Unrest Over New Update for Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't find anywhere that Ninja Division is a "partner" on the Kickstarter page....in fact right up top it says: "by Palladium Books".

Does Kickstarter even allow more than one company to be listed as managing the project?

The comments offered so far, particularly with respect to the delays, do not bear out your argument the staff at Ninja Division are working for Palladium. Everything we've been told indicates that they are working with Palladium.

[...] the responsibility for the quality of the miniatures remains with Palladium.

See, there were no concrete promises made WRT quality of the miniatures, so really... there's no way to tangibly apply responsibility for the miniatures to Palladium. All they're doing is rubber-stamping designs coming out of Ninja Division. If they're partners, then their ability to demand changes is limited, and the evidence suggests they ARE partners rather than employer and employee.

The project lead is responsible for knowing what the status of each phase of the project is at least in a generally accurate manner [...]

So, if the alleged project lead is not aware of what the status of everything is, and Kevin has very conveniently told us he isn't, that means we have two possibilities to consider. The first is that the one making the allegations doesn't have a clue, and because this is a joint development the "project lead" is not actually overseeing everything... which is, of course, what appears to be the case given the actual evidence. The other explanation is that the alleged "project lead" is negligent in the extreme, and isn't actually paying any attention to the behavior of a key subordinate... which is convenient for those who just want an excuse to act like Kevin kicks puppies, but has only a tangential relationship with the facts.

[Morgan Vening]

[...] the responsibility for the quality of the miniatures remains with Palladium.

See, there were no concrete promises made WRT quality of the miniatures, so really... there's no way to tangibly apply responsibility for the miniatures to Palladium. All they're doing is rubber-stamping designs coming out of Ninja Division. If they're partners, then their ability to demand changes is limited, and the evidence suggests they ARE partners rather than employer and employee.

Except for a couple of things, you're completely right.

1) There may not be concrete promises WRT quality, but there were a crapload of implied ones. And even that's irrelevant when Kevin and Co have stated many times they're happy/ecstatic/over-the-moon at the quality of what's been shown so far. You don't need to search much to see unconditional praise coming out of a PB representative's statements.

2) Tangibly responsible. It's been established, through their own comments, that the progression is Ninja develop, pass it on to PB, PB either accept what's there, and pass it on up to HG, or require changes, sending it back down to ND. Harmony Gold then get final say. Again, it's been established that nothing gets done without PB having the ability to jump in.

3) Rubber stamping designs. Yeah, that's not happening either. There are quite a few updates where a PB representative explicitly states that they've sent back model X, Y or Z for revision. That may change as the GenCon-Or-Bust deadline approaches, but even a cursory check shows that they haven't been rubberstamping much, if anything.

4) That Ninja Division have distanced themselves, or been punted to the side, or thrown under a bus, indicates that they're no longer partners, and again, the wording on previous updates and comments indicates they were partners only in a subordinate role. While I don't recall any definitive proof of this, there's more circumstantial evidence of it, than any that they were "equal partners".

So, except for those four things, everything you said is absolutely spot on.

[Seto Kaiba]

1) There may not be concrete promises WRT quality, but there were a crapload of implied ones.

Unfortunately, implicit promises made using vague weaselwords aren't enforceable because there isn't an objective standard for measuring mouthwatering-ness, world class-ness, etc. Mind you, the backers are well within their rights to be upset if they feel the game is not up to a market-competitive standard, but without Palladium having broken some kind of concrete and objective promise...

And even that's irrelevant when Kevin and Co have stated many times they're happy/ecstatic/over-the-moon at the quality of what's been shown so far. You don't need to search much to see unconditional praise coming out of a PB representative's statements.

Well, yeah... it's no secret that these guys aren't tabletop war gamers, and they do tend to have a very high opinion of things they've worked on, even if their customers don't. I'm not surprised they're actually proud of themselves for getting this far, since it is a big step for them even if that step is a faltering and uncoordinated mess like a drunk walking the deck of a ship in heavy seas, but if Ninja Division were to go and say THEY'RE proud of the quality of the material... well, I'd be asking if they'd suffered a recent blow to the head, and I know I'm not the only one who'd ask.

2) Tangibly responsible. It's been established, through their own comments, that the progression is Ninja develop, pass it on to PB, PB either accept what's there, and pass it on up to HG, or require changes, sending it back down to ND. Harmony Gold then get final say.

True, but it's pretty thoroughly established that Palladium are complete amateurs in the field of tabletop war games. I think we can say with a degree of certainty that they don't have the expertise tell a mini that's mediocre with a problematic layout from an expertly designed mini. Ultimately it's their name on it and they'll take a fall when the game tanks, but it's Ninja Division whose face should be burning in shame for having approved sub-standard miniatures for release.

4) That Ninja Division have distanced themselves, or been punted to the side, or thrown under a bus, indicates that they're no longer partners, and again, the wording on previous updates and comments indicates they were partners only in a subordinate role.

Yet... this doesn't seem to jive with what we're being told as recently as a few days ago, that Palladium's staff is politely baffled by the (mistaken) belief that Ninja Division is somehow not involved anymore in the game's development. Just because Ninja Division is letting Palladium do the talking (about the weather, a selection of the local wildlife, etc.) doesn't mean they're not involved. They may be splitting their efforts across multiple projects... they do have their own game lines to support, after all, while Palladium doesn't do a heck of a lot these days.

The idea that Ninja Division was a subordinate doesn't line up, as I've pointed out, with Kevin's failure to keep tabs on what they're even doing. I've heard plenty of folks accuse Kevin of being a micromanager, and if that's true I can't believe he'd take a hands off approach on a project this big unless he wasn't in complete control to begin with.

[Kryptt]

All arguing aside PB still has to deal with this.

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/pal ... down-clock

[bielmic]

I don't find anywhere that Ninja Division is a "partner" on the Kickstarter page....in fact right up top it says: "by Palladium Books". The only comment that might point to that fact is near the bottom in the infamous "Risks" section that has been found to be less that factual..." In order to facilitate the timely delivery of Robotech® RPG Tactics™, Palladium Books and Ninja Division have brought in a host of new talent to work on the project.", which on the Palladium side isn't factual and I cannot comment on the ND side, but I rather doubt that any "hosts" were hired over there either. Since we are really looking at two people tops to handle the project, it didn't need any "host" hired by anyone.

Now, in January in the Updates there was some mention of ND sharing the cost of two mailings with PB, but that's also where the "it's all ND's fault" defense of Palladium began. The problem you are having comes from ignoring the fact that even if the entire miniature quality issue can be laid directly at the feet of ND, the responsibility for the quality of the miniatures remains with Palladium.

Now, it will come out sooner or later who said what about different aspects of the project and who took what actions, but give the history and current actions, the primary listed on the Kickstarter remains 100% responsible for what happens. Seriously, how hard is this to comprehend? The Captain is responsible for everything that happens on his ship. The project lead is responsible for knowing what the status of each phase of the project is at least in a generally accurate manner ("The molds will be cut next week" is acceptable if it happens, but "The molds will be cut a week from Tuesday after lunch" represents too much detail for a generally accurate answer.). X has to be called before we can even guess at an answer and, you know, X is really hard to get hold of because they are busy equals failure.

To be honest, the wording is a mixed bag. The relationship is flat out described as a partnership

http://geek-news.mtv.com/2013/04/25/kev ... 364199242&

but the wording indicates a subordinate "junior" partnernship for ND despite the responsibilities by using terms like "we gave them" and as well as "When a Ninja Division sculpt comes to Palladium for review, we rake it over the coals to make sure it is accurate and true to Robotech. That means Palladium creating and sending back notes, drawings, diagrams, references, etc., to Ninja Division to get it all right. "

Equal partners don't unilaterally review and send stuff back to be changed so Palladium is clearly in charge despite the terms.

[Seto Kaiba]

All arguing aside PB still has to deal with this.

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/pal ... down-clock

Perhaps I'm missing something... "Mutually assured destruction pact"?

[Kryptt]

Seto in fairness if Kevin is a micromanager as others have attested to there's no way he can with ND since there out of state. Now if PB embraced modern technology and didn't think PDFs were a fad like the internet then I can see him micromanaging thru face to face chats using another fad called a computer.

[Kryptt]

All arguing aside PB still has to deal with this.

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/pal ... down-clock

Perhaps I'm missing something... "Mutually assured destruction pact"?

It's in reference to what some have dubbed PB's gencon suicide pact since Wayne emphatically stated that RRT will be available at GC, but if they don't make it... Well some think it will be the end for PB and or RRT. I'm sure if PB doesn't have RRT available at GC PB will survive. Just not there rep wit the rest of the gaming community.

[rosco60559]

I'm sure by now you all heard of the new delay from a 3rd party source saying rrt will be late with wave 1 by saying July/august. So where the hell is pb's update? The backers should be hearing from the one's running the show, not other backers who stumble across a news article. I had no idea we the backers came up with all this cash to be blown off, this news should have been told to us first.

[Kryptt]

If Palladium was a defence contractor...

Palladium: We will have our new plane ready in just two years!

27 years later...

Palladium: Our new plane is just days away from being launched, and we are excited!

That is exactly what went down with rrt! You hit the nail on the head with that. Thank you sir I reposted this on the ks page.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's in reference to what some have dubbed PB's gencon suicide pact since Wayne emphatically stated that RRT will be available at GC, but if they don't make it... Well some think it will be the end for PB and or RRT.

Strikes me as a little bit overdramatic... s'long as things don't go so badly that they're forced to issue a general refund, I think Palladium will survive the backlash. Can't pretend I think it'll really do much harm where RRT's future prospects are concerned either. That game's got the odds so thoroughly stacked against it that it's amazing it made it this far.

Besides, if they DO have RRT available at GenCon before the backers get theirs, it'll cause a real uproar.

[Shotgun Jolly]

This whole experience has been a train wreck. Which is sad, as I know a lot of people who were really looking forward to this project.

Is anyone from PB even reading the comments on the kickstarter page? Its seems pretty bleak and its almost like PB is choosing to ignore the comments and the cries for more support and info.

Unless, things take a dramatic turn for the better soon, this project is going to be a one trick pony. Well, that's my fear anyways.

[Jorel]

they claim to be incapable of reading the KS comments

[Kryptt]

That and we don't give praise for lackluster product.

[Seto Kaiba]

Is anyone from PB even reading the comments on the kickstarter page? Its seems pretty bleak and its almost like PB is choosing to ignore the comments and the cries for more support and info.

Probably because a fair few of 'em are like this thread... shrieking unfounded accusations of massive fiscal misconduct and/or Kevin's preference for toddler tartare.

Unless, things take a dramatic turn for the better soon, this project is going to be a one trick pony. Well, that's my fear anyways.

It was ALWAYS a one-trick pony. That's why they started with Macross... they wanted it to actually sell.

I think that's exactly what is going to happen.

*gets popcorn ready*

Now is the winter of their discontent... made painfully ironic by its occurrence in summer.

@Kryptt - I'm addressing the Seto's desperate attempts to twist this issue into anything but Palladium's fault....err well, it is kinda sorta Palladium's fault, but since they are such likable, ignorant, incompentent idjits (according to Seto), they have to be forgiven and everything blamed on the evil Ninja Division.

That's a very interesting distortion of what I've said... which is an amusing, but ultimately ineffective way to distract people from noticing your efforts to establish Kevin as being a charter member of the Guild of Calamitous Intent having little foundation in objective reality.

All I've said, and all I will continue to say, is that the people who are whining about how EVERYTHING here is all Kevin's fault are speaking from ignorance... and that blame should be assigned to the parties who are doing the substandard work. Palladium, for a schedule that could only work in a universe of nonlinear time and public relations that seem to be more geared towards making guys like you think he's Snidley Whiplash than beating down wild and unfounded rumors like Ninja Division not being involved anymore, and the Ninja Division "team-up" for being tabletop war-gaming industry professionals who screwed the pooch so hard it merits attention from the ASPCA despite being just a figure of speech.

Assign blame to he who hath done the wrong... Kevin and co. let the schedule slip all over hell's half-acre and Ninja Division did a sub-par job with the models.

[Morgan Vening]

Assign blame to he who hath done the wrong... Kevin and co. let the schedule slip all over hell's half-acre and Ninja Division did a sub-par job with the models.

And the latter part might be purely Ninja Division's fault. Or it might be exactly what Palladium wanted. The praise heaped on these, including the horrible horrible Spartan seems to indicate (but obviously doesn't prove one way or the other) that they're exactly what Palladium wanted and/or expected. We don't know what they were like in their initial incarnation (as we've only seen snippets of the development). I'm all for blaming ND for the lack of quality if they're at fault, but I can't blame them if they're only following instructions.

The Regults and Arty Pods were implied to be made earlier in the process. As PB announced more and more that they were editing and sending back for correction, the quality of the shown product got worse. Now that could just be coincidence, or any number of other reasons. But the lack of transparency through the development process, and hearing only PB's perspective (and their trustworthiness is suspect), and I wouldn't be so quick to judge. That ND seem reticent to communicate at all on the project other than parrot PB talking points, muddies the waters.

I may not like the Chibi style of miniatures, but it's clear that ND are capable of making at least acceptable quality miniatures. So, whether it was design issues, management issues, time issues, process issues, or issues with regard the medium (ABS), there's several ways the quality isn't ND's fault. That's not to say it's automatically PB's fault either. But they did sign off on these, and THAT is their fault. Send it back. Get it done right. That's what they've said for six months now. So, unless PB are unhappy with the results, and sending it back, that's on them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Or it might be exactly what Palladium wanted. The praise heaped on these, including the horrible horrible Spartan seems to indicate (but obviously doesn't prove one way or the other) that they're exactly what Palladium wanted and/or expected.

While we cannot discount the possibility that they're actually trying to do a bad job, I find it a little more plausible that Palladium's effusive praise for the rather mediocre miniatures Ninja Division turned out was their usual "This new product is the awesome-est thing ever!" hype, maybe leavened with a little bit of inexperience/ignorance regarding the miniatures industry.

I'm all for blaming ND for the lack of quality if they're at fault, but I can't blame them if they're only following instructions.

We're not specifically told why certain miniatures were sent back for revision, but Palladium's line about reviewing the miniatures suggests their review was more to make sure the miniatures were on-model to Macross mechanical designs than anything. Whether they're actually reviewing them for quality is unclear at best, and may be futile even if they are since the chop job doesn't seem to have rung alarm bells there the way it has with any experienced tabletop gamer. They may not have the knowledge to spot some of these decisions as bad ones.

Remember, while Palladium may (eventually) sign off on these for mass production... Ninja Division had to sign off on them first before Palladium ever saw them, and unlike Palladium they have to KNOW they did a bad job.

[Kryptt]

I've posted on ND FB page letting them know how badly their RRT models are. All it got me was blocked. Now I can't post on their page or make comments when they release an update.

[Morgan Vening]

Or it might be exactly what Palladium wanted. The praise heaped on these, including the horrible horrible Spartan seems to indicate (but obviously doesn't prove one way or the other) that they're exactly what Palladium wanted and/or expected.

While we cannot discount the possibility that they're actually trying to do a bad job, I find it a little more plausible that Palladium's effusive praise for the rather mediocre miniatures Ninja Division turned out was their usual "This new product is the awesome-est thing ever!" hype, maybe leavened with a little bit of inexperience/ignorance regarding the miniatures industry.

I wasn't trying to say ND was intentionally doing a bad job. But I've worked for enough managers in the past to know that when they aren't able to articulate what they actually want, and keep "improving" it, the quality gets worse. It's like Homer's Bubble Car. He had an idea, the engineers produced said idea, then he took a passable design and turned it into a monstrosity. And he was happy with it, even though the engineers cringed.

Not saying that is what happened here. But given what we've seen/heard, I wouldn't rule it out, and load all the blame on ND.

I'm all for blaming ND for the lack of quality if they're at fault, but I can't blame them if they're only following instructions.

We're not specifically told why certain miniatures were sent back for revision, but Palladium's line about reviewing the miniatures suggests their review was more to make sure the miniatures were on-model to Macross mechanical designs than anything. Whether they're actually reviewing them for quality is unclear at best, and may be futile even if they are since the chop job doesn't seem to have rung alarm bells there the way it has with any experienced tabletop gamer. They may not have the knowledge to spot some of these decisions as bad ones.

Remember, while Palladium may (eventually) sign off on these for mass production... Ninja Division had to sign off on them first before Palladium ever saw them, and unlike Palladium they have to KNOW they did a bad job.

But they also don't seem to have the discretion to say "No, those are good, changing them in the way you describe would be a mistake.". They have to accede to the will of PB (and PB have to accede to the will of HG).

I'm not saying ND don't potentially share in the fault for the miniature quality. I'm saying it's not clear, and thought you putting the blame solely on them for that, seemed a bit much. Similarly, I accept the possibility that PB aren't completely to blame for the delays (though it seems clear they are for the mismanaged communications). But there's a definite distinction between blame and responsibility. PB may not be to blame for every hiccup, misstep and complete debacle that's come down the pipe. But as project lead, they ARE responsible for them. It's a harsh fact, but them's the breaks when it's your name on the door.

[Jorel]

I've posted on ND FB page letting them know how badly their RRT models are. All it got me was blocked. Now I can't post on their page or make comments when they release an update.

Now you know why I keep speaking my mind to more open forums like the KS pages or the unofficial pages.

[Kryptt]

Guess they couldn't take the heat.lol

[Mike1975]

I think that the problem is greater that PB. ND, if they truly know how to make minis, and they truly did not agree with what PB was doing, should have backed out of the entire thing early on. The fact that they as experts allowed PB to influence the seams and near copying of older model kits and did not do more is and should be a black mark on them. That being said, PB as the lead on this should have been willing to listen to ND in order to make the right decisions. As usual though all we have are assumption and conjecture since we unfortunately do not know the true story behind things.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've posted on ND FB page letting them know how badly their RRT models are. All it got me was blocked. Now I can't post on their page or make comments when they release an update.

Er... as one who has resolved to dig his heels in and resist the hell out of Facebook's infiltration of every aspect of the net, I obviously can't see your comments. Were you at least diplomatic about it? It's one thing to say "Hey guys, there are serious issues here that need to be corrected" and quite another to go and say "Lads, you screwed up massively, what the hell?".

But they also don't seem to have the discretion to say "No, those are good, changing them in the way you describe would be a mistake.".

Now, that raises the question... "Does Palladium's staff have the necessary experience and/or the skill set to recognize a badly designed miniature for tabletop gaming when they see one?". If they're heaping that effusive praise upon these sub-par models, that would seem to indicate they don't believe there's a major problem with these designs. As the bulk of their experience is with single-piece castings and the issues in RRT are mostly related to multi-part assembly...

[yanko128]

... Now, that raises the question... "Does Palladium's staff have the necessary experience and/or the skill set to recognize a badly designed miniature for tabletop gaming when they see one?". If they're heaping that effusive praise upon these sub-par models, that would seem to indicate they don't believe there's a major problem with these designs. As the bulk of their experience is with single-piece castings and the issues in RRT are mostly related to multi-part assembly...

I would have expected for a project lead on such a project to do some research of these type of miniatures. And when they knew that they would get over a million dollars to do this project, I would expect them to do even more research, and probably hire someone who is an expert in these matters to look at the designs (and probably does other things related to this project).

I believe that PB and ND could have done this with little problems is KS funded around its goal, $70-100k range. But it didn't. Any other company serious about a project this large would have adapted, or at least tried to. But I know BP better than expect them to change.

[Jorel]

I think a lot of us feel that way. Shame they couldn't adapt.

[Seto Kaiba]

I would have expected for a project lead on such a project to do some research of these type of miniatures. And when they knew that they would get over a million dollars to do this project, I would expect them to do even more research, and probably hire someone who is an expert in these matters to look at the designs (and probably does other things related to this project).

We don't know that they did... or that they didn't. Honestly though, as Palladium's management deliberately sought out and partnered with a professional miniatures studio for RRT's development, they probably felt the issue was best left to the experts. Unfortunately, it would seem they chose the wrong experts to trust... as Ninja Division just isn't putting out the high-quality material they hoped for.

[yanko128]

What I meant was that they should have hired someone to work directly for PB to deal with this project. That person would be in charge of all (or most) things RRT, including backer updates/contacts, and hopefully that person would also have experience with miniature wargaming hobby. Of course even is someone like that was hired, Kevin would still have to take his advice/criticism to heart, which I do not see happening. This magical person I am talking about would be a direct employee of PB, and not working in partnership like ND is.

All of the above is of course a nice "should have, 98% mouthwatering dreams", with no resemblance to reality. And no, I would not have expected that if the project was just barely funded. But once it hit $500k mark, hiring additional people to handle this monster just seems like something necessary. After all, the more you promise, the longer it is going to take. You may hire more people to reduce that extra time, or you can push back the deadline, or you can do neither and lower the quality of the product. With good communications the first two options are non-issues. Third option is only an issue (IMO) if the project is very successful (like $1.4mil over the asking amount, just to throw a number out there).

In the project's defense, the quality of the minis may have always been intended to be what we are seeing. But when the KS was going on we were not shown any actual minis (even prototypes or greens, nothing as far as I can tell). Considering the project was 45 days from going into production, I would have expected for them to show us what they meant by "mouthwatering". But if what we are seeing right now is what Kevin thinks is "mouthwatering", that explains a lot about the state of this KS, and PB in general.

[Jorel]

they did hire somebody, but I don't think he fills all those rolls.

[Seto Kaiba]

What I meant was that they should have hired someone to work directly for PB to deal with this project.

Like I've said every time this has been brought up, they should've hired someone to manage their projects and keep them ALL on track, not just RRT. The problem with hiring someone just to manage RRT is that a person with the right skills and experience to do the job right would be savvy enough to notice that RRT's got very little chance of achieving lasting success. That same sort of situation is why the Robotech staff at Harmony Gold is the way it is... they had to settle for long-time fans with skill sets in the ballpark with what they actually needed, because the franchise's track record made it unattractive to people who had the qualifications they needed.

Considering the project was 45 days from going into production, I would have expected for them to show us what they meant by "mouthwatering". But if what we are seeing right now is what Kevin thinks is "mouthwatering", that explains a lot about the state of this KS, and PB in general.

Dunno what to tell ya there... except that things like "world class" and "mouthwatering" are meaningless marketing weasel-words. One would hope that they would've had the sense to bring something of truly spectacular quality of they were going to talk such a big game, but they do have a history of getting a little overexcited about the quality of their work and making it sound much better than the final product actually is. That much is entirely on Palladium.

[glitterboy2098]

sadly i don't think people today will get that joke..

[13eowulf]

sadly i don't think people today will get that joke..

Yeah, it's a outdated reference. Shouldn't be, but a lot of people are blissfully ignorant of history.

Honestly though, which is worse? Repeating history due to blissful ignorance, or watching in horror, unable to stop it, as the majority of other repeat history due to their ignorance?

See, personally I am one of those who is aware, but will repeat it anyways.

Like this whole Kickstarter thing. I am like 90% certain that if they do another KS, like say for the next era, I will go in at the same level as I did this one.

[Jorel]

not this guy. I'm watching Untold History of the United States as told by Oliver Stone all this week.

[Seto Kaiba]

Like this whole Kickstarter thing. I am like 90% certain that if they do another KS, like say for the next era, I will go in at the same level as I did this one.

Y'know... they say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

[13eowulf]

Like this whole Kickstarter thing. I am like 90% certain that if they do another KS, like say for the next era, I will go in at the same level as I did this one.

Y'know... they say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

Who says I expect different results

But I have found life much more entertaining with a spark of insanity to lighten things up....

[Seto Kaiba]

Who says I expect different results

...
...
...

Touche, sir.