An alternate thought...

[Scott Gibbons]

Hi all,

I've mostly been an observer (no lame, name-related joke intended) in the discussions about the lateness of RRT, as I've felt that I have little of value that I could contribute. I realized today however that there is an underlying assumption in pretty much all of the threads on this topic that seems to be going commented on. With that realization I thought I would post this, mostly as a poll of what others thought. I am in no way claiming any special or insider knowledge - this entire post is simple speculation on my part.

So the underlying assumption that I have noticed is this - all of the present threads are attributing the delays of the release of RRT as being solely (or 100%, if you're of a mathematical bend) the fault of Palladium Books. However, we know that there are other entities involved in this project that could be greatly affecting the pace of the release; three that I can think of - Harmony Gold, Ninja Division, and the manufacturer in China. So my question is this:

Is it not possible that some small or major part of the delays are not Palladium's fault, but those of one or more of their partners?

Now again, I make no pretense to any special or insider knowledge on this topic, as I am not a confidant of anyone at any of these companies nor am I directly or indirectly involved with this product (other than as a customer), so please don't assume that I am trying to deflect blame away from PB. (Heaven knows that Palladium has a well-earned reputation for late releases.) What I am saying is that, in my experience - which includes having brought several new products to market for a toy company a decade ago - often times there are delays in the process of getting a new product from its initial conceptualization to finished product in the hands of the customer, and seldom are those delays all caused by only one party.

I hear the question being asked, "So why, if other's might be to blame, has Palladium not said so?"

Again, this is pure speculation on my part, but based on my past business experience, a company never wins with it's customers when it tries to play the 'blame game'. This is not to say that a company shouldn't be truthful - anyone remember the Rifts CCG or the failed Nokia game? In both cases, once the product had died - through no fault of Palladium's (though some might debate that) - Kevin issued notice through the Rifter and online to let us all know what had happened, after the product had failed. These notices were short and to the point without being overly emotional regarding the sheer frustration he and everyone at PB must have felt after expending tremendous effort and energy only to see things unravel because of the mistakes of others. However, during the time when all this was happening, not a peep of the troubles they were going through escaped Palladium's collective lips. Why? Because the fastest way I know of to guarantee a business venture fails is to start publicly fighting with your partners.

Now, I'm not saying that RRT is failing or will fail (in fact, I hope to see this become a huge success and think it has the potential to do so - the market demand is certainly out there). I'm simply pointing out that Palladium might be shouldering the blame for the delays, that they themselves are not the cause of, simply to give this product the best possible chance of a successful launch.

So that is my thought - feel free now to pick it apart in the best and most noble tradition of the internet!

[Morgan Vening]

Now, I'm not saying that RRT is failing or will fail (in fact, I hope to see this become a huge success and think it has the potential to do so - the market demand is certainly out there). I'm simply pointing out that Palladium might be shouldering the blame for the delays, that they themselves are not the cause of, simply to give this product the best possible chance of a successful launch.

It's quite possible, and even likely, that there are some delays that are not the direct cause of Palladium. But there are three points to take into consideration when trying to absolve them of the responsibility.

1) As project lead, they're responsible for the scheduling. It's a harsh truth, but it's a truth all the same. They should have asked for estimations for the various stages that were outside their control, from the Chinese manufacturer, to Ninja Division, to Harmony Gold, before they set any kind of timeline (the original December 2013). Then they should have appropriately padded that timeline, to take into account a certain amount of unforeseen delay in addition.

2) As project lead, they're responsible for managing expectations. And the one that is apparently most pervasive (is a big issue on the RPG side, apparently). I know it's old news, but there's no way they should have revised the original December date to "November, maybe October", unless they were literally going to press the big red button. Similarly, holding out until two months before the scheduled release date, to delay the date (Nov 2 for December, Jan 4 for February) looks bad, when it looks like just the shipping may take up most of that, let alone production on the front end, or distribution on the back end. And they HAD to know there was still some significant time left before production started. The decision to split into two Waves came Jan 30, well after the second proper delay. So instead of the box components and 12 miniatures, they had the box components and 40+ miniatures. Heck, in the Jan 4 post, they'd received their first Pre Production Prototype. Just 39+ more to go, let alone the test sprues. I know they want to engender excitement, but fairy tales don't do that.

3) As project lead, they're responsible for communication. Both public and private. And I'm not one who expects immediate instantaneous communication. But when questions go unanswered for weeks or months (took 4+ weeks to get a decision on the Super VEF, it's over 4 weeks on the big 10 Questions and not all have been answered, and it's been over 4 weeks to get an answer to Larry A's "Return/Replacement Policy" thread that was locked without answer), that's on them. Similarly, like the Larry A thread, the expectation that questions can only be asked/answered privately, rather than released publicly, is flawed. That the answer to the Tomahawk/Defender lack of diversity (the initial concept was that you got 4 Destroids, built as either, but was unilaterally changed to two of each, and that concept has remained as such all the way through), still hasn't apparently been publicly acknowledged (the components have, the retail box states 2+2, but the change hasn't), and it's only known because people are quoting from private messages, is so big a communication fail, it's hard to wrap my head around.

So, while some aspects might be other people's fault, it's PB's responsibility for managing both them, the schedule, and us. On all three, they're failing.

[Jorel]

Palladium is at fault as they are at the helm of this ship. They are the ones giving false deadlines like October 2013. People can be more excepting of delays when they aren't being mislead about poor planning and project management.

[Jorel]

And for the record I think all those stated are likely part of the problem with the delays, but it is Palladium that keeps releasing faulty info to the public. If they aren't gonna take responsibility for the harm they are doing to the RRT customer base releasing all that faulty info and by ignoring them on the Kickstarter comments pages, then does it really matter if the other companies give them info or not? Palladium could do a lot of things better here starting with communication. The fact that they refuse to engage people personally on the KS pages, other than for Wayne to come on there to do Damage Control when Zero called the office and told them he was gonna go on the KS comments and take a big dump all over Palladium and then Wayne was on within minutes to communicate for minutes. It really is a shame they are letting that place become a den of uncontested paranoid gossip.

[Seto Kaiba]

I hear the question being asked, "So why, if other's might be to blame, has Palladium not said so?"

Just to throw a few possible (but likely) explanations out there which may or may not have any connection with the actual circumstances...

"Because it doesn't pay to point fingers at the company whose licensed material is helping keep your doors open..." would be a great place to start. They really can't afford to point fingers at Harmony Gold, as that license is one of the things keeping the wolves from Palladium's door.

"Because it also doesn't pay to point fingers at your business partners," which is especially true when you consider that Palladium Books is a VERY small company that doesn't have anything like the clout in the industry to potentially endanger relations by blaming the other party with impunity. Palladium doesn't have other companies begging and pleading for joint business ventures... so throwing a partner to the wolves is only going to shrink the number of fish in a very small pond. (It doesn't help that the IP they're using here has so many legal issues surrounding it that it's pretty much licensee-repellent... very few companies have been willing to touch Robotech with a ten foot pole, and even the ones willing to touch it are usually averse to touching any part other than the franchise's one guaranteed sell... Macross.)

"Because it might actually be their fault, and pointing fingers would not only sour relations with a partner but also make them look stupid when the accused partner denies it and lays the truth out."

[Forar]

I have provided vocal critique here, on the KS comments, and in general I agree with both Morgan and Jorel.

It's their name involved, their site is where most of the info comes (they have gotten better about updates, but there's a long way to go before I'd call them a good source of information), presumably they will reap a solid portion of the profits, and assuming sales are strong, they will likely be the ones touting that as far and wide as they can. They will likely carry a significant portion of the profits and accolades (minus their costs and whatever is due to HG and/or ND for their share of the workload).

They have been working with HG for literally a quarter of a century, if I'm not mistaken. They are reportedly difficult to work with at times, and I'm sure there are few who are as aware of that as PB, so while HG may factor into the delays, PB should have been prepared for that. While ND is newer on the scene, and I respect that they may not be faultless in this debacle, as has been pointed out, they are the project head, and thus the buck stops there. It's their responsibility to manage whatever work they have subcontracted out, pad the time lines, know how and when to grease the wheels if things are going slowly, and to properly keep their backers informed.

Which comes back to managing expectations, which has been a complete failure. It is one thing to have two dozen books lined up for tentative release and only get our 4 or 5 in a year, as few of those will have taken pre-order money (or so is my understanding). Taking 1.6 million or so (including what was apparently received during the pledge manager) from backers creates significantly more responsibility to at least be up front with the backers.

Would I not be annoyed or frustrated seeing an 8 month project move up to 20+? Eh, it'd still be there, but knowing why the delays are happening, seeing tangible progress on some aspects, while hearing what the reasonable causes are for holding things back would go a long way. I keep pointing to it, but Xia is another project that has seen significant delays, as has C'Thulhu Wars. However, both have also kept their backer base better informed, shown off more game play, even invited feedback from their community when determining how to proceed.

For us, hindsight is 20/20, but in managing a project of this size, ballooning the delivery timeframe up to 2.5x (again, or more) the original estimate means that somewhere along the line, someone (probably several) done screwed up, and badly. And the backers were continually fed lines about how far along things were, how much progress had been made, only to see contradictory backslides in the release target (often faster than we were moving along in the months, meaning it was being assessed that we were actively losing ground).

Even with the gradually improving communications (a solid update 2 weeks ago, a somewhat 'meh' one recently, but at least they recognize the issues presented), there remain outlying considerations like Wave 2, which has subtly slide backwards (at least in the comments) from "October" to "the end of the year". Let's be realistic; if it takes over half a year to deliver on the first 12 figures, how the hell are they going to deliver another 2 dozen or so in 2-4 months? Prototyping them all out, getting approval all around, making molds, running test sprues and triple checking assembly is not going to happen in 8 weeks.

Coming clean to the backers and rebuilding trust requires more than a few lofty goals. Tangible progress like the support pod sprue pictures are good. Having another 11 figures (6 or 7 sprues?) that remain completely outstanding (from what we've been shown at least), isn't.

EDIT: Comment edited. -NMI

[NMI]

This topic has been pruned. The mud-slinging, argumentative comments have been removed.

Take your person grudges elsewhere. They are not wanted here.

[Jorel]

Gotta fully agree with that statement.

[Scott Gibbons]

This is purely Palladium's fault.

The problem with absolute statements like this is that rarely is the world so black and white.

Project lead has to keep track of the progress of each phase of the project and make sure that any other subcontractors are meeting the marks and keep the clients informed.

I agree with your point about keeping clients informed.

I also agree with your statement about keeping track of each phase of the project.

I again agree with you on the statement about making sure that subcontractors meet their marks - as far as it goes. One question that you have neglected to address is 'what is the project lead supposed to do when the subcontractors don't meet their marks?'

Now if this were a simple problem like PB's supplier of cardboard boxes not having them when Palladium needs them to ship product out, then the solution is as simple - go down the road to the next box supplier (which suppliers are a relative dime-a-dozen) and buy from them, then ship out product. But when you are dealing with a highly complex problem, like highly detailed miniature figure pieces being worked on by multiple employees of multiple companies, where there are no 'dime-a-dozen, suppliers down the road', what would you - if you were the project lead - do about it? And don't forget that we are also discussing signed contracts, significant amounts of money, and the hopes and expectations of thousands/tens of thousands of fans.

[Jorel]

I'd say you should be are still responsible for hiring subcontractors that you can trust as it is your name on the line for 98% of the credit/blame.

[Morgan Vening]

I again agree with you on the statement about making sure that subcontractors meet their marks - as far as it goes. One question that you have neglected to address is 'what is the project lead supposed to do when the subcontractors don't meet their marks?'

That might be a valid question, if we didn't have stuff like
"To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced." on the front page of the KS. And then the following
"Sculpts are being finalized. ALL but 5-6 have been finished and approved by Harmony Gold, the licensor. The rules are written, edited, and approved by the licensor, and ready to go into final layout. Packaging designs are next." on July 11.

It's hard at this point to claim it's huge delays by the subcontractors, when you've already claimed that it's almost all done. Except they were still playing with the rulebook January 25th. Except the Rulebook wasn't approved after November 23. And was approved on Dec 13. Now, I'll give some leniency from subcons being late, IF we hadn't been assured stuff had been completed. Approved. Finalized. And signed off on by the licensor 4 months before they actually apparently had.

Some have claimed "Well, they unlocked way more than they thought they would.". And that'd have merit too, except there's very little in Wave 1 that wasn't supposed to be. Spartan/Phalanx were the first unlock, and ZArtillery were unlocked in the first week. The only late addition was the Recovery Pod. I mean, it's a year later, over 9 months past the reserved factory time (45 days past the end of the KS, if I remember correctly), and we're STILL waiting to see Valkyries as PPP, let alone as sprues.

And if they had of said "All the extra work from the stuff we unlocked is gonna blow our timeline", most people would have understood. But they didn't. They doubled down on it. They suggested it could have been done EARLY. And they stuck to it until well past the failure point. Then knowing exactly what work was still outstanding, they doubled down on February. And blew that. Then they stripped out over 2/3 of the models and announced June. And barring divine intervention from on most high, there's little chance that'll happen, given they haven't seen the Valkyries, and have actual test sprues for one [1] model so far.

TLDR, it's hard to blame the contractors from missing their marks, when you've already announced they hit them.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is purely Palladium's fault. [...]

Eh... it's easy to just say that, but there's no way to prove whether or not it's actually the case.

Project lead has to keep track of the progress of each phase of the project and make sure that any other subcontractors are meeting the marks and keep the clients informed.

Yes, but in this case... who's really leading this tangled web of interdependent licensing agreements?

Is it Harmony Gold, the "owner" licensee of the Robotech IP who sub-licensed some of those rights to Palladium Books and exercises supreme executive authority over the project and has all the actual power to approve or reject material despite the approvals process being so Byzantine that even the company's own employees cannot reliably navigate it?

Is it Palladium Books, the sub-licensee whose rights are obtained from Harmony Gold and who may or may not actually be calling the shots WRT development of the miniatures, and whose reputation for letting its deadlines slip has become the stuff of legend?

Is it Ninja Division, Palladium's partner in the development of the games, who are struggling to make minis on a scale most would consider far too small to make a viable model that complex and whose relationship to the licensing agreement is tangential and vague at best? Is Ninja Division really a "subcontractor" who works for Palladium, or is this the partnership the Kickstarter suggested it would be?

Who's really in charge? Palladium told us Ninja Division would be. Palladium's acting like Palladum's own staff is. Harmony Gold has all the actual authority, and has lately developed a habit of keeping the closest of eyes on licensed material after disowning most of it. The problem there is that the only point of contact is Palladium... and they're not saying.


In short, I don't think there's any one party we can point to, as if in an old Sherlock Holmes story, and say "Aha! YOU are the cuprit!"

[Jorel]

Which is why the responsibility should be wit the company leading this and making the final decisions. Which is Palladium. If they don't wanna try something, they don't have to. If they don't wanna supply HG with stuff to approve they don't have to. HG may have final say, but it is Palladium who initiated this endeavor and who is taking control to make decisions. They are in charge and they are responsible. Pretty simple actually.

[Forar]

Yeah Morgan, when laid out like that, it's really hard to give PB the benefit of the doubt. It sounds an awful lot like there were very firm plans to get things fired off and rolling ASAP after the project, and for whatever reason that just fell through. Maybe ND did frak something up, or gave poor, incomplete or misleading info.

Maybe the massive expansion did cause some issues, and instead of focusing on the things they knew would be in *retail* wave one (which we've known about since around mid last year, thanks to Alliance Distributing), leading to them not having anything remotely set in stone, but instead a ton of different figures in the 10-80% range that still needed weeks of finalizing work to hit the top 98% of mouth wateringness.

Long story short, through the glory of the internet we can go back and look at just what we've been told to date, and with the magic of hindsight see what proved to be untrue or at least misleading. Timelines past, growing delays, uncertainty regarding project completion. It's not impossible that they'll manage to hit that Gencon release AND have at least some backer boxes in the mail at that point as well, but what they say and what they do (or have done by others) needs to start lining up. They've said that they hope to start production in mid May, maybe even early May. Great. That means in the next 3 weeks (1-3 updates), one of them really needs to say 'production has begun!' and there will be much rejoicing.

But with the realities of punching out hundreds of thousands of plastic sprues, firing them across an ocean (with potential for delays on both sides) and then getting them into people's hands for packaging and sending them off into the mail system, there's not much margin for error. If they don't start by June, they might as well just shift the target back to September and face the music.

The only heartening thing about the actual production/delivery so far are seeing actual sprues, and even that is a bit tinged in being the same figure we've seen a few times now, representing 1 out of 12 figures to deliver on. Even if the RDF side is 3 sprues (1 for a VT in all 3 modes, 1 for each of the two Destroid sets) and Zentraedi are 3-4 (Battle Pods, Support Pods, and depending on whether or not the Command Pod set fits on 1 sprue or 2, I'm assuming 2), that's 1 / 7 sprues that have been displayed at the test stage so far. 5-6 more to go in 2-3 weeks? I sure hope they're working at a fever pitch over there.

But having molds made? Punching some test plastic? Even if they don't make the target, I'm at least convinced that they are actively trying. Actions speak louder than words, and we're finally starting to see some actions forward.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which is why the responsibility should be wit the company leading this and making the final decisions. Which is Palladium. [...]

Er... not to put too fine a point on it, but I've already indicated above why this isn't necessary right. The limited information made available to the backers has made it impossible to know for sure which company's actually responsible for the mess.

Even discounting that, there's still a fairly significant flaw in your reasoning here... while it's unclear which company has truly been leading development of this game, what IS known is that the company which has the last word on all development decisions and ultimate veto power over anything produced by Palladium's writers or Ninja Division's modelers is Harmony Gold USA.

If they don't wanna try something, they don't have to. If they don't wanna supply HG with stuff to approve they don't have to.

Actually, both Palladium and Harmony Gold have indicated in the past that they're actually required to submit their work for approvals before it can be released. Supposedly it's actually part of the terms of their renewed Robotech license. If they don't want to supply Harmony Gold with material for review and approval, they can't release anything.

(Harmony Gold's been big on exercising as much control as it can over its licensees ever since the reboot and their decision to disown all of the licensee-created material prior to 2001.)

HG may have final say, but it is Palladium who initiated this endeavor and who is taking control to make decisions. They are in charge and they are responsible. Pretty simple actually.

You're assuming that's the case... without any actual evidence, mind. I realize that it might feel a little therapeutic to rail against Palladium as though Kevin were some kind of black-and-white era movie villain twirling his handlebar mustache after tying RRT to the tracks ahead of an oncoming train, but the reality is the situation is much more complex and there is almost certainly more than one party at fault.

[Asterios]

The whole project can be laid on Palladiums doorstep.

1: this is their game, they hired ND to sculpt models, but still had final say so on those sculpts, ND's part is already done, now Palladium is working with a company in China (Which if people did not realize that's where PB has been getting all their product from in this venture, including it seems the 3D sculpts).

2: Palladium is the only one to give answers and they have been lying to us since day one (This is fact and can be proven, so NMI don't you dare give me a warning or anything since I am posting fact)

3: Palladium is in deeper trouble financially then have let on.

4: I wish any other company other then Palladium was doing this project since then we would have gotten something by now.

[Jorel]

The evidence is that they stated their intent to do this project. HG didn't come to PB to initiate this and neither did ND come to them with the idea. The idea as far as I know originated with Jon Paulson of Paulson Games and Tom Roache and they presented the idea to Palladium. I think it was Tom that presented it and Paulson Games was hoping to to the minis. Then Jon was replaced in that position with ND. I think that is what we actually know. I'd have to ask Tom and Jon to clarify at what point which parties (PB, HG, ND) all joined in the endeavor, but it was presented to PB first I believe. They are clearly spearheading this operation. Go and look back at the press releases or updates and you will see PB are the ones controlling this and making the choices. They have to present something to HG, but they are the ones in control of whatever they decide to present.They know HGs rules they have been working with them for 25+ years I believe. They shouldn't be guessing at what will pass the license holder and what won't. They have made very detailed minis as they said they would and HG has given the stamp of approval on most of these renders so they don't need to see the final pieces to give a 2nd approval. It is up to PB to get those right to what is already approved by the license holder. I read about one being sent to ND and one to PB. No mention of HG anywhere in that Update.

[Jorel]

The whole project can be laid on Palladiums doorstep.
...
3: Palladium is in deeper trouble financially then have let on.

Stop lying.

[Asterios]

The whole project can be laid on Palladiums doorstep.
...
3: Palladium is in deeper trouble financially then have let on.

Stop lying.

i'm sorry to say not a lie

[Jorel]

They would have to have another issue besides the KS doing poorly to indicate they had another reason to falter. You are judging them based on the KS which hasn't had resolution yet so you are wrong. Stop Lying. They produced NG-1 and I would guess that is selling well and not costing them money. Now that he is done with NG-2 we can say the same for that. No reason to assume they aren't selling enough books to keep the lights on. I know people that play and buy books so there is that. They aren't completely out of the game like you keep implying.

[Jorel]

The whole project can be laid on Palladiums doorstep.
...
3: Palladium is in deeper trouble financially then have let on.

Stop lying.

i'm sorry to say not a lie

Show your evidence or stop lying.

[Asterios]

They would have to have another issue besides the KS doing poorly to indicate they had another reason to falter. You are judging them based on the KS which hasn't had resolution yet so you are wrong. Stop Lying. They produced NG-1 and I would guess that is selling well and not costing them money. Now that he is done with NG-2 we can say the same for that. No reason to assume they aren't selling enough books to keep the lights on. I know people that play and buy books so there is that. They aren't completely out of the game like you keep implying.

really has NG2 hit the shelves? is Palladium book products on every game store because people are clamoring for their product? you mean I don';t have to drive 90 miles plus to find a single store that has Palladium product on their shelves ?

[Seto Kaiba]

The whole project can be laid on Palladiums doorstep.

Clearly not, as the facts don't support that contention.

1: this is their game, they hired ND to sculpt models, but still had final say so on those sculpts, ND's part is already done, [...]

We know it wasn't their game... it was originally proposed by Paulson Games.

We also know they don't have the last word on anything... because the terms of their license agreement with Harmony Gold is known to have given Harmony Gold the last word on what can and cannot go into a Palladium-made Robotech work.

2: Palladium is the only one to give answers and they have been lying to us since day one [...]

Palladium has been the main point of contact regarding the game, but they haven't been the only one... and whether the inaccuracies in their reportage are lies or simply misaimed optimism, I couldn't possibly comment (because either is equally possible).

3: Palladium is in deeper trouble financially then have let on.

I'm still waiting for supporting evidence to back up this rather unpleasant claim.

4: I wish any other company other then Palladium was doing this project since then we would have gotten something by now.

Strictly speaking, there's no guarantee that another company wouldn't have set a longer time frame for development and delivery, so while I cannot say there's anything wrong with wishing that any company besides Palladium were working this one, there's no factual basis for saying that the backers would have gotten something by now if another company were responsible for this.

[Jorel]

They would have to have another issue besides the KS doing poorly to indicate they had another reason to falter. You are judging them based on the KS which hasn't had resolution yet so you are wrong. Stop Lying. They produced NG-1 and I would guess that is selling well and not costing them money. Now that he is done with NG-2 we can say the same for that. No reason to assume they aren't selling enough books to keep the lights on. I know people that play and buy books so there is that. They aren't completely out of the game like you keep implying.

really has NG2 hit the shelves? is Palladium book products on every game store because people are clamoring for their product? you mean I don';t have to drive 90 miles plus to find a single store that has Palladium product on their shelves ?

They still sell books through the store and I would gather they have preorders there. When that book ships they will charge all those pre-orders getting that income to start. It will take time like everything but they also sell other books. They aren't on deaths bed like you'd have everyone believe.

[Asterios]

They would have to have another issue besides the KS doing poorly to indicate they had another reason to falter. You are judging them based on the KS which hasn't had resolution yet so you are wrong. Stop Lying. They produced NG-1 and I would guess that is selling well and not costing them money. Now that he is done with NG-2 we can say the same for that. No reason to assume they aren't selling enough books to keep the lights on. I know people that play and buy books so there is that. They aren't completely out of the game like you keep implying.

really has NG2 hit the shelves? is Palladium book products on every game store because people are clamoring for their product? you mean I don';t have to drive 90 miles plus to find a single store that has Palladium product on their shelves ?

They still sell books through the store and I would gather they have preorders there. When that book ships they will charge all those pre-orders getting that income to start. It will take time like everything but they also sell other books. They aren't on deaths bed like you'd have everyone believe.

yes but when dozens upon dozens of game stores around me will not stock their product because it does not sell, tells me a whole lot.

About a dozen stores just in my little Podunk town sells game books and none of them will sell Palladium product because it does not sell and they lose money on it.

[Jorel]

I'm not saying they are wildly successful. I am saying they are surviving, even if it is meagerly.

[Asterios]

I'm not saying they are wildly successful. I am saying they are surviving, even if it is meagerly.

so the fact they have overreached themselves does not figure in? the fact they used Kickstarter funds for a product none of us backers will get doesn't count? the fact the longer this project goes the more it costs doesn't count?

[Seto Kaiba]

yes but when dozens upon dozens of game stores around me will not stock their product because it does not sell, tells me a whole lot.

Yes, it tells you a lot about the type of games that are preferred in your immediate area... it tells you very little about the broader picture. What you've got there is a fallacy of composition, my friend.

My local game stores DO stock some Palladium game lines, though it's only a limited selection because pen and paper RPGs aren't in high demand here. This is very much TCG and tabletop gaming country, so that's where they focus their efforts.

[Jorel]

I'm not saying they are wildly successful. I am saying they are surviving, even if it is meagerly.

...the fact they used Kickstarter funds for a product none of us backers will get...

what does that even mean? You honestly think they won't deliver anything? We'll get what we paid for. We may not like what we paid for, because we were blindly investing in a product that didn't exist yet. We still put our money out there and we will get a product in return for our investment/payment.

[Asterios]

yes but when dozens upon dozens of game stores around me will not stock their product because it does not sell, tells me a whole lot.

Yes, it tells you a lot about the type of games that are preferred in your immediate area... it tells you very little about the broader picture. What you've got there is a fallacy of composition, my friend.

My local game stores DO stock some Palladium game lines, though it's only a limited selection because pen and paper RPGs aren't in high demand here. This is very much TCG and tabletop gaming country, so that's where they focus their efforts.

Actualy in my area the game stores are divided into 3 groups, those that specialize in collectible card gaming, those that specialize in miniature game playing and those that specialize in RPG gaming (its all about the size of the store it seems) one store which has been around before Palladium (also a comic store) stocks Gurps, D&D, FASA and so on, hell the Battletech section is huge, but when it comes to Palladium, not a single copy exists, the owner who I've known for over 30 years told me, the last Palladium product he sold was the robotech stuff he sold me back in the 80/90's pretty much, he said he might stock a copy of the rifters mag (but rarely) other then that nobody is buying the Palladium product so he stopped stocking it and only does special orders for it, which he gets none.

As to the miniature game stores around me, they have stated they will not be stocking the tactics game because of bad press they have received from other parties (no not me) regarding Palladium.

I'm not saying they are wildly successful. I am saying they are surviving, even if it is meagerly.

...the fact they used Kickstarter funds for a product none of us backers will get...

what does that even mean? You honestly think they won't deliver anything? We'll get what we paid for. We may not like what we paid for, because we were blindly investing in a product that didn't exist yet. We still put our money out there and we will get a product in return for our investment/payment.

No i'm saying we won't get what was promised and not get it anytime soon.

and I was talking about the KS funds used for their "Convention" exclusives, that we won't get.

[Jorel]

I think they will deliver what they said they would. Whether or not that is what you wanted I cannot say. I'd guess by your sky is falling drama that your pretty convinced this is the end of the world.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actualy in my area the game stores are divided into 3 groups, those that specialize in collectible card gaming, those that specialize in miniature game playing and those that specialize in RPG gaming (its all about the size of the store it seems) [...]

While I appreciate the effort to add context to your argument, it doesn't change the fallacious basis your argument is built upon. What is true for your specific area isn't necessarily true for the rest of the world.

Admittedly, my area game stores refuse to stock Robotech anything... and will likely also decline to stock the RPG Tactics game... citing the unlikeliness of it actually selling. I'm usually the only one in the group of regulars they have who has even a vague interest in it, so they special order stuff for me when I've asked, but otherwise don't bother. They do a pretty brisk trade in RIFTS books every now and then tho.

[Asterios]

I think they will deliver what they said they would. Whether or not that is what you wanted I cannot say. I'd guess by your sky is falling drama that your pretty convinced this is the end of the world.

so your saying they are going to deliver Quality product then ? willing to lay odds on that ?

Actualy in my area the game stores are divided into 3 groups, those that specialize in collectible card gaming, those that specialize in miniature game playing and those that specialize in RPG gaming (its all about the size of the store it seems) [...]

While I appreciate the effort to add context to your argument, it doesn't change the fallacious basis your argument is built upon. What is true for your specific area isn't necessarily true for the rest of the world.

Admittedly, my area game stores refuse to stock Robotech anything... and will likely also decline to stock the RPG Tactics game... citing the unlikeliness of it actually selling. I'm usually the only one in the group of regulars they have who has even a vague interest in it, so they special order stuff for me when I've asked, but otherwise don't bother. They do a pretty brisk trade in RIFTS books every now and then tho.

I'm not going by my area but also basing it on the 3 biggest towns near me too, which are bigger then my little Podunk town.

[Jorel]

You may have different expectations with what they said. I don't know. I'm also not judging them constantly trying to cry foul of every problem I can conceive of.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not going by my area but also basing it on the 3 biggest towns near me too, which are bigger then my little Podunk town.

That doesn't change the problem with your argument... that's just your immediate area, not the country as a whole.

[Asterios]

You may have different expectations with what they said. I don't know. I'm also not judging them constantly trying to cry foul of every problem I can conceive of.

Didn't start crying foul till I saw the Spartan and the veritech.

I'm not going by my area but also basing it on the 3 biggest towns near me too, which are bigger then my little Podunk town.

That doesn't change the problem with your argument... that's just your immediate area, not the country as a whole.

ok then how about the part where many other backers have stated their local areas do not carry PB products too, also considering my area if PB is not present that is not a good thing for them.

[Seto Kaiba]

ok then how about the part where many other backers have stated their local areas do not carry PB products too, also considering my area if PB is not present that is not a good thing for them.

The definition of "local area" varies from person to person, and the distribution of gaming stores varies from area to area. I know of areas where Palladium does a pretty brisk trade, and I know of areas where they're not selling a single, solitary book. I can say the same for other types of games as well. That's no indicator that the company's goods aren't selling in general.

[Asterios]

ok then how about the part where many other backers have stated their local areas do not carry PB products too, also considering my area if PB is not present that is not a good thing for them.

The definition of "local area" varies from person to person, and the distribution of gaming stores varies from area to area. I know of areas where Palladium does a pretty brisk trade, and I know of areas where they're not selling a single, solitary book. I can say the same for other types of games as well. That's no indicator that the company's goods aren't selling in general.

well considering the 100 mile range around me contains a few million people it does say a good amount.

[Seto Kaiba]

well considering the 100 mile range around me contains a few million people it does say a good amount.

Not really... that's a pretty small representative population vs. the entire area in which Palladium is able to distribute its merchandise. Your conclusion only really applies to your specific area, so it doesn't prove, by any standard of measure, that Palladium products don't sell.

[Asterios]

well considering the 100 mile range around me contains a few million people it does say a good amount.

Not really... that's a pretty small representative population vs. the entire area in which Palladium is able to distribute its merchandise. Your conclusion only really applies to your specific area, so it doesn't prove, by any standard of measure, that Palladium products don't sell.

Then how about this, some companies which started around the same time have grown, while others who started after the 80's have grown, and yet Palladium has a staff of 6, doesn't sound to enterprising to me.

[Jorel]

Palladium is not stocked in most stores across NA. It has been proven by people making lists of stores that do indeed stock Palladium and those lists are short and the stores few and far in between.

[Jorel]

When asked the majority of people know where they can special order a Palladium book, but those same stores do not stock Palladium. I have 3 such stores near me in a city with a metro area of 500,000

[Seto Kaiba]

Then how about this, some companies which started around the same time have grown, while others who started after the 80's have grown, and yet Palladium has a staff of 6, doesn't sound to enterprising to me.

Well, a fair few of them grew as a result of being bought out by larger companies... and a fair few of that bunch grew further by being bought by still larger companies. Some of them grew by landing some rather lucrative licenses, or by creating original IP that became iconic in its genre.

So... I suppose, if you really wanted to ascribe a motive to why Palladium is still a small business while an assortment of its peers are now owned by large corporations, I guess it comes down to not really doing a whole heck of a lot to stand out. Their biggest licensed property is Robotech, a series which almost nobody remembers and which is dogged by more bad press and legal issues than most cults.

When asked the majority of people know where they can special order a Palladium book, but those same stores do not stock Palladium. I have 3 such stores near me in a city with a metro area of 500,000

That's only a small subset of the customer base though... just the people who are on this website.

The only way to get a good, clear, indisputable picture of Palladium's current state of affairs would be to obtain its distributor's merchant list.

[Asterios]

Then how about this, some companies which started around the same time have grown, while others who started after the 80's have grown, and yet Palladium has a staff of 6, doesn't sound to enterprising to me.

Well, a fair few of them grew as a result of being bought out by larger companies... and a fair few of that bunch grew further by being bought by still larger companies. Some of them grew by landing some rather lucrative licenses, or by creating original IP that became iconic in its genre.

So... I suppose, if you really wanted to ascribe a motive to why Palladium is still a small business while an assortment of its peers are now owned by large corporations, I guess it comes down to not really doing a whole heck of a lot to stand out. Their biggest licensed property is Robotech, a series which almost nobody remembers and which is dogged by more bad press and legal issues than most cults.

When asked the majority of people know where they can special order a Palladium book, but those same stores do not stock Palladium. I have 3 such stores near me in a city with a metro area of 500,000

That's only a small subset of the customer base though... just the people who are on this website.

The only way to get a good, clear, indisputable picture of Palladium's current state of affairs would be to obtain its distributor's merchant list.

ok lets look at Steve Jackson games, started around the same time and yet still doing much better with a bigger fan base then PB in fact their GURPS product is in every store around here that sells RPG books, and they were not bought out by a larger corporation.

As to distributor list, most companies I know of have such a list available to the public, does Palladium?

in fact SJG even has a store finder, not too mention they joined the modern age unlike Palladium who thinks it is still the 80's

The Force is not strong in you, your arguments are lacking validity and substance.

[Seto Kaiba]

ok lets look at Steve Jackson games, started around the same time and yet still doing much better with a bigger fan base then PB in fact their GURPS product is in every store around here that sells RPG books, and they were not bought out by a larger corporation.

Again with the fallacious assertion that your local area is representative of the entire world...

Steve Jackson Games is one example... though with a staff of 28, it's on the large end of still being the same kind of small business as Palladium. They're also in TCGs, which has been a growth industry, while the sort of pen-and-paper RPGs that make up the bulk of Palladium's inventory have been on the decline for a while now.

As to distributor list, most companies I know of have such a list available to the public, does Palladium?

I have no idea. Some companies publish it, some don't. I've never felt compelled to go looking for any list Palladium might have.

The Force is not strong in you, your arguments are lacking validity and substance.

Please confine your responses to actually addressing the issue at hand. Some actual corroborating evidence on your part for your alarmist claims would be a nice place to start.

[Asterios]

ok lets look at Steve Jackson games, started around the same time and yet still doing much better with a bigger fan base then PB in fact their GURPS product is in every store around here that sells RPG books, and they were not bought out by a larger corporation.

Again with the fallacious assertion that your local area is representative of the entire world...

Steve Jackson Games is one example... though with a staff of 28, it's on the large end of still being the same kind of small business as Palladium. They're also in TCGs, which has been a growth industry, while the sort of pen-and-paper RPGs that make up the bulk of Palladium's inventory have been on the decline for a while now.

As to distributor list, most companies I know of have such a list available to the public, does Palladium?

I have no idea. Some companies publish it, some don't. I've never felt compelled to go looking for any list Palladium might have.

The Force is not strong in you, your arguments are lacking validity and substance.

Please confine your responses to actually addressing the issue at hand. Some actual corroborating evidence on your part for your alarmist claims would be a nice place to start.

And yet a company that started off small like Palladium, still does a lot in the field of Paper RPGs, also while they may put out card games I would not call that their main line, in fact wouldn't really call them CCG's and not really played around here(lets face it if it ain't Yu-Gi-Oh or Magic the Gathering it ain't selling).

But let us continue, SJG was actually into the computer age back in the 90's (we know the secret service knows this), and yet Palladium is still not up to where SJG was in the 90's, and I've looked so far can't find a list of store distributors for PB and yet every other game company has said list.

So please explain a company that started the same time as Palladium, had the same number of people then Palladium, didn't have any permits like Robotech or TMNT and yet is doing better then Palladium and is doing better all around?

My other statement is fact, you are digging for any excuse for Palladium and it is now becoming tiresome and droll.

[Jorel]

I do have a feeling PB would have more employees right now to handle the work load were it not for the CoT thing.

[Asterios]

I do have a feeling PB would have more employees right now to handle the work load were it not for the CoT thing.

I disagree what was lost there was not as much as people think, and yet guess most people are not aware that SJG's suffered the same thing back in the 90's when the Secret Service raided their company and "Stole" a bunch of SJG computers with product designs and such (for the Gurp's Cyberpunk), heck SJG's was on the verge of closing and layed off some people and yet now they are still going strong.

so blaming the CoT for Palladiums problems is a joke in and of itself.

But maybe true since they might still have the 1 guy who stole some items from them.

[Jorel]

I'm not blaming it. You go for the extremes right away and it is pretty foolish. He would be more trusting of handing out authority to others and allowing others to work on stuff that is important instead of doing it all himself.

[Jorel]

I'd guess the CoT made him much less trusting of most except those few he keeps real close.