Computerhacking in Macross II and RT?

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:07 am

OK, so I know the skills for Computer Hacking exist in both settings but what defense do they really have against it? It seems the majority of their enemies are relatively computer illiterate and don't appear to engage in digital warfare. So in the end how protected would Macross & RT computer cores be against hacking attempts?

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:52 am

keir451 wrote:OK, so I know the skills for Computer Hacking exist in both settings but what defense do they really have against it? It seems the majority of their enemies are relatively computer illiterate and don't appear to engage in digital warfare. So in the end how protected would Macross & RT computer cores be against hacking attempts?

Thus far, the Macross universe(s) have only depicted hacker attacks being made against civilian networks or relatively low-security systems. Most of it is prankster-grade stuff, like an attempt by techno-savant Jan Neumann of Shinsei Industries to hack the computers at Venus Sound Factory to acquire a copy of Sharon Apple's AI so he could meet the famous singer... a military hacking target is RARE.

The only cases I can think of are when Guld Goa Bowman hacked the automated ammo loader system at the New Edwards Test Flight Center in an effort to frame both Isamu and Shisnei's test team for attempting to sabotage the Project Super Nova competition, and when Dr. Jan Neumann (a techno-savant) hacked the AIF-X-9 Ghost UCAV prototype in mid-flight only to discover it had already been compromised by Sharon Apple, who was, at the time, physically connected to the main computer at the New Unified Forces Command (and thus able to gain access to its secure communications channel without having to break through security).

As far as the viability of computer hacking in the Macross multiverse goes, it's unlikely to be a credible threat in either timeline. In the "DYRLverse" to which Macross II belongs, a computer powerful enough to enable a break-in to the extremely sophisticated overtechnology-based supercomputers of the military would be beyond the reach of anyone who might actually attempt to hack one. Likewise, in the main Macross universe, the only people who have ever been shown carrying out any kind of hacker attack on anything more secure than public web pages are either super-genius techno-savants with technology supplied by an interstellar megacorporation or bleeding-edge state-of-the-art cyborgs who belong to another interstellar megacorporation. Ironically, they still seem to leave military-grade systems alone... the thing most frequently hacked by those cyborgs are other cyborgs.

Now Robotech... we couldn't say. Computer security isn't really a thing that's come up there, except that everything the UEEF has is probably compromised by the Haydonites now, though by a "social engineering" attack that convinced the humans to adopt sabotaged tech rather than by an actual break-in.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:52 pm

keir451 wrote:OK, so I know the skills for Computer Hacking exist in both settings but what defense do they really have against it? It seems the majority of their enemies are relatively computer illiterate and don't appear to engage in digital warfare. So in the end how protected would Macross & RT computer cores be against hacking attempts?

In Robotech they have the same type of defenses one would expect IMHO where hacking is possible (firewalls, password/codes, isolated networks, encryption, etc).

They all use Electronic Warfare in some form:
-communication jamming (Zent/Masters/Invid/Haydonites) are all known to do so
-sensor jamming (Zent/Masters, I'd had the Haydonites to given their stealth)
-communication intercepts (Zent/Masters, IIRC the ASC "reports" communication intercepts on the Masters)

The use of computer virus/worms (etc, in cyberwarefare) really isn't showcased. W/n the confines of the 85ep that is understandable as it is still a product of the mindset of when RT was written. There may be ways to explain its lack of displayed use in those periods (compatibility issues?) or evidence that they have very good defenses (say quantum encryption level) that have rendered it mute w/o an inside track (like the Haydonites had).

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:56 pm

OK. So now how do you think those military systems would stand up to other military digital assault of say, Coalition levels? (Assume for the moment that the CS Digital Reaper is a legitimate part of the CS military structure and that CS computer tech is nearly equivalent to the U.N. Spacy's).
Are there any penalties you might assign (outside of any from the Conversion book)?

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:49 pm

From a VR standpoint, I would not allow the CS/Rifts characters to enter a VR world to interact with the RT hardware effectively (or vise-versa). It would be that simple. The hardware and software would have communications difficulty, and would have things represented in "alien-ese" and unreadable. Super Natural Power (Magic, Psi, Superpower) would be like communicating with a truly alien mind. This would be especially true if Protoculture is in play due to its "Bio-energy"output.

For traditional hacking standpoint, I would treat RTnology as alien technology for the CS characters, as it IS an Alien Science even for Terrans in the setting so it makes sense that the CS/Rifts would also see it as alien (if not more so). RT characters would also see CS/Rifts systems as alien though. I would also require physical access to the system being hacked as RT systems appear to be closed systems effectively blocking remote hacking.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:41 pm

Dairugger XV wrote:1. Such attempts were not part of the story (Macross Plus, and possible Macross Frontier not withstanding, but they weren't asked about), and therefore anything involving them is usually boiling down to: can they do it or no. [...]

With knowledge of the technology behind communications in Macross's multiverse and the apparent difficulty involved in hacking anything more than consumer-grade computing hardware therein, the answer is almost certainly a "Not". Particularly in the prime Macross timeline, where cybernetic and network technology is light years (literally and figuratively) ahead of the technology seen in Ghost in the Shell even as early on as DYRL.

Dairugger XV wrote:Take a good hard look at computers as they are represented in Robotech: they are a work-place tool and almost never seen in someone's personal quarters.

Except, of course, for several scenes that show us that computers were, in fact, a common enough item found in crew quarters during the Macross Saga... and there's something in the background mattes of Dana/Jeanne's quarters in the Masters Saga that looks like a computer as well.

Dairugger XV wrote:The idea that computers of some kind becoming ubiquitous in everyone's lives was not a mainstream idea and most never even thought about it.

Except that that doesn't appear to actually be true... it's true that the computers look a little primitive compared to what we have now (hello zeerust) but they're pretty common.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:15 pm

Well to explain myself a little further, I'm setting up an adventure featuring a Heracles class ship that accidently gets sucked into the 3G during the Dimensional Outbreak, gets boarded by a force of about 100 Demons and assorted nasties, while trying to escape they misfold (yes it has a fold drive, since I'm using Seto's estimates from the Macross mecha manual, it's big enough to support one) due to the unfamiliar dimensional energies messing w/ the fold drive and wind up crashing into Rifts Earth right on the Chi-town/ Fed. Magic border. A small force of CS soldiers have to go in and secure the vessel, so I was trying to logic out the way CS and Macross II computer tech would interact. My theory is that while the tech of Macross is based off of Overtechnology, the computer language would be straight human, and becasue there is only ONE world gov't there's none of the BS we deal with today such as opposing nations trying to hack our defense systems. So it while they'll have general computer software defenses they probably don't have dedicated anti-digital warfare.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:35 pm

Kier - I have statted that ship out if you are interested.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:42 pm

jaymz wrote:Kier - I have statted that ship out if you are interested.

YES!!!! Please and Thank You VERY MUCH!! :lol:

You can pm me if you want.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:26 am

keir451 wrote:so I was trying to logic out the way CS and Macross II computer tech would interact. My theory is that while the tech of Macross is based off of Overtechnology, the computer language would be straight human, and becasue there is only ONE world gov't there's none of the BS we deal with today such as opposing nations trying to hack our defense systems. So it while they'll have general computer software defenses they probably don't have dedicated anti-digital warfare.

Just because M2 (and this goes for RT to) computer tech has human involvement doesn't mean the CS/Rifts computers are instantly compatible.

First there is the communication hardware. Can the two even connect physically? The CS Cybernetic implants still require a physical connection, which may not be present on RT/M2 devices. And even if there is a compatible interface slot, it may not work as intended. A telephone modem slot looks similar to a network cable (cat 5), but they aren't the same, nor can you put a DVD-Rom into a pure CD-Rom drive and expect it to work.

Then there is the communication at the software level. There are numerous network communication protocols and they are not all compatible, and M2/RT may have developed new ones based on the new sciences in each setting. Even device drivers aren't universal (software for running specific hardware is usually based on the OS), nor is general software (OS level requirements, Windows, Linux, Apple) and file types. Then you have system architecture (32-bit vs 64-bit today, who knows what it might look like with alien science involved and in the future).

So there are a lot of ways for the technology to be inaccessible to the CS Digital Reapers (someone with Telemechanic type powers is a different matter) even if it is human.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:13 pm

keir451 wrote:(yes it has a fold drive, since I'm using Seto's estimates from the Macross mecha manual, it's big enough to support one) due to the unfamiliar dimensional energies messing w/ the fold drive [...]

Er... not to be "that guy", but the Herakles-class DID have a fold drive. I don't know why Palladium listed it without one, because the ONLY ship in all of Macross that did not have fold technology as part of its design was the Oberth-class space destroyer. Yes, the old ARMD-class space carriers were designed with fold drives, the drive systems for ARMD-01 thru ARMD-08 hadn't been completed yet at the time the ships were launched (and lost). Any human-built ship designed after the first space war is fold-capable.

While we don't see human ships in the Sol system defense fleets make fold jumps often in the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA, we DO see the battleship Herakles fold into a battle formation right before it gets shot to pieces by the Mardook.

ShadowLogan wrote:My theory is that while the tech of Macross is based off of Overtechnology, the computer language would be straight human, [...]

Probably not, considering the uniquely powerful nature of OTM-based computing... this is a setting in which AI technology is so commonplace it's made its way into vending machines and the sanitation industry. Defense AIs wouldn't be at all surprising in the computer systems. I doubt any human-developed computer would have anything approaching the power to contest supercomputers that have been perfected by the galaxy's most sophisticated species and been patiently refined by AI-driven factory satellites for over half a million years.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:21 pm

Seto - He is saying that because he changed it from the RPG. He has access to my stats now so he may or may not use mine which as you know we discussed things about already :ok:

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:37 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
keir451 wrote:so I was trying to logic out the way CS and Macross II computer tech would interact. My theory is that while the tech of Macross is based off of Overtechnology, the computer language would be straight human, and becasue there is only ONE world gov't there's none of the BS we deal with today such as opposing nations trying to hack our defense systems. So it while they'll have general computer software defenses they probably don't have dedicated anti-digital warfare.

Just because M2 (and this goes for RT to) computer tech has human involvement doesn't mean the CS/Rifts computers are instantly compatible.

First there is the communication hardware. Can the two even connect physically? The CS Cybernetic implants still require a physical connection, which may not be present on RT/M2 devices. And even if there is a compatible interface slot, it may not work as intended. A telephone modem slot looks similar to a network cable (cat 5), but they aren't the same, nor can you put a DVD-Rom into a pure CD-Rom drive and expect it to work.

Then there is the communication at the software level. There are numerous network communication protocols and they are not all compatible, and M2/RT may have developed new ones based on the new sciences in each setting. Even device drivers aren't universal (software for running specific hardware is usually based on the OS), nor is general software (OS level requirements, Windows, Linux, Apple) and file types. Then you have system architecture (32-bit vs 64-bit today, who knows what it might look like with alien science involved and in the future).

So there are a lot of ways for the technology to be inaccessible to the CS Digital Reapers (someone with Telemechanic type powers is a different matter) even if it is human.

Very true. Yet somehow I doubt CS tech is really that far behind, I figure the CS has adaptable jacks (who knows what they might need to jack into in the field) and I did figure into things the issues of communication protocols. That's where the -10% comes into play. A psychic wiht Telemechanics can aid a Digital Reaper significantly by providing codes and software specs as wella s hardwar specs.

glitterboy2098 · Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:40 pm

in robotech, i'd say hacking would be similar to the real world.. any computer connected to the outside (even if through a system like radar or thru a comm system, wifi link, bluetooth, etc) can be hacked if you have the right equipment (things like AESA Radars, advanced ECM pods, etc) and pre-knowledge of the target's software to let you program the right handshake protocols, attack software, and viruses. as a result, really important networks are carefully insulated from outside connections as much as possible, and regular software updates to improve the security of the computer software are performed. but there are always ways into the systems, albeit sometimes roundabout ones. inserted programming would mostly be used to mess up enemy systems.. bring down sensors, mess up calibration settings to confuse things, etc. very rarely would it do more than force a target to revert to their less effective backup systems. as a result, its really more of a background element, and very much subject to GM fiat in a game.

but with the haydonites, you also have some BSG like elements that could show up.. their attack on the UEEF for example seems to have involved using specific signals to trigger latent programming in their shadow tech (actually reminding me about one of the bolostories) similar to the Cylon's attack on the colonies.. the haydonites being AI's, you could also see something liek the cylon AI worm.. inserted via hacking as packets of separate viruses, which gradually assemble themselves into a malevolent AI that turns the ship against its crew.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:42 pm

Also the penalties and bonuses under the Electronics Expert in HU2 would be a very good reference as to how difficult you want to make it.

glitterboy2098 · Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:54 pm

in the real world hacking is more of a strategic weapon than a tactical one.. battles are too complicated to hack during, but using hacking and viruses to take down/reduce enemy defenses in the area of operations for an attack is pretty viable. likewise if you have automated hacking programs (not uncommon IRL) you could futz up enemy AWACS, ground control intercept,or command/control nets while closing to engage before a battle, and gain a small edge that way.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:56 pm

Thanks guys!

You've all given quite a bit (byte?) of food for thought, especially in reminding me of the prevalence of AI systems in the Macross /RT timelines (though we DON'T see that tech in any other military system except the Factory and their attempts at creating "smart" AIs was disastrous). My personal feeling is that we tend to underestimate the CS because they're the bad guys and that their tech is "only human", I could be wrong though, so forgive me if I seem out of line.
Again, thanks to everyone who posted and have a good day! (Furtehr post ARE still welcome, though

)

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:38 pm

keir451 wrote:Thanks guys! You've all given quite a bit (byte?) of food for thought, especially in reminding me of the prevalence of AI systems in the Macross /RT timelines (though we DON'T see that tech in any other military system except the Factory and their attempts at creating "smart" AIs was disastrous).

Actually, we see AIs at work in most scenes in Macross... AI technology is a fundamental part of the airframe control (avionics) package in every single VF from the VF-0 onwards*. The first three generations of main timeline VFs used a system called ANGIRAS, which was a "super AI" suite that handled all maneuvering kinaesthetics including transformation. Starting on both the YF-19 and YF-21, new VFs transitioned to an improved version of the AI avionics which is called ARIEL, and the YF-24 derivatives use an improved version of that called ARIEL II.

Likewise, all of the drone fighters from the QF-2200 onwards (incl. the QF-3000 of the original series and QF-4000/AIF-7/AIF-9 series) use AI that can operate independently... though they were often operated only as semi-independent drones due to stability issues (initially) and the fear of berserk AIs (starting with the AIF-X-9, as referenced in Macross Frontier). They also use AI drones in Macross II and its prequels, as the funnels used by the Strike Siren (VF-4ST) and the auto-attacker bits used by the Valkyrie II (VF-2SS).

AI is EVERYWHERE in Macross... from starship and fighter computers down the line to the average vending machine and trash collection units. Sharon Apple was different because she'd been fitted with a bio-neural processor that made her AI capable of true, unpredictable, "living" behavior... similar processors were also installed on the AIF-X-9 and the subsequent AIF-7 and AIF-9 Ghosts (QF-4000) in the field, though under an operations restraint called the "Judah System".

* This detail was first established in the Sky Angels VF-1 tech manual, which was published by Macross staffers around the time DYRL came out in 1984.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:05 pm

I guess one question that needs to be defined exactly is. "What do you mean by AI"

Since so many different people have different ideas of what is or is not an AI.

glitterboy2098 · Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:11 pm

people tend to forget the term applies to any decision making software, not just the sentient 'artificial people' of scifi..

most AI in real life and in macross would be "weak AI".. basically programs that can make useful choices based on inputs.

there has yet to be any 'strong AI' in real life, but in macross programs like Sharon Apple would count. strong AI is programs that show human like mentality.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:59 pm

keir451 wrote:Very true. Yet somehow I doubt CS tech is really that far behind, I figure the CS has adaptable jacks (who knows what they might need to jack into in the field) and I did figure into things the issues of communication protocols. That's where the -10% comes into play. A psychic wiht Telemechanics can aid a Digital Reaper significantly by providing codes and software specs as wella s hardwar specs.

-10% may be to low of a penalty though as it really doesn't include other aspects that would also apply (like the level of defense). I don't think M2 (or even RT) would limit themselves to simple password level defenses, and they would use encryption and other high end systems to protect sensitive data. Even in M2, there is evidence of censorship, so govt/military would take steps to properly protect and encrypt data. So you are looking at -10% for unknown code, and additional -20 to 60% penalty depending on the level of the security, I would also throw in alien use penalties as the technology is technically alien since it comes from another dimension/timeline

It may not be a matter of how far behind/ahead a given faction is. The hardware may not be compatible with cybernetic interfaces the Digital Reapers use requiring them to use the old fashioned manual approach (or straight SNP, and super-natural powers such as Telemechanics could be used to tell them that). And they can't have adaptable jacks for every situation they might encounter (how many different interface jacks have there been on computers in the past 20years, not just externally visible, but also internal (like PCI vs ISA, IDE vs SATA, etc).

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:17 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
keir451 wrote:Very true. Yet somehow I doubt CS tech is really that far behind, I figure the CS has adaptable jacks (who knows what they might need to jack into in the field) and I did figure into things the issues of communication protocols. That's where the -10% comes into play. A psychic wiht Telemechanics can aid a Digital Reaper significantly by providing codes and software specs as wella s hardwar specs.

-10% may be to low of a penalty though as it really doesn't include other aspects that would also apply (like the level of defense). I don't think M2 (or even RT) would limit themselves to simple password level defenses, and they would use encryption and other high end systems to protect sensitive data. Even in M2, there is evidence of censorship, so govt/military would take steps to properly protect and encrypt data. So you are looking at -10% for unknown code, and additional -20 to 60% penalty depending on the level of the security, I would also throw in alien use penalties as the technology is technically alien since it comes from another dimension/timeline

It may not be a matter of how far behind/ahead a given faction is. The hardware may not be compatible with cybernetic interfaces the Digital Reapers use requiring them to use the old fashioned manual approach (or straight SNP, and super-natural powers such as Telemechanics could be used to tell them that). And they can't have adaptable jacks for every situation they might encounter (how many different interface jacks have there been on computers in the past 20years, not just externally visible, but also internal (like PCI vs ISA, IDE vs SATA, etc).

Hmm, it is possible that those negatives are too low, I'll consider adjusting, but Computer hacking has a really low percentile to begin with so a -10% seems fair. My concept of an adaptable jack uses a bit of nano tech so they only carry ONE jack but it adjusts itself to the port it's fitted to via a low level nano system. The otehr area I disagree on is just what is "alien" here. The Macross itself was technically "alien tech" yet it only took those humans 10 yrs to refit it and gain a basic understanding of the tech ( VERY basic admittedly) after that we're no longer really talking about "alien tech" per se as we are talking about HUMAN applications of this tech. By 2040 (Macross Plus) and 2080-92(Macross II) it (to me at least) has long since passed firmly into the realm of built BY humans FOR humans with none of the alien influence left over. So it is no longer alien, it is now just advanced HUMAN tech as "we" coopted it into our own systems and culture just like we do everything else. So, yeah, I firmly believe that CS and NGR computer tech is at least as good and ARCHIES tech is better than the systems in Macross II.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:22 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
keir451 wrote:Thanks guys! You've all given quite a bit (byte?) of food for thought, especially in reminding me of the prevalence of AI systems in the Macross /RT timelines (though we DON'T see that tech in any other military system except the Factory and their attempts at creating "smart" AIs was disastrous).

Actually, we see AIs at work in most scenes in Macross... AI technology is a fundamental part of the airframe control (avionics) package in every single VF from the VF-0 onwards*. The first three generations of main timeline VFs used a system called ANGIRAS, which was a "super AI" suite that handled all maneuvering kinaesthetics including transformation. Starting on both the YF-19 and YF-21, new VFs transitioned to an improved version of the AI avionics which is called ARIEL, and the YF-24 derivatives use an improved version of that called ARIEL II.

Likewise, all of the drone fighters from the QF-2200 onwards (incl. the QF-3000 of the original series and QF-4000/AIF-7/AIF-9 series) use AI that can operate independently... though they were often operated only as semi-independent drones due to stability issues (initially) and the fear of berserk AIs (starting with the AIF-X-9, as referenced in Macross Frontier). They also use AI drones in Macross II and its prequels, as the funnels used by the Strike Siren (VF-4ST) and the auto-attacker bits used by the Valkyrie II (VF-2SS).

AI is EVERYWHERE in Macross... from starship and fighter computers down the line to the average vending machine and trash collection units. Sharon Apple was different because she'd been fitted with a bio-neural processor that made her AI capable of true, unpredictable, "living" behavior... similar processors were also installed on the AIF-X-9 and the subsequent AIF-7 and AIF-9 Ghosts (QF-4000) in the field, though under an operations restraint called the "Judah System".

* This detail was first established in the Sky Angels VF-1 tech manual, which was published by Macross staffers around the time DYRL came out in 1984.

Y'know I REALLY wish YOU had been on the crews when Macross II was made into an RPG, this info would have been SOOO helpful back then. :lol:

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:46 pm

Kier - that's why I rewrote a bunch of it

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:57 pm

keir451 wrote:Y'know I REALLY wish YOU had been on the crews when Macross II was made into an RPG, this info would have been SOOO helpful back then.

You'd need to send present-me back in time to make that workable... I was all of about nine at the time those books went to print. :lol:

eliakon wrote:I guess one question that needs to be defined exactly is. "What do you mean by AI"
Since so many different people have different ideas of what is or is not an AI.

Well, that varies depending on the time the series is set... the "Super AI" avionics used on the Variable Fighters, Destroids, etc. are extremely powerful and sophisticated, and are capable of fairly complex reasoning at enormous speeds (and they'd have to be, considering they're being used to manage the sort of body kinaesthetics that enable a robot to perform at a level which rivals the speed and agility of a flesh-and-blood human in peak physical fitness, and do things like handle dozens of moving parts in transformation at high speed in all manner of operational conditions), but their functional focus is fairly narrow and they wouldn't, for instance, have a chance of gaining sentience or anything like that. These systems are capable of learning and adapting at a fairly impressive rate.

On the other hand, when it comes to drone fighters, you have a fair amount of intelligence to make independent operation and snap combat decisions at the outset, which graduated to an AI technology that actually had the potential to gain sentience under the right circumstances and was fully capable of making truly unpredictable decisions like a living being. That ability's kept in line by the AIF-7 and AIF-9 series software, which contains constraints to prevent its intelligence from going berserk or turning on friendly forces. The funnel and bit AIs are not as intelligent, but they're perfectly capable of threat assessment (and are even able to decide a pilot needs saving by sacrificing the drone to take a hit).

AI isn't as simple as "weak" or "strong"... you can have AIs that are narrowly focused that will naturally be better and more reliable at performing certain tasks than broadly capable AIs that are more reminiscent of human thought processes. Macross's AI technology is extremely potent, but usually comes in the form of an adaptive, learning computer of considerable power that is focused on a set of specific functions rather than a broadly focused system that works to ape human thought processes.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:23 pm

jaymz wrote:Kier - that's why I rewrote a bunch of it

Yeah, I wind up doing that alot, too. I like coming herea t times and throwing out my ideas asa sort of litmus test to see how they're received and what flaws people can find in them (usually ALOT :lol:

).

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:10 am

keir451 wrote:Hmm, it is possible that those negatives are too low, I'll consider adjusting, but Computer hacking has a really low percentile to begin with so a -10% seems fair.

The negatives are too low. While the skill is low, I think it is designed that way because it is supposed to be HARD not easy to hack.

keir451 wrote:My concept of an adaptable jack uses a bit of nano tech so they only carry ONE jack but it adjusts itself to the port it's fitted to via a low level nano system

That might work, but just seems awfully convenient for them to have something that works all the time for them. Its one thing when dealing with known power blocks (NGR, NG, Wilks, WI, Chipwell, GAW), its quite another when dealing with unknowns (even ones that historically can be seen as branching off long ago)

keri451 wrote:The otehr area I disagree on is just what is "alien" here. The Macross itself was technically "alien tech" yet it only took those humans 10 yrs to refit it and gain a basic understanding of the tech ( VERY basic admittedly) after that we're no longer really talking about "alien tech" per se as we are talking about HUMAN applications of this tech...

I would still not consider it human technology from the POV of Rifts Earthlings (which the CS are) due to the alien sciences involved that are unknown to them and can be the basis of creating incompatibilities for the near term use (long term use after careful study and development is another matter).

keir451 wrote: firmly believe that CS and NGR computer tech is at least as good and ARCHIES tech is better than the systems in Macross II.

I don't. The M2/RT/SDF:m technology is not earth circa [insert year] like the CS/NGR/RoJ/Archie/NN/Golden-Age would be, it skipped ahead due to the infusion of alien technology that operates on sciences unknown to humans and is centuries if not millennia ahead. They are more in line with Phaseworld level of technologies than Rifts Earth proper.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:36 am

Honestly I do not think the interface and input jacks would be all THAT different. While the software and hardware of the systems may be alien and quite different we are still human and looking at our interfaces today they may have morphed over time but there is no reason to suddenly and radically change how we think to utilize those systems. In many ways PCs cannot talk to Apple's but the interfaces in many cases are the same. The only differences being the internal hardware and software. THAT would be the bigger stumbling block to me.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:47 am

@Shadow Logan; Fair 'nough gov'. It is a valid point that from the CS POV Macross tech just might be considered alien, at least until they've had time ot examine it. As for the -10%, I was applying that as a reverse from what the Conversion Book gave RT people when they worked on areas of Rifts high tech, since the two systems (Macross & RT) aren't that different. I think both sides (the CS and Macross II) would understand each others tech as the fundamental principles are the same, railguns are railguns and particle beams are particle beams, or at least the base scientific principles are the same.
Since hacking is so low a percentile already giving it a larger penalty sems unfair, to me, but I DO give higher penalties for skills such as computer programming (-30% or higher depending). I'm not going to penalize an already low base percentile into impossibility as it ruins the game for the player "Why do I have hacking if I can't even have a chance?". Psionics are a different story though, with them I typically hit the psychic with a save vs psionics, a failed save means they get kicked out of the system and will have a harder time getting back in, a succesful save STILL gets them a nose bleed and a MAJOR headache.

Basically I just wanted to know what kind of cyber/digital warfare defenses they guys would have, plus what level of occurance would these forms of warfare actually have in these settings? IRL we put quite a bit of research into cyber/digital warfare because we have opposing nations that are actively trying to hack our systems. Yet in Macross there's only ONE gov't, the U.N Spacy, and hacking via fold communications from another planet would probably be rather difficult due to communications lag, and the possibility of the fold comm systems being a limited use system controlled by the gov't (merely a possibility as I've no actual evidence as to who controls the planetary fold comms).
And just to show that this is al in fun: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ITA4CblPVIY/U ... 00/RAW.jpg

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:45 am

jaymz wrote:Honestly I do not think the interface and input jacks would be all THAT different. While the software and hardware of the systems may be alien and quite different we are still human and looking at our interfaces today they may have morphed over time but there is no reason to suddenly and radically change how we think to utilize those systems. In many ways PCs cannot talk to Apple's but the interfaces in many cases are the same. The only differences being the internal hardware and software. THAT would be the bigger stumbling block to me.

I think you've got the right idea there jaymz. That's honestly how I handle it too. It would come down to figuring out what they (the M2 people) use to represent "on/off" in their software.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:20 am

ShadowLogan wrote:The M2/RT/SDF:m technology is not earth circa [insert year] like the CS/NGR/RoJ/Archie/NN/Golden-Age would be, it skipped ahead due to the infusion of alien technology that operates on sciences unknown to humans and is centuries if not millennia ahead.

Well... I'm not exactly familiar with the RIFTS setting's various factions, but I can vouch for the fact that technology in the Macross universe(s) is not exactly in line with humanity's, and that the Overtechnology humanity recovered from the wrecked alien gun destroyer over the 10 years it was being rebuilt catapulted human science ahead by at least a few thousand years.

In many ways, the technology used by humans after the first space war is increasingly distant from actual human-developed technologies. It's more like they're just applying overtechnology they've reverse-engineered or enhanced with their increasing grasp of the science behind it to produce devices that do the same job as conventional human technology, but do it better and more efficiently (e.g. cell phones, laptops, physical media). The prime Macross universe's more about melding human-developed overtechnology (often "reinventing the wheel") with the overtechnology they obtain through study of captured factory satellites and the like. Now, on the other hand, the Macross II: Lovers Again parallel world continuity is more like humans outright replacing their own technology and even their relatively crude overtechnology with an effective synthesis of Zentradi and Meltrandi overtechnology obtained from the two fleets who had dragged Earth into the middle of their war and captured factory satellites. Essentially, the technology used by the UN in Macross II is more or less "pure" overtechnology packaged into a human-designed container.

jaymz wrote:Honestly I do not think the interface and input jacks would be all THAT different. While the software and hardware of the systems may be alien and quite different we are still human and looking at our interfaces today they may have morphed over time but there is no reason to suddenly and radically change how we think to utilize those systems.

It's the "under the hood" changes that would be the biggest issue... we've developed a lot of new interface types in just the past twenty years, and processor technology and logic have evolved so radically and so quickly in the past twenty-odd years that some people honestly believe it's because we're already imitating alien technology. Some of the technology we've already got that we just haven't made commercially available (for environmental reasons) is SO radically above what's commonly available now that it's kind of a mind=blown moment to see it in action.

Still, we also see that older interfaces are often abandoned except for highly-specialized uses. I mean, when was the last time you saw a PC that had a serial port? I can't even remember... I think it might've been about ten years ago. Parallel ports? USB 1.x?

jaymz wrote:In many ways PCs cannot talk to Apple's but the interfaces in many cases are the same. The only differences being the internal hardware and software. THAT would be the bigger stumbling block to me.

Actually this hasn't been true for a while now... a lot of the incompatibilities were the result of Apple using Motorola processors and chipsets instead of the more prevalent AMD or Intel chips, which they went to about 11 years or so ago. Now the only appreciable difference between a Mac and a PC is the OS on the boot volume (and that the Mac is usually using technology one generation older than new PCs).

keir451 wrote:It is a valid point that from the CS POV Macross tech just might be considered alien, at least until they've had time ot examine it.

Well, to be fair, it IS alien... literally.

jaymz wrote:I think both sides (the CS and Macross II) would understand each others tech as the fundamental principles are the same, railguns are railguns and particle beams are particle beams, or at least the base scientific principles are the same.

Depends which beam weapons you're talking about... the Macross II RPG misidentifies just about every kind of energy weapon in the OVA. Lasers are almost unheard-of because they're not as powerful, particle beam cannons would probably be pretty familiar, but the most common energy weapons in Macross are dimension weapons, which would be completely alien to a RIFTS setting (they're literally a weaponized fold effect).

EDIT: Any RIFTS power would probably have a hard time getting their head around most of overtechnology because so much of it involves dimensional manipulation. It's not fusion that powers them, or any form of conventional nuclear energy, it's an exotic fusion analog that's only possible in a pocket of 10+ dimensional spacetime, for instance.

jaymz wrote:Yet in Macross there's only ONE gov't, the U.N Spacy, and hacking via fold communications from another planet would probably be rather difficult due to communications lag, and the possibility of the fold comm systems being a limited use system controlled by the gov't (merely a possibility as I've no actual evidence as to who controls the planetary fold comms).

Depends what part of Macross you're talking about... the UN Government in Macross II: Lovers Again's timeline is on an eternal war footing, so their security is likely to be quite high on an average day. The UN/New UN Government in the prime continuity isn't exactly one gov't to rule them all... the original UN Government was a supranational government with authority a bit like the US Federal Gov't to the individual states. After the war, there weren't really any of the member nations left, so it sort of just became the one government for a bit, until humanity started settling other worlds, then it graduated back to a Federal Gov't-type level before they became too spread out for tight control and it became a weaker supranational government like the EU. (Inter-colony espionage and conflict DOES happen, examples occur in several titles in the main timeline, including Macross M3, Macross Plus, and the Macross Frontier movies.)

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:24 am

keir451 wrote:As for the -10%, I was applying that as a reverse from what the Conversion Book gave RT people when they worked on areas of Rifts high tech, since the two systems (Macross & RT) aren't that different.

I think that is the baseline penalty though for general use. I looked up the Cyberhacking in Rifter#2, and they do suggest various penalties to employ based on the systems present. So it would be -10% fo CB1o (I don't have original, I have revised and RT references are removed), plus penalties for hacking as outlined in the cyberjacking article based on the level of security and familiarity.

keir451 wrote:Since hacking is so low a percentile already giving it a larger penalty sems unfair

Not really, it just requires a more skilled/experienced hacker which is not unreasonable IMHO. As there should be stuff lower level characters should have difficulty doing (IF NOT impossible) vs a more experienced character.

Is it unfair that a CS Digital Reaper with an IQ of 30 has +16% chance over CS Digital Reapers with IQs of 16 or lower at the same level? That translates into 3 full levels? A IQ of 30 may be to high, so lets go with IQ of 24 (max under RMB for humans), that's a +10%. Is it unfair the IQ of 24 guy vs IQ of 16=< in the same OCC is always going to be 2 levels higher than his less intelligent counter part in a given skill?

keir451 wrote:Basically I just wanted to know what kind of cyber/digital warfare defenses they guys would have, plus what level of occurance would these forms of warfare actually have in these settings?

This is more GM fiat, because when you get down to it they are going to be a product of the time period they where written in. Information Warfare (which includes Cyber and Electronic Warfare), has evolved since the 80s and early 90s when these shows where conceived. Which means there are 3 ways to handle them:
1. non-existent, but it may still require certain avenues of attack
2. present in modern concepts, but not central to story so overlooked
3. defenses are such that modern concepts are useless

keir451 wrote:Yet in Macross there's only ONE gov't, the U.N Spacy,

There may be only one govt, but the UN Spacy would still have protections in place to deal with any potential threats both alien and domestic (criminals, dissidents, media, etc).

jaymz wrote:Honestly I do not think the interface and input jacks would be all THAT different...

Mechanioids. Now the Mechanoids may be an extreme example of this, but it still shows what the human mind can develop different interfaces that aren't going to be compatible based on available technology and science involved. Even the Robotech Masters can be shown to have different intefaces with their technologies (Bioroid, mushroom), and they are closer to the humans involved than the Mechanoids. So I don't think it would be that much of a stretch to have drastically different input/output approaches and software based on the technology (and the science behind it).

There is such a thing as standardization though, but standards also change and evolve overtime. So even though we can say Rifts/RT/M2 start with 80s tech (ex) as a baseline, they evolve differently and may have unique standards. Even with apparently similar standards you can have incompatibilities. I have hooked up a PS/2 Mouse and Keyboard incorrectly several times by accident and found that neither device will work if not put into the proper PS/2 slot, even though they connected just fine to the MB.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:16 pm

There is also parallel development that results in something similar enough to be called the same. At least in a interface/input design. I could easily see that happening here with the Golden Age versus Robotech and how each comes to be. Rifts GA developed on its own more or less while Robotech basically took alien tech and modified it for human use. Macross II Tech ....well in a lot of ways it is really stagnated by comparison to Macross Proper. Mind you from video evidence a lot of it is just more powerful tech but in most cases quite similar. Hell GA and Macross tech by and large would likely be wifi like and not need physical interfaces at all....

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:26 pm

@ ShadowLogan; Yeah I WAS going to say "according to levels", but I thought it didn't sound right :lol:

.
As for the 30 I.Q., it's not unfair, (though it's REALLY, REALLY rare IMO), so of course I adjust appropiately according to character ability and circumstances. During the last Palladium OH I had a player's character ACTAULLY pull off hacking attempt even after a -30% penalty (leaving him at a 25%)!
Ihave the original CB 1, as I felt no need for the revised one if it didn't offer convcersions fro MAcross II as wellas RT, so I just use RT conversion rules as my baseline for Macross II.
Ok, so we're both looking the same Rifter, I agree that those penalties seem fair.
I don't expect a Digital Reaper to have an EASY time getting into UN Spacy data core, but I do think he'd get in eventually. With the way I'm setting it up he'll have to make his hack from an external port and due to the ship's self repair routines he'll run into many difficulties in the process. In all honesty there's no guarantee that the players will even be able to GET to a data core as they amy have to blow the ship up to keep it out of enemy hands.
You're right that we'r dealing with Gm fiat, but I still like to poll for thoughts on these things as I change my games accordign to the changes that occur techwise IRL. So i KNEW it was psossible but the LEVEL of "possible" was what I was wondering about and you and Seto quite often have more info on those settings than I, so I enjoy your thoughts even if I disagree w/them.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:32 pm

jaymz wrote:There is also parallel development that results in something similar enough to be called the same. At least in a interface/input design. I could easily see that happening here with the Golden Age versus Robotech and how each comes to be. Rifts GA developed on its own more or less while Robotech basically took alien tech and modified it for human use. Macross II Tech ....well in a lot of ways it is really stagnated by comparison to Macross Proper. Mind you from video evidence a lot of it is just more powerful tech but in most cases quite similar. Hell GA and Macross tech by and large would likely be wifi like and not need physical interfaces at all....

A solid observation jaymz! :ok:

That's been one fo my contentions that despite the differemces intech there would still be some level of parity between the settings. After all even if the original tech was alien it's been altered by the humans who use it to make it more user friendly for them. So that 'alieness" has long since been lost and I highly doubt that they'd use Zentran computer language (whatever it may be) to program HUMAN computer systems built into HUMAN tech.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:55 pm

keir451 wrote:After all even if the original tech was alien it's been altered by the humans who use it to make it more user friendly for them. So that 'alieness" has long since been lost and I highly doubt that they'd use Zentran computer language (whatever it may be) to program HUMAN computer systems built into HUMAN tech.

Actually, it was basically just a human-friendly interface layered over the existing alien systems, and Macross II sources explicitly describe human ships as being made pretty much purely of alien technology.

(The standard battleship is described as a synthesis of Zentradi and Meltrandi overtechnology.)

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:19 pm

Did they effectively keep human-esque interfaces though? If so that goes back to internal hardware and software being the issue but not necessarily the external interfaces doesn't it?

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:27 pm

jaymz wrote:Did they effectively keep human-esque interfaces though? If so that goes back to internal hardware and software being the issue but not necessarily the external interfaces doesn't it?

The controls we see are fairly human-esque... but then again, so are the Zentradi controls we see, so that may not necessarily use human interface technology. The only ship we see that has something resembling a modern external interface is the Macross itself, which appears to have a few slots for some sort of cased optical disc.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:37 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
keir451 wrote:After all even if the original tech was alien it's been altered by the humans who use it to make it more user friendly for them. So that 'alieness" has long since been lost and I highly doubt that they'd use Zentran computer language (whatever it may be) to program HUMAN computer systems built into HUMAN tech.

Actually, it was basically just a human-friendly interface layered over the existing alien systems, and Macross II sources explicitly describe human ships as being made pretty much purely of alien technology.

(The standard battleship is described as a synthesis of Zentradi and Meltrandi overtechnology.)

That... doesn't make sense. :?:

I could see that they would do that for the Macross itself at first, but not continuously. That means that they'd have no actual control or understanding of the tech if they needed an interface. If IIRC by 2040 they were to have fully grasped the Overtechnology and were using it w/out interfaces and were producing their own tech using Overtech as a base. More likely is that they use the base tech but control it using their own software programs which, admittedly, will be different due to the tech it has to control and the purpose it's put to. Interfaces might have a tendency to fail or misinterpret intructions as the computer languages (and "real" languages) would be totally different leading to totally different thought processes. You could still have a synthesis of the two technologies but the software programs would be of human design but fulfilling the same function as the original Protoculture programs. Also don't forget that the humans came up with tech concepts that the Protoculture apparently didn't (transforming fighters and the Macross' transformation sequence) so humans had to develop programs to control those systems as there wouldn't be a Protoculture equivalent. It also seems that much of the Zentran/Meltran tech used the BDI system any physical controls were very simple systems (by comaprison), it's possible that much of the Protoculture tech was linked to a BDI system to allow direct access and control.
Physical consoles would still exist but they'd proabably not be as prevalent as they are for humans.

glitterboy2098 · Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:40 pm

the question is really one of the stuff we don't see.. if the alien derived tech needs a special operating system the coalition systems wouldn't be able to interface without a lot of reverse engineering work. and even if the OS isn't an alien one, the way the two universes have developed means that even OS's based from the same original source will have developed very differently. this wouldn't be as tough of a problem, but it would still make interfacing tricky since the two OS's might not be compatible in all things.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:50 pm

Yeah it's the software side I see as the bigger issue. Unless you are a TM of course then it doesn't matter....

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:01 pm

keir451 wrote:...but I thought it didn't sound right

But that is how the Palladium Skill system works. You factor in your level, the base skill, IQ, and class bonuses. And even then you still have that 2% chance of screwing up. While not part of RAW, you could use 1% as an auto-sucess (just as no skill bonus can take you over 98%, no skill penalty can reduce you to below 1%) and 100% as a catastrophic auto-failure. Sort of like a Natural 1 and Natural 20 rolls on a D20, with Nat.1s being a houserule of catastrophic failure (item breaks, jams, blows up, etc).

keir451 wrote:I don't expect a Digital Reaper to have an EASY time getting into UN Spacy data core

Not all CS DRs though are equal. You have IQ and Level considerations that will effect how easy or difficult a time any given CS DR will have, and that's just the baseline skill percentage chance. When you consider other aspects they can have an even more difficult time and that can lengthen the process.

There is always the chance that the CS DR sent on the mission is not up to the task, so encountering penalties that boarder on Impossible for them should not be unheard of.

keir451 wrote:In all honesty there's no guarantee that the players will even be able to GET to a data core as they amy have to blow the ship up to keep it out of enemy hands.

They have several options though to get the Data. They can try to get through defenses and such to copy the data. Or they can physically locate said data core and remove it for transport for later analysis, likely after building adapters. Now the core may not be transportable or easily removable either, it depends on how integrated they are. Ex, I can replace the harddrive on my computer with minimal difficulty, but the BIOS memory is integrated into the Motherboard and that is something I can't easily replace (would have to do the entire MB).

keir451 wrote:So that 'alieness" has long since been lost and I highly doubt that they'd use Zentran computer language (whatever it may be) to program HUMAN computer systems built into HUMAN tech.

Why? We still use older programming languages today in some form, even if they have been superceeding by newer languages. So humans would have to have a strong need to replace the Zentran languages, but that might end up with a similar level of "alienness" for Rifts Earth exploration if the programming uses science unknown to them.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:07 pm

jaymz wrote:Yeah it's the software side I see as the bigger issue. Unless you are a TM of course then it doesn't matter....

That's my thought, too, that way the D. Reaper will have to spend some time "communicating" with the host sytems before being able to effectively hack them. A Psi-Tech or Operator or Mind Melter would have an easier time of it for sure, 'course thqt's what makes them both valauble AND cheap at the same time; GM: "Dude, I spent ALL NIGHT working up this unhackable alien AI and your Mind Melter hacked it in SECONDS!!!" Player: "What? It's MY fault you forgot to prep for TM abilities?" GM: "Dude, shut up and pass the pizza."

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:11 pm

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:28 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
keir451 wrote:...but I thought it didn't sound right

But that is how the Palladium Skill system works. You factor in your level, the base skill, IQ, and class bonuses. And even then you still have that 2% chance of screwing up. While not part of RAW, you could use 1% as an auto-sucess (just as no skill bonus can take you over 98%, no skill penalty can reduce you to below 1%) and 100% as a catastrophic auto-failure. Sort of like a Natural 1 and Natural 20 rolls on a D20, with Nat.1s being a houserule of catastrophic failure (item breaks, jams, blows up, etc).

keir451 wrote:I don't expect a Digital Reaper to have an EASY time getting into UN Spacy data core

Not all CS DRs though are equal. You have IQ and Level considerations that will effect how easy or difficult a time any given CS DR will have, and that's just the baseline skill percentage chance. When you consider other aspects they can have an even more difficult time and that can lengthen the process.

There is always the chance that the CS DR sent on the mission is not up to the task, so encountering penalties that boarder on Impossible for them should not be unheard of.

keir451 wrote:In all honesty there's no guarantee that the players will even be able to GET to a data core as they amy have to blow the ship up to keep it out of enemy hands.

They have several options though to get the Data. They can try to get through defenses and such to copy the data. Or they can physically locate said data core and remove it for transport for later analysis, likely after building adapters. Now the core may not be transportable or easily removable either, it depends on how integrated they are. Ex, I can replace the harddrive on my computer with minimal difficulty, but the BIOS memory is integrated into the Motherboard and that is something I can't easily replace (would have to do the entire MB).

keir451 wrote:So that 'alieness" has long since been lost and I highly doubt that they'd use Zentran computer language (whatever it may be) to program HUMAN computer systems built into HUMAN tech.

Why? We still use older programming languages today in some form, even if they have been superceeding by newer languages. So humans would have to have a strong need to replace the Zentran languages, but that might end up with a similar level of "alienness" for Rifts Earth exploration if the programming uses science unknown to them.

It wasn't a case of me thinking the rules were wrong, it LITERALLY didn't sound right in my head, as in my brain was messing with me kinda situation. :lol:

You gotta remember that this ship is crashed on the borders of Chi-Town and the Federation of Magic PLUS the crew has already been fighting off demons (literally) so time IS a factor here, and removing a data core from a ship under those conditions...? Doable, but from a military aspect they'd also be ordered to destroy it to keep the FoM from getting their hands on it if they can't get the data.
As for removing hardware from your computer, must not be a Mac then, those are SEALED, you can't even change the battery if it dies on you!! :eek:

I think they'd do away with the Zentran/Protoculture programming as it may contain hidden bugs (remember the famous "manual override" scene?) and initailly the Zents/Meltrans and humans weren't totally integrated so they'd want to prevent any disaffected Zents, etc. from being able to sabotage the systems, that would change over time as the races became more integrated, but by then there'd be no reason to go back to the "old" system. I don't think the programs willbe "alien" per se, any one looking at the programs would be "Well what does it DO?" until they hook it up to an RT/Macross system and watch it run.
The DR will be an NPC for this session and I've yet to roll him up so I've no idea WHAT his I.Q. is yet. :lol:

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:33 pm

keir451 wrote:That... doesn't make sense. I could see that they would do that for the Macross itself at first, but not continuously. That means that they'd have no actual control or understanding of the tech if they needed an interface.

Ah, I think you may have a Robotech-based misunderstanding here... unlike the way the Robotech story played it, where the alien technology humanity has dropped in its lap is a mystery to all but a select few and they're only blindly imitating it, in Macross humanity's actually got a pretty damn good working grasp of the Overtechnology they're using and of the science behind how it works.

In [Macross II, they basically just graduated from building their imitations of Zentradi and/or Meltrandi OT to being able to manufacture the far-superior genuine article and meld those two different overtechnology disciplines, adapting the technology to their specific needs.

keir451 wrote:If IIRC by 2040 they were to have fully grasped the Overtechnology and were using it w/out interfaces and were producing their own tech using Overtech as a base. More likely is that they use the base tech but control it using their own software programs which, admittedly, will be different due to the tech it has to control and the purpose it's put to.

I'm talking Macross II here, where humanity's technology was built around a synthesis of Zentradi and Meltrandi overtechnology. The main timeline is more additive, with human mecha and other technology using a combination of human-developed OT and Zentradi OT. Mind you the human ships in the main timeline are still using OT computers, which means they're largely putting their own high-level language on top of the existing alien-developed hardware and the low-level instruction set that drives it.

Non-programmers tend to forget that there's more than one level of software for any complex system. If you have a map of the low level signals and what information they contain and the systems looking for those signals, it's actually quite easy to graft a new control system onto the existing system without changing how it works. I do it to cars at work all the time.

keir451 wrote:Also don't forget that the humans came up with tech concepts that the Protoculture apparently didn't (transforming fighters and the Macross' transformation sequence) so humans had to develop programs to control those systems as there wouldn't be a Protoculture equivalent. [...]

The modular system was part of the Macross's original design, so modular rearrangement was probably something the developers DID think of. Transforming fighters... well... if one were to go with the obvious answer to Ken'ichi Yatagai's insinuations about the Mardook in Macross II: Lovers Again, then they DID kind of have a transforming fighter too.

But refer to what I've said previously about taking alien technology and simply applying it to a human problem. They don't NEED to reinvent the wheel.

keir451 wrote:It also seems that much of the Zentran/Meltran tech used the BDI system any physical controls were very simple systems (by comaprison), it's possible that much of the Protoculture tech was linked to a BDI system to allow direct access and control.

Nope... the controls are very intuitive, but they're purely physical in the main timeline. In the DYRLverse, only two mecha are known to use any kind of alternative control system, and that isn't a brainwave control system, it's a cybernetic implant, and even that is only a subsystem, not the primary control system. As a rule, Zentradi and Meltrandi technology uses relatively conventional keyboards and other physical interface devices.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:37 pm

keir451 wrote:As for removing hardware from your computer, must not be a Mac then, those are SEALED, you can't even change the battery if it dies on you!!

Nah, it's pretty easy if you have the right tools... they're only kept sealed by some star-shaped security screws. Twenty seconds with a screwdriver you can buy for three bucks at any Office Depot and you're good to go.

keir451 wrote:I think they'd do away with the Zentran/Protoculture programming as it may contain hidden bugs (remember the famous "manual override" scene?) [...]

That's another Robotech-related misunderstanding... there is no such thing in the original Macross. That's just an extravagantly showy signalling system, not a remote control for mecha. Britai just wanted to make sure Kamjin couldn't claim he'd never received the signal to withdraw.

keir451 wrote:and initailly the Zents/Meltrans and humans weren't totally integrated so they'd want to prevent any disaffected Zents, etc. from being able to sabotage the systems, that would change over time as the races became more integrated, but by then there'd be no reason to go back to the "old" system.

Considering those Zentradi didn't know how the technology actually worked, just how to use it, that wouldn't really be an issue. Zentradi sabotage likely wouldn't go much further than "Let's smash it".

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:47 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
keir451 wrote:As for removing hardware from your computer, must not be a Mac then, those are SEALED, you can't even change the battery if it dies on you!!

Nah, it's pretty easy if you have the right tools... they're only kept sealed by some star-shaped security screws. Twenty seconds with a screwdriver you can buy for three bucks at any Office Depot and you're good to go.

keir451 wrote:I think they'd do away with the Zentran/Protoculture programming as it may contain hidden bugs (remember the famous "manual override" scene?) [...]

That's another Robotech-related misunderstanding... there is no such thing in the original Macross. That's just an extravagantly showy signalling system, not a remote control for mecha. Britai just wanted to make sure Kamjin couldn't claim he'd never received the signal to withdraw.

keir451 wrote:and initailly the Zents/Meltrans and humans weren't totally integrated so they'd want to prevent any disaffected Zents, etc. from being able to sabotage the systems, that would change over time as the races became more integrated, but by then there'd be no reason to go back to the "old" system.

Considering those Zentradi didn't know how the technology actually worked, just how to use it, that wouldn't really be an issue. Zentradi sabotage likely wouldn't go much further than "Let's smash it".

Yeah I recall you'd mentioned the "lack" of a manual override in the OSM before. If I were them though I'd stiill be concerned with hidden protocols so it'd be easier to scrap the software entirely and write new progrmas than to spens an inordinate amout of time soritng through the data to see if it's clean.
See we DO think alike! :lol:

"Zentran smash" was about what I figured they'd be capable of as far as complex things. :lol:

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:27 pm

keir451 wrote:As for removing hardware from your computer, must not be a Mac then, those are SEALED, you can't even change the battery if it dies on you!!

It's a bare-bones build PC yes, but it shouldn't be any different with an Mac/Apple (which I haven't seen one since the mid '90s). I've done similar work on a pair of HP machines (over 10years apart in age), along with an IMB and a few other manufacturers. I've never done it with a laptop, but I know the principle is the same.

keir451 wrote:I think they'd do away with the Zentran/Protoculture programming as it may contain hidden bugs

You can patch software to fix bugs like that, but you have to go through and look for them. Just look at Microsoft products and how many security loop holes and other bugs they have to patch on a regular basis. So going native doesn't strike me as producing a better program.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:45 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:
keir451 wrote:As for removing hardware from your computer, must not be a Mac then, those are SEALED, you can't even change the battery if it dies on you!!

It's a bare-bones build PC yes, but it shouldn't be any different with an Mac/Apple (which I haven't seen one since the mid '90s). I've done similar work on a pair of HP machines (over 10years apart in age), along with an IMB and a few other manufacturers. I've never done it with a laptop, but I know the principle is the same.

keir451 wrote:I think they'd do away with the Zentran/Protoculture programming as it may contain hidden bugs

You can patch software to fix bugs like that, but you have to go through and look for them. Just look at Microsoft products and how many security loop holes and other bugs they have to patch on a regular basis. So going native doesn't strike me as producing a better program.

Oh yeah with the right tools you could probably do it (as Seto said) but for those w/out the knowledge and tools it's royal pain.
Sure you can make a patch to fix bugs, etc. but to me it still makes more sense to write a new program that actually works instead of constantly making up half measures (plus Microsoft and others are more profit driven so it makes sense that the're continuously putting out new product). Part of that is my belief that the idiots hould have gotten it right the first time around.
Now it does seem that the Zentran systems have stood the "test of time", but eventually once the humans started building their own ships they'd probably be writing new programs as the new ships don't run the same systems the Zent ships do. It just makes more sense to me that way, I guess, that they'd study and copy the "old" systems, but in the long run they'd produce their own versions of it designed to their current specifcations and those programs would be human based, though gods only know what types they'd be.