As the Marine books draw closer

[Seto Kaiba]

And this one is directed at Seto’s Space Marine/Space Army comments. While that may have been true for Macross, is it still true for Robotech?

You don't see many Navies out there with ranks like "2nd Lieutenant" or "Staff Sergeant" cropping up... and for later works, it's also worth noting that navies are notoriously short on Major Generals too (yes, even that most sought-after variety, the Modern Major General). The rank system in Robotech is an unholy mess, but on balance the majority of ranks appear to be Army rather than Navy. The Army style ranks are what show up in print on several occasions throughout the series as well. Major Generals don't normally get promoted to ranks like Admiral either, in the course of normal affairs, but Rick manages that one somehow. (This would fit with a general assumption that the UEDF and UEEF are space armies as well, and that "Captain (of a ship)" and also "Admiral" are titles (more equivalent to shipmaster and fleetmaster) rather than actual ranks, while the people holding those titles are actually Generals, as in the OSM.

From the series, it doesn’t feel like that Space Amy = Spacy feel survived, and it really does feel like Space Navy = Spacy instead, [...]

Except that in the series and in the line art, there are cases where we clearly see that the Destroids are also marked with "UN SPACY". You don't usually find squadrons of tanks operating from Navy ships either. (Which isn't counting landing craft...)

For the record, Destoids are SUPPOSED to be slabs and slabs of armour as opposed to mobility saving their bacon.

Quite so... in fact, the RT version does some strange stuff with this. OSM-ly, the Tomahawk is supposed to have slightly better armor (in terms of overall defensive capability) than a VF-1, and the Monster's supposed to have been as heavy as it was because it was armored to resist a nuclear strike, rather than having the lightest possible armor because the machine itself was too heavy.

[Chris0013]

Perfect book to use the Heavy Assault Battloid from RotM 2nd ed.

[mech798]

I've always thought the rank system can be explained by teh problems in merging the various militaries and not wanting to lose potential flag positions. You have never seen a fight until someone realizes that a reorg may cut the number of open Colonel slots from 8 to 5.

For those who have never been in the military, bTW, this is because a lot of services have the "up or out" system-- if you don't get promoted within a limited number of tries or years, you're likely going to be unable to continue your military career. The problem is, especially at the higher ranks is that people tend to hang on to them longer and so there may not an open position. This can lead to peacetime militaries having an absolutely huge number of "Flag officers."

[Seto Kaiba]

I've always thought the rank system can be explained by teh problems in merging the various militaries and not wanting to lose potential flag positions. You have never seen a fight until someone realizes that a reorg may cut the number of open Colonel slots from 8 to 5.

That's the thing... most national militaries have roughly equivalent rank systems, barring the occasional cultural oddity like Japan (who have only three grades of general because the number 4 is unlucky). There's usually at least some degree of equivalency, either by common origin or common convention.

Robotech's rank system is principally army ranks, except for a few instances that are out in left field... some of which are Navy, and at least one of which is a non-conventional Army style rank.

(The most likely culprit here is that someone in the original translation/adaptation team was using an obsolete Japanese-English dictionary that used an odd, archaic translation of the first three officer grades into "Acting Sublieutenant", "Sublieutenant", and "Lieutenant" instead of 2LT/1LT/CPT or ENS/LTJG/LT. Hence, they ended up assigning it as three grades of Army style lieutenant in an effort to make sense of it all... a similar gaffe can be seen in the Viz Manga release of the official Macross II manga.)

[Seto Kaiba]

And similarly Seto, I must not have been clear. While the UN SPacy stickers are still present because the Robotech series used the Macross OSM, I meant that the feel of a Space Army didn't come through all that well. It really did seem like more of a navy than an Army, even when various ranks such as you mentioned cropped up here and there.

Really? Because you don't often find Navy pilots driving tanks all of the sudden... Hikaru/Rick switches to using destroids at one point. VFs are as much an armored infantry unit as they are aviators. Apart from one or two Navy ranks that crop up, pretty much everything smacks of Army.

[rem1093]

And similarly Seto, I must not have been clear. While the UN SPacy stickers are still present because the Robotech series used the Macross OSM, I meant that the feel of a Space Army didn't come through all that well. It really did seem like more of a navy than an Army, even when various ranks such as you mentioned cropped up here and there.

Really? Because you don't often find Navy pilots driving tanks all of the sudden... Hikaru/Rick switches to using destroids at one point. VFs are as much an armored infantry unit as they are aviators. Apart from one or two Navy ranks that crop up, pretty much everything smacks of Army.

That also fits for the Marines as well. They also have more of an Army based ranking, (Major, Colonel, General). As for for the VT's, as infantry unit's, well that screams Marine. Because as far as I can find, if anybody can find otherwise say so, only the Marines send their Aviators, to any form of MCT (Marine Combat training), after basic. Some aviators even do FAC work in infantry unit.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmm...now that point I will readily concede, with a proviso (seriously, you HAD to know that was coming, right?! ): The UN Spacy and UN Army appear to be using the same gear, thus we apparently have Destroids labeled with both.

Well, that's the OSM at work for ya... the UN Spacy and UN Army both use destroids, though the UN Spacy's using them for ship defense, and the UN Army's using them for actual land warfare. Kind of a different profile for operations there.

As such, if it's used by a United Nations Space Navy and a United Nations Space/Ground Army, then why shouldn't it be possible for Rick to have training in both?

United Nations what? There's no United Nations in either version. If we're talking a setting where the Spacy really means "Space Navy", instead of "Space Army", then we'd expect the Navy to leave the ground combat specialist hardware to the gropos, so it wouldn't make much sense for Hikaru/Rick to have training in a purely land warfare combat unit like the Spartan. On the other hand, if it is a Space Army, then it makes a certain amount of sense.

More than that, if Max really does originate in the UN Marines (limited to Robotech...I think...I get so confuse don this issue currently!), then his prior training comes into play here, and has little to nothing to do with his later retraining as a variable fighter pilot.

IIRC, the RT RPG claims most of the Macross Saga's aviators are really marines, despite keeping the OSM's UN Spacy markings on the VF-1 etc., so there's nothing to really indicate that they were marines. Macross does have a few cases of UN Spacy aviators switching to destroids or from destroids on the fly, but that's a setting where the UN Spacy is effectively an Army and operates like infantry (VFs are organized into Platoons, even).

[ShadowLogan]

IIRC, the RT RPG claims most of the Macross Saga's aviators are really marines, despite keeping the OSM's UN Spacy markings on the VF-1 etc., so there's nothing to really indicate that they were marines.

Nothing in the 85ep at all to support the existence of marines, dialogue points to the existence of the Army only. There are naval officer ranks tossed in there to be sure, but nothing that exclusively points to Marines IMHO, and everything for the "Army" and "Navy".

so it wouldn't make much sense for Hikaru/Rick to have training in a purely land warfare combat unit like the Spartan.

The Spartan (or even just a common general LWCU) might be used as part of the training program for VT pilots (and Destroid) before they get into the more complex and costly platforms. Ground vehicle training might not have a parallel here, but air/aerospace-craft training does.

By the RPG rules it would be possible for Rick to use his VF piloting skill to operate non-transformable battloids at reduced skill level (the reverse is also true, a nt-B can pilot a VT in Battloid mode). At the very least it suggests the controls are pretty standard between them with some slight differences (penalty and response time), so Rick (and others) need not be trained in Destroid use as the previous edition and in fact none of the VF pilots in the Macross Saga SB are per their listed skills of note.

[Seto Kaiba]

Nothing in the 85ep at all to support the existence of marines, dialogue points to the existence of the Army only.

True enough... though the UN Spacy Marines and UN Marines didn't appear in Macross in any identifiable way until Macross II. There are a lot of unexplained uniform variations that might be marines, and it's a development consistent with the OSM, and that seems to be Tommy's preferred resource.

The Spartan (or even just a common general LWCU) might be used as part of the training program for VT pilots (and Destroid) before they get into the more complex and costly platforms. Ground vehicle training might not have a parallel here, but air/aerospace-craft training does.

Might be... but doesn't actually appear to be. The Spartan's cockpit is much different from a VF-1, and we see in Hikaru/Rick's training montage that his training took place aboard an actual VF-1.

[silvermoon383]

So you're telling me that it's unfeasible that a military pilot living in a post-apocalyptic world where the population has been reduced to a fraction of what it once was wouldn't have received additional training in other mecha platforms? I'm pretty sure that such a thing would be pretty common considering the massive restructuring the military would've had in the gap between Force of Arms and Reconstruction Blues.

[ShadowLogan]

Might be... but doesn't actually appear to be. The Spartan's cockpit is much different from a VF-1, and we see in Hikaru/Rick's training montage that his training took place aboard an actual VF-1.

Re: Spartan cockpit. Perhaps, perhaps not. Cockpits do change in layout, even among cars. So the controls may all be there, they just may be located differently, but you wouldn't stop knowing or be unable to operate a vehicle under those conditions. Transitory trainers are certainly par for the course with aerospace-craft (including military fighter jets) before one would even get into a "trainer" version of the platform you are going into. Given the likely cost and complexity of mecha, it would make sense to have transitional units as part of training programs.

Re: Training Montage. Given that it is almost certainly not everything that was covered in training...

[Seto Kaiba]

So you're telling me that it's unfeasible that a military pilot living in a post-apocalyptic world where the population has been reduced to a fraction of what it once was wouldn't have received additional training in other mecha platforms?

Considering that the population in need of protection has also been greatly reduced, and the only mecha the military has available are those that were aboard one ship when things went to hell... I can't see it being the military's top priority. All the same, it's less of an issue if you're dealing with a military branch of service that operates as an Army, with aviators AND armored cavalry forces together.

Re: Spartan cockpit. Perhaps, perhaps not. Cockpits do change in layout, even among cars.

There is no indication that any cockpit layout was ever changed between any mecha in Robotech. The only instance in the RPG is the mistaken use of the DYRL cockpit art in the RPG, something that is not part of Robotech at all.

Re: Training Montage. Given that it is almost certainly not everything that was covered in training...

Until you can provide proof of some kind that they didn't just train using the vehicles they were going to be expected to fight in... the logical assumption remains that they used VFs for pilot training, the same way it's done in the OSM and the greater Macross universe.

[glitterboy2098]

he meant that, for example, a ferrari and a yugo both have the same instruments and controls, just in different places. so if you know how to drive one, you can drive the other. even cars from the same manufacturer, but different models, may have instruments and secondary controls in different places.

earth mecha are likely the same.. their controls would work the same and use the same instruments and core programs, so that if you can pilot a battloid mode VF-1 you could get into a Spartan cockpit and know how to operate it with only a little extra time to figure out the different instrument layout.

[Seto Kaiba]

he meant that, for example, a ferrari and a yugo both have the same instruments and controls, just in different places. so if you know how to drive one, you can drive the other. even cars from the same manufacturer, but different models, may have instruments and secondary controls in different places.

earth mecha are likely the same.. [...]

WRT the actual designs seen in the series and the line art for same, this doesn't appear to be the case for the mecha that appear in Robotech. Bear ye in mind, the car analogy is a faulty one because the controls to actually drive a car are pretty much standard the world over. It's only minor or secondary feature content we see vary among lines or brands, like the position of the headlamp switch or wiper controls. As I see it, this's a difference in control configuration and operating method that's more in line with trying to switch from driving a sportscar to driving a main battle tank. In theory, the principles are similar enough that basic experience as a car driver would let you not make a complete arse of yourself in the tank, but the controls, the handling, the capabilties, and the feature content are all radically different and would incur a rather sharp learning curve to operate safely.

Just look at the control differences between the TV series Valkyrie, Spartas, and Alpha. There's not much in the way of commonality there, particularly with the "middle child".

Now, if we were talking Macross circa 2010+, I could readily agree with you because the subsequent generations of mecha developed after the first space war DID standardize controls to a great extent, which makes it easy for a pilot trained on one fighter (say, a VF-17 or VF-25) to hop into the cockpit of a different fighter altogether (say, a VF-19 or VF-171) and fight effectively with minimal adjustment (my examples here do appear in their respective series... Docker and Alto Saotome respectively).

[ShadowLogan]

There is no indication that any cockpit layout was ever changed between any mecha in Robotech. The only instance in the RPG is the mistaken use of the DYRL cockpit art in the RPG, something that is not part of Robotech at all.

What glitterboy2098 said. The cockpits between the various mecha are going to use standardized controls for certain functions, though the placement may differ between models and types.

Until you can provide proof of some kind that they didn't just train using the vehicles they were going to be expected to fight in... the logical assumption remains that they used VFs for pilot training, the same way it's done in the OSM and the greater Macross universe.

Real life precedents. The logical assumption would be that they follow a similar model to real life training practices for highly complex and expensive hardware like one can see with aircraft (which includes military) and spacecraft. I see no reason that RT would be any different.

[Seto Kaiba]

What glitterboy2098 said. The cockpits between the various mecha are going to use standardized controls for certain functions, though the placement may differ between models and types.

You can repeat it... but the evidence of the animation and line art doesn't support it any more than it did when glitterboy2098 said it.

Real life precedents.

May not apply in a setting with transforming robots, or in a situation where the number of available mecha for training purposes is extremely small... like on a starship on the far side of the solar system with no support of any kind.

The logical assumption would be that they follow a similar model to real life training practices for highly complex and expensive hardware like one can see with aircraft (which includes military) and spacecraft. I see no reason that RT would be any different.

Under normal circumstances, perhaps... unless the sophisticated simulators of the kind we see in RT2 are in play.

[ShadowLogan]

You can repeat it... but the evidence of the animation and line art doesn't support it any more than it did when glitterboy2098 said it.

So with each Destroid and VT they reinvent the wheel so to speak? That seems highly unlikely. It is more likely they use a standardized interface, though visually and placement wise there may be differences.

May not apply in a setting with transforming robots, or in a situation where the number of available mecha for training purposes is extremely small... like on a starship on the far side of the solar system with no support of any kind

Having started from Macross Island though, they may have a few units that are dedicated for training purposes, unlike the VT-1D.

Under normal circumstances, perhaps... unless the sophisticated simulators of the kind we see in RT2 are in play.

Even with simulators you are going to want something that can be more realistic. Look at Max and Karen's A/B test flight in RT2, they could have simply done it in simulations to base their choices on, but they (UEEF) still found using the actual hardware was necessary.

[Seto Kaiba]

So with each Destroid and VT they reinvent the wheel so to speak? That seems highly unlikely.

Yet, within Robotech, that appears to be EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. There is practically zero common cockpit design between mecha in that series. That's only to be expected, though, since the Robotech version of events makes the Destroid development program into something entirely separate from the VF-1's development. Then there's the artistic differences brought about by the way Robotech is basically an animated Frankenstein's monster stitched together from unrelated parts, so inter-saga consistency is pretty much nonexistent.

Having started from Macross Island though, they may have a few units that are dedicated for training purposes, unlike the VT-1D.

Okay, show us one. I'll wait.

(OSMly, there weren't any... it was early days for the VF-1, and a dedicated trainer had yet to be adopted... and indeed, wouldn't be until later.)

[ShadowLogan]

There is practically zero common cockpit design between mecha in that series

Not true. They still use the same type of interfaces (switches, joysticks, levers, buttons, monitors, etc), even in RT. So no they did not re-invent the wheel. Placement and aesthetics DO differ though, but the type of interface and function does not appear to have changed.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not true. They still use the same type of interfaces (switches, joysticks, levers, buttons, monitors, etc), even in RT. So no they did not re-invent the wheel.

Yes, of course... they all use buttons, so therefore the controls are exactly the same.

For pity's sake, they might all use buttons but you won't find any commonality in layout or apparent function between 99% of them. Hell, there's no clear indication of how the hover tank is even controlled, because its controls don't appear to actually exist beyond a bicycle-style set of handlebars. There's no evidence of any common control set up. Even shared functions are done separate ways. Like the VF-1's controls for mode changing vs. the Alpha's. The VF-1 has a set of labeled sliders on one side of its master display, while the Alpha's is a throttle-style lever on the right side of the cockpit that actually requires the pilot to take his hand off the stick to operate.

The Spartan vs. the VF-1... well, if you actually look at the art instead of just asserting that it must be so, it's hard to find the idea that the controls have much in common anything other than laughable.

[eliakon]

Not true. They still use the same type of interfaces (switches, joysticks, levers, buttons, monitors, etc), even in RT. So no they did not re-invent the wheel.

Yes, of course... they all use buttons, so therefore the controls are exactly the same.

For pity's sake, they might all use buttons but you won't find any commonality in layout or apparent function between 99% of them. Hell, there's no clear indication of how the hover tank is even controlled, because its controls don't appear to actually exist beyond a bicycle-style set of handlebars. There's no evidence of any common control set up. Even shared functions are done separate ways. Like the VF-1's controls for mode changing vs. the Alpha's. The VF-1 has a set of labeled sliders on one side of its master display, while the Alpha's is a throttle-style lever on the right side of the cockpit that actually requires the pilot to take his hand off the stick to operate.

The Spartan vs. the VF-1... well, if you actually look at the art instead of just asserting that it must be so, it's hard to find the idea that the controls have much in common anything other than laughable.

Since I have no idea I will ask.
IS there official art of the cockpits/controls of the various vehicles?

[Seto Kaiba]

IS there official art of the cockpits/controls of the various vehicles?

Many, but not all... there is particularly detailed line art for the cockpits of the VF-1 (duh), the MBR-07-Mk.II Spartan destroid (the bone of contention), the HWR-00-Mk.II Monster, as well as the Regult and Glaug. Also available is reasonably detailed art of the AFC-01 Legioss (RT Alpha) and AB-01 TLEAD (Beta) cockpits. Little art exists, period, for the Spartas, Logan, and Auroran (AGACs).

The RPG actually used, amusingly, the wrong art for the VF-1's cockpit in both editions... they used the one seen in Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which is much simpler and more streamlined than the overcomplicated mess seen in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross. In the Macross universe, that exists as a later production block cockpit variation borrowed from the VF-4's development, but never appeared in Robotech.

For the sake of comparison, this is the cockpit of the MBR-07-Mk.II Spartan as compared to the VF-1 Valkyrie battroid mode cockpit.

(Note that the Spartan has roughly twice as many foot pedals, a periscope style targeting system, and a number of other features not present on the VF-1 cockpit, while the VF-1 cockpit is comparatively much simpler.)

[eliakon]

So.....
They are both implausibly complicated techno-fetishist dreams with more controls that could possibly be handled by a two armed species.
So...
Err, I forgot the point now

[Seto Kaiba]

So.....
They are both implausibly complicated techno-fetishist dreams with more controls that could possibly be handled by a two armed species.

Now you know why Macross's mechanical designers redid the cockpits into something much simpler for subsequent titles.

The obvious catch in ShadowLogan's argument is that each individual component show came up with a completely different control layout for its own mecha... so there's practically zero commonality between them, which may be used as an argument to justify why each has its own MECT. (Whereas, the common layout for controls in a Macross game could be used to boil it down to just TWO MECT classes for all VFs... MECT: Valkyrie and MECT: Advanced Valkyrie.)

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, of course... they all use buttons, so therefore the controls are exactly the same.

NOT what I am getting at.

The cockpits may be laid out differently, but they do appear to use a common interface standard where control-XYZ type will do the same thing between all different types of Battloids (ex, footpedals control the feet and joysticks control the arms), even though they might look different.

[jaymz]

I think the two images he shared above show that it isn't as cut and dried as you may think.

[Seto Kaiba]

The cockpits may be laid out differently, but they do appear to use a common interface standard where control-XYZ type will do the same thing between all different types of Battloids [...]

I would cite the Spartas, and presumably by extension all other Southern Cross battloids, as a point of significant and official contradiction to your assertion. They share NONE of the common interface control types present in the VF-1 or Alpha.

[Jefffar]

Given the changes in control and cockpit design between generations of fighter aircraft, the changes in the three Generations of Robotech make some sense.

[Seto Kaiba]

Given the changes in control and cockpit design between generations of fighter aircraft, the changes in the three Generations of Robotech make some sense.

's far as the line art goes, the only real commonality between generations appears to be that, in fighter mode, each generation's transformable fighter still uses a traditional center stick and throttle configuration. Beyond that... well... it's kind of a mess. Then again, looking at the cockpit of the Spartas, I'm not entirely sure the bloody thing has any controls at all.

[guardiandashi]

Given the changes in control and cockpit design between generations of fighter aircraft, the changes in the three Generations of Robotech make some sense.

's far as the line art goes, the only real commonality between generations appears to be that, in fighter mode, each generation's transformable fighter still uses a traditional center stick and throttle configuration. Beyond that... well... it's kind of a mess. Then again, looking at the cockpit of the Spartas, I'm not entirely sure the bloody thing has any controls at all.

actually not all of them use a center stick either, altho a lot do, of course the macross II units use a side stick instead of the center one.

[Seto Kaiba]

actually not all of them use a center stick either, altho a lot do, of course the macross II units use a side stick instead of the center one.

Eh... that's Macross II: Lovers Again, though.

That has literally nothing to do with Robotech, being that it's a sequel to the first Macross movie, a proper alternate universe to Macross's main timeline, and its designs are further developments of the ones from the aforementioned 1984 feature film (the aforementioned simpler cockpit design) rather than what was in the original Macross TV series.

[ShadowLogan]

I would cite the Spartas, and presumably by extension all other Southern Cross battloids, as a point of significant and official contradiction to your assertion. They share NONE of the common interface control types present in the VF-1 or Alpha.

Only if you are too rigid in your assessment of the Spartas cockpit...

Then again, looking at the cockpit of the Spartas, I'm not entirely sure the bloody thing has any controls at all.

The controls are there. The central section of the yoke has buttons/switches (Dana and Louie are both shown operating controls from here) and a trio of displays (possibly 1-2 more). Even the handlebars appear to have controls on them, and could even function as joysticks (horizontal orientation as opposed to vertical seen on the Logan, Alpha, Beta, and VF-1) and throttle/break control.

the only real commonality between generations appears to be that, in fighter mode, each generation's transformable fighter still uses a traditional center stick and throttle configuration.

Actually there is more commonality that you want to see. Both the Logan and Alpha cockpits can be shown to have similar joysticks to either side that can also be seen in the VF-1 cockpit, style is different but still present. The Spartas and Beta may combine those with the center stick/throttle. Off-hand I don't recall the AGAC cockpit to well to say one-way or the other.

[Seto Kaiba]

Only if you are too rigid in your assessment of the Spartas cockpit...

If by "are too rigid" you mean "actually bothered to look at it", then yes... because there honestly aren't that many controls there. Compared to the designs that preceded and followed it, it's so spartan you've honestly got to wonder how ANYTHING works. Of course, the other designs have documented line art that shows the functions of the various controls. There's no real indication of how the vehicle is controlled in any mode but tank... there doesn't appear to be any setup for directly controlling the limbs, or any clear control setup for transformation, or anything else for that matter. Apart from an apparent thumb-trigger for the main mount, there's little in the way of consistent presentation there.

Actually there is more commonality that you want to see. Both the Logan and Alpha cockpits can be shown to have similar joysticks to either side that can also be seen in the VF-1 cockpit, style is different but still present. The Spartas and Beta may combine those with the center stick/throttle. Off-hand I don't recall the AGAC cockpit to well to say one-way or the other.

Not as similar as you think... but I suppose my greater access to the production materials from the individual shows gives me a different perspective. As far as the entirely superficial design similarities go, the side sticks for the limbs on the VF-1 and Alpha are radically different in implementation... the latter's only have a single trigger and lack any setup for precision limb control the way the VF-1's do. The TLEAD's controls are radically different as well, but at least there's a vague indication of how the bloody thing steers (while what the Spartas has is rigidly immobile).

I'll say it again for your benefit... there is very little case for ANY commonality of control between any two mecha in Robotech based on the production line art.

[ShadowLogan]

If by "are too rigid" you mean "actually bothered to look at it", then yes... because there honestly aren't that many controls there. Compared to the designs that preceded and followed it, it's so spartan you've honestly got to wonder how ANYTHING works.

I have looked at it. Questions you may want to consider:
-how many controls are actually necessary
-if controls are mulch-functional based on the actual mode the mecha is in at the moment
-degree of automation present
-how much influence might Zentraedi designs have had on future (UEDF:ASC, UEEF) mecha given their cockpits are shown to be light on controls compared to UEDF: RDF as an in-universe explanation.

there is very little case for ANY commonality of control between any two mecha in Robotech based on the production line art.

I disagree. The mere fact there are superficial similarities would point to a commonality of controls between them from a pilot POV, though underneath that there could be differences at the engineering level but not the operator/pilot level. One can see a similar phenomena with the various GUI OS (windows, Apple, Linux flavors, etc).

[Seto Kaiba]

I have looked at it. Questions you may want to consider:
-how many controls are actually necessary

A heck of a lot more than are actually present... especially if you intend to... y'know... steer. Or aim. Or use the limbs in any precision manner.

-if controls are mulch-functional based on the actual mode the mecha is in at the moment

You're still coming up short on actual controls though.

-degree of automation present

Presumably no more or less than any other variable mecha had... esp. since the Spartas' and so on are lower tech than the Alphas.

-how much influence might Zentraedi designs have had on future (UEDF:ASC, UEEF) mecha given their cockpits are shown to be light on controls compared to UEDF: RDF as an in-universe explanation.

That'd explain the considerable disregard the design has for the life and comfort of the pilot... but not much else. Also, the Zentradi cockpits are actually pretty control-dense if you look to the line art, or the scenes where Hikaru/Rick, Misa/Lisa, etc. are trying to operate a Regult.

I disagree. The mere fact there are superficial similarities would point to a commonality of controls between them from a pilot POV, though underneath that there could be differences at the engineering level but not the operator/pilot level.

Your disagreement is entirely irrelevant, the facts are what they are. It helps that the creators of the mecha labeled their controls a lot of the time.

[Seto Kaiba]

- Throttle controls on the left hand side, dual...check and check...

's an assumption, not a fact, on the Spartan's part.

- Foot peddles on the floor in a position appropriate for a fully seated back position...check and check...

FOUR pedals for the Spartan... two for the Valkyrie.

- Twin Hand controls in a position far, far too forward to make sense...check and check...

You may have a bad picture of the spatial relationships involved... those joysticks aren't as far forward as you think on the Spartan, and the ones on the Valkyrie are within comfortable reach as well. (The Valkyrie's cockpit is NOT roomy.)

- HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick) controls...check and...checkish...those Valkyries are far too limited really...

MIA in both cases... Macross designs didn't get true HOTAS controls until DYRL. Most controls are on consoles in front of the pilot, or above, or to one side... it's a mess.

I was going to speculate on what certain controls might be for, but for simply listing purposes, that is irrelevant really.

Unnecessary too... between the various labeled diagrams and tech manuals, there's not any real lack of clarity about what the VF-1's controls are.

Either way, those two images aren't showing how different the cockpits are, but instead how similar they are really.

Similarity in the most basic aspects of the layout does not translate into similarity of the detailed layout or function.

The differences are mainly covered by their separate roles, different design lineages, and the fact that the Valkyrie design came after the Destroid design, allowing the former to benefit from the latter's development cycle.

This isn't true for RT... the Valkyrie and Destroid were parallel programs there, and rivals at that.

The same obviously goes for variable mecha in general, as depicted by the Logan and Spartas. I do find it a bit strange that the Alpha and Beta's cockpits went back to being quite to complicated again, and figure that to be because Mospeada was apparently intended to copy a great deal of what made Marcoss work to well, and complicated cockpits are what we ended up with.

The Southern Cross mecha cockpits are pretty austere, because the creators never went into any detail. That's why there's very little indication of how anything in them works... their controls are a complete mystery. MOSPEADA had creators who thought things out... though not to the completely over-the-top level Macross's did.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, you have said several times that the Zor are really the same as the humans in ASC's OSM. Since they use full up mental control in their mecha, maybe that was just a very, very advanced version of what the less advanced human's in Glorie were using, and thus they didn't really need as many controls as we would expect?

Er... you may be misremembering what I said. The Zor were, yes, intended to be temporally displaced humans who settled Glorie, had their own nuclear winter, and fled that planet too, Megazone 23-style (sort of). Their Bioroids aren't really true "mental" control. The mecha is just redirecting selected impulses from the pilot's motor nerves.

There's nothing I've yet found to suggest that Glorie's Southern Cross Army had access to anything on that scale, technologically. If they did, they wouldn't have needed an optical targeting assist system.

Since you are more aware of this than I, just how much time passed between the first more or less functional prototype of a Destroid and the first practical variable fighter prototypes then?

Development started about five months apart in the Robotech 'verse... and were rival programs per "From the Stars".

Development of destroids in Macross started in 2001, and the first test unit rolled out in December of that year. It took three more years for the first prototype VF to be produced... though those two programs were not rivals, but complimentary developments which began at the same time.

However, are we certain that the Destroid has four separate peddles, and not two peddles broken down into two parts for some reason?

Pretty darn sure, yes... I apologize for the not-exactly-huge size of the art I linked, but it's what was on hand at the time.

(And I can't for the life of me figure out why it would need four peddles...

That makes two of us.

Do...we have a different view of what HOTAS means chief? Cause the Spartan has at least a dozen candidates for this role, while the Valkyrie has at least one on the left hand control stick, and possibly two.

Officially, HOTAS is a design principle where the pilot can access vital systems using controls placed directly onto the throttle lever and stick... minimizing the need for the pilot to remove his hands from either to manipulate switches in the cockpit during flight. The way that both the VF-1 and Alpha handle transformation, for instance, pretty thoroughly breaks the notion that they're HOTAS setups... the VF-1 needs the pilot to use his left hand to manipulate the bank of sliders, and the Alpha needs the pilot to use his right hand to manipulate a second, throttle-like mode selector opposite the throttle.

(though it certainly seems to have enough additional controls anyhow, doesn't it?), while the former needs two different control setups for its "two" different modes (I say two since it apparently more or less functions like a jet when its in Gerwalk...though how I couldn't say really...)

The Destroids need specialist controls for their various specialist roles... Tomahawks need to be able to coordinate fire, switch between a huge number of weapons on the fly, prioritize a selection of ground targets, and deal with both direct and indirect-fire munitions. Defenders and Phalanxes need to cope with their various anti-aircraft functions, some of which include using radars as direct attack weapons, and coordinating anti-air intercept operations. Your Monsters need to focus on ordinance delivery at range... and Spartans need to focus both upon brawling AND ranged combat with direct and non-direct weapons.

Either way, it isn't unrealistic to allow a pilot trained in one to operate the other with penalties, nor is it unrealistic to allow a trained variable fighter pilot to cross train in a mecha that was available aboard the SDF-1 for the entire trip from Pluto's orbit to Earth.

Pretty unrealistic to me, since their controls are so radically different. This is less an issue where Macross is concerned, because of the aforementioned control refinements that never occur in Robotech.

And finally, I have to ask this, since I only noted it a while ago. I mentioned the United Nations Spacy Navy and United Nations Space/Ground Army, and you said there wasn't any United Nations at all...then what did the UN in UN Spacy stand for originally, and what would it have stood for in Robotech alternate to the United Nations? I don't understand this one at all chief.

The painfully long and detailed explanation of this has been mercilessly abbreviated for your reading convenience.

The "UN" is short for "Unity" (though some translations have used "Unified" or "Unification") with respect to the government and military. It's a contrived acronym, since the UN Gov't was actually founded by the United Nations in the Macross-verse. It was the United Nations that organized investigation of the crashed alien ship, and framed the plan for the unified Earth government in response to the idea of coping with an alien invasion. The UN (Unity) Government was formally inaugurated in January 2001, which also marked the end, both for the United Nations as an organization, and for its brief role as a transitional gov't which functioned as a provisional Unity Government before the genuine article went live in 2001.

UN is just shorthand, the full name of the government would be the Earth Unity Government (or Earth Unified Government). They dropped the "Earth" most of the time, and added that "New" when the government was reformed in the 2050s to better cope with the way they'd expanded into space. (Which is why the government from Macross Frontier is the New Unity Government and the military is the New UN Spacy.)

Robotech based its official timeline off the Macross one, so a lot of the basic events are the same... but the government's formal name is, according to the timeline on Robotech.com, the "United Nations of Earth" Government. From their early logo, it looks a great deal like it really is just the United Nations assuming control over the world. United Earth Government is an abbreviation (initially). It looks like it may have been formally renamed to just the United Earth Government after the annihilation of Earth's surface.

[ShadowLogan]

This isn't true for RT... the Valkyrie and Destroid were parallel programs there, and rivals at that.

That does not mean they can't have shared technology unknowningly (or via intermediaries) or arrived at the same solutions to problems. Especially if they started from the same engineering example(s) that might have been onboard the SDF-1 when it crashed.

A heck of a lot more than are actually present... especially if you intend to... y'know... steer. Or aim. Or use the limbs in any precision manner.

I disagree. That is where things like automation (AI) can be a factor or even control combo (keyboard shortcuts, like ALT+F4, or CTRL+C/V/X/Z). It's also possible that some functions are touch screen based instead of having a physical control (just look at Cell Phone design over the past 12years or so).

Presumably no more or less than any other variable mecha had... esp. since the Spartas' and so on are lower tech than the Alphas.

But you can't be sure. An increase in automated functionality could be done. When Rick borrows the Spartan the officer in charge mentions being short of qualified pilots. Something like that could push for greater automation to be present so that a wider candidate pool is available.

Also, the Zentradi cockpits are actually pretty control-dense if you look to the line art, or the scenes where Hikaru/Rick, Misa/Lisa, etc. are trying to operate a Regult.

I did look at the lineart, the controls do look spartan in comparision to the UEDF:RDF mecha IMHO.

Your disagreement is entirely irrelevant, the facts are what they are. It helps that the creators of the mecha labeled their controls a lot of the time.

And the facts are also that pilots are able to successfully pilot their mecha even w/their "spartan" controls.

In any case I think we are drifting off topic here.

The same obviously goes for variable mecha in general, as depicted by the Logan and Spartas. I do find it a bit strange that the Alpha and Beta's cockpits went back to being quite to complicated again,

The Logan cockpit is pretty dense, though unlike the VF-1 it is more centrally placed instead of wraparound like the VF-1 f/g mode.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah, my bad. I thought that the Zor were, as noted, temporally displace,d but were instead some sort of colony mission or something. I hadn't realized they were form Glorie originally, left and returned like that, though now I seem to recall you mentioning that in one thread or another. Were the Zor originally from Earth too, or are they truly human like aliens then, like the Robotech Masters appear to be?

The Zor were human colonists sent to settle Glorie, who were temporally displaced due to an unexplained incident with their faster-than-light drive. They settled Glorie in the past, had a good long run as a civilization, had an apocalyptic war that forced them to abandon Glorie to flee into space until the planet recovered. Ironically, humans found Glorie before the Zor got back and started using terraforming tech to fix it up... then got caught by the returning Zor, who didn't recognize the humans as their ancestors. They were human, they're less so by the time they encounter humanity again...

So in Macross the VF had three years or so to "learn" form their co-developing program, while in Robotech they have once again screwed up in shortening that time difference to the point of being unreasonable.

Well, Robotech's timeline was assembled in a rather haphazard fashion, being that they borrowed most of it from Macross and just tried to tweak the proper nouns and various other details.

Also, just because they were rival programs doesn't mean they didn't share technology and techniques.

I can't find anything that indicates that they did, within Robotech...

BTW, the image is fine, it's just that enough of the peddles are out of sight behind the console and seat that I can't tell of the two peddles are actually one or not. I, like you, presume they really ARE two different peddles, but I was curious if you had some other image showing that more clearly or not.

In print, in a larger size, they do appear to be two different pairs of pedals.

By comparison, a Spartan and a Valkyrie aren't always so different in their approach, and the Valkyrie shows this. In jet, it's controls look like we expect, more or less, while in battloid, most of what a Spartan seems to have is present in a Valkyrie as well.

It's not just PHYSICAL controls either... it's software too. The Spartan is going to have an entirely different kinesthetics program from the Valkyrie, and so on.

HOTAS design techniques aren't intended to ensure a pilot never has to remove his hands form his controls, merely that he rarely has to do this.

I know, I said as much... but the way transformation system controls and other major parts like communications are handled, the pilot is FOREVER taking his hands off one or the other.

While the Valkyrie seems to lack this to one degree or another, the Spartas clearly does not, and really, the Valkyrie shouldn't have, Sho-K seems to have messed up there!

See ye the DYRL cockpit... "it got better".

And lastly, thank you for explaining the UN thing to me, even in brief. I always assumed it meant UN, even though that thought tended to gall the American in me something fierce!

Nah, Unity Government... the founding members who really pushed for it were America, the United Kingdom, France, (West) Germany, Russia (Soviet Union), and Japan.

[Trooper Jim]

Who cares what they are called! Crap this is a silly argument.

[keir451]

...unless the sophisticated simulators of the kind we see in RT2 are in play.

Considering the U.S. Army uses very sophisticated simulators already for training personnel in the use of M1 Abrams tanks and the Apache gunships, i'd say that the RDF could've had systems similar to those to aid in their training regimens and supported it with actual time in trainer models similar to the on Rick/Hikaru was in during the first few couple of episodes. Though we do see use of some very high level holographics in Macross when Rick/Hikaru and Minmei are out running around, so it's possible that they may, indeed, have had RT2 level simulators available to them.

[Kagashi]

Given that the UEDF and the UEEF are the consolidated military forces of Earth's ruling government, they are what Truman wanted into 1945 and beyond: a unified military force that has different branches. It's just like Earthforce in B5, where they had security, command, army, etc. Each branch specializes in a particular area, but they are all under the same unified command authority/organization group. The Marines are used as the name for ground forces, while the Navy is delegated as the space and air force based forces. Marines also serve as shipboard security, extra hands for damage control parties, etc. They just had the name because of the Naval based origins that almost all human military sci-fi organizations retain when they go space. UN Spacy, on the other hand, had a space army and a space force, which makes sense since they're also just two branches, and the Valkryie can do double duty as a fighter or a ground combat unit.

As far as the current Robotech books are concerned, the UEDF and UEEF have Marines and Navy. What I am hopeful for is that this book drops in the information for Sentinels and enough 2nd ed info to run a UEEF expeditionary game, without doing a bunch of conversion work for the older units again. That part of Robotech always interested me more than the Invid Invasion anyway, because the Regent became his enemy.

Agreed. Sentinels may be secondary continuity according to Tommy Yune now, but its obvious that Palladium is working in Sentinel's source material into the game again. There is so much out there, including Invid Invasion style REF destroids to fill this book.

[Seto Kaiba]

Given that the UEDF and the UEEF are the consolidated military forces of Earth's ruling government, they are what Truman wanted into 1945 and beyond: a unified military force that has different branches.

That's debatable... the few available details on the military's structure in Robotech are a confused mess, and the nomenclature used suggests the UEDF and UEEF were, in fact, two separate and entirely autonomous militaries. To put the cherry on it, from the time the Expeditionary Force was formed on, it has been established that the serving government was little more than a sock puppet handling relations between the general public and the real rulers of Earth... the UEDF brass. On the other hand, changes made to the original concept for Sentinels in RTSC removed its civilian overseer to the role of just another soldier-scientist.

So... it's not really a unified military force with different branches, it's more like two separate militaries which each have their own branches, with no common chain of command between them. Well, even the existence of branches in the UEDF is debatable, since they refer to the whole organization simply as the "Army of the Southern Cross", which the many divisions are all answerable to.

However, it WAS a single, unified military prior to the end of the first war and the subsequent formation of the UEEF... in much the same way that the UN Forces in Macross continue to be a unified military for the supranational UN Government that unites Earth with its many, MANY offworld and outsystem colonies. The UN Forces, as a unified military, have seven distinct branches of service... the surface-side defenses provided by the UN Army, UN Air Force, UN Navy, and UN Marine Corps, and the space-based defenses of the UN Spacy, UN Spacy Air Force, and UN Spacy Marine Corps.

They just had the name because of the Naval based origins that almost all human military sci-fi organizations retain when they go space.

It was probably motivated, in part, by Harmony Gold's love of copying the OSM's line whenever possible... the UN Forces in Macross had TWO Marine Corps.

UN Spacy, on the other hand, had a space army and a space force, which makes sense since they're also just two branches, and the Valkryie can do double duty as a fighter or a ground combat unit.

Eh... not quite. The UN Spacy is just one of the seven branches of service in the UN Forces, there were two others that closely inter-operated with it: the UN Spacy Air Force and the UN Spacy Marine Corps.

The UN Spacy was, in fact, the "Space Army"... though it was responsible for fleet operations in space, the structure is that of an army with its own flying corps in addition to mechanized infantry. The other branches had other areas of responsibility... the UN Spacy Air Force seems to have had responsibility for surface-to-orbit defense, and the UN Spacy Marines seem to have been what they did with all of those Zentradi battle suit units they acquired over the years.

The Robotech RPG's UEDF Spacy seems to have been a "Space Navy", and they describe the VFs in the fleet as having belonged to Marine aviators.

[mech798]

So any news or hints on when this is supposed to appear?

[Arnie100]

Delayed again until October.

[jaymz]

Delayed again until October.

So likely early next year.......

[guardiandashi]

Delayed again until October.

So likely early next year.......

my understanding is that the UNspacy, and later the UEDF was the "guardian at the gates force" IE stay home and protect the earth stuff. during the first robotech war it was the whole military (effectively) other than semi rogue groups.

THE UEEF was the United Earth Expeditionary Force IE the "offensive" force sent out to talk to the masters/ explore the galaxy to get the relevant parties to "LEAVE EARTH ALONE"!!!!

In us military terms it would be more or less the national guard/reserves as the UEDF and the navy or other forces that get deployed "overseas" as the UEEF.

the analogy may not be exact but that's the gist of it.

[jaymz]

Actually to me the Coast Guard/Air Force/Navy and Army are the UEDF and the Marines are the UEEF.

Why?

The former (Coast Guard/Air Force/Navy and Army) are mostly based in the US and thus readily available for defensive purposes 9wtih only toke forces deployed over seas or specifically deployed into specific theatres for use).

The latter (Marines) are the first contact, initial landing, invasion force. That's what they do. They have their own naval assets to some degree. They have their own air force in a manner. They have their own mechanized forces as well. They are a combination of sorts of the other four branches rolled into one.

[Seto Kaiba]

my understanding is that the UNspacy, and later the UEDF was the "guardian at the gates force" IE stay home and protect the earth stuff. during the first robotech war it was the whole military (effectively) other than semi rogue groups.

Well, in the way it's actually depicted, the Defense Forces were originally the only military because the UEG hasn't really had any (known) plans tabled for deep-space exploration before the war. It was focused upon planetary defense because that's all they were worried about.

THE UEEF was the United Earth Expeditionary Force IE the "offensive" force sent out to talk to the masters/ explore the galaxy to get the relevant parties to "LEAVE EARTH ALONE"!!!!

After the first war, when the Expeditionary Forces were established, they seem to have been basically an entirely self-contained second military. Not a branch of the existing UEG armed forces, but an entity with its own chain of command, its own branches of service, etc. that had the authority and ability to operate independently of the UEG and its UEDF. There's not really a great real-world precedent for that, but they draw a line under it even in the RPG... the UEG was a puppet of the UEDF brass, and the UEEF was a self-governing entity out in deep space that was not subject to the authority of the UEDF or, apparently, the UEG.