Rifts table top wargame

[kaid]

I think it will depend how well the robotech table top game does. If that goes well and they like the relationship with the mini guys they are working with I would be pretty surprised if they did not eventually do something similar with rifts.

[Shark_Force]

not too long ago someone was considering making an effort for it as a fan-based thing. though honestly, i feel like 28 mm scale for an actual wargame in rifts wouldn't work so well. you'd have to go much smaller scale i think, purely because 1" = 5' (approx) means that a laser rifle with a 2000' range will fire 400" on the tabletop. never mind if someone wants to get some benefit out of the glitter boy's 11,000 foot range, or even short range missiles (which mostly have a range of about 5 miles).

honestly, even if you were to go with 1/10th of that scale (so that 1" = 50 ft) i feel like 40" on a tabletop would be pretty crazy. you'd probably need to go down to at least 1" = 100' to get something reasonable (20" range for a fairly average laser rifle, though glitter boys would still fire 110" which is going to be basically the same as "if you can see them, you can shoot them" on just about any board i've ever seen or heard of...

then again, you'd have the same problem with skirmish. except that for skirmish, you'd have to represent single units, while at least for a full-on wargame you could have a unit of troops represented.

the other problem the guy who was trying to figure out some basic rules to set up for a rifts table top wargame ran into is that magic and psionics has a truly ridiculous array of possible effects, many of which aren't necessarily easy to model in effectively. his initial idea was CS vs tolkeen, but i think he decided that having such a magic-heavy army as his first effort was a bit abitious and decided he might want to go with a different set of factions.

but if you do some searching of the forums, you might be able to find at least his basic ideas.

oh, and i also know that someone else made paper tokens of various rifts vehicles and stuff. not sure where you would find those either, but they're out there somewhere.

[Zer0 Kay]

Only two in the beginning. If it goes well im sure we'll see AOTSC and RT Masters, Freedom Fighters vs. Invid. REEF vs. Haydonites. Hope the parts are swapable enough to easily make frankenmecha... why arent they named Stingers after the Malcontents' frankenmecha?

[Zer0 Kay]

Im waiting for Tommy to authorize a Sentinels reboot, cuz they still refer to it. Heck even the horrible new lancercentric movie had a clip that showed the Sentinels Monster mecha

[FatherMorpheus]

If someone was to work up some good Miniature based combat rules using flat tokens to start people could get a feel for the game. Then really skilled people could tweak various 40K miniatures (as well as others) into Rifts based armies.

Coming up with the rule set first, helps prove out the game play. Miniatures can come later.

[Bill]

I agree with the gentlemen above. I also think that mass battle at larger than 15mm would make the up front costs of creating more than two armies very difficult. One of the reasons why skirmish games are so popular is that 64 figures can easily make up 8 separate factions, allowing for more variety in a local meta and appealing to a wider range do aesthetics. Fantasy gamers are much less inclined to build entire armies from two poses than fans of historical war games.

Perhaps it could be done in a two-player strategy game format? Coalition vs Federation of Magic in brightly colored plastic?

[random_username]

This thread reminded me of a web site about the various types of miniatures out there. Generalized context, contrast, and comparison of paper, plastic, and pewter minis. Modifying, painting, scaling, storing, locating, pricing, and so forth.

https://twitter.com/TOWargameMinis

[Mechghost]

Yup, need rules first. after that you can work out the minis, I would go 14mm scale for small skirmish type game system or 6mm (like 40K epic scale) for a more army on army scale - figure how big robots would be in 28mm, lets say a Forager - 30ft tall - in 28mm would be what about 6" tall? in 14mm scale it would be 3" a decent size, most PA would be about an inch or just under? infantry are still easily paintable at that scale (I used to paint Epic scale, not much fun lol)

Of course this is just of the cuff.

[Shark_Force]

again, something like federation of magic as one of the first factions would be ridiculous to try and pull off correctly. the sheer variety would be miserable. it would be much easier to try and keep it very straightforward for the most part with the first couple, and only have a few spells or special powers to take into account for the first few. for example, you could have free quebec, the CS, the pecos empire, and vampires as the starting factions. you could include rules for a few special characters like mind melters (CS psi-squad) or shifters, and not have to try to focus on having hundreds of different spells to try and categorize effects for. i mean, yes, a shifter does have access to lots of spells, but their narrower focus of preferred spells should really narrow it down.

especially since to properly do federation of magic, you'll likely have to consider at least 3 separate factions, stormspire's TW gear (which can have a ridiculous amount of variation), warlock elemental magic, the mystic knights, and the full range of standard invocation magic. and then have dozens of different demons and monsters.

even for something like the pecos empire you're probably going to need to have some variety of d-bees and semi-unique character types.

alternately, you could set it in europe and start off with, say, triax, the gargoyle empire, mindwerks/brodkil... not sure who else to include. england maybe?

[Lt Gargoyle]

I would love a table top game, i get the models I want and I would have a new game to play.

[Bill]

Take a longer view, shark force. That the FoM has distinct internal factions and a nigh infinite variety for troops is an advantage. Imagine that the core set focuses on a single faction and provides troops that support the intended play style; probably hit and run tactics to oppose the coalition's brute force and overwhelming numbers. Later, expansions can be added to both sides to provide the depth that you're citing as being too much to start the game with. Similarly, the magic available in the core set would need to be limited to a hand full of unit enhancing spells that can be bought in advance of play and spells that are unique to a character model. This too would be expanded upon with more characters and additional unit spells as the game grows.

<edit>
Also, reviewing p17 of FoM, 53% of Dweomer's population is human with another 32.5% described as non-supernatural d-bees. And on the following page, 25% of the military is made up of common Battle Magi and 25% conventional infantry. That seems pretty manageable to me for the core of a wargame. Effectively, we'd have mundane infantry that can be equipped with technowizard gear and elite troops that can be augmented with spells.

FoM goes on to describe Dweomer Defense Patrols as being highly variable in composition, but generally breaking down into something well suited to a skirmish game. Individual mass battle formations, squads or another form of unit, would not be so variable and would require some deviation from the source material to be practical. I think this would necessarily take the form of special unit detachments. Such as, Battle Magi Controllers and Automatons, Summoned Demons, or a large supernatural creature like a giant or dragon.

All in all, a Federation of Magic army seems very manageable to me.
</edit>

While it would certainly be possible to focus on less diversified forces at the beginning, like those you've named, I think it would be a mistake to not use the larger, more compelling conflict. Ultimately, the argument is irrelevant. No such game is in the offing, and any fan-generated content will operate off of paper counters, permitting any degree of variety the players wish. And, even if such a game were to be planned, I feel safe in the assumption that no input from this community would be solicited.

[Shark_Force]

even if you "only" have battle magi, high magi, and... err... controller magi?

you still have a ridiculous variety. you have to deal with a lot of different possible spells. two magi could be very similar, but they could also be extremely different from each other.

[Bill]

even if you "only" have battle magi, high magi, and... err... controller magi?

you still have a ridiculous variety. you have to deal with a lot of different possible spells. two magi could be very similar, but they could also be extremely different from each other.

No, you don't.

A war game could not and should not be a direct translation of the RPG. Because of the number of pieces on the board it is necessarily more abstract in nature. Building out the individual models' powers like you would characters in your role-playing game is not only impractical, it opens far too many opportunities for errors to occur and exploits to be found. To translate Battle Magi into a war game unit, the designers would only need to work out a hand full of spells that directly augment a player's units or directly hinder the opponents'. Nothing else is relevant to the tabletop environment. They'd probably also not bother with anything that effects less than a whole squad.

We would end up with a unit, Battle Magi, that could be purchased up to a maximum number of guys per unit for x number of points per guy. For the purposes of a mass-battle game, all Battle Magi are necessarily identical in their abilities. The unit could then be enhanced with a limited number of "spells", granting enhancements to stats, attacks, defenses, or imposing penalties on your opponent's units for additional points. One member of the unit could be upgraded to a High Magus for additional points, granting the unit an enhanced morale and possibly an additional magic effect or attack.

More variable characters such as high magi, ley line walkers, shifters, or other spell casters could be made available as named special characters, Lord Alistair Dunscon for example. Their "spell" effects would be unique to them to support building forces around those characters and to effectively evaluate their individual point values. It also limits the degree to which unforeseen synergies can disrupt the game, reducing the necessity of errata and "nerfing" of powers. The latter is something we don't often need to deal with in RPGs because the GM serves as an arbitrator who can adjust things as necessary moment to moment. Rifts in particular is famous for casting fairness and balance to the side as irrelevant. However, because war games are at their core competitive, fairness and balance become much more important considerations.

[Shark_Force]

if you're going to have a completely homogenous army with no distinct abilities, you're not really representing the federation of magic. certainly, some things can and should be simplified, but the simple fact is that one of the main things about fighting the federation of magic is that you should never be 100% certain what exactly you're facing, because every mage *is* a character, and while you might need to consider what can be applied at the unit level rather than the individual level (bearing in mind that you're not looking at a direct 1:1 comparison of time, so something like armour of ithan could be distributed), you should be able to have units that have enough guys with the same spell and allow a large variety of effects in through that.

if it needs to be balanced, balance it in point costs.

[random_username]

Based upon what folks have seemed interested in so far for such a variant it would essentially be the miniatures version of the simplified Rifts variant of the short lived Rifts Collectible Card Game. So obscure it can be annoying to even google enough relevant information.

[Bill]

if you're going to have a completely homogenous army with no distinct abilities, you're not really representing the federation of magic. certainly, some things can and should be simplified, but the simple fact is that one of the main things about fighting the federation of magic is that you should never be 100% certain what exactly you're facing, because every mage *is* a character, and while you might need to consider what can be applied at the unit level rather than the individual level (bearing in mind that you're not looking at a direct 1:1 comparison of time, so something like armour of ithan could be distributed), you should be able to have units that have enough guys with the same spell and allow a large variety of effects in through that.

if it needs to be balanced, balance it in point costs.

Unless you want to make it a skirmish based game about warring factions within the FoM, I just can't see that degree of granularity being viable. And it's not what computer trucker asked for. He wants a mass battle game, which demands a higher degree of abstraction for the sake of playability. And, upon further consideration, I can't even agree with you regarding the alternative factions that you have mentioned previously. Almost all of them have access to a similar degree of variety in their troops and special character options to the FoM, whether magical, psychic, or technological in nature.

[Bill]

However, I personally believe that Palladium would have a hell of a time creating such a system and getting it into production. They've already made a huge mess of RTT and it's not even really their system.

I agree with you 100%. I think no sane partner company, or even independent writer, would take the job without a clear noninterference agreement. Which, of course, KS would never agree to.

[FatherMorpheus]

However, I personally believe that Palladium would have a hell of a time creating such a system and getting it into production. They've already made a huge mess of RTT and it's not even really their system.

I agree with you 100%. I think no sane partner company, or even independent writer, would take the job without a clear noninterference agreement. Which, of course, KS would never agree to.

See, the easier route would be to create the rules and build instructions for how to modify miniatures from various lines out there. IE Go totally open source or underground game.

If you build good enough rules, then you could build a following for it on its own right. The hard part would be building good rules in a vacuum. You need lots of play testing for that type of thing. LOTS of play testing.

[Bill]

You volunteering? I might get behind a project like that, but I'm too busy with my day job to take it on solo.

[FatherMorpheus]

You volunteering? I might get behind a project like that, but I'm too busy with my day job to take it on solo.

I'm no good at Mini's games. And I also am super busy, though... I know a guy that knows mini-games really well. It might be an interesting project.

[Shark_Force]

if you're going to have a completely homogenous army with no distinct abilities, you're not really representing the federation of magic. certainly, some things can and should be simplified, but the simple fact is that one of the main things about fighting the federation of magic is that you should never be 100% certain what exactly you're facing, because every mage *is* a character, and while you might need to consider what can be applied at the unit level rather than the individual level (bearing in mind that you're not looking at a direct 1:1 comparison of time, so something like armour of ithan could be distributed), you should be able to have units that have enough guys with the same spell and allow a large variety of effects in through that.

if it needs to be balanced, balance it in point costs.

Unless you want to make it a skirmish based game about warring factions within the FoM, I just can't see that degree of granularity being viable. And it's not what computer trucker asked for. He wants a mass battle game, which demands a higher degree of abstraction for the sake of playability. And, upon further consideration, I can't even agree with you regarding the alternative factions that you have mentioned previously. Almost all of them have access to a similar degree of variety in their troops and special character options to the FoM, whether magical, psychic, or technological in nature.

are you suggesting that it is somehow impossible for an entire group of wizards to all know impervious to energy, or dominate, or other spells like that? you might need to make some rules for how that impacts combat in general (for example, if you have 10 mages who use impervious to energy on 10 of the 100 soldiers in a unit, you need to figure out what that means practically speaking), but it's completely plausible, and it would cheapen magic if that option wasn't available. same as if you didn't have stuff like invisibility, teleporting, and so on.

furthermore, no those other factions don't have nearly the same variation. psionics has basically 3 abilities that matter in combat, the rest can largely be ignored or simply converted to stat bonuses (ie sixth sense) and relatively few people would even notice: super telekinesis, bio-manipulation, and whatever flavour of telemechanic control power you prefer (you could *maybe* make an argument for mentally possess others, and telemechanic paralysis, but it still basically boils down to 3 powers, the only difference being what you can target with those 3 powers). apart from that, you do have some specific classes, but you really can legitimately just have all bursters basically the same, because their significant powers are the same. not true with spellcasters, there's just a massive variety of spells. when you talk about a burster, you don't generally have someone thinking of whether the burster chose telekinesis or ectoplasm, you think "oh yeah, those guys who manipulate fire", because most of their power is tied up in that. even a psi-stalker or dog boy, which gets a fair selection of powers, you're basically looking at a unit that is going to be fairly homogenous... there isn't a huge difference on the scale of hundreds of troops whether you know regular telekinesis or not. it's not something that you would regularly expect to come up, in contrast to the number of different combat spells that you could use.

and even the factions that have access to magic that i listed as alternate suggestions, they aren't primarily spellcasters. certainly, the pecos empire as a whole should have magic users, but they're not a magic nation. they're just a nation that has a few magic users. if you didn't have rules for a single type of magic user, the pecos empire could fit just fine. it would feel weird that you couldn't include spellcasters, but you could legitimately make a pecos empire army (really a large raiding party) that doesn't use magic. the vampires are basically the same... yeah, they'll have spellcaster allies, but vampires on the whole are specifically noted as not typically using spell magic, but rather relying on their natural vampire powers... which are basically the same for every vampire out there.

in contrast, to make a faction of the federation of magic feel like an actual faction from the federation of magic, you kinda do have to focus on magic, because that's the focus of the faction. for the pecos empire, you could just include rules for 10-15 spells, have rules for what it costs to have a unit with X spellcasters that know that spell, and that's fine... because nobody is expecting the pecos empire to use magic for everything. when it comes to the federation of magic, you are expecting them to use magic for a whole lot more, because it's the federation of magic. magic is what they do. you can't have rules for a tiny selection of spells and expect it to feel like the federation of magic is going to war.

[The Galactus Kid]

I would be very interested in a RIFTS table top game. That said, it would be important to have a good plan and a good modeling partner well before development, and to take into account the failures or successes of similar properties and games (Infinity, AT-43, Malifaux, Warmachine Etc.). It would also be important to consider if this would be a stand-alone game or tied to the RPG like Warmachine/Hordes is tied to the Iron Kingdoms RPG by privateer press.

[glitterboy2098]

while there are already 25mm scale figures, i think any rifts miniatures game would be better suited to 15mm. also known as 1:100 scale.

the figures are large enough for useful detail on infantry, but small enough that costs are kept low, and you can use vehicles and more plausible seeming ranges without needing massive play areas. it is also close to the most common model train scale, HO (1:87th scale), giving a huge easily attainable terrain options. 15mm is also one a popular wargaming scale right now, with examples like Flames of War. which would provide a lot of non-palladium figures and vehicles that can be purchased if the palladium based figures don't have something a player wants. it also means there is plenty of gaming terrain in that scale, both historical, scifi, and fantasy.

[Bill]

Shark, I've said my piece and you're unswayed. We're going to have to accept that we disagree on how a wargame should represent the Federation of Magic. I do think you're going to be deeply disappointed with any mass-battle game that ever comes out. Fortunately, you probably won't ever have to experience it.

As for scale, I'm on the fence. As a collector, modeler, and painter, I vastly prefer 28mm-32mm. And my experience as a hobby retailer many years ago inclines me to think that this size of figures is just easier to sell. That said, for real tactical games that feature hundreds of models, it's highly expensive and impractical.

The size of war machines common to Rifts is another problem that favors a smaller scale solution. Literally every tiny city-state seems to have 20 to 30ft tall robots in its arsenal. Four to six inch tall pieces can be made, but tend to be prohibitively expensive; resin pieces will go for anywhere from $40 to $200 depending on the quality and the manufacturer.

If you're interested in doing some test runs or demonstrations of a war game adaptation of the Megaversal RP rules in 15mm, check out Khurasan Miniatures. They have some very impressive stuff in their catalogue.

[Shark_Force]

why would i be disappointed in any mass wargame battle that came out? i haven't looked at warhammer in quite some time (they're on what, like, 8th edition or something now? last i looked was somewhere around 2nd, i think). there were something like a dozen different schools of magic iirc (just did some quick research, it's actually , each of which had something like a dozen spells, and those schools of magic were all common to most armies that used magic extensively. often, each faction would then add their own style of magic to the mix.

so ummm... that's something like 100 spells for most armies that have a focus on magic?

seems to me like you can have a perfectly successful table top wargame and have a decent variety of spells. by which i mean, the most widely recognized fantasy tabletop wargame in the world has a large variety of spells, therefore it's obviously possible, because it already happened. and, for a faction where practically the default unit should be spellcasters, to represent it properly you're going to need quite a few spells to choose from.

now, to represent a faction that should have some limited access to magic, sure, 10-15 spell effects is plenty. but if you want to make something feel like the siege on tolkeen, you're going to need to represent just how absolutely horrid it would be to fight an enemy where you never know what they bring to the table, where almost any enemy unit you face is going to be different from the last one, and almost all of them can bend reality to their will in different ways. where the faction has hundreds of freaking adult or even ancient dragons, each of which is a master of magic. you can't have like 10-15 possible spells and expect that to feel like you're fighting against tolkeen. likewise with the federation of magic. there are demons that should know demonic magic, there are half a dozen completely different kinds of mages if not more, and each of them will be bringing something completely different to the table, and even two spellcasters of the same type could still have completely different spells.

you'd need 4 different types of warlock elemental magic, necromancy/bone magic, demon magic, rules for every type of magic shifters can get from a pact, temporal magic, and that's without even touching standard invocations which has hundreds of spells (not every one of them needs to be converted, but quite a few would). then we get into techno-wizardry, which means you can mix and match just about any effect out there - you're not going to represent that adequately without giving a rather large selection of options to add. never mind magic types added in various rifters. to represent the federation of magic, you're pretty much going to need to represent at least most of those types of magic.

if you want a strongly magic oriented faction that you could represent with a small selection of spells, try something like lemuria or whatever the jungle elf nation is called. heavily magic oriented, but most of them are the same type of magic user, and much of their magic is focused on creating stuff that conventional units will use.

but hey, let's try this a different way: you come up with a list of spells that you feel would let you adequately represent facing an army from tolkeen or lazlo or the federation of magic. sit down and try it. see how much you would need to represent facing an army of sorcerers of a variety of types.

[Shark_Force]

damage spells are one of the weakest tools in the arsenal of a magic user for the most part. there are exceptions, but in general if a magic user is blowing perfectly good actions and PPE to hit you with a lightning bolt, you should take heart in the fact that you are apparently fighting a magic user who is either really stupid or has extremely limited knowledge and their teacher never taught them anything good.

i mean, if you're talking about someone lobbing annihilate at you from a scroll, or a warlock dropping a river of lava on your army, then yeah, that's worth noticing. but honestly, stuff like lightning bolt? count your blessings. if they're in range for a lightning bolt and they didn't do something worse than a lightning bolt, you're quite lucky.

[Bill]

Go write it up, Shark. I think you've adequately beaten us over the head with your arguments.

[Shark_Force]

that's the thing. not everything is equivalent. tolkeen troops may very well be using the exact same laser rifles, even, but they might have a wall of defense device to hide behind, or the ability to create a chasm that they could hide within, or the ability to teleport along a ley line, or the ability to fly, or the ability to teleport bombs at your unit, or the ability to charge into melee combat from underneath you, or the ability to summon dozens of different creatures with different abilities to fight you, or the ability to make your army disorganized, or the ability to make the triggers on your guns stop working, or the ability to mind control groups of people, or the ability to change the weather, or the terrain, and so on and so forth.

you can give it key words as much as you want. magic still has tons of different possible effects to take into consideration.

[The Galactus Kid]

I see a lot of preferences about style in this thread. I would personally be a little disappointed if it is any smaller than 28 mm scale.