Zombies in Winter

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Fri May 09, 2014 9:54 pm

What Happens to zombies in the Winter? Do they Go Dormant in the freezing cold? They produce no heat so whats to keep them from freezing up and become immobile?

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Sat May 10, 2014 4:35 am

In temperatures at or below freezing the would freeze solid. Great way to hunt. Instead of south for the winter its north fir survival. Until those pesky ice caps melt

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Sat May 10, 2014 11:12 am

So the North has an advantage.. During Winter they could easily use the winter time to create good safe havens. Also clean out areas with ease. Makes Canada look real good.

Zenvis · Unread post by **Zenvis** » Sat May 10, 2014 11:50 am

That would be a great adventure; NORTH for the WINTER. An adventure where the players escort a party of survivors (men women and children) to a a colder climate and the dangers that would occur.

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Sat May 10, 2014 12:47 pm

Canada might be good.. Too good even.. Lots of Bandits, Crazies.. Already established safe havens that are selfish and drive people away from their territory. Retro Savages even.. Still lots of problems to deal with.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sun May 11, 2014 1:25 pm

DR zombies don't freeze is what is stopping it. Now if a GM wants to make a house rule to make them freeze (say...to match WWZ or what have you) then go for it. But in the official DR universe zombies don't freeze.

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Sun May 11, 2014 1:30 pm

How do you explain the zombies not freezing? What is it that keeps them from freezing? These are the things I would like to know.Is it PPE related?

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sun May 11, 2014 4:55 pm

We should totally merge this thread as a reply to this one: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=142620

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sun May 11, 2014 7:04 pm

Tirisilex wrote:How do you explain the zombies not freezing? What is it that keeps them from freezing? These are the things I would like to know.Is it PPE related?

The same thing that lets a zombie move dead/decaying muscles, or that lets them see with out eyes, or holds them together....Zombies work, because they work. Its not as if the premise itself was in the slightest bit scientifically rational, so expecting rationality from one tiny part, while allowing total irrationality in all the other parts.........

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Mon May 12, 2014 7:27 pm

So PPE helps them from freezing solid? Still 1.5 feet of snow would slow them down.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:31 pm

Tirisilex wrote:So PPE helps them from freezing solid? Still 1.5 feet of snow would slow them down.

True. But it would also be easy for them to hide under that snow until something alive comes in range.....win some, lose some. But it would make the Skiing skill valuable.

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Tue May 13, 2014 2:42 pm

Ok.. PPE energy creates heat to keep them from freezing. I can see some freezing going on like on the clothes. thus possibly creating ICE Zombies.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Tue May 13, 2014 3:17 pm

Tirisilex wrote:Ok.. PPE energy creates heat to keep them from freezing. I can see some freezing going on like on the clothes. thus possibly creating ICE Zombies.

Except that it doesn't create heat. Zombies don't show up on thermal optics, ergo they don't radiate heat. They just simply don't freeze either. And its not the PPE per se, its whatever supernatural element that makes the corpse a zombie, feeding on PPE is just one symptom of that, but at base, Zombies are supernatural creatures in that they do not follow natural laws.

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:46 pm

Well.. In my Campaign My reasoning is the PPE is what keeps them from freezing.. No Heat.. But some kind of Anti Freeze in the system derived from PPE.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Wed May 14, 2014 7:47 am

Perhaps like what they use in cryogenics to prevent crystalization.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Wed May 14, 2014 9:19 am

Instead of looking for a canon answer, why don't you decide how you want it to work and just house rule it.

DR zombies pretty much require house ruling to make the game fun. They're too hard to kill otherwise.

--flatline

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Thu May 15, 2014 3:14 pm

They dont explain it but in the Movie "Dead Snow" the zombies dont freeze and will hide under the snow.

Zenvis · Unread post by **Zenvis** » Thu May 15, 2014 7:12 pm

Nice!

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Thu May 15, 2014 10:20 pm

flatline wrote:DR zombies pretty much require house ruling to make the game fun. They're too hard to kill otherwise.

Not necessarily. You just really should never go for the head or neck first. The 'natural' roll requirements of hitting them are unreliable.

Since natural rolls are not required to hack off limbs with called shots, it's better to do that first. Sure, you have to surpass their AR still, but you can use bonuses. Then when it's just a torso lying there trying to squirm towards you and head-butt you, THEN you do the called shots to the neck. Heck, you could actually make it even safer by depleting the torso SDC/HP first so the zombie lies there.

Considering how much of the time head butts do more damage than punches we really need clear rules on when zombies can use them though...

I mean... I think you should either have at least 1 leg to propel yourself with, or else, 1 arm to pull yourself forward with, to be able to do a head butt with any kind of reliability.

While I suppose if a zombie happened to be lying on top of you already, it COULD head butt you... I can't see how it would get in position to do anything but head-butt your foot if it was just a torso and you'd taken off both legs and arms.

Also why would a zombie ever bite someone in this game? Always less damage than a head butt, bad tactic. Unless they're actually smart enough to think "oh, this will eventually get infected and possibly kill the guy", but in that case I don't think the zombie would get any PPE... unless possibly the person became half-living and in that case I think they lose half of their PPE.

Misfit KotLD · Unread post by **Misfit KotLD** » Fri May 16, 2014 7:13 pm

Tirisilex wrote:How do you explain the zombies not freezing? What is it that keeps them from freezing? These are the things I would like to know.Is it PPE related?

They break all manner of natural laws already. Why should freezing be different?

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Fri May 16, 2014 8:16 pm

Atleast they explain why it defies all natural laws.

whassupman03 · Unread post by **whassupman03** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:55 am

Hello...

Tirisilex wrote:Canada might be good.. Too good even.. Lots of Bandits, Crazies.. Already established safe havens that are selfish and drive people away from their territory. Retro Savages even.. Still lots of problems to deal with.

Good (Possibly too good :wink:

) idea! Another place to consider would be Alaska. I could conceive that Alaska would be America's best safe haven, due to its remoteness and climate. The state has plenty of natural resources, cities and towns for salvage and reconstruction, and even places to grow food. Not to mention that Alaskan Command, the surviving elements of the US Armed Forces in Alaska, would be a useful place to host the Soldier O.C.C. One could also conceive that it may be the only place where a substantial government presence resides. Federal government would be gone, along with most state and local governments in the United States, but Alaska may be the last US state to survive. While Alaska would need substantial industrial improvements, one could conceive a campaign where British Commando-style raids could be sent to CONUS to recover vital equipment, supplies, vehicles, and machinery to make Alaska self-sufficient, making it the center of the American war effort! But anyway those are my thoughts, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03

JimmyB · Unread post by **JimmyB** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:05 pm

It does not say anywhere that they can not be frozen. It says, they can not be killed by freezing them.
Big difference. It also sais that although the cold doesnt technically hurt them, low temps do make them slower.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:23 pm

JimmyB wrote:does not say anywhere that they can not be frozen
says, they can not be killed by freezing them
also sais that although the cold doesnt technically hurt them, low temps do make them slower.

I seem to recall something about them being able to be active at sub-zero temperatures.

I think this means that water's freezing point is not theirs, but I suppose a sub-zero point may still be able to freeze them, though I'm not sure what it is.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:57 pm

If the pieces melted and the shattering wasn't too extreme they might eventually be sewn back together, so long as the brain survived.

cornholioprime · Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:40 am

Tor wrote:
JimmyB wrote:does not say anywhere that they can not be frozen
says, they can not be killed by freezing them
also sais that although the cold doesnt technically hurt them, low temps do make them slower.

I seem to recall something about them being able to be active at sub-zero temperatures.

I think this means that water's freezing point is not theirs, but I suppose a sub-zero point may still be able to freeze them, though I'm not sure what it is.

The relevant information is in the Dead Reign Sourcebook, and it indicates that Dead Reign zombies can operate indefinitely in sub-zero temperatures, and only stand a chance of being rendered immobile if they go dormant in those sub-zero temperatures.

There is no stated lower limit whereby the zombie will freeze up as long as it is still active.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:43 pm

Neat, so basically so long as they're in active chase of something or being corralled by a cult leader they should remain active and able to move...

But if they go dormant, they can't go undormant? So basically if your zombies got frozen and went to sleep, they wouldn't decay but you'd need to manually drag them (via sled dog?) to a warm enough area for them to thaw to >0 degrees celsius for them to be able to respond to PPE sources...

Wouldn't this also mean that you could trap them in an ice box, make some distance and stay away for a few hours until they go to sleep, and then you can come inside and look at them as long as you want, so long as if you kept the door open enough heat did not enter to raise the room temperature above 0.

JimmyB · Unread post by **JimmyB** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:24 pm

An Ice Spear to the brain is still a Spear to the brain.

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:02 am

flatline wrote:Instead of looking for a canon answer, why don't you decide how you want it to work and just house rule it.

DR zombies pretty much require house ruling to make the game fun. They're too hard to kill otherwise.

--flatline

I like the setting but you are correct no fun with the RAW.
House rules make it awesome.

I did house rule that below freezing they keep moving, but really slow in most cases. 1/2 speed and lose 1 attack per melee. Makes hunting them easier but not full out slaughter.

My group was able to clean out a town of 12K Zed in a single winter. We didn't roleplay all that, we went hunting, figured out how many we could kill in 8 hours of door to door hunting, multiplied that by the other survivors (NPC) we were surviving with and came up with something like 120 days to take them all out... 100 zombies a day on average from my group and the other NPCs working as teams. We took over the Gavins Point hydroelectric dam on the Missouri river and had power, a safe haven (that place is built like a bunker) A safe place to grow food (raised rabbits and chickens on the roof and grew veggies on the roof and inside with electric lights) And the next summer we were working on making steps (terraces) in the sides of the earthen dam and an automated electric-pump powered irrigation system to grow more food. Fencing off a larger area (there already was a big area surrounded by 8 foot chain link topped with barbwire) for bigger live stock. Raiding the fish hatchery for fish and trying to stock them into both the lakes (there is a huge one made by the dam and a smaller one of seep water that slips under the earthen dam).

I grew up in the town (Yankton SD) and know the area intimately so with some google earth images to print out we had maps that I could detail what almost every major building was where resources could be found etc. We had a good thing going but then summer hit in real life and our group fell apart because, well, life happens more in the summer here in the Dakotas and people don't want to give up their weekends to play RPGs when they could be outside not freezing their posterior off.

whassupman03 · Unread post by **whassupman03** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:38 am

Hello...

Thinyser wrote:I like the setting but you are correct no fun with the RAW.
House rules make it awesome.

I did house rule that below freezing they keep moving, but really slow in most cases. 1/2 speed and lose 1 attack per melee. Makes hunting them easier but not full out slaughter.

My group was able to clean out a town of 12K Zed in a single winter. We didn't roleplay all that, we went hunting, figured out how many we could kill in 8 hours of door to door hunting, multiplied that by the other survivors (NPC) we were surviving with and came up with something like 120 days to take them all out... 100 zombies a day on average from my group and the other NPCs working as teams. We took over the Gavins Point hydroelectric dam on the Missouri river and had power, a safe haven (that place is built like a bunker) A safe place to grow food (raised rabbits and chickens on the roof and grew veggies on the roof and inside with electric lights) And the next summer we were working on making steps (terraces) in the sides of the earthen dam and an automated electric-pump powered irrigation system to grow more food. Fencing off a larger area (there already was a big area surrounded by 8 foot chain link topped with barbwire) for bigger live stock. Raiding the fish hatchery for fish and trying to stock them into both the lakes (there is a huge one made by the dam and a smaller one of seep water that slips under the earthen dam).

I grew up in the town (Yankton SD) and know the area intimately so with some google earth images to print out we had maps that I could detail what almost every major building was where resources could be found etc. We had a good thing going but then summer hit in real life and our group fell apart because, well, life happens more in the summer here in the Dakotas and people don't want to give up their weekends to play RPGs when they could be outside not freezing their posterior off.

That's quite a game plan! :-D

If you haven't visited this thread yet, please refer to "Location, Location, Location!" at http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=142420. On that thread, there was a good discussion about using your hometowns and other resources that GMs and players are personally knowledgeable about in their campaigns. Anyway, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 :mrgreen:

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:23 pm

If I wanted to invent an ice suit for zombies to prevent them from decaying, but which could warm up slightly (1 degree above freezing) if they ever went inactive, is there a way to come up with stats for this without stepping into Mr. Freeze conversion territory?

glitterboy2098 · Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:51 pm

a portable one? probably not. using real world tech (since dead reign is "10 minutes into the future" effectively) stuff to get things that cold is pretty bulky. your looking at coolant, pumps, power supply, etc. would be as big an effort, and with may of the same powersupply limit problems, as the efforts to develop real world powered armor.

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:31 pm

I've got it! A supply of Liquid Nitrogen.

Zenvis · Unread post by **Zenvis** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:40 pm

That does it! My first Dead Reign game is going to be entitle Hunt for Alaska!

CarCrasher · Unread post by **CarCrasher** » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:26 am

A liquid nitrogen gun would be fun to play with! A precision stream directed at the creeps legs would render it mostly immobile. To the arms mostly harmless. To the neck and head an easy kill. Don't think it would be very effective in crowd control but against several I believe it work nicely. If you have any questions about it I refef you to the predator 2 movie in which Gary Bussey's(sorry for the spelling if wrong) character uses something similar ineffectually against the young hunter. Perhaps a larger variant mounted to transport truck would work on a horde.

CarCrasher · Unread post by **CarCrasher** » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:42 am

Tirisilex wrote:Canada might be good.. Too good even.. Lots of Bandits, Crazies.. Already established safe havens that are selfish and drive people away from their territory. Retro Savages even.. Still lots of problems to deal with.

Atleast the bandits would be polite about. Hahaha! The biggest problem would be the winter. A mild Canadian winter is easily -20○c (-4○f) but mostly it is -30°c(-22°f) and lower.

cornholioprime · Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:23 pm

CarCrasher wrote:A liquid nitrogen gun would be fun to play with! A precision stream directed at the creeps legs would render it mostly immobile. To the arms mostly harmless. To the neck and head an easy kill. Don't think it would be very effective in crowd control but against several I believe it work nicely. If you have any questions about it I refef you to the predator 2 movie in which Gary Bussey's(sorry for the spelling if wrong) character uses something similar ineffectually against the young hunter. Perhaps a larger variant mounted to transport truck would work on a horde.

The Dead Reign Books imply that the zombies in that setting aren't killed by cold, only potentially rendered immobile IF they go dormant 'of their own free will,' not if they are doused by a player character in combat; they are explicitly stated to suffer only half-speed penalties in very low temperatures, but no other damage.

Please remember that the Undead (at least Palladium's Undead) are supernatural creatures that don't follow the normal rules of biology or physics.
By the sound of things, a zombie that goes dormant and then freezes, would in all likelihood retain its full S.D.C. values...and breaking open a zombie encased in ice would only break the ice, not the zombie (unlike what would happen if the same type of force was applied to normal flesh and bone).

CarCrasher · Unread post by **CarCrasher** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:53 am

cornholioprime wrote:
CarCrasher wrote:A liquid nitrogen gun would be fun to play with! A precision stream directed at the creeps legs would render it mostly immobile. To the arms mostly harmless. To the neck and head an easy kill. Don't think it would be very effective in crowd control but against several I believe it work nicely. If you have any questions about it I refef you to the predator 2 movie in which Gary Bussey's(sorry for the spelling if wrong) character uses something similar ineffectually against the young hunter. Perhaps a larger variant mounted to transport truck would work on a horde.
The Dead Reign Books imply that the zombies in that setting aren't killed by cold, only potentially rendered immobile IF they go dormant 'of their own free will,' not if they are doused by a player character in combat; they are explicitly stated to suffer only half-speed penalties in very low temperatures, but no other damage.

Please remember that the Undead (at least Palladium's Undead) are supernatural creatures that don't follow the normal rules of biology or physics.
By the sound of things, a zombie that goes dormant and then freezes, would in all likelihood retain its full S.D.C. values...and breaking open a zombie encased in ice would only break the ice, not the zombie (unlike what would happen if the same type of force was applied to normal flesh and bone).

Liquid nitrogen wouldn't incase the affected area by ice. It would freeze that sucker solid. Ever watch a video about freezing a banana in the frozen fluid and it shatters when struck by enough kinetic energy. Same thing when the procedure is applied to the creepers frozen bits. After all everything freezes solid when cold enough. So when I said to the neck and head for an easy kill I just figured everyone knew what liquid nitrogen's physical effects were and how to proceed accordingly by smashing it open like pinata.

cornholioprime · Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:17 pm

CarCrasher wrote:Liquid nitrogen wouldn't incase the affected area by ice. It would freeze that sucker solid. Ever watch a video about freezing a banana in the frozen fluid and it shatters when struck by enough kinetic energy. Same thing when the procedure is applied to the creepers frozen bits. After all everything freezes solid when cold enough. So when I said to the neck and head for an easy kill I just figured everyone knew what liquid nitrogen's physical effects were and how to proceed accordingly by smashing it open like pinata.

In the normal course of events, yes, it is true that biological material would be frozen solid by being immersed nitrogen.

HOWEVER, Dead Reign Zombies -actually the most delicate and destructible Undead in the entire Palladium Megaverse to date -can function indefinitely in the cold as long as they don't 'consciously' decide to go dormant.

In the normal course of events, ordinary biomass freezes in subzero temperatures whether the body is moving or not because the water in the individual cells freezes.

But we know from the books that Dead Reign zombies could theoretically function for weeks, years, and decades in below-freezing temperatures.

Without the aid of fur.
Without food to turn into sugar to burn.
Without the aid of a functional hypothalamus -not to mention that even a living creature in those conditions, unprotected by special clothing or insulating fur/blubber would quickly freeze to death anyway.

The fact that these supernatural creatures can function indefinitely under such conditions should tell you all that you need to know from the very outset about how their bodies would physically react to a stream of nitrogen:

There would be no freezing effect from the nitrogen, because there is no observable freezing effect in other conditions besides the half-speed penalty, period.

Undead aren't just walking mounds of flesh, they are supernaturally-powered and sustained beings that simply don't conform to laws of physiology or biology or physics, except as the authors of the fictional work in question allow them to be affected.

Tirisilex · Unread post by **Tirisilex** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:17 pm

In my Campaigns Liquid Nitrgen will freeze a Zombie and shatter like glass if struck after freezing. It's -330 degrees Celsius. It can freeze anything. Hell it did it to the Terminator. I see it as the opposite Of molten metal. That would disintegrate a Zombie. Where as -330 degrees preserves it's victim yet leaves them extremely vulnerable to kinetic energy.

cornholioprime · Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:58 pm

Tirisilex wrote:In my Campaigns Liquid Nitrgen will freeze a Zombie and shatter like glass if struck after freezing. It's -330 degrees Celsius. It can freeze anything. Hell it did it to the Terminator. I see it as the opposite Of molten metal. That would disintegrate a Zombie. Where as -330 degrees preserves it's victim yet leaves them extremely vulnerable to kinetic energy.

The operative phrase here.

Of course, there are other difficulties to consider in the first place considering the difficulties even in optimal conditions for manufacturing and maintaining sub-zero liquid substances, let alone the post-apocalyptic setting that is Dead Reign.

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:48 pm

cornholioprime wrote:
Tirisilex wrote:In my Campaigns Liquid Nitrgen will freeze a Zombie and shatter like glass if struck after freezing. It's -330 degrees Celsius. It can freeze anything. Hell it did it to the Terminator. I see it as the opposite Of molten metal. That would disintegrate a Zombie. Where as -330 degrees preserves it's victim yet leaves them extremely vulnerable to kinetic energy.
The operative phrase here.

Of course, there are other difficulties to consider in the first place considering the difficulties even in optimal conditions for manufacturing and maintaining sub-zero liquid substances, let alone the post-apocalyptic setting that is Dead Reign.

Yeah that stuff isn't easy to produce without the right industrial setup however when you have the right tools to make it (namely very large, very powerful and very well sealed air compressors) its pretty easy.

whassupman03 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:39 am

Hello...

Thinyser wrote:Yeah that stuff isn't easy to produce without the right industrial setup however when you have the right tools to make it (namely very large, very powerful and very well sealed air compressors) its pretty easy.

Luckily, I came across a website showing people how to produce liquid nitrogen in their garage. It's really neat, and it looks like the equipment needed can be somewhat easy to acquire, save for a few special doodads. Anyway, I thought that this would be constructive material for your liquid nitrogen discussion. :-)

Of course while I do believe that it is up to the GM to decide what liquid nitrogen will do to a zombie, I would be one of the people to allow the use of liquid nitrogen as an effective weapon, if I ever managed to start a campaign. Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 :mrgreen:

Thinyser · Unread post by **Thinyser** » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:33 pm

whassupman03 wrote:Hello...

Thinyser wrote:Yeah that stuff isn't easy to produce without the right industrial setup however when you have the right tools to make it (namely very large, very powerful and very well sealed air compressors) its pretty easy.

Luckily, I came across a website showing people how to produce liquid nitrogen in their garage. It's really neat, and it looks like the equipment needed can be somewhat easy to acquire, save for a few special doodads. Anyway, I thought that this would be constructive material for your liquid nitrogen discussion. Of course while I do believe that it is up to the GM to decide what liquid nitrogen will do to a zombie, I would be one of the people to allow the use of liquid nitrogen as an effective weapon, if I ever managed to start a campaign. Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03

Thanks for sharing!

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:34 pm

I wonder if the skull was frozen in liquid nitrogen if that would help protect the brain, like maybe the skull breaks and then an open-brain zombie is walking around.

whassupman03 · Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:28 am

Hello...

Thinyser wrote:Thanks for sharing!

I'm glad you appreciate it!

Tor wrote:I wonder if the skull was frozen in liquid nitrogen if that would help protect the brain, like maybe the skull breaks and then an open-brain zombie is walking around.

My hypothesis is that if a limb frozen in liquid nitrogen completely shatters upon being hit hard enough (Such as being kicked or hit with a crowbar or similar instrument), I would figure that something similar would happen to a zombie skull. However, I figure that it would still have to be hit hard enough to shatter it. A hard "tap" could theoretically expose the brain without destroying it... well at least that's what I believe. Unfortunately, I don't know much about what happens with that in real life, so my theories go by Hollywood standards. :roll:

Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03

P.S.: I hope that all of you had a Happy Thanksgiving too... :-)

Zenvis · Unread post by **Zenvis** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:06 pm

I say give them liquid nitro. Given time, the supply will run out or thin. Its a survival game after all.

whassupman03 · Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:23 am

Hello...

Zenvis wrote:I say give them liquid nitro. Given time, the supply will run out or thin. Its a survival game after all.

I agree. Of course you can't count out the production of liquid nitrogen after all, since anyone with rudimentary materials and a few electronic meters and such could build the equipment to manufacture it in a garage, as stated in my post earlier. But anyway, that's what I think. Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03