Painting and Elitism

[13eowulf]

So apparently over on FB there is a group of people agreeing that you shouldn't play the game if you don't fully paint your armies.

Is this how the community here is going to be?
As my first foray into minis gaming it disheartens me to learn that I will be snubbed by others, or refused a place at the table, because of paint.

[Alpha 11]

So apparently over on FB there is a group of people agreeing that you shouldn't play the game if you don't fully paint your armies.

Is this how the community here is going to be?
As my first foray into minis gaming it disheartens me to learn that I will be snubbed by others, or refused a place at the table, because of paint.

That is kind of stupid, IMO. Though I'll try to have them at least all basicly done by OH 2015.

[13eowulf]

So apparently over on FB there is a group of people agreeing that you shouldn't play the game if you don't fully paint your armies.

Is this how the community here is going to be?
As my first foray into minis gaming it disheartens me to learn that I will be snubbed by others, or refused a place at the table, because of paint.

That is kind of stupid, IMO. Though I'll try to have them at least all basicly done by OH 2015.

I would agree that it is stupid. I am glad to hear I am not alone there.

[Dirty Herby]

I think it is stupid also besides anybody who is that anal about stuff like fully painted armies and all is probably zero fun to play with. A fully painted army would/will be great but I ain't gonna say no to a game because of it.

[godsgopher]

Speaking as a painting snob myself I love to see fully painted armies. However I make a distinction between my painting and my playing. I love to paint, and frankly I'm pretty decent at it. Many other gamers in my area love to play games, but they just don't paint their stuff unless its something very special to them.

I will always play with anyone here who has an unpainted army. Robotech Tactics pieces are large enough that even someone with my eyesight can clearly see across a table what your stuff is. If the pieces were smaller I would insist on some means of identification because of my eyesight.

Anyway, your all welcome at my table if your ever in Oklahoma.

[Battle Damage]

I am also something of a painting snob, but I try to aim that snobbery at myself rather than others. I feel that every time I use an unpainted mini, God kills a kitten. If my opponent doesn't have a painted army I don't care, as long as he/she turns up with recognisable minis (as opposed to a bunch of unpainted bases with "regault" written on them).

Having said that, wargames are much improved by having completely painted armies on decent looking terrain. It really does add to the enjoyment so I encourage you to slap on some paint.

[13eowulf]

And now I am heartened to see the current responses. I shall chalk up what was going down as, well, people on facebook being people on facebook.

[Axoid]

And now I am heartened to see the current responses. I shall chalk up what was going down as, well, people on facebook being people on facebook.

This debate is nothing new. There is always the argument of painting vs playing. The majority of people fall into the "whatever" category, like many of the repsonses here. They may have a personal preference, but will play either way.

It's the vocal few (on both sides) that keep this inane argument alive. I'm definitely in the "whatever" category. I have a basement full of minis, and there are a few armies yet to have any paint, but I still love to play.

[Phaze]

I am a firm believer that I win more often with a well painted army....yea I know it sounds crazy, so let me remove my tin foil hat and explain my position.

A painted army bring confidence to the table. When people come by and stop and look at the army, they make comments like: "Nice Army," or "Those are great!". It motivates me as a player and demoralizes the other player. Yes, I know its subjective but I have seen it in action; when my army is better painted than the other player, the other player makes mistakes. I can them capitalize on those to win the game.

Best example: I have a Necron army. My Monolith is well painted and built with a micro processor inside that flashes lights and causes the engines and portal to fade on and off. I had a battle against the Tao in a tournament. Before we set up, he saw the monolith and made comments about how he would deal with the monolith...basically ignore it and shoot for the troops (at the time it was a valid tactic). But when the time came, and the monolith dropped onto the table with all of its glory, the other player could not resist the temptation and unloaded all of his firepower to bring the monolith down. This gave me time to move my troops into a position to shoot up his shooty army. I won the game because he could not resist the temptation to fire on my unit solely because of the way it looked on the table.

However, I am not going to turn you away from a game because your army isn't painted...das crazy talk. <<puts tin foil hat back on>> You got an army...lets go! Paint or not, I'm ready to play.

[Maximilian Jenius]

I just read the facebook thread in question. It didn't really line up with what the OP is saying.

The article that started it says that painting is an important part of the wargaming hobby (which it is).

Some people said they preferred fighting painted armies (their choice).

[Bad_Syntax]

Anyone who "requires" painted armies (note I said REQUIRES, not PREFERS) for a game is, well, an a-hole. Hopefully that doesn't get censored or get me warned, but it completely meets the definition.

I remember as a kid I could barely afford the miniatures, and had to walk *miles* carrying all my stuff to one bus stop, from another, halfway across a base to get to the gaming club. If they would have turned me away because my stuff wasn't painted, it would have been pretty darned traumatic for me. The wargaming community, already in decline, probably would have lost a player.

Gaming and painting are two COMPLETELY different hobbies. Trying to merge the two because "you prefer it that way" is completely lame.

If painting is an important part of the hobby, we wouldn't have pre-painted miniatures... ever.

I am NOT saying I do not prefer a nicely painted army over a poorly painted one, and even a poorly painted one over primed, and so forth. What I am saying is that preventing somebody from playing because they haven't had time/desire/funds/talent/etc to get their stuff painted is not only a horribly rude thing to do, but will push more players out of the hobby than welcome new ones, a completely stupid move.

Most people will paint their stuff, some will do great jobs, others not so much, but there will always be some people that enjoy the GAME more than the painting, and those people may show up with unpainted forces.

If painting is so darned important to you, and that person refused to paint their stuff, stop being so judgemental and offer to paint their miniatures for them.

[13eowulf]

I just read the facebook thread in question. It didn't really line up with what the OP is saying.

The article that started it says that painting is an important part of the wargaming hobby (which it is).

Some people said they preferred fighting painted armies (their choice).

The article advocates refusing to play with/against those who have unpainted armies.

[Maximilian Jenius]

http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/201 ... y.html?m=1

From the article:

"I will endeavor herein to make the case that painting is an essential part of the hobby, and a standard not to simply overlook. Like many here, I have a "live and let live apart" attitude towards folks who don't paint their miniatures. My philosophy is generally, "That's fine for you, but you'll have to find someone else to play against," though I'm wiling to make exceptions for folks whose painting is in-progress.

Still, I'm not so relativistic as to be willing to give some sort of tacit approval to those who don't paint and say that they're involvement in the hobby is just as good as mine. It's not, nor should we delude ourselves to think that it is so, simply for the sake of good feelings and avoiding offense."


He doesn't want to play against unpainted armies. That is a personal choice.

[godsgopher]

For anyone interested in having a painted army but feels they can't do justice to the miniatures. I am a commissioned painter and already have some experience on these pieces. So remember even if you can't paint yourself, there are people who enjoy actually painting and you can bribe us to love your armies too

However if Grey and Brown plastic is your style no worries, I'll still enjoying watching you get blown off the table while you stare in helpless wonder at Phaze's marching legions of colored perfection.

[Phaze]

However if Grey and Brown plastic is your style no worries, I'll still enjoying watching you get blown off the table while you stare in helpless wonder at Phaze's marching legions of colored perfection.

LOL... Now thats a signature quote right there....

[Bad_Syntax]

For anyone interested in having a painted army but feels they can't do justice to the miniatures. I am a commissioned painter and already have some experience on these pieces. So remember even if you can't paint yourself, there are people who enjoy actually painting and you can bribe us to love your armies too

How much to paint/assemble 1,221 RRT miniatures? (rhetorical, unless you want to PM me)

[Phaze]

1,221 minis...oofff.

<< Phaze turns around and sees his marching legions of colored perfection running in fear.>>

Guys, where you going?....guys?

[McPherson]

Alas this kind of mindset is pretty prevalent in some areas, sometimes its a group of vocal extremists, other times unfortunately it is the community organizers and store owners.

Personally I don't mind one way or another if your army is painted or not as long as I know whats what, however I know i'm going to have to get everything of mine painted and terrain made and painted for a chance to play at the local gaming clubs due to some rather draconic rules regarding whats allowed.

- End of Line -

[13eowulf]

http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html?m=1

From the article:

"I will endeavor herein to make the case that painting is an essential part of the hobby, and a standard not to simply overlook. Like many here, I have a "live and let live apart" attitude towards folks who don't paint their miniatures. My philosophy is generally, "That's fine for you, but you'll have to find someone else to play against," though I'm wiling to make exceptions for folks whose painting is in-progress.

Still, I'm not so relativistic as to be willing to give some sort of tacit approval to those who don't paint and say that they're involvement in the hobby is just as good as mine. It's not, nor should we delude ourselves to think that it is so, simply for the sake of good feelings and avoiding offense."


He doesn't want to play against unpainted armies. That is a personal choice.

And multiple individuals are agreeing with him, which leads to exclusion.

[Dirty Herby]

How much to paint/assemble 1,221 RRT miniatures? (rhetorical, unless you want to PM me)

Uhmm....

[Maximilian Jenius]

You can't force people to do something they don't want to do. I bet those same folks that do not want to play against unpainted armies would be willing to offer plenty of painting tips and tricks for fast and easy painting methods.

[Marcus]

Anyone who "requires" painted armies (note I said REQUIRES, not PREFERS) for a game is, well, an a-hole. Hopefully that doesn't get censored or get me warned, but it completely meets the definition.

I remember as a kid I could barely afford the miniatures, and had to walk *miles* carrying all my stuff to one bus stop, from another, halfway across a base to get to the gaming club. If they would have turned me away because my stuff wasn't painted, it would have been pretty darned traumatic for me. The wargaming community, already in decline, probably would have lost a player.

Gaming and painting are two COMPLETELY different hobbies. Trying to merge the two because "you prefer it that way" is completely lame.

If painting is an important part of the hobby, we wouldn't have pre-painted miniatures... ever.

I am NOT saying I do not prefer a nicely painted army over a poorly painted one, and even a poorly painted one over primed, and so forth. What I am saying is that preventing somebody from playing because they haven't had time/desire/funds/talent/etc to get their stuff painted is not only a horribly rude thing to do, but will push more players out of the hobby than welcome new ones, a completely stupid move.

Most people will paint their stuff, some will do great jobs, others not so much, but there will always be some people that enjoy the GAME more than the painting, and those people may show up with unpainted forces.

If painting is so darned important to you, and that person refused to paint their stuff, stop being so judgemental and offer to paint their miniatures for them.

Ok, I'll fall for this trolling... There is no right way of doing it. If people don't want to play against an unpainted army it's as much their choice as someone not painting his puppets.

[Scott Gibbons]

...I feel that every time I use an unpainted mini, God kills a kitten...

Winner of this thread, right there.

[godsgopher]

How much to paint/assemble 1,221 RRT miniatures? (rhetorical, unless you want to PM me)

PM Sent Syntax. All work is negotiable.

[Seto Kaiba]

So apparently over on FB there is a group of people agreeing that you shouldn't play the game if you don't fully paint your armies.

Is this how the community here is going to be?
As my first foray into minis gaming it disheartens me to learn that I will be snubbed by others, or refused a place at the table, because of paint.

Probably not s'much elitism as a holdover from established miniatures gaming tradition... many tournaments held for established games require that entrants have their forces painted. This isn't snobbery, it's just an acknowledgement of some basic truths:


1. When it comes the tabletop miniature gaming, the assembly and painting of the miniatures is as much a part of the hobby as the actual game itself... if it wasn't, the miniatures would be supplied assembled and painted. Customizing the assembly and painting of your miniatures is what lends your army is individuality, and makes it yours. Look at almost any established miniatures game and you'll find there's usually as much ink (or forum posts) devoted to painting, assembly, and customization as there is to actually playing the game.

2. Tournaments, tournament sponsors, and game stores are obviously going to treat public gaming events as a form of "free" advertising. Naturally they're going to want players to help the game put its best foot forward, because that helps encourage other people to get interested and involved in the game. It lends the gameplay visual appeal. It also shows that the players care about the game.



The people who don't want to play against unpainted miniatures aren't going to go away, and they're not being unreasonable. Painting your miniatures is as much a part of the hobby as playing the game. Most, like that guy who's been quoted, are perfectly happy to play against people whose painting is a WIP, but they don't want to be arsed with someone who doesn't care enough about the game to actually finish the miniatures properly.

I don't mean to sound like an arse when I say this, but I'm fully resigned to the fact that some will take it that way anyway:

If you didn't want to paint miniatures, then RRT was probably a poor choice of hobby.

(Also, as a long-time player of WH40K and WHFB with six armies between the two... you'll get no pity from me for having to paint thousands of miniatures. It's going to be a lot easier for you guys than it would for new 40K players, since you won't have to worry about painting anything other than metal and glass tones. RRT's minis don't have exposed flesh or flayed skin or bone to worry about.)

[Bad_Syntax]

1. When it comes the tabletop miniature gaming, the assembly and painting of the miniatures is as much a part of the hobby as the actual game itself... if it wasn't, the miniatures would be supplied assembled and painted. Customizing the assembly and painting of your miniatures is what lends your army is individuality, and makes it yours. Look at almost any established miniatures game and you'll find there's usually as much ink (or forum posts) devoted to painting, assembly, and customization as there is to actually playing the game.

Sorry, your opinion, and though it is shared by others, saying it as a fact is simply wrong. I myself, who *hate* painting miniatures and *hate* assembling them, prove your statement is completely incorrect.

2. Tournaments, tournament sponsors, and game stores are obviously going to treat public gaming events as a form of "free" advertising. Naturally they're going to want players to help the game put its best foot forward, because that helps encourage other people to get interested and involved in the game. It lends the gameplay visual appeal. It also shows that the players care about the game.

Again, your opinion. I care about the game, and not necessarily the visual appeal. Thus, again, just a single person (and I am *NOT* alone) proves your statement false. I'm not sure when the last time painting companies sponsored tournaments. Sure, games look better painted, NOBODY argues that, but making it mandatory or saying "no" to a player who didn't paint their stuff is extremely rude. Sure, you are entitled to your opinion and to play who you want (what if your tournament allows unpainted folk, and you have to play one, would you withdraw??? I doubt it) but just because you are entitled to that choice, your opponent should be allowed the same choice to play unpainted. Don't be hypocritical.

The people who don't want to play against unpainted miniatures aren't going to go away, and they're not being unreasonable. Painting your miniatures is as much a part of the hobby as playing the game. Most, like that guy who's been quoted, are perfectly happy to play against people whose painting is a WIP, but they don't want to be arsed with someone who doesn't care enough about the game to actually finish the miniatures properly.

Munchkins won't go away either, neither will rules lawyers, people who stink, etc. Accept the fact the game isn't always exactly what you want, and stop pulling the "my way or the high way" attitude.

If you didn't want to paint miniatures, then RRT was probably a poor choice of hobby.

Again, your opinion. I may pay people to both paint and assemble mine, because painting and assembly is *not* the same as wargaming. If it was, we'd see tons of 1/35 scale armor and race car games as those models are very popular. We'd see people with model trains on the battlefield.... we don't, because modeling<>gaming, they are *separate*, just like showering and gaming are separate. One doesn't require the other, but all of us gamers prefer the showered folk over those unshowered.

(Also, as a long-time player of WH40K and WHFB with six armies between the two... you'll get no pity from me for having to paint thousands of miniatures. It's going to be a lot easier for you guys than it would for new 40K players, since you won't have to worry about painting anything other than metal and glass tones. RRT's minis don't have exposed flesh or flayed skin or bone to worry about.)

Oh, so now there is a standard on top of just painting???? I gotta do faces and flayed skin now??? Yeah, you aren't winning this discussion with this kinda talk.

[Maximilian Jenius]

Bad Syntax,

Seto was speaking the truth and wasn't being obnoxious about it. Most tournaments require a minimum effort paint job at the very least, and that really isn't too much to ask for.

[Bad_Syntax]

Bad Syntax,

Seto was speaking the truth and wasn't being obnoxious about it. Most tournaments require a minimum effort paint job at the very least, and that really isn't too much to ask for.

"most".

Tournaments for what game? I play games all the time, and have never played a tournament.

Again, ya'll are assuming that your opinions are somehow facts, and they are just opinions, and do not represent the majority of gamers. You opinions represent the small subset of gamers that enjoy painting as much as painting.

I blame GW and the whole "painted force, miniature must match stats" mentality, though that is my opinion. I know other companies have copied that, but it doesn't mean "all", and plenty of GW tournaments were run with unpainted armies and everybody had fun.

A "minimum paint job" to one is not the same as a "minimum paint job" to another. Soon as you say X, next week it'll be X+1 until you get what you want, all the while players with X-1 are being alienated.

Sorry, preferring painted armies sure, teasing folks for their ugly armies sure, but not letting them play? No thanks, that kind of play is an abomination to the whole concept of gaming.

Go paint your dolls and enter them into the painting contests, where the unpainted folks can't even enter (because you know, its a PAINTING contest). When it comes to a game, adding a requirement is stupid.

How about I say in MY games, I don't wanna play against overweight folks, or black folks, or folks without a nice haircut, or those without a suit and tie. Its the same thing. If you can't look past the lack of a paint job to enjoy yourself, you really need to look a bit deeper inside.

[Maximilian Jenius]

Quite a few tournaments also award points based off quality of painting done to an army.

Guys, this isn't a new thing. It is really part of the hobby.

And did you really compare people who prefer to play against painted armies to racists?

[godsgopher]

Syntax this is obviously something you feel very strongly about. But no one here is saying that is what we are wanting for Robotech Tactics. And while many, myself included are major supporters of miniature painting, we try and not let ourselves forget that not everyone is into the hobby. I love seeing what guys into the hobby side of the game do with their stuff. But like most people when I'm ready for a game I just want to play. My only personal exception to this rule is when I can't easily recognize what your pieces are on the table.

Im a fan of Infinity and have had several unpleasant experiences when I mistook one silver blob on the table for another silver bob on the table. Nor have my experiences in this been unique so my group generally encourages everyone to put some color on them so we can tell them apart. I believe this can also be a problem in other games like Warmachine. After a while when you have several hundred different units in a game it can get very confusing if they all start looking the same when unpainted. And yes there are even players who are so obsessed with winning that they do everything in their power to make sure you can't tell what they are placing on the table to squeeze any advantage they can out of the situation.

I do not for see that as a problem in RTT. The miniatures are large and distinct. so I will be more than glad to play against unpainted miniatures.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry, your opinion, and though it is shared by others, saying it as a fact is simply wrong. I myself, who *hate* painting miniatures and *hate* assembling them, prove your statement is completely incorrect.

Er... I hate to break it to you, friend, but that's not an opinion. It's an objectively demonstrable fact that the assembly and painting of the miniatures is as much a part of the hobby as the game itself. The paints and other tools are significant profit centers for companies like Games Workshop, and the hobby press has long been in the habit of devoting significant print space to painting and customizing tips, tricks, etc.

Just because you personally don't like painting or assembly doesn't mean it's not a significant part of the hobby... it just means you're ill-suited to the hobby.

Again, your opinion. I care about the game, and not necessarily the visual appeal. Thus, again, just a single person (and I am *NOT* alone) proves your statement false.

I'm afraid your unseemly haste to shout "Nu-uh!" has caused a failure of reading comprehension on your part...

Many in the hobby enjoy the assembly and painting aspect, but the remark you're objecting to has to do with what the tournament hosts, sponsors, and game stores are interested in, and why THEY usually put the "Your army must be painted" rule in. Most people are going to assess the "complete package" of the game, including the visual appeal. Tournaments that DON'T require your army to be painted are far less common than those that require it.

You might not like it, but them's the facts.

Munchkins won't go away either, neither will rules lawyers, people who stink, etc. Accept the fact the game isn't always exactly what you want, and stop pulling the "my way or the high way" attitude.

I find it kind of comical that you're trying to equate serious miniature gamers who care about painting their minis with undesirable stereotypes like rules lawyers, munchkins, or people with poor hygene. You're not going to make a valid point that way, or at all... the attempted character assassination isn't going to help your argument either.

Yes, people with antagonistic behavior are not going to magically vanish, but most serious tabletop gamers lump the ones who won't paint their army in with those other negative cliches. I don't care one way or the other, honestly... I'm just pointing out the reality of the industry and WHY it's often a requirement for many sponsored events like tournaments.

Put simply, you are the ambassadors for this new game... and if you don't put your best foot forward, the game is NOT going to take off.

Again, your opinion.

Actually, that's the only thing I posted that was my opinion... the rest was just an assortment of facts you don't seem to want to accept. The fact remains that painting and assembly is a significant part of the tabletop hobby, both on the business side and the player side. If it wasn't, tabletop hobby magazines, podcasts, and blogs wouldn't devote huge amounts of time and energy to assembly, customization, and painting tips, tricks, and showcases.

Oh, so now there is a standard on top of just painting???? I gotta do faces and flayed skin now??? Yeah, you aren't winning this discussion with this kinda talk.

*sigh* When you're ready to stop being hysterical, you let me know m'kay?

For the record, I was making an observation about the types of painting work and the relative levels of difficulty. Painting skin, bone, flayed flesh, and cloth are a LOT harder and require a lot more attention to detail than painting machinery. You're not painting people for RRT... you're painting machinery, and that's got lots of regular contours and flat, low-detail surfaces, which makes it "easy mode" for painting. Doing exposed faces, skin, or more morbid details like flayed flesh or exposed bone of the kind you find in some of the more gruesome lines from Games Workshop take a lot more attention to detail, precision, and layering effects to get looking good.

"most".

Tournaments for what game? I play games all the time, and have never played a tournament.

I do Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40,000, Battlefleet Gothic, and Warmachine... I've been a competitive tabletop gamer for eleven years now. I have yet to encounter a tournament (in the five states in which I've competed) that did not require your army to be painted.

In fact, most of them actually have a minimum number of colors required in your paint scheme (usually 3-4) to ensure that you won't just spray primer on your models and call them "painted".

Again, ya'll are assuming that your opinions are somehow facts, and they are just opinions, and do not represent the majority of gamers. You opinions represent the small subset of gamers that enjoy painting as much as painting.

I'm afraid not, friend. I'm speaking from CONSIDERABLE experience as a long-time tabletop gamer and I'm relaying simple truths about the industry.

I blame GW and the whole "painted force, miniature must match stats" mentality, though that is my opinion. I know other companies have copied that, but it doesn't mean "all", and plenty of GW tournaments were run with unpainted armies and everybody had fun.

It's pretty damn common, actually... and Games Workshop didn't start it either. This is pretty much the standard for the industry, which DOES consider assembly, customization, and painting to be among the most important parts of the hobby... to the extent that many tournaments award bonuses to the players with the best-painted army or even have separate contests revolving entirely around the assembly, customization, and painting of individual miniatures (e.g. Games Workshop's Golden Demon competition).

A "minimum paint job" to one is not the same as a "minimum paint job" to another. Soon as you say X, next week it'll be X+1 until you get what you want, all the while players with X-1 are being alienated.

That's why most tournaments actually have a definition of what a "minimum paint job" is... usually 3-4 colors, which constitutes a bare minimum paint job of a basecoat, highlight, and two detail colors, the sort of thing you can knock together in twenty minutes with zero skill.

Sorry, preferring painted armies sure, teasing folks for their ugly armies sure, but not letting them play? No thanks, that kind of play is an abomination to the whole concept of gaming.

I've... actually never seen anyone tease people for an "ugly" army. In 11 years, I've never honestly seen that happen. Usually when someone has an awkward paint job, players offer them painting tips or invite them to store-sponsored painting workshops, which are a great way to build the gaming community.

Go paint your dolls and enter them into the painting contests, where the unpainted folks can't even enter (because you know, its a PAINTING contest). When it comes to a game, adding a requirement is stupid.

How about I say in MY games, I don't wanna play against overweight folks, or black folks, or folks without a nice haircut, or those without a suit and tie. Its the same thing. If you can't look past the lack of a paint job to enjoy yourself, you really need to look a bit deeper inside.

Your hysterical condemnations of reality are entertaining and all, but only serve to draw a line under that you've got no idea what you're talking about. The assembly, painting, and customization of miniatures is quite literally a major aspect of the hobby (to the extent that it is a major profit center for the tabletop gaming companies and a near-omnipresent subject in the hobby press).

Most people don't give a damn if your army is painted or not in casual play. You'll probably get a fair few people offer you advice on painting though, because it IS such a major part of the hobby. For tournament play, a lot of stores DO require that your army be painted. That's just reality, because these stores and the tournament sponsors use these events to promote the game, and they want to make sure that they present an impressive profile to the audience.

[Kendachi]

I think its funny, blame GW for the paint requirement. GW's 'ard boyz tournaments were the only ones I ever played in without painting requirements.

[Bad_Syntax]

Saying something is true because that is what you believe, and what you see, does NOT make it true.

Saying somebody is hysterical, who wasn't in any way, is yet another mistake.

Like any irrational fanatics, I just can't argue with people set in their ways, who can only see their ways, and who think their little world is the entire world.

So I'll just agree to disagree. I'll bring painted armies sometimes, and like usual, nobody will really care, as we are all there to enjoy a game, not brag about our little painted dolls. I'm sure I'm totally clueless, because I own like 2 miniatures or something and just started playing this morning.

[Seto Kaiba]

Saying something is true because that is what you believe, and what you see, does NOT make it true.

How fortunate for me, and the other people who've corroborated what I've said, that I've done nothing but report facts in plain language and speak from over a decade of experience with tournament play in multiple -tabletop games.

In casual play, most people won't give a damn one way or the other if you paint your army or not... but, in all honestly, you'd best expect people to ask you why you haven't painted your army. You'd should also be prepared to learn the hard way that, should you choose to participate in tournament play, in most tabletop game tournaments you're REQUIRED to have your miniatures painted. If you don't paint your miniatures, a lot of folks will assume you're a newbie who just doesn't know how yet, so you'd probably better expect a lot of well-meaning folks to offer you advice on that if you play at a game store.

It's not an elitism thing. It's not a discrimination thing. It's not a bullying thing. The assembly, painting, and customization of miniatures is a major part of the tabletop gaming hobby and has been almost since the hobby's inception. If you're going to pursue the hobby, people who are also involved in the hobby will, at points, be a little weirded out that you've so averse to one of the most important parts of the hobby.

One of the reasons I love tabletop gaming is that it's a social hobby. It's like golf for geeks... in that it's ludicrously expensive, it's as much about shooting the breeze with your buddies as it is about playing the actual game, and that it's absolutely possible to get blind stinking drunk while doing so if the venue permits it. The most likely outcome of showing up for casual play with an unpainted army is receiving a bunch of painting tips from well-meaning tabletop veterans, because that's just how tabletop gamers roll. They'll encourage you to paint your forces because they'll want you to enjoy the hobby to the fullest.

Saying somebody is hysterical, who wasn't in any way, is yet another mistake.

Then please, offer another explanation for your bizarre windmill crusade Mr. Quixote. You're certainly not motivated by knowledge of the tabletop gaming industry... by your own admission! You've been involved with a single game for all of a day. I've been involved in multiple games for eleven years, so I speak with the voice of long experience and considerable enthusiasm for the hobby. (Not to mention as a subscriber who's got years of back issues from several different tabletop hobby magazines, and therefore roughly enough articles on painting tips and tricks to carpet Brasil.)

Like any irrational fanatics, I just can't argue with people set in their ways, who can only see their ways, and who think their little world is the entire world.

Do you argue with yourself so often that you've had to form preferences about how you do it?

[rosco60559]

Wow. Guys relax. B_S go enjoy your figs and the bare plastic. Seto if you get a game against him I hope your stuff looks good while either winning or losing.

I've got to the point with gw stuff, b-tech, and my other various games I enjoy building and painting almost more than the games themselves. Sadly my rrt stuff will be waiting in line on the workbench since gw updated the space wolves with several new kits.

As for elitist pains, how many of you guys participate in adepticon's 40k team tournament? Rule is no unpainted figs, so if you show and have 2 units of unpainted guys they get pulled and you're playing under points. It's embarrassing since it's big money to get into that tournament.

There's a tournament circuit near me that some people I know started and they use the same rule and wonder why there aren't more people showing up. The answer they don't like hearing is not everyone has the time to paint what they need so they don't go.

[Bad_Syntax]

I said it was my first time sarcastically (many people in here knew that, and have seen me rant incessantly in the RRT comments forum), I have been gaming for much much longer.

I thought it was funny that instantly people thought it to be true, so I went with the sarcasm bit.

Finding anybody to even play RRT will be so hard, that eliminating even 1 player who hasn't painted stuff may mean your playing by yourself.

I am still waiting for PB to make me a flyer I can put up in my game store. As of now, I'm thinking I'll just have to cut the box they gave me up so I can use that as the advertisement, then tape a schedule to the bottom.

[Spinachcat]

Just paint your minis.

There's nothing elite about actually showing up with paint. The Warhammer rules work fine - base coat + 3 colors and you're good. Even kids can do that and field some okay looking models.

And its not that expensive to have your models done for you. There are LOTS of hobbyists who love painting and assembling more than playing so they hire out their services. There's even international options too.

I've been a 40k player for decades and only clowns show up without paint. It's always eyeroll time, unless we know the guy just got his army or he's a noob who is just starting. The "I refuse to paint" guys get ostracized pretty quickly. It's universal that an amateur paint job deserves respect...unless they're trying to boast. Then it's open season.

RTT is going to be easy for even amateur painters. You probably have less than 30 figs to paint to field your initial army. That's probably less than 10 hours of actual painting time spread over a week, even for a beginner if they are following a good regime of instructions.

[13eowulf]

Just paint your minis.

There's nothing elite about actually showing up with paint. The Warhammer rules work fine - base coat + 3 colors and you're good. Even kids can do that and field some okay looking models.

And its not that expensive to have your models done for you. There are LOTS of hobbyists who love painting and assembling more than playing so they hire out their services. There's even international options too.

I've been a 40k player for decades and only clowns show up without paint. It's always eyeroll time, unless we know the guy just got his army or he's a noob who is just starting. The "I refuse to paint" guys get ostracized pretty quickly. It's universal that an amateur paint job deserves respect...unless they're trying to boast. Then it's open season.

RTT is going to be easy for even amateur painters. You probably have less than 30 figs to paint to field your initial army. That's probably less than 10 hours of actual painting time spread over a week, even for a beginner if they are following a good regime of instructions.

So now RTT can only be done one way, and that is the 'paint or get shunned quick' way? That is how we are encouraging people to play? If you arent already a seasoned modeler get with the program or get out? And dont you dare be here to play game if you arent here to paint? I mean you are already calling those who dont do it your way names, how do you think that looks to someone just getting into minis-gaming with RTT?
I think I know what you mean by eyeroll time.

Edit:
I also want to address they "pay someone to do it" argument.
A Battlecry is roughly 100 individual models (each Valkyrie being 3 models, Fighter, Guardian, and Battloid modes).
I have found estimates of ~$8-$25 per model, on the conservative side.
To have a Battlecry painted that is $800 - $2,500. That isnt cheap.

[godsgopher]

I also want to address they "pay someone to do it" argument.
A Battlecry is roughly 100 individual models (each Valkyrie being 3 models, Fighter, Guardian, and Battloid modes).
I have found estimates of ~$8-$25 per model, on the conservative side.
To have a Battlecry painted that is $800 - $2,500. That isnt cheap.

I'm going to have to back 13eowulf on that on. Getting stuff painted isn't cheap. I'm a commission painter myself so I can tell you a great deal of work goes into painting. The Achilles heel of RTT is its a game of many pieces. Most miniature games coming out these days are dedicated skirmish games. RTT starts at the skirmish level and soars upwards! That's not a criticism consequently. I would love to play a game with hundreds of pods and Veritechs swirling in table top chaos. But the point being that does mean quite a few pieces to paint.

Now all that said. Its perfectly do'able. And guys like me are perfectly happy painting one miniature for someone or the entire set. In the end its up to you the player. How much does the game mean to you?

[Vang]

I don't see why you guys are so bent out of shape over this. It's not that big a deal. So one group of games wants to be exclusionary over paint? Let them! You don't have to include them in your Robotech games. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill before someone calls in the Gamer Pope*. He's got better things to do, like trying to figure whether Palladium character creation is actually as "Fun and Easy" as some have claimed. ;P


*In case anyone here is hopelessly humorless, the Gamer Pope is not real, he's a figment of imagination, an unfinished bit of background, a blot of dialogue, a crumb of an adventure hook, a fragment of overdone roleplaying. There's more of Munchausen than of Munchkin about him, whatever you think!

[glitterboy2098]

if you go with a service, paying someone to do it gets pricy. and not everyone is lucky enough to have a friend who'd be willing to do it for less. (i have a few myself, but they're now on the other side of the country.. shipping costs would kill any money saved.)

that said, generally you could primerand base coat using sprays, and then focus on just major details (cockpits, a few larger areas of a different color) pretty quickly, and that will usually at least get you to a point those eliteists shut up. and you don't have to super-detail everything in one go.. do the basics above, and then you can spend time getting more detail on later. that way if elitists keep bugging you about the quality, you can say your working on it in all honesty.

generally though, the elitists are jerks.. if your local gaming scene only has a few, feel free to just brush them off.

[Maximilian Jenius]

Miniatures are not cheap. The tools and materials you need to assemble miniatures are not cheap. Even the products specially made to transport miniatures are not cheap.

Miniatures are time consuming. Properly done assembly is time consuming. Paint prep is time consuming and requires patience. Painting can be extremely time consuming.

If you do not have money, time, and patience in abundance that you can apply to this hobby it will not be as rewarding to you as it will be to someone who has the extra money and time to do it right.

This is not a hobby to rush into, and hearing someone so adamantly declare that they wont paint something that is provided unpainted in a hobby that revolves around aesthetics is dissapointing. I do not think I would want to spend what time I have to play with another player who puts no or little effort into the game when my spare time is spent making sure that if we did play it would be an aesthetically pleasing battlefield for both player and bystander to watch.

[Seto Kaiba]

As for elitist pains, how many of you guys participate in adepticon's 40k team tournament? Rule is no unpainted figs, so if you show and have 2 units of unpainted guys they get pulled and you're playing under points. It's embarrassing since it's big money to get into that tournament.

That's not unexpected though... the tournament at Adepticon is as much a promotional event for 40K as it is an actual tournament, they naturally want the players to make their product look good because customizing your army is as much a part of the hobby as playing the game.

Yeah, it sucks if you get a unit pulled have to play under-points, but that's not the sort of thing you don't have a lot of advance notice of, and if you have even a vague clue what you're doing you can assembly-line paint an entire army's worth of space marines in under twelve hours. Spread that out across a week or two, and you're looking at an hour or less of painting a day to get your whole army tournament-ready.

There's a tournament circuit near me that some people I know started and they use the same rule and wonder why there aren't more people showing up. The answer they don't like hearing is not everyone has the time to paint what they need so they don't go.

That's unfortunate, but pretty rare... I've done 40K tournaments around the country for ages, and almost every store I've played at has players who offer paint-to-order services for the too-busy-to-paint and an assortment of painting workshops for those who don't know how. It's one of the reasons it's such a great hobby... you've got a lot of helpful people. My local store has even been known to give three or four free bottles of Citadel paint to newbies attending the painting workshops.

So now RTT can only be done one way, and that is the 'paint or get shunned quick' way? [...]

*sigh* Nobody is saying that, so please stow the hilarious outrage.

Painting your army is one of the basic realities of getting involved in a tabletop game. It's one of the most prominent aspects of the hobby. That's why most tournaments DO insist that your army be painted. That isn't unreasonable, and it's not hard either.

That is how we are encouraging people to play? If you arent already a seasoned modeler get with the program or get out? And dont you dare be here to play game if you arent here to paint? [...]

That's just a fundamental reality of the tabletop gaming hobby... these models are supplied unpainted and unassembled because you are ENCOURAGED to make the army yours through the way you pose and paint your models. If it takes a while to get it done, everyone will understand. Nobody's going to judge you for not having your army painted right away because there IS a learning curve, and almost everyone who's in the hobby has had to tackle that learning curve at some point. Many will offer you advice and tips on the assembly, painting, and customization of miniatures. This is a social hobby, after all.

People will DEFINITELY understand that it's going to take months or even years to get your army painted when they find out how many models you're trying to tackle all at once.

I also want to address they "pay someone to do it" argument.
A Battlecry is roughly 100 individual models (each Valkyrie being 3 models, Fighter, Guardian, and Battloid modes).
I have found estimates of ~$8-$25 per model, on the conservative side.
To have a Battlecry painted that is $800 - $2,500. That isnt cheap.

No, it most definitely not cheap... but the pay-to-paint method is only really appropriate for people who want their whole army painted up and tournament-ready in a big damn hurry. There are no tournaments ready for RRT, so you have literally nobody rushing you to get your army put together and painted.


I think a big part of the problem that RRT is going to run into is that people threw their money at RRT just because it was Robotech, and didn't really appreciate the commitment of time and energy it takes to get invested in the tabletop gaming hobby.

[13eowulf]

So now RTT can only be done one way, and that is the 'paint or get shunned quick' way? [...]

*sigh* Nobody is saying that, so please stow the hilarious outrage.

Actually that is what Spinachcat said when he called people with a lack of paint names, and the explicitly mentioned ostracization. You know, in the post I quoted and was responding to. The one you edited out when quoting me to remove the very context you sought to question.

That is how we are encouraging people to play? If you arent already a seasoned modeler get with the program or get out? And dont you dare be here to play game if you arent here to paint? [...]

That's just a fundamental reality of the tabletop gaming hobby... these models are supplied unpainted and unassembled because you are ENCOURAGED to make the army yours through the way you pose and paint your models. If it takes a while to get it done, everyone will understand. Nobody's going to judge you for not having your army painted right away because there IS a learning curve, and almost everyone who's in the hobby has had to tackle that learning curve at some point. Many will offer you advice and tips on the assembly, painting, and customization of miniatures. This is a social hobby, after all.

People will DEFINITELY understand that it's going to take months or even years to get your army painted when they find out how many models you're trying to tackle all at once.

So you are answering ‘yes’ to those question. No one should be interested in playing the game over painting it. It is your way or the highway. Paint over play or GTHO?
THAT is encouraging to potential newcomers.

I also want to address they "pay someone to do it" argument.
A Battlecry is roughly 100 individual models (each Valkyrie being 3 models, Fighter, Guardian, and Battloid modes).
I have found estimates of ~$8-$25 per model, on the conservative side.
To have a Battlecry painted that is $800 - $2,500. That isnt cheap.

No, it most definitely not cheap... but the pay-to-paint method is only really appropriate for people who want their whole army painted up and tournament-ready in a big damn hurry. There are no tournaments ready for RRT, so you have literally nobody rushing you to get your army put together and painted.


I think a big part of the problem that RRT is going to run into is that people threw their money at RRT just because it was Robotech, and didn't really appreciate the commitment of time and energy it takes to get invested in the tabletop gaming hobby.

Actually when you have people agreeing with and promoting the idea of shunning/ostracizing people with unpainted armies that is, well, that is rushing those who prefer playing over arts & crafts to paint, and worse that is turning people off getting into the game at all, especially with an already limited pool of potential players.
What should be happening is encouraging all types to get into the game, both Play over paint and paint over play, and not telling one side they are wrong and have to do it the other way. Both are legitimate ways of approaching the game, and will go further to ensure success of the game, as opposed to ostracizing on faction and reducing chances of success.

Then again elitists would probably rather see the game fail than sully themselves with those feel differently from themselves. This is why elitism is a problem, and not a valued trait.

[BuzzardB]

Unless your playing Warhammer and have a million opponents to choose form people will probably take whatever games they can against whoever they can. Painted armies or not.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually that is what Spinachcat said when he called people with a lack of paint names, and the explicitly mentioned ostracization. You know, in the post I quoted and was responding to. The one you edited out when quoting me to remove the very context you sought to question.

Eh... not quite. While he was being quite blunt about it (knock it off, spinachcat, that's MY job!) he was making a very good point, not calling people who don't paint names. Just for you, I'll make the EXACT SAME POINT, but I'll do it with all the gentleness and subtlety I'm renowned for (never demonstrating)*.

The point is that painting your miniatures is such a basic and fundamental part of the hobby for a tabletop gamer that not doing it is going to raise eyebrows. It's just due diligence, and if you're unwilling to do the bare minimum and you're not a newbie in need of guidance, you ARE going to get marked out as "that guy" who won't even put in the bare minimum expected effort. If you cop the same "I refuse to paint" attitude you're displaying here, you WILL get shunned by many players... and not just because you refuse to paint your miniatures.


* Truth in advertising, folks!

So you are answering ‘yes’ to those question. No one should be interested in playing the game over painting it. It is your way or the highway. Paint over play or GTHO?
THAT is encouraging to potential newcomers.

Most people understand that assembly and painting of the miniatures is a fundamental part of the hobby... the people getting into the game after the Kickstarter are going to be aware of what they're getting into, unlike the people who blindly threw their money at RRT because it had the word "Robotech" on it. What's going to drive them away (and, indeed, has already done considerable damage to RRT's prospects) is this highly visible demonstration that you not only completely missed the point of a tabletop game, but you've also got so little love for the game that you can't take the time to make your miniatures look good.

With fans like you representing it, this game has no chance of success... someone who finds the basics of the tabletop gaming hobby somehow offensive or an imposition is not going to convince anyone that this game is worth playing. It'll do a fine job of the exact opposite, showing people you don't think the game's worth your time enough to do even a basic paintjob for your miniatures.

Actually when you have people agreeing with and promoting the idea of shunning/ostracizing people with unpainted armies that is, well, that is rushing those who prefer playing over arts & crafts to paint, and worse that is turning people off getting into the game at all, especially with an already limited pool of potential players.

Let me put it to you another way... between this "the people who paint are bullying me" garbage and your general attitude towards the entire hobby, you are GUARANTEED to get shunned because your attitude is toxic.

People will understand and be entirely supportive if you're not comfortable painting. They will offer to help. They will offer pointers. They'll suggest paints, brushes, and other supplies. They'll link you to tutorials or invite you to workshops. But they will, however, expect you to eventually do due diligence and paint your frigging miniatures. It's a part of the hobby you implicitly accepted when you started gaming.

Then again elitists would probably rather see the game fail than sully themselves with those feel differently from themselves. This is why elitism is a problem, and not a valued trait.

This mistaken belief that you're somehow a victim or being unfairly put-upon will only serve to drive people away from the game by demonstrating that you don't even care enough to the basics... and would rather make a fuss than do things that even a twelve year old knows are pretty much standard practice.

[Bad_Syntax]

I don't think people are understanding that tabletop gaming isn't just 40K/Warmachine.

There are *thousands* of "tabletop games" out there. I have, and I'm not kidding, HUNDREDS of thousands of .5" cardboard counters for various "tabletop games", hardly any of which have miniatures even as an option. I mean, go take a look at Avalanche Press stuff, Munchkin, and any number of THOUSANDS of games on board game geek. Most of which do not even have miniatures. In fact, very few lines do have miniatures because producing them requires a much larger fan base. Heck, look at games like X-Wing, VERY popular, nobody has to paint stuff. Or Zombicide, which is also VERY popular, and very few people paint their stuff.

Just because the games you surround yourself with are big into painting, that doesn't, not by any stretch of the imagination, mean "all" games. In fact, the vast majority of table top games are not played in games stores, but at people's houses among friends.

This whole conversation is stupid. The people defending it simply do not realize that they are not the majority, and that there is a thousand games that don't even have miniature lines for every one that does. They flaunt their years of experience and the games they play, but I have well over twice the years and orders of magnitude more games under my belt that very few of even had miniatures, much less painted or unpainted ones.

These guys have no idea what they are talking about. They'll argue, because on the internet nobody is ever wrong, and they can continue to live in their little worlds, requiring painted miniatures, while the rest of the world doesn't give a crap. They own a game or three, and have spent lots of time painting up their armies, and now feel entitled to dictate how games should be played.

So, I say to those of you that know these "painted or get out" comments are simply stupid, leave the topic alone. You'll never convert these relatively new gamers, nor expand their horizons. They have their way of thinking, and if you offered 1000 pieces of proof they are wrong they would steadfastly refuse to change their minds.

The wiser of us know they are full of crap, have no power to enforce this as a rule, and are just trying to show the world that they are better people because they think miniature gaming is a collectible thing (like those little figurines of grandma's), when in reality is just a bunch of men playing with toys.

[13eowulf]

Actually that is what Spinachcat said when he called people with a lack of paint names, and the explicitly mentioned ostracization. You know, in the post I quoted and was responding to. The one you edited out when quoting me to remove the very context you sought to question.

Eh... not quite. While he was being quite blunt about it (knock it off, spinachcat, that's MY job!) he was making a very good point, not calling people who don't paint names. Just for you, I'll make the EXACT SAME POINT, but I'll do it with all the gentleness and subtlety I'm renowned for (never demonstrating)*.

The point is that painting your miniatures is such a basic and fundamental part of the hobby for a tabletop gamer that not doing it is going to raise eyebrows. It's just due diligence, and if you're unwilling to do the bare minimum and you're not a newbie in need of guidance, you ARE going to get marked out as "that guy" who won't even put in the bare minimum expected effort. If you cop the same "I refuse to paint" attitude you're displaying here, you WILL get shunned by many players... and not just because you refuse to paint your miniatures.

* Truth in advertising, folks!

Specifically spinachcat referred to all people who don’t put a priority on painting as “clowns”. This is name calling, and it is directed at an entire group, not just myself.
Thanks for playing though.

As for the rest of it, my objection was, and is, towards a displayed elitist attitude by some that if you don’t paint then you will be refused a place at the gaming table.

There are multiple reasons why models may not be painted, and the elitest condensation of the attitude that the only reason is refusal is hoopla and untrue.
The position that one must appease the elitest by putting forth token efforts to appease them in order to be deigned a spot at the gaming table is poppycock. (every time someone says ‘show an effort to have tried to paint’ is what this is referring to)

What I am hearing from you here is that Robotech fans have no right to attempt to get into RTT unless they want to paint. And that is just wrong. If someone who has no other interest in minis gaming decides they want to give RTT a go because it is Robotech then they should be encouraged, not looked down upon, and forced to conform to an aspect of minis gaming they have no interest in. If they later on decide they want to go there, great, but it should not be a requirement to get started.

So you are answering ‘yes’ to those question. No one should be interested in playing the game over painting it. It is your way or the highway. Paint over play or GTHO?
THAT is encouraging to potential newcomers.

Most people understand that assembly and painting of the miniatures is a fundamental part of the hobby... the people getting into the game after the Kickstarter are going to be aware of what they're getting into, unlike the people who blindly threw their money at RRT because it had the word "Robotech" on it. What's going to drive them away (and, indeed, has already done considerable damage to RRT's prospects) is this highly visible demonstration that you not only completely missed the point of a tabletop game, but you've also got so little love for the game that you can't take the time to make your miniatures look good.

With fans like you representing it, this game has no chance of success... someone who finds the basics of the tabletop gaming hobby somehow offensive or an imposition is not going to convince anyone that this game is worth playing. It'll do a fine job of the exact opposite, showing people you don't think the game's worth your time enough to do even a basic paintjob for your miniatures.

If people want to paint, great. I am not anti-paint, as you seem to want to ‘paint’ me.
But with people posting articles and sentiments about refusing to game with those who don’t paint and making up artificial requirements regard paint, followed with threats of ostricization. THAT is what will drive people away. Some are in it for the game, not arts & crafts. Trying to force everyone to be in it for arts & crafts first and playing the game second will only drive away potenial players who may over time have enaged in the arts & crafts after they had some fun playing. There is no valid reason to attempt to exclude people because they would rather play than paint.

Not Painting =/= not invested. This is a fallacy that I have seen only come from those who wish to exclude more casual players from the game.

Actually when you have people agreeing with and promoting the idea of shunning/ostracizing people with unpainted armies that is, well, that is rushing those who prefer playing over arts & crafts to paint, and worse that is turning people off getting into the game at all, especially with an already limited pool of potential players.

Let me put it to you another way... between this "the people who paint are bullying me" garbage and your general attitude towards the entire hobby, you are GUARANTEED to get shunned because your attitude is toxic.

People will understand and be entirely supportive if you're not comfortable painting. They will offer to help. They will offer pointers. They'll suggest paints, brushes, and other supplies. They'll link you to tutorials or invite you to workshops. But they will, however, expect you to eventually do due diligence and paint your frigging miniatures. It's a part of the hobby you implicitly accepted when you started gaming.

There are lots of people who paint that I have encountered who are great. It is only a certain element of elitest that have expressed a flat refusal to allow unpainted armies a place at the table who are trying to be bullies, to use your word.
The only toxic attitude is from that camp, by starting with threats of exclusion before people can even be interested in help with paint.
You want to be helpful? Don’t start off threatening to exclude people. Let them find their own way to that aspect of the hobby, and until them, why not enjoy some games along the way, as was mentioned before, it is not like there currently is a lot of players to choose from, why would you want to exclude others?

Then again elitists would probably rather see the game fail than sully themselves with those feel differently from themselves. This is why elitism is a problem, and not a valued trait.

This mistaken belief that you're somehow a victim or being unfairly put-upon will only serve to drive people away from the game by demonstrating that you don't even care enough to the basics... and would rather make a fuss than do things that even a twelve year old knows are pretty much standard practice.

When someone threatens another with exclusion they are trying to victimise that person. I am refusing to be such.
I have seen people told by some in the elitist camp that taking their kids outside to play when they could be painting is ‘doing it wrong’, and they should be teaching them to paint instead.
That kind of attitude will do more to drive potential players away than anything else.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Going back to my original post: The initial question/post arose from conversations on a RTT facebook page.
There a group of painting elitists where quite vocally and quite aggressively agreeing with the notion that those who don’t paint (in some unspecified ‘acceptable’ time period) should be refused a spot at the gaming table.
Not tournament tables, any gaming table.
As a new game, currently with limited players, many potentials of whom are new to mini gaming, and/or only in it for the gaming side or the Robotech aspect, it is my position that they should be greeted warmly, welcomed, and if they want to basic assemble then get right into playing, so be it.
Hopefully later on they get into the Arts & Crafts side. Maybe playing more and more will encourage that, who knows. Or maybe not, but at least if they keep playing there will be someone to play with/against.
As opposed to a row of elitist minis hobbyists standing shoulder to shoulder, arms crossed, going “Nuh-uh, no spot for you here unless you appease the paint gods, either by finished project, or sacrificial efforts” while they look down their noses at these new people. (This was phrased for effect, as that is what was coming across when I made the initial post, figuratively, not literally).

As for my own self, I am not opposed to painting. I have even put thought into colour schemes. But I abhor elitism, and I will not put forth some token effort to appease them before (or if) I have the inclination to do so of my own volition, time pending. And the reactions of people like yourself Seto decrease my desire to do so.

Fortunately based on this thread it appears that there are many more willing to game with those interested in the game over arts & crafts than not, and/or my own future unpainted army. And this is a good thing. If only the elitist were not so damned obnoxiously loud, they are doing the most towards driving away new players.

[13eowulf]

I don't think people are understanding that tabletop gaming isn't just 40K/Warmachine.

There are *thousands* of "tabletop games" out there. I have, and I'm not kidding, HUNDREDS of thousands of .5" cardboard counters for various "tabletop games", hardly any of which have miniatures even as an option. I mean, go take a look at Avalanche Press stuff, Munchkin, and any number of THOUSANDS of games on board game geek. Most of which do not even have miniatures. In fact, very few lines do have miniatures because producing them requires a much larger fan base. Heck, look at games like X-Wing, VERY popular, nobody has to paint stuff. Or Zombicide, which is also VERY popular, and very few people paint their stuff.

Just because the games you surround yourself with are big into painting, that doesn't, not by any stretch of the imagination, mean "all" games. In fact, the vast majority of table top games are not played in games stores, but at people's houses among friends.

This whole conversation is stupid. The people defending it simply do not realize that they are not the majority, and that there is a thousand games that don't even have miniature lines for every one that does. They flaunt their years of experience and the games they play, but I have well over twice the years and orders of magnitude more games under my belt that very few of even had miniatures, much less painted or unpainted ones.

These guys have no idea what they are talking about. They'll argue, because on the internet nobody is ever wrong, and they can continue to live in their little worlds, requiring painted miniatures, while the rest of the world doesn't give a crap. They own a game or three, and have spent lots of time painting up their armies, and now feel entitled to dictate how games should be played.

So, I say to those of you that know these "painted or get out" comments are simply stupid, leave the topic alone. You'll never convert these relatively new gamers, nor expand their horizons. They have their way of thinking, and if you offered 1000 pieces of proof they are wrong they would steadfastly refuse to change their minds.

The wiser of us know they are full of crap, have no power to enforce this as a rule, and are just trying to show the world that they are better people because they think miniature gaming is a collectible thing (like those little figurines of grandma's), when in reality is just a bunch of men playing with toys.

There needs to be a *like* button, or applause button. The best I can do is this

[NMI]

As this topic has turned into a big ole bait/troll 'fest, I am locking the topic. Heck, the topic itself started out as a bait to an extent.