Unrest Over New Update for Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter

[Asterios]

I would HOPE they wouldn't endorse Duncan's viewpoint considering how belligerent, ignorant and down right vitriolic he was towards any who disagreed with him.

yeah Duncan was just plain rude, he was exactly like Zero (who palladium shut down) except differing opinion.

[bielmic]

I would HOPE they wouldn't endorse Duncan's viewpoint considering how belligerent, ignorant and down right vitriolic he was towards any who disagreed with him.

yeah Duncan was just plain rude, he was exactly like Zero (who palladium shut down) except differing opinion.

They differ in one key way. Palladium took time out of their busy schedule to post multiple times (something they haven't done regularly since last Fall) to disagree with Zero.

In the end, I simply suspect Palladium has nothing new to say and are hoping that this (like the Miriya/Max debacle) will just blow over and people will forget about it. It may simmer down but (like Max/Miriya) people won't forget but rather just add it to the list of things that they point to that went wrong with the post-kickstarter campaign.

[Jorel]

comments on the update are slowing down. Any guesses what the newest update will have to offer?

[Bad_Syntax]

comments on the update are slowing down. Any guesses what the newest update will have to offer?

I heard the miniatures will be made out of chocolate.

[Forar]

comments on the update are slowing down. Any guesses what the newest update will have to offer?

I heard the miniatures will be made out of chocolate.

Funny, I have a friend who can arrange that.

Though our next stop is properly sealing one of my Dwarven Forge Dungeon Tiles to see how that turns out.

Because chocolate dungeon tiles would be pretty neat.

[jaymz]

comments on the update are slowing down. Any guesses what the newest update will have to offer?

I heard the miniatures will be made out of chocolate.

Funny, I have a friend who can arrange that.

Though our next stop is properly sealing one of my Dwarven Forge Dungeon Tiles to see how that turns out.

Because chocolate dungeon tiles would be pretty neat.

[jaymz]

comments on the update are slowing down. Any guesses what the newest update will have to offer?

I heard the miniatures will be made out of chocolate.

Funny, I have a friend who can arrange that.

Though our next stop is properly sealing one of my Dwarven Forge Dungeon Tiles to see how that turns out.

Because chocolate dungeon tiles would be pretty neat.

Forar, you are a lucky man. If I had gone and gotten my coffee before I read this, I'd have had to hunt you down and hurt you as payback for hot coffee out the nose.

Otherwise, I could just see this one. "Look, you killed the Orc, so you get to eat it."
"Okay, you open the chest and find out it is peanut butter filled! You have found the legendary Reesie chest and your party gets surprise in the next d4 combats by getting the monsters to argue over who put peanut butter in their chocolate...or vice versa."
"Guys, we have to reschedule, my toddler ate the steps down into the dungeon."

Now it is worse....my wife used to do chocolates all the time...so, I wonder if...

[Forar]

Knowing a skilled chocolatier has its advantages.

[Bad_Syntax]

Heh, time for a pitch to HG? Although I'd think there would be too much detail on most models to make it possible, like the bits sticking out of a Zentradi Battlepod. OTOH, maybe if you did the base part of the pod in chocolate and then had the foil wrap have the detais on it. Oh, for the day when we can 3D print in chocolate, that will be a boon for a lot of holidays.

Uhhh, I ordered a 3d chocolate printed bar for my wife for christmas, there was a kickstarter for it I'm too lazy to look up right now.

The REAL question is if we can get chocolate robotech miniatures that look better than the plastics in that last update!

[Jorel]

Attempting to start some dialog so here is a starter...

What are the top 5 questions the community here would like to ask PB after the most recent 2 updates on the Robotect RPG Tactics Kickstarter page?
What are 5 suggestions we'd like to see based on what we were shown and told in the last 2 updates there?

Let us get a positive dialog started and make it constructive and maybe we can provide them with some cohesive feedback. Take the most common answers by different posters and come up with a top 10 for each.

[Jorel]

over 3 weeks later and we get some answers and the unrest seems to abate.

[Bad_Syntax]

I didn't care for all the answers (mostly on the seams thing, which I think hurt the detail more than enhance it), but it increased my confidence in the project to a positive level.

The sprues are awesome to see, and scary as hell knowing I have *hundreds* of them coming and assembling over 1000 units from sprues like that.

[Jorel]

The haters can hate at least we collected and got answers.

[Jorel]

Answers is still answers and that is all I wanted out there.

[Kryptt]

The pod sprue looks good. I just don't like how PB still continues to lie that it's the only way to make the minis. It's made worse when Wayne tries to come off as an expert while being a newb to miniatures.

[Jorel]

Newest update has 70 likes so far. That is a sign of improvement.

[Kryptt]

Newest update has 70 likes so far. That is a sign of improvement.

Or acceptance. No matter what we will be stuck with some models with seams in the front and parts broken in half for no extra reason other than to say this way or the high way. Sigh

On the plus side when I get my pledge I'll ask my wife, if the lovely lady would like to play RRT.

[Jorel]

That's a bonus on the wife part. Hope she's game.

[Forar]

Yeah, as I noted previously, "likes" isn't necessarily a strict sign of endorsement, it's a judge of engagement. As in, what portion of the backers can be arsed to click the little button. And that number is indeed up! Around 2.5x the average of the previous 10 or so updates. That's good news in general, but it's still only a tiny fraction of the backers overall.

Thus, it's important, but it's not unparalleled success either. One must retain perspective on that.

[Jorel]

It is a turn in the right direction

[Spinachcat]

The haters can hate at least we collected and got answers.

Good job making that happen. I am very glad the questions were addressed, even if the answers aren't what I had hoped.

[Jorel]

Not surprisingly the negative voices over there are just finding alternate things to use to stir up trouble. Now they are suggesting PB will be selling RRT ay GenCon before they ship to backers. It really is just a pathetic lot who want to stir up drama. The reason I wanted the questions out there is because that lot drowns out any reasonable complaints with all their chicken little antics.

[bielmic]

Not surprisingly the negative voices over there are just finding alternate things to use to stir up trouble. Now they are suggesting PB will be selling RRT ay GenCon before they ship to backers. It really is just a pathetic lot who want to stir up drama. The reason I wanted the questions out there is because that lot drowns out any reasonable complaints with all their chicken little antics.

The only obvious attempt at stirring up drama I've seen recently was your own very surprising and out of character outburst(s) on Friday. If people have switched topics, it's because there is no shortage of entirely preventable things that have gone wrong or badly with this campaign since 48 hours post kickstarter (starting with the infamous October early delivery update).

The questions were asked and somewhat answered; the overriding message is that palladium doesn't care about what those bringing up the issues think (after all... they've been officially classified as just a vocal minority much like the 1% of people who want the RPG rules to be updated) and we're getting what Palladium deems best regardless of any outcry. Palladium has its own cabal of 24 made up of family friends, paid employees, volunteers who want to be employees, and "true fans" that they look to for guidance and to gauge the direction of the wind... anyone not in that circle is marginalized as needed.

If anything, the change in focus is a practical one as Palladium selling Robotech stuff (whether more exclusive minis or airshipped core boxes) to non-backers at cons before getting backers their product is the NEXT THING PALLADIUM CAN SCREW UP. Doing that fits in both with what other companies have done in the past and more importantly fits in with what palladium did last year as well. It makes sense to just move on and not harp on what can't be changed... isn't that what you suggested should happen? Pledgers are constructively just informing palladium what the next misstep that they can avoid is.

[jaymz]

Personally I have no issue with palladium selling direct at GC. As long as I get my stuff before Joe Shmoe down the street can get it at the local shop I'm fine with the GC scenario. That is assuming anyone or my local shop even has interest in getting this game.

[Forar]

That's a reasonable stance to take, and I'm positive you're not the only one.

Personally, I think it'd come down to a matter of scale. If due to timing or some other reasons, they couldn't get backer boxes out in time, and sold a couple hundred boxes at GC, but then spent the following couple weeks firing off every last backer box? Eh, it is what it is.

But if they sold at Gencon and didn't get Wave One out until, like, October, yeah, I'd probably be an bit grouchy over the matter. We already went over the "calm down, selling Max and Miriya at Gencon doesn't make backers 'second class citizens'" argument last summer. But full on boxes and expansions? People playing the game we funded months before our stuff even went out? That'd be awfully frustrating.

Which, TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, it merely provided as a hypothetical example for context. It's a nuanced matter, and a simple "yes or no" doesn't do justice to the factors at play. I don't need to be the absolute first person in town to play the game, but I'd rather not wait another quarter for my box while hundreds or thousands of players who happened to get to Gencon got a head start on that giant assembly line of figures.

[bielmic]

Personally I have no issue with palladium selling direct at GC. As long as I get my stuff before Joe Shmoe down the street can get it at the local shop I'm fine with the GC scenario. That is assuming anyone or my local shop even has interest in getting this game.

And that is the "letter of the law" so to speak in their backers before distributors proclamation. I don't think it is breaking their promise to sell to non-backers at gencon but, much like miriya/max, it breaks the spirit of the law and will dash alot of existing fans' enthusiasm to see people get their stuff sooner than those who put in month over a year earlier. YMMV. In any case, if folks are complaining about it then they're also forewarning palladium about the next opportunity to insert foot into mouth. Of course, if things go as planned, all 5,000+ of us will have our items before Gencon because palladium will have a dedicated team of 10 people (the 6 employees, two volunteers from the latest murmur, and 2 ninja division folks) shipping out stuff. Assuming that they get all of wave one cut, injected, packaged, slow boat shipped, and through customs in the next 10 weeks then they'll have July to get out the packages. As long as each person does nothing else for four full weeks of July and assuming 6 day work weeks (gleaned from the murmurs of the last few years), that means each of those 10 will have to collect, sort, double check, and package 22+ pledges every day to get the stuff out by gencon.

Now.. I don't have much manufacturing experience (actually none) but the above seems very unlikely. If I were palladium, I would take a hard look at the delivery date they last posted (which was stealth amended in a comment to include July but never officially changed in an update) and change it as needed based on facts and not backside sunburn.

[Jorel]

To me I'd spend my time worrying about real world problems and not made up fantasy ones.

[bielmic]

To me I'd spend my time worrying about real world problems and not made up fantasy ones.

Let me know how those peace for all mankind and world hunger things turns out now that they have your undivided attention. I'll keep focus on what I've already paid Palladium for in the meantime.

[Jorel]

I paid them too and I knew what I was getting into. Patience is a virtue or some BS, and stressing will give you grey hair at the least and a heart condition at the worst.

[Forar]

7,800 posts in under 4 years? Yeah man, focus on the real world issues and not this fantasy make believe stuff. You'll be at the top of your field in like a year if you put that kind of time and effort into things.

... or you could not try to redirect things with a truly transparent fallacy. That'd be nice.

[bielmic]

I paid them too and I knew what I was getting into. Patience is a virtue or some BS, and stressing will give you grey hair at the least and a heart condition at the worst.

Eh... with my genetics, the baldness will likely be much more noticeable than any greying. Patience is not a limitless resource and I pretty much ignored (other than for comedic purposes) the October date and padded on another 2-3 for patience onto the Nov/Dec date. My patience has largely run out now that 2015 is likely for full completion and an 8 month delay is looking increasingly unlikely for ANY fullfillment. Then factor in the quality and design of various minis that we've been shown on top of the previous missteps in communication and.. well... lets just say I wouldn't be blowing sunshine up any bums if I happened to meet the Palladium crew at a convention.

[Jorel]

I'm not gonna pat them on the back, but I'll shake his hand for making a killer setting.

[Forar]

Still is, sadly.

Thankfully, it being complete excrement is changing that, but it still comes up now and then, and time has not improved it.

[Jorel]

I'm not victim blaming and if I commit a crime I'm not aware of I'm pretty sure it is still a crime. I don't think ignorance is usually an excuse in regards to the law so that is a terrible analogy. I think people honestly didn't know that Palladium had the reputation it has for delivering late product. And think those that did know and backed in spite of that knowledge are getting exactly what we deserve for trusting them in this rookie endeavor.

[Kryptt]

My experience with PB was in the 90's when I didn't have (dial up) internet access, so I didn't know PB was plagued with so many problems until after the ks ended. That's when I learned what it's like to work at PB when I saw the bill coffin post on RPG.net. It's also when I learned about the CoT, the tardiness on products ALL the time, the unwillingness to listen to all fans, the bullying from paid employees to the non paid ones, protecting certain posters when they insult others, dividing the fanbase and I didn't even go into all the missed opportunities with RRT.

As much as I've wanted macross miniatures I wouldn't have backed RRT if I had known all this. On the plus side PB won't have to deal with me again when the SC ks starts or any other. Maybe.

[Forar]

Oh, if there's another campaign (as opposed to simply funding it more traditionally or through retail sales, assuming RRT is enough of a hit to do so), I imagine there'll be a solid number of $1 backers taking them to task over every last inch of the campaign.

Ideally they will have learned a lot from this campaign and be able to better judge what it will take to deliver a quality product in a timely fashion.

But if it's another "8 months, maybe 6" things, the laughter will echo across the land.

[Spinachcat]

Personally I have no issue with palladium selling direct at GC.

I'm mixed on that as I was mixed on last year's Max/Miriya debacle. I don't care too much about when I get RTT, only that I get a A+ awesome game with terrific minis BUT I do recognize that KS backers have expectations of protocol and one of those expectations is that backers get their goodies first.

As someone who does lots of consulting, I am always concerned about the early management of customer expectations and unfortunately, PB has allowed PR for RTT to get out of control and that's bad news in the online age where posts/threads/blogs/videos just hang there forever to scare off future potential customers.

It's like bad reviews on Yelp.

[Forar]

Agreed. I can see why it'd probably be a smart move financially, but that comes up against the potential backlash/negativity it would (let's be real, there's no doubt it'd generate some vocal opposition). Even wrapped up in colourful language about wanting to help fans that missed the campaign, and the prices being so much more than the massive deal we got, it'd still stir some discord.

If nothing else, had this been even remotely close to its original estimate, even just for wave one, we wouldn't be in this situation. So I can kind of empathize, and kind say "well, this is how you get ants..."

Wait, no, that last part is Archer.

But a big part of product management is managing people's expectations. Perhaps the situation has changed from their perspective, but the backers are still looking at statements about getting these things before they go to retail, and it's some rules lawyering technicalities to argue that Palladium wouldn't be acting as a retailer while moving dozens or hundreds of RRT boxes to attendees.

Obviously it's a non-issue for now, we're still 4 months away from Gencon itself, but considering production hasn't begun in earnest yet, the likelihood of even part of wave one going out before they have to send a significant number of people off to Gencon (and then avoid the plague they likely bring back with them) puts a giant, "24 style clock" ticking down.

[Jorel]

you are wanting it to be there, but I am not seeing it

[Forar]

Perhaps it's been alluded to too obliquely.

EDIT: Post edited to remove rape reference. NMI

The backers were told that Ninja Division was doing the heavy lifting. Palladium's participation was downplayed for months, about how they were just giving a little feedback on the rules, and verifying the work was up to snuff, etc, etc, and then as the months went on, ND faded into the background, PB took the spotlight, and now seem to have a stranglehold on the project.

You're free to argue that it's hyperbole to call Backers "victims", but telling people "you should've known better" when they're expressing discontent is, like, text book victim blaming, at least from their perspective.

They think/feel they are victims.

And you are telling them that it's their fault. For not doing enough research, for believing that Palladium might be turning over a new leaf, for listening when they all said they were 98% final done and were going to go to manufacturing in 45 days, and were going to deliver 2 months early? Shenanigans. Throwing it in someone's face that they took a group at their word is cold and uncalled for.

Thus; victim, blamed.

[Jorel]

If I make a poor financial investment...am I a victim? The signs were all there for those who cared to look.

[Forar]

If the reason that investment was poor is because of mismanagement, misleading statements that brought you in, and failure to meet the standards set by the project outline, yeah, actually, and in other systems you'd even have several options for recourse should you choose them.

If we were literal investors (we're not, but if we were) and the project went 7-12+ months over target, PB would probably have a hell of a lot more to worry about than some guys grousing on the forums and comments (though with the internet and word of mouth, that may be something worth being concerned about anyway).

[Seto Kaiba]

You're free to argue that it's hyperbole to call Backers "victims", but telling people "you should've known better" when they're expressing discontent is, like, text book victim blaming, at least from their perspective.

They think/feel they are victims.

Many certainly will... and they'll probably make the following points:

It's ridiculous for the Kickstarter backers to behave as victims, because you are investors making an investment in the development of a game. The ONLY promise that was made to you was that they would deliver a Robotech tabletop war game. The Kickstarter promised nothing regarding the quality of the finished product.

Kickstarters miss their delivery targets all the time, that isn't new. Palladium also misses delivery targets all the time, so that isn't new either. Hyperbore like "world class" and "mouthwatering" are so common as to be meaningless in advertising, nobody expects them to be backed up.



Ultimately, the Kickstarter's backers are not victims by any stretch of the imagination. If you invest in a company and you get burned on your investment because you had unrealistic expectations or you didn't bother to do your research beforehand, the only person you have to blame is yourself. That's basically what happened here. What happened was they got so excited at the prospect of a new Robotech thing that they threw money at the project without first stopping to give any thought to whether what they thought they were buying into is what the developers were actually promising to deliver (it wasn't), and whether the promises being made were realistic or achievable.

[Forar]

Yeah, we've been over this at length.

Disagree.

[Jorel]

you can disagree but that doesn't make either of us a victim. I know I don't consider myself one.

[Forar]

How you feel has utterly zero bearing on how others feel.

Those who are happy with how things are going are welcome to remain as blissful as they like.

But it would take some epic mental gymnastics to sum up the now lengthy discussions on the issues of communication transparency, delays, actual apparent quality and all the others floating around in this mire and say 'well, I don't feel this way so clearly it's crazy to feel this way'.

I explained why, as best I understand and can express it, some people feel negatively, and how some people's statements might be construed in a negative light (such as our now impressive tangent on the concept of victim blaming). Whether or not you feel like a victim or are unhappy is utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand. Others do, have said as much, and the responses given have been found lacking.

[ScottBernard]

you can disagree but that doesn't make either of us a victim. I know I don't consider myself one.

But you do plenty of other times.

[Tiree]

If I make a poor financial investment...am I a victim? The signs were all there for those who cared to look.

This is why I didn't back the RRT. Even though I have been tempted to many of times, and even thought about purchasing the initial box set when its released.

Right now - If I plan on purchasing any RRT mini's - they will be purchased on the 2nd hand market at a fraction of their initial price.

[Seto Kaiba]

How you feel has utterly zero bearing on how others feel.

I understand that, and I'm sure Jorel does as well... but, in light of the actual circumstances, the claims of victim-hood by the Kickstarter backers are extraordinarily difficult to take seriously for most.

But it would take some epic mental gymnastics to sum up the now lengthy discussions on the issues of communication transparency, delays, actual apparent quality and all the others floating around in this mire and say 'well, I don't feel this way so clearly it's crazy to feel this way'.

Eh... not as much as you'd think. Especially if you've had any personal experiences providing support to small businesses. The communication issues can only be described as "par for the course", exactly what I'd expect from a tiny outfit like Palladium. The delays? So utterly typical of Palladium and also common occurrences on Kickstarter that nobody with even a passing familiarity with Palladium can claim that's an unexpected turn of events. The quality issues? Same story... it's their first go at a miniatures game, so the miniatures being awkward was almost a mathematical certainty.

It takes very little in the way of "mental gymnastics" to dismiss most of the complaints for exactly what they are... unrealistic expectations not being met, and bewildering failures of pattern recognition by the fans who often admit they DO know better.

It's not victim-blaming if we say you're not a victim because the crime only happened in your imagination. If we were victim-blaming, we'd be saying it's your fault... that you did something to provoke Palladium or Ninja Division into delivering the product late, of indifferent quality, etc., and clearly that's not true (and I'd doubt it's even possible.)

[Forar]

Xia is being produced by one guy, and manages to drop a small novel detailing the work going on roughly once a week.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/14 ... em-0/posts

Poor communication is not a given based on company size.