Mechanoids vs The demon fleet

[Warshield73]

I think the Demons would have this one.
The main reason is the fact that the Mechanoids don't care about Demons, they aren't on their kill list. so if a war were to break out, it is because the Demons started it. The Demons have numbers and capabilities enough to make their initial first strike a devastating one - if they play things smart, the Mechanoids would be at a significant disadvantage before they even knew they were at war.
Even if the Demons screwed up and their initial assault didn't go as planned, unlike most (all?) of you, I think a battle of attrition would fall in favour of the Demons.
Demons can't be killed by Mechanoids - you have to kill them in their home dimension to make it stick and the Mechanoids have no means to do so. With a 0% casualty rate, the Demons cannot possibly be defeated by the Mechanoids.
Sure the Mechanoids re-build fast and maybe the Demons don't initially have the numbers to destroy Mechanoids as fast as they can re-build but over time, that would have to change. Demons can make Phase Demons even easier than Mechanoids can make new Mechanoids. If the Demons went all out on Phase Demon production, their inability to die plus high population growth would eventually get them to a point where they can kill Mechanoids faster than they can reproduce and once it hits that point, the Mechanoids are all but done.

Also, have to remember that when you "kill" a demon in another dimension it takes decades for them to be reborn & return. It is not instant. Clones in cyborg shells, that is pretty close to instant. Also, as we have seen from the recent minion war the demons are there own worst enemy. Still say they loose as much to their own back stabbing as to Mechanoid tech.

[Rallan]

I think the Demons would have this one.
The main reason is the fact that the Mechanoids don't care about Demons, they aren't on their kill list. so if a war were to break out, it is because the Demons started it. The Demons have numbers and capabilities enough to make their initial first strike a devastating one - if they play things smart, the Mechanoids would be at a significant disadvantage before they even knew they were at war.
Even if the Demons screwed up and their initial assault didn't go as planned, unlike most (all?) of you, I think a battle of attrition would fall in favour of the Demons.
Demons can't be killed by Mechanoids - you have to kill them in their home dimension to make it stick and the Mechanoids have no means to do so. With a 0% casualty rate, the Demons cannot possibly be defeated by the Mechanoids.
Sure the Mechanoids re-build fast and maybe the Demons don't initially have the numbers to destroy Mechanoids as fast as they can re-build but over time, that would have to change. Demons can make Phase Demons even easier than Mechanoids can make new Mechanoids. If the Demons went all out on Phase Demon production, their inability to die plus high population growth would eventually get them to a point where they can kill Mechanoids faster than they can reproduce and once it hits that point, the Mechanoids are all but done.

Also, have to remember that when you "kill" a demon in another dimension it takes decades for them to be reborn & return. It is not instant. Clones in cyborg shells, that is pretty close to instant. Also, as we have seen from the recent minion war the demons are there own worst enemy. Still say they loose as much to their own back stabbing as to Mechanoid tech.

Not to mention that ships and machinery tend to stay blown up for good no matter which dimension they get blown up in, and the soldiers and crew of the Demon Fleet aren't going to be much threat if they come back a few years after their first defeat and findout that the Mechanoids have slagged their infrastructure and reclaimed it for scrap.

[The Beast]

The deevils then step in after the mechanoid fleet is finishing off the demons and they open dimensional rifts to the demon realm and the mechanoids go in after finding out the demons are there as well and they destroy for good all demons.

Many people are forgetting the deevils here, they would find the mechanoids the perfect saps to help them obliterate the demons. They use trickery more and shapeshifting, not too mention when the demons have a good plan or something set up you are going to have deevils either alert the mechanoids to it or they will attack or sabotage the demons.

they will make sure the demons never get any sort of advantage and all they have to do is manipulate the mechanoids to do their bidding. Which is exactly the way that they like it and is their strength.

I think you're underestimating the level of insane hatred the mechs have for any humanoid life form.

[eliakon]

Just out of curiosity. There have been several mentions here about the Mechanoids conquering whole galaxies, and the like. Where is this mentioned in the books? I am aware that they had a solar system sized base, and a dozen + motherships, but I am trying to find where they got moved up to 'nigh infinite in number'

[The Beast]

Just out of curiosity. There have been several mentions here about the Mechanoids conquering whole galaxies, and the like. Where is this mentioned in the books? I am aware that they had a solar system sized base, and a dozen + motherships, but I am trying to find where they got moved up to 'nigh infinite in number'

They never got "moved up to it." They were like that since their first books. You'll have to look in the Mechanoid Trilogy book and maybe SB2 to see that info now.

[eliakon]

Just out of curiosity. There have been several mentions here about the Mechanoids conquering whole galaxies, and the like. Where is this mentioned in the books? I am aware that they had a solar system sized base, and a dozen + motherships, but I am trying to find where they got moved up to 'nigh infinite in number'

They never got "moved up to it." They were like that since their first books. You'll have to look in the Mechanoid Trilogy book and maybe SB2 to see that info now.

So.....
The Race was pretty much wiped out hundreds of years ago. There can be as many 'survivors' or 'new generation' as the plot calls for then. But it would seem pretty clear that the horde that 'swept galaxy after galaxy' is dead.

[Alrik Vas]

I'm missing what you're referencing.

[eliakon]

If the entire mechanoid race was wiped out in the combined events of the Mechanoid Civil war, and the 'sacrifice the race to power the doomsday device' then there are not countless trillions of mechanoids. The original premise that the mechanoids would win by dint of sheer numbers only holds up if...they have those numbers.

[Killer Cyborg]

The original horde of Mechanoids was killed down to a relatively small number.
After the surviving Mechanoids got a cure, and created new designs for their bodies, they spent decades "creating new legions of clones," and were (as of SB2), " ready to blanket the universe with their mission of destruction.

And we know from SA2 that the Megaversal Legion got chased off by the Mechanoids invading the planet that they were defending.
And we know from CB2 the Poseiden was unable to stop the Mechanoids from killing a planet of him worshippers.
And we know from SB2 that Mechanoid bots such as the Thinmen and runs "are manufactured in the billions." Not "were," but "are."

They may or may not have the numbers that they did before they disappeared, but they certainly seem to have enough.

[eliakon]

The original horde of Mechanoids was killed down to a relatively small number.
After the surviving Mechanoids got a cure, and created new designs for their bodies, they spent decades "creating new legions of clones," and were (as of SB2), " ready to blanket the universe with their mission of destruction.

And we know from SA2 that the Megaversal Legion got chased off by the Mechanoids invading the planet that they were defending.
And we know from CB2 the Poseiden was unable to stop the Mechanoids from killing a planet of him worshippers.
And we know from SB2 that Mechanoid bots such as the Thinmen and runs "are manufactured in the billions." Not "were," but "are."

They may or may not have the numbers that they did before they disappeared, but they certainly seem to have enough.

There are levels of 'enough' though

Are we talking one or two of their continent sized ships or a few million of those ships
Its important, if they only have a few ships and their soldiers then it would be possible to fight them, if they have millions or billions of those ships and their soldiers then yah, if they get D-travel reality is screwed.

As a side note ALL those references could easily be one world ship.

[Killer Cyborg]

The original horde of Mechanoids was killed down to a relatively small number.
After the surviving Mechanoids got a cure, and created new designs for their bodies, they spent decades "creating new legions of clones," and were (as of SB2), " ready to blanket the universe with their mission of destruction.

And we know from SA2 that the Megaversal Legion got chased off by the Mechanoids invading the planet that they were defending.
And we know from CB2 the Poseiden was unable to stop the Mechanoids from killing a planet of him worshippers.
And we know from SB2 that Mechanoid bots such as the Thinmen and runs "are manufactured in the billions." Not "were," but "are."

They may or may not have the numbers that they did before they disappeared, but they certainly seem to have enough.

There are levels of 'enough' though

Are we talking one or two of their continent sized ships or a few million of those ships
Its important, if they only have a few ships and their soldiers then it would be possible to fight them, if they have millions or billions of those ships and their soldiers then yah, if they get D-travel reality is screwed.

As a side note ALL those references could easily be one world ship.

It would be very improbable that they only had one ship.
Remember, the Mechanoids retreated to a giant silver disc larger than the planet Jupiter, and that disc disappeared along with as many Mechanoids as it had, including all the Mechanoids from the 12 motherships that had been guarding it.
That's a LOT of mechanoids, and (as pointed out) they've been building up their numbers for decades since them.

[Dragon Mage]

FYI. Since no one seems to want to look it up. Even if this thread is a little old...I thought I would post this from SB2:

Note: The estimated total population of Mechanoids in the universe
is a paltry 800 million. This number is about 10% compared
to past numbers, but then they have just made their reappearance
in the universe. They continue to build their numbers.

Mechanoid Robots
Note: There are thirty times as many robots as Mechanoids,
approximately 24 billion.

Hope that help alittle

R.

[say652]

Mechanoids are a universal but not THEE universal power. And since demons have been around since before time, I am gonna go with experience on this one. And while nearly game unbalancing by themselves psionics can be beaten. Since his first defeat by the Mechanoids Cutter has raised an army of Algor Delphi Juicers. He also has developed connections with an unknown shadow pantheon and an Asgardian Demigod of slow mind and stout body. So far nobody supports his declaration of war. Most kinda laugh and wander off saying things like suice mission and fool.

[Killer Cyborg]

FYI. Since no one seems to want to look it up. Even if this thread is a little old...I thought I would post this from SB2:

Note: The estimated total population of Mechanoids in the universe
is a paltry 800 million. This number is about 10% compared
to past numbers, but then they have just made their reappearance
in the universe. They continue to build their numbers.

Mechanoid Robots
Note: There are thirty times as many robots as Mechanoids,
approximately 24 billion.

Hope that help alittle

R.

Nice.
What page?

[Dragon Mage]

FYI. Since no one seems to want to look it up. Even if this thread is a little old...I thought I would post this from SB2:

Note: The estimated total population of Mechanoids in the universe
is a paltry 800 million. This number is about 10% compared
to past numbers, but then they have just made their reappearance
in the universe. They continue to build their numbers.

Mechanoid Robots
Note: There are thirty times as many robots as Mechanoids,
approximately 24 billion.

Hope that help alittle

R.

Nice.
What page?

You'll find the info on page 81 in the SB2.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thanks.

[Dragon Mage]

Thanks.

NP. I was surprised no one remembered that section of SB2. There is no way the Mechanoids could have taken on whole galaxies at once with the population numbers given even when the where at their most powerful, IE 8 billion Mechanoids with 240 billion robots backing them up.

[flatline]

Thanks.

NP. I was surprised no one remembered that section of SB2. There is no way the Mechanoids could have taken on whole galaxies at once with the population numbers given even when the where at their most powerful, IE 8 billion Mechanoids with 240 billion robots backing them up.

I wonder how well those number jive with the original series. The way people talk about the mechanoids, I would have assumed that in their prime, their numbers would have been at least 2 orders of magnitude above that.

--flatline

[Dragon Mage]

Thanks.

NP. I was surprised no one remembered that section of SB2. There is no way the Mechanoids could have taken on whole galaxies at once with the population numbers given even when the where at their most powerful, IE 8 billion Mechanoids with 240 billion robots backing them up.

I wonder how well those number jive with the original series. The way people talk about the mechanoids, I would have assumed that in their prime, their numbers would have been at least 2 orders of magnitude above that.

--flatline

The 8 billion and 240 billion were their prime. Says so in the SB2 that I have quoted. They were and are beyond dangerous to any humanoids they attack and could destroy whole star systems to fuel their war machine. I don't think its numbers as much as people think. If your attacked they send down the swarms just to play. At the same time they carve up your planet as you are fighting for your life. Who could fight against that?

[The Beast]

Thanks.

NP. I was surprised no one remembered that section of SB2. There is no way the Mechanoids could have taken on whole galaxies at once with the population numbers given even when the where at their most powerful, IE 8 billion Mechanoids with 240 billion robots backing them up.

I wonder how well those number jive with the original series. The way people talk about the mechanoids, I would have assumed that in their prime, their numbers would have been at least 2 orders of magnitude above that.

--flatline

Those number are of the new Mechanoids from SB2. Not the numbers that they used to have. Going off of the numbers from the MT book, a single Mothership had an assault force and crew of at least 1,004,060,000. I say at least because 10,000 of that were Spider Fortresses, and I don't know if the crew for that are included in the other number. If it isn't, that number becomes 1,007,710,000.

So those two number consists of Wasps, Brutes, Runners, Brains, Mantis, Diggers, Thinmen, Runts, Skimmers, and Spider Fortesses (larger number including the SFs' crews if not accounted for already). It makes no mention of Oracles, Overlords, Tunnel Crawlers, Weavels, Transport Vehicles (not sure if they're robots or not), Octopus, Seeker Pods, Exterminators, Assault Probes, Black Widows, Cargo Freighters, Hauler Types 1, 2, and 3, and the Battle Cruisers.

Each Battle Cruiser has a max Crew & Strike Force of either 170,600 or 171,330, depending if the 2 SFs' crews are included in the first number or not.

What I haven't been able to find are any hard numbers such as how many Battle Cruisers accompany each Mothership, how many total Motherships there are, or what a Mechanoid fleet consists of. The only hard number is that 12 Motherships guard the doomsday sphere that's three times the size of Jupiter. For perspective, 1,321.3 Earths fit inside Jupiter, and Earth's population was 7.046 billion back in 2012.

So just off of the 12 Motherships, you're looking at a population of 12,048,720,000 to 12,092,520,000 total Mechanoids, whereas SB2 says there's currently 32,000,000,000 Mechanoids in their universe, and that number's at best 10% of what they used to be. That would leave at best 307,907,480,000 Mechanoids to conquer their galaxy while the rest guarded the doomsday weapon.

[say652]

While improbable a well supplied and prepared planet of Supers (did this already) would be able to defeat the first mothership at least.

[Chronicle]

320 billion hardly seems like enough to conquer a galaxy let alone 6 average (even smaller then average sized)galaxies. It wouldn't be hard to imagine it happening over a course of 50,000 years. But a force that size laying waste every humanoid world it comes across will eventually be noticed. The question is. Di they rape worlds and move on? If so it would be a slow process since they like to play with their food so to speak. A sweeping move like that would have to be pretty quick for it to be too late for the natives to notice

[Dragon Mage]

800 million currently not 32 billion. At least that's what my copy of SB2 says.

[The Beast]

800 million, which is about 10% of what they were before. That becomes 8 billion. I added to that the 24 billion robots, which is 32 billion. One could argue their robots number less than that in the past, or that the number is also about 10% of what they were before. So I will remove the robots from my numbers (even though I think they should be included, because Mechanoid robots don't like me).

A single Mothership has a minimum of 24,050,000 Mechanoids. This number is just the Wasps, Brutes, Runners, Brains, Diggers, and Mantis. We know there were 12 Motherships guarding the doomsday weapon, so that becomes 288,600,000. That would have left 7,711,400,000 Mechanoids to spread across their galaxy, plus robots. All of whom are programmed on the genetic level to exterminate all humanoid life forms, and are armed.

To put that in perspective, the US military is almost 1% of the population of the USA, and not every soldier is a combat arms MOS. They're support, which means they're not going to be as good at taking the fight to the enemy as the combat arms soldiers (especially National Guard and Reservists, who only do the one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer deal).

"But that's what nukes are for!" Yeah. Go to this link: http://www.carloslabs.com/node/16 and enter your zip code. Then select "Tsar bomb" (largest nuclear device ever detonated) and hit "Nuke it." Then start scrolling out. When you get out to all of North America stop, you just reached the size of one Mothership (surface area of 16,400,000 square km).

Fleets need a place to repair/resupply their ships. The Mechanoids bring their planet along with them.

[Warshield73]

I'm going to have to go with the Demons simply because they have magic and the Mechanoldsmobiles do not. I think magic beats tech any day, hands down.

I have to agree with this.

There are so many things the Demons could do with magic that the Mechanoids wouldn't have a chance. Also, the nature of demons is to corrupt others. Given the comparative simple-mindedness of the Mechanoids, I'd think the demons could corrupt them to the point that they wouldn't have to fight them at all.

Magic beats tech any day, somebody call Tolkeen tell them they're not all dead. NGR also needs to figure out that Operation Sea Storm was total disaster and the Gargoyles are about to eat them all. And somebody needs to tell the Lords of Magic from Dweomar that the planet of followers they had, the Mechanoids didn't destroy it, they just misplaced it.

Come on what little of the Demon fleet there is can't even take on the barely organized forces of the Three Galaxies now try an army of billions.

Can you please tell me where on Earth or Hades you get this?

Given the comparative simple-mindedness of the Mechanoids, I'd think the demons could corrupt them to the point that they wouldn't have to fight them at all.

The leadership of the Mechanoids has IQ, ME, MA in the 25-30 range, with a nice +4 to +6 save vs. magic bonus so good luck on that end. How on Earth do you corrupt a clone? Promise him women? Eternal life? Political power? The only method of "corrupting" the Mechanoids is how the AbM did it originally, by science and genetic alteration which is something that is way beyond the demons ability.

There is no historical precedent for anyone being able to divide, trick, or demoralize the Mechanoids in any fashion other then what the original AbM Oracle did hundreds of years ago and the normal bag of tricks the demons employ are useless.

However, there is plenty of precedence of the Demons being divided, tricked, & demoralized by each other, gods, and of course Dyvilians. If any demon lord or general ever managed to get the upper hand on the Mechanoids their rivals in Hades or enemies in Dyval would tear into them. Whatever the limits to the numbers, tech, and psionics the Mechanoids are unified in a way that few species are. The very nature of demons is to attack and conquer each other as much as anyone else. Just look how badly the infighting has screwed up the Taut Offensive and the minion war in general. Sorry folks, this imaginary matchup goes to the Mechanoids.

[Warshield73]

Magic beats tech any day, somebody call Tolkeen tell them they're not all dead.

I don't believe Tolkeen would've fallen to the CS. Kevin wrote it that way, but I don't think its realistic.

Do you know which forum your on?

NGR also needs to figure out that Operation Sea Storm was total disaster and the Gargoyles are about to eat them all. And somebody needs to tell the Lords of Magic from Dweomar that the planet of followers they had, the Mechanoids didn't destroy it, they just misplaced it.

Again, that's how it was written by Palladium.

Again, these are the PB forums right?

Come on what little of the Demon fleet there is can't even take on the barely organized forces of the Three Galaxies now try an army of billions.

Again, that's how it was written by Palladium. Just because Palladium choose to make a storyline go in a particular direction doesn't mean that's how it would actually play out if it was real, or in an game.

I am going to skip making fun of the "for real" comment and simply again say this is the Palladium Megaverse. All of the posts prior to yours deal with what is in the books so I assumed that was the conversation we were having.

Can you please tell me where on Earth or Hades you get this?

Because you can do more with magic than you can with technology. Technology can't even detect magic and magic-using forces could easily cause catastrophic damage to non-magic-using forces.

Palladium Books, limited only by your imagination. Might I suggest that is the problem.
The republic of Japan has scopes that can detect magic and see beings invisible by magic. The CS has restraints and detection devices that detect magic in use. Finally, there are dog boys, a creation of genetic science, to ID & track magic beings.

The leadership of the Mechanoids has IQ, ME, MA in the 25-30 range, with a nice +4 to +6 save vs. magic bonus so good luck on that end. How on Earth do you corrupt a clone? Promise him women? Eternal life? Political power? The only method of "corrupting" the Mechanoids is how the AbM did it originally, by science and genetic alteration which is something that is way beyond the demons ability.

We'll have to disagree on that.

Disagree? Simple question, do you allow people to have saving throws or is it just magic always wins? If no saving throws then the conversation, and any game you run, is pointless. If you do have saving throws then the attributes are completely relevant.

No offense, and I really mean no offense, but a game the way you run it just doesn't sound very interesting. Do all players in your games have to run mages to accomplish anything? I run Palladium because I can have a player in giant robot and another playing a dragon and they both get to achieve something, and both can win depending on there wits and the dice.

There is no historical precedent for anyone being able to divide, trick, or demoralize the Mechanoids in any fashion other then what the original AbM Oracle did hundreds of years ago and the normal bag of tricks the demons employ are useless.

No historical precedent? So what? Does that mean it couldn't happen because it hasn't happened yet? "640k of memory should be enough for anyone." -- Bill Gates, 1981

First, have to say that this is one of my favorite quotes and I use it in my Advanced Placement history class every year. But, it doesn't fit the discussion in the least. There is no historical precedent for this so you as the player or GM must come up with one and "Magic beats tech any day" don't cut it.

However, there is plenty of precedence of the Demons being divided, tricked, & demoralized by each other, gods, and of course Dyvilians. If any demon lord or general ever managed to get the upper hand on the Mechanoids their rivals in Hades or enemies in Dyval would tear into them.

Why? Because you say so?

No, because that is the history given in PFRPG, Hades Book, Dyval Book, Dimensional Outbreak, etc., etc.

Listen, the beauty of pen and paper RP is that you can make it very personal. You can change the Megaverse in any way you want, but this forum is about what is in the books not your mind as that is a very difficult thing to have a conversation about unless you personal preferences or available on PDF.

[eliakon]

No disrespect Nightfactory, but generally on the forums people ask that canon be used as the basis of discussion since that way everyone has a common ground to work from. That means that we have to assume that the materials in the books is, in fact, accurate. Unless we are explicitly talking about a non-canon subject then the answer "But I don't want it to be so" is not considered to be a valid argument. Offering counter examples is a great way to do things, but just simply stating "Well in my game it wouldn't work" doesn't do much other than tell the rest of us how your personal house rules work.

For the record I think that neither side would win. The Demons would have the initial advantage, which would last up until the Mechanoids mindrip the secrets of magic out of some Demonic flunky. Then the Mechanoids become a Megaversal Threat of epic proportions, and pretty much everyone and their god crawls out of the woodwork picking sides. The survivors of the resulting Armageddon can have fun restarting interdimensional civilization and pick names for the previous era, the war, and the current era.

[flatline]

No disrespect Nightfactory, but generally on the forums people ask that canon be used as the basis of discussion since that way everyone has a common ground to work from. That means that we have to assume that the materials in the books is, in fact, accurate. Unless we are explicitly talking about a non-canon subject then the answer "But I don't want it to be so" is not considered to be a valid argument. Offering counter examples is a great way to do things, but just simply stating "Well in my game it wouldn't work" doesn't do much other than tell the rest of us how your personal house rules work.

What I've bolded is true of some forum members only.

If you want canon answers, specify that in the original post. Otherwise don't complain when some people try to post answers that make sense rather than answers that are strictly canon.

--flatline

[eliakon]

No disrespect Nightfactory, but generally on the forums people ask that canon be used as the basis of discussion since that way everyone has a common ground to work from. That means that we have to assume that the materials in the books is, in fact, accurate. Unless we are explicitly talking about a non-canon subject then the answer "But I don't want it to be so" is not considered to be a valid argument. Offering counter examples is a great way to do things, but just simply stating "Well in my game it wouldn't work" doesn't do much other than tell the rest of us how your personal house rules work.

What I've bolded is true of some forum members only.

If you want canon answers, specify that in the original post. Otherwise don't complain when some people try to post answers that make sense rather than answers that are strictly canon.

Glad you said that, too.

That's a fine opinion to have. But it doesn't mean that you can just dismiss books by saying "nah, I don't think I like this part of that book, so I will dismiss it, and thus you are wrong" You are free to argue logically sure, but when a person posts something from the books, if you don't have more than a "but I don't like that, so its wrong" don't expect to be taken seriously. Or put another way, with out having some sort of basis in common, there is no discussion just a bunch of people declaiming that their opinion is the one true way. Canon provides that common ground. It doesn't have to be sacred untouchable writ, but when deviated from, it is, at minimum, good form to have a reason/explaination, and offer why that is. Other wise to the rest of the forums it just comes across as looking like a "no your wrong because your wrong" post.

[Warshield73]

That's a fine opinion to have. But it doesn't mean that you can just dismiss books by saying "nah, I don't think I like this part of that book, so I will dismiss it, and thus you are wrong"

I understand that. I guess I feel that the Mechanoids are too powerful. I don't believe in a unstoppable foe, especially in a RPG setting.

Fair point. I know people who feel the dame about the Splugorth and Coalition States. And just to clarify the Mechanoids are not unstoppable, they have been stopped before.

You are free to argue logically sure, but when a person posts something from the books, if you don't have more than a "but I don't like that, so its wrong" don't expect to be taken seriously. Or put another way, with out having some sort of basis in common, there is no discussion just a bunch of people declaiming that their opinion is the one true way. Canon provides that common ground. It doesn't have to be sacred untouchable writ, but when deviated from, it is, at minimum, good form to have a reason/explaination, and offer why that is. Other wise to the rest of the forums it just comes across as looking like a "no your wrong because your wrong" post.

Makes perfect sense to me. However, I don't think that Warshield's arguments were all sound.

Fair enough. But just to be clear,

"no your wrong because your wrong"

this is exactly how you came off, intentionally or not and when your not using the common reference point (i.e. the books) it left nowhere for the conversation to go.

[Warshield73]

For the record I think that neither side would win. The Demons would have the initial advantage, which would last up until the Mechanoids mindrip the secrets of magic out of some Demonic flunky. Then the Mechanoids become a Megaversal Threat of epic proportions, and pretty much everyone and their god crawls out of the woodwork picking sides. The survivors of the resulting Armageddon can have fun restarting interdimensional civilization and pick names for the previous era, the war, and the current era.

Solid point here. Truthfully I took this, going on the title of the forum and the Dimensional Outbreak book, as fleet engagement. Who would win a war if the demons invaded Mechanoids universe. In that instance, I hold to my previous statement. However, I do not think the Mechanoids could wipe demons out and there is no way they could invade Hades or Dyval. So in that instance, I agree you could say that neither side could truly win.

I like the scenario of Megaversal Armageddon you generated. Very Babylon 5.

[eliakon]

For the record I think that neither side would win. The Demons would have the initial advantage, which would last up until the Mechanoids mindrip the secrets of magic out of some Demonic flunky. Then the Mechanoids become a Megaversal Threat of epic proportions, and pretty much everyone and their god crawls out of the woodwork picking sides. The survivors of the resulting Armageddon can have fun restarting interdimensional civilization and pick names for the previous era, the war, and the current era.

Solid point here. Truthfully I took this, going on the title of the forum and the Dimensional Outbreak book, as fleet engagement. Who would win a war if the demons invaded Mechanoids universe. In that instance, I hold to my previous statement. However, I do not think the Mechanoids could wipe demons out and there is no way they could invade Hades or Dyval. So in that instance, I agree you could say that neither side could truly win.

I like the scenario of Megaversal Armageddon you generated. Very Babylon 5.

Yah its all fun and games till the Floopers wind up being the Last Race Standing, and become the new Elder Race for the Megavers 2.0 reboot

[Warshield73]

For the record I think that neither side would win. The Demons would have the initial advantage, which would last up until the Mechanoids mindrip the secrets of magic out of some Demonic flunky. Then the Mechanoids become a Megaversal Threat of epic proportions, and pretty much everyone and their god crawls out of the woodwork picking sides. The survivors of the resulting Armageddon can have fun restarting interdimensional civilization and pick names for the previous era, the war, and the current era.

Solid point here. Truthfully I took this, going on the title of the forum and the Dimensional Outbreak book, as fleet engagement. Who would win a war if the demons invaded Mechanoids universe. In that instance, I hold to my previous statement. However, I do not think the Mechanoids could wipe demons out and there is no way they could invade Hades or Dyval. So in that instance, I agree you could say that neither side could truly win.

I like the scenario of Megaversal Armageddon you generated. Very Babylon 5.

Yah its all fun and games till the Floopers wind up being the Last Race Standing, and become the new Elder Race for the Megavers 2.0 reboot

Could be worse, could be wing tips as the new elder race.

[Chronicle]

After further looking it would seem the mechanoids win.

After researching some things i have also come to realize that even though the mechanoids control 6 or so galaxies, no one has come up with an idea that maybe these might be dwarf galaxies which could range from 1600 to 32,000 light years in size. something to think about.

[Zer0 Kay]

Does it matter the size? How many galaxies do the demons have?

Mods: Why hasn't this been locked as a year+ necro post when Dragunov vs. The megaverse got tagged for being necro when it was less than a year old? Cuz enquiring minds want to know.

[The Beast]

Does it matter the size? How many galaxies do the demons have?

Mods: Why hasn't this been locked as a year+ necro post when Dragunov vs. The megaverse got tagged for being necro when it was less than a year old? Cuz enquiring minds want to know.

Either because none of them have checked in here recently, or because they realize they'd have to lock all the threads in the Mechanoid section since they all fall under that rule and no one's opened a new post in here since Feb AFAIK.

[Tor]

DB6p100 the Enormous Tentacles of normal Demon Planets can reach 1000 miles, but it's unclear how fast they move, it's probably not 'instant' from the maw to the full reach so it may allow enemies to simply shoot at the tentacles from a distance when they're outstretched. They just need to keep in mind the necessity to withdraw if they enter within 1000 miles to attack the main body of the planet. Even if they're able to fly at Mach 10 like the planet, that'd be over 7 minutes to travel the distance. Even if the planet was moving toward an opponent as they launched the tentacles and you wanted to stack that to Mach 20, you're still looking at over 3 minutes to hit people at that barrier. There's mentions of 'Gravity Glands' you can destroy to free a 200 mile radius, but since these only generate 1 G I don't really get the point of doing that in star combat. Their 500 mile energy blast is a bit more impressive.

DB12p105 Cormal actually has gravity glands worth avoiding, reaching 250 000 miles (1250 times as far as a normal Demon Planet) and they actually have a described penalty (unlike Demon Planets, unless I missed something other than the 1 G) of preventing Star/Rift drives from working.

They can actually gravity-beam something within 125 000 miles. This seems like the main weapon of the Demon Fleet. I don't know of anything else to compare. The repulsor function I can't find a range for so I'm assuming it's also 125 000 miles.

Initially I did not know if Cormal had Enormous Tentacles like normal demon planets do. The MDC by location is listed differently and it seems like they might've been left out unless I'm not noticing it. The order is:

Demon Planets

Main Body
Enormous Tentacles
Nerve Clusters
Digestive Organs
Hearts
Brain Nodes
Gravity Gland
Blood Vessels
Major Artery
Epidermis

Cormal

Main Body
Brain Node
Gravity Glands
Organs

Nerve Clusters
Digestive Organs
Hearts
Blood Vessels
Major Artery
Epidermis

DB12p106 does mention under 'Enormous Maw Tentacles' that they are twice as long, so he should be able to attack up to 2000 miles with them. I guess I just don't know how much MDC they have? I guess maybe double due to 'twice as thick' or maybe quintuple based on organs all being 5x. Up to GM I guess.

Cormal can also energy-blast a 2000 miles as well. Castle Halthhag also has one with equal range on DB12p109 but only 1/3 the damage. Their 5000 mile range Cruise Missiles are more of a threat.

DB12p133 the Cruise Missiles of the Demon Fury Frigade can only reach 1000 miles, but have limited payload and can be shot down. Hell Fury missiles going Mach 15 for a full 8 minutes (per Pg137) would only be able to go 1522.414104 miles.

DB12p135 the Dark Energy Cannons of the Bone Maw Carrier can reach 200 miles, unlimited payload, can't be shot down.

Now: let's look a the top-tier of range for Mechanoids...

Trilogy page 95: Mother Ship: 52 000 kilometres plasma. That's 32,311.3 miles.

The Mechanoid Mothership is basically capable of defeating anything except Cormal.

Cormal v. Mothership would basically come down to: the Mothership is going to park far away (as its main unit is very slow, a meager 40 kmph unless they go to warp) and remove the Detachable Assault Unit and Planet Excavation Head Quarters (or DAUPEHQ). The main unit will try to stay say 500 thousand to 1 million miles away from Cormal, because if Cormal can get within 250 000 miles of them, they can no longer go to warp to escape and are screwed.

The DAUPEHQ will close in at a more agile 830kmph (515.738mph) and park 32 000 miles away and begin firing. Cormal will advance on the DAUPEHQ to get it in range of its more dangerous weapon systems. The DAUPEHQ will attempt to fly away to keep their distance advantage, however Cormal will hit it with a concentrated beam from a Gravity Gland to prevent its escape.

This then becomes a contest of: can the DAUPEHQ's plasma weapons destroy the gravity gland and escape before the gland draws it in range of Cormal's closer range weapons. I don't know how quickly Cormal's glands can draw things in though.

Make this assumption, not in Cormal's favor, and in favor of the Mechanoid mothership: the gravity gland doesn't draw them closer, the focused beam just holds them in place so Cormal can fly towards them at Mach 15 or 11 418.1058 mph. This would mean Cormal could get from the outermost range of the Mothership's plasma to melee range within 2.829830145732228194977839494183 hours or 169.78980874393369169867036965098 minutes or 679.15923497573476679468147860392 melee rounds. Let's round that up to 680 melee rounds.

The problem here: Cormal knows Impervious to Fire and Impervious to Energy and Invulnerability, all of which I think would make it and all its body parts (including its Gravity Glands) immune to the Plasma weapons of the DAUPEHQ. Plus, heck, even if this wasn't done, the plasma weapons don't do very much damage. Even if you converted SDC to directly to MDC, 6D6x30 isn't all that much.

Based on that, I think Cormal could definitely defeat the DAUPEHQ at which point, the core unit of the mothership is probably just going to hightail it to FTL before Cormal gets close enough to affect it with the Gravity Glands. So maybe a stalemate. Plus Cormal can heal damage and the Mechanoids would have to go to the effort of repairing it.

If we want an interesting scenario: have Cormal wake up and leave the Demon Fleet and go do his own thing. I think only Dominators and Robotech-tier space-ships are able to compete with Cormal's range, and even then, his ability to cast protective spells to protect himself are going to make hurting him implausible with energy weapons.

Mechanoids vs Fury Frigates and Maw Carriers would seem like more of a toss up.

Even a normal Demon Planet would know Impervious to Fire to counter the DAUPEHQ plasma weapons, but on the flip-side, they don't have Cormal's advanced gravity glands, so it would be plausible for the DAUPEHQ to withdraw from combat before getting in range of the DP's weapons. The DAUPEHQ is slower though, so they would have to retreat to the Mothership and re-attach to go to FTL in a prolonged chase.

[The Beast]

...A Mechanoid Mothership is basically capable of defeating anything except Cormal...

Fixed.

[Tor]

A right, there's more than one...

I think even 12 of them would still be unable to beat Cormal though, unless there's some decent weapons I'm forgetting here.

Even ignoring Cormal, while a Mechanoid Mothership could hit-and-run a smaller Demon Planet, I don't think they could beat them either.

Can someone do up a scenario where 12 Mechanoid Motherships are able to defeat the weakest possible rolling of a Demon Planet's stats?

This keeping in mind that Impervious to Fire is going to nullify their main weapon and they have enough PPE to keep it up pretty much indefinitely?

All I can figure is prolonged harassment where you just keep harassing it until it runs out of PPE. But considering that Demon Planets have at least 4 ley lines built into them, I don't think that's feasible.

Also keeping in mind that once you get within 100 000 miles, this thing can prevent your FTL, and FTL is about the only way that Mechanoids can move at at decent speed to get away from these Mach 10 Monsters.

I notice that Cormal has Bio-Regeneration as a natural ability. Hundreds to thousands per minute.

I cannot seem to find bio-regeneration listed for Demon Planets under MDC or Natural Abilities.

Does this mean normal ones don't have bio-regen and have to rely on their magic spells or psionic powers to regenerate MDC?

FYI. Since no one seems to want to look it up. Even if this thread is a little old...I thought I would post this from SB2:

Note: The estimated total population of Mechanoids in the universe
is a paltry 800 million. This number is about 10% compared
to past numbers, but then they have just made their reappearance
in the universe. They continue to build their numbers.

Mechanoid Robots
Note: There are thirty times as many robots as Mechanoids,
approximately 24 billion.

You'll find the info on page 81 in the SB2.

There is no way the Mechanoids could have taken on whole galaxies at once with the population numbers given even when the where at their most powerful, IE 8 billion Mechanoids with 240 billion robots backing them up.

Maybe they wiped them out 1 at a time rather then engaging them all simultaneously? Not enough to wreck the sum but enough to beat individual powers because they wouldn't unify? Or they just got outmaneuvered and spread resources too thinly to defend against concentrated Mechanoid assaults? 2 soldiers can invade an outpost guarded by 4 soldiers if there is only 1 per corner of your fort.

It might depend on the power level of a given galaxy, maybe the galaxies encountered by the mechanoids had much weaker inhabitants than the Three Galaxies? Perhaps smaller poplations or lower inferior technologies?

Also regarding the 240 billion robots thing, I don't know if anyone brought this up, but I noticed in MITp124 that there is an estimated total of 192 billion robots. It is possibly they were underestimated though.

The 240 is based on 800 000 x 30 x 10 but 800 million is the "estimated" total population and it is actually "about" 10%. The only thing set in stone is 30 robots per Mechanoid, really. So there's a lot of wiggle room in estimations in both MIT and SB2 to account for the 192 billion vs 240 billion discrepancy.

There is no historical precedent for anyone being able to divide, trick, or demoralize the Mechanoids in any fashion other then what the original AbM Oracle did hundreds of years ago and the normal bag of tricks the demons employ are useless.

RCB2 (Pantheons) 157 has a goddess with an IQ of 29 thinking she can approach Mechanoids as a potential ally. I realize she's a "mad" goddess but she doesn't seem stupid. If she thinks that a non-human bio-wizard body will make them befriending her plausible, I see no grounds to disagree with her, she's far more experienced and intelligent than I am. All rogue/technical means she's well versed in lore and manipulation. She hasn't made contact but she's been observing them and I trust her plans will succeed.

how many demons do you think there are? 1000? 10,000? 1,000,000? I'd say they probably number in the billions too.

I guess the question is more like... billions of what vs billions of whom? A lot of demons are slow land-locked melee-range fighters, tactically I wonder what their impact would be in mass warfare. I'm more concerned about the big ships and the massive range they would have in space combat. A billion demons who can't confront a mothership firing from 30 000 miles in orbit are kinda useless.

Hiding and dimensional teleporting and ripping up ships from the inside is probably going to be their main tactic, but whether they can successfully target a teleport moving through space, dunno.

Luckily for them, the big Mechanoid ships (unlike similar equivalents in Robotech or Phase World) have pretty slow FTL speeds which could make it feasible.

I still think you'd need some kind of aid in knowing where to teleport though, and whatever sensor systems you rely on to do that, the Mechanoids could target them.

The big deal with the Demon Fleet is controlling Cormal and his kids. Those things I can see trumping the Mechanoids, but if Cormal wakes up and takes his babies to go live with her in another city, then the Demon Fleet is going to be at a severe disadvantage.

In Megaverse Builder, there's a alternative dimension in which the CS & Federation of Magic unite to fight the Mechanoids (p26). But according to you that's not possible because "there is no precedent".

I would posit that such a FoM would be dominated by the Society of Sages instead of the City of Brass, and that such a CS would have re-absorbed (or never kicked out in the first place) the Vanguard. Perhaps it was even a FoM which the Tolkeen never left, because the Great City never attacked Chi-Town. Maybe a Lizard Mage and 4-armed gods never got enough sway in this FoM to form Stormspire/Dweomer.

[Zer0 Kay]

Does it matter the size? How many galaxies do the demons have?

Mods: Why hasn't this been locked as a year+ necro post when Dragunov vs. The megaverse got tagged for being necro when it was less than a year old? Cuz enquiring minds want to know.

Either because none of them have checked in here recently, or because they realize they'd have to lock all the threads in the Mechanoid section since they all fall under that rule and no one's opened a new post in here since Feb AFAIK.

OR they locked the Dragunov vs. the megaverse thread because they misread something. I dunnoh. I thought the necro post was supposed to be like a year or something. Oh well.

[The Beast]

Does it matter the size? How many galaxies do the demons have?

Mods: Why hasn't this been locked as a year+ necro post when Dragunov vs. The megaverse got tagged for being necro when it was less than a year old? Cuz enquiring minds want to know.

Either because none of them have checked in here recently, or because they realize they'd have to lock all the threads in the Mechanoid section since they all fall under that rule and no one's opened a new post in here since Feb AFAIK.

OR they locked the Dragunov vs. the megaverse thread because they misread something. I dunnoh. I thought the necro post was supposed to be like a year or something. Oh well.

I'm thinking they're only locking the threads if there's a report, or if it's in a section that's frequented by the mods more often. This section tends to be the least active one.

Now that I think about it, that may be why they're leaving them unlocked as well...

[Alrik Vas]

Is Cormal from the HU demon books? There's a version of Impervious to Energy, and a version of Invulnerability that are actually not as buff as the Rifts versions. Though I forget the books they're in. I guess the dimension Cormal is fighting in might govern how the spells work...a la megavers builder, or something.

I really don't know. >_>

[The Beast]

Is Cormal from the HU demon books? There's a version of Impervious to Energy, and a version of Invulnerability that are actually not as buff as the Rifts versions. Though I forget the books they're in. I guess the dimension Cormal is fighting in might govern how the spells work...a la megavers builder, or something.

I really don't know. >_>

He's in DB12.

[Zer0 Kay]

Is Cormal from the HU demon books? There's a version of Impervious to Energy, and a version of Invulnerability that are actually not as buff as the Rifts versions. Though I forget the books they're in. I guess the dimension Cormal is fighting in might govern how the spells work...a la megavers builder, or something.

I really don't know. >_>

He's in DB12.

Wait how is the HU version of Invulnerable not more buff than Rifts? In HU it IS invulnerable, while in Rifts it is MDC. In HU one could argue that N&S is close enough to be "same world" in which case there is an MD weapon that by HU rules does no damage to someone with Invulnerability.

[Alrik Vas]

actually, unless I'm not remembering correctly, invulnerability in HU works like this:

You take no damage from anything that isn't magic or psionics. You take half damage from SN PS and particle beams.

In Rifts, there're no exceptions aside magic and psionics, really. the extra MDC is there to be MDC vs the few things that actually hurt you.

[Zer0 Kay]

actually, unless I'm not remembering correctly, invulnerability in HU works like this:

You take no damage from anything that isn't magic or psionics. You take half damage from SN PS and particle beams.

In Rifts, there're no exceptions aside magic and psionics, really. the extra MDC is there to be MDC vs the few things that actually hurt you.

I'll have to look it up again, but could have sworn in Rifts all it did was give the PC MDC.

[Tor]

No it also makes you impervious to energy and resistance to poisons and stuff.

Only thing I've been unclear on is whether the bonus MDC you gain is also impervious to energy, or if energy can deplete the MDC but not harm you afterward.

[Alrik Vas]

the MDC is there, basically, to allow SDC creatures to have some padding vs Magic and Psionics when they cast Invulnerability on themselves. Otherwise it's like,

"Mwahaha! I'm invincible!"

*firebolt*

"aaaarrrggghhh..." /dead

[flatline]

+10 save vs psionics, as i recall (it's been a while).

[Killer Cyborg]

the MDC is there, basically, to allow SDC creatures to have some padding vs Magic and Psionics when they cast Invulnerability on themselves. Otherwise it's like,

"Mwahaha! I'm invincible!"

*firebolt*

"aaaarrrggghhh..." /dead

Correct.

And well stated.