An alternate thought...

[Asterios]

I'd guess the CoT made him much less trusting of most except those few he keeps real close.

Which is why he should Compartmentalise his operations, seriously he should have 1 project lead for each of the projects, he should have had someone in charge of the RRT and acting as PR and only working on those, instead of having said person doing all that and other stuff to boot.

I've seen companies and such who have posted from conventions and such, and yet it seems like most of Palladium is computer illiterate, they remind me of my mother, when she needs something done on the computer she calls me up and asks, just like my youngest brother, they never bothered to get into the Computer generation.

PB probably still believes that computers are a passing fad.

[Seto Kaiba]

And yet a company that started off small like Palladium, still does a lot in the field of Paper RPGs, also while they may put out card games I would not call that their main line, [...]

Funnily enough, this is another example of you not doing your homework... because Steve Jackson Games actually credits their card game Munchkin as their main product line and top seller. GURPS's in second place there.

[...] in fact wouldn't really call them CCG's and not really played around here(lets face it if it ain't Yu-Gi-Oh or Magic the Gathering it ain't selling).

They did have a stint in CCGs with the Illuminati TCG, which they did modestly well with during the 90s, and that probably did a fair bit to help grow the company.

But let us continue, SJG was actually into the computer age back in the 90's [...] and yet Palladium is still not up to where SJG was in the 90's, and I've looked so far can't find a list of store distributors for PB and yet every other game company has said list.

In this day in age, I think pretty much anyone would agree that Palladium's minimal and primitive internet presence is a significant liability. Like every industry, gaming runs by the principle of "adapt or die", and Palladium's been curiously reluctant to adapt.

So please explain a company that started the same time as Palladium, had the same number of people then Palladium, didn't have any permits like Robotech or TMNT and yet is doing better then Palladium and is doing better all around?

It's not that hard to understand... so I'm not sure why you even needed to ask. Palladium has remained staunchly loyal to the somewhat diminished format that is "traditional" RPGs, while other companies (SJG being a good example) diversified their operations into other, emerging areas of gaming. They got into a host of other formats like card games, CCGs, dice games, board games, and computer games. Palladium, meanwhile, stuck with the pen-and-paper RPG via their own original IP and an assortment of licensed IPs with pathetically limited appeal and no future.

In fact, Palladium seems to have a bit of a history of partnering with exactly the wrong companies... like their flirtation with a RIFTS video game for the crash-and-burn failure that was the Nokia N-Gage.

Really, it's self-explanatory. As the song goes... they did it to themselves (do-do-doot) and that's what really hurts.

My other statement is fact, you are digging for any excuse for Palladium and it is now becoming tiresome and droll.

Friend, facts are few and far between in your alarmist argument... as the above-quoted material clearly indicates. I don't seek to defend Palladium (indeed, I've repeatedly commented that they do bear some portion of the blame for this fiasco), just to offer a sense of actual perspective in the face of ridiculous and increasingly offensive attempts to pin ALL of the blame on Palladium and/or suggest that they're somehow doing it just to screw you.

Instead, it will be chop shop el cheapo crap. You will be able to put it in a dictionary by "Chinese-junk" as an example.

Okay, you got me... that's different from the overwhelming majority of merchandise for Robotech in what way?

[jaymz]

In regards to availability.....The greater Toronto Area is about 5 million people with several gaming stores throughout. 1 store in the entire city carries Palladium product. The 4th or maybe 5th largest urban area on the continent and only one store carries their product and even then not consistently (example they do not have any copies of more recent books right now).

Many people in these forums have indicated similar in a variety of cities across North America. To me that is rather telling in general. Are they dire straights but no but they are certainly not much beyond only surviving.

[Asterios]

Let me interject one major factor here, when Kevin dies or retires, that is the end of Palladium Books, he has not brought in any new blood or anything, so what it comes down to is, the company will die, its just a matter of time.

[Seto Kaiba]

Let me interject one major factor here, when Kevin dies or retires, that is the end of Palladium Books, he has not brought in any new blood or anything, so what it comes down to is, the company will die, its just a matter of time.

Okay, so it's a race... what'll implode first, Robotech or Palladium?

[Jorel]

I'd like to think it is bigger that one man and I think the first obvious choice is Wayne or one of Kevins kids gets it.

[Asterios]

I'd guess the CoT made him much less trusting of most except those few he keeps real close.

Actually how aware of the facts of the case are you Jorel on the CoT ?, cause I saw the news blurb on it and not sure how or why it would effect their company ?

Book publisher employee sentenced in embezzlement case
Wednesday, April 26, 2006

By MATTHEW LANE
Times-News

DETROIT, Mich - A former Palladium Books employee charged with stealing thousands of dollars worth of artwork, transparencies and books from the company was sentenced to probation last week.

Steve Sheiring, the former sales manager at Palladium Books, was sentenced to one year non-reporting probation on April 20 in the 3rd Circuit Court in Detroit. According to prosecutors, Sheiring paid $47,080 in restitution to Palladium Books.

Sheiring pleaded guilty on April 14 to a misdemeanor charge of embezzlement under $200. Sheiring was initially charged with embezzlement over $20,000, a felony.

"It was pled down to a misdemeanor, agreed to by the complainant, and there was restitution that was paid," said Maria Miller, assistant district attorney in the Wayne County (Mich.) Prosecutor's Office.

Palladium Books, headquartered in Taylor, Mich, has published dozens of role-playing books over the years, including such popular lines as Rifts, Robotech and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness. The company is celebrating its 25th anniversary this year.

Kevin Siembieda, president of Palladium Books, announced in December 2005 numerous items had been stolen from him and the company. Some of the items stolen included original artwork, animation cels, transparencies for more than 50 different titles, collectors edition books, and various Star Wars collectibles.

"(Sheiring) took books, undercharged for certain services, gave away free books; he stole copyright information, rare Star Wars figurines, and equipment," Miller said. "A number of items."

On April 19, Siembieda issued a press release asking the gaming community for help in keeping Palladium Books in business and estimated the embezzlement caused $850,000 to $1.3 million in damages to Palladium Books.

Prosecutors cannot confirm the value of the items stolen.

"We usually don't do it that way," Miller said. "If he's trading goods and services and intangibles and things that have an auction value, then we just estimate when it's not pure money."

Miller said the thefts took place from 2002 through 2004 and were discovered after Palladium Books did an accounting of its inventory and discovered items were missing. Sheiring left Palladium Books in February 2005.

Miller said no items were recovered from Sheiring and that prosecutors do not know how or why Sheiring took the items.

Sheiring faced a maximum sentence of one year in prison and/or a $2,000 fine on the misdemeanor charge in which he plead to. On the initial felony charge, the maximum sentence could have been 10 years in prison and/or a $15,000 fine or three times the amount embezzled, Miller said.

For more information on Palladium Books visit www.palladiumbooks.com.

[Scott Gibbons]

Actually how aware of the facts of the case are you Jorel on the CoT ?, cause I saw the news blurb on it and not sure how or why it would effect their company ?

Jorel was referencing how the CoT would have affected Kevin himself - Steve Sheiring was a very long-time friend of Kevin's going back to before PB existed - in fact Kevin once said that Steve was one of the people who convinced him to start the company. Steve was also the player in Kevin's Defiler's game who inspired the character of Lord Coake, the founder of the Cyber-Knights in Rifts. He was far more than just an employee to Kevin, which is what made his betrayal so much more brutal on everyone at the company.

[Scott Gibbons]

Which is why he should Compartmentalise his operations, seriously he should have 1 project lead for each of the projects, he should have had someone in charge of the RRT and acting as PR and only working on those, instead of having said person doing all that and other stuff to boot.

Ok, let's all say it together - PB has only 6 workers to get everything done. Now exactly which member of their vast workforce would you, if you were Kevin, break off to work exclusively on RRT?

I read your comment here and others like it from other forum members and it just convinces me that all such posters have no experience working in small business (a non-franchise business with 8 or fewer employees). I can tell you, as one who has worked in such a business, compartmentalization as you envision it is an unobtainable dream. In small business, everyone ends up wearing multiple hats. Even the newest-employee, pimple-faced part-time high school student hired to help pack boxes is going to also be sweeping the floors, taking out the trash and running errands. Because in small business, every resource is used to the max. That's just the way it is - a small business can't afford to operate any other way. Suggesting that Kevin put one person aside to "only work on one project" like RRT is so ridiculous an idea that it should be laughed to scorn.

I've seen companies and such who have posted from conventions and such, and yet it seems like most of Palladium is computer illiterate, they remind me of my mother, when she needs something done on the computer she calls me up and asks, just like my youngest brother, they never bothered to get into the Computer generation.

PB probably still believes that computers are a passing fad.

Wow, talk about shifting the attack (and attack it is, not a legitimate criticism or even complaint with the way you worded it).

Ok, how about this - I use my cell phone every day. I am quite proficient in the systems that I use often, like using it to call people, look up destinations to drive to, and check e-mails or go on the internet. However, I still need my wife's help when I want to text a picture to someone and if she's not around I just don't do it. So, does that make me someone who 'believes that cell phones are a passing fad'?

Putting aside the thought that maybe the guys at the convention are so busy and tired that they just don't have the energy to spare to put into posting - just because PB doesn't have anyone on their crew posting from a convention does not mean that either A) they are incapable of doing so or that B) they are somehow anti-computer. To make such a fantastical leap is both illogical and highly emotional. I could use other words, but I'll stop here because I don't want to cross the line from disagreeing with your post to personally attacking you.

[Asterios]

Actually how aware of the facts of the case are you Jorel on the CoT ?, cause I saw the news blurb on it and not sure how or why it would effect their company ?

Jorel was referencing how the CoT would have affected Kevin himself - Steve Sheiring was a very long-time friend of Kevin's going back to before PB existed - in fact Kevin once said that Steve was one of the people who convinced him to start the company. Steve was also the player in Kevin's Defiler's game who inspired the character of Lord Coake, the founder of the Cyber-Knights in Rifts. He was far more than just an employee to Kevin, which is what made his betrayal so much more brutal on everyone at the company.

Yes but my problem i'm having trouble wrapping my head around is how is the loss of prints, books and so on (no actual money or works in progress) harmed the company? from what it sounds like Palladium was in financial straights, which was evident in the fact they were doing an inventory of merchandise, and something tells me they are in said financial straights again, with product they said was almost complete (RRT Core game system) that is now over a year from when the KS finished and no product, in fact the only ones who have seen anything from this game is the ones who attended the conventions and got the convention exclusives (which is another kettle of fish). many of us put a large sum of money into this KS and we are now getting angry we have nothing to show for it as of yet, and when we have people who say well you should have known its Palladium, i'm shocked people would even tolerate such behavior from anyone.

All it sounds like is people making excuses for Palladium, which just promotes and enables Palladium to make the same excuses.

Right now i'm debating on whether to go draft a writ for the courts demanding an accounting of the backers financial monies placed into this KS which since i'm a backer I do have a right to get that done, and if the money was used for anything other then what it was intended for gonna be trouble a brewing.

Furthermore to your new post:

PB made enough money to hire someone else or two for this project, seriously the fact PB only has 6 people is their fault and their fault alone.

its a statement of fact I've seen companies who are even smaller then Palladium with even more fans then Palladium take the time to make a post or two from the conventions, so all your doing is enabling such bad behavior from Palladium, congrats your the problem instead of the solution.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes but my problem i'm having trouble wrapping my head around is how is the loss of prints, books and so on (no actual money or works in progress) harmed the company?

Er... maybe you didn't read that carefully. According to that copied news report he stole and either gave away or sold various books, which would be lost inventory which Palladium had paid to produce and would not be recovering profit from. He stole production source material including typesetting transparencies of over 50 different books, as well as original art works used in various books, which would require both time and money to recreate if needed for reprints of books or reuse in new books. He's also described as both having stolen office equipment and undercharging for services, which comes out of the company's bottom line because they have to pay to replace that equipment and if they're taking a loss on services that's no good for the bottom line.

Almost everything he stole, with the exception of personal possessions from the office, ultimately harmed the company's bottom line because it cost them time, money, and resources to replace the material that was stolen. The inventory he gave away is pure lost profit for the obvious reason. Undercharging for a service means that the company is losing money providing that service. The time spent doing inventory to figure out just what was stolen is time Kevin has to pay his staff for, but they're not actually working on new products... that's lost time. Likewise, the time spent in court is time spent not working on books... that's also lost time.

Right now i'm debating on whether to go draft a writ for the courts demanding an accounting of the backers financial monies placed into this KS which since i'm a backer I do have a right to get that done, and if the money was used for anything other then what it was intended for gonna be trouble a brewing.

Good luck with that, man... I expect the courts will politely but firmly tell you to do something anatomically improbable unless you can provide them something other than paranoid conspiracy theories.

[Asterios]

Yes but my problem i'm having trouble wrapping my head around is how is the loss of prints, books and so on (no actual money or works in progress) harmed the company?

Er... maybe you didn't read that carefully. According to that copied news report he stole and either gave away or sold various books, which would be lost inventory which Palladium had paid to produce and would not be recovering profit from. He stole production source material including typesetting transparencies of over 50 different books, as well as original art works used in various books, which would require both time and money to recreate if needed for reprints of books or reuse in new books. He's also described as both having stolen office equipment and undercharging for services, which comes out of the company's bottom line because they have to pay to replace that equipment and if they're taking a loss on services that's no good for the bottom line.

Almost everything he stole, with the exception of personal possessions from the office, ultimately harmed the company's bottom line because it cost them time, money, and resources to replace the material that was stolen. The inventory he gave away is pure lost profit for the obvious reason. Undercharging for a service means that the company is losing money providing that service. The time spent doing inventory to figure out just what was stolen is time Kevin has to pay his staff for, but they're not actually working on new products... that's lost time. Likewise, the time spent in court is time spent not working on books... that's also lost time.

Right now i'm debating on whether to go draft a writ for the courts demanding an accounting of the backers financial monies placed into this KS which since i'm a backer I do have a right to get that done, and if the money was used for anything other then what it was intended for gonna be trouble a brewing.

Good luck with that, man... I expect the courts will politely but firmly tell you to do something anatomically improbable unless you can provide them something other than paranoid conspiracy theories.

Actually you should go check the law, this is cut and dry, i'm a Business Lawyer and I've filed writs like this for others, and its a simple matter for me to do, the law is on my side you know the laws which help prevent Fraud and such from being committed, not saying fraud is being committed but an exploratory review of the financials for this project will answer that.

As to what was stolen, you should really ready the bottom line of what his sentence was a year of unsupervised probabtion, with $47K restitution, usually restitution is in the amount lost, sometimes more, so far the restitution amount and the amount of the sentence doesn't match up to what Palladium was saying was lost.

[Scott Gibbons]

As to what was stolen, you should really ready the bottom line of what his sentence was a year of unsupervised probabtion, with $47K restitution, usually restitution is in the amount lost, sometimes more, so far the restitution amount and the amount of the sentence doesn't match up to what Palladium was saying was lost.

And if you were really a lawyer you would have realized that Steve was able to plea down the charges and the restitution amount - or did you not see the lines from the article you yourself quoted

Sheiring pleaded guilty on April 14 to a misdemeanor charge of embezzlement under $200. Sheiring was initially charged with embezzlement over $20,000, a felony.

"It was pled down to a misdemeanor, agreed to by the complainant, and there was restitution that was paid," said Maria Miller, assistant district attorney in the Wayne County (Mich.) Prosecutor's Office.

Unfortunately plea deals like this are cut all the time, because it is more expensive to fight a protracted court battle and win than it is to simply cut your losses and move on. As a "Business Lawyer" you should be more aware of this fact that anyone else on these boards.

And if you had actually done your homework on this subject before you posted, you would have read through the "Help Save Palladium Books" forum where Kevin himself addressed the seeming incongruity between the damages PB suffered and the amount of restitution they got back. I'll boil it down for you - it comes down to the old saying 'you can't get blood from a stone.' Steve had already spent most of what he'd stolen and couldn't afford to pay any more restitution than what he did. Yes, Kevin could have demanded a full trial, driving hard for Steve to go to jail and have to pay back the full amount of damages that he inflicted. But the cost of getting that 'pound of flesh', as Kevin stated, would have been more than the company could have born, and PB would have shut its doors. In the end Kevin chose to get what he could and close the door on that terrible chapter of PB's history - instead he chose to focus on getting PB through the storm and healthy again.

Again, I find it hard to believe that you don't already realize all of this. To become a "Business Lawyer" you would have had to study the laws that govern embezzlement, which study would have included case studies on companies which had suffered from that crime and the types of long-lasting effects it can have. I know this because I have friends who are currently in college studying business law and they tell me that is part of what they are learning.

I hate to say it Asterios, but you seem to have either shown a huge lack of knowledge in your chosen profession or you were not accurate in your former statements... would you care to clarify?

[Scott Gibbons]

Right now i'm debating on whether to go draft a writ for the courts demanding an accounting of the backers financial monies placed into this KS which since i'm a backer I do have a right to get that done, and if the money was used for anything other then what it was intended for gonna be trouble a brewing.

Actually you should go check the law, this is cut and dry, i'm a Business Lawyer and I've filed writs like this for others, and its a simple matter for me to do, the law is on my side you know the laws which help prevent Fraud and such from being committed, not saying fraud is being committed but an exploratory review of the financials for this project will answer that.

Thank you for your suggestion Asterios; I actually did "go check the law" . I didn't find anything allowing a backer to submit a writ to the courts "demanding an accounting of the backers financial monies into this KS" as you say you can do. What I did find was this:

...Legally backers do not hold the same rights as a typical investor might elsewhere, placing them in a difficult position if they found themselves financially cheated; however the contract that backers enter into in crowdsourcing schemes vary, he explains:

"It varies from site to site and from one project to another. In my recent article on crowdfunding in the Columbia Business Law Review, I identify five different types of crowdfunding: In the pure donation model of crowdfunding, donors get nothing in return for their contribution. In the pre-purchase model of crowdfunding, such as the recent Pebble Smartwatch offer that has been in the news, in return for their contribution, people receive the product the company is making. In the rewards model of crowdfunding, people who contribute receive non-financial rewards. For example, if the entrepreneur is funding a movie, people who contribute above a certain amount might get their names in the credits. In the lending model of crowdfunding, people are promised their money back with interest. In the equity model of crowdfunding, people are promised a share of the profits or returns of the business."

WITH KICKSTARTER IT'S ALWAYS BUYER BEWARE

Kickstarter fits into both the pre-purchase and rewards models. This means if pledging users offer money to a project, they are not legally owed a final product in return; rather, in accordance with Kickstarter's rules they are simply promised a separate reward for their pledge. Backers have not entered into an investment contract by donating toward a project, and because contributors are offered no financial return of any kind the legal implications of an investment contract are non-existent, says Bradford.

"Contributors on reward or pre-purchase sites are offered no financial return of any kind," he writes in the Columbia Business Law Review. "They are promised only a product or service — a consumption item. Therefore, no investment contract is being offered. And, because investors on reward or pre-purchase sites are not offered stock, notes, or anything else that falls within the definition of security, federal securities law does not apply."

The result is a crowdfunding model that offers backers no entitlement to products they've supported. Kickstarter officials contend that the company is simply a venue that provides the marketplace, and while the cost of a successful project is shared widely, users will not receive company protection for the risk of loss using the platform. Kickstarter is a buyer beware market, and as the backer's rights are limited to its Terms of Use, the system in its current form relies on the collective force of the community to keep its individuals safe.

If you'd like to read the full article the link is http://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/6/27 ... hey-pledge

So, to recap:

1. Kickstarter fits into both the pre-purchase and rewards models. This means if pledging users offer money to a project, they are not legally owed a final product in return; rather, in accordance with Kickstarter's rules [not U.S. law] they are simply promised a separate reward for their pledge.

2. Backers have not entered into an investment contract by donating toward a project, and because contributors are offered no financial return of any kind the legal implications of an investment contract are non-existent. Contributors on reward or pre-purchase sites are offered no financial return of any kind. They are promised only a product or service — a consumption item. Therefore, no investment contract is being offered.

3. Because investors on reward or pre-purchase sites are not offered stock, notes, or anything else that falls within the definition of security, federal securities law does not apply.

Then again, laws are always changing and this article is almost two years old, so maybe I missed something?

If anyone knows of more current information, please post both the information and a link to that information, that way we can all be in agreement instead of... disagreeing.

[Jorel]

Thanks for shedding light on that current doomsday scenario.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually you should go check the law, this is cut and dry, i'm a Business Lawyer [...]

Apparently not a very good one, for the reasons Involved Observer outlined above.

Of course, that's assuming you really are a lawyer... and for someone claiming to specialize in business law not to be familiar with basic concepts like shrink and lost time raises some very awkward questions. But I am just a mere small business owner, who dabbles in intellectual property law as a result of his chosen vocation...

Though, I must admit, it appears the backers have even less in the way of rights than even I'd thought... you don't even enjoy the status of an unsecured creditor, you're donors. The best that you could honestly expect from the courts if you went into it with actual proof that the money was being misspent (instead of, y'know, conspiracy theories) would be token financial restitution.

Thanks for shedding light on that current doomsday scenario.

Oh come now, it's not as bad as all that... Kevin's not the kind of mustache-twirling villainous cad some suspect him to be. I'm sure he'll get the game kicked out the door eventually. It won't be anything like top shelf quality, and it being late is already a foregone conclusion, but he'll get you what they promised to in the Kickstarter.

(I just don't think the game will have a future beyond that initial release.)

[Jorel]

It is exactly that...every day this guy has a new chicken little sky is falling issue that is gonna kill this whole campaign. These doomsday scenarios are getting very old and no one will care what he says...even if it is right.

[Seto Kaiba]

It is exactly that...every day this guy has a new chicken little sky is falling issue that is gonna kill this whole campaign. These doomsday scenarios are getting very old and no one will care what he says...even if it is right.

*shrug* Well, some folks are naturally going to panic if they threw hundreds or thousands of dollars at the bloody Kickstarter without realizing that success was NOT guaranteed. Of course, even I would worry a bit in light of the revelation that Kickstarter backers have almost no legal protections.

To a certain degree, I can understand and empathize with their disquiet over the way this has turned out. What I can't do is sympathize with them, because there were enough warning signs around this project to carpet Brazil and any investor should understand that failure is ALWAYS an option before investing.

The "Chicken Little" panics and alarmist conspiracy theories aren't helping matters... the game's prospects were dodgy before we got all this preemptive bad press. Now, I don't even have a word to do this messy situation justice. I don't doubt that they'll get something out there, but telling everyone and their dog the game is horrible and ruined is not going to give it any staying power.

[Jorel]

Exactly. They aren't doing any good only harm.

[Seto Kaiba]

Exactly. They aren't doing any good only harm.

One could even argue that they're hurting their own cause... if they want Palladium and/or Ninja Division's reps to listen to their grievances, the best way to do it is to calmly and concisely state your case. Going borderline hysterical with half-baked conspiracy theories and vague threats of impossible legal action isn't going to make them inclined to take you seriously.

After all, Kevin isn't a Captain Planet villain.

[Jorel]

They sure do act like he is though....

[Asterios]

Oh lordy let me try to explain this shall I, yes in most cases kickstarter backers are without recourse, hell they are not even protected by the Jobs act bill, in most cases yes Kickstarter backers are screwed, but that is not to say they are without recourse, there are always options available to them.

option 1: Did Palladium pay taxs on the money they brought in? several kickstarters getting nailed over this little tidbit, since they are not "selling" product they are not collecting sales tax, but it is considered income, so they are taxed on it, at a very high rate indeed.

option 2: now heres where it gets a little fuzzy, if I gave money to a friend for a business plan, do I do have the right to find out where the money went to? yes, will it **** my friend off? yes. same with a corporation I gave money to a company with a promise of product on or around a certain date, that date came and went and nothing, except others who did not give money and were not promised something, did get a chance to get something.

People have to remember that if the laws were the way you say they were, then you would be very screwed, since it would be a fraudsters paradise, and while the laws regarding kickstarters are very few and far between there are some laws there, and more to come, in fact right now a law going thru congress which would effect this form of crowdsourcing.

As to which Writ I will execute when I do if I do, is for me to know.

Furthermore do not expect a cursory glance of the internet to give you all the answers, laws are still done up on books and will always be done up on books, not too mention there are the cases that have occurred and so on.

as it goes people claim i'm a doomsayer and i'm the one who is going to destroy everything with my doomsaying, fine, I won't speak, this is my last post here in fact will not come back to this site since I find it too hate filled and to alarming.

[Scott Gibbons]

Oh lordy let me try to explain this shall I, yes in most cases kickstarter backers are without recourse, hell they are not even protected by the Jobs act bill, in most cases yes Kickstarter backers are screwed, but that is not to say they are without recourse, there are always options available to them.

option 1: Did Palladium pay taxs on the money they brought in? several kickstarters getting nailed over this little tidbit, since they are not "selling" product they are not collecting sales tax, but it is considered income, so they are taxed on it, at a very high rate indeed.

option 2: now heres where it gets a little fuzzy, if I gave money to a friend for a business plan, do I do have the right to find out where the money went to? yes, will it **** my friend off? yes. same with a corporation I gave money to a company with a promise of product on or around a certain date, that date came and went and nothing, except others who did not give money and were not promised something, did get a chance to get something.

People have to remember that if the laws were the way you say they were, then you would be very screwed, since it would be a fraudsters paradise, and while the laws regarding kickstarters are very few and far between there are some laws there, and more to come, in fact right now a law going thru congress which would effect this form of crowdsourcing.

As to which Writ I will execute when I do if I do, is for me to know.

Furthermore do not expect a cursory glance of the internet to give you all the answers, laws are still done up on books and will always be done up on books, not too mention there are the cases that have occurred and so on.

as it goes people claim i'm a doomsayer and i'm the one who is going to destroy everything with my doomsaying, fine, I won't speak, this is my last post here in fact will not come back to this site since I find it too hate filled and to alarming.

Ok, I can accept that some law or legal precedent is not up on the internet - so please cite your source here so that I can go to the library and look it up, or write to Congress, or look it up in a state database, etc. Give us something more than your unsubstantiated word...

[Seto Kaiba]

They sure do act like he is though....

If I were Kevin, I'd show up to the next convention booth dressed like Snidely Whiplash just to mess with them.

option 2: now heres where it gets a little fuzzy, if I gave money to a friend for a business plan, do I do have the right to find out where the money went to? [...]

Assuming you're giving money to a friend, that makes you (informally) an investor or a creditor... if you've any expectation of seeing that money paid back. On the Kickstarter, you lot are DONORS, which doesn't entitle you to disclosure of where and how the money is actually being spent.

(This is the reason that there's been a sharp uptick in earmarked donations to charities... because there's otherwise no way to know how the money is being spent.)

Furthermore do not expect a cursory glance of the internet to give you all the answers, laws are still done up on books and will always be done up on books, not too mention there are the cases that have occurred and so on.

You do realize that most, if not all, states and the federal government have laws on the books set up as searchable databases, right? That was a thing even back when I was in high school. After the delay for filing, things like court rulings and judicial opinions are also available online for free in most states.

Just for your benefit, here's a searchable database of the US Code.

as it goes people claim i'm a doomsayer and i'm the one who is going to destroy everything with my doomsaying, fine, I won't speak, this is my last post here in fact will not come back to this site since I find it too hate filled and to alarming.

Huh... I wasn't aware that subjecting another person's unfounded claims to cursory fact-checking was considered alarming or hateful. The more you know...

[bielmic]

Huh... I wasn't aware that subjecting another person's unfounded claims to cursory fact-checking was considered alarming or hateful. The more you know...

You've been on the site long enough to know that doing the above cursory fact checking on murmurs and press releases ends up getting threads closed and red warnings sent out. The precedent has long been set on calling that "hate".

[Jorel]

Actually fact checking and posting of found facts isn't what gets threads closed. That is a crazy thought. Fact Checking does not equate hate.

[bielmic]

It does however create a butterfly effect due to reactions from those not interested in seeing the facts checked and is the precipitating event in getting threads closed.

[Scott Gibbons]

Considering that this thread has already once been closed, edited by the mods, then re-opened, I would not have posted the fact-checking if I thought it would get the thread closed again. But you do have a point about people's reactions, bielmic. Hopefully this one won't be a precipitating event...

Thank you, bielmic, Jorel, Seto Kaiba, and everyone else for your posts. I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and would like to see more.

[Seto Kaiba]

You've been on the site long enough to know that doing the above cursory fact checking on murmurs and press releases ends up getting threads closed and red warnings sent out. The precedent has long been set on calling that "hate".

's far as I can see, it's not really the fact checking on murmurs and press releases that does that, it's the unwise tendency of some to... how can I put this politely... "confront" the powers that be over it in a less than civil fashion.

Thank you, bielmic, Jorel, Seto Kaiba, and everyone else for your posts. I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and would like to see more.

Enjoy some cautious optimism... there have been delays, and the quality might not be what most folks have hoped for, but I'm a pessimist and I'd cheerfully bet cash money that Palladium WILL deliver the goods that the backers paid for. Whether the backers will actually LIKE it... that's another matter. At the very least, there's more than reasonable doubt regarding claims that it's "all Palladium's fault".

(Besides, if they DON'T deliver, Harmony Gold will have their nuts on a hibachi for it and it'd probably cost Palladium the license.)

[Scott Gibbons]

It is possible to think that work is done only to find out later that it is not.

Years ago I worked for a small business (toy distributor whose main product was multi-shot rubber band guns). The owner decided he wanted to have his own exclusive line of guns and contracted with another small business to do the design work and manufacturing. The contract said they would work up a design per our request and send it to us, we'd let them know what changes to the design we wanted, and they'd redo the design then get our approval before starting manufacturing. So we get the first bunch of designs, make our corrections and send them back, they change the design and get our approval and start manufacturing. We're excited and start telling our customers about the new guns and when they can start ordering them. Then we get the first shipment of our new guns - and they are all the first, unapproved designs. Someone at our manufacturer had screwed up and sent the wrong files out to the floor. So we missed our deadline and had egg on our faces not because of incompetence or laziness, but because of simple human error.

[Jorel]

if they had to change the layout for all the pieces they may have had to get more approvals.

[NMI]

Thread locked for review.