Martial Styles and Magic

[SpiritInterface]

An interesting question came up and I was asked to post it here. If a character has a Martial Style can they throw a Spell while in style during a melee round? or use a Psionic ability?

[Nightmask]

Why wouldn't they be able to? Nothing about hand to hand skills locks out using any abilities, you just don't get to add the bonuses from the style to those other abilities since they aren't part of the style.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why wouldn't they be able to? Nothing about hand to hand skills locks out using any abilities, you just don't get to add the bonuses from the style to those other abilities since they aren't part of the style.

Pretty much.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is nothing that says using a Martial Art Forms blocks use of Psionics or Magic or natural abilities. They just can't change between MAF in the middle of a melee.

The closest text about MAF use and Magic use is in the Mystic China book. Where the setting's only canon magic user class has to have a retired Martial Artist with one of a specific set of MAF which was the route for them get interested into magic. The however part is that that type of magic takes a whole melee round/15 seconds to form their magic. So is almost irrelevant to the discussion other then being mentioned to avoid the someone else bringing it up as a "But wait.....what about....". ✔ done.

But I am coming from the N&S and MC view point.

Coming from the rifts china view point.....since the MA powers there are psionic in nature there is no logic blocks for them from using psionics....if they had more psionics other then their MA powers.

Magic.....even thou most psions have burned their PPE to develop their psionic powers, there is no notation about the Rifts China Martial Artists' PPE bases being used to develop their psionic MA powers. So the jury is out and I doubt any answer will be forthcoming because of writer death and the third RC book was never written.

So the easy way out would be to follow the KISS way of thinking and say that yes a mage could use magic while using the RC mystic MA styles.
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Looking at the other side of the coin....

I can see a GM requiring for his game that the char has a Kata that allows the char to use their magic or Psi or special ability during the use of that MAF.

[Mechghost]

I think Drew may have it right - a special Kata to be able to use magic in a MAF, for Psi powers I'm not sure, a telepathic message for example wouldn't interfere with the MAF but using TK to throw something may, GMs discretion on that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think Drew may have it right - a special Kata to be able to use magic in a MAF, for Psi powers I'm not sure, a telepathic message for example wouldn't interfere with the MAF but using TK to throw something may, GMs discretion on that.

Not advocating the above....was only looking at how GM's might restrict things & saying I would not be surprised if it happened. However, this is a char creation issue more then anything since a WK takes up a skill slot.

Another however, mages take about as long to train as Martial Artists so they would not have the time to learn a full fledged MAF. And this is where the quickie MAFs called H2H's come into play..which can be learned in a short time.

[Mechghost]

Just meant you may have hit on a good compromise for a very uncommon situation. Didn't mean you were advocating anything.

[Nightmask]

I think Drew may have it right - a special Kata to be able to use magic in a MAF, for Psi powers I'm not sure, a telepathic message for example wouldn't interfere with the MAF but using TK to throw something may, GMs discretion on that.

Except that doesn't actually make any sense, the spell or psionic power isn't part of the MA nor is it being integrated into the MA where you'd justify having a kata for it. ANYONE with a HtH skill logically must be using whatever they know while in their style because you can't not be a HtH trained person you're always in that style. The only purpose of katas is to use a weapon that's not normally part of the MA as part of it, granting the MA's specific bonuses to things like attack and damage to the item in question which simply isn't applicable to spells or psionic powers (or super-powers for that matter).

So just as the guy with Tae Kwon Do can still use a gun (but without his MA bonuses), using up one of his attacks each time he uses the gun the mage or psionic would similarly simply be using the spell or psionic in place of one or more of those actions.

[SpiritInterface]

I think Drew may have it right - a special Kata to be able to use magic in a MAF, for Psi powers I'm not sure, a telepathic message for example wouldn't interfere with the MAF but using TK to throw something may, GMs discretion on that.

Except that doesn't actually make any sense, the spell or psionic power isn't part of the MA nor is it being integrated into the MA where you'd justify having a kata for it. ANYONE with a HtH skill logically must be using whatever they know while in their style because you can't not be a HtH trained person you're always in that style. The only purpose of katas is to use a weapon that's not normally part of the MA as part of it, granting the MA's specific bonuses to things like attack and damage to the item in question which simply isn't applicable to spells or psionic powers (or super-powers for that matter).

So just as the guy with Tae Kwon Do can still use a gun (but without his MA bonuses), using up one of his attacks each time he uses the gun the mage or psionic would similarly simply be using the spell or psionic in place of one or more of those actions.

Actually N&S states that you need a Special Kata to be able to use a firearm in style.

[Glistam]

The only benefit to using a weapon "in style" (other than looking good) is that you get the martial art form's bonuses with the weapon added to the W.P. bonuses of the weapon. If you don't have the kata you can still use the weapon, even if you're fighting in a specific martial art form. You just can't add any of the bonuses to strike, parry, disarm, throw, etcetera, that the martial art form provided to the rolls for the weapon. Only the weapon's W.P. bonuses, any bonuses provided by the weapon itself, and the character's P.P. bonuses will apply in that situation.

So yes, a character in a martial art form "style" can use a spell or psionic power. They do not get to add any of the martial art form's bonuses to any rolls the spell or psionic power may require (such as throwing bonuses, or parry bonuses, or w/e).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Actually N&S states that you need a Special Kata to be able to use a firearm in style.

What it does says "To use a weapon with any form it's necessary to learn a special weapon kata." on page 81.

And "Weapon Katas: Using any weapon with a martial art form takes special training. ...... The only way to use a weapon not listed under weapons katas is to buy it using one of the Specialty Kata skills. Many forms have no katas and can not be used with weapons." on page 82.

And "The use of a weapon with a martial art form, combining the form bonuses with the weapon skills, is only possible with a weapon kata. ....." on page 83.

There is also the Weapon Kata text on page 123.

The Kata & Spec. Kata text on page 131 is the same as on page 168 of Mystic China.

So the text say both 'To be able to use a weapon with MAFs you have to have a WK for that weapon.' and 'The WK combines the WP and MAF bonuses together.'
(The Special Kata text on page 157 of MC if virtually the same as the same text on page 122 of N&S. But this text does not have relevance to this discussion. So this is just a mentioning of something and dismissing it before someone goes..."but what about this text over here......")

No where does it say anything about modern weapons while talking about WKs. Leaving if WKs can be taken for modern weapon WPs open for GMs to decide ,otherwise modern weapons can not be used with MAF.[/i]

However, the Modern Weapon WP bonuses are still do not not combined with any MAF bonuses, including h2h's. Yes, there is the Triad Assassin that uses 9mm firearm pistols but ALL the bonuses are already included into the numbers. (Rifter side note: there is a Gun-Fu in the second Rifter with MAF in it.)

[Nightmask]

I think Drew may have it right - a special Kata to be able to use magic in a MAF, for Psi powers I'm not sure, a telepathic message for example wouldn't interfere with the MAF but using TK to throw something may, GMs discretion on that.

Except that doesn't actually make any sense, the spell or psionic power isn't part of the MA nor is it being integrated into the MA where you'd justify having a kata for it. ANYONE with a HtH skill logically must be using whatever they know while in their style because you can't not be a HtH trained person you're always in that style. The only purpose of katas is to use a weapon that's not normally part of the MA as part of it, granting the MA's specific bonuses to things like attack and damage to the item in question which simply isn't applicable to spells or psionic powers (or super-powers for that matter).

So just as the guy with Tae Kwon Do can still use a gun (but without his MA bonuses), using up one of his attacks each time he uses the gun the mage or psionic would similarly simply be using the spell or psionic in place of one or more of those actions.

Actually N&S states that you need a Special Kata to be able to use a firearm in style.

Might want to recheck that, since there's only one MA (Triad Assassin Training) that makes modern firearms available (and only a narrow type of 9mm handguns at that), you can't take a weapon kata to incorporate modern fireams into any other styles those only apply to ancient weapons.

[SpiritInterface]

I think Drew may have it right - a special Kata to be able to use magic in a MAF, for Psi powers I'm not sure, a telepathic message for example wouldn't interfere with the MAF but using TK to throw something may, GMs discretion on that.

Except that doesn't actually make any sense, the spell or psionic power isn't part of the MA nor is it being integrated into the MA where you'd justify having a kata for it. ANYONE with a HtH skill logically must be using whatever they know while in their style because you can't not be a HtH trained person you're always in that style. The only purpose of katas is to use a weapon that's not normally part of the MA as part of it, granting the MA's specific bonuses to things like attack and damage to the item in question which simply isn't applicable to spells or psionic powers (or super-powers for that matter).

So just as the guy with Tae Kwon Do can still use a gun (but without his MA bonuses), using up one of his attacks each time he uses the gun the mage or psionic would similarly simply be using the spell or psionic in place of one or more of those actions.

Actually N&S states that you need a Special Kata to be able to use a firearm in style.

Might want to recheck that, since there's only one MA (Triad Assassin Training) that makes modern firearms available (and only a narrow type of 9mm handguns at that), you can't take a weapon kata to incorporate modern fireams into any other styles those only apply to ancient weapons.

It doesn't say that. "Weapon Kata or Kobu-Jutsu. This simply allows the character to use a particular weapon with any martial art form. Unlike other katas, this is does not have the restrictions of requiring a full melee round or of not allowing other actions. It's good for one W.P. only and one martial art form only! Taking this kata automatically gives the character full W.P. with the weapon named." The ability doesn't restrict the type of weapon, just limits it to a particular weapon0. So you can add any weapon in any form that allows you to take Special Kata: weapon kata