HEAP and SLAP ammunition in ROBOTECH

[SRoss]

Ok, in the Macross era book we get SLAP ammunition for rifles and up. In Shadow Chronicles and the Masters Saga they add HEAP ammunition for pistols and SMGs. Can these bullets be fired from pre-Robotech War firearms or is it like Magnum rounds vs conventional, where the guns have to be designed to handle the extra power?

[Tim Wing]

As long as the cartridges are the same size, it will be no issue. There would have to be a huge increase in propellant to have a major effect on the operating system of the firearm in question, and most times the propellant is pretty well fixed to a set range for a particular caliber.

A real world example of this is the SLAP round chambered in .50 Cal. There is no significant change in propellant, just the round itself. I shot plenty of this in Iraq out of a standard M2HB (.50 Cal machine gun)... the receiver of which was stamped 1962, so, not exactly a new build weapon! And, yeah, totally no issues. And it goes through walls... for several city blocks.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/slap.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG

The only issue some ammo, esp the SLAP rounds, might have in older guns would be clearing the feed ramp. An auto pistol, such as an old timey 1911, is designed to feed round nosed ball ammunition. My personal 1911 has a little trouble from time to time feeding modern hollow points and other expanding ammunition. Put a super sharp tip on the round, and it might hang up even more! This, of course, woulf vary from gun to gun.

Magazine fed rifles, and belt fed crew serve weapons, should have no problem.

From a game mechanics point of view, if using SLAP or HEAP ammo in a pre-war pistol, maybe have the player roll a percentile for jamming?

[SRoss]

That was the part I was wondering about. I remembered reading somewhere that while older .44s can chamber a Magnum round, the gun would likely blow up if fired. So I wondered if the SLAP and HEAP rounds had extra propellent or was it just the design that allowed them to do MD.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, in the Macross era book we get SLAP ammunition for rifles and up. In Shadow Chronicles and the Masters Saga they add HEAP ammunition for pistols and SMGs. Can these bullets be fired from pre-Robotech War firearms or is it like Magnum rounds vs conventional, where the guns have to be designed to handle the extra power?

My assumption would be that, as these weapons are made out of futuristic supermaterials, it shouldn't be an issue.

[Tim Wing]

Correct. A "Magnum" rounds is, by definition, a round that has extra propellant... Where as the SLAP and HEAP are different rounds. Also, a magnum round is longer than its non-magnum equivalent. That is how you are able to add a significant amount of extra powder. This only really works in revolvers though. Not really applicable to anything that uses a magazine. Also, stories of older revolvers blowing up, IMHO, are more due to the aged and fatigued metal, that was produced at a time when metallurgy and quality control were at a lower standard than they are today.

So, yep, long story short, if there is gun in the RPG chamber in 9mm Parabellum that produces MD with a HEAP or SLAP round, you can take that ammo and fire it through a Glock or a Browning Hi-Power and plink away at Invid Shock Troopers all day!

[Tim Wing]

Also, here is an article I did a while back on 7.62 NATO rounds, that included some SLAP and SLAP-T rounds that should do MD. (Note: no actual game stats here... but you should be able to extrapolate the effects.)

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/refu ... cartridge/

[Alpha 11]

Also, here is an article I did a while back on 7.62 NATO rounds, that included some SLAP and SLAP-T rounds that should do MD. (Note: no actual game stats here... but you should be able to extrapolate the effects.)

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/refu ... cartridge/

Wow. Cool.

[SRoss]

Also, here is an article I did a while back on 7.62 NATO rounds, that included some SLAP and SLAP-T rounds that should do MD. (Note: no actual game stats here... but you should be able to extrapolate the effects.)

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/refu ... cartridge/

So SLAP ammunition is basically like Dart ammunition from Albedo?

[SRoss]

Also, here is an article I did a while back on 7.62 NATO rounds, that included some SLAP and SLAP-T rounds that should do MD. (Note: no actual game stats here... but you should be able to extrapolate the effects.)

http://www.robotechillustrated.com/refu ... cartridge/

Wow. Cool.

Seconded!

[Tim Wing]

The best way to understand SLAP ammo is on the macro scale. A SLAP .50 Cal round, and by extension 7.62 and 9mm, is a down-sized version of a 120mm tank APFSDS (Sabot) round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-pie ... ding-sabot

[Jefffar]

It also seems that SLAP works best in high velocity weapons with small bore sizes (ie rifles and machine guns) while LEAP works better in lower velocity weapons with proportionally large bore sizes (ie pistols and submachineguns). The effects of the two are broadly similar otherwise.

[slade the sniper]

It also seems that SLAP works best in high velocity weapons with small bore sizes (ie rifles and machine guns) while LEAP works better in lower velocity weapons with proportionally large bore sizes (ie pistols and submachineguns). The effects of the two are broadly similar otherwise.

Do you mean HEAP? The reason that HEAT/HEAP rounds work better is due to the Munroe effect, whereas SLAP works via velocity and mass (small, heavy things with small diameter moving very fast).

-STS

[obsessed]

Ok, in the Macross era book we get SLAP ammunition for rifles and up. In Shadow Chronicles and the Masters Saga they add HEAP ammunition for pistols and SMGs. Can these bullets be fired from pre-Robotech War firearms or is it like Magnum rounds vs conventional, where the guns have to be designed to handle the extra power?

@SRoss,
Two principles you need to understand: kinetic penetration, and chemical penetration.

Theoretically, neither SLAP not HEAT rounds would require more recoil than any ball, HE-I or AP-I ammo. Nor would they recuire thicker receivers due to higher breech pressures.

[The Artist Formerly]

How do we know the basic rounds aren't already geared for superior effect?

[obsessed]

How do we know the basic rounds aren't already geared for superior effect?

Huh?

[The Artist Formerly]

How do we know the basic rounds aren't already geared for superior effect?

Huh?

Many if not all mecha are geared for events as hard vacuum exposure to the sun, as well as reentry. These things are literally made mythical materials.... and whoops. We're not talking about Mecha rounds are we...

Never mind. Of all the threads to go off half cocked on...

[jedi078]

While I do have 5.56mm and 7.62mm SLAP ammo in my games, I do not have them inflict MDC damage. Otherwise a well led infantry squad could easily take down a full size mecha in built up areas such as a city.

[obsessed]

While I do have 5.56mm and 7.62mm SLAP ammo in my games, I do not have them inflict MDC damage. Otherwise a well led infantry squad could easily take down a full size mecha in built up areas such as a city.

Sabot Light Armor Penetrator: The two key words in the S.L.A.P. accronym re " Light Armor". Even the 7.62mm can only penetrate 30mm steel inside 100m range. They are more purposed against body armor, light vehicles, and fuel tanks. Still, these are NOT incendiary so they would not explode a fuel tank. (Real life 7.62mm SLAP has never been adopted)

The pistol AP ammunition would be exclusively against body armor. The best steel penetration of 9mm AP ammo is 8mm at 10m.

High Explosive HEAP pistol ammo...not a chance.

[Jefffar]

I've always held that .50 BMG is the dividing line between SDC/MDC. A 7.62 or 5.56 SLAP would need to penetrate at least as much as a plain .50 BMG to inflict MDC.

[obsessed]

Armor piercing rounds are not exclusively SLAP. You can have a hard steel or tungsten core inside a 5.56mm rifle, 7.62mm rifle or 9mm pisol and not be SLAP. Lead cores would mushroom and deform upon hitting kevlar or metal plate, but tungsten cores penetrate.

Forget about your SLAP ammo altogether and choose AP-I or Multi-purpose (raoufoss). These carry a steel or tungsten core and explosive/incendiary mix which detonates (using friction and chemical reaction) INSIDE your target. Remember its not just about penetrating armor, its about what damage is done inside.

There is no Saint Petersburg Declaration on explosive bullets in the Macross Universe.

[Jefffar]

Saint Petersburg Declaration only applies to weapons intended to be used directly against personnel. Anti-armour vehicle weapons (like small arms firing HEAP ammo) could be excluded provided that is the primary purpose of the system.

Soldiers are also allowed to use any weapon at hand to protect themselves, so if the soldier happens to only have HEAP ammo for his 9mm and enemy infantry appears, he's still allowed to use his weapon.

[glitterboy2098]

it is also likely that when the United Earth government formed, and created the UEDF, one of the first things they did was to replace or amend many of those old treaties to reflect the needs of fighting the zentreadi..

[Jefffar]

Well those treaties only apply when you are fighting other signatories of the treaties anyway. So unless someone forwarded a copy to Tirol, no worries there.

[obsessed]

Wow, you boys really took that St Petersburg joke WAY too seriously.

[GrimmReaper]

How about adding a .55 Caliber sniping rifle. I liked that idea Similar to a barrett or any nuimber of semi auto Anti-material rifle. been watching too many taped episodes of Future weapons off of the military channel.

[Jefffar]

Why is the .55 showing up on Future Weapons? It was phased out in WW2.

[glitterboy2098]

it didn't. FW did do a spot on the barret M82 though (military designation M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle), a .50cal antimaterial rifle.