ICv2: More 'Robotech RPG Tactics' Delays

[Steve Dubya]

From here:

More 'Robotech RPG Tactics' Delays
Published: 05/05/2014 04:46pm

Palladium Books has delayed the release date for Robotech RPG Tactics another month, with the highly anticipated miniatures game now projected for "an end of July or August ship date." Final "official" SKU titles on the first six expansion packs have also been released.

The last update in January projected a June release (see "'Robotech RPG Tactics' Pushed Back Again"), with Palladium pointing an exasperated finger at partner Ninja Division. "Honestly, even we don’t fully understand why manufacturing has been delayed for so long. Much of it has been completely out of our hands," they said in a new trade solicitation. "Like you, we assume they are doing everything in their power to make this the best product possible and to get Robotech RPG Tactics to market as quickly as possible. Apparently, there were delays and problems getting the molds broken down into sprues and done right. But we’re moving forward again, and all components are looking gorgeous."

It's a good thing that this sort of info gets to the backers first, eh?

[Steve Dubya]

I'm wondering if communicating the timelines Palladium/ND have been quoted for the various aspects of production/transportation would help assuage backers..

Something along the lines of:

• Production of plastic sprues (estimated to days/weeks from quote)
• Transportation time to dock (days)
• Cross-Pacific transportation (days/weeks)
• Estimate of clearing customs (days?)
• Transportation from CA to MI (days)

From the various updates it sounds like they already have the time booked (or floated or something) meaning that the actual company doing the production should have a decent estimate of how long it would be to create the plastic portions. I would then also hope that the overseas transportation has been similarly scheduled, and there should be a timeline that was provided for that.

Giving that info to the backers - and then being able to say, "Hey we're now at step 3!" - would go a loooooooong way in assuaging those who feel the project has been derailed.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm wondering if communicating the timelines Palladium/ND have been quoted for the various aspects of production/transportation would help assuage backers.. [...]

In all honesty, I doubt it.

Any estimates made for the production, delivery, and shipment of the finished product would just be wild guesses, and the upset backers have been conditioned to assume that any production milestones stated by Palladium will be missed by a significant margin. So, essentially, the backers would assume that those targets would be missed, and take the inevitable miss on one or more to be further indication that things have been mismanaged.

If anything, it'd probably just serve to infuriate them further.

[Steve Dubya]

At the very least, it would be a good barometer as to how the time estimates might click with the release date info as a reality check.

[Seto Kaiba]

They might be wild guesses if pulled from someone's posterior, but since many companies getting product from Chinese factories have managed to put out fairly accurate timelines that bear some resemblance to the facts on the ground (i.e. - delivery dates), that should be doable.

Any numbers they get would still be virtually meaningless as long as Ninja Division is supposedly holding up the show... we don't know how long it'll take them to put together a final deliverable, and far from being a subordinate of Palladium's in this endeavor, the seem to be keeping Kevin out of the loop (or at least that is what he's portraying it as).

Also, while many companies do have reliable manufacturing houses in China, Palladium does not have what you'd call a proven track record of picking winners when searching for business partners.

[Kryptt]

Yeah no kidding. Just look at this line from the article.

"with Palladium pointing an exasperated finger at partner Ninja Division."

[Seto Kaiba]

Again, YOU hold Palladium up to the standard of being clueless and incompetent idiots instead of the standard I propose, which is 30 year business veterans of the gaming industry...no "RPG business" is not separate enough after 30 years, it isn't that big an industry.

It's called having a realistic worldview and a relatively firm grip on the facts, Larry.

Palladium Books is not a company that has experience in the tabletop war-gaming genre. They've dabbled with miniatures in a very minor way in the past, but this is uncharted territory for them. They were never going to achieve perfection on their first go, and where the miniatures are concerned it's clear they chose to rely upon the expertise of a professional modeling studio (Ninja Division). Not being instant veterans in a part of the industry they've never explored does not equate to stupidity, Larry. 30 years as an airplane technician specializing in propeller planes doesn't mean you're an expert on jet turbines.

If Ninja Division are really the ones holding the project up, and you all expect Palladium to account for the delays, why would they not indicate the responsible party? This is why it's all but impossible to take what the upset backers say seriously... too many of them are just looking for something to be upset about.

[Forar]

We may never have a concrete delivery date. Shipping across the ocean plus potential for customs issues could have even the best laid plans skewed by weeks or more with the wrong events occurring, and be completely beyond their control.

For all my critique, I do recognize that there are some aspects they can't manage, however that is offset by knowing that in a well managed project, padding (extra time) is added to account for at least some contingencies. Being on a 3 month time line and production hasn't even started yet? Not a lot of padding.

But production itself? Presumably the factory they're working with has sufficient expertise in these things to be able to calculate out at least roughly how long a run of this size (this many molds across this many machines, etc) should take, and getting that (when it starts, how long it should be and when it actually finishes) would be very nice. Once it begins it should be calculable to a reasonable margin of error, barring massive extenuating circumstances (breaking a mold mid run or something).

[bielmic]

We may never have a concrete delivery date. Shipping across the ocean plus potential for customs issues could have even the best laid plans skewed by weeks or more with the wrong events occurring, and be completely beyond their control.

For all my critique, I do recognize that there are some aspects they can't manage, however that is offset by knowing that in a well managed project, padding (extra time) is added to account for at least some contingencies. Being on a 3 month time line and production hasn't even started yet? Not a lot of padding.

But production itself? Presumably the factory they're working with has sufficient expertise in these things to be able to calculate out at least roughly how long a run of this size (this many molds across this many machines, etc) should take, and getting that (when it starts, how long it should be and when it actually finishes) would be very nice. Once it begins it should be calculable to a reasonable margin of error, barring massive extenuating circumstances (breaking a mold mid run or something).

The ICV2 article quotes palladium as assuming alot of things rather than knowing and more importantly double checking them. I agree that it is more comforting to just assume things are peachy like in 2013 with Robotech right up until it was supposed to be on the boat for the Dec delivery date but I'm not sure if that is the best way to run a business funded with other people's money advances. They haven't yet commented on the article but NMI sent them a link and they'll get to it right after the return policy and remaining 10 questions are done.

[Forar]

No argument there, I'm simply noting that there are things they should have fairly insightful/accurate info on (a production run), and other aspects that will have nothing but scorn for PB's attempts to tie them down (shipping from China).

Once it's actually on US soil I imagine things will begin to solidify again.

[Jorel]

the newest update answers more questions, but not the remaining ones from the original 10.

nevermind...that was a link to an old update...oops. No new update.

[Seto Kaiba]

ROFLMFAO, "realistic worldview and a relatively firm grip on the facts". Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

What is the difference between my position and yours? I took the time to examine the facts, looked into the histories and competency levels of the companies involved, and reached a conclusion based upon the evidence... that, exactly as we've been told, Ninja Division is NOT Palladium's employee, they're a partner company in a joint endeavor, and that Ninja Division should bear the greater portion of the blame for their quality issues because THEY designed the miniatures.

You, on the other hand, have offered views that contradict established fact, alarmist conspiracy theories, excessive hyperbole, and a paranoid windmill crusade that would do Don Quixote proud. Is it any wonder that neither Palladium Books nor the Ninja Division partners are taking your complaints seriously? No business would.

[Seto Kaiba]

So..........what is it that you are hoping to gain with all your angry posturing? Is this some form of catharsis for you? - Just curious.

I'm wondering that myself... I have to wonder what the continual attempts at character assassination are supposed to achieve? It's not like the handling of the Robotech RPG Tactics represents any actual change in Palladium's MO. What could they possibly hope to achieve by blaming Kevin for everything that went wrong with the development, especially when this is one of the rare occasions when Palladium is not the sole party developing the product?

[Morgan Vening]

The whole thing strikes me as very infantile: "My needs for instant gratification weren't met, so I'm going to yell and scream in a most unseemly manner because that's the only solution I can think of! Take that, you fiends! A pox on you!"

It's rather sad when you come right down to it. As you said (and as is fact), Palladium is not the sole party develping the product. Why heap the blame on them in defiance of all logic and understanding of multi-business relationships? The only rationale I can think of for Larry's tantrums derive from his Id has overwhelmed his SuperEgo to the point that he's incapable of seeing past it. Whatever the case, it's sad to see someone fall into a tunnel-vision perspective of reality.

I do find it ironic that the people who have tried to go through normal channels, been rebuffed or ignored at every turn, and have voiced displeasure at it, are the ones being called infantile. Instant gratification? Larry posted his initial query 7 weeks ago. It was forwarded to the appropriate people by NMI, and by Larry through Jeffarr's link to the Helpdesk ticketing system. WRRD posted a response 6 weeks later, and while I don't doubt what he said, it's from a technically unofficial source (meaning it can be ignored/changed without issue), and is probably deserving of a more prominent placing (such as part of an Update or Murmur, or something more likely to be seen.

The assumption seems to be that when people start getting shrill, that's their first response. Larry's not the only example of someone who tried going through channels and been frustrated and disappointed by the response, or lack thereof. I've had similar experiences, as have others. It seems the only "acceptable" response to being jerked around, is to sit down, shut up, and/or go away. Yeah, that doesn't work for me. Not so long as I have money tied to the project. If they were willing to issue a refund (or someone is willing to buy me out), and I refrained and still continued to rant, then yes, that'd be infantile. But while I'm locked in, and with no other recourse due to being ignored/dismissed, and while communication from PB (or lack thereof) remains the same, you'll have to excuse the occasional shrillness. Cause it's not going away.

[Seto Kaiba]

The assumption seems to be that when people start getting shrill, that's their first response. Larry's not the only example of someone who tried going through channels and been frustrated and disappointed by the response, or lack thereof.

Not on my part, at least... my reaction to the over-the-top attempts at character assassination and the efforts to blame Palladium for production issues in work that isn't being done in-house is to appeal for the backers to act like rational human beings. The backers have many things to be justifiably upset about... but it makes no sense to try and take Palladium to task for work that they aren't responsible for, and the other issues are nothing new or special for a Palladium project and so should not honestly be cause for a great deal of alarm or distress. The most bizarre complaints stem from some backers apparently taking a fair amount of marketing doublespeak as gospel... getting bent out of shape because their assessment of the game doesn't meet a vague, impossible-to-quantify standard that exists only in their heads.

I've had similar experiences, as have others. It seems the only "acceptable" response to being jerked around, is to sit down, shut up, and/or go away. Yeah, that doesn't work for me. Not so long as I have money tied to the project.

At the risk of pointing out the flaw in the plan, while the "sit down, shut up or go away" approach doesn't achieve anything, shrieking about how Kevin is systematically feeding babies to starving mutated puppies or throwing around half-baked accusations of criminal financial misconduct and threats of legal action are going to achieve even less. The way to approach a problem like this is to remain calm, cold, and rational while you politely but firmly insist that these matters need to be publicly addressed.

The minute the backers start resorting to Larry A's approach by getting agitated and hostile, they have effectively handed Palladium Books a blank check to ignore their complaints. It's damn easy to just write off agitators like that as trolls, flamebaiters, and other disruptive community elements just trying to get a rise out of everyone. It's a heck of a lot harder to pretend someone who's being calm and rational about their grievances is being unreasonable or disruptive.

[Mike1975]

I've had similar experiences, as have others. It seems the only "acceptable" response to being jerked around, is to sit down, shut up, and/or go away. Yeah, that doesn't work for me. Not so long as I have money tied to the project.

At the risk of pointing out the flaw in the plan, while the "sit down, shut up or go away" approach doesn't achieve anything, shrieking about how Kevin is systematically feeding babies to starving mutated puppies or throwing around half-baked accusations of criminal financial misconduct and threats of legal action are going to achieve even less. The way to approach a problem like this is to remain calm, cold, and rational while you politely but firmly insist that these matters need to be publicly addressed.

The minute the backers start resorting to Larry A's approach by getting agitated and hostile, they have effectively handed Palladium Books a blank check to ignore their complaints. It's damn easy to just write off agitators like that as trolls, flamebaiters, and other disruptive community elements just trying to get a rise out of everyone. It's a heck of a lot harder to pretend someone who's being calm and rational about their grievances is being unreasonable or disruptive.

I seem to remember say the exactlsame thing more than a few times, sometimes it sinks in, sometimes it does not.

[Forar]

Regarding your money being tied up in it: if you have enough disposable income to make a significant investment in a recreational game, I'm going to guess that you're not living on skid row and going through trashcans to find your next meal. The thing I find funny about the claim that 'They've got my money!' is that anybody who was capable of investing in this is probably fairly financially secure. As a result of your money being tied up in this project, you might have to only buy a 25-inch TV instead of a 40-inch TV. A true tragedy.

This is entirely uncalled for.

Just because one has disposable income, even in significant quantities, that doesn't mean that it's somehow entirely superfluous. That contribution could've gone to a dozen other campaigns instead, and a good portion of them might've actually delivered by now. Or been used for any number of other ventures. It could just have easily represented months of savings for just such an occasion. Hopefully nobody put themselves deep in debt participating, but 'oh, if you're not dumpster diving it probably isn't that important' is such a fallacy I'm surprised someone even bothered to type it out.

Being able to contribute $X on a long term project doesn't mean that everyone is going to be comfortable with it simply vanishing into the aether indefinitely. Yes, because someone will point it out, Kickstarters (particularly ones involving lots of minis) are notorious for delays, however those delays are often months, not 1-1.5+ years. A one year project going a few months over is one thing. A 7 month project for full delivery ballooning up to 14+ months for ~1/2 delivery (2/3 of the box total or so, but only 1/3 of the actual figure types) and 19-24+ total for the remainder is something entirely else.

"Kickstarter isn't a pre-order!" someone else will surely point out. Yup, it's also not a charity. Kickstarter even notes that in the event a project fails, it is expected that the creator will refund the backers their contributions, meaning that money isn't expected to be a write off even in the worst case scenario. Not to mention the recent court case to that end. Edit: Note: I am aware that this has not literally "failed", in the sense that (slow) progress continues and PB remains in contact with the backers.

Just because most of the backers aren't at that point yet doesn't mean it's unreasonable to look at the flat out terrible communications (recently improving, but too little too late for some), backsliding dates and disbelief that they'll deliver remotely in the current time frame and decide that it's time to get out. I and many others clearly don't think it has failed, but the various failures have become legion.

[Jorel]

I have standard def TVs. old ones. I cannot afford any new TVs. Yet when I had a bit of disposable income a year ago I spent it on RRT. I'm not living on the street but I definitely do not have superfluous amounts of money to have tied up. I did plan on selling some to recoup cost, if not to a local than online. If I end up having wasted the money because the game ends up being too hard to get others in on I will be pissed as that was not how it was initially sold as even though I know PBs history. Even though people know they have horrid business practices I can still find people to play a game of Rifts because the game sells itself even if the company can't do it well.