Scrolls and Borgs

[iamslar]

So, looking at how scrolls work in Palladium, I had a question for which I have not been able to find an official answer.

Can a 'borg read scrolls?

What if both eyes are replaced by cybernetic or bionic eyes?

If a 'borg can read a scroll, can a robot with transferred A.I.?

What about a regular A.I.?

What about a non-A.I. with speech software?

Can a scroll be read through a remote system? In other words, can I send in a remote-controlled robot and have it open the scroll, and then read it through the robot's sensors?

Where would any limitations on this be found?

[Shark_Force]

zombies can read scrolls. I'd say a cyborg is, if anything, more "alive" than a zombie, so I'd allow a cyborg to read a scroll, regardless of the type of eyes they have.

I would likewise allow a transferred intelligence.

for regular AIs, with or without speech software, I'd say no. exceptional AIs such as ARCHIE and the machine people of phase world, definitely yes. for neural intelligences, I'm somewhat undecided, and I'm going to stick with "maybe".

I would say no to remote use of a scroll.

of course, most of this (with the exception of the observation that zombies definitely can read scrolls, that's in the spell description for creating zombies) is just my personal opinion.

[eliakon]

zombies can read scrolls. I'd say a cyborg is, if anything, more "alive" than a zombie, so I'd allow a cyborg to read a scroll, regardless of the type of eyes they have.

I would likewise allow a transferred intelligence.

for regular AIs, with or without speech software, I'd say no. exceptional AIs such as ARCHIE and the machine people of phase world, definitely yes. for neural intelligences, I'm somewhat undecided, and I'm going to stick with "maybe".

I would say no to remote use of a scroll.

of course, most of this (with the exception of the observation that zombies definitely can read scrolls, that's in the spell description for creating zombies) is just my personal opinion.

Which version of Zombie are you getting this from? I know it says 'can read simple signs and sentences' but that's a far cry from 'can use magical scrolls'.
I would say that the implications of the scroll spell are that you must be sentient (as palladium defines it) to use a scroll.
So self aware, self motivated beings only.
Cyborgs are in trouble since it says that it appears blank to cameras....which is what a cybernetic eye is.
And you have to have speech since it says it has to be read aloud to be activated.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Can a 'borg read scrolls?
What if both eyes are replaced by cybernetic or bionic eyes?
If a 'borg can read a scroll, can a robot with transferred A.I.?
What about a regular A.I.?
What about a non-A.I. with speech software?
Can a scroll be read through a remote system?
In other words, can I send in a remote-controlled robot and have it open the scroll, and then read it through the robot's sensors?

I will answer the question as it was posed to mean "can X see the words to be able to read it at all?" and then give the answer to "can X read it out loud to activate a magic scroll?"

brog:-----------------------yes, yes
cyber eyes in a F&B person: ----yes, yes
Transferred Intelligence: ------yes, yes.
sentient AI: -----------------No, no
((good question, but easy to answer cause magic scrolls can't be recorded/duplicated in any way)(however, if the AI/android can do magic then yes on both counts))
remote: ---------------------no, no

Note there is some ambiguity of the way to activate a magic scroll. The Text of the create magic spell scroll says it has to be read aloud and there are FAQ that says that even if the scroll is read silently that will activate the scroll.

[StormSeeker]

Slightly off topic: I'm not familiar with how scrolls work in palladium, which books have details? I've got quite a few rifts books, but I'm just starting to get into magic, always played RPAs or crazies before.

[Grell]

Anyone can use a scroll provided they can read the language in which it's written because the scroll itself is pre-charged and only needs the words spoken aloud. Since cybernetic eyes can be equipped with camera features, I would rule that normal 'everyday use' is not considered camera function. I would say that 'Borgs can use a scroll, though finding one literate in Dragonese might be a little difficult I would think.

[eliakon]

I think the question of 'Do cybernetic eyes count as cameras or not' is going to have to be a case by case house rule, since not surprisingly there is nothing explicit in the books. I would say though that a good rule of thumb is 'does it count for gaze'. If, for instance in your game you say that borg's are immune to a vampires gaze attack since 'its not looking into your real eye' then its a camera.....

[Grell]

Vampire Kingdoms pg. 94 "Vampire versus Cyborgs"

"However, 'Borgs, though bound to a mechanical body, are also creatures of flesh controlled by a living brain, so they are vulnerable to a vampire's Mind Control and Hypnotic Suggestion, even if their eyes are mechanical."

Helpful quote.

[The Beast]

Vampire Kingdoms pg. 94 "Vampire versus Cyborgs"

"However, 'Borgs, though bound to a mechanical body, are also creatures of flesh controlled by a living brain, so they are vulnerable to a vampire's Mind Control and Hypnotic Suggestion, even if their eyes are mechanical."

Helpful quote.

Then for using a scroll, cybernetic eyes should work. I wouldn't allow recording though.

[Grell]

That seems reasonable.

[Shark_Force]

[snip]

of course, most of this (with the exception of the observation that zombies definitely can read scrolls, that's in the spell description for creating zombies) is just my personal opinion.

Which version of Zombie are you getting this from? I know it says 'can read simple signs and sentences' but that's a far cry from 'can use magical scrolls'.
I would say that the implications of the scroll spell are that you must be sentient (as palladium defines it) to use a scroll.
So self aware, self motivated beings only.
Cyborgs are in trouble since it says that it appears blank to cameras....which is what a cybernetic eye is.
And you have to have speech since it says it has to be read aloud to be activated.

hmmm... i'm pretty sure i remember an explicit statement that zombies can read magical scrolls. now i'm not sure where i saw it though. don't suppose anyone has come across it recently?

i've checked my RMB pdf and the nightbane version of the create zombie spell (which is quite different, and much more limited), but can't find the place.

i'm wondering if perhaps it's mentioned somewhere in CWC or the siege of tolkeen books, as something tolkeen might have done? i've read those books, but never liked them enough to do more than read a friend's copy... alternately, it might be in rifts africa or mystic russia in the section on necromancers or something like that...

in any event, if anyone comes across such a reference, i'd appreciate it if you post it here.

(also, what it says is that cameras cannot *record* the writing. in much the same way that your brain can't record the writing and know how to make a scroll of that spell, for example, but that doesn't mean your brain is unable to perceive the writing in the first place).

[Grell]

(also, what it says is that cameras cannot *record* the writing. in much the same way that your brain can't record the writing and know how to make a scroll of that spell, for example, but that doesn't mean your brain is unable to perceive the writing in the first place).

That was my understanding of the camera limitation as well.

[Alrik Vas]

Can zombies even speak anymore, and would it be enough to recite the words on the scroll? Reading might not be the issue.

[Grell]

As I recall, they can speak but only in short sentences. I do not believe they are defined as literate or illiterate either way though. Never read anything about them being able to use scrolls that I can remember, but they CAN drive a car so I guess anything's possible.

[Incriptus]

I should be going to sleep but instead I'm going to type some non-sense.

What most people don't know is that it's not the act of installing machinery into the body that depletes it's natural PPE or it's ability to channel magic. It is the fact that the body/mind/spirit merging with the machine. The energy isn't destroyed it is simply channeled into blurring the lines between the living and the machine. While mechanically there is little difference between this camera and a cyborgs eyes. However to the Borg himself the difference between an external camera and his eyes are immeasurable. That lost potential psychic energy allows the unnatural eyes to interact with magical energy in many ways as if they were his natural eyes. It will never be the same as the real thing, but not as radically different as many would believe. Ever notice that Telemechanics doesn't work on a cyber heart, same principle. While outside of the body, it is as much a machine as this can opener, however when a living being becomes dependent on it, some of that PPE is siphoned away protecting it. Cut off a man's arm, he suffers no lose to his magic, attach a hook or primitive prosthetic, again no loss. However attach a fully functioning cybernetic replacement and he will psychically bind to it, draining his PPE.

[Alrik Vas]

I am now creating a zombie demolition derby event for the merctown battle dome. Awesome.

[Grell]

I am now creating a zombie demolition derby event for the merctown battle dome. Awesome.

Just think of all the money you'll save on airbags!

I should be going to sleep but instead I'm going to type some non-sense.

What most people don't know is that it's not the act of installing machinery into the body that depletes it's natural PPE or it's ability to channel magic. It is the fact that the body/mind/spirit merging with the machine. The energy isn't destroyed it is simply channeled into blurring the lines between the living and the machine. While mechanically there is little difference between this camera and a cyborgs eyes. However to the Borg himself the difference between an external camera and his eyes are immeasurable. That lost potential psychic energy allows the unnatural eyes to interact with magical energy in many ways as if they were his natural eyes. It will never be the same as the real thing, but not as radically different as many would believe. Ever notice that Telemechanics doesn't work on a cyber heart, same principle. While outside of the body, it is as much a machine as this can opener, however when a living being becomes dependent on it, some of that PPE is siphoned away protecting it. Cut off a man's arm, he suffers no lose to his magic, attach a hook or primitive prosthetic, again no loss. However attach a fully functioning cybernetic replacement and he will psychically bind to it, draining his PPE.

This is a great way of looking at it.

[Jeremy_Black]

I agree, well said. I suspect that this is similar to how the authors view or intend it.

[Tor]

zombies definitely can read scrolls
that's in the spell description for creating zombies

I am looking forward to a citation for this

Rifts185 "can be read and used by anybody who can read the particular language it was written in"
Rifts187 "can speak, read simple signs and sentences"

The problem though, is that while zombies theoretically have the capacity to read, they do not have a literacy skill. So unless we assume that zombies inherently have Literacy: All, or some extrapolation like "all literacy skills of the caster" or "all literacy skills they had while alive" (both assuming a lot) I think this means that the zombie must acquire literacy through other means.

A scroll is not a sign, but a scroll could possibly be a series of 'simple sentences', so that phrasing is not a problem. I think the issue is that a zombie needs a literacy skill to be able to read.

Another issue is speaking: a zombie has the capacity to speak, but it still needs language skills to be able to speak that particular language. We don't know which those are. Some GMs might declare they know languages known when alive, or all languages known by the spellcaster, but that is not clear.

Although golems/mummies/zombies all magically understand verbal commands from their creators, that is not the same thing as understanding how to read or speak that language when it comes from another source, such as the scroll.

I think there is a way for a zombie to use scrolls, but it requires other magic be used, and is temporary:

Rifts175 (Eyes of Thoth) "enables the character to read and understand ALL written languages" .. "spoken languages are incomprehensible unless a tongues spell is also invoked"
Rifts177 (Tongues) "enables the character to perfectly understand and speak all spoken languages"

so basically, a zombie must be enchanted with BOTH the Eyes of Thoth and Tongues spell, active simultaneously, to be able to use a scroll.

Eyes is needed to read the scroll, but Tongues is needed to dictate it.

Scroll-readers are not able to silent-cast spells like mages are, after all, so they must be able to orate, and being able to read a scroll does NOT enable you to orate it.

[Shark_Force]

you don't need either of those spells if the zombie can both read and speak. it's certainly reasonable to limit the zombie to only being able to use scrolls in the appropriate language (once you've made your decision regarding what language or languages zombies can speak), but if they can already read, and speak, those requirements are satisfied.

(on a side note, you can make a scroll in whatever language you want, and you can even spell it out phonetically. actually, is uspect that spelling it out phonetically is the standard, rather than the exception, since most likely it doesn't use actual words in the first place).

[Alrik Vas]

yeah, but zombies don't have sentience (by palladium standards, anyway) so even if they did read it, wouldn't it be the same as a recording reciting the words with the scroll sitting in front of the sound system? i don't think it would work. Though i'm not an expert here. I wouldn't let a zombie use a scroll, anyway. Though it's a cool idea for magical terror tactics, admittedly.

[Shark_Force]

1 - you can't record the sounds a scroll makes. whether or not recording the sounds and replaying them in front of a scroll would cast the spell is something we may never know, because it isn't possible.

2 - the zombie is not independant. that doesn't mean it isn't sentient. they're also just as alive (or undead, rather) as a vampire, which i suspect most would agree can use a scroll without difficulties (provided they can read and speak, of course).

either way, the problem is not the zombie's ability to read, which was my point in that last post.

the decision as to whether zombies count as... whatever it is that scrolls require to be used... has some relevance. since it isn't defined anywhere that i've seen, i can't give a canonical answer to what it is. their capacity for reading and speaking, however, is clearly stated. that much is not in question.

[The Beast]

Zombies are the magical equivalent of Dyna-bots. I wouldn't expect either one to be able to use magic scrolls.

[Alrik Vas]

Zombies are the magical equivalent of Dyna-bots. I wouldn't expect either one to be able to use magic scrolls.

That's kinda what I was getting at. And a Zombie isn't independent, that's the key. A vampire can use a scroll because it is.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Zombies are the magical equivalent of Dyna-bots. I wouldn't expect either one to be able to use magic scrolls.

That's kinda what I was getting at. And a Zombie isn't independent, that's the key. A vampire can use a scroll because it is.

I will have to say both of the above statements are true for zombies created with the "Create Zombie" spell.

Other zombies....*shrugs* depends on what type of zombie it is (tech, viral, DR, etc..).

[Shark_Force]

Zombies are the magical equivalent of Dyna-bots. I wouldn't expect either one to be able to use magic scrolls.

That's kinda what I was getting at. And a Zombie isn't independent, that's the key. A vampire can use a scroll because it is.

which is a valid ruling for your games, but nothing actually indicates that you need to be independent to use a scroll.

for example, if i mind control a person into reading a scroll, i suspect most people would agree that the scroll will be activated (provided the form of mind control does not preclude reading or speaking).

[eliakon]

Zombies are the magical equivalent of Dyna-bots. I wouldn't expect either one to be able to use magic scrolls.

That's kinda what I was getting at. And a Zombie isn't independent, that's the key. A vampire can use a scroll because it is.

which is a valid ruling for your games, but nothing actually indicates that you need to be independent to use a scroll.

for example, if i mind control a person into reading a scroll, i suspect most people would agree that the scroll will be activated (provided the form of mind control does not preclude reading or speaking).

Nothing indicates that a zombie CAN do it either. In fact I would say that the caveat that it can read 'simple signs and sentences' to me would indicate that it cant read something complex....like a scroll. YMMV of course. I don't think it can speak the words well enough to use it either. Which makes the question of what level of independence, if any is important moot (for zombies at least)

[Shark_Force]

scrolls aren't complex. you can write the words phonetically if you want, and they can be read typically in 1-3 actions (assuming we follow the same rules for casting time as spells, which is the only ruling i've seen that has even the flimsiest amount of support to it so far).

zombies can read. zombies can speak. those requirements are satisfied. if you wish to dispute the ability of zombies to use scrolls because they lack some undefinable characteristic, well, i can't prove you wrong (though on the flip side, you can't prove yourself right either - thus, we are at an impasse on that point).

but as far as the characteristics of "can read and speak" are concerned, the zombie definitively satisfies those requirements.

[eliakon]

scrolls aren't complex. you can write the words phonetically if you want, and they can be read typically in 1-3 actions (assuming we follow the same rules for casting time as spells, which is the only ruling i've seen that has even the flimsiest amount of support to it so far).

zombies can read. zombies can speak. those requirements are satisfied. if you wish to dispute the ability of zombies to use scrolls because they lack some undefinable characteristic, well, i can't prove you wrong (though on the flip side, you can't prove yourself right either - thus, we are at an impasse on that point).

but as far as the characteristics of "can read and speak" are concerned, the zombie definitively satisfies those requirements.

We don't know how complex the scrolls are, nor if they are phonetic. Just that you have to be able to read it aloud. So again its back into the nebulous grey area of 'can they read it well enough' to which the answer is "maybe" and 'can they speak well enough" to which again the answer is "maybe"

[Shark_Force]

the scroll does not mention any particular attribute or skill% requirements. merely that you can read, and speak.

zombies can read. zombies can speak. they meet those requirements.

you are free to add whatever further requirements you wish for your own games. it won't change what the actual writing in the book says though.

again, if you wish to argue that the zombie fails to meet some other requirement for your games, that's fine. for your games. heck, if the missing requirement for your games is "not a zombie", that's fine. or, it's possible that you don't feel a zombie satisfies the requirement of being "anybody" (which is, itself, so poorly defined that i'm not sure it's even possible to build a compelling case for either side). it really doesn't matter outside of your games, though.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion. you're entitled to express it. but if you're going to take your opinion on how something should work, and then declare that to be the way the book says it should work, i'm going to need some proof in the same way that people earlier required proof that zombies explicity can use scrolls (which i still can't find, for the record, and at this point i despair of ever finding it. i can't think of where i saw it, in any event).

they can, however, implicitly use scrolls, because they meet the only requirements given. those being:

1) can read
2) can speak

both of which zombies are explicitly noted as being able to do (of course, i expect many people also rule that slightly differently... for example, i suspect something along the lines of most people only giving those skills to zombies that had such skills in life, or only to zombies created by mages with such skills, depending on whether you consider the zombie to be reanimated by the will of the creator or the spirit of the deceased).

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is a consciousness of a soul that is required to read a magic scroll.

While Real World zombies are just drugged and hypnotized people. Game-world zombies are not.

[Daniel Stoker]

It is a consciousness of a soul that is required to read a magic scroll.

Where is that stated in the spell description?


Daniel Stoker

[Alrik Vas]

Too bad we don't have any zombies to try this out with.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It is a consciousness of a soul that is required to read a magic scroll.

Where is that stated in the spell description?


Daniel Stoker

In the parts that the writer thought were so self evident that they are assumed that the reader knows about them already.

[Daniel Stoker]

So it's your assumption. I mean so would that means vampires which don't have 'souls' anymore as they're animated by an alien intelligence can't use a spell scroll?

And a more tangential question would a Machine Person from Phase World be able to read a scroll?


Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

So it's your assumption. I mean so would that means vampires which don't have 'souls' anymore as they're animated by an alien intelligence can't use a spell scroll?

Fair question.
I agree with you that the text doesn't indicate the "must have a soul" restriction.
But I think that there must be something like that intended, at some point. I have trouble believing that a completely non-living thing such as a golem could read a scroll and have it work, even though there's nothing restricting it.
Or, for that matter, a Skelebot or other simple robot with the right programming.

And a more tangential question would a Machine Person from Phase World be able to read a scroll?
Daniel Stoker

For that matter, could a CS Grunt read a scroll using his armor?

With no real indication what exactly triggers the scroll, we're left pondering philosophical definitions of terms such as "read" and "aloud."

[Grell]

It depends on what your definition of IS is.

[Shark_Force]

So it's your assumption. I mean so would that means vampires which don't have 'souls' anymore as they're animated by an alien intelligence can't use a spell scroll?

Fair question.
I agree with you that the text doesn't indicate the "must have a soul" restriction.
But I think that there must be something like that intended, at some point. I have trouble believing that a completely non-living thing such as a golem could read a scroll and have it work, even though there's nothing restricting it.
Or, for that matter, a Skelebot or other simple robot with the right programming.

And a more tangential question would a Machine Person from Phase World be able to read a scroll?
Daniel Stoker

For that matter, could a CS Grunt read a scroll using his armor?

With no real indication what exactly triggers the scroll, we're left pondering philosophical definitions of terms such as "read" and "aloud."

as an undead being, there's a fairly decent chance the zombie is supposed to have the human "soul" animating the corpse. it isn't entirely clear, mind you.

and as i've noted, the restriction on cameras is with respect to recording the scroll. not to seeing it or reading it. and that's even if we assume the grunt doesn't just have a visor that you can see through from the inside (considering there's no indication that EBA is blinded by power loss, i'm inclined to suggest that by default you can - particularly since there's a robot in SA that specifically notes that it doesn't have any such system as being something unusual, and even more particularly because the blinding flash spell can still work on people with EBA, but won't work on people with cameras for eyes).

(also, golems can't read. the skelebot question is a valid point, though).

[Killer Cyborg]

Does it say that golems CAN'T read?

Because their IQ is high enough for them to learn basic skills, probably including some form of literacy.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for the difference between "reading" and "recording," I'm not sure where that is exactly.
Can a cyborg with cybernetic eyes still read?
Can a person who can phonetically sound out written words "read" them, even if they have no idea what the words mean?

[drewkitty ~..~]

So it's your assumption. I mean so would that means vampires which don't have 'souls' anymore as they're animated by an alien intelligence can't use a spell scroll?

And a more tangential question would a Machine Person from Phase World be able to read a scroll?


Daniel Stoker

According to the original VK book (I have not been able to afford VK revised) the text says that vampires are a mixture of the Vamp intelligence and the soul of the person who died.

MP's, while they are "people" they are still machines. So no that can not use magic in any form.
PB defines/equates having PPE to having a Soul. MP's do not have PPE.
- when the soul leaves the body (i.e. death) the PPE doubles
-Nilix (spell?) the soul harvester.
-etc....

Yes, you need to have read most of the books of all the settings in the whole to have even seen even a fraction of the text that covers this because they are scattered through out the megaversial game books..

[Killer Cyborg]

PPE doubling when the soul leaves isn't equating PPE and the soul.

[Daniel Stoker]

According to the original VK book (I have not been able to afford VK revised) the text says that vampires are a mixture of the Vamp intelligence and the soul of the person who died.

Is it soul or personality because I don't remember the word soul being used but it's been ages since I've gone through the original VK book in detail.

MP's, while they are "people" they are still machines. So no that can not use magic in any form.
PB defines/equates having PPE to having a Soul. MP's do not have PPE.
- as the soul leaves the body the PPE double
-Nilix (spell?) the soul harvester.
-etc....

Yes, you need to have read most of the books of all the settings in the whole to have even seen even a fraction of the text that covers this because they are scattered through out the megaversial game books..

No I'm not sure where PB defines having PPE to having a soul. All kinds of magic items have PPE and no soul and I'm not sure that I'd say animals do.


Daniel Stoker

[eliakon]

So it's your assumption. I mean so would that means vampires which don't have 'souls' anymore as they're animated by an alien intelligence can't use a spell scroll?

And a more tangential question would a Machine Person from Phase World be able to read a scroll?


Daniel Stoker

According to the original VK book (I have not been able to afford VK revised) the text says that vampires are a mixture of the Vamp intelligence and the soul of the person who died.

Source? I know it says that they are a bit of the personality, but I don't recall the word soul being used.

MP's, while they are "people" they are still machines. So no that can not use magic in any form.

Source?

PB defines/equates having PPE to having a Soul.

Again Source? (note that Chinese Infernals in Mystic China have souls, but no PPE)

- as the soul leaves the body the PPE double

Correction, as the body dies. The soul does not have to leave, and infact can have already left.

-Nilix (spell?) the soul harvester.
-etc....

Yes, you need to have read most of the books of all the settings in the whole to have even seen even a fraction of the text that covers this because they are scattered through out the megaversial game books..

Several errors on in this statement
1) this presumes that all statements in all world lines/games apply equally to all other world lines/games
2) this is a blanket statement that presumes its premise (there is more on souls out there) is valid (that's not how it works, you need to prove why your right, not just say 'it is so') and puts the burden of proof on the reader (go read all the books, and then you will see that I am right is not a logically valid statement)
3) based on the errors from the above quotations it seems doubtful that the supposed text that is scattered through out the 'megaversal game books' actually says what it is being presented as saying.

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the original VK book (I have not been able to afford VK revised) the text says that vampires are a mixture of the Vamp intelligence and the soul of the person who died.

VK page 10 "The essence of the person and the fragment of the evil intelligence merge, become one...."
The soul is the essence.

PB defines/equates having PPE to having a Soul.
- when the soul leaves the body (i.e. death) the PPE doubles
-Nilix (spell?) the soul harvester.
-etc....

Statement with supporting text locations.

Other supporting text are in the D. Outbreak in the Soul Barge text.

As I said the text is a line here and a line there spread through out the whole of the megaversial text. (I am excluding both Mechanoides and Recon.)

[The Beast]

So it's your assumption. I mean so would that means vampires which don't have 'souls' anymore as they're animated by an alien intelligence can't use a spell scroll?

Fair question.
I agree with you that the text doesn't indicate the "must have a soul" restriction.
But I think that there must be something like that intended, at some point. I have trouble believing that a completely non-living thing such as a golem could read a scroll and have it work, even though there's nothing restricting it.
Or, for that matter, a Skelebot or other simple robot with the right programming...

Or, for that matter, your iPhone.

Which now makes me wonder, since camera's can't record the words on a scroll, could they transmit the image to several people at once and have them all cast the spell on the scroll? Could it be done if someone's reading over your shoulder while you read from the scroll? I don't recall the scrolls only being restricted to one person using it at a time...

[Mechghost]

Could the "read simple signs" for zombies simply mean they can read "Stop" signs or Arrows pointing etc? not actual writing? Illiterate deadboys can read simple signs just like someone in real life can read street signs but not a notice in a store window. And how would a zombie be able to read anything if it was raised from an illiterate peasant? Does it get smarter by being a zombie?
Same goes for speaking - shambling around going "Brainssss Brainsssss" is speaking a simple sentence but hardly Shakespeare.

just my 2 bits

[Daniel Stoker]

VK page 10 "The essence of the person and the fragment of the evil intelligence merge, become one...."
The soul is the essence.

No, no it's not the essence. The essence is something's basic nature, but that same paragraph all talks about how their life essence is torn out of their body by the fragment essence of the VI.

Other supporting text are in the D. Outbreak in the Soul Barge text.

I'll have to take a look when I get home, but what does it say?


Daniel Stoker

[eliakon]

According to the original VK book (I have not been able to afford VK revised) the text says that vampires are a mixture of the Vamp intelligence and the soul of the person who died.

VK page 10 "The essence of the person and the fragment of the evil intelligence merge, become one...."
The soul is the essence.

No, the soul is the soul. Essence is essence. Words are important, if they don't have the same meaning, then they don't mean the same.

PB defines/equates having PPE to having a Soul.
- when the soul leaves the body (i.e. death) the PPE doubles
-Nilix (spell?) the soul harvester.
-etc....

Statement with supporting text locations.

Other supporting text are in the D. Outbreak in the Soul Barge text.

As I said the text is a line here and a line there spread through out the whole of the megaversial text. (I am excluding both Mechanoides and Recon.)[/quote]
I don't have D. Outbreak, so I can't comment on it. But I can say that your above statement is already flawed.
-There is no explicit statement that having PPE equates to having a soul (unless you can provide one) and in fact we are provided two examples of things that have souls (Chinese Infernals, and Fox Spirits) that do not have PPE.
-Your soul can leave your body before death (Armageddon Unlimited version of Soul Drinking). However your PPE is not released at that point, nor is it doubled since you did not 'die'. Thus 'soul leaving the body' =/= dying =/= PPE Doubling
-Nyxla being able to Harvest souls only shows that souls exist (and are harvestable) since his power is not Harvest PPE, it has nothing to do with a discussion of if souls are related to PPE.

[Mlp7029]

Borgs yes; zombie no because I would call a Borg a somebody and a zombie a something. The spell says anybody. No A.I.s, no robots, not even a transferred intelligence, no machine people, just no machines. Mostly as a G.M. I do not want to deal with zombies armed with scrolls that make them suicide bombers.