No more levels

[lostsoul336]

OK so this just dawned on me. What if we were to get rid of leveling. I know, a little crazy but I was thinking if we got rid of levels then we could instead focus on what the characters actually are doing and level up certain aspects accordingly. We could have them keep track of how many hours they are studying or performing a skill and after "X" amount of hours it "levels up" or they gain the skill at base level. Same thing for stats as well. A person could continuously work out and lift weights and could gain weightlifting or somebody could always run somewhere and gain running. What are your thoughts on this.

[filo_clarke]

It would be great from a realism point of view, but it would be a record-keeping nightmare! Imagine having to keep track of how many feet a character ran in a given day, spread over several weeks to determine if he qualified to get "Running". Or figuring out which books he read, and how much instruction he received from a mentor in order to gain Electrical Engineer?

Problematic...

[say652]

I like levels. Adds that whole game concept in the game.

[flatline]

Levels suck.

We experimented with getting rid of them on several occasions and the results were usually pretty good. If a character wants to improve at something and they work hard to improve it, reward them. If they're really good at something but they don't make any attempt to maintain their proficiency, let them get rusty. If they get too rusty, make part of the penalty permanent.

--flatline

[eliakon]

Level less systems work just fine. But one of the problems with Palladium is that its SO tied to levels, that by the time you have gotten all the level stuff out...your basically either converted to some other level less game system, or made your own system.
Not that there is anything wrong with either of those, but its pretty hard to get the level out of Palladium, and still have much of anything Palladium beyond flavor left.

[lostsoul336]

maybe do a combination thing then. Keep levels as they are but allow them to keep track of and work towards improving things between levels as well to gain extra stuff such as a skill or higher IQ, ME, PS, PE etc

[Cinos]

Just allowing a person to spend time on a given task to become better, in regards to games, is a system that is inherently broken. However, you can relatively easily break down different advancement aspects (Such as improving a skill, attribute, getting new spells / etc) and assign a cost to each aspect, then have players spend EXP for what they want, rather than a tiered level system. It has its own drawbacks, including a lot more book keeping, the ability to create incredibly focused characters that hyper advance very narrow aspects of their character, but it offers more control to the player to advance and build the character they want.

[Shorty Lickens]

Was just bouncing back and forth between Fallout and Elder Scrolls. It occurred to me I'd really like to see a mixed system.

You use skills to improve them.
Adventures/quests/missions get you XP to improve your character level, which in turn grants HP, hit and evade bonus, and new spells/MP, but not new or improved skills.

Many times I hear people coming from other systems (D20, Shadowrun) complain that Palladium doesnt allow a character to specialize and focus on one skill to perform it well. its just a flat percentage rate and grows only with character level.


The problem I see with a no level system is how do you improve HP? SDC? PPE? ISP? To Hit? Dodge? How do the special classes get new abilities, like Cyber Knights?
Do people go off and do physical training? Spiritual mediation? And if so what do they have to do to get improvements? Jog for 6 weeks to get one P.E.? Sleep on a mountain for a year to get 10 HP?

[Alrik Vas]

You give points every game, why not change the type? Instead of "here's 300xp for subduing Captain Pooface", at the end of the session give out 3 character points.

1 point raises a skill by 2%, or adds 1d4 HP
2 points raises a skill by a whole level (aside Hant to Hand)
3 points grants 1d6 Hp or raises your ISP/PPE, or lets you reroll a bad roll during play or grants you

5 points grants a new skill
6 points raises your Hand to Hand

etc, stuff...coming up with this off the top of my head here.

[Damian Magecraft]

You give points every game, why not change the type? Instead of "here's 300xp for subduing Captain Pooface", at the end of the session give out 3 character points.

1 point raises a skill by 2%, or adds 1d4 HP
2 points raises a skill by a whole level (aside Hant to Hand)
3 points grants 1d6 Hp or raises your ISP/PPE, or lets you reroll a bad roll during play or grants you

5 points grants a new skill
6 points raises your Hand to Hand

etc, stuff...coming up with this off the top of my head here.

The problem I have with that kind of set up is the lack of a feeling of progression. PB System is a relatively slow progression to start with (yes; the first few levels zip by quickly but then it plateaus from there) adding in a point buy progression would slow it even further.

[FatherMorpheus]

To bastardize a quote from Dune.
"Many men have tried to create a point system for Rifts."
"They tried and failed?"
"They tried and died!"

It seems that every year or so someone wants to redo Palladium's system into a point based system. Heck, I've given it a go myself. It always results in something which basically redoing everything and trying to find things that fit for most of the game. It is very difficult to do correctly, and gets really silly to do piece meal.

I prefer point based systems to level based systems, I like being able to see incremental growth or being able to focus on one ability and get awesome at it.

One issue to try and overcome would be how Rifts specifically is very front loaded. Someone posted about how a 1st level character in Rifts tends to be fully baked, sure their skills aren't great but they can actually go out and do stuff. Unlike 1st level character's in other games. So you would need a lot of points to start with.

To digress a little bit, Kevin himself has stated that if you don't like something about the game, then change it. If you want to come up with a home brew system to tweak skills or change things here or there. Do it. That is the whole point with how the system was created. A lot of us get hung up on that, and want it to be perfect. I can't really think of any game that is perfect... So role-play, have fun, and make it feel right for your group.

[say652]

I like levels. Its easier to be like ok your 7th level. By pointing it to me anyway. Its not palladium but the mutant bastard son of gurps.
Kill it! Kill it with FIRE!!

[Shorty Lickens]

I dont mind a point system. It works for Shadowrun.

If things feel slow give out 1 point per minor accomplishment, 10 points for the adventure.

[eliakon]

I am not saying that a point system would be impossible. What I am saying is that you would have to totally redo the Magic and Psi systems (since virtually every spell is level dependent). You will have to figure out how you want to handle increases to combat stats (strike, apm, dodge, parry, maneuvers, etc.) that were previously the domain of levels. A special note on classes like the psychics, Mystics, or Continual Mutations, and the like will be needed to help figure out when they will get their new abilities.
Some things would be pretty easy, like skills can just get bought up. Adding new ones using some sort of study/learning program like the various education methods/schools scattered around the various lines would be pretty easy too.
And some stuff like cybernetics, or guns isn't connected to levels in any way, so they would port over to your new system pretty much as is.

[lostsoul336]

I was thinking about a points system myself. I think I am going to just offer to the group that if they want to focus on something they can improve it after X amount of hours of studying/doing it. I already offer them a 10% bonus on skills if they select a skill multiple times. This allows them to get great at a specific skill but also limits the amount of skills they get.

[42dragon]

Maybe I am too old school. But I prefer the level system. Especially to account for out of game time. Just becasue I didn't use computer operation on that last mission, doesn't mean I don't want to get better at it as I gain experience. And in the same vein OK I gained 10 character points or what ever is being used (say roughly a low level worth (2000 to 4000 exp)), I want my entire tool kit (skills, combat, spells, powers, ect...) to get a little better instead of just one or a few aspects of my tool kit.

Example - OK I just upped my prowl and HtoH combat skill. Next adventure we only use computer ops / hacking, a little long range combat, and some running from authorities. I would prefer to be a little better at everything than just specifics. And I never know what specifics will help me with next mission. I could theoretically keep on focusing my character in ways that don't ever actually help in the long run.

[PigLickJF]

One solution to level-based abilities with a points-based system is to just do a hybrid system, something like Mutants & Masterminds uses. Have each level consist of a number of points. You can hand out points one or a few data time, but then when you reach certain point thresholds, you increase by one level.

This way you can also set per-level limits on things if you choose (to prevent people from dumping every point earned into one particular skill, for example.