Can a Machine Person be a cosmo-knight?

[Silvananthus]

What are your thoughts on a machine person becoming a cosmo-knight folks? I had a player ask about it and I told him I would think about it. I am a little conflicted. What do you guys think? I would like opinion and I would like it well reasoned out.

I am not sure because no PPE, Mechanical in Nature, MDC already, however there are examples of MDC creatures being turned into CKs and I wanted to see what your thoughts are.

[flatline]

If you want it, go for it.

The Cosmic Forge can do anything that you as the GM says it can.

--flatline

[say652]

At the cost of Rcc Skills and Abilities, as stated in the CosmoKnight description. You are no longer Servo the Machine Person you are SERVO COSMOKNIGHT OF THE FORGE!!!!

[Silvananthus]

Well it is precisely some of the grey areas with the CK that are making me think twice. The whole idea that a CK should be able to blend in among his people and if all the racial abilities are taken away he wouldn't be able to do that effectively and the fact that machine people have no ppe are my big sticking points.

My other sticking point is that the TGE where most machine people are from is very antagonistic toward CKs.

I really like the story idea, but some of the things that make the back story interesting to me are the same things that make me worry a little about how to handle certain aspects of game play

I guess my question is really "Should a Machine Person be able to be a cosmo-kinght?"

[Giant2005]

Should a Machine Person be able to be a cosmo-kinght?

I don't think so - the lack of P.P.E. is too significant to ignore imo.
Although Machine People simulate life exceptionally, they still aren't alive. If non-living things were worthy candidates for Knighthood, I can't imagine why the Forge would take a chance on living things, not when it could just make perfectly designed robots to empower. It would never have to worry about a Knight falling again.

[Silvananthus]

Should a Machine Person be able to be a cosmo-kinght?

I don't think so - the lack of P.P.E. is too significant to ignore imo.
Although Machine People simulate life exceptionally, they still aren't alive. If non-living things were worthy candidates for Knighthood, I can't imagine why the Forge would take a chance on living things, not when it could just make perfectly designed robots to empower. It would never have to worry about a Knight falling again.

Thanks for the opinion Giant. I am not gonna allow it. No PPE for Machine people I think is too significant. I was just thinking what would happen if the Machine person CK fell and then would have PPE as a fallen knight and would be a ley-line walker or mind melter. It just seems weird and not right.

[say652]

To quote the great Mills Lane I'll allow it. With this stipulation. Roll up a normal standard as occ is written Cosmoknight. If you fall keep skills powers but now roll up a standard machine person keep the CK skills and ALL ppe is gone ALL racial abilities as well.

[Tor]

Their lacking PPE is irrelevant, the Cosmic Forge bestows the race with PPE. There is no restriction saying the race had to have it to begin with.

Although I personally like the idea of the Forge not choosing them so that they can remain chummy with Transgalactic Empire and enemies of the CosmoKs.

[eliakon]

Just to take the opposite stance I would look at the lack of PPE and say "Sorry the race has no soul, its actually just a bunch of advanced AI's. Fancy, but not Alive. Pick something else."

[drewkitty ~..~]

As a player character, no, MM are not available as CK's. For the they are not 'alive' reason. Note: this is not saying that they are not 'people' or 'sentient', only not 'alive'.

As a NPC, that is up to individual GM's.

[Tor]

I would look at the lack of PPE and say "Sorry the race has no soul"

Nowhere is it stated you require PPE to have a soul. Fox Spirits and Infernals in Mystic China both lack PPE yet clearly have souls. A mage can also permanently burn off their PPE to zero and still have a soul.

MM are not available as CK's. For the they are no 'alive' reason. Note: this is not saying that they are not 'people' or 'sentient', only not 'alive'.

Who are we to declare them not alive? The CCW declared them to be alive. Are we better than them at determining what life and sentience is? I think we should defer to our betters.

These guys are made of "living metal" which is "like living human cells". They produce children who are "a life form". They have a "Life Span". They have savings throws versus psionics and magic. Seems living to me.

Also... must Cosmo-Knights explicitly be alive?

As a player character, no, As a NPC, that is up to individual GM's.

Wouldn't both PCs and NPCs be up to the GM?

[eliakon]

I would look at the lack of PPE and say "Sorry the race has no soul"

Nowhere is it stated you require PPE to have a soul. Fox Spirits and Infernals in Mystic China both lack PPE yet clearly have souls. A mage can also permanently burn off their PPE to zero and still have a soul.

MM are not available as CK's. For the they are no 'alive' reason. Note: this is not saying that they are not 'people' or 'sentient', only not 'alive'.

Who are we to declare them not alive? The CCW declared them to be alive. Are we better than them at determining what life and sentience is? I think we should defer to our betters.

I don't feel that C.J. Carella is my moral better.

These guys are made of "living metal" which is "like living human cells". They produce children who are "a life form". They have a "Life Span". They have savings throws versus psionics and magic. Seems living to me.

Which is why I said "I would look at"....in my personal opinion they are not alive. they are a fancy version of a Type 3 robot intelligence. Since they were written for Rifts not N&SS/MC they don't have chi provided. My personal call there is the same. MP have 0 chi, 0 ppe, 0 isp....they are MACHINES who act like people. Your personal mileage may vary.

Also... must Cosmo-Knights explicitly be alive?

Since I find the idea of a CK Toaster to be ludicrous, I would think that the discussions about race and such imply that yes, you have to be alive. For a rules stance.......maybe, though a good way to check is 'can something that isn't alive take an OCC' and start from there.

[Svartalf]

No PPE, No psionics, invulnerability to most toxics and radiations, no signs of being living sentients... I go with Eliakon, these are robot intelligences rather than living beings in the classic sense of the term...

Now, if you, as a GM decide so, the Forge presumably could infuse one with PPE and make it a knight, we're talking of a god like or more powerful entity there... but then, there would likely be a HUGE number of Machine Knights, given how the race is described as being heroic in resisting its original Masters en masse... If I were GM, that would not be the case and the Forge does not make CKs from sentient robots, even heroic ones.

[Nightmask]

No PPE, No psionics, no signs of being living sentients... I go with Eliakon, these are robot intelligences rather than living beings in the classic sense of the term...

Now, if you, as a GM decide so, the Forge presumably could infuse one with PPE and make it a knight, we're talking of a god like or more powerful entity there... but then, there would likely be a HUGE number of Machine Knights, given how the race is described as being heroic in resisting its original Masters en masse... If I were GM, that would not be the case and the Forge does not make CKs from sentient robots, even heroic ones.

I'd have to go with this, while they're sentient and self-aware they're still purely machines, lacking any of the properties of life that among other things magic requires to qualify as alive. Without being alive to the point of having PPE they wouldn't qualify as alive for the Forge to connect with.

[flatline]

I'd have to go with this, while they're sentient and self-aware they're still purely machines, lacking any of the properties of life that among other things magic requires to qualify as alive.

We're purely machines made out of mostly organic material. Machine People are purely machines made out of mostly inorganic material.

Unless we have reason to believe that the Forge requires candidates to be made of organic material, it's an artificial distinction.

--flatline

[Svartalf]

Can the Forge turn a No PPE sentient creature into an enhanced PPE based being?

[Tor]

I don't feel that C.J. Carella is my moral better.

The CCW's stance is not CJ's stance. Writing what an NPC thinks doesn't mean the author thinks it.

Which is why I said "I would look at"....in my personal opinion they are not alive. they are a fancy version of a Type 3 robot intelligence. Since they were written for Rifts not N&SS/MC they don't have chi provided. My personal call there is the same. MP have 0 chi, 0 ppe, 0 isp....they are MACHINES who act like people. Your personal mileage may vary.

Being at 0 or negative chi doesn't mean you aren't alive. Just that you don't heal normally, which they wouldn't, without their nanobots. Presumably an EMP would halt their healing.

Since I find the idea of a CK Toaster to be ludicrous, I would think that the discussions about race and such imply that yes, you have to be alive.

Misleading analogy, toaster doesn't fit the example unless you mean a sentient one like Brave Little.

For a rules stance.......maybe, though a good way to check is 'can something that isn't alive take an OCC' and start from there.

OCC attribute requirements are a good place to begin here. Though it'd be nice if Palladium gave those minimums to everything. Open-ended classes like peasants/vagabonds open to anyone just muddy that water. I don't think it would have killed them to tack on a "minimum IQ 2" or something there.

No PPE, No psionics, invulnerability to most toxics and radiations, no signs of being living sentients... I go with Eliakon, these are robot intelligences rather than living beings in the classic sense of the term...

These observations are irrelevant. There are plenty of races without psionics, examples have been given of PPEless races, and being immune to toxins or other things is a property tougher races can possess.

I don't follow what you mean by 'no signs of being living sentients'. What 'signs' would these be exactly?

Now, if you, as a GM decide so, the Forge presumably could infuse one with PPE and make it a knight, we're talking of a god like or more powerful entity there... but then, there would likely be a HUGE number of Machine Knights, given how the race is described as being heroic in resisting its original Masters en masse... If I were GM, that would not be the case and the Forge does not make CKs from sentient robots, even heroic ones.

I like this too, but I would think this would be due to the Forge's preferences (dislike for supernaturals and machine life-forms) and not due to non-life.

while they're sentient and self-aware they're still purely machines, lacking any of the properties of life

What properties? Most definitions of life I come across describe general properties that this species possesses.

that among other things magic requires to qualify as alive.

What does magic have to do with this? CosmoKs and the Forge aren't explicitly magic.

Without being alive to the point of having PPE they wouldn't qualify as alive for the Forge to connect with.

Unsourced house rules, nowhere does it say the Forge requires you to possess PPE to choose you.

Can the Forge turn a No PPE sentient creature into an enhanced PPE based being?

Yup. Otherwise it probably would have told us that mages who burn off all their PPE can't become CosmoKs. Or explicitly mentioned a lack of Machine People knights while mentioning the supernaturals who haven't happened.

[Svartalf]

I don't feel that C.J. Carella is my moral better.

The CCW's stance is not CJ's stance. Writing what an NPC thinks doesn't mean the author thinks it.

No PPE, No psionics, invulnerability to most toxics and radiations, no signs of being living sentients... I go with Eliakon, these are robot intelligences rather than living beings in the classic sense of the term...

These observations are irrelevant. There are plenty of races without psionics, examples have been given of PPEless races, and being immune to toxins or other things is a property tougher races can possess.

I don't follow what you mean by 'no signs of being living sentients'. What 'signs' would these be exactly?

Signs of biological activity, as opposed to being pure mechanical sentience... On your side, their quasi biological mode of reproduction puts them near the living, but I'm not sure it's enough to qualify. In S&SS terms, I wonder if they have chi or not. The fact that, in Japan (also by Carella) Chi is replaced by PPE, and tht Wujcik retranslated it as ISP in Rifts China, neither of which Machine people have, tends to direct me toward a negative.

Now, if you, as a GM decide so, the Forge presumably could infuse one with PPE and make it a knight, we're talking of a god like or more powerful entity there... but then, there would likely be a HUGE number of Machine Knights, given how the race is described as being heroic in resisting its original Masters en masse... If I were GM, that would not be the case and the Forge does not make CKs from sentient robots, even heroic ones.

I like this too, but I would think this would be due to the Forge's preferences (dislike for supernaturals and machine life-forms) and not due to non-life.

If I assume That the Forge does not care for Life, but only for Spirit, then I stand by my opinion that there would be a huge number of highly spirited Machine Knights

while they're sentient and self-aware they're still purely machines, lacking any of the properties of life

What properties? Most definitions of life I come across describe general properties that this species possesses.

Sentience =/= life force. A robot can have the one and utterly lack the other

that among other things magic requires to qualify as alive.

What does magic have to do with this? CosmoKs and the Forge aren't explicitly magic.

I'll side with Tor there, the Undead aren't alive, but they are supermagical, for just one thing that pops in my head. Got some justification (text or reasoning to explain why the magical has to be alive? Are mineral aliens technically alive?

Without being alive to the point of having PPE they wouldn't qualify as alive for the Forge to connect with.

Unsourced house rules, nowhere does it say the Forge requires you to possess PPE to choose you.

But since a Knight is a real PPE plant, can the Forge give PPE to a kind of creature that does not normally have any? ($64000 question)

Can the Forge turn a No PPE sentient creature into an enhanced PPE based being?

Yup. Otherwise it probably would have told us that mages who burn off all their PPE can't become CosmoKs. Or explicitly mentioned a lack of Machine People knights while mentioning the supernaturals who haven't happened.

Uh, what? Burn off PPE? what's that? Trained mages are generally not chosen to be CKs anyway, it's the Fallen who pick up magic to use all the PPE they have... and neither is a Machine Knight ever mentioned in a Canon book

[eliakon]

Or put another way.
The rules are not clear. While there are precedents for either interpretation, there is no official rules either way, so.....a GM will have to make a ruling for their own game.

[Tor]

Svartelf replies:

Signs of biological activity, as opposed to being pure mechanical sentience...

Biology is the study of life, the study of Machine People would be a form of biology if we consider them living.

On your side, their quasi biological mode of reproduction puts them near the living, but I'm not sure it's enough to qualify.

I don't see how it's quasi, this species exhibits all the requirements needed to be considered living. We know life forms do not have to be organic to be considered alive, we know they don't need PPE, what else is there?

The only real argument I could see against MPs being living is their lack of a PE attribute. Since Chi is determined by PE, one could possibly take the stance that one needs chi to be alive... I guess... *shrug*

In S&SS terms, I wonder if they have chi or not. The fact that, in Japan (also by Carella) Chi is replaced by PPE, and tht Wujcik retranslated it as ISP in Rifts China, neither of which Machine people have, tends to direct me toward a negative.

These did not replace chi, instead, ISP/PPE powers were created that emulated chi powers. You can have chi without having either of these, case in point, foxes/infernals.

If I assume That the Forge does not care for Life, but only for Spirit, then I stand by my opinion that there would be a huge number of highly spirited Machine Knights

Ah, but this idealizes the Forge. What if, possibly being a mechanical creation itself, it is prejudiced against fellow machines, or fears what empowered machines may do?

Sentience =/= life force. A robot can have the one and utterly lack the other

Has Palladium defined 'life force' for us? In a sense that a definition would work with all known life forms?

since a Knight is a real PPE plant, can the Forge give PPE to a kind of creature that does not normally have any? ($64000 question)

The OCC says they get PPE, so I am inclined to say yes.

Furthermore, since there's nothing actually preventing a Machine Person from becoming a Cyber-Knight, they would also get the PPE and the Psi-Sword from that OCC as well. As incredibly odd as that seems. Sot4 made it clear that even those not having any psionics (with no exception made for races that lack standard psionics AKA have 'none') would get the powers.

Trained mages are generally not chosen to be CKs anyway

Source?

it's the Fallen who pick up magic to use all the PPE they have... and neither is a Machine Knight ever mentioned in a Canon book

While Fallen do this, and I would assume far more often than CosmoKs, there is nothing at all stating that CosmoKs can't be former mages (though they would lose all previous skills upon changing) or that they are prevented from learning magic without falling.

Books don't need to mention Machine Knights. We are generally lacking in any significant number of Cosmo Knight or Fallen Cosmo Knight NPCs in published books. Off hand the only NPC I can actually recall is that single human Cosmo-Knight imprisoned in Dyval. Have any others even been named? There are some unspecified knights mentioned in SA2 but that's kinda inconsequential since we don't get names or races of them. Races don't need an explicit example to be considered. The only restriction we know of is that there aren't any supernatural races known to be changed, and MPs ain't supies.