mini missiles

[Zer0 Kay]

Why are they unguided IG when source material shows Lancer has to use a HUD monocle for lock on?
How can any missile that has an erratic dance of death/death swarm from launcher to target not be guided?
I couldn't find a prior topic on this issue so if there is one please direct me there.

[drewkitty ~..~]

They mis-used the words sort of typo, they are just not self-guided.

More rants then you'd want on the subject....

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=144875

[guardiandashi]

Why are they unguided IG when source material shows Lancer has to use a HUD monocle for lock on?
How can any missile that has an erratic dance of death/death swarm from launcher to target not be guided?
I couldn't find a prior topic on this issue so if there is one please direct me there.

which is why I have been arguing that unless otherwise specified, based on the evidence mini-missiles are "semi guided" not Self guided.

Semi guided meaning that they use/require external guidance assistance. wheras the "self guided are "fire and forget" missiles"

[Seto Kaiba]

Why are they unguided IG when source material shows Lancer has to use a HUD monocle for lock on?
How can any missile that has an erratic dance of death/death swarm from launcher to target not be guided?
I couldn't find a prior topic on this issue so if there is one please direct me there.

It's one of the more nonsensical departures from the actual material of the series and the OSM.

Even the smallest missiles (micro-missiles) in Macross employ are most definitely guided... in fact, they are MULTIPLY guided. Almost every missile type has at least two different types of guidance, some have three or more... usually a mixture of active and passive guidance technologies that handily meet the RPG's definition of "smart" missiles. The most common arrangement is a mixture of radar, infrared, and optical camera.

The missiles in MOSPEADA are semi-active guided missiles too...

[Chris0013]

there is that...as well as the fact that there are multiple types of mini-missiles but the RPG lumps them all together.

[Seto Kaiba]

there is that...as well as the fact that there are multiple types of mini-missiles but the RPG lumps them all together.

True... though that's something that's pragmatic, but also does considerable injustice to the setting, and results in a LOT of misidentified weapons. Some of it is just downright bizarre, like having a completely superfluous classification of missile in there (OSM micro-missiles ARE the setting's short-range missiles, there's no class below that except man-portable rockets).

[Zer0 Kay]

there is that...as well as the fact that there are multiple types of mini-missiles but the RPG lumps them all together.

True... though that's something that's pragmatic, but also does considerable injustice to the setting, and results in a LOT of misidentified weapons. Some of it is just downright bizarre, like having a completely superfluous classification of missile in there (OSM micro-missiles ARE the setting's short-range missiles, there's no class below that except man-portable rockets).

There's also many kinds of the other classes, and they're all lumped together, so I don't find lumping mini-missiles all in together going against their history of generalization.

[Seto Kaiba]

There's also many kinds of the other classes, and they're all lumped together, so I don't find lumping mini-missiles all in together going against their history of generalization.

Yeah, it's pragmatic... but the Palladium standardized missile table and rule set is a really awful fit for the Robotech and/or Macross II setting(s). Not just in terms of classification by range either... there's a few technologies in there which really aren't a thing in RT, and a few more that are drastically shortsold.

What bothers me more is probably the bizarre misidentifications... like how the 2E RPG's Macross Saga source book lists a single model of missile as a SRM in one launcher and a minimissile in another. (The VF-1's FAST pack and "MLOP", which was what they decided to call the UUM-7 micro-missile pod that doesn't belong in RT anyway.

[jaymz]

I just did a different missile table entirely.

[Tor]

If a missile is not (self)guided then I guess the AI of the power-armor or robot which launched them is sending directions for course alterations to the missile.

[Zer0 Kay]

If a missile is not (self)guided then I guess the AI of the power-armor or robot which launched them is sending directions for course alterations to the missile.

Hmm makes sense but then they're pretty much TOW missiles with wireless comm.

[Seto Kaiba]

If a missile is not (self)guided then I guess the AI of the power-armor or robot which launched them is sending directions for course alterations to the missile.

Hmm makes sense but then they're pretty much TOW missiles with wireless comm.

That's called a "Command Guidance" system, which is one of the types of remote missile guidance.

It's best suited for stationary missile launchers, though, since they're not well suited to firing on the move because of the requirement for at least one semi-fixed frame of reference for navigation. You find that in things like anti-aircraft missile platforms (the Patriot uses this and semi-active homing in tandem) or your wire-guided anti-tank missiles like the BGM-71 TOW.

What's seen in the series indicates that the micro-missiles (what the RPG calls "mini-missiles") are using a form (or multiple forms) of homing guidance, and appear to be active homing "fire and forget" missiles by all indications.

[glitterboy2098]

actually the only time command guidance used to have stationary firers was when it was using physical wires to send the command.. and that wasn't frame of reference issues (even old computers could handle those), it was because a moving firer was more likely to get the wires caught on intervening terrain. (which would be bad, a snag would most likely cause the wires to pull out of the rocket and cause you to miss.)

wireless command guidance (like semi-active radar or radio controlled) just needs the target to be tracked properly, and a computer that can adjust for your own movement.. something that even 1980's tech could do no problem.

though wireless command guidance is more vulnerable to ECM jamming.

[Jefffar]

A lot of missiles use a variation of this form of guidance, receiving periodic or continuous updates from the firing unit. Usually this is combined with some form of terminal guidance mounted in the missile that takes over when approaching the target. This form of guidance is particularly popular with long-range anti-aircraft and anti-balistic missile systems as well as anti-ship missiles.

I know of at least one system that uses command guidance all the way to the target in order to make the missiles smaller, cheaper and faster, the Pantsyr 1 short range SAM system.

Edit: bah, system hang got me ninja'd.

[glitterboy2098]

command guidance missiles currently in use:
semi-active radar guided: (uses homes in on a target illuminated by a firing unit's radar)
RIM-8 Talos
RIM-66 Standard
RIM-174 Standard ERAM
AIM-7 Sparrow
RIM-7 Sea Sparrow
RIM-162 ESSM
Buk missile system
SA-6 Gainful
S-200
S-300
S-400
R-23
R-33
R-27R
etc.

Laser guidance: (homes in on a target illuminated by an IR laser.. very popular and hard to jam)
AGM-65 Maverick
AGM-114 Hellfire
AGM-176 Griffin
Hydra-70 APKWS
Thales Starstreak SAM
IDI LAHAT
RBS 70 SAM
9K112 Kobra/ AT-8 Songster
AS-14 Kedge
9M133 Kornet/AT-14 Spriggan
9M119 Svir/ AT-11 Sniper
9M119M Refleks/ AT-11 Sniper
9K121 Vikhr/AT-16 Scallion
C-704
AS-10 Karen
MBDA Brimstone
etc

Wire Guided Semi-automatic command to line of sight: (commands sent by wires, guidance is computerized to hit a target kept in the sights)
BGM-71 TOW
M47 Dragon
MBDA MILAN
MBDA HOT
Swingfire
Shershen
AT-3 Sagger
9K111 Fagot/AT-4 Spigot
9M113 Konkurs/AT-5
9K115-2 Metis-M/ AT-13 Saxhorn-2
etc

Radio guided Semi-automatic command to line of sight
MBDA HOT
BGM-71 TOW (latest versions)
AT-6 Spiral
AT-8 Songster
9M120 Ataka/AT-9 Spiral-2
etc


note many command guidance missiles have gone through multiple generations, sometimes switching guidance method in the process. (the TOW for example started as a wire guided system, but some of the recent versions use radio instead)

[Seto Kaiba]

command guidance missiles currently in use:
semi-active radar guided:

SARH/SALH is not a form of Command Guidance... the missile is guiding itself using the reflected radar or laser beam from an offboard source. The missile is making its own guidance decisions based on external reference information.

Command guidance is direct transmission of guidance instructions to the missile.

Many of the missiles listed here have multiple guidance systems... switching between semi-active radar homing and command guidance when entering the terminal phase of their flight. Some of the ones listed here, like the RIM-66, only use command guidance on the older marks, and have since gone to a passive infrared or semi-active radar homing scheme without command guidance.

Laser guidance: (homes in on a target illuminated by an IR laser.. very popular and hard to jam)

While it's true that lasers are used in some forms of beam-riding command guidance, the more common form of laser guidance is semi-active laser homing, which is not a form of command guidance.

The difference in application being that, in "beam riding" laser command guidance applications, the missile is tracking to the input of a laser on a sensor on the rear of the missile, and movement of the laser on the back of the missile is used to signal course corrections to the missile. The far more common semi-active laser homing method uses sensors on the front of the missile to receive reflected laser energy from the target's surface and have the missile's onboard guidance use that reference to make course corrections.

Almost all of the missiles listed here are of the semi-active laser homing variety, and are NOT command guided.

Wire Guided Semi-automatic command to line of sight: (commands sent by wires, guidance is computerized to hit a target kept in the sights)

These are actual Command Guidance missiles.

Radio guided Semi-automatic command to line of sight

The common term for these is actually "SALCOS", for "Semi-automatic command to line-of-sight", where the operator has to continually point a sighting device at the target, which computes course corrections and broadcasts them to the missile in flight. This, vs. the previous line item, is just wired vs wireless command guidance systems.

[glitterboy2098]

actually laser and semi-active radar are often counted as command guidance in the real world, because they require the firing unit to actively participate in the guidance process.

[Seto Kaiba]

actually laser and semi-active radar are often counted as command guidance in the real world, because they require the firing unit to actively participate in the guidance process.

*sigh* No, they are not... because homing systems in general DO NOT meet the definition of a "command guidance" system. The way in which the firing unit participates in the guidance process isn't even close to being the same.

To be command guidance, the guidance information to steer the missile onto the target is supplied from a remote source outside the missile... by a physical wire, radio frequency transmission to a receiver on the missile, or a laser sensor to keep the missile aligned in the path of a laser beam pointed at the target. A command guidance system is OFFBOARD guidance, from the missile's perspective. Successfully tracking the target relies on communication between the missile and firing platform.

On semi-active radar/laser guided missiles, the missile contains its own guidance system and uses passive sensors aboard the missile to track reflected laser or radar energy from the surface of the target. There's no guidance information provided from outside the missile, just an information-less laser or radar beam to "paint" the target for detection by the missile's passive sensors. Successful tracking of the target involves no communication between the missile and firing platform.


Put simply... they're polar opposites.

[Jefffar]

Semi-Active Guidance be it radar or laser is definitely not command guidance. In the Semi-Active scenario the missile itself controls the flight, following the energy signature reflected form the target. In command guidance the firing unit directly steers the missile.

That being said, a large number of those listed as Semi-Active Radar missiles also feature the ability to receive mid-course correction updates from the firing unit making them a hybrid of Command and Semi-Active.

[Seto Kaiba]

That being said, a large number of those listed as Semi-Active Radar missiles also feature the ability to receive mid-course correction updates from the firing unit making them a hybrid of Command and Semi-Active.

It's something common to platform-launched surface-to-air missiles, which is what most of those are... tho it's worth noting that a few of them have variants or later production blocks that dispensed with command guidance in favor of multiple homing systems or inertial guidance.

[Tor]

Although Robotech doesn't deal as much with inter-dimensional portals as much as Rifts, that does bring up some interesting considerations for missiles.

If you fired a missile at an enemy who ran through (or was already on the other side of) a Rift (aka Dimensional Portal) which then closed..

Presumably a Smart Missile, being self-guided and all that, could continue pursuit and stuff...

Whereas a 'dumb' unguided missile (point and shoot, straight-line, etc) could not course-correct, so hopefully you had a good eye on the guy...

and then there's that vague middle-ground of a non-smart yet self-guided missile... or was that guided by the launcher? If a rift closed then the launcher/robot could no longer send course directions to a missile... so it could not participate in any ongoing process...

Although I'm not sure if anything but smart even is an ongoing process. The guidance by the launcher may simply involve knowing how to pre-emptively fire at the position something is going to be in by the time the missile impacts.

[Seto Kaiba]

Although Robotech doesn't deal as much with inter-dimensional portals as much as Rifts, that does bring up some interesting considerations for missiles.

It didn't really deal with any...

If you fired a missile at an enemy who ran through (or was already on the other side of) a Rift (aka Dimensional Portal) which then closed..

Presumably a Smart Missile, being self-guided and all that, could continue pursuit and stuff...

Whereas a 'dumb' unguided missile (point and shoot, straight-line, etc) could not course-correct, so hopefully you had a good eye on the guy...

Depends on the type of homing system... and whether the portal would interrupt the infrared heat trace, radar reflectivity, etc. of the target.

Although I'm not sure if anything but smart even is an ongoing process. The guidance by the launcher may simply involve knowing how to pre-emptively fire at the position something is going to be in by the time the missile impacts.

All homing is an ongoing process while the missile is in flight... on active homing missiles, the missile is scanning for the target using its radar and tracking the radar return, while on semi-active homing missiles the missile is tracking the reflection of the radar or laser energy bounced off the target by the launching craft until detonation, and passive homing has the missile continuously tracking infrared emissions of the target.

[Tiree]

One of the factors that need to be addressed is how quickly can the missile reach the target. In most instances it is done in less than action, therefore even if a rift closed, it would have a result (good or bad).

[Zer0 Kay]

Although Robotech doesn't deal as much with inter-dimensional portals as much as Rifts, that does bring up some interesting considerations for missiles.

If you fired a missile at an enemy who ran through (or was already on the other side of) a Rift (aka Dimensional Portal) which then closed..

Presumably a Smart Missile, being self-guided and all that, could continue pursuit and stuff...

Whereas a 'dumb' unguided missile (point and shoot, straight-line, etc) could not course-correct, so hopefully you had a good eye on the guy...

and then there's that vague middle-ground of a non-smart yet self-guided missile... or was that guided by the launcher? If a rift closed then the launcher/robot could no longer send course directions to a missile... so it could not participate in any ongoing process...

Although I'm not sure if anything but smart even is an ongoing process. The guidance by the launcher may simply involve knowing how to pre-emptively fire at the position something is going to be in by the time the missile impacts.

Command guidance: Guidance not on missile probably mini missiles
Guide: track target but once track/lock is lost it will not re-aquire
Smart: if lock is lost the missile will turn and re-aquire the SAME target. It's so amrt it doesn't turn around back toward you and aquire you as its new target.

[Tor]

One of the factors that need to be addressed is how quickly can the missile reach the target. In most instances it is done in less than action, therefore even if a rift closed, it would have a result (good or bad).

It's a weird situation, we are given a fixed speed which I assume is the maximum, but logically a missile would not be travelling max-speed right off the bat and there would be an acceleration phase...

For that reason I'd kind of like to give a bonus to dodge or shoot down missiles at close range since they should be slower...

But on the other hand, even if they were faster when they reached you, if you saw them coming from further off that could still result in more time to respond and get out of the way, so maybe not.

[The Beast]

Yeah, it's pragmatic... but the Palladium standardized missile table and rule set is really awful.

Fixed.

[ShadowLogan]

One of the factors that need to be addressed is how quickly can the missile reach the target. In most instances it is done in less than action, therefore even if a rift closed, it would have a result (good or bad).

I actually worked that out once and have it available.

Missile Flight times in seconds based on their listed speed out to maximum range (atmosphere):
-Mini Missiles have a flight time of ~2.5 to 7.2sec depending on the type
-Short Range Missile have a flight time range of ~9sec to ~36sec depending on the type
-Medium Range Missiles have a flight time range of ~90sec to 240sec depending on the type
-Long Range Missiles have a flight time range of ~895sec to ~3223sec depending on the type

Divide the Range (miles) by the Speed (mph) to get the time (in hr), you then multiple time (in hr) by 3600 (or 60*60) for the time in seconds.