Rifts: Air Power! or what happened to...

[taalismn]

[
uh, what other kinds of radar radiation do you think their are? Its all radio, specifically microwave, often in the s band.

The same way that modern EW operators can detect and ID specific types of weapons systems radars? A regular pattern of sweeps that can be timed, signal strength that can tell you if the source is moving? Frequency? Because your fire control radar's not going to be operating like your early warning radar.
That's where you start making the EW/ECM/ECCM or Radio and Read Sensory Instrument skill rolls

Addenum: Ninja'ed by flatline.

Okay so your talking pattern, pulsewidth, frequency, bandwidth, cycle, etc. Not type of radiation.

I was referring to the type(with regards to the factors of which you speak) of radar radiation, not radiation in general. Apologies for the vague terms.

[flatline]

[
uh, what other kinds of radar radiation do you think their are? Its all radio, specifically microwave, often in the s band.

The same way that modern EW operators can detect and ID specific types of weapons systems radars? A regular pattern of sweeps that can be timed, signal strength that can tell you if the source is moving? Frequency? Because your fire control radar's not going to be operating like your early warning radar.
That's where you start making the EW/ECM/ECCM or Radio and Read Sensory Instrument skill rolls

Addenum: Ninja'ed by flatline.

Sorry!

--flatline

[Zer0 Kay]

[
uh, what other kinds of radar radiation do you think their are? Its all radio, specifically microwave, often in the s band.

The same way that modern EW operators can detect and ID specific types of weapons systems radars? A regular pattern of sweeps that can be timed, signal strength that can tell you if the source is moving? Frequency? Because your fire control radar's not going to be operating like your early warning radar.
That's where you start making the EW/ECM/ECCM or Radio and Read Sensory Instrument skill rolls

Addenum: Ninja'ed by flatline.

Okay so your talking pattern, pulsewidth, frequency, bandwidth, cycle, etc. Not type of radiation.

I was referring to the type(with regards to the factors of which you speak) of radar radiation, not radiation in general. Apologies for the vague terms.

What?! Radar has very specifi... okay fine a lot of the terms are vague, but the math, mechanics and electronics are not.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'd suspect that ANY unregistered radar set and radar radiation operating from an aerial source in CS territory will bring a challenge from the CS air traffic and defense net. Failure to ID self to the satisfaction of the CS will get a fighter flight vectored in on you, or a HARM lobbed at you.

Well then they must be real busy with the vehicles, power armors, giant robots and aircraft that have standard radar.

I don't think so. It takes a either a radar with a slow azimuth cycle or rotation to be able to be used at range for navigation or a short range with high cycles/rotation.

The radar for navigation is different from that used for tracking targets or weather.

Perhaps I should specify specific types of radar radiation, and judge on a case-by-case basis.
In any event, the CS will NOT want anybody mapping their territory without their permission and control. They more realistically expect to fail at this, because of lack of manpower to address every possible incident, counter every platform, sniff out and seal every data-leak, and other unforeseen circumstances(such as alien technology), but publically they'll work to make it look like they're in total charge of their airspace and navigation data.

uh, what other kinds of radar radiation do you think their are? Its all radio, specifically microwave, often in the s band.

Different radar use different bands depending on their purpose. Here's a site that I think gives an excellent introduction to the topic: http://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/rb02.en.html

--flatline

Why, thanks, don't need it. Most air surveillance is in the s band weather is c. 8 years USAF, AFSC 2E071. Personally worked on. AN/GPN-22 & 21 and a test bed NEXRAD. Last two years ran shop as NCOIC. In court I can legally be a radar expert and can argue and win a case on why a radar gun can't be used as evidence of speeding with rain present.
Favorite radar I've worked on NEXRAD at Fredrick, OK
Favorite radar tipsy 75
Easiest radar 21
hardest or rather biggest pain in the backside 22 @ Elmendorf,AK
Most awesome system that is almost criminally missused, in my opinion, STARS and DASRs. If used properly wed never have a 9/11 again or lost aircraft, during hand offs.

[glitterboy2098]

i think it would be more accurate to refer to "signal" rather than "radiation" in this case.

[Zer0 Kay]

Oh yes, even if you're not actively jamming people with combat ECM/ECCM, there's other forms of electronic warfare to pay attention to.

Ya realize all they have to do for ecm is identify the grew as long as there is no encoding and broadcast the same grew back... Unless they want to try and damage the system then they can employ or try to employ burn through bit and over power the receivers. ECCM is normally done passively before hand. Can't talk about most of it. But signal hopping is one method.

[Zer0 Kay]

i think it would be more accurate to refer to "signal" rather than "radiation" in this case.

Beam actually.
Except for IFF/SIFFs because they're actually a radio interrogation system linked to the radar. So it is still a signal.

Incidentally unlike our favorite game's radar systems. Radar can't identify a flying tree from an F-15. Identification is either done through controller notation or IFF/SIF interrogation.
Most of our RL radar tech is 1975 era hardware and tech.

Finally funniest radar component and a funny acronym. The hi/low transmitter on the AN/GPN-22. The high power function was intended to burn through weather. Anyone who knows anything about radar knows that if you simply pour more power into the beam the reflected signal is just stronger. So instead of a blob of weather it produces a bright blob of weather... Yay engineers.

Funny acronym. The AN/GPNs transmitter is called a traveling wave tube or TWT it isn't so much a transmitter as it is an amplifier so the old acronym that was changed because of our PC world and for good taste and civility came from the Traveling Wave Amplification Tube... I'll let ya'll figure out that one since the censor will probably do something to it if I type it.

[Mack]

Why, thanks, don't need it. Most air surveillance is in the s band weather is c. 8 years USAF, AFSC 2E071. Personally worked on. AN/GPN-22 & 21 and a test bed NEXRAD. Last two years ran shop as NCOIC. In court I can legally be a radar expert and can argue and win a case on why a radar gun can't be used as evidence of speeding with rain present.
Favorite radar I've worked on NEXRAD at Fredrick, OK
Favorite radar tipsy 75
Easiest radar 21
hardest or rather biggest pain in the backside 22 @ Elmendorf,AK
Most awesome system that is almost criminally missused, in my opinion, STARS and DASRs. If used properly wed never have a 9/11 again or lost aircraft, during hand offs.

I bet I've worked on one that's bigger...

Spoiler:

AN/FPS-85 Phased Array Space Surveillance Radar. Can track a basketball at 3,000 miles.

[Alrik Vas]

Well then they must be real busy with the vehicles, power armors, giant robots and aircraft that have standard radar.

Considering they don't want anyone but themselves operating those in their territory, I imagine they spend a fair amount of their time on that when not responding to monster attacks.

Where'd it say that privately owned pa is illegal in the CS?

I wanted to address this as it relates to radar responses as well.

I don't think it's illegal to own power armor in the CS. I think it's illegal to pilot it anywhere near a city, though. If you're out zipping around and uncle skullhead notices you, pull over. If you don't, that's probably when you get "challenged."

[Tor]

Would elementals necessarily be present in equal numbers? I figure air elementals would be the ones most often summoned since they're invisible minions, could explain higher portions on earth.

[Zer0 Kay]

Why, thanks, don't need it. Most air surveillance is in the s band weather is c. 8 years USAF, AFSC 2E071. Personally worked on. AN/GPN-22 & 21 and a test bed NEXRAD. Last two years ran shop as NCOIC. In court I can legally be a radar expert and can argue and win a case on why a radar gun can't be used as evidence of speeding with rain present.
Favorite radar I've worked on NEXRAD at Fredrick, OK
Favorite radar tipsy 75
Easiest radar 21
hardest or rather biggest pain in the backside 22 @ Elmendorf,AK
Most awesome system that is almost criminally missused, in my opinion, STARS and DASRs. If used properly wed never have a 9/11 again or lost aircraft, during hand offs.

I bet I've worked on one that's bigger...

Spoiler:

AN/FPS-85 Phased Array Space Surveillance Radar. Can track a basketball at 3,000 miles.

yup, where at? Never mind I see Eglin now that I'm quoting you. Prior/active service or contractor? or should I say brother in arms or awesome job stealer?

[Zer0 Kay]

Would elementals necessarily be present in equal numbers? I figure air elementals would be the ones most often summoned since they're invisible minions, could explain higher portions on earth.

cuz no one wants one that can appear through the earth? Jump out of a fire or flow through a spigot?

wouldn't that assumption be determining that invisibility is the be all end all and therefore narrow in mind and unimaginative on the casters part? I think there are purposes for all of them.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well then they must be real busy with the vehicles, power armors, giant robots and aircraft that have standard radar.

Considering they don't want anyone but themselves operating those in their territory, I imagine they spend a fair amount of their time on that when not responding to monster attacks.

Where'd it say that privately owned pa is illegal in the CS?

I wanted to address this as it relates to radar responses as well.

I don't think it's illegal to own power armor in the CS. I think it's illegal to pilot it anywhere near a city, though. If you're out zipping around and uncle skullhead notices you, pull over. If you don't, that's probably when you get "challenged."

okay. So there is no way for the field payrolls to tell quickly that some guy is radar mapping. They'd have to "pull over" everyone they saw going x miles an hour, that would be the best way. Other wise they're going it to everyone.

[Tor]

cuz no one wants one that can appear through the earth? Jump out of a fire or flow through a spigot?

I'm sure people would want them, I just think LESS people would want them, since those are more specific situations, I find invisible air a lot more flexible to a variety of scenarios.

There's this guy in Splynn Dimensional Market who always keeps a minor air elemental as a subtle guardian, can't do that as easily with other elementals unless you lurk next to a pond/firepit/ground.

wouldn't that assumption be determining that invisibility is the be all end all

Nope, just saying it's the most versatile and would be more popular, resulting in a higher proportion of air elementals. It's not as if I'm saying it would be ALL air elementals and that nobody could possibly ever summon the other 3 types.

I mean heck, look at Rifts England, there's a generic way to summon any kind of elemental, and then another way which specifically only summons air elementals.

Even if that doesn't result from and evidence air elemental popularity, it shows that something like this could explain why there could be more of them,

I think there are purposes for all of them.

Yup, but moar purposes for air, thus I assume more air guys flitting about on earth...

Although TBH the idea of wild-roaming elementals confuses the heck out of me since I thought they always return to their home dimension unless summoned by a summoner/warlock/shifter. The only reason I remember them trying to stay behind is to save fellow elementals.

Is it possible that the reason for there being roaming bands of wild elementals on a planet is that they know their brothers are enslaved on the planet, but they aren't able to locate them, and are just skirting about randomly trying to get lucky?

If they understood us, they'd probably stay on ground level and congregate to places where humans and co would tend to be, where their enslaved brethren would tend to be... but since they're so alien, they might figure that 2 miles off the ground is just as likely a place to find an evil elemental-enslaver as in Tolkeen.

If they're wildly scouring the place looking for brethren-slavers it could also explain why they will react in a hostile way to most non-elementals they encounter, since they hate being here and could be worked into a frenzy picturing all of us (save warlocks) as being 'the enemy' who might hold their brethren enslaved.

[Alrik Vas]

Well then they must be real busy with the vehicles, power armors, giant robots and aircraft that have standard radar.

Considering they don't want anyone but themselves operating those in their territory, I imagine they spend a fair amount of their time on that when not responding to monster attacks.

Where'd it say that privately owned pa is illegal in the CS?

I wanted to address this as it relates to radar responses as well.

I don't think it's illegal to own power armor in the CS. I think it's illegal to pilot it anywhere near a city, though. If you're out zipping around and uncle skullhead notices you, pull over. If you don't, that's probably when you get "challenged."

okay. So there is no way for the field payrolls to tell quickly that some guy is radar mapping. They'd have to "pull over" everyone they saw going x miles an hour, that would be the best way. Other wise they're going it to everyone.

I don't have your expertise. Why is there no way? Are we talking about techs at radar stations or other guys on patrol who pick up bogies?

[Shark_Force]

I don't have your expertise. Why is there no way? Are we talking about techs at radar stations or other guys on patrol who pick up bogies?

it's not entirely clear, but i think what he's saying is that checking every single person who uses radar is likely to be a massive expenditure of resources. more likely, there will be an optimum speed for radar mapping; fast enough to get the job done as quickly as possible, slow enough that your equipment can get a good image and doesn't get more input than it can handle.

so, in other words, rather than checking *everyone* they would check the people who are traveling within that ideal speed window.

and, of course, there are probably also certain other telling factors... how high they are flying would likely be another telling point, i suspect (and perhaps even where they're focusing their radar... i would expect that if you want a good image of the ground, you'd benefit from not pointing your radar outward, but i'm not a radar tech so that's mostly speculation).

[Zer0 Kay]

considering they don't want anyone but themselves operating those in their territory, I imagine they spend a fair amount of their time on that when not responding to monster attacks.

Where'd it say that privately owned pa is illegal in the CS?

I wanted to address this as it relates to radar responses as well.

I don't think it's illegal to own power armor in the CS. I think it's illegal to pilot it anywhere near a city, though. If you're out zipping around and uncle skullhead notices you, pull over. If you don't, that's probably when you get "challenged."

okay. So there is no way for the field payrolls to tell quickly that some guy is radar mapping. They'd have to "pull over" everyone they saw going x miles an hour, that would be the best way. Other wise they're going it to everyone.

I don't have your expertise. Why is there no way? Are we talking about techs at radar stations or other guys on patrol who pick up bogies?

Either way. There would have to be a joint rivet type SAMAS with a specialist piloting it and an advanced AI that can make decisions and guesses but with the distaste for true AI that the CS has probably something more like a Death Head transport dedicated to SIGINT to determinesomeone is attempting to use radar mapping. If they aren't doing that then the patrols would have to pull over everyone and that is time consuming, especially with all the traffic the CS has.

[Zer0 Kay]

I don't have your expertise. Why is there no way? Are we talking about techs at radar stations or other guys on patrol who pick up bogies?

it's not entirely clear, but i think what he's saying is that checking every single person who uses radar is likely to be a massive expenditure of resources. more likely, there will be an optimum speed for radar mapping; fast enough to get the job done as quickly as possible, slow enough that your equipment can get a good image and doesn't get more input than it can handle.

so, in other words, rather than checking *everyone* they would check the people who are traveling within that ideal speed window.

and, of course, there are probably also certain other telling factors... how high they are flying would likely be another telling point, i suspect (and perhaps even where they're focusing their radar... i would expect that if you want a good image of the ground, you'd benefit from not pointing your radar outward, but i'm not a radar tech so that's mostly speculation).

downward would be good yup. You pretty much said it all. Now they'd run into other problems. What if the people trying to map the territory have an awesome computer or even a true A.I.? They would be able map an area traveling normally at various altitudes and have the data reassembled from multiple units on multiple days into one terrain map as long as their flight system recorded speed, trajectory, attitude, yaw, equivalent location (since there is no GPS probably by inertial sensors), with all the data being handled by a super computer or A.I. It should be able to compensate for inconsistencies from inertial navigation.

[rottencrab]

It's mentioned several times in the early books (which to me really set the tone of the world) that air travel is extremely dangerous and lists several reasons for that and why it's so rarely done even by the super-powers of the world (Triax, CS, Japan)

people keep claiming early books said its too dangerous to fly.. but i've yet to find these mentions. so Page # and excerpts or it didn't happen.

Probably not the best examples, but to get the ball rolling until people find better references:

Atlantisp12 "grey to black clouds roll in, the wind gusts at around 35mph" .. "a ley line storm can occur at any time along any ley line on land or at sea"

Sounds like it might make flight difficult. Even if Rifts did have modern weather-prediction abilities (unlikely) this would be very hard to predict, and is a lot rougher on aircraft.

NGRp131 "The extreme altitude makes travel reasonably safe from would-be monster attackers and even most combat jets. Dimensional anomalies from the ley lines and rifts are also less common at these heights".

Implication being that lower-altitude aircraft are vulnerable to being attacked by flying beasts (if slow) or ramming into ley storms with little warning (if fast).

Let's take a major air elemental with a MAXIMUM Spd of 300 which is approximately 200mph. Now compare that to the Triax XM-280 which travels at Mach 3.

Majors all know "creature of the wind" and can increase beyond the maximum speed to 150% higher at 500mph, although that's still below the XM-280.

Mid-flight, unless the flight path could be predicted and directly intercepted, the main risk to a pilot in this thing would be when they run low on food and have to land. Their flight speed would slow down as they came down on a strip, and that's where air elementals could lie in ambush.

More flexible aircraft like the XM-275 would have less predictable less obvious landing habits and would probably be better at avoiding the elementals, in spite of being slower than the XM-280.

The XM-270 is of course too slow to evade an amped-up Major Air, although they would have to be spell-sped so it could not be done casually and PPE would need to be regenerated in between pursuits.

The XM-180 could normally evade elementals but would be vulnerable to them during drop-slowdowns.

Another thing to consider might be that since air elementals are supernatural creatures that fly via magic (up to and including the spelled flight mentioned above), and unless mentioned otherwise can probably turn on a dime - at their highest speeds, they can outmaneuver pretty much anything a tech-based nation could put in the air.

[Blastaar]

When I read the Bush pilot OCC, I can imagine them using some of the rebuilt planes of today thanks to GAW and using some of the new style craft described all over. maybe a severely modified ac-29 or the like.

Merc-Town page 31
Air north America has GA-130's, Helicopters ranging from Kiowa's,chinooks and blackhawks as well as a small passenger jet (not mentioned a style (your choice?)

Air Superiority has some Iron Heart aircraft , GA-16 falcons and Naruni to name a few makes

And truthfully flying at lower levels to ground and speeds can be dangerous.

But really all you need to do is look at the years from 1910-1939 for pilots.
These guys initially did not have radar, or anything. They used maps and at times I am sure tried flying via the stars at night, the open cockpit they braved cold weather, rain and such to ensure deliveries were made.
(medicines, manhunts)
As I see it the bush pilot OCC are also explorers as well and are in the process of rediscovering the US in this time of extreme changes.

[Tor]

I'm going to say Rifts Earth is excessively polluted by Air Elementals. I will assert that their numbers are over double the combined number of the other 3.

Reason being, those Herbalists in England. It's just so much cheaper to summon air elementals, much less PPE, and people would prefer that anyway since it's a more versatile assassin and protector.

The wands that control them are flimsy SDC structures, so people would keep losing their minions and have to buy a new wand, summon a new air elemental, etc.