Zavor as a weapon against the CS

[Alrik Vas]

Re: Dimensional Anchor:

I might have been criss-crossing D&D with Rifts. Though I recall a spell that shuts down rips in space-time being a thing in this game as well. I'll have to research to find it.

Flatline, like i said, the plan is good. it would cause a massive disturbance and lead to a lot of problems for the CS. Though it would be best used as a distraction to get another plan to work more smoothly, as you suggested before. With the accuracy of dimensional portal being questionable, you'd have to use a lot of them before you got a target area you were happy with and there's nothing saying for certain the effect would be duplicated, or if putting a portal in the same or similar location is even possible.

Though if a GM allowed this sort of thing to go off without a hitch, i'd be surprised. There are just too many variables on Rifts earth. A ley line storm could start up, or another rift could tear open just near the gateway...OR...another shhifter could make a portal right in front of yours and send them somewhere else.

In any case, by the time anyone could mount a real counter, the real plan should have gone off. That's all that should matter ultimately.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

--flatline

The ability to breathe.

[Hystrix]

This Harpy thing needs to stop now. It states that they can fly while in space. Breaking the Earths gravity (going a sonic 60 mph) is another thing entirly. So, no. The Harpy isn't 280 miles up in the sky droping things on Chi-Town (well, not sucessfully, anyway).

[flatline]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

--flatline

The ability to breathe.

We combine oxygen from the air with carbon from our food. That's why we need to breathe.

Zavor don't eat or drink anything, so unless they're getting all their energy from the air (which, if true, is a strange omission from their description), there's no purpose for them to breathe except perhaps to help regulate body heat...but heat and cold don't't harm zavor either, so that need seems unlikely.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

--flatline

The ability to breathe.

We combine oxygen from the air with carbon from our food. That's why we need to breathe.

Zavor don't eat or drink anything, so unless they're getting all their energy from the air (which, if true, is a strange omission from their description), there's no purpose for them to breathe except perhaps to help regulate body heat...but heat and cold don't't harm zavor either, so that need seems unlikely.

--flatline

I'm only looking at CB1r, but all that book says is that they don't need to eat.
Not that they don't need to drink.
Not that they don't need to breathe.
Not that they don't have a metabolism.

Plants don't need to eat, but that doesn't mean that they don't need to breathe, or that they don't have other requirements.

[flatline]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

--flatline

The ability to breathe.

We combine oxygen from the air with carbon from our food. That's why we need to breathe.

Zavor don't eat or drink anything, so unless they're getting all their energy from the air (which, if true, is a strange omission from their description), there's no purpose for them to breathe except perhaps to help regulate body heat...but heat and cold don't't harm zavor either, so that need seems unlikely.

--flatline

I'm only looking at CB1r, but all that book says is that they don't need to eat.
Not that they don't need to drink.
Not that they don't need to breathe.
Not that they don't have a metabolism.

Plants don't need to eat, but that doesn't mean that they don't need to breathe, or that they don't have other requirements.

Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly. I'll check the description tonight.

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

--flatline

The ability to breathe.

We combine oxygen from the air with carbon from our food. That's why we need to breathe.

Zavor don't eat or drink anything, so unless they're getting all their energy from the air (which, if true, is a strange omission from their description), there's no purpose for them to breathe except perhaps to help regulate body heat...but heat and cold don't't harm zavor either, so that need seems unlikely.

--flatline

There is another function of breathing that you are forgetting: sound emission as they are said to SPEAK Gobbley/Goblin, they are going to need to "breathe" in order to communicate. At least unless they have some undocumented Psychic or Magic ability to communicate.

The text in CB1r pg192. "They serve no master, do not eat, and have absolutely no need or want for weather..." under the bolded Notes section at the bottom of the page. Unless the PF Baalgor Wastelands book has more to say (Baalgor Wastelands are mentioned specifically in their habitat section in RCB1r).

[Tor]

You ignored that I posted earlier that radar has range greater than 30 miles, listed in RUE

This comment confused the heck out of me, went back to look, did not remember reading this post by you before, I think because I made a quick reply to The Beast and only noticed that one.

on radar RUE pg 265 has a Radar military-large semi portable radar with 100 mile range double that in open places. Is that an effective range? (Large non portable radar will have much greater range.)

You made this post 2 hours prior to your subsequent one, where you mention the 200 mile RUEdar and the 800 mile Navydar, and I did address that one. May as well reply to rest...

The reason not to shoot down the killer satellites is why waste the ammo.

To salvage pre-Rifts wreckage that might fall, to clear up the junk so you could set up your own satellites or colonies, etc.

Not sure what a Zevor is or where it is from but if it needs to breath then that caps the range. Will said creature surve being droped from near orbit?

They're invulnerable to most attacks like vampires/werebeasts are. I think they would die if they fell onto a forest since wood hurts them (although that might not include wood covered in leaves...) but unless Chi-Town is covered in log cabins, odds are the impact won't hurt them. Not sure about whether or not they need to breathe. They are invulnerable to cold though, which would probably help survival at those altitudes. Seeing as how they would be dropped instantly, they wouldn't be without breathe for THAT long... although I guess the original could suffocate...

In which case, since the original can't be enchanted with breath without there, I would modify the strategy by somehow cycling so that you drop the original and keep the clone afloat. The clone being newly-made won't have suffocated yet, and the one who has been without air longest will be dropped.

keeping with your assumption that it would be undebatable when I only had to check 2 books and shot a whole in it.

I wasn't assuming this was undebateable, I just asked if anyone knew where better radar was.

I did not know I just cracked books and looked in the gear section (only takes 3 books to cover most of what the CS uses).

Hate to reveal my munchkin side, but I pretty much only look at their cool robots and miss out on details the initially seem unimportant like RADAR or med kits With time am realizing the importance of these less obvious strategic things though.

With the 800 mile range they are going to quickly get a idea of where the attack is coming from(by the second or third attack) forward units will be looking for you, then by putting some forward patrols out with 200 mile radar they will locate your launch point. Guess what either you triggered a full scale attack of where you are at by a CS forward base, CS commandos show up to deal with you or they nuke you.

The problem is, since aircraft generally has altitude limits, I think a missile would be the only thing that could fly up high enough to engage the harpy. Does anyone know any CS flying things where an altitude limit is high enough or, more likely, one was never given?

Really all standard stuff should have altitude limits unless there's a reason to think it's way beyond current tech (like how the naruni space-moon plane thing doesn't have one and can fly into space) but it's plausible authors can forget to put it in, which could lead us to declare that it has unlimited altitude and could engage the space-rim Dharpy and save on LRM ammo costs.

How does someone trace a portal back to its origin other than entering it while it's open?

I can think of one strategy for this, though it puzzled me at first. It requires the use of two sensitive psionic powers and some old-fashioned detective work.

1. use Read Dimensional Portal to get a vision of the last person to use the portal
2. track down that person and take any objects the person had with them while crossing the portal
3. use object read to get a vision of where the object was in the past, which should allow you to see the previous dimension

How many good dragons or shifters hang around Chi-Town and are willing to expose themselves to the CS forces in order to intervene?

It's doubtful any dragons would help, and the Vanguard does not employ Shifters, so they're not likely to help either.

The Vanguard (LLWs, mystics, TWs and conjurers) could have obtained or even created scrolls of Close Rift, and they could give them to non-magic agents (psychic RCCs are also part of the Vanguard, possibly including some double agents in Psi-Net or Psi-Bat, who knows). The CS is also known to (usually far in the field and not close to home) hire mercenary men of magic for odd jobs, and closing a dangerous Rift over Chi-Town would probably be one of those situations.

Of course the PR spin on it would be that they killed the evil mage who made the portal, closing it, and not that a friendly mage helped out.

Zavor is from Rifts Conversion Book 1 (I have the revised version, may or may not make a difference) that is converted from Palladium Fantasy (not sure where it appears here, but RCB1r its the last two pages of the book).

Zavor show up in Library of Bletherad, but I don't think that'd been written when CB1 came out so Im' thinking they must have showed up in some world book prior to that. Maybe the monsters/animals source?

there are very few powers though that could harm them. Unless every psychic in the CS has access to Super Psionics, and coincidently has TK powers, the actual pool of effective psychics may be less unless just being a psychic allows some of their non-mental attacks to do damage (like melee), which I seriously doubt is the case.

Every psychic can wield a Weapon Gauntlet, which gives unlimited (no ISP cost, unless it got added later, anyone know) electrokinetic blasts, which would mow down Zavors easily and indefinitely. It's cost-prohibitive, but could be worn in shifts and shared among soldiers.

Also wondering if the CS might hire Fallen Cyber-Knights as mercenaries in a case like this, their swords would mow down the Zavor. I'd want to prowl up on them so you can get the first shot in though. If they managed to simultaneously attack (and that seems likely, since they're in rages and don't have an automatic parry) then they would whittle down your armor.

does it really say they can fly in space?

Yup. The dimension books updated Demons/De(e)vils in a lot of ways. This being one of them, along with more being capable of limb regeneration.

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

Not having to eat physical food doesn't mean you lack a metabolism. I think dragons are similar in that they don't have to eat but still need to breath. It's possible these supernatural creatures are able to metabolize ambient PPE using oxygen.

You also are operating in the mind set that they would use the magic make copies of themselves for the sake of making copies of themselves.

They explicitly do this, CB1 states that if they get ahold of magic weapons they will horde them to make copies.

Which does not match the right up as they would have over whelmed PF if even one survived and had magic weapon.

This is why they haven't been completely wiped out and why great purges are made of them. Odds are that a number of interested groups and powerful beings are keeping a close eye out for such a threat to deal with quickly.

This also brings to mind... common sense dictates that while Zavor seem pretty supernatural, they wouldn't be creatures of magic, because if they were, they could simply hit each other or even themself to cause a duplication and would not need to grab a flaming sword to do it.

[Tor]

This Harpy thing needs to stop now. It states that they can fly while in space. Breaking the Earths gravity (going a sonic 60 mph) is another thing entirly. So, no. The Harpy isn't 280 miles up in the sky droping things on Chi-Town (well, not sucessfully, anyway).

Anything capable of flight (or even jumping) is overwhelming gravity. To be able to fly means that you have a means of constantly countering earth's downward acceleration. Harpies do this by maintaining the ability to fly. They are not given any altitude limits.

Normal animals probably avoid flying to high heights due to factors like a lack of oxygen, a low temperature, or a lack of incentive, so it's hard to say what their upper limits actually would be. A dire harpy under it's master's control would clearly lack many of these considerations. If you can survive the cold oxygenless void of space, you can certainly survive the cold thin air of higher altitudes.

A flying creature does not actually need to be able to attain escape velocity. Escape velocity is only required when you are no longer able to accelerate, it is the speed at which acceleration can be stopped, since your momentum, though continuing to reduce from gravity's downward acceleration, doesn't reduce fast enough to bring you back down, since gravity is also reducing (as distance increases).

Harpies, since they can magically fly without any air at all to push against (since they can fly in space) can simply continue to exert force to go higher and higher.

I see no principle of physics that would stop them...

I guess it's possible that ice crystals could collect on wings and slow them down, but they would seem capable of breaking free of them whenever that got too hampersome.

[The Beast]

This Harpy thing needs to stop now. It states that they can fly while in space. Breaking the Earths gravity (going a sonic 60 mph) is another thing entirly. So, no. The Harpy isn't 280 miles up in the sky droping things on Chi-Town (well, not sucessfully, anyway).

Anything capable of flight (or even jumping) is overwhelming gravity. To be able to fly means that you have a means of constantly countering earth's downward acceleration. Harpies do this by maintaining the ability to fly. They are not given any altitude limits.

Normal animals probably avoid flying to high heights due to factors like a lack of oxygen, a low temperature, or a lack of incentive, so it's hard to say what their upper limits actually would be. A dire harpy under it's master's control would clearly lack many of these considerations. If you can survive the cold oxygenless void of space, you can certainly survive the cold thin air of higher altitudes.

A flying creature does not actually need to be able to attain escape velocity. Escape velocity is only required when you are no longer able to accelerate, it is the speed at which acceleration can be stopped, since your momentum, though continuing to reduce from gravity's downward acceleration, doesn't reduce fast enough to bring you back down, since gravity is also reducing (as distance increases).

Harpies, since they can magically fly without any air at all to push against (since they can fly in space) can simply continue to exert force to go higher and higher.

I see no principle of physics that would stop them...

I guess it's possible that ice crystals could collect on wings and slow them down, but they would seem capable of breaking free of them whenever that got too hampersome.

I'm in agreement with this.

As far as the breathing thing goes, imo, if it's not an energy being, a mineral/crystal being, an undead creature, or specifically says it doesn't need to breathe, then it's a safe bet that PB intends the creature-in-question to breathe. (Also I only meant to write in energy creatures. The other two popped in as I was writing. I'm sure there's one or two more catagories that generally don't require breathing.)

[eliakon]

Palladium Physics though require things to fly at mach 5 to fly into orbit (its in MiO....) ergo....no orbital harpies....

[flatline]

Palladium Physics though require things to fly at mach 5 to fly into orbit (its in MiO....) ergo....no orbital harpies....

Palladium authors have long misunderstood the concept of escape velocity. I think I first noticed it in Southern Cross in the Logan description.

But we know better, so let's avoid wasting time and energy on arguments based on canon statements that are demonstrably wrong.

Edit: you have inspired me to update my sig.

--flatline

[Hystrix]

Palladium Physics though require things to fly at mach 5 to fly into orbit (its in MiO....) ergo....no orbital harpies....

Palladium authors have long misunderstood the concept of escape velocity. I think I first noticed it in Southern Cross in the Logan description.

But we know better, so let's avoid wasting time and energy on arguments based on canon statements that are demonstrably wrong.

Edit: you have inspired me to update my sig.

--flatline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity

The escape velocity is around Mach 33. Mach 1 is 767 mph.

Therefore, escape velocity from Earth is over 25,000 mph. The fastest Harpy goes 66 mph. Meaning that it would have to travel 378 times what it's maximum speed is.

So yeah, palladium is wrong (I alwas stated Mach 5 was required), but then so is the argument that a creature that can only fly 66 mph can escape the Earth's gravity. It can't.

[Nightmask]

Palladium Physics though require things to fly at mach 5 to fly into orbit (its in MiO....) ergo....no orbital harpies....

Palladium authors have long misunderstood the concept of escape velocity. I think I first noticed it in Southern Cross in the Logan description.

But we know better, so let's avoid wasting time and energy on arguments based on canon statements that are demonstrably wrong.

Edit: you have inspired me to update my sig.

--flatline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity

The escape velocity is around Mach 33. Mach 1 is 767 mph.

Therefore, escape velocity from Earth is over 25,000 mph. The fastest Harpy goes 66 mph. Meaning that it would have to travel 378 times what it's maximum speed is.

So yeah, palladium is wrong (I alwas stated Mach 5 was required), but then so is the argument that a creature that can only fly 66 mph can escape the Earth's gravity. It can't.

If it has the means to sustain that indefinitely it can, Escape Velocity only applies to things with regards to those that are basically unassisted and is the velocity it needs to be at to keep going out into space. Something that can sustain a constant velocity that's greater than the countering effects of gravity will eventually make it into space since it has the resources to just keep going (such a someone with an anti-gravity pack from Phase World, there is no ceiling on how high you can go).

[flatline]

Palladium Physics though require things to fly at mach 5 to fly into orbit (its in MiO....) ergo....no orbital harpies....

Palladium authors have long misunderstood the concept of escape velocity. I think I first noticed it in Southern Cross in the Logan description.

But we know better, so let's avoid wasting time and energy on arguments based on canon statements that are demonstrably wrong.

Edit: you have inspired me to update my sig.

--flatline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity

The escape velocity is around Mach 33. Mach 1 is 767 mph.

Therefore, escape velocity from Earth is over 25,000 mph. The fastest Harpy goes 66 mph. Meaning that it would have to travel 378 times what it's maximum speed is.

So yeah, palladium is wrong (I alwas stated Mach 5 was required), but then so is the argument that a creature that can only fly 66 mph can escape the Earth's gravity. It can't.

Perhaps you should read that wikipedia article again. You've clearly missed an important detail.

It is the speed needed to "break free" from the gravitational attraction of a massive body, without further propulsion

The emphasis is mine, but that is the point you've missed.

--flatline

[Tor]

The escape velocity is around Mach 33. Mach 1 is 767 mph. Therefore, escape velocity from Earth is over 25,000 mph. The fastest Harpy goes 66 mph. Meaning that it would have to travel 378 times what it's maximum speed is.

I'm not thinking you get what escape velocity means, it is only relevant for non-accelerating bodies. Anything still capable of accelerating (like a Harpy) would not need to attain escape velocity.

Escape velocity is relevant for things like launching a cannonball, since the only accelerating happens with the initial explosion.

I can escape the Earth even if I could fly at a constant velocity of 1 mile per hour.

To maintain that velocity I would need to be accelerating up equal to the earth's pull, though. Otherwise my velocity would be subtracted by gravity and I would fall.

Palladium's flight rules haven't always been incredibly thorough. When we're given a flight speed, I generally assume that is a horizontal speed. For anything with wings, the assumption being that this creates lift to counter gravity in some way. You'd have to change this up for wingless fliers though, in ways I'm not sure (presumably they exert some kind of upward force to counter gravity).

The majority of fliers (those affected by gravity) would obviously be capable of travelling faster if they were flying on a downward arc, and would be slowed down if they were flying upward, since it's a difference of working against or being helped by gravity.

Palladium Physics though require things to fly at mach 5 to fly into orbit (its in MiO....)

If I were throwing a baseball up at Mach 5, yeah. If the baseball had a rocket strapped to it, I wouldn't need to throw it as fast, because it could add to that speed through its own acceleration.

[flatline]

Several people have mentioned their doubts about whether dimensional portal can be used at all to transport zavor.

I think they can and I'll try to outline why that is the case.

1. Zavor can go through rifts otherwise they would not even be mentioned in CB1.
2. Zavor are impervious to magic, but they are not impervious to the secondary effects of magic. For instance, if I use magic to dig a hole in the ground, a zavor could still fall into it. Magically created water will still make the zavor wet.
3. I consider a rift to be a "hole" torn in the barrier between dimensions. The act of tearing and preserving the hole via Dimensional Portal is a magical effect, but I consider the resulting hole itself to be a secondary effect. The hole is part of the environment rather than a magical construct. As such, it is my ruling that zavor can pass through it normally.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I'm also not interested in arguing the point. Without some way of transporting zavor in relatively large quantities, this whole thread becomes largely a moot point.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

Without some way of transporting zavor in relatively large quantities, this whole thread becomes largely a moot point.

You only need to transport one Zavor with a bunch of TW Goblin Bombs attached to him.

[Alrik Vas]

I rather thought that challenging the idea they could be moved via portal as moot.

Teleportation on the other hand can be taken as not using a portal.

Though it's unrelated.

[Killer Cyborg]

Several people have mentioned their doubts about whether dimensional portal can be used at all to transport zavor.

I think they can and I'll try to outline why that is the case.

1. Zavor can go through rifts otherwise they would not even be mentioned in CB1.

Hm. Well, it's possible that they have unknown creators out there who could show up on Rifts Earth and make new ones.

But yeah, I agree that the most likely explanation is that they CAN go through rifts.

[flatline]

So let's assume we need to produce zavor on-sight, what strategies are available to us? Here's some brainstorming...hope some of it is useful.

If we're rifting zavor to their target destination, then throwing some fire globes through the rift ahead of them would produce magic fire for them to reproduce from for a couple of minutes.

Another strategy would be to take advantage of their docile nature when alone. Transport individual zavor to various locations that are relatively secluded and give them a locket that unlocks at a predetermined time in the future exposing a small magic item that they can use to reproduce. We could, with effort, hide several hundred zavor over a wide area of CS territory before they begin reproducing, but the rate of reproduction would be linear rather than exponential which, quite frankly, is unlikely to stress CS forces at all.

If we want exponential growth (at least initially), then someone needs to be with the zavor who can cast area effect spells (cloud of slumber? wall of fire?) or use TW weapons. If all zavor are reproducing as quickly as possible for the first 5 minues, 1 zavor will become 1024 zavor. It's hard to stay exponential after that with only one person farming the zavor.

Perhaps the best strategy would be to seed the target area with persistent magic effects like eternal flame. Imagine if the 1000+ eternal flames were spread out across the burbs before rifting in 10 or 20 thousand zavor. The eternal flames would probably be guarded before the zavor arrived, but simply having them would create the potential for zavor reproduction.

We could drop thousands of toothpicks enchanted with the amulet spell over the burbs, but the zavor don't have any special ability to detect magic items that I'm aware of, so even if the dog boys don't find all the toothpicks first, it's unlikely that the zavor will find many of them.

If these musings spark ideas in any of you and you develop them further, please share the result.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

So let's assume we need to produce zavor on-sight, what strategies are available to us? Here's some brainstorming...hope some of it is useful.

If we're rifting zavor to their target destination, then throwing some fire globes through the rift ahead of them would produce magic fire for them to reproduce from for a couple of minutes.

Another strategy would be to take advantage of their docile nature when alone. Transport individual zavor to various locations that are relatively secluded and give them a locket that unlocks at a predetermined time in the future exposing a small magic item that they can use to reproduce. We could, with effort, hide several hundred zavor over a wide area of CS territory before they begin reproducing, but the rate of reproduction would be linear rather than exponential which, quite frankly, is unlikely to stress CS forces at all.

If we want exponential growth (at least initially), then someone needs to be with the zavor who can cast area effect spells (cloud of slumber? wall of fire?) or use TW weapons. If all zavor are reproducing as quickly as possible for the first 5 minues, 1 zavor will become 1024 zavor. It's hard to stay exponential after that with only one person farming the zavor.

CB1 170
They... do gather and keep easy-to-use magic items, like a flaming sword, to create more of themselves.

This doesn't mean that they necessarily create more of themselves as a priority; remember, they also want to kill all living things, and they have an IQ of 1d6+1, so they're not likely to understand the big picture of "let's just duplicate non-stop, until we have overwhelming force."
Then again, there is a magic ring in Western Empires that increases IQ by up to +3 (iirc). Give ONE zavor that kind of ring, and a bit of "no, just keep stabbing yourself, let your clones do all the attacking" type training, and that would be more effective.
Cast buffer spells like Fleet Feet on him, and it'd make him even more effective.

Anyway, point is, obviously you've got a budget if you're going to pull off this kind of maneuver. Rift in a bunch of cheap magic weapons (Daggers with a Color enchantment, for example), and let them do a lot of the multiplication for you.

Perhaps the best strategy would be to seed the target area with persistent magic effects like eternal flame. Imagine if the 1000+ eternal flames were spread out across the burbs before rifting in 10 or 20 thousand zavor. The eternal flames would probably be guarded before the zavor arrived, but simply having them would create the potential for zavor reproduction.

Trying to get 1k+ Eternal Flames going in the Burbs would take a long time, and/or drastically increase the odds of the entire plan getting screwed up.
Fire Globes was a better idea.

[flatline]

Trying to get 1k+ Eternal Flames going in the Burbs would take a long time, and/or drastically increase the odds of the entire plan getting screwed up.
Fire Globes was a better idea.

Even ignoring the potential for zavor reproduction, it's a good idea to cast Eternal Flame in the Burbs. Once cast, the CS has no way of getting rid of it and the ongoing magic effect confuses dogboy senses. In fact, it would not be surprising to me to find out that there are already hundreds or thousands of eternal flames in the Burbs.

--flatline

[flatline]

This doesn't mean that they necessarily create more of themselves as a priority; remember, they also want to kill all living things, and they have an IQ of 1d6+1, so they're not likely to understand the big picture of "let's just duplicate non-stop, until we have overwhelming force."
Then again, there is a magic ring in Western Empires that increases IQ by up to +3 (iirc). Give ONE zavor that kind of ring, and a bit of "no, just keep stabbing yourself, let your clones do all the attacking" type training, and that would be more effective.
Cast buffer spells like Fleet Feet on him, and it'd make him even more effective.

I don't think you can cast Fleet Feet on a zavor due to their imperviousness to magic...

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Fair point. Same with the ring, I guess.

[Killer Cyborg]

Think they could use TW stuff? Or would that not be simple?

[Killer Cyborg]

You could also hope that the Vanguard tries to help the CS in this crisis.

[flatline]

You could also hope that the Vanguard tries to help the CS in this crisis.

Interesting. I only know what's been said on these forums so I can't really speculate about how the Vanguard might get involved or whether or not it would be a good thing. I've started another thread for it since I'm quite certain that this thread would get derailed if we pursued it here.

*goes off to amazon to see how much a used vanguard book runs...*

--flatline

[flatline]

So what are some efficient means to cause zavor to reproduce?

Could of Slumber seems like a no-brainer since it's an area effect, is obviously an attack since the victims attempt to save, and only costs 4PPE per casting.

Could of Smoke would be even better if it works, but it's not clear that it does. It could be argued that the smoke is not an attack and so it would not trigger the zavor duplication.

Blinding Flash (1PPE) also requires a saving throw, so it might cause the zavor to duplicate.

--flatline

[Tor]

1. Zavor can go through rifts otherwise they would not even be mentioned in CB1.

The issue is whether or not random rifts and 'dimensional portal' spells are the same thing. DP is definitely a magical effect since it doesn't create something permanent, magic is keeping the portal open, it closes when it ends.

I guess I do tend to side with your stance on this though, just reaching to see if there's anything on the other side.

Without some way of transporting zavor in relatively large quantities, this whole thread becomes largely a moot point.

That's definitely the most effective, but I still like my harpy-trickle HAB strat.

If you were going to portal them, if possible I'd make the portal very very high so that they can be zavor-bombs, just don't drop them onto a forest or a wooden shanty-town.

only need to transport one Zavor with a bunch of TW Goblin Bombs attached to him.

I get the idea of the first bomb going off and the second bomb going off being 2 booms, but assuming that the first would set off 2nd and 3rd bomb at same time, wouldn't that all be one blast?

We have to keep in mind that the duplication isn't instant, it takes several melee rounds, so I don't think you could trigger additional divisions during that time.

Although since they LIKE to divide themselves sometimes, you could just give them a minor magical weapon, not that hard to make.

If we want exponential growth (at least initially), then someone needs to be with the zavor who can cast area effect spells (cloud of slumber? wall of fire?) or use TW weapons.

Was going to protest CoS because it doesn't seem like a magic spell "attack", but then paralysis bolt works... wait I can't even remember where I saw that spell...

Ah found it, 1st level wizard spell in PRPG, doesn't seem to have made it into Rifts/PF2nd. Pretty sweet spell. Wonder if Palladium ever used it against after 1st ed PRPG.

If all zavor are reproducing as quickly as possible for the first 5 minues, 1 zavor will become 1024 zavor. It's hard to stay exponential after that with only one person farming the zavor.

One major limitation, besides the duration, is also the area of effect. Once there's 24 they swarm, which I picture means spreading out and attacking stuff. So the ones who spread out to attack would probably wander outside the radius of your spell and no longer be dividers.

Also since duplication can only occur twice per minute, the number of Zavor after m minutes is 2^(2m) so 5min is 2^10 or 1024 as you said, but assuming they would all from the start of your spell be moving away from it to attack targets (unless you left some targets in the cloud for them to swarm on) they would generationally make their way out.

Perhaps the best strategy would be to seed the target area with persistent magic effects like eternal flame. Imagine if the 1000+ eternal flames were spread out across the burbs before rifting in 10 or 20 thousand zavor. The eternal flames would probably be guarded before the zavor arrived, but simply having them would create the potential for zavor reproduction.

Would Stalkers/Hounds be able to sniff out such active magic?

You could just put an eternal flame on a torch or something and make the Zavor swallow it.

We could drop thousands of toothpicks enchanted with the amulet spell over the burbs, but the zavor don't have any special ability to detect magic items that I'm aware of, so even if the dog boys don't find all the toothpicks first, it's unlikely that the zavor will find many of them.

I'm not sure how an amulet could be used to divide a zavor, did you mean Talisman? Would Zavor even know how to activate those? Would their immunity to magic let them?

there is a magic ring in Western Empires that increases IQ by up to +3 (iirc). Give ONE zavor that kind of ring, and a bit of "no, just keep stabbing yourself, let your clones do all the attacking" type training, and that would be more effective.

Cast buffer spells like Fleet Feet on him, and it'd make him even more effective.

But can Zavor use magical items? Can buffer spells be cast on them? It says they're immune to passive magic like charms/healing

Fire Globes was a better idea.

Do we trick the Zavor into carrying them in or something?

CAN they even carry a fire globe?

it's a good idea to cast Eternal Flame in the Burbs. Once cast, the CS has no way of getting rid of it

it would not be surprising to me to find out that there are already hundreds or thousands of eternal flames in the Burbs.

You have to level significantly as a fire warlock to get that, and you'd put yourself at a huge risk going around casting it.

Although that whole 'Mystic Invisibility' spell introduced in Merc Adventures certainly makes such espionage a lot more plausible now.

Since it's a combat mage spell, it could be tough for a warlock to get their hands on a scroll/talisman of it though.

Think they could use TW stuff? Or would that not be simple?

They don't have psychic or magic abilities, so no. Not unless it was one of those newfangled kind that anyone can use powered by a PPE battery or something.

You could also hope that the Vanguard tries to help the CS in this crisis.

The CS also hires spellcasters as mercenaries, off the books, and might plausibly have a scroll collection somewhere for emergencies like this.

*wonders if a renegade human supremist Phase Mystic made it to North America and spread the teaching, if the CS might eventually adopt it (as they have other forms of alien training like the Psi-Warrior) since the Close Rift phase power would be an asset for them.

[flatline]

If all zavor are reproducing as quickly as possible for the first 5 minues, 1 zavor will become 1024 zavor. It's hard to stay exponential after that with only one person farming the zavor.

One major limitation, besides the duration, is also the area of effect. Once there's 24 they swarm, which I picture means spreading out and attacking stuff. So the ones who spread out to attack would probably wander outside the radius of your spell and no longer be dividers.

Yes, after the first couple splits, there would be enough zavor to require multiple castings to catch them all. Some would get away, but assuming they can't run away from you while they're in the process of splitting, you'd always be able to keep some close to you to continue splitting.

Also since duplication can only occur twice per minute, the number of Zavor after m minutes is 2^(2m) so 5min is 2^10 or 1024 as you said, but assuming they would all from the start of your spell be moving away from it to attack targets (unless you left some targets in the cloud for them to swarm on) they would generationally make their way out.

Perhaps the best strategy would be to seed the target area with persistent magic effects like eternal flame. Imagine if the 1000+ eternal flames were spread out across the burbs before rifting in 10 or 20 thousand zavor. The eternal flames would probably be guarded before the zavor arrived, but simply having them would create the potential for zavor reproduction.

Would Stalkers/Hounds be able to sniff out such active magic?

Absolutely, but there's nothing they can do about it. They can't move it. Psi-nullifiers and Nega-psychics can't cancel it. I guess they could try to build something around it to prevent people from seeing it or getting to it. And/or they could post guards around it if they think there's a need. If the area is overrun by zavor, then it's a sure bet that some zavor would use it to replicate.

You could just put an eternal flame on a torch or something and make the Zavor swallow it.

GM willing, you could do that.

We could drop thousands of toothpicks enchanted with the amulet spell over the burbs, but the zavor don't have any special ability to detect magic items that I'm aware of, so even if the dog boys don't find all the toothpicks first, it's unlikely that the zavor will find many of them.

I'm not sure how an amulet could be used to divide a zavor, did you mean Talisman? Would Zavor even know how to activate those? Would their immunity to magic let them?

Casting amulet on an item permanently makes the item a magic item for less PPE than anything else I can think of off-hand. Therefore, if they poke themselves with said magic item, they'll replicate. I screwed up, however, you can't make wooden items like toothpicks into amulets. "one metal purified by fire or made of semiprecious stone" shouldn't be too hard to satisfy.

Fire Globes was a better idea.

Do we trick the Zavor into carrying them in or something?

CAN they even carry a fire globe?

He was referring to my suggestion of throwing fire globes through a rift before sending the zavor through it.

it's a good idea to cast Eternal Flame in the Burbs. Once cast, the CS has no way of getting rid of it

it would not be surprising to me to find out that there are already hundreds or thousands of eternal flames in the Burbs.

You have to level significantly as a fire warlock to get that, and you'd put yourself at a huge risk going around casting it.

Although that whole 'Mystic Invisibility' spell introduced in Merc Adventures certainly makes such espionage a lot more plausible now.

Since it's a combat mage spell, it could be tough for a warlock to get their hands on a scroll/talisman of it though.

I would approach it the other way. Create talismans or scrolls of Eternal Flame and give them to operatives who are otherwise non-magical so that they don't arouse suspicion. If they have high ME, you can even hide the scrolls/talismans in dimensional pockets to make detection even less likely.

A demi-god with warlock powers and a spell-casting OCC could create said talismans/scrolls directly. Or a caster could create scrolls of Talisman and a warlock could read them to create Eternal Flame talismans. A similar trick could be used to create scrolls of Create Magic Scroll which the warlock would then read to create an Eternal Flame scroll.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

CB1 170
They... do gather and keep easy-to-use magic items, like a flaming sword, to create more of themselves.

This doesn't mean that they necessarily create more of themselves as a priority; remember, they also want to kill all living things, and they have an IQ of 1d6+1, so they're not likely to understand the big picture of "let's just duplicate non-stop, until we have overwhelming force."
Then again, there is a magic ring in Western Empires that increases IQ by up to +3 (iirc). Give ONE zavor that kind of ring, and a bit of "no, just keep stabbing yourself, let your clones do all the attacking" type training, and that would be more effective.
Cast buffer spells like Fleet Feet on him, and it'd make him even more effective.

Anyway, point is, obviously you've got a budget if you're going to pull off this kind of maneuver. Rift in a bunch of cheap magic weapons (Daggers with a Color enchantment, for example), and let them do a lot of the multiplication for you.

Zavor don't need to be smart to know that duplication is a priority, the weapons themselves can be smart enough to have that as a priority.

[Giant2005]

So what are some efficient means to cause zavor to reproduce?

Could of Slumber seems like a no-brainer since it's an area effect, is obviously an attack since the victims attempt to save, and only costs 4PPE per casting.

Could of Smoke would be even better if it works, but it's not clear that it does. It could be argued that the smoke is not an attack and so it would not trigger the zavor duplication.

Blinding Flash (1PPE) also requires a saving throw, so it might cause the zavor to duplicate.

--flatline

A bunch of mages could do it manually via Metamorphosis: Mist.
They could just float around banging into Zavor as a magical mist.

Also it is a bit dubious but you could conceivably get away with using the spell "Glimpse of the Future: A Wood & Water Divination" on all of the Zavor simultaneously without being in their vicinity. So a Mage could be far away from trouble, spamming that spell on the Zavor collective as he pleases.

[Tor]

Yes, after the first couple splits, there would be enough zavor to require multiple castings to catch them all. Some would get away, but assuming they can't run away from you while they're in the process of splitting, you'd always be able to keep some close to you to continue splitting.

The splitting process is pretty vague. I do think even if they could move, that they'd at least be slowed down to half speed.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread I think about splitting them in a pit, this could keep them stacked in a bunch and in range of AoE spells.

there's nothing they can do about it.

I meant more along the lines of stopping more from being created...

Although... you could just put a MDC glass lantern casing around an eternal flame, which would prevent a Zavor from walking into it and cloning themself.

Dumping a big pile of earth on top of the flame should also work, I figure. It would still keep burning, but prevent things from seeing it or walking into it, if an adequate supply.

This might eventually bake the dirt into some kind of clay... could it eventually form lava? I don't really know what to expect.

Even without these precautions, unless Zavor can sense magic, would they be motivated to walk into random fires they come across in case the fire is magical and can split them?

They can't move it. Psi-nullifiers and Nega-psychics can't cancel it.

Where's this bit about not moving it come from? I figure it's affixed to something and moves with that something. That could be the earth, in which case it is immobile relative to the earth's movement. But if I cast it on a candle, I expect the eternal flame to move with the candle, not hover in mid-air if I move the candle away. Though I'm not sure what happens when the candle burns down... I'd say follow it to the bottom and wait there once it ran out.

Never did like that bit about Nullis/Negas only being able to intervene during mid-cast...

With things introduced like silent-casting and sped-up casting rate this barely gives any time or knowledge to intervene unless you have special insider info about when and where.

Also wouldn't CS special forces potentially have access to say... a Talisman of Negate Magic from the Black Vault? Not ready on hand, but if encountering permanent flames that were interfering with sensor sweeps, I believe a special order could be put for its acquisition, with much coded language, or to hire a mercenary who has such an item.

they could post guards around it if they think there's a need. If the area is overrun by zavor, then it's a sure bet that some zavor would use it to replicate.

If they have reason to think it's magic. These things speak Gobblely/Goblin so I guess it could be communicated to them... while calm, anyway. I'd wonder how much they would remember of previous prep sessions when they go into swarm-locust mode though.

Maybe these things just randomly run into most threats (cept the ones they know harm them) to revel in their invulnerability and/or to clone.

Casting amulet on an item permanently makes the item a magic item for less PPE than anything else I can think of off-hand. Therefore, if they poke themselves with said magic item, they'll replicate.

I'm not sure if turning something into a magical item is the same as turning it into a magical weapon.

you can't make wooden items like toothpicks into amulets. "one metal purified by fire or made of semiprecious stone" shouldn't be too hard to satisfy.

So say plausibly you turn nails into amulets or talismans and then nail them through a board and lay the board on the ground so that Zavor will step no it as they run past...

Still not entirely sure that changing something into a magic object is the same as making it a magic weapon...

Create talismans or scrolls of Eternal Flame

That's tricky business. Assuming it's possible to change warlock spells into scrolls instead of standard magic, to do so you'd need to be dual-class (warlock/LLW for example) or else some caster would have to draw up a "Scroll of Create Scroll" for a fire warlock to use.

There are proponents who oppose dual classes, and others may oppose the idea of putting Create Scroll into a scroll, so those are some stepping stones. I believe in both scenarios, but even then, it's tricky business.

give them to operatives who are otherwise non-magical so that they don't arouse suspicion.

I can't remember if scroll/talisman radiate magic when not activated.

If they have high ME, you can even hide the scrolls/talismans in dimensional pockets to make detection even less likely.

Don't THOSE register to magic-sensors though?

A demi-god with warlock powers and a spell-casting OCC could create said talismans/scrolls directly. Or a caster could create scrolls of Talisman and a warlock could read them to create Eternal Flame talismans. A similar trick could be used to create scrolls of Create Magic Scroll which the warlock would then read to create an Eternal Flame scroll.

Blah, so you already thought of these... well yes but it's still tricky circumstances, so a limited amount of CS threats could do it, and I still think the aforementioned countermeasures could deal with it.

A bunch of mages could do it manually via Metamorphosis: Mist.
They could just float around banging into Zavor as a magical mist.

I don't think that would work, the Zavor aren't described as dividing upon merely making ANY physical contact (assuming you can even call it that with mist) with creatures of magic.

By this logic if I use metamorphosis: monkey and throw my feces at a Zavor, it will split, because it is magical monkey feces? Pretty sure the target of the spell is the caster but that it doesn't make the morphed form count as magic.

This isn't far off from "I cast Armor of Ithan to protect from a MD Zavor bite" and "the Zavor bites your AoI and splits in two"

[Giant2005]

A bunch of mages could do it manually via Metamorphosis: Mist.
They could just float around banging into Zavor as a magical mist.

I don't think that would work, the Zavor aren't described as dividing upon merely making ANY physical contact (assuming you can even call it that with mist) with creatures of magic.

They are in a sense - punches and such from a CoM cause them to split and it is reasonable to state that a punch is nothing more than banging something with your fist. I can't see why banging one with any other body part would be less effective. Although the body of mist is very different to a solid body and an argument could be made for their exclusion on those grounds but breath attacks also have the duplication effect and their contact is just as intangible as that of mist (Or Smoke if you prefer Metamorphosis: Smoke).

[flatline]

I've never known a GM to allow Eternal Flame to be anchored to anything other than a location, but since it's not clearly spelled out in the spell description, a GM could rule the other way. That was why I made my "GM willing..." comment in response to your suggestion to cast Eternal Flame on a torch.

--flatline

[flatline]

Also wouldn't CS special forces potentially have access to say... a Talisman of Negate Magic from the Black Vault? Not ready on hand, but if encountering permanent flames that were interfering with sensor sweeps, I believe a special order could be put for its acquisition, with much coded language, or to hire a mercenary who has such an item.

Perhaps I'm remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the description of Eternal Flame indicates that using magic to dispel the flame is ineffective.

--flatline

[The Beast]

A bunch of mages could do it manually via Metamorphosis: Mist.
They could just float around banging into Zavor as a magical mist.

I don't think that would work, the Zavor aren't described as dividing upon merely making ANY physical contact (assuming you can even call it that with mist) with creatures of magic.

They are in a sense - punches and such from a CoM cause them to split and it is reasonable to state that a punch is nothing more than banging something with your fist. I can't see why banging one with any other body part would be less effective. Although the body of mist is very different to a solid body and an argument could be made for their exclusion on those grounds but breath attacks also have the duplication effect and their contact is just as intangible as that of mist (Or Smoke if you prefer Metamorphosis: Smoke).

It's not any magic that causes them to split, it has to be something magical that causes damage.

[The Ruiner]

It's not any magic that causes them to split, it has to be something magical that causes damage.

I'd have to agree with this. A Zavor merely touching or comming into contact with something magical is not going to split it. Otherwise how would they even hold a magical weapon without splitting uncontrollably? The magic in question needs to be an "attack" of some kind, just bumping into them while in mist form is simply not enough.

On a side note, do Zavor eventually calm down? Does the bloodlust lessen after they have killed everything in the vicinity, or are they perminately in a "murder yo face" state of mind after splitting?

[flatline]

It's not any magic that causes them to split, it has to be something magical that causes damage.

I'd have to agree with this. A Zavor merely touching or comming into contact with something magical is not going to split it. Otherwise how would they even hold a magical weapon without splitting uncontrollably? The magic in question needs to be an "attack" of some kind, just bumping into them while in mist form is simply not enough.

On a side note, do Zavor eventually calm down? Does the bloodlust lessen after they have killed everything in the vicinity, or are they perminately in a "murder yo face" state of mind after splitting?

Well, since every Zavor currently in existence must have split from another Zavor, clearly if any Zavor are calm it must be possible for them to calm down.

I figure that the Zavor calm down when the number of Zavor in the immediate area (either through attrition or simply spreading out) falls below some critical number (probably determined by the amount of other beings in the area). Also, if there are no targets in the immediate area, the zavor probably calms down.

--flatline

[Tor]

They are in a sense - punches and such from a CoM cause them to split and it is reasonable to state that a punch is nothing more than banging something with your fist. I can't see why banging one with any other body part would be less effective.

I'm all for kicks/bites working, the key word is 'bang', an impact, something that would normally do damage.

Although the body of mist is very different to a solid body and an argument could be made for their exclusion on those grounds but breath attacks also have the duplication effect and their contact is just as intangible as that of mist (Or Smoke if you prefer Metamorphosis: Smoke).

But breath attacks are attacks, they normally inflict damage.

every Zavor currently in existence must have split from another Zavor

Not necessarily. All clones have the same stats as the original, yet they have variable dice, meaning their can be multiple lines.

I've never known a GM to allow Eternal Flame to be anchored to anything other than a location,

How does one define location? Position relative to an object.

[Svartalf]

Think they could use TW stuff? Or would that not be simple?

Aren't they too stupid to use TW guns that are useable by non mages/psychics?

[Killer Cyborg]

Think they could use TW stuff? Or would that not be simple?

Aren't they too stupid to use TW guns that are useable by non mages/psychics?

I don't know of any IQ requirement.
If they have a high enough PPE level, they can use them according to canon, AFAIK.

[flatline]

Think they could use TW stuff? Or would that not be simple?

Aren't they too stupid to use TW guns that are useable by non mages/psychics?

I don't know of any IQ requirement.
If they have a high enough PPE level, they can use them according to canon, AFAIK.

How high is high enough PPE?

As I recall, Zavor have 3d6 PPE.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Think they could use TW stuff? Or would that not be simple?

Aren't they too stupid to use TW guns that are useable by non mages/psychics?

I don't know of any IQ requirement.
If they have a high enough PPE level, they can use them according to canon, AFAIK.

How high is high enough PPE?

As I recall, Zavor have 3d6 PPE.

--flatline

I don't remember the exact amount, unfortunately.
You might be able to figure it out by sifting through old threads on the subject.
IIRC, some key information was in CB1 or the RGMG, although I don't remember what or where.

I think that on the high-end of that spectrum (the 16-18 area) that might be high enough to use TW devices. I'm not sure, though.

[Giant2005]

You need a minimum of 10 P.P.E. to be able to use TW devices.

[Tor]

I've never heard of that rule. Does that mean if a Ley Line Walker burns off his PPE closing rifts he can't use them?

Sure this wasn't a 'normal person' rule, and even then you'd need special training on how to use them that Zavor likely would not stand still for?

[Killer Cyborg]

I've never heard of that rule. Does that mean if a Ley Line Walker burns off his PPE closing rifts he can't use them?

Sure this wasn't a 'normal person' rule, and even then you'd need special training on how to use them that Zavor likely would not stand still for?

Casters can use them regardless.
The amount of PPE only matters if the person is generally unfamiliar with channelling mystic energy.

[Giant2005]

I've never heard of that rule. Does that mean if a Ley Line Walker burns off his PPE closing rifts he can't use them?

Sure this wasn't a 'normal person' rule, and even then you'd need special training on how to use them that Zavor likely would not stand still for?

Casters can use them regardless.
The amount of PPE only matters if the person is generally unfamiliar with channelling mystic energy.

I don't think casters can actually use them if they somehow don't have the 10 P.P.E. requirement. The way it is written certainly implies that practitioners of magic can sue them because they have enough PPE, not because they are practitioners of magic.
Here is the direct quote so you can make your own judgments (Merc Ops page 138):
"only characters with significant amounts of P.P.E. (10 or more P.P.E. or double that in I.S.P.) can use TW items. As a result, they are really only viable for practitioners of magic, psychics, D-Bees and supernatural beings who possess large reservoirs of P.P.E. (or I.S.P.)."

[Killer Cyborg]

I've never heard of that rule. Does that mean if a Ley Line Walker burns off his PPE closing rifts he can't use them?

Sure this wasn't a 'normal person' rule, and even then you'd need special training on how to use them that Zavor likely would not stand still for?

Casters can use them regardless.
The amount of PPE only matters if the person is generally unfamiliar with channelling mystic energy.

I don't think casters can actually use them if they somehow don't have the 10 P.P.E. requirement. The way it is written certainly implies that practitioners of magic can sue them because they have enough PPE, not because they are practitioners of magic.
Here is the direct quote so you can make your own judgments (Merc Ops page 138):
"only characters with significant amounts of P.P.E. (10 or more P.P.E. or double that in I.S.P.) can use TW items. As a result, they are really only viable for practitioners of magic, psychics, D-Bees and supernatural beings who possess large reservoirs of P.P.E. (or I.S.P.)."

Other sources (BoM and/or others) state that anybody who is able to channel mystic energy (PPE/ISP/CHI) can use TW devices, with no requirements on the amount of PPE present.
It also lists "characters with large amounts of PPE" as being able to use TW devices.

(If I was near my books, I'd look up the relevant passages, but I'm not right now.)