible' Sneaking around? Use a mage. Assasinating a specific Target? Ditto. Need instant minions for something, or to need a few of the laws of physics violated? Yep you guessed it, get a mage. Now if you want to do tons of damage to lots of stuff? Get some tech, guns and missiles and poison gas, and nukes, and all that stuff.
Whatever you do though, don't assume that the different areas are equal and that they all balance out. They don't. Each area has its own specialties, and with in those specialties they are amazing.

[Commander]

My point is the failure of the operator to detect.

Then you quite literally have no point. At no point is the operator relevant except for seeing someone who is ONLY covered by Invisibility to Sensors being spotted by OPTICS that are manned by an organic intelligent being. That's it. Otherwise, it isn't a failure of the operator the detect anything - the sensors quite literally Cannot detect you, no matter how good the operator is, because Magic.

People claim "whelp we are undetectable" Start Dancing then i would prove them wrong while GMing

this isn't your proving them wrong - this is you making up house rules to screw your players.

while they are dancing around automated gun emplacements one lands on a twig as the computer figures out something

Except Stealthwalk would make that absolutely noiseless, so the gun emplacement wouldn't have anything to detect. Seriously, if you're not going to read the material presented, then there's no point in anything you're saying.

is there albit the -10 to strike penalty then fires. Guards or people unaware sure i can see that if no attention is being drawn to the person. If a person has reasonable suspicion they can try to detect. Some people cannot understand that yes the are invisible. They get all the benefits of it. But if some one is actively looking for them.

If someone is actively looking for them, it STILL doesn't matter, because the spells dont have any provisions for "if someone is looking for you" - nothing. You're freaking invisible, noiseless, and can't be detected by sensors of any kind..

Now if they have man portable sensors or the like to power armor then quite likely the person using the spell will remain undetected as long as he or she is careful. it does not mean that the person invisible is unable to interact with physical objects. They still have to open doors ect. As long as its a Non Hostile action per see Superior Invisibility spell.

Or you could just use Invisibility: SImple, like i pointed out. Then it doesn't matter if you take hostile action, you're still invisible to optics and Invisibility to Sensors covers the rest.

So using what i know from a popular video game it would be like active cloak only more powerful.

Except that video games have nothing to do with this and it isn't anything like that at all.

You would need to be really up close to even attempt to make out the person.

Closeness has nothing to do with it. I could be within 1mm and unless i touch them they wont know im there. Im completely noiseless and undetectable. Period. Read the spells.

i would imagine that if the person not careful that another would be aware. People can see if they can detect the person who through clumsiness or sheer boldness like sneaking across a camp of Gargoyles.

This has nothing to do with anything. Unless the Gargoyle Mage had See the Invisible active and i wasn't using Mystic Invisibility, theyve got no better chance of detecting me either. Read the spells.

Triax and the NGR gives a apt description of how it should be used Erin Tarn Pg.191-193 . Yet the Gargoyles have a sharp sense of smell so the blanket i am undetectable only apply if things do have the power to detect them.

So this means that things with sharp hearing such as dog boys or those power armor or suits in places of little to no noise can hear you.

Except Stealthwalk makes you 100% silent. No noise. Of any kind. Noiseless.

Bionic or cybernetic enhancements. You still can be tracked as if you leave a physical trail.

But you dont. Read the spells

So if you use the spell to crawl through a minefield make a bad roll and hit one guess what it still blows up. More proof that you can be detected or suspected but not have an actual location.

That isn't proof of any kind of detection - it's proof that you are still solid and stepped on a mine. Detect Traps will get you through that neatly though.

Creatures and people in advanced technology can have a chance to figure out or guess your location.

No, they really dont. Read the spells

They will not be sure. But however things like Robots do not have minds that are so easily fooled. People say oh i cannot be detected by motion detectors. Then you encounter a automated gun that has IR and Thermal Sensors. Not to mention a motion detector. So they send in the mage with his Invisibility spell. So he flys in rushing yet this is a device that cannot see the target yet motion appears.

Except that none of that is true. Immune to motion detectors, IR, thermal sensors, UV sensors. All sensors. Read the spells

the Anomaly gets closer.

Except there is no anomaly. None. Because Magic.

The Computer figures its hostile being programmed to fire at things. So using this logic i would have to say no. It was the fault of the mage for being careless. Mage lands and what do you know he tries to deactivate the gun.

Computer says that hey dust. Then just shoots at it. Now if the mage did what the spell described sneaking over he would not be dead.

That goes for tech also. Using the Blanket" My spell allows me to do anything i want." Not exactly. Rifts is a place that has people robots and things that also can counter such magic or devices. My rule would be if it is not hooked up to a powerful computer or power supply good chances that the person has a chance to detect them.

So for everything in Rifts can be counter or things or people have special abilities or powers that let them do extraordinary things. Otherwise monsters and Demons would simply turn invisible all the time and no one would be able to fight them. Even Invisible some one with the right tech might be able to make out an outline.

Or they can hear you. Robots have pretty good hearing.

People (particularly the ones that have to deal with demons and the like) DID develop a defense system against these things... Dog Boys; others mutated to be able to counter these things - we call them Psi-stalkers.

Natural sense of smell like dog boys would be negated. How ever they can sense them.

No one said otherwise - except that there are spells and psionics that deal with that, too - (Mystic Invisibility and Mask PPE).

This means that powers can give them an idea of where you are not exactly the location you are in. The sensors still see you

Okay, im going to biggen this response so you can maybe get it through your head.

No, the sensors CANNOT STILL SEE YOU. YOU ARE IMMUNE TO THE SENSORS, PERIOD. THE OPERATOR DOESN'T FACTOR IN AT ALL EXCEPT ONE PORTION OF INVISIBILITY TO SENSORS, WHICH IS COMPLETELY AVOIDED BY SIMPLY BEING INVISIBLE WITH THE OTHER SPELLS. Read. The. Spells.

its the operator or person who cannot. Nor can visual sensors. So unless a person is using a hand held motion detector then i am sorry to say that yes it can detect you if certain perimeters are met.

Except it explicitly states that you're immune to motion detectors. Actually, two of them do (both Invisibility: Superior AND Invisibility to Sensors).

Computers and Robots think 1000 times faster that being said an unknown anomaly that is moving around as it might be confused so it will wait until it has the data that something is a target thus will fire at it. They have no minds to trick

Which doesn't matter, because that isn't how the spell(s) work at all. Read the spells. In fact, having no mind to trick means that they dont even gain the possible benefit of being able to see the character with optics since they aren't a living organic being. They just get to see nothing at all times.

so the sensor spell would be good if it was one or two. A squad would be more difficult. So flying around or moving creates motion. As does stepping on a twig.

Stealthwalk. You make no noise from movement, even breaking twigs or items that would normally clank when you move or bump into them. Read the spells

Tripping over someone. Picking a lock or gaining entry to a door.

So, dont be an idiot and trip over someone. You can see them, they cant see you. Avoiding them shouldn't be too rough. Wait to use a door until someone else goes through it. Or just cast a spell to open it (E pointed out a spell for that above) from a distance.

So someone with a camera can see it open just not right away nor at the time it happened. They would have to rewind and see how you gained entry much later.

Except that YOU'RE INVISIBLE. The Camera cant see you. IN. VIS. IBLE. Cannot be seen.

Making them aware of your presence. You still get the benefits of the invisibility spell but now people are actively looking for you. If you are on a high tech ship it would narrow it down. NGR is a step above the CS so i do not think they would find you right away unless you make a mistake and people catch on.

So this tells me that people with tech with monsters and the like can see you the invisable person with special abilities and or unique powers. Power Armor, Robots and Unmanned Robots fall into that category. So this does not mean the person is not invisible for the time being he is not being detected via failure of the pilots to see them but see or hear sounds and some might get that uneasy feeling of being watched.

Thusly they can narrow it down using the suits or the robot or Borg can use its systems to narrow down things from a not so careful mage.

So you do leave footprints and the like.

Except you dont leave footprints. Read the spells

So food vanishing and supplies missing is a good sign.

No one is going to hang around long enough to steal food.

Now as for the Disable Sensor Spell.

What spell is that? No one discussed such a spell. You're just kind of inventing it out of thin air as far as this conversation goes.

Do you have a target ? Do you know the location ? If the spell is not AOE then you will need to find it or have an idea. From the Glitter Boy right shoulder to the Security Camera. So again it really depends and comes down to the situation. Ideal for getting past locked doors or not being noticed.

So unless you have the blueprints or have information on what to use the spell on and just hit anything that looks like a sensor you will run dry of P.P.E. In no time.

Or i can just shut the entire Glitterboy down (there are spells that do that); not that that is what we're discussing.

I also notice this is the fourth time you've totally ignored the actual argument i was making.

First of all Magic allows you to do some incredible things. If the invisable person hits a booby trap and its a a trip wire guess what Boom!. If its a laser and he breaks it Boom!.

You keep asserting this notion that you cannot be detected or noticed. I am here to say yes you can. No i do not screw my players but if they get cocky and get overconfident like you keep asserting here then yes i will use good judgment and not hold it against them.

So if the person bumps into people opens a door that can be seen ect they cannot see the person. Yet doors do not open on there own. Now legitimately if some one does these actions over and over again some one is going to end up suspecting it. Sure they CANNOT SEE THEM.

As for people pointing out sound. If the person turns up the sound from normal like in a robot or the like they can try to hear them. Regardless. Soon as you make a HOSTILE action invis drops and you are that rabbit on the freeway. Now please you are making my head hurt with your great assertions of what the spell is and what you ignored i am telling you.

Nothing is perfect. It just takes good judgment on the part of the GM. Your claims that you cannot be seen are valid but to not be detected as lets say someone's key card to get inside starts flying off is just absurd. I can think of three ways to detect some one who is Invisible should like a detective prove that this person is lurking about.

One Smoke. Person coughing. If you read the spell little sound is made yet you will need air so again you could be located in not an exact area. Gas ? unless they have M.D.C. Armor on with a full helmet. Hearing. If some one with reason could turn up the high tech sound to hear a blue bird on a robot or a bog they they might hear them. Sound is not much but opening a door now that makes sound ? Stepping on twigs ect.. Now your points would be valid on lets say a busy city. But out in the wilderness. Filter out sounds if its pretty quiet they might be aware of the person. And i say if..not likely. still a chance depending on a few factors.?

If an automated gun is set to fire when a person tries to open the door with out a valid id card then would you not get shot at just breaking in ? So they got past the other ones with motion detectors and IR sensors. I kinda think its lame they added the motion sensors also but no biggie.

Also you can be tracked by using the proper skills. You still leave physical foot prints and finger prints ect. So if it rained outside some one can track you to a general area to where the mud stops. They not see you but know some one is inside or if you crossed a river you still make muddy footprints. They cannot use Thermal Vision to track you. So apparently this tells me you do not understand the spell or how a person interacts with an environment nor what tracking involves in the real world.

You have assumed i have no point. My point has been that magic does not make you undetectable it makes you unseen. So it is you who legitimately jip people out of even having them being detected. If a player comes up with a way i will give it a listen. But nope the "Blanket All" I cannot be seen is invoked. Throw Rules at it and mage gets to be undetected in anyway. Not how palladium wrote it up. So look again.

Sorry but you should learn what compromise and what is possible this just tells me that yes the book is right but its not a matter of house rules its a matter for the GM to try to have an open mind. I am sorry but you seem very close minded. Not every rule or situation will require the same kind of ruling. Your players will be upset if it is not logical or has common sense to it thusly you cheat them out of out thinking the situation. I thought this was suppose to be a Fun game ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

--------------------

Actually the CS do have "Magic detectors" they're just not detailed. It was brought up in one of the more recent books that they're in possession, but it's mentioned in passing. I.E. no details what so ever on them. Just that they exist.

Yes, they are detailed in the RMB and RUE...they are called Dogboys.

In context it's implying that they're technological not biological, but you seem to be a bit hostile so, whatever

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

First of all Magic allows you to do some incredible things. If the invisable person hits a booby trap and its a a trip wire guess what Boom!.

Yes, because he is still physically present. A trip-wire is not a sensor.

If its a laser and he breaks it Boom!.

100% incorrect. Both Invisibility: Superior and Invisibility to Sensors make you immune to laser detection. Read. The. Spells.

You keep asserting this notion that you cannot be detected or noticed. I am here to say yes you can.

You saying it doesn't make it true. The spells say that You. Are. Wrong. Read. The. Spells.

No i do not screw my players but if they get cocky and get overconfident like you keep asserting here then yes i will use good judgment and not hold it against them.

Good judgement to you means totally ignoring the text of the spell and inventing your own rules without telling them ahead of time you have completely altered how those spells work?

So if the person bumps into people opens a door that can be seen ect they cannot see the person. Yet doors do not open on there own. Now legitimately if some one does these actions over and over again some one is going to end up suspecting it. Sure they CANNOT SEE THEM.

Or hear them, or detect them with sensors, or smell them, or anything.

As for people pointing out sound. If the person turns up the sound from normal like in a robot or the like they can try to hear them.

Except Stealthwalk makes you TOTALLY SILENT. As in... you MAKE. NO. SOUND. OF. ANY. KIND.

Regardless. Soon as you make a HOSTILE action invis drops and you are that rabbit on the freeway.

Invisibility: Simple does NOT drop when you make a hostile action. Neither does Invisibility to Sensors... or Stealthwalk. Or Mystic Invisibility. Only Invisibility: Superior suffers this drawback, and as we've already covered, having Invisibility to Sensors active, you only really need Invisibility: Simple to cover the rest. Read. The. Spells.

Now please you are making my head hurt with your great assertions of what the spell is and what you ignored i am telling you.

Im not ignoring you. I'm telling you, unequivocally, that You. Are. Wrong. I read what you wrote. None of it is correct. None of it has any resemblance to how the spells are actually written in the rulebooks in question. You're just making stuff up out of thin air.

Nothing is perfect. It just takes good judgment on the part of the GM. Your claims that you cannot be seen are valid but to not be detected as lets say someone's key card to get inside starts flying off is just absurd.

Except you dont need to do that. Eliakon already pointed out a handy, low level spell that will open doors (even locked ones) for you, from a distance.

I can think of three ways to detect some one who is Invisible should like a detective prove that this person is lurking about.

This should be rich.

One Smoke. Person coughing. If you read the spell little sound is made yet you will need air so again you could be located in not an exact area.

Breathe Without Air. Cheap, simple spell. Lasts forever. And you'd have to even suspect i was there, in the first place, to want to try this. Or are you just going to keep the place filled with smoke on the off chance that some totally invisible mage is going to sneak in (and hopefully not be wearing his standard-starting-equipment breath mask or using Breathe Without Air)?

Next?

Hearing. If some one with reason could turn up the high tech sound to hear a blue bird on a robot or a bog they they might hear them sound is not much but opening a door now that makes sound ? Stepping on twigs ect.. Now your points would be valid on lets say a busy city. But out in the wilderness. Filter out sounds if they are aware of the person. ANd i say if..not likely.?

Except that because of Stealthwalk. YOU. DO. NOT. MAKE. NOISE. . Zero noise. 0%. No matter how much you turn up the gain on the sound sensor.. it STILL CANT DETECT YOU BECAUSE amplifying nothing STILL GETS YOU NOTHING.

If an automated gun is set to fire when a person tries to open the door with out a valid id card then would you not get shot at ? So they got past the other ones with motion detectors and Ir sensors.

Except the door will open when im nowhere near it. The blast will go through (having only glanced at the spell, i dont even think the gun will fire - it doesn't "force" the door - it opens it as if you had the proper key).

You have assumed i have no point.

I've provided quotes from the books that PROVE you have no point. You've provided conjecture and house rules, and never once supported a single thin you've said with a source from the rulebooks. Not once.

My point has been that magic does not make you undetectable it makes you unseen.

Invisbility: SImple and Superior make you unseen. Invisibility to Sensors makes you IMMUNE to being detected by sensors. Ergo.. undetectable. Mystic Invisibility makes you immune to being detected with magic and psionics... ergo, undetectable. I quoted these spells, straight out of the rulebooks. ALl you've said is "nuh uh, you're wrong" with no sources to back up a single thing you've said.

So it is you who legitimately jip people out of even having them being detected.

No, im implementing the spells exactly as written in the rulebooks.

If a player comes up with a way i will give it a listen. But nope the "Blanket All" I cannot be seen is invoked. Throw Rules at it and mage gets to be undetected in anyway. Not how palladium wrote it up. So look again.

Not only did i look at it, i posted them for you to look at. It's not unclear. Phrases like "Immune to ALL means of being detected" are not vague. It's pretty simple. Immune. All. Very clear and concise.

Sorry but you should learn what compromise

Compromise what? Im just using the spells exactly as they are written. You're the one trying to claim they dont work that way even though they very obviously DO. Provide a source to back up your claims. Otherwise, you've got nothing to stand on.

and what is possible this just tells me that yes the book is right but its not a matter of house rules its a matter for the GM to try to have an open mind. I am sorry but you seem very close minded. Not every rule or situation will require the same kind of ruling. Your players will be upset if it is not logical or has common sense to it. I thought this was suppose to be a Fun game ?

I dont find it "fun" when the rules (spells are rules) change because the GM cant deal with something. If they change ahead of time (before the campaign starts) or the GM says "these spells dont exist in my game" - that's one thing. I, as a player, can respect that and understand it and plan around it. But to have a GM get outwitted by a player and then try to scramble to invent reasons that things that clearly work all of a sudden dont, isn't fun. If i out-think the GM, the response shouldn't be "you lose, because reasons".

it's the GM ruling by fiat, and that is about as fun as a hole in the head.

[Mack]

Please keep this discussion civil.

[eliakon]

How about an example?
Robb Rogers, the famed Refrigerator Raider decides that he wants to steal the last slice of chocolate cheesecake on the ship, and incidently the copy of the code frequencies for the week.

He is a lv6 Ocean Wizard.
His relevant skills are prowl, pick locks, R/W/S Euro
His releveant spells are: Invisibility: Simple, Stealthwalk, Sustain, Fly as an Eagle, Mystic Portal, Invisibility to Sensors, Detect Traps, Mystic Invisibility, Time Slip, Second Sight, Shadow Meld, Sonar Vision, Erase Trail, Escape and Astral Projection.

Last week he scouted the ship from the Astral Plane, so he knows the general layout. He decides tonight is the night, He buffs up with Ivisibility to Sensors, Invisibility Simple, Stealthwalk, Fly like an Eagle, and Detect Traps. He cast sustain yesterday.

He flies up to the ship, and from the waterline casts, silently, a mystic portal to get inside. The door in the #7 cargo room is locked, so he casts escape to unlock it. He then goes through the door (this is the one point he could be detected, if there is a camera of some sort watching the doors, it will see the door open on its own)

He then will walk through the halls, making sure not to bump into people. He can use escape on the locked door to the captains cabin as well as the locked refrigerator in the kitchen.

The only possible way I can see him being spotted is that the doors have to open, and that he can be seen by natural thermal vision (not cybernetics, it must be natural....which is fairly rare in the NGR). Besides that he is invisible, has no odor, makes no sound, has a better than 80% chance of detecting any booby-traps.

[Commander]

How about an example?
Robb Rogers, the famed Refrigerator Raider decides that he wants to steal the last slice of chocolate cheesecake on the ship, and incidently the copy of the code frequencies for the week.

He is a lv6 Ocean Wizard.
His relevant skills are prowl, pick locks, R/W/S Euro
His releveant spells are: Invisibility: Simple, Stealthwalk, Sustain, Fly as an Eagle, Mystic Portal, Invisibility to Sensors, Detect Traps, Mystic Invisibility, Time Slip, Second Sight, Shadow Meld, Sonar Vision, Erase Trail, Escape and Astral Projection.

Last week he scouted the ship from the Astral Plane, so he knows the general layout. He decides tonight is the night, He buffs up with Ivisibility to Sensors, Invisibility Simple, Stealthwalk, Fly like an Eagle, and Detect Traps. He cast sustain yesterday.

He flies up to the ship, and from the waterline casts, silently, a mystic portal to get inside. The door in the #7 cargo room is locked, so he casts escape to unlock it. He then goes through the door (this is the one point he could be detected, if there is a camera of some sort watching the doors, it will see the door open on its own)

He then will walk through the halls, making sure not to bump into people. He can use escape on the locked door to the captains cabin as well as the locked refrigerator in the kitchen.

The only possible way I can see him being spotted is that the doors have to open, and that he can be seen by natural thermal vision (not cybernetics, it must be natural....which is fairly rare in the NGR). Besides that he is invisible, has no odor, makes no sound, has a better than 80% chance of detecting any booby-traps.

So the NGR having a Battleship would have doors with security devices. Sure its defeatable with a spell. NGR is not exactly paranoid but if you read the ships description it does have troops posted at key locations. He could get away with it if he is careful as i assume a couple of sentry bots would be stationed at the captains door.

Hangar area would be quite busy as people would be moving about so no chance to be noticed unless he does something out in public view. Question is will he run into crew members or even little worker bots scurrying to the next task ? Worker bots are not a problem they just fix stuff.

So Robb will have to deal with the two bots at the door and the off chance if he is not careful that guard the captains quarters. Reasonable precautions during a time of war. A hidden camera watches the safe. A small hidden laser is to activate if the safe is broken into.

So if he goes the safe route gets inside the bots do not notice. He opens the safe and the laser activates. Sure he went for the refrigerator first. Using his detect traps spell he sees the laser yet it searches for a target. The two bots burst in so he will have to think quick. Will he get the codes or will he be clever using the laser to fire on the bots ? Or he could just eat the cake and leave as it is not worth the trouble of alerting the whole ship.

He does it to infuriate the captain.

[eliakon]

How about an example?
Robb Rogers, the famed Refrigerator Raider decides that he wants to steal the last slice of chocolate cheesecake on the ship, and incidently the copy of the code frequencies for the week.

He is a lv6 Ocean Wizard.
His relevant skills are prowl, pick locks, R/W/S Euro
His releveant spells are: Invisibility: Simple, Stealthwalk, Sustain, Fly as an Eagle, Mystic Portal, Invisibility to Sensors, Detect Traps, Mystic Invisibility, Time Slip, Second Sight, Shadow Meld, Sonar Vision, Erase Trail, Escape and Astral Projection.

Last week he scouted the ship from the Astral Plane, so he knows the general layout. He decides tonight is the night, He buffs up with Ivisibility to Sensors, Invisibility Simple, Stealthwalk, Fly like an Eagle, and Detect Traps. He cast sustain yesterday.

He flies up to the ship, and from the waterline casts, silently, a mystic portal to get inside. The door in the #7 cargo room is locked, so he casts escape to unlock it. He then goes through the door (this is the one point he could be detected, if there is a camera of some sort watching the doors, it will see the door open on its own)

He then will walk through the halls, making sure not to bump into people. He can use escape on the locked door to the captains cabin as well as the locked refrigerator in the kitchen.

The only possible way I can see him being spotted is that the doors have to open, and that he can be seen by natural thermal vision (not cybernetics, it must be natural....which is fairly rare in the NGR). Besides that he is invisible, has no odor, makes no sound, has a better than 80% chance of detecting any booby-traps.

So the NGR having a Warship would have doors with security devices. Sure its defeatable with a spell. NGR is not exactly paranoid but if you read the ships description it does have troops posted at key locations. He could get away with it if he is careful as i assume a couple of sentry bots would be stationed at the captains door.

Hangar area would be quite busy as people would be moving about so no chance to be noticed unless he does something out in public view. Question is will he run into crew members or even little worker bots scurrying to the next task ? Worker bots are not a problem they just fix stuff.

So robb will have to deal with the two bots at the door and the off chance if he is not careful that guard the captains quarters. Reasonable precautions during a time of war. A hidden camera watches the safe. A small hidden laser is to activate if the safe is broken into.

So if he goes the safe route gets inside the bots do not notice. He opens the safe and the laser activates. Sure he went for the refrigerator first. Using his detect traps spell he sees the laser yet it searches for a target. The two bots burst in so he will have to think quick. Will he get the codes or will he be clever using the laser to fire on the bots ?

Which actually helps balance this all out. Now instead of either a cake walk for Robb or a nerf fest for the spells....The mage gets to do their magic thing BUT they will have to also be clever to deal with the tricky bits, similarly the GM doesn't have to say 'okay your toast' nor 'okay you win' but gets to have some tight spots challenge the player

Its a little less balanced if the mage is just bent on destruction unfortunately, but its pretty hard to stop blanket violence anyway, be it from nukes, missile salvos, or crafty mages if a person really wants to destroy something, its pretty much destroyed unless it has plot armor.

[Commander]

How about an example?
Robb Rogers, the famed Refrigerator Raider decides that he wants to steal the last slice of chocolate cheesecake on the ship, and incidently the copy of the code frequencies for the week.

He is a lv6 Ocean Wizard.
His relevant skills are prowl, pick locks, R/W/S Euro
His releveant spells are: Invisibility: Simple, Stealthwalk, Sustain, Fly as an Eagle, Mystic Portal, Invisibility to Sensors, Detect Traps, Mystic Invisibility, Time Slip, Second Sight, Shadow Meld, Sonar Vision, Erase Trail, Escape and Astral Projection.

Last week he scouted the ship from the Astral Plane, so he knows the general layout. He decides tonight is the night, He buffs up with Ivisibility to Sensors, Invisibility Simple, Stealthwalk, Fly like an Eagle, and Detect Traps. He cast sustain yesterday.

He flies up to the ship, and from the waterline casts, silently, a mystic portal to get inside. The door in the #7 cargo room is locked, so he casts escape to unlock it. He then goes through the door (this is the one point he could be detected, if there is a camera of some sort watching the doors, it will see the door open on its own)

He then will walk through the halls, making sure not to bump into people. He can use escape on the locked door to the captains cabin as well as the locked refrigerator in the kitchen.

The only possible way I can see him being spotted is that the doors have to open, and that he can be seen by natural thermal vision (not cybernetics, it must be natural....which is fairly rare in the NGR). Besides that he is invisible, has no odor, makes no sound, has a better than 80% chance of detecting any booby-traps.

So the NGR having a Warship would have doors with security devices. Sure its defeatable with a spell. NGR is not exactly paranoid but if you read the ships description it does have troops posted at key locations. He could get away with it if he is careful as i assume a couple of sentry bots would be stationed at the captains door.

Hangar area would be quite busy as people would be moving about so no chance to be noticed unless he does something out in public view. Question is will he run into crew members or even little worker bots scurrying to the next task ? Worker bots are not a problem they just fix stuff.

So robb will have to deal with the two bots at the door and the off chance if he is not careful that guard the captains quarters. Reasonable precautions during a time of war. A hidden camera watches the safe. A small hidden laser is to activate if the safe is broken into.

So if he goes the safe route gets inside the bots do not notice. He opens the safe and the laser activates. Sure he went for the refrigerator first. Using his detect traps spell he sees the laser yet it searches for a target. The two bots burst in so he will have to think quick. Will he get the codes or will he be clever using the laser to fire on the bots ?

Which actually helps balance this all out. Now instead of either a cake walk for Robb or a nerf fest for the spells....The mage gets to do their magic thing BUT they will have to also be clever to deal with the tricky bits, similarly the GM doesn't have to say 'okay your toast' nor 'okay you win' but gets to have some tight spots challenge the player

Its a little less balanced if the mage is just bent on destruction unfortunately, but its pretty hard to stop blanket violence anyway, be it from nukes, missile salvos, or crafty mages if a person really wants to destroy something, its pretty much destroyed unless it has plot armor.

True but i find that Rping is about storytelling also. It lets people rp a story that is outlined by a GM. From backdrops like the Tolkeen conflict to just about anything you can imagine. Rifts is that place. The Warship could have a story of its own. Look at underseas. The US navy is still afloat.

Heck a fairy could come play pranks and lighten the troops mood on the ship. NGR is fighting impossible odds against legions of Gargoyles and pals. One fairy would be interesting encounter. So a squad of player chars could meet one and let it be a story on its own.

Or you could use the whole i need invis superior to have the PC mage go on a quest for it. A person to teach in not to mention what kind of payment they are willing to accept for it. So i imagine Robb had to pay for it or do some tasks for the person teaching the spell.

[guardiandashi]

I did have a characters ship that a lot of the invisibility arguments likely would not work against, but the character was a little paranoid ... ok a lot paranoid about people trying to sneak up and destroy her ship. the only thing is it was a starship so it a LOT harder to hide when there is nothing to mask you. the other thing was she wasn't as concerned about individuals sneaking up, but more concerned about cloaked ships an similar..

examples of some of the sensors used include full spectrum sensors and optics, tachyon detection grid with deployable "satellite" drones, neutrino detectors, gravfield traps, and there was a zero tolerance policy for cloaked (stealthed) ships within a radius around the ship, if it detected something it thought was a cloaked vessel within that radius and it was not positively id'd as friendly the ships computer would fire at it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I did have a characters ship that a lot of the invisibility arguments likely would not work against, but the character was a little paranoid ... ok a lot paranoid about people trying to sneak up and destroy her ship. the only thing is it was a starship so it a LOT harder to hide when there is nothing to mask you. the other thing was she wasn't as concerned about individuals sneaking up, but more concerned about cloaked ships an similar..

examples of some of the sensors used include full spectrum sensors and optics, tachyon detection grid with deployable "satellite" drones, neutrino detectors, gravfield traps, and there was a zero tolerance policy for cloaked (stealthed) ships within a radius around the ship, if it detected something it thought was a cloaked vessel within that radius and it was not positively id'd as friendly the ships computer would fire at it.

Unfortunately, as written, a vehicle TW converted with, or a person using Invisibility to Sensors and either basic Invisibility spell (Simple or Superior) would be immune to pretty much all of that. Only the optics (if manned by a real person) could see them through Invis to Sensors, and being plain-old Invisible makes you immune to optics.

Full spectrum sensors, tachyon detectors, neutrino detectors, etc, are all "sensors'. The spell makes you immune to them. Traps could possibly work, depending on how they were triggered (would have to be by touch) if the person didn't have some way to reliably detect and avoid them.

It's a pretty busted spell, as written. Combo'ed with other spells (Mystic Invisibility, Stealthwalk, Detect Traps, Sustain and a visual invisibility spell) it's nearly impossible to beat with the Rules as Written.

[Commander]

I did have a characters ship that a lot of the invisibility arguments likely would not work against, but the character was a little paranoid ... ok a lot paranoid about people trying to sneak up and destroy her ship. the only thing is it was a starship so it a LOT harder to hide when there is nothing to mask you. the other thing was she wasn't as concerned about individuals sneaking up, but more concerned about cloaked ships an similar..

examples of some of the sensors used include full spectrum sensors and optics, tachyon detection grid with deployable "satellite" drones, neutrino detectors, gravfield traps, and there was a zero tolerance policy for cloaked (stealthed) ships within a radius around the ship, if it detected something it thought was a cloaked vessel within that radius and it was not positively id'd as friendly the ships computer would fire at it.

Unfortunately, as written, a vehicle TW converted with, or a person using Invisibility to Sensors and either basic Invisibility spell (Simple or Superior) would be immune to pretty much all of that. Only the optics (if manned by a real person) could see them through Invis to Sensors, and being plain-old Invisible makes you immune to optics.

Full spectrum sensors, tachyon detectors, neutrino detectors, etc, are all "sensors'. The spell makes you immune to them. Traps could possibly work, depending on how they were triggered (would have to be by touch) if the person didn't have some way to reliably detect and avoid them.

It's a pretty busted spell, as written. Combo'ed with other spells (Mystic Invisibility, Stealthwalk, Detect Traps, Sustain and a visual invisibility spell) it's nearly impossible to beat with the Rules as Written.

Depending on the ship force fields can keep people out. You can target the space around them. I mean if just they are invis to sensor would that not not be flagged by an advanced computer like Archie or Phase World kind of ships ? What i mean it is the physical space they occupy. So if they open a door on the ship they might know that hey the locked door to Cargo deck three was opened.

Also oxygen or methane breathers unless they are wearing full EVA head gear would be detected. You cannot see the person but the space they occupy or interact with can be seen. They still have to interact with objects like normal. They still need to breathe so if they are not using head gear they pass the sensors will be able to detect them. Also movement. If you are moving too fast would that not break the invis as you are not exactly prowling ? Also if you take a hostile action you lose the spell.

Those with advanced tech could come up with Magic Detectors or Paint the space around the invis person using quantum mechanics even the Chaos Theory with a good computer or A.I. Sense of smell can also be used. As can hearing. Higher the tech better they are able to negate the penalty if the person is touching objects.

Finger prints. You can fallow them. The spell does not protect them from touching object or interactions with those objects. Unless they are wearing gloves or the like. People can still see it tech can fallow them but not target the area around them. So if you need to get a keycard and mess up someone would know that some person is trying to get into his or her pockets. They might stand for a moment looking around.

Another idea i had is using Flashbang tech or Boomgun sound even smoke or gas if they give themselves away. You cannot be tracked by sensors on your person. Yet it does not mean you cannot be tracked as you interact with the physical world still nor does it not mean that you will not leave a trail.

So Invis person running into laser beams that protect a door like bars or a force field will appear to be gone but is still trapped inside his cell or cannot get in/out thus injuring him or herself. Video Cameras do not see the person but will see them open the door. If you leave finger prints they could use a DNA scanner to fallow the trail. Just not the person themselves. Thermal imagers and the like nope but other modes yes as it is not detecting the person per se its the physical area around them or DNA or Physical Trail they left .

So i would say on a higher tech ship they could track the person to a General area but not give an exact location. Also you will need to see the sensor or have an idea of where its located to use the spells. Kinda useless on higher tech ships as they have hidden sensors all over.

I could see it being used on security cameras or If you are able to sneak into the Communications room and blind them that way. So if using the Quantum Mechanics way it would be a Black dot that the ships computer or supercomputer tracks as the more it interacts with physical objects the closer it would get to a solution on the area around the spell user.

Special Power Abilities Can also offset the Invs Superior person in some ways as they cannot visually see them but they with sharp hearing or smell defy the spell. Gargoyles for instance have all of these. Wolfen, Dogboys and other races that use smell or hearing more than eyesight. Lets not forget Psychics unless the mage can get around that.

Overall unless the mage is in another plane of existence he or she still must interact with the physical world. So if O2 levels in lets say the botanical gardens on a Space Cruiser start spiking as nothing but plants exist and all crew have been accounted for the computer can check for this. They will not detect the person inside just the fact that he is inside an area that no one is during that time.

Allot of scenarios and it just depends really on whats going on. What the mage is doing and Those who say that it applies to the invis person totally are misreading the spell. Its sensors that detect the person. Not the objects or DNA ect he leaves behind.

So if the mage is bleeding its a DNA trail that can be fallowed. Sensors. A good nose or just have them roll a tracking roll. The invis person still is unseen as are the effects on his or her person. So if they tossed bandages away it still means it can be tracked its not on them and they can go hide climb a tree to lose the perusers Ect.

[guardiandashi]

I did have a characters ship that a lot of the invisibility arguments likely would not work against, but the character was a little paranoid ... ok a lot paranoid about people trying to sneak up and destroy her ship. the only thing is it was a starship so it a LOT harder to hide when there is nothing to mask you. the other thing was she wasn't as concerned about individuals sneaking up, but more concerned about cloaked ships an similar..

examples of some of the sensors used include full spectrum sensors and optics, tachyon detection grid with deployable "satellite" drones, neutrino detectors, gravfield traps, and there was a zero tolerance policy for cloaked (stealthed) ships within a radius around the ship, if it detected something it thought was a cloaked vessel within that radius and it was not positively id'd as friendly the ships computer would fire at it.

Unfortunately, as written, a vehicle TW converted with, or a person using Invisibility to Sensors and either basic Invisibility spell (Simple or Superior) would be immune to pretty much all of that. Only the optics (if manned by a real person) could see them through Invis to Sensors, and being plain-old Invisible makes you immune to optics.

Full spectrum sensors, tachyon detectors, neutrino detectors, etc, are all "sensors'. The spell makes you immune to them. Traps could possibly work, depending on how they were triggered (would have to be by touch) if the person didn't have some way to reliably detect and avoid them.

It's a pretty busted spell, as written. Combo'ed with other spells (Mystic Invisibility, Stealthwalk, Detect Traps, Sustain and a visual invisibility spell) it's nearly impossible to beat with the Rules as Written.

Depending on the ship force fields can keep people out. You can target the space around them. I mean if just they are invis to sensor would that not not be flagged by an advanced computer like Archie or Phase World kind of ships ? What i mean it is the physical space they occupy. So if they open a door on the ship they might know that hey the locked door to Cargo deck three was opened.

Also oxygen or methane breathers unless they are wearing full EVA head gear would be detected. You cannot see the person but the space they occupy or interact with can be seen. They still have to interact with objects like normal. They still need to breathe so if they are not using head gear they pass the sensors will be able to detect them. Also movement. If you are moving too fast would that not break the invis as you are not exactly prowling ? Also if you take a hostile action you lose the spell.

Those with advanced tech could come up with Magic Detectors or Paint the space around the invis person using quantum mechanics even the Chaos Theory with a good computer or A.I. Sense of smell can also be used. As can hearing. Higher the tech better they are able to negate the penalty if the person is touching objects.

Finger prints. You can fallow them. The spell does not protect them from touching object or interactions with those objects. Unless they are wearing gloves or the like. People can still see it tech can fallow them but not target the area around them. So if you need to get a keycard and mess up someone would know that some person is trying to get into his or her pockets. They might stand for a moment looking around.

Another idea i had is using Flashbang tech or Boomgun sound even smoke or gas if they give themselves away. You cannot be tracked by sensors on your person. Yet it does not mean you cannot be tracked as you interact with the physical world still nor does it not mean that you will not leave a trail.

So Invis person running into laser beams that protect a door like bars or a force field will appear to be gone but is still trapped inside his cell or cannot get in/out thus injuring him or herself. Video Cameras do not see the person but will see them open the door. If you leave finger prints they could use a DNA scanner to fallow the trail. Just not the person themselves. Thermal imagers and the like nope but other modes yes as it is not detecting the person per se its the physical area around them or DNA or Physical Trail they left .

So i would say on a higher tech ship they could track the person to a General area but not give an exact location. Also you will need to see the sensor or have an idea of where its located to use the spells. Kinda useless on higher tech ships as they have hidden sensors all over.

I could see it being used on security cameras or If you are able to sneak into the Communications room and blind them that way. So if using the Quantum Mechanics way it would be a Black dot that the ships computer or supercomputer tracks as the more it interacts with physical objects the closer it would get to a solution on the area around the spell user.

Special Power Abilities Can also offset the Invs Superior person in some ways as they cannot visually see them but they with sharp hearing or smell defy the spell. Gargoyles for instance have all of these. Wolfen, Dogboys and other races that use smell or hearing more than eyesight. Lets not forget Psychics unless the mage can get around that.

Overall unless the mage is in another plane of existence he or she still must interact with the physical world. So if O2 levels in lets say the botanical gardens on a Space Cruiser start spiking as nothing but plants exist and all crew have been accounted for the computer can check for this. They will not detect the person inside just the fact that he is inside an area that no one is during that time.

Allot of scenarios and it just depends really on whats going on. What the mage is doing and Those who say that it applies to the invis person totally are misreading the spell. Its sensors that detect the person. Not the objects or DNA ect he leaves behind.

So if the mage is bleeding its a DNA trail that can be fallowed. Sensors. A good nose or just have them roll a tracking roll. The invis person still is unseen as are the effects on his or her person. So if they tossed bandages away it still means it can be tracked its not on them and they can go hide climb a tree to lose the perusers Ect.

I am just saying in my case I looked at the various cloaking (stealth) defeating technologies used in the dimensions the char had passed through and the character implemented multiples, the gravfield traps are actually crystal gravfield traps from star wars they basically detect minute changes in the mass curvature of the region, the tachyon detection grid is what was used in star trek to detect cloaked vessels in one of the sttng episodes, granted I am not entirely certain either would work against a ship using a phase cloak, but shrug... neutrino detectors detect the stray neutrinos from nuclear reactions such as normally occur in a fission or fusion reactor, and are almost impossible to stop. the reality is that "invisible to sensors" might work on a personal scale but is pretty broken, and IMO totally broken at "ship" levels

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I did have a characters ship that a lot of the invisibility arguments likely would not work against, but the character was a little paranoid ... ok a lot paranoid about people trying to sneak up and destroy her ship. the only thing is it was a starship so it a LOT harder to hide when there is nothing to mask you. the other thing was she wasn't as concerned about individuals sneaking up, but more concerned about cloaked ships an similar..

examples of some of the sensors used include full spectrum sensors and optics, tachyon detection grid with deployable "satellite" drones, neutrino detectors, gravfield traps, and there was a zero tolerance policy for cloaked (stealthed) ships within a radius around the ship, if it detected something it thought was a cloaked vessel within that radius and it was not positively id'd as friendly the ships computer would fire at it.

Unfortunately, as written, a vehicle TW converted with, or a person using Invisibility to Sensors and either basic Invisibility spell (Simple or Superior) would be immune to pretty much all of that. Only the optics (if manned by a real person) could see them through Invis to Sensors, and being plain-old Invisible makes you immune to optics.

Full spectrum sensors, tachyon detectors, neutrino detectors, etc, are all "sensors'. The spell makes you immune to them. Traps could possibly work, depending on how they were triggered (would have to be by touch) if the person didn't have some way to reliably detect and avoid them.

It's a pretty busted spell, as written. Combo'ed with other spells (Mystic Invisibility, Stealthwalk, Detect Traps, Sustain and a visual invisibility spell) it's nearly impossible to beat with the Rules as Written.

Depending on the ship force fields can keep people out. You can target the space around them. I mean if just they are invis to sensor would that not not be flagged by an advanced computer like Archie or Phase World kind of ships ? What i mean it is the physical space they occupy. So if they open a door on the ship they might know that hey the locked door to Cargo deck three was opened.

Sure, but you dont always have to open doors, as has been pointed out. Mystic Portals are great ways to get through solid walls.

Also oxygen or methane breathers unless they are wearing full EVA head gear would be detected.

Do you -ever- read what people write in previous posts? Sustain and/or Breathe Without Air.. both cause you not to need to breathe at all. not that it matters, since there are still SENSORS that are doing the detecting and you are IMMUNE to them. You're trying to behave like Invisibility to Sensors works like technology, where there's something that gets "missed" - like air moving around you or whatever - except it is MAGIC. It doesn't matter if the air moves around you, the sensors STILL WONT DETECT IT, because the spell says they wont.

You cannot see the person but the space they occupy or interact with can be seen. They still have to interact with objects like normal. They still need to breathe so if they are not using head gear they pass the sensors will be able to detect them.

No, Breathe Without Air or Sustains means you DONT have to breathe. At all. And even if they did, the SENSORS cannot detect them. Yeah, the CO2 is being expelled into the air when they breathe - but the sensors fail to detect it because of the magic. Both Breathe without Air and Sustain have been mentioned half a dozen times by myself AND other posters.

Also movement. If you are moving too fast would that not break the invis as you are not exactly prowling ?

No, there is nothing in either Invisibility Simple or Superior that states that it goes down no matter how fast you are going. Nothing at all.

Also if you take a hostile action you lose the spell.

Only Invisibility: Superior. I've mentioned no less than six times - Invisibility: SImple DOES NOT go down when you take a hostile action.

Those with advanced tech could come up with Magic Detectors or Paint the space around the invis person using quantum mechanics even the Chaos Theory with a good computer or A.I.

You can point me to the rules for those things? And "painting the space around the invis person using quantum mechanics" wouldn't work anyway - the device would have to rely on anamlous reading ("there is mass there where there shouldn't be) which WILL NOT BE PRODUCED because of Invisibility to Sensors.

Sense of smell can also be used

No, it cant. Invisibility: Superior makes you immune to sense of smell. Says so right in the spell. Scroll back up and read it.

. As can hearing.

For the seventh or eight or ninth time, now: Stealthwalk means you produce no sound from walking and moving around, even if you bump into objects, and invisibility: superior makes you nealry silent at all other times. So no, hearing wont work.

Higher the tech better they are able to negate the penalty if the person is touching objects.

Except you dont leave tracks or traces (Invisibility: Superior).

Finger prints. You can fallow them. The spell does not protect them from touching object or interactions with those objects. Unless they are wearing gloves or the like. People can still see it tech can fallow them but not target the area around them. So if you need to get a keycard and mess up someone would know that some person is trying to get into his or her pockets. They might stand for a moment looking around.

Except as we already covered you dont leave prints, and can open a door with a simple spell that Eliakon pointed out. Or use a mystic portal to simply move through the wall.

Another idea i had is using Flashbang tech or Boomgun sound even smoke or gas if they give themselves away. You cannot be tracked by sensors on your person. Yet it does not mean you cannot be tracked as you interact with the physical world still nor does it not mean that you will not leave a trail.

Except you dont leave tracks or traces. We already covered that. Try to keep up.

So Invis person running into laser beams that protect a door like bars or a force field will appear to be gone but is still trapped inside his cell or cannot get in/out thus injuring him or herself.

Impervious to Energy or Invulnerability will do you fine here, and those are spells pretty much every single magic user under the sun gets because of how insanely good they are.

Video Cameras do not see the person but will see them open the door. If you leave finger prints they could use a DNA scanner to fallow the trail.

A DNA scanner is a sensors. Immune to those, remember?

Just not the person themselves. Thermal imagers and the like nope but other modes yes as it is not detecting the person per se its the physical area around them or DNA or Physical Trail they left .

So i would say on a higher tech ship they could track the person to a General area but not give an exact location.

Also you will need to see the sensor or have an idea of where its located to use the spells.

.... what? No you dont. You cast the spells on yourself, not on the sensors. Have you read ANY of the spells in question?

Kinda useless on higher tech ships as they have hidden sensors all over.

Except that isn't how the spell works AT ALL. I quoted it above for you... seriously, go. read. the. spells.

I could see it being used on security cameras or If you are able to sneak into the Communications room and blind them that way. So if using the Quantum Mechanics way it would be a Black dot that the ships computer or supercomputer tracks as the more it interacts with physical objects the closer it would get to a solution on the area around the spell user.

Special Power Abilities Can also offset the Invs Superior person in some ways as they cannot visually see them but they with sharp hearing or smell defy the spell.

No they cant. Spell makes you immune to sense of smell (compeltely) and makes you almost totally silent. Stealthwalk makes you totally silent.

Gargoyles for instance have all of these. Wolfen, Dogboys and other races that use smell or hearing more than eyesight.

Which wont help them one iota.

Lets not forget Psychics unless the mage can get around that.

Only See the Invisible would help; it has an insanely short range, and Can be defeated with Mystic Invisibility completely, which, coincidentally, will also mask you from Psi-stalker/Psi-hound PPE sensing abilities.

Overall unless the mage is in another plane of existence he or she still must interact with the physical world. So if O2 levels in lets say the botanical gardens on a Space Cruiser start spiking as nothing but plants exist and all crew have been accounted for the computer can check for this. They will not detect the person inside just the fact that he is inside an area that no one is during that time.

Except they wont, because the oxygen levels wont read abnormal. Im not breathing. At all. Or even if i am, the sensors that would be detecting this unusual oxygen or CO2 spike (to give you some real-world advice here, one person in even a 20x20ft garden wouldn't produce enough CO2 to notice - we're talking infintely tiny numbers (parts per million) of CO2) are bamboozled by the magic.

And Eliakon and others have pointed out multiple ways to not have to interact with the physical world at all - bypass doors with mystic portals (that's pricy but doable) or even turning intangible.

Allot of scenarios and it just depends really on whats going on. What the mage is doing and Those who say that it applies to the invis person totally are misreading the spell.

... what are you talking about "we're misreading the spell" - here, ill quote them all AGAIN for you.

First Sentence: The spell caster and anything he is wearing or carrying at the time of the invocation are turned completely invisible.
Third Paragraph: While invisible, the mag can talk, weave spells, walk, climb, run, open doors, carry objects, and perform other acts of physical exertion, including combat, and remain invisible

A powerful incantation that makes the spell caster invisible to all means of detection. Ordinary vision, infrared, ultraviolet, other optics, heat, motion detectors, and even an animal's sense of smell, can NOT locate the invisible person. No footprints are made, and little sound (prowls at 84%). The Magic is broken only if the character makes a hostile move, or engages in combat/attacks. At that instant, he becomes completely visible. Note: The invisible character is not ethereal and can not walk through walls; he m ust still use a door. The act of forcing open a door or window, picking a lock, tapping somebody, accidentally bumping somebody, or accidentally getting shot or hurt is not considered an act of agression or combat, so invisibility is maintained.

(Note: No saving throw). The Stealthwalk spell does not conceal the physical presence of the caster, or footprints, but it does magically suppress any sound made by the enchanted individual while moving. The spells masks the sound of breathing, footfalls and climbing as well as well as muting the sound of equipment attached to or worn by the individual that might rustle, clunk or clatter, including body armor, weapons, etc.

Note: Saving Throw listed as "Special"
This spell Magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightivsion optics, motions sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared beams, etc, will not detect the character and thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as other magical or psionic viewing means.
There is no saving throw against this spell unless and organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggle's themselves.

And we'll add Mystic Invisibility to the mix, too.

(Note: No saving throw of any kind) An invocation that shields the caster from all forms of mystic detection. For the duration of the spell the caster remains totally undetectable by all magical and psionic means. Those creatures that rely on psionic or mystic sight or hearing are unable to detect the caster's presence, and for all intents and purposes, he is both silent and invisible. Furthermore, the caster will not be detected by the special abilities of beings such as Psi-stalker who are ntually able to detect the presence of magic, psionics, and supernatural beings. Similarly, the individual does not radiate any perceptible aura for the duration of the spell.

Now read through all the spells and notice what they have in common... the target is the Spellcaster, NOT the enemies or sensors or machines. They render the CASTER immune to these things, regardless of who is looking at him or how they are looking at him, except as noted, and using them in concert neatly covers up the few downfalls. (Invisibility to Sensors renders you immune to anything but manned optical detection and magic/psionic detect - Invisibility: Simple renders you immune to manned optical detection; Mystic Invisibility renders you immune to magic and psionic detection forms, including Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers, leaving ONLY sound as a potential means to detect you; Invisbility: Superior makes you almost totally silent, and Stealthwalk covers up the last little remaining sound you make.

No one other than you is misreading them. You've consistently INSISTED that somehow the spells have to be able to be cast on/affect the sensors... when it is quite clear that is NOT how the spells function

[Commander]

I did have a characters ship that a lot of the invisibility arguments likely would not work against, but the character was a little paranoid ... ok a lot paranoid about people trying to sneak up and destroy her ship. the only thing is it was a starship so it a LOT harder to hide when there is nothing to mask you. the other thing was she wasn't as concerned about individuals sneaking up, but more concerned about cloaked ships an similar..

examples of some of the sensors used include full spectrum sensors and optics, tachyon detection grid with deployable "satellite" drones, neutrino detectors, gravfield traps, and there was a zero tolerance policy for cloaked (stealthed) ships within a radius around the ship, if it detected something it thought was a cloaked vessel within that radius and it was not positively id'd as friendly the ships computer would fire at it.

Unfortunately, as written, a vehicle TW converted with, or a person using Invisibility to Sensors and either basic Invisibility spell (Simple or Superior) would be immune to pretty much all of that. Only the optics (if manned by a real person) could see them through Invis to Sensors, and being plain-old Invisible makes you immune to optics.

Full spectrum sensors, tachyon detectors, neutrino detectors, etc, are all "sensors'. The spell makes you immune to them. Traps could possibly work, depending on how they were triggered (would have to be by touch) if the person didn't have some way to reliably detect and avoid them.

It's a pretty busted spell, as written. Combo'ed with other spells (Mystic Invisibility, Stealthwalk, Detect Traps, Sustain and a visual invisibility spell) it's nearly impossible to beat with the Rules as Written.

Depending on the ship force fields can keep people out. You can target the space around them. I mean if just they are invis to sensor would that not not be flagged by an advanced computer like Archie or Phase World kind of ships ? What i mean it is the physical space they occupy. So if they open a door on the ship they might know that hey the locked door to Cargo deck three was opened.

Sure, but you dont always have to open doors, as has been pointed out. Mystic Portals are great ways to get through solid walls.

Also oxygen or methane breathers unless they are wearing full EVA head gear would be detected.

Do you -ever- read what people write in previous posts? Sustain and/or Breathe Without Air.. both cause you not to need to breathe at all. not that it matters, since there are still SENSORS that are doing the detecting and you are IMMUNE to them. You're trying to behave like Invisibility to Sensors works like technology, where there's something that gets "missed" - like air moving around you or whatever - except it is MAGIC. It doesn't matter if the air moves around you, the sensors STILL WONT DETECT IT, because the spell says they wont.

You cannot see the person but the space they occupy or interact with can be seen. They still have to interact with objects like normal. They still need to breathe so if they are not using head gear they pass the sensors will be able to detect them.

No, Breathe Without Air or Sustains means you DONT have to breathe. At all. And even if they did, the SENSORS cannot detect them. Yeah, the CO2 is being expelled into the air when they breathe - but the sensors fail to detect it because of the magic. Both Breathe without Air and Sustain have been mentioned half a dozen times by myself AND other posters.

Also movement. If you are moving too fast would that not break the invis as you are not exactly prowling ?

No, there is nothing in either Invisibility Simple or Superior that states that it goes down no matter how fast you are going. Nothing at all.

Also if you take a hostile action you lose the spell.

Only Invisibility: Superior. I've mentioned no less than six times - Invisibility: SImple DOES NOT go down when you take a hostile action.

Those with advanced tech could come up with Magic Detectors or Paint the space around the invis person using quantum mechanics even the Chaos Theory with a good computer or A.I.

You can point me to the rules for those things? And "painting the space around the invis person using quantum mechanics" wouldn't work anyway - the device would have to rely on anamlous reading ("there is mass there where there shouldn't be) which WILL NOT BE PRODUCED because of Invisibility to Sensors.

Sense of smell can also be used

No, it cant. Invisibility: Superior makes you immune to sense of smell. Says so right in the spell. Scroll back up and read it.

. As can hearing.

For the seventh or eight or ninth time, now: Stealthwalk means you produce no sound from walking and moving around, even if you bump into objects, and invisibility: superior makes you nealry silent at all other times. So no, hearing wont work.

Higher the tech better they are able to negate the penalty if the person is touching objects.

Except you dont leave tracks or traces (Invisibility: Superior).

Finger prints. You can fallow them. The spell does not protect them from touching object or interactions with those objects. Unless they are wearing gloves or the like. People can still see it tech can fallow them but not target the area around them. So if you need to get a keycard and mess up someone would know that some person is trying to get into his or her pockets. They might stand for a moment looking around.

Except as we already covered you dont leave prints, and can open a door with a simple spell that Eliakon pointed out. Or use a mystic portal to simply move through the wall.

Another idea i had is using Flashbang tech or Boomgun sound even smoke or gas if they give themselves away. You cannot be tracked by sensors on your person. Yet it does not mean you cannot be tracked as you interact with the physical world still nor does it not mean that you will not leave a trail.

Except you dont leave tracks or traces. We already covered that. Try to keep up.

So Invis person running into laser beams that protect a door like bars or a force field will appear to be gone but is still trapped inside his cell or cannot get in/out thus injuring him or herself.

Impervious to Energy or Invulnerability will do you fine here, and those are spells pretty much every single magic user under the sun gets because of how insanely good they are.

Video Cameras do not see the person but will see them open the door. If you leave finger prints they could use a DNA scanner to fallow the trail.

A DNA scanner is a sensors. Immune to those, remember?

Just not the person themselves. Thermal imagers and the like nope but other modes yes as it is not detecting the person per se its the physical area around them or DNA or Physical Trail they left .

So i would say on a higher tech ship they could track the person to a General area but not give an exact location.

Also you will need to see the sensor or have an idea of where its located to use the spells.

.... what? No you dont. You cast the spells on yourself, not on the sensors. Have you read ANY of the spells in question?

Kinda useless on higher tech ships as they have hidden sensors all over.

Except that isn't how the spell works AT ALL. I quoted it above for you... seriously, go. read. the. spells.

I could see it being used on security cameras or If you are able to sneak into the Communications room and blind them that way. So if using the Quantum Mechanics way it would be a Black dot that the ships computer or supercomputer tracks as the more it interacts with physical objects the closer it would get to a solution on the area around the spell user.

Special Power Abilities Can also offset the Invs Superior person in some ways as they cannot visually see them but they with sharp hearing or smell defy the spell.

No they cant. Spell makes you immune to sense of smell (compeltely) and makes you almost totally silent. Stealthwalk makes you totally silent.

Gargoyles for instance have all of these. Wolfen, Dogboys and other races that use smell or hearing more than eyesight.

Which wont help them one iota.

Lets not forget Psychics unless the mage can get around that.

Only See the Invisible would help; it has an insanely short range, and Can be defeated with Mystic Invisibility completely, which, coincidentally, will also mask you from Psi-stalker/Psi-hound PPE sensing abilities.

Overall unless the mage is in another plane of existence he or she still must interact with the physical world. So if O2 levels in lets say the botanical gardens on a Space Cruiser start spiking as nothing but plants exist and all crew have been accounted for the computer can check for this. They will not detect the person inside just the fact that he is inside an area that no one is during that time.

Except they wont, because the oxygen levels wont read abnormal. Im not breathing. At all. Or even if i am, the sensors that would be detecting this unusual oxygen or CO2 spike (to give you some real-world advice here, one person in even a 20x20ft garden wouldn't produce enough CO2 to notice - we're talking infintely tiny numbers (parts per million) of CO2) are bamboozled by the magic.

And Eliakon and others have pointed out multiple ways to not have to interact with the physical world at all - bypass doors with mystic portals (that's pricy but doable) or even turning intangible.

Allot of scenarios and it just depends really on whats going on. What the mage is doing and Those who say that it applies to the invis person totally are misreading the spell.

... what are you talking about "we're misreading the spell" - here, ill quote them all AGAIN for you.

First Sentence: The spell caster and anything he is wearing or carrying at the time of the invocation are turned completely invisible.
Third Paragraph: While invisible, the mag can talk, weave spells, walk, climb, run, open doors, carry objects, and perform other acts of physical exertion, including combat, and remain invisible

A powerful incantation that makes the spell caster invisible to all means of detection. Ordinary vision, infrared, ultraviolet, other optics, heat, motion detectors, and even an animal's sense of smell, can NOT locate the invisible person. No footprints are made, and little sound (prowls at 84%). The Magic is broken only if the character makes a hostile move, or engages in combat/attacks. At that instant, he becomes completely visible. Note: The invisible character is not ethereal and can not walk through walls; he m ust still use a door. The act of forcing open a door or window, picking a lock, tapping somebody, accidentally bumping somebody, or accidentally getting shot or hurt is not considered an act of agression or combat, so invisibility is maintained.

(Note: No saving throw). The Stealthwalk spell does not conceal the physical presence of the caster, or footprints, but it does magically suppress any sound made by the enchanted individual while moving. The spells masks the sound of breathing, footfalls and climbing as well as well as muting the sound of equipment attached to or worn by the individual that might rustle, clunk or clatter, including body armor, weapons, etc.

Note: Saving Throw listed as "Special"
This spell Magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightivsion optics, motions sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared beams, etc, will not detect the character and thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as other magical or psionic viewing means.
There is no saving throw against this spell unless and organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggle's themselves.

And we'll add Mystic Invisibility to the mix, too.

(Note: No saving throw of any kind) An invocation that shields the caster from all forms of mystic detection. For the duration of the spell the caster remains totally undetectable by all magical and psionic means. Those creatures that rely on psionic or mystic sight or hearing are unable to detect the caster's presence, and for all intents and purposes, he is both silent and invisible. Furthermore, the caster will not be detected by the special abilities of beings such as Psi-stalker who are ntually able to detect the presence of magic, psionics, and supernatural beings. Similarly, the individual does not radiate any perceptible aura for the duration of the spell.

Now read through all the spells and notice what they have in common... the target is the Spellcaster, NOT the enemies or sensors or machines. They render the CASTER immune to these things, regardless of who is looking at him or how they are looking at him, except as noted, and using them in concert neatly covers up the few downfalls. (Invisibility to Sensors renders you immune to anything but manned optical detection and magic/psionic detect - Invisibility: Simple renders you immune to manned optical detection; Mystic Invisibility renders you immune to magic and psionic detection forms, including Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers, leaving ONLY sound as a potential means to detect you; Invisbility: Superior makes you almost totally silent, and Stealthwalk covers up the last little remaining sound you make.

No one other than you is misreading them. You've consistently INSISTED that somehow the spells have to be able to be cast on/affect the sensors... when it is quite clear that is NOT how the spells function

You cannot cast a spell unless you have a target. So if you are going to run around casting spells randomly on the off chance the spell will hit a sensor good luck on high tech ships. You still have yet to explain how the mage knows where they all are. Simply put again you will run out of PPE before the ship will run out of sensors.

You still have a physical part regardless as the INVIS SUPERIOR pertains to just you and one other. Meaning you still need to interact like a Ghost in the physical world. Other spells help but again if some one sees his pal drop as you clonk him over the head guess what you become visible If you steal a tool and they see the wrench float off thats reasonable suspicion. They cannot see you and you have not attacked.. You can cut the ambient sounds and just listen for footsteps. An intelligent computer can do the same. So again the caster needs the spells. Again you refuse to have an open mind.

Rifts has Batman tech so yes some one could trace your DNA just not the exact location you are in. Nor does it render you not invisible. They cannot see you. You keep insisting that i ignored the spell. If you keep insisting that the spells are god like and no defense or they cannot be detected or suspected.

then i will keep insisting you need to look up how sensors work and the spells. Spells of Legend and other high powered spells i could see that. YOU NEED A TARGET! irregardless.

Example to use Disable Sensors you could cast it on every wall roof door ect you see guess what its a target. Magic spells need a target even if its a AOE doing a Dr Demento does not target a sensor or person. Sensors need a target. Spells need a target. Walls doors, Power Armor Cameras then you can define the radius of the spell area if its AOE.

Its like shooting a rocket and expecting it to be a heat seeking missle! Or Hitting an entire area. AOE works different thus blanketing or covering an area it tells you how far it goes. You need a target like Mass Invis allowing you to target people an area. So I still do not get why motion detectors on a ship not the handheld ones or power armor would not detect motion or the computer would.

Operator cannot see you on passive devices like IR ect. Radar sure but motion detectors ? Then you take in account that just INVIS Superior gives a 80% prowl. Sorry but you need to be prowling not talking or dancing ect. If you are Not prowling or the like then you can be heard like normal. Just good old common sense and Judgement.

None of the spells you mention allows you to enter another dimension. Shadow Melding or Spells that allow you to enter another dimension or pass through walls still need a target. Going Astral Plane is dangerous for a mage. So you would need to be close or near the target.

Theory is all good and all but when it comes down to being implemented in a game and a PC is doing things its up to the GM to make them think instead of a free pass. I reward inventive players and people who think outside the box. Another idea that comes to mind is a paint bomb on a suspected invis person.

Its plausible.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Now read through all the spells and notice what they have in common... the target is the Spellcaster, NOT the enemies or sensors or machines. They render the CASTER immune to these things, regardless of who is looking at him or how they are looking at him, except as noted, and using them in concert neatly covers up the few downfalls. (Invisibility to Sensors renders you immune to anything but manned optical detection and magic/psionic detect - Invisibility: Simple renders you immune to manned optical detection; Mystic Invisibility renders you immune to magic and psionic detection forms, including Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers, leaving ONLY sound as a potential means to detect you; Invisbility: Superior makes you almost totally silent, and Stealthwalk covers up the last little remaining sound you make.

No one other than you is misreading them. You've consistently INSISTED that somehow the spells have to be able to be cast on/affect the sensors... when it is quite clear that is NOT how the spells function

You cannot cast a spell unless you have a target. So if you are going to run around casting spells randomly on the off chance the spell will hit a sensor good luck on high tech ships. You still have yet to explain how the mage knows where they all are. Simply put again you will run out of PPE before the ship will run out of sensors.

BECAUSE THE SPELLS. DO NOT. TARGET. THE. SENSORS. THE SPELLCASTER. HIMSELF. IS. THE. TARGET.

seriously, it's been stated HALF A DOZEN TIMES. The spells DO NOT work like you are trying to say they work. They target THE SPELLCASTER HIMSELF.

You still have a physical part regardless as the INVIS SUPERIOR pertains to just you and one other.

.... what? go read the spell. That IS NOT how it works!

You can cut the ambient sounds and just listen for footsteps. An intelligent computer can do the same. So again the caster needs the spells. Again you refuse to have an open mind.

Stealthwalk MAKES YOU TOTALLY SILENT.

Rifts has batman tech so yes some one could trace your DNA just not the exact location you are in. If you keep insisting that the spells are god like and no defense then i will keep insisting you need to look up how sensors work.

Example to use Disable Sensors

Except NO ONE IN THIS THREAD HAS EVEN DISCUSSED THIS SPELL. We're talking about Invisbility to Sensors. Which i quoted above. GO READ IT.

you could cast it on every wall roof door ect you see guess what its a target. Magic spells need a target unless its a AOE. Sensors need a target so unless the spell states that its AOE it needs a target to be cast on.

All of the Invisibility/stealth spells i listed (and QUOTED FOR YOU TO READ) above TARGET. THE. SPELLCASTER. THEY DO NOT. TARGET. SENSORS.

What part of that are you not getting?

Its like shooting a rocket and expecting it to be a heat seeking missle!. AOE works different thus blanketing or covering an area. You need a target like Mass Invis allowing you to target several people or an area.

Nothing you've said here makes any sense. It's nothing like that AT ALL.

READ. THE. SPELLS.

[Commander]

Now read through all the spells and notice what they have in common... the target is the Spellcaster, NOT the enemies or sensors or machines. They render the CASTER immune to these things, regardless of who is looking at him or how they are looking at him, except as noted, and using them in concert neatly covers up the few downfalls. (Invisibility to Sensors renders you immune to anything but manned optical detection and magic/psionic detect - Invisibility: Simple renders you immune to manned optical detection; Mystic Invisibility renders you immune to magic and psionic detection forms, including Dog Boys and Psi Stalkers, leaving ONLY sound as a potential means to detect you; Invisbility: Superior makes you almost totally silent, and Stealthwalk covers up the last little remaining sound you make.

No one other than you is misreading them. You've consistently INSISTED that somehow the spells have to be able to be cast on/affect the sensors... when it is quite clear that is NOT how the spells function

You cannot cast a spell unless you have a target. So if you are going to run around casting spells randomly on the off chance the spell will hit a sensor good luck on high tech ships. You still have yet to explain how the mage knows where they all are. Simply put again you will run out of PPE before the ship will run out of sensors.

BECAUSE THE SPELLS. DO NOT. TARGET. THE. SENSORS. THE SPELLCASTER. HIMSELF. IS. THE. TARGET.

seriously, it's been stated HALF A DOZEN TIMES. The spells DO NOT work like you are trying to say they work. They target THE SPELLCASTER HIMSELF.

You still have a physical part regardless as the INVIS SUPERIOR pertains to just you and one other.

.... what? go read the spell. That IS NOT how it works!

You can cut the ambient sounds and just listen for footsteps. An intelligent computer can do the same. So again the caster needs the spells. Again you refuse to have an open mind.

Stealthwalk MAKES YOU TOTALLY SILENT.

Rifts has batman tech so yes some one could trace your DNA just not the exact location you are in. If you keep insisting that the spells are god like and no defense then i will keep insisting you need to look up how sensors work.

Example to use Disable Sensors

Except NO ONE IN THIS THREAD HAS EVEN DISCUSSED THIS SPELL. We're talking about Invisbility to Sensors. Which i quoted above. GO READ IT.

you could cast it on every wall roof door ect you see guess what its a target. Magic spells need a target unless its a AOE. Sensors need a target so unless the spell states that its AOE it needs a target to be cast on.

All of the Invisibility/stealth spells i listed (and QUOTED FOR YOU TO READ) above TARGET. THE. SPELLCASTER. THEY DO NOT. TARGET. SENSORS.

What part of that are you not getting?

Its like shooting a rocket and expecting it to be a heat seeking missle!. AOE works different thus blanketing or covering an area. You need a target like Mass Invis allowing you to target several people or an area.

Nothing you've said here makes any sense. It's nothing like that AT ALL.

READ. THE. SPELLS.

Right so whats the radius on it and it does not make you invisible you need another spell for that and any hostile action drops invis yep totally undefeatable. You can still be tracked you still can be fallowed regarless you keep saying the same thing i can work around that all day. Please sir you are just getting all worked up and not listening. Being a ******* is still being a *******. So unless the spell fallows him or does it stay in one area. Even SO YOU STILL CAN BE TRACKED DOWN! YOU ARE APART OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD.

Now its you who have been so insistent that you cannot be tracked fallowed you need to read tracking skill and use your mind. RIFTS IS A PLACE THAT ANYTHING CAN BE PLAUSIBLE! Psychics can still sense you and you can be tracked by Dog boys or wolfen by touching leaves or stepping on twigs. Inside buildings its a bit harder but you still make foot prints. I am not speaking about thermal or IR you really need to look up this stuff.

Do me a favor and look up the sensors and how hunters track people. Then your argument will fail and you have yet to say. Ya know that guy might be right. INVIS superior affects only that person and one other but the things he can touch or can be seen meaning you steal some guys apple in plain sight. He cant see you but apples do not vanish. So the only person here defeating you is you.

My over all point has been you cannot be seen sure you add some other spells into the mix but are you in the Astral plane ? or moving through dimensional doors nope. You are just plain old you and they cannot see you. The sensor spell as soon as you leave guess what the sensors are still active. You did not destroy them. Only sure way to deactivate all sensors is by cutting the power or taking out the sensor operators and equipment. They simply move out of the area. Its also another way to track you if areas go dead. Yep you are untrackable or not noticed.*Mocking him*

Hey guys did you see sector G Go out ? Yes so did Sector H..really ? Yes we sent the guards down. Did they see anyone ? No but they think some one is in the area with spells. So a Mage ? Yes. Let me call the PSi-Stalker And Dog Boy Detachment.

Dog boys and Psi stalker arrive. The Dog boys sniff out the mage and sense him. Yep they can track even a regular person with the tracking skill can track. Dog boys have a DNA sniffer so they can fallow your trail. High tech DNA sensor can do the same so while they are looking for you on the other Hand NGR would find you when the sensors go out and they step outside the spell radius.

Gee they cannot see you but they know you are there. Humm...


So NGR warship the sensors go out and guess what that does not happen on an active warship. means something is wrong but wait its moving!. They box in the mage who has no recourse but to leave or use another spell. He might escape so fly as the eagle cannot be tracked. So it drops the prowl why ? If you read prowl skill you have to be sneaking around. INVIS Superior allows him to remain hidden doing no hostile action. Oh yes planting a bomb is a hostile action. So you are visable. So mage flys off leaving the NGR alone as he could not pick the locks or has the right spells to do it yet.

Act of planting a bomb makes him seen. Thus mage gets shot if he drops it on the upper deck unless he or she is careful. You still need to open doors. You still need to talk walk fly ect. You need to interact with Physical objects. So unless the mage plans on blowing up the in ship in one shot. Opening a Rift or making people aware of his presence then those spells are good in places or situations that people are not suspecting things to happen. So power armor suit goes into mages sensor area well he is invisible does not detect him why ? Mage is hiding prowling not moving and in the wilderness or its some outlying base.

Also why would the mage get himself killed when its so much easier to arrange a distraction. You might get away with sensors going out if a base took damage. No one suspects a think up until they cannot get any readings from the sensors in question. Just walking into a military base with invis superior and Deactivate Sensors will be a signal flag unless you do it right as joe the tech gets send down to see whats wrong. Nothings wrong with them they just do not work.

NGR would be a little bit more on high alert than that. So if you move around chances are they will hit the alarm. Meaning the base is locked down. Or the ship. If they just use Invis superior on such a ship ok they cant see you. Nor can the sensors. I never understand why people make claims they know that can be defeated or countered then get upset when you show them it can happen .

[cornholioprime]

Hey guys did you see sector G Go out ? Yes so did Sector H..really ? Yes we sent the guards down. Did they see anyone ? No but they think some one is in the area with spells. So a Mage ? Yes. Let me call the PSi-Stalker And Dog Boy Detachment.

INVIS superior affects only that person and one other but the things he can touch or can be seen meaning you steal some guys apple in plain sight. He cant see you but apples do not vanish.

Only sure way to deactivate all sensors is by cutting the power or taking out the sensor operators and equipment. They simply move out of the area. Its also another way to track you if areas go dead. Yep you are untrackable or not noticed.

Finger prints. You can fallow them. The spell does not protect them from touching object or interactions with those objects.

Video Cameras do not see the person but will see them open the door.

With all due respect, Commander, many/most of your examples of "exceptions" to the various Invisibility spells pointed out to you by others, aren't "exceptions" in any sense of the word.

Your use of arguments such as (paraphrased) "Well, your Invisibility Spell isn't going to work if the guard looks over there and sees a glass of beer being being emptied" or "What if the invisible character klonks an enemy on the head right in the middle of the platoon formation while everybody is looking right at the soldier being hit" isn't actually providing evidence that the spells listed don't work.

Invisibility Spells are only designed to make you invisible to X, Y, and Z per their descriptors -and each and every spell that has been thus far listed to you in this Thread by those arguing with you work PERFECTLY as described.

Please, please, PLEASE, stop making counter-arguments based on things that the spells AREN'T designed to work against (e.g., trying to argue that "Invisibility: Superior" doesn't work just because a guard might be looking at the door opening by itself and thereby deduce that an invisible character opened it), and deal with the spells as others here have been repeatedly explaining to you, often using the very text itself.

Detecting the secondary, visible effects of a solid object as it interacts with the physical world around is NOT an effective argument against how well or poorly a given non-detection/invisibility spell works.

[Commander]

Hey guys did you see sector G Go out ? Yes so did Sector H..really ? Yes we sent the guards down. Did they see anyone ? No but they think some one is in the area with spells. So a Mage ? Yes. Let me call the PSi-Stalker And Dog Boy Detachment.

INVIS superior affects only that person and one other but the things he can touch or can be seen meaning you steal some guys apple in plain sight. He cant see you but apples do not vanish.

Only sure way to deactivate all sensors is by cutting the power or taking out the sensor operators and equipment. They simply move out of the area. Its also another way to track you if areas go dead. Yep you are untrackable or not noticed.

Finger prints. You can fallow them. The spell does not protect them from touching object or interactions with those objects.

Video Cameras do not see the person but will see them open the door.

With all due respect, Commander, many/most of your examples of "exceptions" to the various Invisibility spells pointed out to you by others, aren't "exceptions" in any sense of the word.

Your use of arguments such as (paraphrased) "Well, your Invisibility Spell isn't going to work if the guard looks over there and sees a glass of beer being being emptied" or "What if the invisible character klonks an enemy on the head right in the middle of the platoon formation while everybody is looking right at the soldier being hit" isn't actually providing evidence that the spells listed don't work.

Invisibility Spells are only designed to make you invisible to X, Y, and Z per their descriptors -and each and every spell that has been thus far listed to you in this Thread by those arguing with you work PERFECTLY as described.

Please, please, PLEASE, stop making counter-arguments based on things that the spells AREN'T designed to work against (e.g., trying to argue that "Invisibility: Superior" doesn't work just because a guard might be looking at the door opening by itself and thereby deduce that an invisible character opened it), and deal with the spells as others here have been repeatedly explaining to you, often using the very text itself.

Detecting the secondary, visible effects of a solid object as it interacts with the physical world around is NOT an effective argument against how well or poorly a given non-detection/invisibility spell works.

Hey all i ask is people read the books and think about it instead of coming at me jack booted. Some one made a claim they could not be detected. I provided the info to track him down. Spells do not last forever. Not every situation is going to have the same results. Yet not letting a PC think up a clever way to detect an invisible person just tells me that some want to be close minded.

It really depends on many factors. Yet when you issue a challenge stating that you cannot be tracked or detected i tend to challenge that school of thought saying oh really ? Given the RUE and Rifts main book of old were written so no one power dominated over another.

Each has a equal chance of giving a player the tools to overcome and adapt. Possibilities are endless. Too many what if ? So it boils down to what the NPC or PC is doing. Just throwing it out the window tell me people really are jiping others out of a reasonable chance while GMing.

Challenge is not to crush the PCs but to challenge them. Same goes for the NPCs. If a person has a good reason to suspect things then they can. If you read each power spell and skill you will see that Prowl is a skill. Even if magic gives it to you the act of flying or speaking drops it. You are not prowling as described in the book.

People are missing what i am stating here if you give a person a reason to suspect then yes i can see that. Still its valid argument and if you are tossing it out then you are really ignoring how the rules work as they are written with the whole picture not just one part. Every power differs and a person has a reasonable chance of detecting or fighting another.

Prowl is a skill even given by magic. Read the description of prowling. Flying talking ect is not prowling nor is dancing. Pg 309 RUE Tracking skill. Prowl pg. 317 RUE or Pg 66 of the DMG Pg 212 RUE or 112 BOM Invisibility Superior. Lore Magic Pg. 325 RUE

[eliakon]

Yes, secondary effects can be seen/detected. The prime mover of those effects still is undetected.
The door would open, and that opening would be seen. The person opening it though is still undetectable.
The box would seem to move on its own. Etc.
The sensor would see Ensign Expendable just fine, it just cant see Robb Rogers because...he is invisible to sensors.
The door in fact would have to have a manual way of opening for Robb to open it, because the automatic sensor that normally opens it....can't see him

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Right so whats the radius on it

There isn't one, because it TARGETS. THE. CASTER. It doesn't matter if there is a guy standing next to me with a heat sensor or a satellite is trying to scan me from orbit.. if im Invisible to Sensors, then NEITHER of them can see me.

and it does not make you invisible you need another spell

Yes, Invisbility: Simple. Invisbility: Superior will work, too. I mean, it's not like i've mentioned that NINE OR TEN TIMES already or anything. That's the whole point of this - using spells in combination. They aren't even that expensive.

for that and any hostile action drops invis yep totally undefeatable.

Except.... let's try this again... INVISIBILITY: SIMPLE DOES NOT GO AWAY WHEN YOU TAKE A HOSTILE ACTION. Only Invisibility: Superior does. With Simple Invisibility, you REMAIN visually invisible even after you attack. There is no reason of any kind you can't have both active at once (to gain the additional benefits of Invis: Superior, like not leaving trace).

You can still be tracked

Except you don't leave tracks. Read Invisibility: Superior.

you still can be fallowed

By WHAT? Nothing can see you, hear you, detect you with ANY sensors, or by magic or psionics. How are they going to follow you when they have absolutely no idea where you are or that you are even present?

regarless you keep saying the same thing i can work around that all day. Please sir you are just getting all worked up and not listening. Being a ******* is still being a *******. So unless the spell fallows him or does it stay in one area. Even SO YOU STILL CAN BE TRACKED DOWN! YOU ARE APART OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD.

At this point, it is clear you're deliberately trolling. The EXACT TEXT of these spells has been provided for you THREE TIMES to read. The spells DO. NOT. TARGET. AN. AREA. THEY. TARGET. THE. CASTER.


Do you get that? It doesn't matter if 2 million people are looking for you. You're invisible to ALL of them. It doesn't matter if four hundred million sensors are looking for you. YOU'RE IMMUNE TO ALL OF THEM. That is how the spell works. It says so in plain english. GO READ IT.

Now its you who have been so insistent that you cannot be tracked fallowed you need to read tracking skill

I have. Ill go ahead and quote it here for you, though.

Visual tracking is the identification of tracks, and following the path of men, cyborgs, robots, and animals by the signs they leave on the ground and vegetation. Tracking is a precise art, requiring much practice. The skill includes the evaluation of tracks, indicating wether the subhect being tracked is loaded down with equipment, running, moving slowly (by measuring the space between steps), and so on. - snipped here, as the remainder is simply what kind of information you can get from Tracking, and has no information about how you track

Notice - "is the identification of tracks, and following the path of men, cyborgs, robots and animals by the signs they leave on the ground and vegetation".

... Invisibility: Superior states plain as day you dont leave tracks. So, in the WILDERNESS, yes, i'd grant that you could still be tracked (by other trailsign like broken branches, disturbed animals, etc) but inside a facility? Nada.

and use your mind. RIFTS IS A PLACE THAT ANYTHING CAN BE PLAUSIBLE!

Except you've provided no skill, no rule, and no material of any kind to back up what you're saying. None. I've provided dozens of references to the rulebooks that prove you wrong.

Psychics can still sense you

Except Mystic Invisibility makes you immune to psychic detection and tracking. Go read the spell.

and you can be tracked by Dog boys

Nope - Mystic Invisibility also makes you immune to the natural abilities of Dog Boys and Psi-stalkers. You dont even appear to radiate magic.

or wolfen

Wolfen have no particular special ability to track that isn't tied to scent and therefore defeated by Invisibility: Superior.

by touching leaves or stepping on twigs

Ahem. STEALTHWALK MAKES IT SO YOU DONT MAKE NOISE EVEN BY STEPPING ON TWIGS OR BUMPING INTO THINGS. So no, you actually do NOT make noise.

Inside buildings its a bit harder but you still make foot prints.

But you DON'T still make footprints. Lets try this again:

A powerful incantation that makes the spell caster invisible to all means of detection. Ordinary vision, infrared, ultraviolet, other optics, heat, motion detectors, and even an animal's sense of smell, can NOT locate the invisible person. No footprints are made, and little sound (prowls at 84%). The Magic is broken only if the character makes a hostile move, or engages in combat/attacks. At that instant, he becomes completely visible. Note: The invisible character is not ethereal and can not walk through walls; he m ust still use a door. The act of forcing open a door or window, picking a lock, tapping somebody, accidentally bumping somebody, or accidentally getting shot or hurt is not considered an act of agression or combat, so invisibility is maintained.

I am not speaking about thermal or IR you really need to look up this stuff.

I wasn't either. Not only have i absolutely looked this stuff up.. I HAVE NOW POSTED IT FOR YOU TO READ IN THIS THREAD FOUR TIMES.

Do me a favor and look up the sensors and how hunters track people. Then your argument will fail and you have yet to say.

Now you're just adding things that were never being discussed again. We werent talking about outside - where i've already admitted that yes, you can track someone who doesn't leave footprints by other trailsign. (It might surprise you to know that im actually a decent tracker because of my years of outdoorsey stuff and SCA and LARP events). We were never discussing that, though, we were discussing a facility or ship.

Ya know that guy might be right. INVIS superior affects only that person and one other

No it doesn't. It affects EVERYONE. There could be a MILLION PEOPLE staring at the spot where the invisible guy is, and NONE OF THEM WILL SEE HIM.

but the things he can touch or can be seen meaning you steal some guys apple in plain sight. He cant see you but apples do not vanish. So the only person here defeating you is you.

My over all point has been you cannot be seen sure you add some other spells into the mix but are you in the Astral plane ?

Mystic Invisibility would easily prevent you from being seen by Astral travel - magic or psionic, since it protects you from ANY means of psionic or magical detection.

or moving through dimensional doors nope. You are just plain old you and they cannot see you. The sensor spell as soon as you leave guess what the sensors are still active. You did not destroy them.

Great for the sensors! Since they never saw me and i accomplished my goals and left.. why do i give a hoot if they are still active or not? Answer: i dont. So hurray for them! They're still active! They still couldn't see me.

Only sure way to deactivate all sensors is by cutting the power or taking out the sensor operators and equipment. They simply move out of the area. Its also another way to track you if areas go dead. Yep you are untrackable or not noticed.*Mocking him*

Except... i dont need to disable the sensors. They cant see me. I can just leave them, and not deactivate them... and continue on, unhindered by their presence in any way.

Hey guys did you see sector G Go out ? Yes so did Sector H..really ? Yes we sent the guards down. Did they see anyone ? No but they think some one is in the area with spells. So a Mage ? Yes. Let me call the PSi-Stalker And Dog Boy Detachment.

Dog boys and Psi stalker arrive. The Dog boys sniff out the mage and sense him.

Except they sense absolutely nothing thanks to Mystic Invisibility. I quoted that one above, too. You should give it a read. It specifically says Dog Boys and Psi-stalkers cant use their powers to find magic to find you or track you.

Yep they can track even a regular person with the tracking skill can track. Dog boys have a DNA sniffer so they can fallow your trail.

Dog boys do not have a DNA sniffer....

High tech DNA sensor can do the same so while they are looking for you on the other Hand NGR would find you when the sensors go out and they step outside the spell radius.

Except, as you seem to be incapable of understanding.. the spell has no 'radius'. None. It doesn't matter how far away the sensor is - it still cant detect you. Because YOU, the target of the spell, are INVISIBLE to all SENSORS.

Gee they cannot see you but they know you are there. Humm...


So NGR warship the sensors go out

But they don't go out. They work fine on everything EXCEPT the mage. They dont even see him.

and guess what that does not happen on an active warship. means something is wrong but wait its moving!. They box in the mage who has no recourse but to leave or use another spell. He might escape so fly as the eagle cannot be tracked. So it drops the prowl why ? If you read prowl skill you have to be sneaking around. INVIS Superior allows him to remain hidden doing no hostile action. Oh yes planting a bomb is a hostile action. So you are visable.

Or, you could also simply have Invisibility: Simple active at the same time, which means you would NOT become visible after comitting a hostile action. . As has been pointed out to you about half a dozen times now.

So mage flys off leaving the NGR alone as he could not pick the locks or has the right spells to do it yet.

Act of planting a bomb makes him seen.

Except, you know, we've covered how this IS NOT TRUE about ten times now.

Thus mage gets shot if he drops it on the upper deck unless he or she is careful. You still need to open doors. You still need to talk walk fly ect. You need to interact with Physical objects. So unless the mage plans on blowing up the in ship in one shot.

It isn't hard to blow a hole in the hull big enough to sink it, without having to deplete all of the MDC. Not that this is relevant - ive been on active-duty naval vessels - if the ship is under weigh, the top three or four decks are going to have the hatches open and unlocked, because people going about their duties dont have time to stop and code open every door. Depending on the type of ship, significantly more than just the top three or four decks. Not that any of this matters. Just put the bomb on the outer hull at the waterline.

Opening a Rift or making people aware of his presence then those spells are good in places or situations that people are not suspecting things to happen. So power armor suit goes into mages sensor area well he is invisible does not detect him why ? Mage is hiding prowling not moving and in the wilderness or its some outlying base.

Or i could be walking 1mm behind and he STILL wouldn't detect me. I can even RUN. Says so right in the spells.

Also why would the mage get himself killed

Well since the enemy quite literally has no way to detect him, the risk of him getting killed unless he is monumentally stupid is pretty low.

when its so much easier to arrange a distraction. You might get away with sensors going out if a base took damage. No one suspects a think up until they cannot get any readings from the sensors in question. Just walking into a military base with invis superior and Deactivate Sensors

What is this "Deactivate Sensors" thing you're spewing on about? We're talking about INVISIBILITY TO SENSORS. I Quoted the entire text of the spell above... twice. GO READ IT.

will be a signal flag unless you do it right as joe the tech gets send down to see whats wrong. Nothings wrong with them they just do not work.

Except.. that isn't how the spell works AT ALL. THe sensors work just fine.. i'm simply immune to them. They detect everyone and everything else just fine. Just not me.

NGR would be a little bit more on high alert than that. So if you move around chances are they will hit the alarm. Meaning the base is locked down. Or the ship. If they just use Invis superior on such a ship ok they cant see you. Nor can the sensors. I never understand why people make claims they know that can be defeated or countered then get upset when you show them it can happen .

Except you didn't. Your own statements have proven you aren't even talking about the same thing we're talking about. You rambled on about some spell that deactivates sensors, when, quite literally, NO ONE ELSE WAS TALKING ABOUT A SPELL LIKE THAT. We were talking about a spell called Invisibility To Sensors, which, you guessed it, makes YOU, the caster, INVISIBLE to sensors.

I quoted the text of ALL of the relevant spells other than Breathe without Air/Sustain above.. some of them two, or even three times! You didn't even read them, which is plainly obvious because you keep stating limitations for the spells that simply DONT EXIST, which you would KNOW if you had READ THEM.

At this point, i can only assume you're deliberately trolling.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Here, ill repost JUST the spells, for the fourth and in some cases fifth time, so you can maybe get a grasp on what we're even talking about.

If you're not going to read them, and respond according to WHAT THE SPELLS ACTUALLY SAY, don't bother. Ill just assume youre trolling, report it as such, and add you to my ignore list.

First Sentence: The spell caster and anything he is wearing or carrying at the time of the invocation are turned completely invisible.
Third Paragraph: While invisible, the mag can talk, weave spells, walk, climb, run, open doors, carry objects, and perform other acts of physical exertion, including combat, and remain invisible

A powerful incantation that makes the spell caster invisible to all means of detection. Ordinary vision, infrared, ultraviolet, other optics, heat, motion detectors, and even an animal's sense of smell, can NOT locate the invisible person. No footprints are made, and little sound (prowls at 84%). The Magic is broken only if the character makes a hostile move, or engages in combat/attacks. At that instant, he becomes completely visible. Note: The invisible character is not ethereal and can not walk through walls; he m ust still use a door. The act of forcing open a door or window, picking a lock, tapping somebody, accidentally bumping somebody, or accidentally getting shot or hurt is not considered an act of agression or combat, so invisibility is maintained.

(Note: No saving throw). The Stealthwalk spell does not conceal the physical presence of the caster, or footprints, but it does magically suppress any sound made by the enchanted individual while moving. The spells masks the sound of breathing, footfalls and climbing as well as well as muting the sound of equipment attached to or worn by the individual that might rustle, clunk or clatter, including body armor, weapons, etc.

Note: Saving Throw listed as "Special"
This spell Magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightivsion optics, motions sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared beams, etc, will not detect the character and thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as other magical or psionic viewing means.
There is no saving throw against this spell unless and organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggle's themselves.

(Note: No saving throw of any kind) An invocation that shields the caster from all forms of mystic detection. For the duration of the spell the caster remains totally undetectable by all magical and psionic means. Those creatures that rely on psionic or mystic sight or hearing are unable to detect the caster's presence, and for all intents and purposes, he is both silent and invisible. Furthermore, the caster will not be detected by the special abilities of beings such as Psi-stalker who are ntually able to detect the presence of magic, psionics, and supernatural beings. Similarly, the individual does not radiate any perceptible aura for the duration of the spell.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

We'll add a few of the others that were discussed, so we can all be on the same page:

This invocation enables the character to function normally without air, wether it be underwater, or in a vacuum, or in an area with little or no oxygen. - snipped the rest as it deals only with magic toxins still working on you-

The escape invocation enables the mage to magically escape any bonds, or open any locking mechanism that bars his way. This includes being tied with rope handcuffs, prison cells, doors, trunks locks, straightjackets, etc.

A concealment magic that utterly erases any physical signs left by the spell caster's passage. For the duration of the spell, the individual leaves no footprints, no broken vegetation, no scuff or wet marks, or even a scen trail, making it impossible to track him or tell if he has gone that way. However, the individual still leaves behind a "psychic scent" that psionic character like Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers can easily follow. - snipped the rest about party members not being affected -

[drewkitty ~..~]

Many many mega posts.
I am sort of glad I said my peace and left for a while.

[Commander]

Here, ill repost JUST the spells, for the fourth and in some cases fifth time, so you can maybe get a grasp on what we're even talking about.

If you're not going to read them, and respond according to WHAT THE SPELLS ACTUALLY SAY, don't bother. Ill just assume youre trolling, report it as such, and add you to my ignore list.

First Sentence: The spell caster and anything he is wearing or carrying at the time of the invocation are turned completely invisible.
Third Paragraph: While invisible, the mag can talk, weave spells, walk, climb, run, open doors, carry objects, and perform other acts of physical exertion, including combat, and remain invisible

A powerful incantation that makes the spell caster invisible to all means of detection. Ordinary vision, infrared, ultraviolet, other optics, heat, motion detectors, and even an animal's sense of smell, can NOT locate the invisible person. No footprints are made, and little sound (prowls at 84%). The Magic is broken only if the character makes a hostile move, or engages in combat/attacks. At that instant, he becomes completely visible. Note: The invisible character is not ethereal and can not walk through walls; he m ust still use a door. The act of forcing open a door or window, picking a lock, tapping somebody, accidentally bumping somebody, or accidentally getting shot or hurt is not considered an act of agression or combat, so invisibility is maintained.

(Note: No saving throw). The Stealthwalk spell does not conceal the physical presence of the caster, or footprints, but it does magically suppress any sound made by the enchanted individual while moving. The spells masks the sound of breathing, footfalls and climbing as well as well as muting the sound of equipment attached to or worn by the individual that might rustle, clunk or clatter, including body armor, weapons, etc.

Note: Saving Throw listed as "Special"
This spell Magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightivsion optics, motions sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared beams, etc, will not detect the character and thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as other magical or psionic viewing means.
There is no saving throw against this spell unless and organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggle's themselves.

(Note: No saving throw of any kind) An invocation that shields the caster from all forms of mystic detection. For the duration of the spell the caster remains totally undetectable by all magical and psionic means. Those creatures that rely on psionic or mystic sight or hearing are unable to detect the caster's presence, and for all intents and purposes, he is both silent and invisible. Furthermore, the caster will not be detected by the special abilities of beings such as Psi-stalker who are ntually able to detect the presence of magic, psionics, and supernatural beings. Similarly, the individual does not radiate any perceptible aura for the duration of the spell.

Its not the spells its the assumption that you cannot be detected. I have the Book of Magic it does not mention at all Invis to sensors. Might be in Phase world or some other book then. My point has been that you still can be tracked. Its not a matter of seeing. If people get suspicious as things disappear. Lights turn on and they make a roll on Lore:Magic then they go AH HA! this ghost or what ever that keeps opening a door is a mage i think..could be anything.

You walking into a base using invis to sensors when its quite well known that they work just fine is a red flag. That goes for space ships and the like. They will suspect things soon. Invis Superior allows you to prowl. READ THE SKILL! i posted it. So unless you are spiderman crawling on the roof with fly with the eagle you are not prowling. Sneaking is prowling not strolling down the road. it does not drop the invis just the part about the sound. Why ? You are not sneaking.

Its not a matter of the sensors. If you do not cast Detect Traps and some old kind of booby trap that has a stone block falls on your head using a pressure plate. Guess what you still step on it and it hits the area the invis person is in. THey occupy a physical space.

I am going to keep saying that every power is Different and unique some of those powers allow you to not be sensed while others can be used in a secondary role through experience. Its why a skilled tracker can track his prey through rain or shine and if its a Dog Boy good luck in trying to throw him off the trail. Psychics do have powers that can sense magic or powers listed on a race or RCC that allow them to overcome such things.

Mages have spells to counter some of these. Some have powers that can overcome even magic! or allow them to sense or detect them otherwise no. See the Invisible GMG Pg 97 See Aura GMG Pg 96-97 GMG Sense Magic Pg 97 PSI-Stalker Pg 153-154 RUE. PSI-Stalkers powers He or she gets to select six psychic powers meaning they can select the ones i listed. CS DOG BOY Pg 145-146 it specifically states Power .3 Sense supernatural beings he/she can sense the location of invisible beings yes that means mages. .4 Other psychic powers they start off with a few Detect Psychic powers listed in the RUE. So even some what normal chars can have psychic powers without being a Burster or Psi stalker or a Dog boy or Mind Melter.

It gets even more tricky with some creatures of magic and those whose occ or powers allow them to do extraordinary things. However it takes good judgement in these situations. A person who is careful and sneaking can remain invisible not to mention others unaware, as long as it lasts. Spells run out of duration so you need to recast it. Pg 367 has a table in RUE for perception rolls. Pg 289 Step 4 of char creation table. Psionics table can be rolled from a Glitter Boy pilot to a NGR pilot robot pilot mage ect. It does not work well if you are inside a tank power armor or robot.

My point has been that they cannot see the caster of invis. They can see him pick up a can of beans if someone is looking that way that vanish. They might think they are going crazy. Now if someone is tracking the mage it gets interesting. They will not be able to detect his DNA on the person but can reasonably follow his trail and try to deduce what he is doing using lore roles and Tracking to stay ahead of the mage or simply will be able to follow blood broken twigs or use the DNA sensor to help track him to the area he is in. Dog Boys being dogs can smell an area the caster was in not long ago if the rolls are made. The mage will have the advantage. Until they become aware of the mage he or she remains unseen if a normal person with no powers. They can guess or try to hunt the mage down who would be running not wishing to face some one in power armor or Juicer Borg or the like.

Invis superior does not last hours read the duration per level of the spell caster. Not to mention Disable Sensors. If a working device suddenly stops working and they have a reasonable suspicion. Ie fighting a mage and sensors go down or joe the tech is sent down to the area can not find anything wrong calls it in or people disappear like guards who do not answer the radio when the check comes in if it does. As more events happen thus they start to deduce it. Every situation differs. People might figure it out right away or they might fail the rolls necessary. They might get it half right who knows its endless.

If a door has an alarm hardwired and you open it it does not negate it simply as its not an external sensor like a IR thermal ect. Hey person is in the Amory someone opened the door!. Guards look inside..humm no ones inside as they check it out mage remains hidden. Now the mage could panic or he could not trip over a guard who would yelp." Hey some ghost knocked me over!" They look around nothing. As long as the mage does not drop prowl does not attack and his spell duration is not up then he still benefits.

[Giant2005]

Invisibility to Sensors doesn't stop sensors for working, they work just as they normally would, they just don't see the person standing their like they normally would.
A camera for instance would look upon an area just as it normally would, only the person with the spell active wouldn't register on it - it would look like he was invisible.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I wonder how they would work against weight based detectors.

[wyrmraker]

Here, ill repost JUST the spells, for the fourth and in some cases fifth time, so you can maybe get a grasp on what we're even talking about.

If you're not going to read them, and respond according to WHAT THE SPELLS ACTUALLY SAY, don't bother. Ill just assume youre trolling, report it as such, and add you to my ignore list.

First Sentence: The spell caster and anything he is wearing or carrying at the time of the invocation are turned completely invisible.
Third Paragraph: While invisible, the mag can talk, weave spells, walk, climb, run, open doors, carry objects, and perform other acts of physical exertion, including combat, and remain invisible

A powerful incantation that makes the spell caster invisible to all means of detection. Ordinary vision, infrared, ultraviolet, other optics, heat, motion detectors, and even an animal's sense of smell, can NOT locate the invisible person. No footprints are made, and little sound (prowls at 84%). The Magic is broken only if the character makes a hostile move, or engages in combat/attacks. At that instant, he becomes completely visible. Note: The invisible character is not ethereal and can not walk through walls; he m ust still use a door. The act of forcing open a door or window, picking a lock, tapping somebody, accidentally bumping somebody, or accidentally getting shot or hurt is not considered an act of agression or combat, so invisibility is maintained.

(Note: No saving throw). The Stealthwalk spell does not conceal the physical presence of the caster, or footprints, but it does magically suppress any sound made by the enchanted individual while moving. The spells masks the sound of breathing, footfalls and climbing as well as well as muting the sound of equipment attached to or worn by the individual that might rustle, clunk or clatter, including body armor, weapons, etc.

Note: Saving Throw listed as "Special"
This spell Magically renders the caster invisible to high-tech sensory devices. Any such device, including radar, sonar, thermal imaging, nightivsion optics, motions sensors, surveillance cameras, infrared beams, etc, will not detect the character and thus will not register an alarm if part of a security system. However, the caster himself is perfectly visible to the human eye as well as other magical or psionic viewing means.
There is no saving throw against this spell unless and organic, intelligent life form is viewing the caster directly through a high-tech optical device. For example, a soldier wearing a pair of nightvision goggles is allowed a save vs magic, which, if successful means the soldier can still see the mage with his own natural vision even though the mage doesn't register on the goggle's themselves.

(Note: No saving throw of any kind) An invocation that shields the caster from all forms of mystic detection. For the duration of the spell the caster remains totally undetectable by all magical and psionic means. Those creatures that rely on psionic or mystic sight or hearing are unable to detect the caster's presence, and for all intents and purposes, he is both silent and invisible. Furthermore, the caster will not be detected by the special abilities of beings such as Psi-stalker who are ntually able to detect the presence of magic, psionics, and supernatural beings. Similarly, the individual does not radiate any perceptible aura for the duration of the spell.

Its not the spells its the assumption that you cannot be detected. I have the Book of Magic it does not mention at all Invis to sensors. Might be in Phase world or some other book then. My point has been that you still can be tracked. Its not a matter of seeing. If people get suspicious as things disappear. Lights turn on and they make a roll on Lore:Magic then they go AH HA! this ghost or what ever that keeps opening a door is a mage i think..could be anything.

You walking into a base using invis to sensors when its quite well known that they work just fine is a red flag. That goes for space ships and the like. They will suspect things soon. Invis Superior allows you to prowl. READ THE SKILL! i posted it. So unless you are spiderman crawling on the roof with fly with the eagle you are not prowling. Sneaking is prowling not strolling down the road. it does not drop the invis just the part about the sound. Why ? You are not sneaking.

Its not a matter of the sensors. If you do not cast Detect Traps and some old kind of booby trap that has a stone block falls on your head using a pressure plate. Guess what you still step on it and it hits the area the invis person is in. THey occupy a physical space.

I am going to keep saying that every power is Different and unique some of those powers allow you to not be sensed while others can be used in a secondary role through experience. Its why a skilled tracker can track his prey through rain or shine and if its a Dog Boy good luck in trying to throw him off the trail. Psychics do have powers that can sense magic or powers listed on a race or RCC that allow them to overcome such things.

Mages have spells to counter some of these. Some have powers that can overcome even magic! or allow them to sense or detect them otherwise no. See the Invisible GMG Pg 97 See Aura GMG Pg 96-97 GMG Sense Magic Pg 97 PSI-Stalker Pg 153-154 RUE. PSI-Stalkers powers He or she gets to select six psychic powers meaning they can select the ones i listed. CS DOG BOY Pg 145-146 it specifically states Power .3 Sense supernatural beings he/she can sense the location of invisible beings yes that means mages. .4 Other psychic powers they start off with a few Detect Psychic powers listed in the RUE. So even some what normal chars can have psychic powers without being a Burster or Psi stalker or a Dog boy or Mind Melter.

It gets even more tricky with some creatures of magic and those whose occ or powers allow them to do extraordinary things. However it takes good judgement in these situations. A person who is careful and sneaking can remain invisible not to mention others unaware, as long as it lasts. Spells run out of duration so you need to recast it. Pg 367 has a table in RUE for perception rolls. Pg 289 Step 4 of char creation table. Psionics table can be rolled from a Glitter Boy pilot to a NGR pilot robot pilot mage ect. It does not work well if you are inside a tank power armor or robot.

My point has been that they cannot see the caster of invis. They can see him pick up a can of beans if someone is looking that way that vanish. They might think they are going crazy. Now if someone is tracking the mage it gets interesting. They will not be able to detect his DNA on the person but can reasonably follow his trail and try to deduce what he is doing using lore roles and Tracking to stay ahead of the mage or simply will be able to follow blood broken twigs or use the DNA sensor to help track him to the area he is in. Dog Boys being dogs can smell an area the caster was in not long ago if the rolls are made. The mage will have the advantage. Until they become aware of the mage he or she remains unseen if a normal person with no powers. They can guess or try to hunt the mage down who would be running not wishing to face some one in power armor or Juicer Borg or the like.

Invis superior does not last hours read the duration per level of the spell caster. Not to mention Disable Sensors. If a working device suddenly stops working and they have a reasonable suspicion. Ie fighting a mage and sensors go down or joe the tech is sent down to the area can not find anything wrong calls it in or people disappear like guards who do not answer the radio when the check comes in if it does. As more events happen thus they start to deduce it. Every situation differs. People might figure it out right away or they might fail the rolls necessary. They might get it half right who knows its endless.

If a door has an alarm hardwired and you open it it does not negate it simply as its not an external sensor like a IR thermal ect. Hey person is in the Amory someone opened the door!. Guards look inside..humm no ones inside as they check it out mage remains hidden. Now the mage could panic or he could not trip over a guard who would yelp." Hey some ghost knocked me over!" They look around nothing. As long as the mage does not drop prowl does not attack and his spell duration is not up then he still benefits.

Invisibility to Sensors - Mercenary Adventures p.15
Stealthwalk - Mercenary Adventures, p13
Mystic Invisibility - Mercenary Adventures p.17
Erase Trail - Mercenary Adventures p.14
You really, really need to read these spells in their entirety. And I can find no mention of a spell entitled Disable Sensors. Closest I can find that would perform as you describe is Frequency Jamming.

[Slight001]

Yay! Magic Versus Tech! ... Tech losses!

Well here's what happened... the damn spell creator said it does that and so it does! Magic wins... because it said it does! Yep... gotta love magic... probably a spell that says that too...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I wonder how they would work against weight based detectors.

Invisibility to Sensors wouldn't help you there, i wouldn't think. You still have to interact with the physical world.

However, Eliakon pointed out the Detect Traps spell, which WOULD help you avoid such things. If you had Fly as the Eagle, you could use it to float above the ground. Now we're getting pretty deep/expensive, though.

Invis (Both), Invis to Sensors, and Mystic Invis + Stealthwalk & Breathe WIthout Air are ... a little pricy but affordable and at mid-levels (5-7) last long enough that a single cast should do you if you know what you're doing.

Adding a lot of other spells to the mix would seriously ramp up the cost, though.

[Commander]

You still can be tracked. Pg. 309 Rifts Ultimate Edition(RUE) Mage unless they fly off or the like can be tracked as normal they will not know his exact location if using spells to hide his or her person.

And you need to read the O.C.C. powers and The R.C.C. powers that allow them to counter such things as invisibility or make a perception check(Even a roll for the power) to spot such a person if they get too close(Dog Boys are a good Example). Some races have super powers or abilities that would make it hard to sneak up on like Gargoyles or the like. Wolfen might smell you after you move past an area as the invis even to sensors only applies to that person or other person you still can be seen unless you have other spells.

You still have to be prowling and you still have to not make an attack. If you trip on a trip wire and it has a grenade attached to it then boom if you failed the perception check for Invis Superior.

Full Conversion borgs or borgs in general Pg 49-50 RUE Amplified hearing. Pg 367 has a table in RUE for perception rolls.

Crazys get Psychic powers and Enhanced Senses. Pg 54-55 RUE

Robots Pg 273 Same as borgs.Pg 367 has a table in RUE for perception rolls if they are stopping to listen using the robots hearing.

Dog Boys Psi-Stalkers and Mind Melters will detect the invisible person as stated in the R.C.C. as they can select Psychic powers to do so. They still have to make a roll but it decreases near a Rift or leyline.

Tech can still hear the person if they are not technically prowling. So using fly as eagle and just zipping around is not prowling. Irregardless each spell has a duration 3 mins on Invis Superior per level of caster. Pg 212 and 213 of RUE. Prowl Skill Pg.317 RUE This skill helps the Character move with stealth;Quietly slowly and carefully. So if you are not prowling you do not get the 80% while you fly run walk and anything not considered moving with stealth. Unless you are crawling at a slow speed or the like while flying. Going 40 mph to the max. Is not prowling.

Every situation differs. If the mage fails his perception check he runs smack right into someone he or she did not wish to as a NPC. They will be confused as the person can make a perception check. Failed they some how ran into something or they figure out the mage is a person who cannot be seen. They Can make a Magic:Lore Check if they have the skill. So the mage needs multiple spells.

No one has countered the fact that robots could see around you or the things you touch. So if you use flying or fly as the Eagle that breaks the Prowl 80% as you are not prowling but flying. Still invisible. Still have the benefits of the rest of the spell but the caster under the rules is not prowling.

Even if you use Invis to sensors people can see you unless you have a good prowl skill or other magics to help you sneak around. A computer through your actions can deduce your location as the places you go and things you touch add up to where its a invisible space around you thus flag it as an anomaly such as phase world or the races cultures or the like.

So Joe figures he will get on board a space cruiser starts stealing weapons. But wait this whole time he has been leaving trails and clues the computer is picking up on. Meanwhile he continues his spree. Computer checks its systems as Joe figures on flying now. Guess what it drops the prowling as he is not prowling now but flying. Over confident that he cannot be detected as the Computer has been trying to collect data. Yet its sensors cannot see the person. So it creates a space or silhouette of the person as a 3-D model flags it to its crew who have not seen this person but now knows that some one has been looting the ship.

Sensors can be those that pick up sounds as well. Vibrations ect. You are fooling the mind and at the start of this argument the sensors work perfect its the mind of the person being affected. Do robots or constructs have minds ? Robots have sensors yes but does that exclude them ?

Can robots Like the Skelebot Dyna bot ect detect such a person by sound then ? Can they see the person or catch a glimpse of this invisable person with a perception check, an outline of them, a glimmer ?

Mages still need to breathe so unless they have the spells to do so or armor gas smoke and outer space to water would prevent some of that as would force fields around a space ship. So the mage still needs other spells unless they plan on infiltrating or espionage the base ship or the like.

Here is a clue you leave home one day and you make your bed. Things are nice you cleaned the chips up while you were gaming. Then you come home. Beds messy and its a mess. Now who did it ? Was it an invisible person ?

[eliakon]

You still can be tracked. Pg. 309 Mage unless they fly off or the like can be tracked as normal they will not know his exact location if using spells to hide his or her person.

what are you going to be tracking though? If a person has stealthwalk up or is using invisibility superior they don't leave a trail. If there is no trail there is nothing to track.

And you need to read the O.C.C. powers and The R.C.C. powers. Some races have super powers or abilities that would make it hard to sneak up on like Gargoyles or the like. Wolfen might smell you after you move past an area as the invis even to sensors only applies to that person or other person. You still have to be prowling and you still have to not make an attack. If you trip on a trip wire and it has a grenade attached to it then boom if you failed the perception check.

I think you do not see how the spell works. I cast it on myself, OR one other person. Then the target of that spell is invisible.
I do not cast it on a person and become invisible to them.
-Invisibility spell does not require you to prowl
-Invisibility superior removes my scent, and means I leave no trail
-Trip wires are valid, though I would not expect wire traps to be in the halls of a ship
-super powers, racial powers, and psionic powers are why you take Mystic Invisibility, which works against them

Full Conversion borgs or borgs in general Pg 49-50 RUE Amplified hearing. Pg 367 has a table in RUE for perception rolls.

Stealthwalk = no sound. period. you don't get to roll to hear a sound that wasn't made.
Invisibility to Sensors = Artifical sensors (like a bionic ear) do not detect you, so again you don't get to detect this

Crazys get Psychic powers and Enhanced Senses. Pg 54-55 RUE

Which is why you use Mystic Invisibility, since it makes you totally undetectable by psionics, even those of a Crazy

Robots Pg 273 Same as borgs.Pg 367 has a table in RUE for perception rolls.

which is a Sensor, so Invisibility to Sensors stops this.

Dog Boys Psi-Stalkers and Mind Melters will detect the invisible person as stated in the R.C.C. as they can select Psychic powers to do so. They still have to make a roll but it decreases near a Rift or leyline.

which is why you use Mystic Invisibility to prevent them from detecting you.

Tech can still hear the person if they are not technically prowling.

unless the person is Invisible to Sensors, then Tech cant detect anything

So using fly as eagle and just zipping around is not prowling. Irregardless each spell has a duration 3 mins on Invis Superior per level of caster. Pg 212 and 213 of RUE. Prowl Skill 317 This skill helps the Character move with stealth;Quietly slowly and carefully.

yes you could prowl on top of the spells, if you wished. That 3 minutes though is pretty impressive. our hypothetical raider gets 18 minutes per casting....and he doesn't have to move slow since he doesn't have to prowl since he cant be detected directly.

Every situation differs. If the mage fails his perception check he runs smack right into some one he or she did not wish to as a NPC. They will be confused. So the mage needs multiple spells.

I do not normally think you need a perception roll to see people. The spells do nothing to make it harder for me to see. Now if a person is hiding, yes...but I am not going to 'run smack right into some one' that is hiding.

No one has countered the fact that robots could see around you or the things you touch. So if you use flying or fly as the Eagle that breaks the Prowl 80% as you are not prowling but flying. Still invisible. Still have the benefits of the rest of the spell but the caster under the rules is not prowling.

The robot cant see me, because it is a sensor, and I am Invisible to Sensors. It could see objects that I manipulate (except where the spells otherwise prevent it, such as a spell blocking me from leaving footprints, means that you cant see the mud I am manipulating....since that would be a footprint) But unless I move an object (say a crate, or a door, or a pot) your robot cant see me

Even if you use Invis to sensors people can see you unless you have a good prowl skill or other magics to help you sneak around. A computer through your actions can deduce your location as the places you go and things you touch add up to where its a invisible space around you thus flag it as an anomaly such as phase world or the races cultures or the like.

The hypothetical mage has all four basic stealth spells on remember? And the computer cant tell if I 'touch' something, since that would be a sensor yes?

So Joe figures he will get on board a space cruiser starts stealing weapons. But wait this whole time he has been leaving trails and clues the computer is picking up on.

Or not, since the spells explicitly say he is NOT leaving a trail.

Meanwhile he continues his spree. Computer checks its systems as Joe figures on flying now. Guess what it drops the prowling as he is not prowling now but flying.

1) Joe doesn't have to prowl, he is invisible.
2) Joe can still prowl if he feels like it while flying
3) He is still invisible

Over confident that he cannot be detected as the Computer has been trying to collect data. Yet its sensors cannot see the person.

The computer doesn't know he is there. Unless he say explicitly walks up and starts typing on a keyboard

So it creates a space or silhouette of the person as a 3-D model flags it to its crew who have not seen this person but now knows that some one has been looting the ship.

How? It can not detect him in any way, shape or form directly. It can only detect secondary effects if those effects are not involved in leaving trails of anysort (so no smells, footprints, scuffs, floating DNA,)

Sensors can be those that pick up sounds as well. Vibrations ect. You are fooling the mind and at the start of this argument the sensors work perfect its the mind of the person being affected. Do robots or constructs have minds ? Robots have sensors yes but does that exclude them ?

No the spell says I make no noise, which means no sounds. It doesn't affect the hearer in anyway which is why there is no saving throw.

Can robots Like the Skelebot Dyna bot ect detect such a person by sound then ? Can they see the person or catch a glimpse of this invisable person with a perception check, an outline of them, a glimmer ?

No, and No. You don't hear something that is making no noise, and you don't see something that is invisible

Mages still need to breathe so unless they have the spells to do so or armor gas smoke and outer space to water would prevent some of that as would force fields around a space ship. So the mage still needs other spells unless they plan on infiltrating or espionage the base ship or the like.

This is hardly relevant to the discussion, but yes, a mage would have to have lifesupport. But since sustain is easy, cheap, and lasts for days.... okay next issue.

Here is a clue you leave home one day and you make your bed. Things are nice you cleaned the chips up while you were gaming. Then you come home. Beds messy and its a mess. Now who did it ? Was it an invisible person ?

Which is fine if the mage moves stuff. But until that stuff moves, I cant detect him. If the mage opens a door I can see that door open. But I have to actually see the door open. You have to actually see the few actions that are NOT covered.
Robbs raid? remember that? You would get a chance to detect him each time he opens a door, or picks something up (like the cheesecake, or the code book) but he can sit in a crowded room for 18 minutes and no one would know unless they tried to sit on him.

[Mack]

Colonel_Tetsuya,
Commander,

If either of you were going to convince the other it would've happened by now. Just let it drop.

[eliakon]

*dropping*

[Commander]

:bandit: *dropping*

Dropping. I would like to get Kevin S. Opinion on how it all works Tech Vs Magic. He would know more. It would clear up confusion since he designed the mechanics and the rules spells with help from other Palladium staff members and contributors over the years. I just wish the spells have more depth. Hard to really know. Unless magic gets a blanket pass or he leaves it up to each GM.

Anyways sorry if it got crazy. Dropping it like a hot potato.