Conjurer OCC seems worthless

[Tor]

The fact that a Conjurer has access to Invocation Magic to create water (ex, still need a container) points to their OCC ability being unable to effectively produce the material in question

Ley Line Walkers are able to learn the "Sense Magic" spell. I don't see your point.

Conjurers are arguably ineffective at doing what these spells do, since they can only create temporary things unless they spend permanent PPE.

These spells allow them to create permanent things with only spending permanent PPE, so it creates incentive to select those spells.

Aside from duration, it also allows them to make more of these things for less PPE.

Conjurers knowing normal spells don't mean they HAVE to know those spells to do certain things.

Yes it does, it shows that their conjuration ability is materially limited.

Overlap between OCC abilities and spells learnable by the OCC does not impose a restriction on the OCC ability.

If it wasn't there would be no need to give them the option of learning regular spells.

Except for them being better, you mean?

They could have put it that a Conjurer can create raw material (Water, Rock, Metal, etc) as permanent without the permanenet PPE cost. A text block like that would be much shorter than the section devoted to invocation spell selection.

I'm still not sure what you're arguing here.

All this means is that no, Conjurers can't make permanent raw materials with temporary PPE unless they learn the spells.

when dealing with magic one can not be to sure what is real and what is an illusion.

'
Actually you sorta can, since illusions are pretty specific things. We know Horrific Illusion is an illusion, and we know Shadow Beasts are not.

A Conjurer can not create a working battery, even though in practice they should have no trouble with it.

Again, speaks for inability to make certain stuff, not that the stuff they can make is compromised.

If there are properties they can't conjurer for an item, then there can be other properties they can't duplicate.

We are explicitly told what properties they can't duplicate. The things you are trying to apply restrictions to are not on that list.

[ShadowLogan]

Overlap between OCC abilities and spells learnable by the OCC does not impose a restriction on the OCC ability.

Yes it does impose a restriction on the OCC ability other wise there would be no need to have the overlap.

I'm still not sure what you're arguing here.

All this means is that no, Conjurers can't make permanent raw materials with temporary PPE unless they learn the spells.

Instead of giving the Conjurer spell invocations to do aspects of their ability, they could have simply given them a special section in the text block on certain items that overlap specifically with invocations that follow different conjuration rules.

Actually you sorta can, since illusions are pretty specific things. We know Horrific Illusion is an illusion, and we know Shadow Beasts are not.

That's meta-gaming though, this is in game. You can't tell the difference automatically between a magical illusion and the real deal.

Again, speaks for inability to make certain stuff, not that the stuff they can make is compromised.

The Conjurer should have no trouble with a simple battery. If they can't get a simple battery to work, then what they make via ability is actually compromised in terms of properties.

A conjurer could create all the parts to make a potato battery (2 leads of different metals, connecting wires, and a potato) to hook up to a light bulb they found. Yet when combined they result is not a battery to power the light bulb (we'll assume someone has a real working volt-meter with them), it is a toy prop because it would violate the "can't make a battery" limitation.

We are explicitly told what properties they can't duplicate. The things you are trying to apply restrictions to are not on that list.

It is also implied that they can't produce raw materials (water, stone, wood, metal, etc) via their ability since it doesn't get discussed in that context. The only mention of conjuring those materials is via the normal invocation list.

[Tor]

Overlap between OCC abilities and spells learnable by the OCC does not impose a restriction on the OCC ability.

Yes it does impose a restriction on the OCC ability other wise there would be no need to have the overlap.

Restrictions have to be stated, you can't just assume they're there.

The restriction is already inherent in the power: impermanence and cost. The usefulness and need of spells is that they create substances which are permanent and for less PPE for greater amounts.

Instead of giving the Conjurer spell invocations to do aspects of their ability, they could have simply given them a special section in the text block on certain items that overlap specifically with invocations that follow different conjuration rules.

They could have, but they didn't, still not seeing your basis of argument. Apoks could have had Hellfire or Impervious to Symbiotes rewritten entirely for them instead of giving a damage modification... but where does this observation lead?

We know Horrific Illusion is an illusion, and we know Shadow Beasts are not.

That's meta-gaming though, this is in game. You can't tell the difference automatically between a magical illusion and the real deal.

I believe we're discussing the laws of the game, IE what we know OOC about the stuff.

If you want to discuss whether or not Conjurors or actual characters believe or know conjured items to be real or not... that's another discussion.

The Conjurer should have no trouble with a simple battery. If they can't get a simple battery to work, then what they make via ability is actually compromised in terms of properties.

No, rather, what they are able to create is limited based on those properties. The properties of things which they are able to create is not stated to be compromised.

A conjurer could create all the parts to make a potato battery (2 leads of different metals, connecting wires, and a potato) to hook up to a light bulb they found.

No, conjurors are not able to create plant life, find a new example.

They could, however, conjure up a mouse and a running wheel and make a mechanically-powered generator just fine, I would assume.

Dat horse-powered mill.

It is also implied that they can't produce raw materials (water, stone, wood, metal, etc) via their ability since it doesn't get discussed in that context.

Preposterous, they can make chairs and tables, those tend to be made of wood. They can make nails, scissors, pliers and trumpets, which tend to be made out of metal. I don't think you can make a cohesive argument against their ability to at least make wood or metal.

Water and stone would be a better approach since there is a lack of example of them making it, but even then, I see no limitations, and conjurers are not limited to the examples given, they are limited to everything but those they're explicitly restricted against making.

The only mention of conjuring those materials is via the normal invocation list.

That's simply wrong. What are we to believe conjured pots and pans are made out of? If not metal, how will it channel the heat into the food?

Heck... I found something better, and this should end half of the argument. Read page 84 right column under what costs 35 PPE. "pole of steel, large sheet or plank of wood".

So now we explictly have the substance, so let's stick to wondering whether they can do stone/water please, we know they can do steel/wood.

[eliakon]

A conjurer could create all the parts to make a potato battery (2 leads of different metals, connecting wires, and a potato) to hook up to a light bulb they found.

No, conjurors are not able to create plant life, find a new example.

They could, however, conjure up a mouse and a running wheel and make a mechanically-powered generator just fine, I would assume.

Dat horse-powered mill.

Except that it specifically states no generators, which would suggest that they can't make any generators, even ones that are powered by mice.

[FuduVudu]

A conjurer could create all the parts to make a potato battery (2 leads of different metals, connecting wires, and a potato) to hook up to a light bulb they found.

No, conjurors are not able to create plant life, find a new example.

They could, however, conjure up a mouse and a running wheel and make a mechanically-powered generator just fine, I would assume.

Dat horse-powered mill.

Except that it specifically states no generators, which would suggest that they can't make any generators, even ones that are powered by mice.

So I can't summon a mouse that can pull a magnet back and forth through a coil of copper? Does the mouse just not follow my orders when such orders generate energy? Can I trick the mouse into generating energy by hiding the power generation components or will the mouse magically know it is generating energy and stop?

[ShadowLogan]

Restrictions have to be stated, you can't just assume they're there.

The restriction is already inherent in the power: impermanence and cost. The usefulness and need of spells is that they create substances which are permanent and for less PPE for greater amounts.

The restrictions for the "Create" invocations are already there. You'll note that in known examples of the ability does not cover the creation of those substances in raw form (a polished/refined/manufactured yes, raw lump/log no).

They could have, but they didn't, still not seeing your basis of argument

That they did not points to their OCC ability being unable to be used in the same manner as the Invocation(s).

I believe we're discussing the laws of the game, IE what we know OOC about the stuff.

If you want to discuss whether or not Conjurors or actual characters believe or know conjured items to be real or not... that's another discussion.

Armor Bizarre is a an Illusionary enhanced Armor spell with no save vs magic, so you can have illusions that look real with no saving throw.

The main problem here is we don't know how this magic ability actually works:
-illusion (Armor bizarre)
-plucks it from somewhere else (dimension, time, far away)
-draws raw materials from the immediate environment (Create Water/Wood/Steel work this way)
-conversion of magic energy into matter (as matter and energy are convertable)

No, rather, what they are able to create is limited based on those properties. The properties of things which they are able to create is not stated to be compromised.

On the contrary it is implied that properties would be comprimised. Nothing really prevents a conjurer from creating a "toy" version of an item.

There is the simple Capacitor that they can't handle merely because it is an energy using device. Clearly they can produce the individual components, but put together those components would not work. The only way they could not work is if they lack the necessary properties of the base component materials. All you need to make a capacitor is 2 metal sheet/plates and 1 non-conducting material sheet/plate. We know from numerous examples they can handle either required material, but put together and it won't work.

PHeck... I found something better, and this should end half of the argument. Read page 84 right column under what costs 35 PPE. "pole of steel, large sheet or plank of wood".

Your point. Those can be seen/thought of as examples of finished products, not raw material. And it still doesn't establish they have all the properties like the Invocations (since those specifically use materials present in the environment to make).

[Tor]

it specifically states no generators, which would suggest that they can't make any generators, even ones that are powered by mice.

They are capable of making the components, they just can't summon it all as 1 thing.

The restrictions for the "Create" invocations are already there. You'll note that in known examples of the ability does not cover the creation of those substances in raw form (a polished/refined/manufactured yes, raw lump/log no).

Not being covered is not the same as a restriction.

It doesn't say I can create a Komodo Dragon, but that doesn't mean I can't.

That they did not points to their OCC ability being unable to be used in the same manner as the Invocation(s).

It isn't being used in the same manner, it doesn't make permanent stuff for temporary PPE.

Armor Bizarre is a an Illusionary enhanced Armor spell with no save vs magic, so you can have illusions that look real with no saving throw.

While true that not all illusions have saves, this does not mean we should assume things to be illusions when they are not stated to be.

we don't know how this magic ability actually works:
-illusion (Armor bizarre)
-plucks it from somewhere else (dimension, time, far away)
-draws raw materials from the immediate environment (Create Water/Wood/Steel work this way)
-conversion of magic energy into matter (as matter and energy are convertable)

Sure we do. They "create objects and animals out of thin air", third sentence of second paragraph (first being Hawkfire's rant) of page 82.

Creating objects, not illusions, not objects with illusions over them. 'Creating', not 'summoning'. Unlike Noro Ghost Makers there is no ambiguity here.

The raw materials drawn from the immediate environment are air and PPE. One might argue this means they can't make things in the vacuum of space, taking the 'air' text literally rather than metaphorically, which I opt to do for lack of alternative explanations.

It is implied that properties would be comprimised. Nothing really prevents a conjurer from creating a "toy" version of an item.

A toy battery is not a compromised battery though, it's a toy that looks like a battery.

I don't recall wood/water/stone/metal having properties the OCC discusses as being compromised though.

the simple Capacitor that they can't handle merely because it is an energy using device.

"Energy dependent" on 83's right column could be interpreted to refer to the "require an active energy source as part of their construction" phrase from the left column. Do capacitors need active energy to be made?

Going to assume that this 'energy' use involves Palladium's standard non-inclusion of kinetic energy. Might it also exclude chemical energy?

Although conjurers can't make a wholly energy-needing device, I see no restriction against them summoning components and then assembling them if they have the skill.

So they can't summon a car, but if they summoned the raw materials and made them permanent, they could build one if they had the automotive mechanical and electrical skills.

they can produce the individual components, but put together those components would not work.

Where do you get this from? I'm seeing that summoning the components as 1 item does not work, not that you can't summon them separately as separate objects and then unify them.

Those can be seen/thought of as examples of finished products, not raw material.

Probably because conjurers are more apt to summon useful things, so useful things are used as examples.

it still doesn't establish they have all the properties like the Invocations (since those specifically use materials present in the environment to make).

It does, they are wood and steel, not things which mimic it.

[ShadowLogan]

Not being covered is not the same as a restriction.

In this case it is though. Not covering a topic is the same as putting a restriction on it should the GM decide to do so. There is no actual guidance for the GM in making the call one way or the other making erring on the side of caution (ie restriction) is the best solution.

A Komodo dragon is a real animal, and characteristics allow it to be conjured provided the conjurer is suitably familiar with the animal (all of which are restrictions on if you can create an animal).

It isn't being used in the same manner, it doesn't make permanent stuff for temporary PPE.

There is no reason they could not make explicit hard rules for exceptions to the Permanency cost via their ability though.

While true that not all illusions have saves, this does not mean we should assume things to be illusions when they are not stated to be.

If the Conjuring is temporary, the conjured object/creature disappears. Seems like it could be considered an illusion.

Sure we do. They "create objects and animals out of thin air", third sentence of second paragraph (first being Hawkfire's rant) of page 82.

No we actually don't know how the it is created out of thin air. The description on how it works is absent, unlike in the create Water/Wood spells. "Out of thin air" can be literal, but it can also be figurative since they don't establish how it is created out of thin air.

A toy battery is not a compromised battery though, it's a toy that looks like a battery.

It is comprised though if the intent is for an actual battery and not a toy/prop.

Where do you get this from? I'm seeing that summoning the components as 1 item does not work, not that you can't summon them separately as separate objects and then unify them

If the simple parts can not be conjured together to work, why should it be different from conjuring them individually? A Capacitor is mechanically simple, it has no moving parts, so nothing should prevent them from summoning an uncharged capacitor in one conjuring and then charging it. That however breaks pg84 rule where it is stated they can not conjure "energy dependent devices".

Probably because conjurers are more apt to summon useful things, so useful things are used as examples.

Doesn't make sense. They can use the raw form for useful tasks to.

It does, they are wood and steel, not things which mimic it.

Doesn't mean it can't be something that is mimicking the look of wood or steel. The Conjurer can create food and drink, but per BoM it will not be edible (that would include water since it is a drink), so properties are not a 100% match for the real thing.

[Tor]

In this case it is though. Not covering a topic is the same as putting a restriction on it should the GM decide to do so.

No... it really isn't. GMs can opt to impose restrictions where none exist, or they may opt to ignore existing restrictions, or implicitly restrict something that is clearly allowed.

making erring on the side of caution (ie restriction) is the best solution.

Why's this best?

There is no reason they could not make explicit hard rules for exceptions to the Permanency cost via their ability though.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I am not saying Conjurers could create permanent wood or steal with their OCC power, they'd need to buy the spell for that.

If the Conjuring is temporary, the conjured object/creature disappears. Seems like it could be considered an illusion.

That's not how illusions work. Having a temporary duration doesn't make something an illusion. By that logic, a Psi-Sword is an illusion and Circle of Flame is an illusion. But we know they aren't, they are real things that inflict damage, they have physical substance. The same applies to conjurations.

Palladium has some half-illusions (Magic Warrior in FoM) where saving vs illusion allows you to reduce the damage, but Conjurations have nothing like that, they are 100% non-illusion. The only illusion Conjurers have or can ever select is Fool's Gold.

No we actually don't know how the it is created out of thin air.

We do: Conjurers spend PPE, the stuff is created from air, and then when the duration elapses or they are destroyed, presumably return to air.

The description on how it works is absent, unlike in the create Water/Wood spells. "Out of thin air" can be literal, but it can also be figurative since they don't establish how it is created out of thin air.

I'm aware of the figurative expression, I said it could be a metaphor but that I opt to take it literally since there's no other explanation given. As for the wood/water spells, their explanations aren't exactly that clear either. "multiply on a molecular level" from a base component, well, air has all the base components needed to make anything (protons, neutrons, electrons) and they too can be multiplied, just on a sub-atomic rather than molecular level. "create steel" also creates additional metal out of nothing. Create Water appears to just dry up the surrounding area, should really be called "condense water" IMO if nothing new is made.

if the intent is for an actual battery and not a toy/prop.

If a conjurer intended to create an actual battery, they would fail.

If the simple parts can not be conjured together to work, why should it be different from conjuring them individually?

Basically because if you can create a hamster wheel, a hamster and some rope, there's no reason why physics would fail to make you able to turn a millwheel when combining those components.

A Capacitor is mechanically simple, it has no moving parts, so nothing should prevent them from summoning an uncharged capacitor in one conjuring and then charging it. That however breaks pg84 rule where it is stated they can not conjure "energy dependent devices".

Ah, but being so mechanically simple, would it be possible to create something that could serve as one but that has other uses? Like for example, a metal wall?

Doesn't make sense. They can use the raw form for useful tasks to.

Yes, but refined materials tend to have more uses than unrefined materials, that's the whole reason we refine them. Still doesn't stand that Conjurers being able to create steel rods and wooden boards somehow means they can't make steel ore or wooden logs.

Doesn't mean it can't be something that is mimicking the look of wood or steel.

It means exactly that. We are told they are steel and wood rods and boards. So it can't be something mimicking it, it's the real thing.

The Conjurer can create food and drink, but per BoM it will not be edible (that would include water since it is a drink), so properties are not a 100% match for the real thing.

I've been going by FoM so far, I'll take a look at BoM to see if it introduced new information on this...mkay page 52... "tangible physical things out of thin air", sounds good so far. Not illusions, made from air. Mkay I see what you refer to, prior to the big "Conjuring Animals" header (left column p 85 of FoM, right column p 53 of BoM) the "no edible food or drink" part was added in.

FoM did not have that, so that could be considered a retcon of the rules, which RUE-era stuf is famous for.

That said... I could read this merely to mean that drinks conjurers made are not "edible", since nothing is said about them being non-drinkable That said, if the water you drank vanished after a few hours, that could easily lead to dehydration or something. I expect that this statement merely means that food and drink created by conjurers is not nourishing because if you ate or drank it, it would disappear after a while.

It doesn't say "can not make food or drink", simply that those things are not edible, so they could easily make faux food or drink, but you wouldn't really be "eating" it since once your stomach began to disgest the food, it would be destroyed and vanish rather than digested. I don't think it would happen like that with water though, since we do not eat water.

On an unrelated note, I'm glad to see BoM changed the 'drop a blue whale on the head' example to a 'drop a horse on the head' example, since blue whales would already be larger than rhinoceri.

[ShadowLogan]

Why's this best?

Erring on the side of caution is usually the best way to prevent abuse.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I am not saying Conjurers could create permanent wood or steal with their OCC power, they'd need to buy the spell for that.

Any Conjurer after 6th Level can though, there is no need for the Spell. What I am saying is the spell casting should not have been part of the class, and put in an exception clause in the rules that allow them to compete with certain spells w/o having those spells. That or specific spells should have been created that are exclusive to the Conjurer class as opposed to an ability.

That's not how illusions work. Having a temporary duration doesn't make something an illusion. By that logic, a Psi-Sword is an illusion and Circle of Flame is an illusion. But we know they aren't, they are real things that inflict damage, they have physical substance. The same applies to conjurations.

That is very much how illusions work, I am also saying these are advanced illusions the conjurer creates that are given some substance beyond a basic projected 3d illusion. Sort of like how Star Trek's holodecks work, or Rimmer in Red Dwarf (early on he had a soft-light body that couldn't do anything, later it was updated to hard-light allowing him to interact, but in both cases the body is still holographic image created by a fist size mobile emitter).

Palladium has some half-illusions (Magic Warrior in FoM) where saving vs illusion allows you to reduce the damage, but Conjurations have nothing like that, they are 100% non-illusion. The only illusion Conjurers have or can ever select is Fool's Gold.

Take a look at Armor Bizzare. There is no save vs magic/illusion, only a HF for the illusion created. So yes you can have an illusion w/o any saving throw in terms of magic/effectiveness (Horror Factor is not about magic).

We do: Conjurers spend PPE, the stuff is created from air, and then when the duration elapses or they are destroyed, presumably return to air.

No actually we don't. "the stuff is created from air" can be taken literally, or figuratively. In the first case the matter present in the air is rearranged to create the object/creature in question. In the second case the "air" has nothing to do with it as it is a figure of speech since it can also apply to creating illusions and teleporting.

The text for the Conjurer doesn't given any indication which it is literal or figurative. Spell versions certainly do, but not the Conjurer ability itself.

Basically because if you can create a hamster wheel, a hamster and some rope, there's no reason why physics would fail to make you able to turn a millwheel when combining those components.

That example is more likely to work provided we are talking some ancient/medevil application. However you could not use it to create an electrical generator since that combination violates the restrictions placed on what the conjurer can create. Magic is still in play, so physics may still have to take backseat if the result breaks the restrictions on the conjurer.

Ah, but being so mechanically simple, would it be possible to create something that could serve as one but that has other uses? Like for example, a metal wall?

Create something for other uses is possible, but it still would not be able to function in its intended energy using role since Conjured items can't be used in that role.

We are told they are steel and wood rods and boards. So it can't be something mimicking it, it's the real thing.

It doesn't mean it is the real thing. This is magic we are dealing with after all.

That said... I could read this merely to mean that drinks conjurers made are not "edible", since nothing is said about them being non-drinkable

I don't doubt the drink and food can be consumed, but the fact they are not edible points to them having different properties from real food/drink since the very definition of edible means that it is "fit to be eaten" (Merrian Webster Dictionary). So what every it may look like, it is not fit to be eaten/consumed. No allowances are made to create edible food or drink (which includes Water) via ability even if creating a permanent example.

[flatline]

Why's this best?

Erring on the side of caution is usually the best way to prevent abuse.

I don't really care much about this thread topic, but I thought I'd comment on this one small bit that was said.

Erring on the side of caution is a way to prevent abuse, but it also eliminates the potential of a lot of great game play and it penalizes the players for something they haven't even done yet.

I say go the other way. Do everything you can to empower your players and then handle any abuse if it happens. Good players will always be riding the line between "clever" and "abusive" use of their abilities and if you remove the potential for "abusive" use, you've also greatly reduced the potential for "clever" use.

Don't be that GM.

--flatline

[arouetta]

Why's this best?

Erring on the side of caution is usually the best way to prevent abuse.

I don't really care much about this thread topic, but I thought I'd comment on this one small bit that was said.

Erring on the side of caution is a way to prevent abuse, but it also eliminates the potential of a lot of great game play and it penalizes the players for something they haven't even done yet.

I say go the other way. Do everything you can to empower your players and then handle any abuse if it happens. Good players will always be riding the line between "clever" and "abusive" use of their abilities and if you remove the potential for "abusive" use, you've also greatly reduced the potential for "clever" use.

Don't be that GM.

--flatline

Agreed. I instituted a house rule a while back for one of my games to get more skills. Everyone was reasonable with it. Then that one player came along. A simple "No, I won't allow you to abuse this rule to build a minor god." stopped that situation cold, but the rule itself still stood just fine. I didn't punish the rest as they were creative not abusive.

[Tor]

Erring on the side of caution is usually the best way to prevent abuse.

Why would these things be abuse? Abuse hasn't even been defined here.

not saying Conjurers could create permanent wood or steal with their OCC power, they'd need to buy the spell for that.

Any Conjurer after 6th Level can though, there is no need for the Spell.

You mean except for avoiding a crippling permanent PPE cost?

the spell casting should not have been part of the class

Too bad, they were given spells, some with some overlap with the OCC ability.

an exception clause in the rules that allow them to compete with certain spells w/o having those spells.

Except it doesn't, because mimicking those spells with the OCC ability is heavily inferior since it only creates temporary things at a huge expense.

I am also saying these are advanced illusions the conjurer creates that are given some substance beyond a basic projected 3d illusion. Sort of like how Star Trek's holodecks work, or Rimmer in Red Dwarf (early on he had a soft-light body that couldn't do anything, later it was updated to hard-light allowing him to interact, but in both cases the body is still holographic image created by a fist size mobile emitter).

No basis exists for your assertion, their spells are not described as illusions. The only illusion they have is Fool's Gold.

Take a look at Armor Bizzare. There is no save vs magic/illusion, only a HF for the illusion created. So yes you can have an illusion w/o any saving throw in terms of magic/effectiveness (Horror Factor is not about magic).

I think you're ignoring what I was arguing. While it is true that not all illusions require savings throws, all illusions DO say that they are illusions, as Armor Bizarre does. They are also affected by illusion-related spells, like Illusion Booster. Seeing as how Magic Warrior and Armor Bizarre are only partly illusion I would not have that spell work on them though.

In the first case the matter present in the air is rearranged to create the object/creature in question. In the second case the "air" has nothing to do with it as it is a figure of speech since it can also apply to creating illusions and teleporting.

If something is created in thin air, rather than out of it, this would displace the air and increase the air density. This is a major consideration that would have a lot of mechanical issues in some circumstances.

For example, if I was in a vacuum-sealed room with a limited air supply and then conjured a horse, that air it displaced, if it doesn't vanish, would become very condensed, and possibly amplify the air pressure several-fold.

The text for the Conjurer doesn't given any indication which it is literal or figurative. Spell versions certainly do, but not the Conjurer ability itself.

Absence of alternative explanation leads me to take from-air literally.

you could not use it to create an electrical generator since that combination violates the restrictions placed on what the conjurer can create. Magic is still in play, so physics may still have to take backseat if the result breaks the restrictions on the conjurer.

Inability to conjure a generator is not an inability to fashion a generator out of base components.

If you look at the 'moving components' limit, there's nothing stopping me from fashioning a bicycle in halves.

We are told they are steel and wood rods and boards. So it can't be something mimicking it, it's the real thing.

It doesn't mean it is the real thing. This is magic we are dealing with after all.

The book says it is wood and metal. If you are saying it is not, you are ignoring the book.

If magic says something is made, it is made. Magic lightning is actually lightning. Fireball is actually fire. If we are told something is something, it is only not that something if we are told it is not that something.

the fact they are not edible points to them having different properties from real food/drink since the very definition of edible means that it is "fit to be eaten" (Merrian Webster Dictionary). So what every it may look like, it is not fit to be eaten/consumed. No allowances are made to create edible food or drink (which includes Water) via ability even if creating a permanent example.

Water is never edible, since we do not eat it.

One could argue that nutritionless food is not fit to be eaten, in which case, I believe Conjurers could make a diet Coke or something like that, flavour but no calories or vitamins. I think the Nightlords make something like that.

[Nightmask]

Going to skip quoting things and just make a few points here.

It's the CONJURER OCC, NOT the ILLUSIONIST OCC, implicit in the title as well as explicit in the text is that they actually create things and what they create aren't illusions they're tangible items they simply don't remain physically cohesive if you don't spend permanent PPE on them (and should be obvious that if you can do that they can't be illusions but tangible items).

It should be self-evident why food or drink created by the spell isn't considered edible it's because it vanishes after the spell duration runs out and you can't derive nourishment from something that doesn't sit around for digestion and incorporation into your cellular structure. It's not because the food or drink is an illusion it just doesn't exist long enough to be digested and satisfy any physical needs.

[Tor]

Well... I'm not sure, at higher levels it can last hours, can't take THAT long to absorb water. I'm just thinking it's a neat diuretic-type effect. The body will start eliminating the water it already has, thinking fresh water is on the way... and then it isn't.

On an unrelated note, since Conjurers can make suits of armor... is there anything preventing them from touching a friend and making the armor appear suited on their friend? Or would it just appear on the ground and your friend would have to spend time suiting up? Based on wording I would think the latter but I kinda wish there were a way to speed-suit allies to protect them.

[Thinyser]

So what you're saying is...they can conjure forth a fortune. Precious metals and stones...perhaps perfectly smelted and cut with no impurities or imperfections?

I'd be okay with this. best friend ever.

I would be ok burning 1d6 PPE permanently to have a 40 POUND flawless and perfectly cut diamond at level 1.
Then retire!
It would save a lot of time adventuring!
EDIT: well I guess I would have to play til level 6 to make it permanent. But still that wouldn't be so bad.

I think this would be a great multi-class character. Start out as a conjurer then switch to something else like LLW or a non-magic OCC so that your PPE base doesn't really matter and you can burn it without as much regret.

[Thinyser]

Man now I'm really regretting not dual classing with Conjurer then moving on to my Juggler/Knife Thrower!

It would be freaking awesome to have some magic abilities (everyone else in my group has magic or psi or both and I got nothing but quick hands).

[Nightmask]

So what you're saying is...they can conjure forth a fortune. Precious metals and stones...perhaps perfectly smelted and cut with no impurities or imperfections?

I'd be okay with this. best friend ever.

I would be ok burning 1d6 PPE permanently to have a 40 POUND flawless and perfectly cut diamond at level 1.
Then retire!
It would save a lot of time adventuring!
EDIT: well I guess I would have to play til level 6 to make it permanent. But still that wouldn't be so bad.

I think this would be a great multi-class character. Start out as a conjurer then switch to something else like LLW or a non-magic OCC so that your PPE base doesn't really matter and you can burn it without as much regret.

Except how do you justify someone burning off their PPE like that to permanently cripple themselves (since Conjuring is part of them by making themselves unable to conjure they've crippled themselves)?

Of course if you don't mind being a thief it's not like you have to make such things permanent, just have various underworld connections and skills like Streetwise to create fake ID and arrange to sell the stuff and abscond with the cash before the item vanishes on them. Certain heroes might consider it a good deed as they're depriving criminals of their ill-gotten gains and providing them with nothing in return, might even get some criminals killed as their bosses feel like their underling robbed them and the 'Honest boss it just vanished!' claim just a pathetic attempt to get away with stealing from their boss (although getting someone killed should count against you even if it is a criminal).

[Thinyser]

I don't think making a few items of great value permanent and losing 10-11 PPE (based on 3 avg d6 rolls) is crippling them. But hey YMMV.

[Tor]

Can we calculate the most expensive permanent item a Conjurer could make compared to the cost of something like an Eye of Eylor which would give them a PPE boost to compensate?

[Giant2005]

Can we calculate the most expensive permanent item a Conjurer could make compared to the cost of something like an Eye of Eylor which would give them a PPE boost to compensate?

No need. A lobee-Optos proved 10 P.P.E. to its host. All he needs to do is summon one, have it bond to him, use its PPE to make something permanent and then tell it to get the hell out of his head and find some rock to die under.
Repeat as necessary.

[PigLickJF]

Just a note: Magic that kills things that are bacterial vs things that are viral... the flu and Aids are viral, Pneomina, Meningitis, rickets, etc are bacterial, other diseases are actually parastic infections...
but Cure Disease ( in PFRPG 2nd ed) was meant to cure only bacterial diseases.

Actually meningitis can be either bacterial or viral. Rickets is neither, it's caused by a deficiency in vitamin D or calcium - perhaps you were thinking of some other disease?

I'm not familiar with the spell so I can't say for sure, but does it really specify that it's only meant to cure bacterial diseases? I find that a bit strange, but Palladium can be a bit wacky at times, so I guess I really wouldn't be that shocked if it were the case.

PigLick

[Thinyser]

Just a note: Magic that kills things that are bacterial vs things that are viral... the flu and Aids are viral, Pneomina, Meningitis, rickets, etc are bacterial, other diseases are actually parastic infections...
but Cure Disease ( in PFRPG 2nd ed) was meant to cure only bacterial diseases.

Actually meningitis can be either bacterial or viral. Rickets is neither, it's caused by a deficiency in vitamin D or calcium - perhaps you were thinking of some other disease?

I'm not familiar with the spell so I can't say for sure, but does it really specify that it's only meant to cure bacterial diseases? I find that a bit strange, but Palladium can be a bit wacky at times, so I guess I really wouldn't be that shocked if it were the case.

PigLick

The spell is Cure Illness and it states that it works on ordinary disease and illness such as fever (which is often viral) and the Flu (which is viral) and other common ailments, but not on cancer, the common cold (which I find odd), lung disease, wounds, internal organ damage or any magical illness.

[eliakon]

Just a note: Magic that kills things that are bacterial vs things that are viral... the flu and Aids are viral, Pneomina, Meningitis, rickets, etc are bacterial, other diseases are actually parastic infections...
but Cure Disease ( in PFRPG 2nd ed) was meant to cure only bacterial diseases.

Actually meningitis can be either bacterial or viral. Rickets is neither, it's caused by a deficiency in vitamin D or calcium - perhaps you were thinking of some other disease?

I'm not familiar with the spell so I can't say for sure, but does it really specify that it's only meant to cure bacterial diseases? I find that a bit strange, but Palladium can be a bit wacky at times, so I guess I really wouldn't be that shocked if it were the case.

PigLick

The spell is Cure Illness and it states that it works on ordinary disease and illness such as fever (which is often viral) and the Flu (which is viral) and other common ailments, but not on cancer, the common cold (which I find odd), lung disease, wounds, internal organ damage or any magical illness.

Cure Illness
A potent magic that can cure ordinary disease and illness, such as fever, flu, and other common diseases. The magic can not cure cancer, AIDs, lung disease, wounds, broken bones, or internal damage to organs only sickness caused by bacteria. Nor can it cure magically induced sickness or disorder.

....SO great, in the Palladium Megaverse the flue is caused by a bacteria not a virus.

[Thinyser]

Just a note: Magic that kills things that are bacterial vs things that are viral... the flu and Aids are viral, Pneomina, Meningitis, rickets, etc are bacterial, other diseases are actually parastic infections...
but Cure Disease ( in PFRPG 2nd ed) was meant to cure only bacterial diseases.

Actually meningitis can be either bacterial or viral. Rickets is neither, it's caused by a deficiency in vitamin D or calcium - perhaps you were thinking of some other disease?

I'm not familiar with the spell so I can't say for sure, but does it really specify that it's only meant to cure bacterial diseases? I find that a bit strange, but Palladium can be a bit wacky at times, so I guess I really wouldn't be that shocked if it were the case.

PigLick

The spell is Cure Illness and it states that it works on ordinary disease and illness such as fever (which is often viral) and the Flu (which is viral) and other common ailments, but not on cancer, the common cold (which I find odd), lung disease, wounds, internal organ damage or any magical illness.

Cure Illness
A potent magic that can cure ordinary disease and illness, such as fever, flu, and other common diseases. The magic can not cure cancer, AIDs, lung disease, wounds, broken bones, or internal damage to organs only sickness caused by bacteria. Nor can it cure magically induced sickness or disorder.

....SO great, in the Palladium Megaverse the flue is caused by a bacteria not a virus.

That must have been added at some point, I quoted from 3rd printing (C 1998) and it doesnt say anything about Aids or what you have in red. Besides its self contradictory since flu is caused by the influenza virus and not bacteria.

This is what 1998 printing has

"A potent magic that can cure ordinary disease and illness, such as fever, flu, and other common ailments. The magic cannot cure cancer, lung disease, the common cold, wounds, broken bones or internal damage to organs. Nor can it cure magically induced sicknesses or disorders."

[Tor]

A lobee-Optos proved 10 P.P.E. to its host. All he needs to do is summon one, have it bond to him, use its PPE to make something permanent and then tell it to get the hell out of his head and find some rock to die under. Repeat as necessary.

This assumes it is possible to select WHICH of your PPE you can sacrifice. I would think the first thing you would spend is your own personal base.

The lobee-opto trick could perhaps work but only if you were hovering around 0 most of the time, having depleted your base and relying on recycling those.

You could probably do the same trick with heart worms to use the bonus SDC for golem creation, but I think permanent costs would only come off symbiotes once your own had been depleted.

[eliakon]

A lobee-Optos proved 10 P.P.E. to its host. All he needs to do is summon one, have it bond to him, use its PPE to make something permanent and then tell it to get the hell out of his head and find some rock to die under. Repeat as necessary.

This assumes it is possible to select WHICH of your PPE you can sacrifice. I would think the first thing you would spend is your own personal base.

The lobee-opto trick could perhaps work but only if you were hovering around 0 most of the time, having depleted your base and relying on recycling those.

You could probably do the same trick with heart worms to use the bonus SDC for golem creation, but I think permanent costs would only come off symbiotes once your own had been depleted.

I would agree myself. I would in fact think that the PPE from symbiotes is just that...the Symbiotes PPE, and you just get to use it...but I would not allow a person to burn it off.

[Tor]

I wouldn't mind so much if it was one of those 'I'm attached to you forever and you die if I'm removed' PPE, but the ones you can scare off and replace does create that trick.

[flatline]

I think that instead of burning permanent PPE base in order to make an object permanent, it would be better to make it expensive enough PPE-wise that the GM can control how often permanent objects are made by controlling the amount of PPE available from the environment (ley lines, other people, etc). That way, the GM has an instant off switch if the ability is abused by the player.

I don't have the Conjurer description in front of me so I can't suggest actual numbers, but if X is the cost to conjure an object, the cost to conjure it and make it permanent should probably take the form of A * X + C. I suggest setting C as a constant no matter what is being conjured and set A according to the type of thing being conjured (perhaps based on its value so that bars of gold are more expensive to make permanent than planks of wood).

If you set the cost high enough relative to the Conjurer's PPE base, then you don't actually have to throttle the PPE available in the environment to control abuse which is nice if there are other PCs that need PPE that you don't want to penalize.

--flatline

[J_Danger]

We can all agree that 10 MDC is more than say, 50 HP, right? Just saying.

[Tor]

If a Conjurer or High Magus burns off their PPE they should just go visit Wormwood and put their essence in a Life Essence Crystal and then insert that crystal into a brain-dead living being and then use that new pool. Rinse and repeat. I'm sure the Gene Splicers can accomodate.