TW Item Creation Question

[Silvananthus]

I have been through the TW item creation rules and they do allow for other casters to help/contribute spells to the creation of an item. Player asked a question that I haven't run into before so I am here on the boards. If a shifter or for that matter any caster that gets decreased PPE costs for spells and contributes one of those spells to the creation of the TW item does the item benefit from the cost reduction of the spell PPE requirements.

Follow up question: Are class dependent spell-like abilities like the shifter dimensional portal home able to be transformed into TW items or stored in Talisman?

Thanks in advance for your answers because I am having a little trouble deciding and can't find cannon answers.

[Mack]

Good questions, but I don't think there are any canon answers to them.

[Akashic Soldier]

Good questions, but I don't think there are any canon answers to them.

Mack is right, there is nothing on it officially. However, I would tend to think no. The reduced P.P.E. cost is a product of the shifter's training and talent regarding those spells. I don't believe that can be passed on to an item. After all, they do have rules for reducing/removing the cost already. Maybe you could use the "Shifter aided in its construction" angle to reduce the P.P.E. cost via its design but I don't think you can just tack that on as a freebie. At least, that is my opinion.

[Blue_Lion]

I would have to say that it falls under the category of GMs discretion. Remember the player only comes up with the idea for the device what it actually does is up to the GM. The rules in are intended to help guide not set in stone what a TW can do the end result is always up the GM.

[Silvananthus]

Thanks guys,

I appreciate the comments so far. I don't always have all the books at my disposal and I wasn't sure if somewhere else there were new guidelines besides the RUE. I am glad I might have gone crazy looking for some canon response but I think I will just house rule these questions.

[ShadowLogan]

If a shifter or for that matter any caster that gets decreased PPE costs for spells and contributes one of those spells to the creation of the TW item does the item benefit from the cost reduction of the spell PPE requirements.

I would have to say no for Wizard class spell users, but Yes for Specialist class (Necromancy, Elemental, Ocean, etc) invocation when using the appropriate Gem as spell cost is included for Wizard class spells, but not the specialist (which each get a single gem type) indicting the spells base is used w/o any modifiers. IMHO.

[Tor]

If one rules that the class halving bonus doesn't pass on (which seems about right, I don't think using a Ring of Elder to aid a TW would help permanently either, unless you build the ring INTO the machine) there is another issue though...

What if the TW device is used by a member of a magical class that does get this bonus?

Like for example, say a Conjurer who knows Annihilate helps a TW build an Annihilation Cannon. Then a Shifter uses that canon. Does he activate at half since he's one of the 1/2 classes?

Another issue: some FoM spells are castable by Warlocks at reduced PPE. Does this mean we should use the full FoM PPE cost even if the low-PPE version is the only version a Warlock knows?

[Mack]

IMHO... the PPE needed by a TW device is set when it's created and does not fluctuate based on who picks it up. (Remember that the device is casting the spell, not the person holding it.) With that rule-o-thumb in mind, then:
-- If Conjurer helps build the TW Annihilate Cannon, then the device requires the full PPE from all users.
-- If a Shifter helps build the TW Annihilate Cannon, then the device requires half the normal PPE from all users. (Subject to GM approval since the rules don't expressly address this.)

[Tor]

Both conjurors and shifters pay half cost for the spell though...

Seems kinda mega-broken to be half-cost for everyone merely because a secondary builder can cast at half.

If it's the device casting the item then it isn't the caster... although level/spell strength is retained... so maybe it would transfer? *shrug*

I would sorta like to restrict this to TWs only being able to incorporate their own discounts though. Like the dual-class gods who are both TW and necromancer/shifter or whatever.

[Mack]

Both conjurors and shifters pay half cost for the spell though...

My mistake. Thought Conjurors paid full price.

Seems kinda mega-broken to be half-cost for everyone merely because a secondary builder can cast at half.

If it's the device casting the item then it isn't the caster... although level/spell strength is retained... so maybe it would transfer? *shrug*

I would sorta like to restrict this to TWs only being able to incorporate their own discounts though. Like the dual-class gods who are both TW and necromancer/shifter or whatever.

Can't dispute that at all. I typically lean on the conservative side when it comes to combinations that might give a significant effect.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
Follow up question: Are class dependent spell-like abilities like the shifter dimensional portal home able to be transformed into TW items or stored in Talisman?
...snip

There is not Canon Text allowing Racial or Class abilities to be put into a TW device. Nether has this Idea been mentioned in the canon text.

[taalismn]

snip...
Follow up question: Are class dependent spell-like abilities like the shifter dimensional portal home able to be transformed into TW items or stored in Talisman?
...snip

There is not Canon Text allowing Racial or Class abilities to be put into a TW device. Nether has this Idea been mentioned in the canon text.

Maybe a nasty new slant to Rune Weapons?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Rune Stuff can be wild-cards, if looking at the ones detailed in the books.

[eliakon]

My personal view is that the Device is not a Shifter, so it does not cast it like a Shifter does. The Device casts the spell as if it was a caster of X level. But that it doesn't have a class and as such does not have the ability to use class powers. The reduced cost of the Shifter only occurs when the Shifter casts it, if the Shifter teaches the spell to another caster (builds a TW Device) the second caster casts the spell at the cost for that casters class (Full -Gem Reductions) not at the cost for the Shifter.

[Tor]

There is not Canon Text allowing Racial or Class abilities to be put into a TW device. Nether has this Idea been mentioned in the canon text.

Wouldn't spell strength and level of experience qualify as class abilities?

[Mack]

There is not Canon Text allowing Racial or Class abilities to be put into a TW device. Nether has this Idea been mentioned in the canon text.

Wouldn't spell strength

I find no reference indicating that the builder's spell strength is transferred into a TW device.

and level of experience qualify as class abilities?

The level of experience (or device level) is chosen by the builder, limited by his own level.

Regardless, I would not define either of those as class abilities.

[Shorty Lickens]

yeah the rules for any item creation are really just general guidelines.
You may wanna make up some house rules for what is allowed for each OCC.

As an example: I might allow a shifter to summon outside help (supernatural) in constructing items so he could have more powers or unusual effects, but not necessarily reduced costs.

[Tor]

Experience levels are acquired by going up on a table specific to a class, seems class-ish to me.

Flipped through FoM which unlike main book I know had a bunch of 'save vs magic' offensive TW items... whether or not strength is transferred does seem pretty ignored. I feel there might be some item out there which can clarify it for us but I don't know where to begin looking.