Gen Con Indy – we leave it up to our Kickstarter backers

[Kevin]

First, let me state that all of us at Palladium Books appreciate our Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter backers more than words can ever express. I meant it with all my heart when I wrote that, “we could not have done this product without YOU.” I meant it when I said, “ALL of us at Palladium Books, Ninja Division, Harmony Gold USA, and every Robotech® fan who enjoys this product owes you – our Kickstarter backers – a debt of gratitude, and that you should take a bow.”

I also meant it when I said I hope you stop by the Palladium booth at Gen Con so we can shake your hand and thank you personally for making this outstanding product possible.

We completely understand being frustrated and disappointed about the long time it has taken to make and release Robotech® RPG Tactics™. You want this product so bad you can taste it. You wanted it last year! You want it now!!

Us too.

If we could have made and shipped Robotech® RPG Tactics™ last Fall as we originally intended, we most certainly would have done so. I have NEVER lied about anticipated release dates. We were working with the limited knowledge and information we had at each announcement. We honestly and completely believed the release dates ourselves. We spent money advertising them because we believed them. That was our intention.

Time and time again, there have been unavoidable delays we did not anticipate.

As I have stated repeatedly, the creation of a product line such as this is new to us. There has been a lot of new territory to navigate. The learning curve has been steep. As this was a highly publicized and successful Kickstarter, that means all 5,000+ of you have been dragged along with us on that turbulent journey.

You are feeling the agony of the delays, the waiting, the unexpected problems that, normally, only we quietly endure behind the scenes ourselves.

We know how frustrated and upset you feel about everything. We feel the same, many times over. There have been many moments when we have felt like tearing our hair out and screaming to the heavens. We all deal with it as best we can.

Some people say there is no way this should have taken so long. Perhaps they could have done all of this faster and without the bumps Palladium has encountered. I don’t know. What I do know is that Palladium Books and Ninja Division could NOT. That is the simple reality. You don’t have to like that answer. I sure don’t. You don’t have to believe it, either. But it is the truth. We have worked tirelessly and diligently to get Robotech® RPG Tactics™ manufactured as fast as we could. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ has been Palladium’s top priority. We have been doing our best and have learned a lot. Wave One is coming off the production line now and will start shipping soon.

Gen Con Indy

Gen Con Indy is on the horizon. It is the largest gaming convention for this hobby in the country. I announced we are planning to bring some Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product to sell. A few hundred of six items: the main box game, four of the expansion packs (Tomahawk/Defender Destroids, Regult Battlepods, Artillery Battlepods, and Glaug Command) and the rule book. That would mean a few hundred people will get these items before most of the 5,200+ Kickstarter backers, and around the same time as the first backers are receiving theirs in the mail.

That was a tough decision for me to make. Here is how and why I made it:

* We will begin shipping Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Kickstarter backers before we leave for Gen Con Indy.

* We will have people continuing to prep, package and ship Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Kickstarter backers while the rest of us are at Gen Con.

* Bringing or not bringing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell at Gen Con will NOT make any difference to shipping to Kickstarter backers. If we were to leave that product at our warehouse instead of taking it to Gen Con, not one single Kickstarter backer would get his or her rewards any sooner.

* Shipping to our Kickstarter backers will take what we estimate to be 3-4 weeks, maybe longer. We are NOT Amazon.com. We can’t ship what we estimate will be 7,000-9,000 packages (those add-ons and exclusives add up) in a few days, even with the upgrades we are making to our shipping system.

* Palladium is NOT shipping to distributors or to retail stores until after all the Wave One Kickstarter backer rewards have left our warehouse.

* We are not selling any Kickstarter exclusives, just the basic items listed above. Only a few hundred people will be able to buy them, as quantities will be limited.

* We have been promising for months that we would have Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product to sell at Gen Con. People have made travel plans, hotel reservations, bought tickets to Gen Con, etc., counting on it being available at Gen Con. We thought we’d have plenty of time to ship to backers before Gen Con, but the product is coming months later than we thought it would. If we could push back Gen Con, we would, but obviously we can’t.

* Gen Con Indy is critical to a successful product launch in the Fall. Having a major game like Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to show, demo and sell is HUGE. It creates buzz, attracts media attention, and is vital to the upcoming big, full scale retail push this Fall. We NEED to do this for the good of the product line. And there is so much more we want to release: more mecha, aircraft and combat vehicles, additional eras of Robotech® and their mecha, and so much more. Isn’t this what we all want?

Though I feared making product available to even just a few hundred gamers at Gen Con, I believe the vast majority of you, our backers, will understand why this is a necessity and be okay with it.

Here’s why. The entire purpose of a Kickstarter is to help fund a product that you, yourself, would love to see made and brought to market. It’s about more than getting cool swag before anyone else. It is about funding something YOU want and believe in. To make a shared dream into reality. That’s why it’s called crowdfunding.

Together, we are making the game we have always wanted. And for other people than just ourselves to enjoy. Making and bringing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to market is the whole point of the Kickstarter, and having it available at Gen Con is a critical part of that effort.

You, our Kickstarter backers, are still getting special rewards for your funding, including those same retail products at below retail prices, plus Kickstarter exclusives that nobody else will ever get, and add-ons that won’t hit retail stores for some time to come. We would only be letting a few hundred people buy (at full retail price) a few items at Gen Con.

I believe we are all working toward the same goal and that most of our Kickstarter backers understand how important Gen Con Indy really is. That our backers might not be thrilled we’re selling a small selection of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ items at Gen Con Indy – but would understand the importance of doing so, and be okay with that. After all, only a few hundred people will join the ELITE Kickstarter backers in getting the product before it hits store shelves. And none of them are getting the goodies and exclusives going to our backers.

Maybe I’m wrong. I’m very sorry if our Gen Con announcement upset, angered or made you feel unappreciated in any way.

You are important to us.

We do respect and appreciate you.

So we are asking for YOUR permission.

We humbly ask, may we please sell some Robotech® RPG Tactics™ at Gen Con Indy? It’s only a few hundred of six items: the main box game, four of the expansion packs (Tomahawk/Defender Destroids, Regult Battlepods, Artillery Battlepods, and Glaug Command) and the rule book.

Post your “Yes” or “No” in the comments on Kickstarter Update #149 by Monday, July 21st. Please try to restrict your comments on that Update to “yes” or “no” votes, so that we can count them more accurately. There are plenty of other places to discuss your opinions about this voting process, the lateness of the rewards, or anything else.

If the majority of you say “no,” we will NOT bring Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Gen Con Indy, except for the purpose of display and demos.

I implore you to say “yes.” Please give us your permission. We believe it would be disastrous not to have the small selection of items I’ve listed available for sale. Not having them will hurt the launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Palladium Books.

Please make your voices heard. If you are totally opposed to us selling Robotech® RPG Tactics™ at Gen Con, tell us. Do NOT sit back and be silent. Spread the word that we want every backer to make their voices heard.

Anyone who does NOT respond by July 21st, we will consider to be a “yes.”

Some may say that it is not fair to count non-responses as “yes” votes. After all, it may well be that more than half of the 5,000+ Kickstarter backers won’t respond at all. But that would say something, too: That the majority of backers aren’t that worried or upset about this. If you are, please let us know. We need to know. All the more reason you need to spread the word and make sure every backer reads Kickstarter Update #149 and makes their opinion known.

But we sincerely want your clear permission, so if it is okay with you, please vote “yes.”

How to vote. Since this really only impacts the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter backers, only you get a say. That means we need YOU to reply via comments on Kickstarter Update #149, where only you backers can post.

* Please vote once.
* Keep it simple. All you need to say is “Yes.” or “No.” If you have more to say, please put it after your “yes” or “no” vote, but please keep it to a minimum to make counting the votes easier.
* Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter backers only.

DEADLINE: July 21, 2014. We need your response by July 21, 2014, so we can adjust our travel plans accordingly. If we’re not bringing Robotech® RPG Tactics™, we need a smaller truck, fewer people at the booth, fewer hotel rooms, some of our volunteers will need to cancel their travel plans, etc. PLEASE vote pronto. Thank you.

I don’t know what else to say. I am very sorry for the long delays despite our best efforts. I apologize for any anguish our plan to sell Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product at Gen Con may have caused you.

All we have ever wanted is to create a great Robotech® battle game and figures that Robotech fans like ourselves would love. I think you’ll find Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to be that product. It is an honor and a privilege to be in a position to bring you that game line. And we have plans for much more. Getting that great game into your hands has been a challenge. We are almost there. Please vote how you think is best. Thank so very much for your support.

With sincere appreciation,

Kevin Siembieda
Publisher and Fan Boy

[Jorel]

the way they are doing the tally they could have just told all the "Yes" people to not vote...and only the "No" people to vote and if the No's can get more than 50% of the backers to respond they would consider not selling at GenCon. So if 2,672 people say "No", then maybe. But otherwise they will do as they please as usual.

[Forar]

During what was previously the most heated issue to arise in this campaign ("Spartangate"), only around 4-5% of the backers chimed in, by the somewhat painstaking name taking I did out of boredom one day.

It'd be shocking if even 25% or 50% spoke up, let alone nearly 100% participation.

It is all but impossible for the answer to be anything but yes, and what's even sadder is that the Yes's seem to have it, but the choice will be forever tainted by knowing it was irrelevant anyway. As someone pointed out in the comments, from that stance why bother asking for Yeses at all? Every non-vote is a yes, so really you just need to know the No's.

What's fascinating are the votes that are essentially "yes, but ________".

And what's to stop backers from changing names/avatars and voting multiple times? I know this *can* be fact checked, but requires extra leg work to be done.

Do backers that signed up under multiple accounts get multiple votes? More legwork if not.

There's a grocery list of things wrong with this, and I find the whole matter highly distasteful.

A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?

[Jorel]

I am someone. You can tell everyone it was me that said it...I don't mind.

[Jorel]

During what was previously the most heated issue to arise in this campaign ("Spartangate"), only around 4-5% of the backers chimed in, by the somewhat painstaking name taking I did out of boredom one day.

It'd be shocking if even 25% or 50% spoke up, let alone nearly 100% participation.

It is all but impossible for the answer to be anything but yes, and what's even sadder is that the Yes's seem to have it, but the choice will be forever tainted by knowing it was irrelevant anyway. As someone pointed out in the comments, from that stance why bother asking for Yeses at all? Every non-vote is a yes, so really you just need to know the No's.

What's fascinating are the votes that are essentially "yes, but ________".

And what's to stop backers from changing names/avatars and voting multiple times? I know this *can* be fact checked, but requires extra leg work to be done.

Do backers that signed up under multiple accounts get multiple votes? More legwork if not.

There's a grocery list of things wrong with this, and I find the whole matter highly distasteful.

A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?

When you change your name it changes for all your posts...I believe, not just the ones after the change.

[Forar]

I could swear there was a period where we had by Kendachi and Mr. Dachi posts showing up at the same time.

[Jorel]

I could swear there was a period where we had by Kendachi and Mr. Dachi posts showing up at the same time.

Go change your name n then go check old posts.

[Jorel]

Well 2 things,

1: hope the yeses realize they are giving up most of their legal rights by saying yes, not me I said no and if PB sells physical product at GenCon before I get mine I will be taking them to court.

2: hope the yeses also realize they have guaranteed the games doom, I just realized something and don't think PB has even thought of it yet, so I'll keep mum and let it be a surprise for them when they discovered they screwed up bad and the only buzz coming out of genCon will be nothing but negative and no sales.

They created this drama and divided the backers further. If it isn't at GenCon they just turned a lot more people against them for nothing.

[jedi078]

Anyone who does NOT respond by July 21st, we will consider to be a “yes.”

Some may say that it is not fair to count non-responses as “yes” votes. After all, it may well be that more than half of the 5,000+ Kickstarter backers won’t respond at all. But that would say something, too: That the majority of backers aren’t that worried or upset about this. If you are, please let us know. We need to know. All the more reason you need to spread the word and make sure every backer reads Kickstarter Update #149 and makes their opinion known.

Personally the only votes that should be counted in this poll are those who post a comment stating yes or no. If someone doesn't vote it shouldn't be counted as a YES or NO so as to achieve the preferred outcome.

[Forar]

That was never going to happen. If they wanted a secure, no nonsense vote, they probably could've done something with the Backerkit. Counting would've been a snap, no debating, no need for some poor intern to wade through a couple thousand comments.

[Jorel]

They are not gonna take the time to read all those comments.

[Jorel]

I think someone like Wayne or Alex will be tasked with that just so they can say it was done.

[MIC]

Ill be at Gen Con as well. Why this has to be so heated, I guess gamer's are an emotional bunch?

Take them to court over what? And really.. I guess you have money to Waste Risk S.

[MIC]

What is your case.. I sure would love to know where you think you have one. Also if you really have a lawyer for this already and this is how he/she is advising you, does he/she wear tennis shoes and chase ambulances around town as well? There is no case for a law suit, and you are blowing smoke in frustration. Get over it already. But just because I am curious, lets say you do sue, but loose, what then? have to cover all the angles there are no sure things. Are you really ready to loose more money and more frustration over a game? Also send me your lawyers info, would love to talk to them. I am in law enforcement, and know the law rather well. Would love to discuss what offense Palladium, Ninja DIV., and Harmony Gold have done that a lawyer would even consider taking this as a case.

[Forar]

Funny, I would assume that showing ones hand by speaking about the particulars of an ongoing or pending piece of litigation would be a bad idea.

[MIC]

Let me Edit and rephrase this..

1: There is no case. It is a kid or individual who is blowing off steam due to his frustration and anger.

2: Who will he sue, Palladium, Harmony Gold, Ninja DIV.? All 3?

3: There is nothing to be gained by being forth coming on what his Suite will be about, it will be public record anyways.

4: You sir are in Canada, what do you know of US law? and honestly are not helping by feeding this person false hope.

5: The proof is in the statements he has made, I read ******** for a living, and this is full of ********. No worries.

[Jorel]

There goes the neighborhood...

[Jorel]

I do believe #4, if not all of those, was directed at Forar...not Rick.

[Lord Malachdrim]

hope the yeses realize they are giving up most of their legal rights by saying yes, not me I said no and if PB sells physical product at GenCon before I get mine I will be taking them to court.

What legal rights? I never saw anything in the kickstarter promising that backers would get their rewards for investing in the development of this new product line first.

[NMI]

Was there anything in the initial pitch for the project that said backers would get their rewards first? As in before any project updates, before the $70k goal was reached, was there any actual statement by Palladium Books or Ninja Division? [N.D. was active on the KS page in the beginning]

[Forar]

4: You sir are in Canada, what do you know of US law?

Probably more than most Americans.

Was there anything in the initial pitch for the project that said backers would get their rewards first? As in before any project updates, before the $70k goal was reached, was there any actual statement by Palladium Books or Ninja Division? [N.D. was active on the KS page in the beginning]

Prepare for Invasion

Plus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.

A reference to the Battle Cry? Perhaps, but they were pushing the notion of backers getting things first all the same, so it shouldn't be surprising that it ended up being a draw for some people. There were definitely some statements regarding how awesome it'd be to get ahold of expansions months before retail, but with 2 waves now and a supposed September retail date, many backers may be lucky if their local stores don't have product on shelves before their boxes make their way through the mail system.

Note: just because all of the boxes have shipped doesn't mean they'll be delivered or in hand in nearly as expedient a fashion as Alliance Distributions (or whomever) will get them out to shops. I think we've all had mail held up in customs or at a post office for a week because Jimmy put his coffee cup over the label...

[TagsPB]

Really Mic your in law enforcement? which country? which state? you do also know that impersonating an officer of the law is illegal too ?

furthermore, when it comes to the law I doubt as an officer you deal with any CPA violations if any, don't plan to lose, my chances of losing are the same as you humming while your nose is plugged.

as to your other questions:

1: a kid, sure whatever, a very old kid to say the least, hell must have been a baby when I was on the front page of the Wall Street Journal about a decade ago or so. but hey i'm a kid according to you

2: My suit will be against Palladium (and Kevin S. as owner), since they are the ones making the choices, on selling at GenCon before delivering or mailing to backers.

You of course know that not one single backers will be mailed before GenCon right....cause if just one is........your suit is dead in the water.

3: not giving away all my secrets, just my intentions so they cannot say no one said anything, I like to give people a chance to correct the error of their ways before they break the law.

Also keep in mind.....people can sue you for sueing Palladium Books

4: I do not live in Canada born and bred in the US of A

5: whatever.[/quote]

[Jefffar]

Plus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.

As long as Palladium doesn't bring the full product line to GenCon, they are meeting that obligation.

[Forar]

Plus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.

As long as Palladium doesn't bring the full product line to GenCon, they are meeting that obligation.

In an 'obeying the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit'/rules lawyer'ing sort of fashion', sure.

Never said it was air tight. NMI asked where some people might have gotten the impression that we'd be getting stuff first before the KS launched, I gave an example.

The infamous Update 125 is MUCH clearer on the matter, though people like to rules lawyer that one too. "Ohhh, but selling isn't the same as being a retailer, despite having a retailer license for the vendor hall..."

[NMI]

Was there anything in the initial pitch for the project that said backers would get their rewards first? As in before any project updates, before the $70k goal was reached, was there any actual statement by Palladium Books or Ninja Division? [N.D. was active on the KS page in the beginning]

Prepare for Invasion

Actually, I was more referring to the an initial pitch on the Kickstarter page for Tactics itself.. Seeing as one could not pledge money for the KS from the PB site.

[Forar]

Was there anything in the initial pitch for the project that said backers would get their rewards first? As in before any project updates, before the $70k goal was reached, was there any actual statement by Palladium Books or Ninja Division? [N.D. was active on the KS page in the beginning]

Prepare for Invasion

Actually, I was more referring to the an initial pitch on the Kickstarter page for Tactics itself.. Seeing as one could not pledge money for the KS from the PB site.

Seems awfully specific. That's an announcement from PB themselves. Why does it need to be on the KS? Why is being able to pledge money a requirement? I can't buy a ticket for Guardians of the Galaxy from a poster in the subway either, but I'm still being informed of several pieces of pertinent information.

[Seto Kaiba]

Gentlemen,

Though I am not a backer, I would like to point out that the applicability of certain laws to promises made on (or in connection with) Kickstarter'd products is something of a woolly area, in no small part because the legal status that applies to backers is that of a donor rather than an investor. Thus far, the only real precedent for broken promises relating to Kickstarter-funded projects is for when "the goods" are simply never delivered at all. There is, as far as I am aware, no evidence to suggest that you will not receive your promised backer rewards in the quantity and types specified, so any attempt to file a suit for not delivering the promised goods to the backers first would be on rather very shaky and uncharted legal ground.

Also, though I am not a lawyer, I'd advise that those members contemplating legal action (idly or otherwise) not go off about it here... because doing so can, if you're hostile enough about it, constitute actionable harassment. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be upset, but threats of litigation should never be aired like this because it can land you in trouble.



That said, I do think that the way this vote is being handled is not even a rough approximation of good faith... since the odds are fundamentally, some would say unassailably, stacked against the backers who want Palladium to honor the promises it made to deliver to the backers first. Doing it the other way around, with all votes presumed to have been "No" and needing x many "Yes" votes would have been more fair and sensible... or at least less likely to have a lot of people howling for blood and skulls.


EDIT: (If it helps, as a SE Michigan local from Palladium's neck of the woods, I'll contact Kevin to volunteer to help with the packing and shipping... maybe make the delay a tiny bit less long.)

[Forar]

What is funny is that, as of the last count I saw someone conduct (just a backer, I believe, so its veracity remains to be seen), there were around 1,250 Yes's and 260 odd No's. 2 days into the vote and the Yes's are half way to being the majority without the 'helping hand', which according to a murmur isn't even real, they just totally wanted to spur the backers into action.

Though if you read some of the comments, it hasn't exactly had the desired effect.

Considering the, ah, somewhat loose relationship this campaign has had with transparency, intentionally manipulating the backers in that fashion is rather reprehensible, but the damage is done.

If nothing else, I'm kind of surprised how many No's there are anyway. Obviously there's a contingent of unhappy folks, but I didn't expect my 4 to 1 estimate to be quite so accurate.

It's definitely a minority, but I do hope they're taking notes here. ~15% of a population isn't something to sneeze at either. Not saying the minority should get their way, just that if 15% of a population that large expressed discontent, it'd be pretty noteworthy.

[rat_bastard]

I did not bid on this and I do not care about robotech but if I kickstartered a new game and I did not get at least a week on non kickstarter people I would be litigious pissed.

[NMI]

I understand everyone's frustration with the various decisions, promises, alleged "lies", timelines, etc... however, the mudslinging, the flatout insulting of either one another and/or Palladium Books, Kevin [and by proxy - Wayne, Alex, Julius & Jeff Burke] has gone on long enough.

You have all had your time to speak your mind on the subject. Before this topic and its twin in the Robotech RPG Tactics forum spiral any further out of control, I am locking both topics.

If you wish to further discuss "the situation", take it elsewhere. Facebook, the Tactics Kickstarter page, any number of fan pages.

If you have a problem with this decision, Palladium Books can be reached at the following:

Palladium Books, Inc.
39074 Webb Court
Westland, MI 48185
Phone: 734-721-2900