E-books

[Blackbunny2]

I know this has been brought up before, and that there are some PDFS available at Drivetrough. In all honesty I think not releasing the new books on pdf as they release is a mistake. As a scandinavian fan, I have to pay more for shipping and import taxes then the book costs.
Cant find the source right now, but several scandinavian studies done on digital media and pirating. Has drawn the conclusion, that in our society the number one reason for pirating is availability not money/cost. Here in Norway everyone has spotify,netflix and steam. And the only thing that suffers massive pirating here is Game of thrones, and other american tv shows since they refuse to launch the shows at the same time (HBO Nordic broadcasts GOT months after its done in the US.. )
Im willing to pay for your products, but they are not available or its so inconvenient for me that it turns me off

Much love from a Norwegian fan..

[FatherMorpheus]

Provide a superior product, and people will pay for it over getting it for free.

Don't believe me. I present to you Bottled Water! People pay a fortune for it, and you can get it for free in most developed countries.

+1 for PDFs!

[Tiree]

Provide a superior product, and people will pay for it over getting it for free.

Don't believe me. I present to you Bottled Water! People pay a fortune for it, and you can get it for free in most developed countries.

+1 for PDFs!

It's more expensive than Gas!

[Forar]

Steam has also proven that even in 'pirate heavy' markets, they can reap substantial sales based on providing a convenient and high quality product at a reasonable price.

Hell, they find net profits go up during massive sales, due to the simply staggering number of people buying in. The profit per unit goes down, but the units being moved skyrockets.

And with digital, the 'per unit' costs are essentially negligible compared to producing physical products and having to transport and store them.

[jaymz]

+1 on PDFs.....with caveats.

First of all, many who oppose it seem to think whenever this is brought up that is an either or proposition. I am not in favour of that at all. I want my dead tree in my hands when I am at home thank you very much. I want both. That being said I would like to see it done in such a way that dead tree is first then PDF released at the +6 month range afterwards. This way it won't really affect physical sales as the first 6 months is almost ALWAYS the biggest sales period for any book and then they tail off.

[Josh Hilden]

Making the file for a print book and making the file for a PDF can be done damn near concurrently. Yes there are a few different steps but the time and effort is negligible.

[cornholioprime]

+1 on PDFs.....with caveats.

First of all, many who oppose it seem to think whenever this is brought up that is an either or proposition. I am not in favour of that at all. I want my dead tree in my hands when I am at home thank you very much. I want both. That being said I would like to see it done in such a way that dead tree is first then PDF released at the +6 month range afterwards. This way it won't really affect physical sales as the first 6 months is almost ALWAYS the biggest sales period for any book and then they tail off.

This scenario seems to be the most economically viable thus far presented.

Win-win for the Kevin -Book Sales in the beginning, and electronic exposure to ever-greater numbers of people afterward!

(NOTE: I assume in advance that Kevin has a damned solid, perfectly logical reason why he doesn't want to do this -assuming for the sake of argument that he knows exactly what E-Books are and has heard an exhaustive list of pros and cons by this point in time, given to him by honest people without an agenda of their own.)

[Warshield73]

First, most statisticians agree that when you ask people why they do something that is illegal or immoral they are almost always going to lie about the reason to make themselves sound better so most of the availability vs. cost statistic lack reliability.

Second, the water in most American cities tastes like $@%! so I don't think most people would describe it as a "quality" product. Also, availability of free, non-$@%! tasting, water in a given place can all but eliminate the sales of bottled. I have a fairly good example of this at the school I work at where all the bottled water has been removed from vending machines after filtered water was put in place.

Third, the time & digital infrastructure create and sell a digital product is not "negligible". I am involved in creating supplemental materials for other teachers and the work has been ridiculous. Also, just pointing out that with all the time and effort PB has put into creating the PDFs for Lemuria, NG1, & NG2 these forums are loaded with complaints about the quality and functions or features that they lack. You also have to measure this in terms of opportunity cost, every minute they are turning physical books into quality digital products is a minute behind in the production of other books, and if there is one thing PB does NOT need help with it is falling behind in the production schedule.

Finally, every time this subject comes up I ask the same question of people they same question. How much should an e-book from PB cost that would keep people from stealing it? Most of the answers I have gotten are so low PB would be gone in a matter of weeks. KS has said over and over again that printing and storage are some of his smaller costs compared to paying writers, artists, and hey just keeping the lights on.

I think PB should sell all books as digital, within at least the month of the book coming out, but this will not solve any of PBs problems. Selling the digital at a price people will pay instead of stealing it will not make PB buckets of money.

Producing digital products is not win-win for PB, it is loose less - loose less. Some people, will buy, some will still steal. Some people who can not get the physical books in there markets will buy them, some won't. There is nothing to indicate that this will be the big game changer that so many people are trying to make it out to be though.

[Forar]

Finally, every time this subject comes up I ask the same question of people they same question. How much should an e-book from PB cost that would keep people from stealing it? Most of the answers I have gotten are so low PB would be gone in a matter of weeks.

Bull.

A guy I was chatting with at a convention snagged almost every book they've ever made in a single torrent earlier this year, because he didn't want to pay for all the Robotech books (the matter came up while discussing the kickstarter).

The books are already available digitally if one is willing to hunt for them, and it hasn't killed or crippled PB yet.

By this argument, Steam selling games at a 20-80% discount during sales should be shuttering studios left and right, and yet as noted above, *profits* reportedly go up during said sales. Many studios actively look forward to participating in said events, because of how lucrative they can be.

Ebooks haven't *killed* retail book stores (though the competition may cause things to get ugly in time, that remains to be seen), Steam and Origin and GOG haven't *killed* retail game sales, you are arguing that somehow Palladium is so unique or different that their fanbase would never buy another book again just because something that is already available illegally became legally available at a reasonable price.

Shenanigans.

[jaymz]

1 - no the time IS negligible by comparison of actually putting the book together.

2 - the reason it has taken so long with the few they have done is that Wayne does them when he has time in his already full plate. If they decide to this, they would need someone up focus on doing the conversion and that one project until it's done. THAT would speed up the time considerably not to mention as a published author said early the bulk of the work can actually be done during the book's digital layout phase.

3 - it is not lose less-lose less. Yes some people will lie as to why they download. Some do not. Those that are lying are not a lost sale or potentially lost sale. That's not how it works. They are sales that never were and never will be. People like me who have to make our own using our own books are lost potential sales.

4 - no one here has said this is a magic cure all for palladium so this little tangent can go by the wayside. Also no one has said it would make them buckets of money. It would be a revenue stream that is not a revenue stream right now. That's it. A reasonably price to me would be 50-60% of the the cover price. The cost of art and writers would be covered by the initial print book run making the digital sales pure sales (part of the reason I'd prefer they wait 6 months to release the digital copy). Furthermore the price if the book has very little to do with what they pay the artists and writers as that is development costs not production. Unless he is paying them exorbitantly their cost is fairly small in the cover price of the first print run. I've talked to several published authors that have confirmed this.

5 - unless you are telling me you've been to every state as proof their water quality is as bad as you say, then it is quite presumptuous to make that claim. I've been all over the eastern half of the US (thus I cannot make any claims to the western half) and the water quality was just fine by and large.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you guys are willing to pay full book price for PDF versions, you can probably get Palladium to start putting them out someday.
If not, then not.

[Forar]

If you guys are willing to pay full book price for PDF versions, you can probably get Palladium to start putting them out someday.
If not, then not.

Or they could follow the DVD route. Will I pay $27 for the digital version? No, but I'll pay $30 for the Blu-Ray/DVD/Digital box set. Granted, books have special considerations compared to dvds (issues protecting the code 'in the wild'), but it doesn't have to be an 'either/or' situation. There is room for both.

Hell, they could make the Premium copies initially only available through their web store. Full MSRP plus a little extra for the digital version seems potentially lucrative.

Also, why the emphasis on full MSRP? Kindle books sell just fine at a lower price point and haven't killed off 'dead tree editions'. And as noted above, Steam is a purely digital distribution platform that see simply absurd boosts in purchases during sales time. Much like Walmart, you can still make money hand over fist if your profit per unit goes down but your units sold jumps through the roof.

I mean, oh no, getting only $1 from a discounted Digital version of Triax 2 instead of $5 seems terrible, unless they are selling ten times as many copies.

Plus the advantages of it being impossible to run out of copies, compared to limitations as to how many they can keep on hand eating up warehouse space.

At the end of the day, it's their call to make, but the advantages and 'risks' seem awfully low. Other platforms (iTunes, Steam) have proven that DD can be very lucrative. Piracy is a non-starter; if that were the threat, they'd already be out of business. As was noted above, if the fear is that sales will fall as people go for 'cheaper' digital copies, simply make them available a month or three or six after the base book goes out.

There are vast opportunities that are being thrown out with, imo, flimsy handwaving that ignores the realities of business as we speak.

[Josh Hilden]

Third, the time & digital infrastructure create and sell a digital product is not "negligible". I am involved in creating supplemental materials for other teachers and the work has been ridiculous. Also, just pointing out that with all the time and effort PB has put into creating the PDFs for Lemuria, NG1, & NG2 these forums are loaded with complaints about the quality and functions or features that they lack. You also have to measure this in terms of opportunity cost, every minute they are turning physical books into quality digital products is a minute behind in the production of other books, and if there is one thing PB does NOT need help with it is falling behind in the production schedule.

Actually like I said when done concurrently with assembling the file for the print version it is negligible.

This happens to be one of my jobs too.

[Blackbunny2]

Actually I think releasing the book later on PDF is a mistake. Since the people who don't want to wait will just pirate it. Because what PB needs to do IMHO is to increase their market demography. There is a whole world out there that have a really hard time getting a hold of PB products. Look at spotify, iTunes, netflix, and steam.. You can buy gift cards with digital store credit, in my local supermarket, and this is in the 70k Town of Tromsø, way frigging north of the Arctic circle in Norway. Pb won't lose money by digitalizing their store, they are losing now since everything (almost) is already available illegally.

[ffranceschi]

Sooner or later PB will turn to PDFs and sell all their products in both formats (physical and digital). Resistance is futile. I tried with Facebook, Twitter and G+ (I really don't like Social Networks) but at the end being out was not an option. I try to use them in a way that fits my purposes but I am in. PB will eventually realize the same with PDFs (as Wizards of the Coast did when they decided to "return" to the digital world after being out for years). It's not a matter of "if they are going to do it" but "when".

[BuzzardB]

I would be up for half-price PDF's, though I think following Paizo's $9.99 PDF route is better myself. I don't think they need to wait 6 months before releasing a PDF after a physical book, BUT if doing that means PDFs are more likely to happen then I am good with it. Small steps and all that.

I can only speak for myself obviously, but Pathfinder and Savage Worlds $10-15 PDFs are inexpensive enough and well put-together enough to buy on top of buying a physical copy which is great. More money for them, more quality product for me. If the PDFs cost the same as a physical book (like World of Darkness ones on RPGDriveThru, they cost $25 which is what I used to buy their gorgeous hardcovers from amazon for) then I personally would have no interest in buying them, I would just buy physical copies.

[Tiree]

Sooner or later PB will turn to PDFs and sell all their products in both formats (physical and digital). Resistance is futile. I tried with Facebook, Twitter and G+ (I really don't like Social Networks) but at the end being out was not an option. I try to use them in a way that fits my purposes but I am in. PB will eventually realize the same with PDFs (as Wizards of the Coast did when they decided to "return" to the digital world after being out for years). It's not a matter of "if they are going to do it" but "when".

I shall not bow down to social networking!
Amazingly enough I still do not have a Myspace, Twitter, Facebook, G+ accounts. I do have linkedIn that I barely use and now my company is forcing me to use Yammer and Sharepoint which is lame and stupid. But we are a microsoft shop, and it makes sense for us to use it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

First, most statisticians agree that when you ask people why they do something that is illegal or immoral they are almost always going to lie about the reason to make themselves sound better so most of the availability vs. cost statistic lack reliability.

Sounds like common sense but can you cite your sources that state this? Or is it your opinion?

Second, the water in most American cities tastes like $@%! so I don't think most people would describe it as a "quality" product. Also, availability of free, non-$@%! tasting, water in a given place can all but eliminate the sales of bottled. I have a fairly good example of this at the school I work at where all the bottled water has been removed from vending machines after filtered water was put in place.

I find this highly doubtful. Most people can't tell the difference between bottled and tap water. The reason? Most bottled water -is- tap water and is bottled realitivly close to the place it's sold. Straight from the tap, same as everyone gets theirs. In 'taste tests' water is... you know. Water. Unless there are significant additives to it that would show up, water is pretty much just water. Are their microscopic differences? Sure.. But most people can't tell the difference in honest taste tests. (For the record. Wine snobs routinely fail the blind taste tests with bottles of wine that cost $1000 and ones that cost $20. People that do it for a living often do. Not just once or twice but on a routine basis.). Does some water taste different than others? Sure, some pipes are dirty. Some are older than others. Mineral deposits etc. But the majority of Bottled water doesn't come from pure mountain streams off in remote wilderness. It's bottled in the same places that make your coke or pepsi. Straight from the tap. Chances are your school didn't pull bottled water from the vending machines due to filtered water being put into place, but just that bottled water doesn't sell quite so much as it used to, with people using their own filters and stuff at home.

Third, the time & digital infrastructure create and sell a digital product is not "negligible".

It really is. Basic PDF's can be formed literally with the 'Convert to PDF' function. Advanced ones aren't much harder. People like to wave it around like you're cracking the atom but it's really not that hard. People make them all the time from their own palladium books. Have for years.

I am involved in creating supplemental materials for other teachers and the work has been ridiculous.

I'm very sorry to hear it. You may not have the right program or might just be doing it the hard way out of ignorance. It's NOT ridiculously hard. If it was you wouldn't find 100s of torrents of almost every Palladium book made for 30 years.

I've made a PDF from one of my own game books, for absolutely ---no other reason--- than to see if I could, and how hard it'd be. With a flat bed scanner, it's not hard at all. Just scanning the pages it took me about an hour. If you have the digital files for the product (Which I did not) It would be much faster.

Also, just pointing out that with all the time and effort PB has put into creating the PDFs for Lemuria, NG1, & NG2 these forums are loaded with complaints about the quality and functions or features that they lack.

Not really. If you look there are a few complaints, but many times more demands for more PDF's. If you -do- look, I'd guess those complaining often are the ones that didn't want PDF's to start with, but that's my guess. You don't see full threads of people complaining about the 'new' PDFs. Some of the "old" ones get some complaints about how shoddy they are.

You also have to measure this in terms of opportunity cost, every minute they are turning physical books into quality digital products is a minute behind in the production of other books, and if there is one thing PB does NOT need help with it is falling behind in the production schedule.

You weigh it against "Printing" an "Stocking" and "Shipping" and "re-ordering" as well. You don't have to print the PDF, you don't have to Stock it (and pay for the space to stock it. It's infinate stock, with no storage space) You don't have to have someone pull it from stock and then ship it. No worry about damage in shipping etc. You produce one PDF and you can sell millions from that same file. Never again having to worry about printing it or moving it around, boxing or shipping. Now, I'm not saying Pally is selling millions, but the point remains.

Yes some time will be spent to produce the first PDF, but it's not the same time invested with each. Once it's produced, it's pure profit from then on.

Finally, every time this subject comes up I ask the same question of people they same question. How much should an e-book from PB cost that would keep people from stealing it? Most of the answers I have gotten are so low PB would be gone in a matter of weeks. KS has said over and over again that printing and storage are some of his smaller costs compared to paying writers, artists, and hey just keeping the lights on.

It's an empty question. I'm not being mean in any way. The books are out there for free -now- if you want to steal them. Between 2 and 10 minutes of looking can net you 100s of Palladium books in bundles that will download for free if that's what you want to do. A bit more effort to find the rest. I know. I've looked. This debate has been going for years. I think the 'pirates' are full up all the way to NG 1. but I've not looked for NG 2 or MiF. I wouldn't know about those, but at last check you can get almost any book you want through NG 1 for free.

IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

So asking how cheep the books would need to be to prevent piracy is a false question. They're out there for free now. Nothing's stopping the people that 'want' to pirate them from pirating them. It's not hard. It's not difficult to find them. So having more PDF's won't make it easier, if it's 2-10 minutes or less and one or two mouse clicks now, the difference isn't gong to some how spawn MORE pirates. "Oh well if I had to spend 2 to 10 minutes(if that) before that was too much like work for $1000s in free books, but now that it's 1-2 minutes I'll do it". That's just not going to happen. People that are going to pirate are going to Pirate. It's 'so easy' now that there's not really a 'easier' form or function for it.

Producing PDF's legally gives the -option- for those of us (like myself) That ---want--- to pay for the PDF's to give Palladium our money for them. Letting us Pay, won't make pirates not pirate, but letting us pay will bring in the $$$ that Palladium is turning down. And even if it's not often said, there ARE some people that down load the illegal copies of PDFs, that would stop doing so, if they 'could' buy them legally. It's not likely that they'll raise their hand to be banned for admitting it, but they are out there. Trust me.

I think PB should sell all books as digital, within at least the month of the book coming out, but this will not solve any of PBs problems. Selling the digital at a price people will pay instead of stealing it will not make PB buckets of money.

You're looking at the wrong target market with this statement. You need to forget about Pirates. If they want to, they're going to pirate. Look at it instead as "Right now there's a customer base begging for new PDF's. It's a product they want, that they cannot currently buy from us (Palladium) The "Demand" is there. To tap said market, we need only supply it"

Producing digital products is not win-win for PB, it is loose less - loose less. Some people, will buy, some will still steal.

Those that want to steal, steal already. Those that want to buy, cannot.

Producing the digital products opens that money to palladium. Money they are not currently taking in.

Some people who can not get the physical books in there markets will buy them, some won't. There is nothing to indicate that this will be the big game changer that so many people are trying to make it out to be though.

You haven't ever heard of the kindle? Or how pretty much anyone who's anyone agrees that E-publishing is the way of the future. You haven't heard of now many millions Amazon makes every day selling ebooks?

Part of the 'anger' that is out there for Palladium is just that sort of statement that you made. It was stated (Admittedly a while back) That some thought Ebooks were a fad and didn't know if they should invest in something that might be a flash in the pan. yet year after year, kindles sell and sell and sell. Tablets sell and sell and sell. Smart phones sell and sell and sell. (and are getting 'bigger' so you can have more on the screen) Ebooks sell and sell and sell and sell. Both normal Ebooks and in the RPG community.

Nor does it have to be a game changer. It's another product that at least some, of your customer base wants.

If 'A' is your physical book sales, and 'B' is your Digital book sales, A+B is more than just A. Now I know, someone's going to say "Well some that buy 'B' Are no longer going to buy 'A'. And yes, that's sometimes true, but you also have to factor in, people like myself. Like others here, that do not buy "A" --or--"B" but instead. "A AND B" For Shadowrun and such I buy every physical book they produce. I get their PDF's along with them. They get my money twice (at slight discount for buying both)

Now, think of this... if sales of 'B' -do- eclipse sales of 'A', what does that tell you? It tells you that people DO want their digital books more than the physical. That's not a bad thing, if that's the case, you bring up the price of 'B'. This goes for anything.

If "A" is Hotdogs, and you've always sold hot dogs but people want cheese burgers too and Cheese burgers are 'B'. A+B is going to be more than "A" alone. If the sales of 'B' out sell "A" then you sell more "B" and make the money that way. Supply and Demand. If you're in a place that wants more cheese burgers but you refuse and will ONLY Sell hotdogs, that's on you. If your cheese burgers out sell your hotdogs, that should tell you. "PEOPLE WANT CHEESE BURGERS" make cheese burgers your primary and sell hotdogs on the side. It's not going to be a 100% switch either way.

[zyanitevp]

+1 on PDFs.....with caveats.

First of all, many who oppose it seem to think whenever this is brought up that is an either or proposition. I am not in favour of that at all. I want my dead tree in my hands when I am at home thank you very much. I want both. That being said I would like to see it done in such a way that dead tree is first then PDF released at the +6 month range afterwards. This way it won't really affect physical sales as the first 6 months is almost ALWAYS the biggest sales period for any book and then they tail off.

I agree with Jaymz- again...
Man, time to go to a shrink- this habit is concerning me.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you guys are willing to pay full book price for PDF versions, you can probably get Palladium to start putting them out someday.
If not, then not.

Or they could follow the DVD route. Will I pay $27 for the digital version? No, but I'll pay $30 for the Blu-Ray/DVD/Digital box set. Granted, books have special considerations compared to dvds (issues protecting the code 'in the wild'), but it doesn't have to be an 'either/or' situation. There is room for both.

Hell, they could make the Premium copies initially only available through their web store. Full MSRP plus a little extra for the digital version seems potentially lucrative

Also, why the emphasis on full MSRP? Kindle books sell just fine at a lower price point and haven't killed off 'dead tree editions'. And as noted above, Steam is a purely digital distribution platform that see simply absurd boosts in purchases during sales time. Much like Walmart, you can still make money hand over fist if your profit per unit goes down but your units sold jumps through the roof.

I mean, oh no, getting only $1 from a discounted Digital version of Triax 2 instead of $5 seems terrible, unless they are selling ten times as many copies.

Plus the advantages of it being impossible to run out of copies, compared to limitations as to how many they can keep on hand eating up warehouse space..

Might get away with a bit below full price, but probably not by much.
A big part of the cost of a RPG book is the artwork, and I get the impression that Palladium doesn't have a big per unit profit as it is, because of the art and other reasons.
So a big markdown doesn't seem feasible.

The fastest way to get Palladium to do Ebooks is to make it clear that there will be profit in it for them.
Paying full book price will do that.
Not much else will.

In theory, they'd make up for lower profit through volume... But I doubt it. The market for Palladium books is mostly made up of a relatively set number of people, and ebooks wouldn't change that as far as I can see.

At the end of the day, it's their call to make, but the advantages and 'risks' seem awfully low.

Yeah, "seem," from our limited perspective.
Armchair quarterbacking is always simpler than doing the real thing.

[Rallan]

The fastest way to get Palladium to do Ebooks is to make it clear that there will be profit in it for them.
Paying full book price will do that.
Not much else will.

Charging full book price will doom the whole project though, since customers are used to paying less for ebooks than they do for print editions of the same title.

Although to be honest, I think the biggest obstacle here isn't figuring out the price, it's the fact that Palladium would have to seriously raise their formatting and layout game. Some very small RPG publishers are putting out some very slick and glossy ebook versions of their product, and Palladium won't be doing itself any favours if it sticks to its traditional bland layout in a medium where printing costs are irrelevant.

[Killer Cyborg]

The fastest way to get Palladium to do Ebooks is to make it clear that there will be profit in it for them.
Paying full book price will do that.
Not much else will.

Charging full book price will doom the whole project though, since customers are used to paying less for ebooks than they do for print editions of the same title.

Which is why Kevin isn't too interested in ebooks. He has the same conclusion, that people couldn't get past their preconceptions that ebooks should be half price or so compared to a hard copy.

Although to be honest, I think the biggest obstacle here isn't figuring out the price, it's the fact that Palladium would have to seriously raise their formatting and layout game. Some very small RPG publishers are putting out some very slick and glossy ebook versions of their product, and Palladium won't be doing itself any favours if it sticks to its traditional bland layout in a medium where printing costs are irrelevant.

Fair point there.
And in order to raise their game, they'd need to pay for new talent, which would further lower their profit...

[Tiree]

The fastest way to get Palladium to do Ebooks is to make it clear that there will be profit in it for them.
Paying full book price will do that.
Not much else will.

Charging full book price will doom the whole project though, since customers are used to paying less for ebooks than they do for print editions of the same title.

Which is why Kevin isn't too interested in ebooks. He has the same conclusion, that people couldn't get past their preconceptions that ebooks should be half price or so compared to a hard copy.

The way to solve this dilemma is to make the e-books about 2/3 the cost of the print book. Then double the e-book version for the print book.

It would mean he wouldn't have the lowest priced physical books any more (Somewhat a huge selling point I guess?). And it would let folks have what they want.

Although to be honest, I think the biggest obstacle here isn't figuring out the price, it's the fact that Palladium would have to seriously raise their formatting and layout game. Some very small RPG publishers are putting out some very slick and glossy ebook versions of their product, and Palladium won't be doing itself any favours if it sticks to its traditional bland layout in a medium where printing costs are irrelevant.

Fair point there.
And in order to raise their game, they'd need to pay for new talent, which would further lower their profit...

Palladium has the talent. It would just slow down their production.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sorry, I don't buy the excuse that Palladium pays their artists so ungodly amount of money above and beyond the rest of the RPG Industry that they can't put out Ebooks due to how much those artists are getting paid. The other RPG's have no problem what so ever producing eBooks and many of them have full color art. Palladium's are B&W. Don't get me wrong. Some of their artists are great. Chuck is an -amazing- artist. I love his work. I wish Kevin hadn't bought the GunWolf Print. I'd have bought and framed it and put it on my wall. I like the majority of Mumah's work. I love a hand full of Palladium's artists work. That said they're not tooling around in Maserati's that they bought with their "Palladium Commission Money". The black and white artwork that goes into Palladium's books is not astronomically better than the full color work you see out of other companies. Some Palladium artists draw for other companies. I know one does work for Shadowrun too. Again this isn't taking away from Palladium's Artists at all. I -very much- like some of their work. I'm just saying, 'blaming' the 'high cost of the art' as a reason why Ebooks are not viable is absurd.

It's not like the company pays them twice. Once the art goes into the dead tree format, it's bought and paid for. It's not like they have to pay the artists again to put them in an ebook. lol It's already been paid for. Any of 20 instances of art being reused over multiple books bares that out as well. How many times have we seen that arm with the wolverine claws? lol. Any PDF's that Palladium produces will be digital copies of physical books that they've already 'made'. Thus the 'art' in the book will be paid for when the dead tree format is produced.

The "Art costs a lot of money" 'Reason' is a dodge.

[jaymz]

And is less relevant if they go the way I think they should with dead tree followed by pdf 6 months later.

In the mean time that also does not explain why they don't do the books that are 20 years old and yet not available on PDF. THAT art was bought and paid for 20 years ago. That does not explain why they can't/won't/don't do those in PDF.

If they don't want to actually do so, I'd rather them just bloody well say so instead of randomly posting things about how they are thinking about it still. There is nothing to think about. The horses already got out the side door. No point keeping the front one locked up not to mention their main competition, some of which are no bigger than Palladium is, does it and gets money from it.

Right now no PDFs = no money.

Sell PDFs = money they do not presently get which is more than the no money they presently get.

Using the cost of the book's production is asinine. There is an author here, and I know others that have backed this up, that making the PDF is not some monumental week long process if done during the books electronic layout. The time is not some herculean mass of effort to do and get done. I've done basic ones myself. Took me 5 hours hours total to scan the book manually, convert it to PDF and the OCR it for text searches. Since they do the books digitally that would knock out 4 hours (that's how long it took me to manually scan every single page at good resolutions, clean it up a bit, and square it before saving the scan). The most time would be adding the bookmarks. Basically one good day after the book is digitally laid out and the PDF should be done.

Put out the dead tree, get all the main dead tree sales you will get, hell wait 12 months to go bu a grab bag season, then release a PDF because if you think you will are going to have major dead tree sales after a year then bully for you but it ain't going to happen. At least going forward, as has been pointed out, you wont lose out on sales because you are out of stock. Ever.

[Rallan]

And is less relevant if they go the way I think they should with dead tree followed by pdf 6 months later.

I really don't see what a delay is going to accomplish. People who want a hard copy of the book are going to shell out the slightly higher price and buy it, regardless of whether or not an ebook alternative is also available. And people who'd prefer to just buy it as an ebook (either to save money or because they find it more convenient to keep their gaming library on their laptop or whatever) aren't going to rush out and buy a hard copy that they don't want just because it's the only format that's available at the time.

In the mean time that also does not explain why they don't do the books that are 20 years old and yet not available on PDF. THAT art was bought and paid for 20 years ago. That does not explain why they can't/won't/don't do those in PDF.

Oh that's easily explained. They haven't made pdf versions of their back catalog available because piracy (don't ask how that's supposed to work). Which is why the only old books they're selling pdf versions of are discontinued titles and old editions that they were never going to print and sell more physical copies of.

[Marcus]

Everytime I read about pdfs not being profitable, I wonder how every other company is able to afford making them.
And I don't want to even think about companies like Cubicle 7 who give the pdf free to a dead tree Version.
Or how Posthuman Studios isn't bankrupt yet...

[Killer Cyborg]

And is less relevant if they go the way I think they should with dead tree followed by pdf 6 months later.

I really don't see what a delay is going to accomplish. People who want a hard copy of the book are going to shell out the slightly higher price and buy it, regardless of whether or not an ebook alternative is also available. And people who'd prefer to just buy it as an ebook (either to save money or because they find it more convenient to keep their gaming library on their laptop or whatever) aren't going to rush out and buy a hard copy that they don't want just because it's the only format that's available at the time.

In the mean time that also does not explain why they don't do the books that are 20 years old and yet not available on PDF. THAT art was bought and paid for 20 years ago. That does not explain why they can't/won't/don't do those in PDF.

Oh that's easily explained. They haven't made pdf versions of their back catalog available because piracy (don't ask how that's supposed to work). Which is why the only old books they're selling pdf versions of are discontinued titles and old editions that they were never going to print and sell more physical copies of.

I'd say "because time, effort, and attention."

[Josh Hilden]

Okay, if we're talking about books not done digitally and needing to be unbound and scanned I understand the lack of time to make the investment of effort. But for all of the ones done digitally... yeah it's a simple conversion process and a minimum of time to make the needed adjustments for full function PDF. You've already done 95% of the work setting the files up for print.

But it's not my company and I have NO insight to the current behind the scenes reasoning. Just giving my views as a publisher who does this every day for a living.

[jaymz]

Josh - even if they aren't already digitally done...one good day. One good day is all it would take to get one done, two done if they are smaller. But as you say, it isn't our company, none of our business if they don't want to get at least SOME money for PDF's even if they are getting no money for them now.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you want Palladium to spend one good day on a new project, I'd suggest that you rally the disgruntled to focus on THAT instead of complaining how late everything else already is.
It seems rather contradictory for people to be upset by both Palladium's intentions constantly exceeding their capabilities AND by Palladium not adding more stuff to their plate.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If palladium DID spend one day to produce one PDF, many of us who complain about how late everything is, would give them a pass. Most especially if every Friday there was an update with 5 new PDF titles up to buy on DriveTru.

More over, it's not like it'd take the entire staff that one day to do it. There's not going to be 6 people fluttering around a room making the PDF. It'd be one guy or gal sitting at a computer while the rest go about their work doing what ever they were doing that day.

Still, yeah, 5 new PDF titles a week, would go a --long-- way. Less people would complain and those that did, could be pointed to the PDFs. "Hey man. Yeah they're late but over the past month they've put up 20 new PDFs that we've been clamoring for for years. Take a chill pill."

[jaymz]

Hell I'd be thrilled if they took one day a week to do A PDF. One new PDF a week. If that is enough to put them even MORE behind schedule when the person that is the cause of the schedule slow downs isn't going to be the one working ont he PDFs then they have even bigger problems than any of us know.

Wayne is the tech guy as far as anyone can tell. One day a week he does a PDF while Alex does whatever Alex does, Kevin works his hours on end "editing" and Julius does his usual warehouse stuff. Not sure how that will put ANY production further behind schedule but hey maybe Wayne and Alex are integral to Kevin "editing" by having to wait for enough pages to proofread *shrugs*

I'll gladly try to corner Wayne next may to try and get a straight answer out of him. I'm not known for being shy that's for damned sure. And why Wayne? because I honestly do not think I;d get an informed or straight answer out of Kevin, that's why.

[Rallan]

I'd say "because time, effort, and attention."

Nah, they were willing to put in the time (if not the effort and attention) to make pdfs of obsolete older editions of their stuff. Either they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would cut into sales of the dead tree editions, or they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would facilitate piracy.

Either way, it's highly unusual thinking in this day and age.

[jaymz]

I'd say "because time, effort, and attention."

Nah, they were willing to put in the time (if not the effort and attention) to make pdfs of obsolete older editions of their stuff. Either they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would cut into sales of the dead tree editions, or they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would facilitate piracy.

Either way, it's highly unusual thinking in this day and age.

Or you know, someone gave them the not so good versions that were already being pirated so they could sell them without much effort at all....

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say "because time, effort, and attention."

Nah, they were willing to put in the time (if not the effort and attention) to make pdfs of obsolete older editions of their stuff. Either they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would cut into sales of the dead tree editions, or they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would facilitate piracy.

Either way, it's highly unusual thinking in this day and age.

They did put in the time... and got precious little thanks, and quite a few complaints.

I agree that avoiding ebooks/pdfs is a bad idea.
Which is why I've pointed out the only real way to get them to do that idea: be willing to pay full price (or very close to it).
And which is why I've pointed out the illogic of simultaneously demanding that they take on the project of making electronic books AND constantly berating them for biting off more than they can chew.

As I've said before, if we the customers/fans could pick an idea--any ONE idea--and focus on that, we might be able to get Palladium to implement that idea in some fashion.
But there are too many people complaining about everything that Palladium does (or that they don't do), so complaints in general have long since become a kind of white noise in Palladium's ears.
Too much noise, not enough signal.

[jaymz]

I don't know, I don't usually berate them for biting off more than they can chew but more for knowing what they can chew and saying no no no I can chew more Not QUITE the same.

[Rallan]

I'd say "because time, effort, and attention."

Nah, they were willing to put in the time (if not the effort and attention) to make pdfs of obsolete older editions of their stuff. Either they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would cut into sales of the dead tree editions, or they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would facilitate piracy.

Either way, it's highly unusual thinking in this day and age.

They did put in the time... and got precious little thanks, and quite a few complaints.

I agree that avoiding ebooks/pdfs is a bad idea.
Which is why I've pointed out the only real way to get them to do that idea: be willing to pay full price (or very close to it).
And which is why I've pointed out the illogic of simultaneously demanding that they take on the project of making electronic books AND constantly berating them for biting off more than they can chew.

As I've said before, if we the customers/fans could pick an idea--any ONE idea--and focus on that, we might be able to get Palladium to implement that idea in some fashion.
But there are too many people complaining about everything that Palladium does (or that they don't do), so complaints in general have long since become a kind of white noise in Palladium's ears.
Too much noise, not enough signal.

So if Palladium is missing out on a business opportunity that's virtually become the industry standard for the RPG biz, it's the customers' fault for not offering to pay more than they ought to for a product most other companies sell at competitive discounts? That's... I dunno what to make of that. That's some pretty bizarre logic.

Also, Palladium Books has nobody but themselves to blame for biting off more than they can chew. Their inability to put out meet deadlines, get projects done on time, and put out realistic release schedules is nobody's fault but their own, and I don't see what customer attitudes toward that problem have got to do with ebooks.

But hey, let's just throw logic to the wind and conflate the two issues for a moment because why the hell not. Palladium could do ebooks and stop complaints about tardy release dates and nonexistent new books with two very simple steps:
1) Make some ebooks.
2) Factor in the extremely small increase in workload caused by making ebooks when they make realistic announcements instead of promising a dozen or twenty new titles a year.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say "because time, effort, and attention."

Nah, they were willing to put in the time (if not the effort and attention) to make pdfs of obsolete older editions of their stuff. Either they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would cut into sales of the dead tree editions, or they were worried that pdfs of currently stocked items would facilitate piracy.

Either way, it's highly unusual thinking in this day and age.

They did put in the time... and got precious little thanks, and quite a few complaints.

I agree that avoiding ebooks/pdfs is a bad idea.
Which is why I've pointed out the only real way to get them to do that idea: be willing to pay full price (or very close to it).
And which is why I've pointed out the illogic of simultaneously demanding that they take on the project of making electronic books AND constantly berating them for biting off more than they can chew.

As I've said before, if we the customers/fans could pick an idea--any ONE idea--and focus on that, we might be able to get Palladium to implement that idea in some fashion.
But there are too many people complaining about everything that Palladium does (or that they don't do), so complaints in general have long since become a kind of white noise in Palladium's ears.
Too much noise, not enough signal.

So if Palladium is missing out on a business opportunity that's virtually become the industry standard for the RPG biz, it's the customers' fault for not offering to pay more than they ought to for a product most other companies sell at competitive discounts? That's... I dunno what to make of that. That's some pretty bizarre logic.

The customer wants something.
The company does not.
The burden for action is on those who want, not those who are satisfied with things as they are.

Also, Palladium Books has nobody but themselves to blame for biting off more than they can chew. Their inability to put out meet deadlines, get projects done on time, and put out realistic release schedules is nobody's fault but their own, and I don't see what customer attitudes toward that problem have got to do with ebooks.

You don't see any connection between the constant complaining that Palladium is behind schedule, and the push for them to do things not on their schedule?

But hey, let's just throw logic to the wind and conflate the two issues for a moment because why the hell not. Palladium could do ebooks and stop complaints about tardy release dates and nonexistent new books with two very simple steps:
1) Make some ebooks.
2) Factor in the extremely small increase in workload caused by making ebooks when they make realistic announcements instead of promising a dozen or twenty new titles a year.

Step 1 wouldn't happen without step 2, and at this point only a fool or a newbie would believe that Palladium was capable of doing the italicizes portion of 2.
For whatever reason, it's clearly not in their nature.
In an ideal world, Palladium would've have that particular quirk/insanity, but in THIS word, it's just as mad to expect or demand that they change it.

Unless one was to organize the complainers, and to focus on the over-promising and chronic tardiness as THE thing that needs to be changed, perhaps.
But to do that, people would have to keep consistent I their complaints, and I don't imagine that happening any time soon.

[Rimmer]

For me this is a moot point, i have a pdf version of my entire palladium library.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the thing about that, is that if you didn't create them yourself, from your own physical copies (Which 'can' be done), is to admit you're downloaded illegal copies. Which is a big no-no.

[Rimmer]

Not quite, owning copies of something you already own is legal, it doesn't actually matter where those copies came from. Country may vary

[Kagashi]

Finally, every time this subject comes up I ask the same question of people they same question. How much should an e-book from PB cost that would keep people from stealing it? Most of the answers I have gotten are so low PB would be gone in a matter of weeks.

Bull.

A guy I was chatting with at a convention snagged almost every book they've ever made in a single torrent earlier this year, because he didn't want to pay for all the Robotech books (the matter came up while discussing the kickstarter).

The books are already available digitally if one is willing to hunt for them, and it hasn't killed or crippled PB yet.

By this argument, Steam selling games at a 20-80% discount during sales should be shuttering studios left and right, and yet as noted above, *profits* reportedly go up during said sales. Many studios actively look forward to participating in said events, because of how lucrative they can be.

Ebooks haven't *killed* retail book stores (though the competition may cause things to get ugly in time, that remains to be seen), Steam and Origin and GOG haven't *killed* retail game sales, you are arguing that somehow Palladium is so unique or different that their fanbase would never buy another book again just because something that is already available illegally became legally available at a reasonable price.

Shenanigans.

Agreed. The PDFs already exist and are being distributed as we speak. There is nothing stopping me from acquiring every Palladium Book out there now except my sense of integrity and morality. You know how much Palladium earns from this piracy? Nothing. If they produced PDFs of their own (making them searchable, good scans,and hyperlinked) and sold them for 80% of the book price, they would be making *SOMETHING*. Perhaps if you are provided a code during the purchase of the physical book, you can get the PDF for only 25% for those who want both physical books and PDFs (think digital copies of movies when you buy the blurays or DVDs of new releases). It can only increase dollars in their pockets...dollars they are not getting currently.

Look, immoral people are going to be immoral no matter what. You cannot look at piracy as a factor in this decision. They are doing it anyway. You have to look at the people asking for legal copies of new releases. Being afraid of piracy concerning making official PDFs or not is like putting up "no guns" signs at schools when active shooters are going to bring a gun anyway.

Using Drivethru as a template is not good either. Drivethru only offers crap that is out of print and obsolete. Who cares about stuff that is out of print? Provide current titles, and you'll see a difference.

[Jason Richards]

DISCLAIMER: I am literally making this up as I write it. This does not represent any current project or proposal in the works.


What if, and I'm just spitballing here, one of the more minor games (Chaos Earth, Systems Failure, After the Bomb... maybe Splicers?) were to go PDF-only? Like the digital exclusive comics offered by Marvel and DC? How would that strike you?

What this would look like, I think:

1. Core RPG cut as a native PDF file (meaning a new layout and source file creation). Format of the book would probably remain the same, though I think you could argue for making it a smaller format and single-column text to idealize for tablets and e-readers. But, for the sake of simplicity, say it's the same as the normal-sized book.

2. During update of core RPG, any errata and updates would be incorporated. Some superfluous material MIGHT be cut out to make it as lean as possible. Any removed material flows into #3...

3. All source material comes in micro-supplements. This might be a single OCC or a few related OCCs, or a group of 3 or 4 related monsters, or some new tech. The setting becomes a cafeteria, where gamers use micro-transactions (maybe even "pay what you want") to pick and choose the elements that they want for their game. Because they're small, new supplements could be offered very frequently.

4. Every so often, maybe at Gen Con or at the POH or wherever, all of the material gets collected into limited-print hard copies.

5. All distribution through DriveThruRPG.

What does that do for you?

[Tiree]

What does that do for you?

It would make me happy.

What would make me extremely happy, is to have a Freelancer or even someone other than KS. Be a "Line" Developer for one of these smaller lines.

[ffranceschi]

What does that do for you?

It would make me happy.

What would make me extremely happy, is to have a Freelancer or even someone other than KS. Be a "Line" Developer for one of these smaller lines.

Same here

[TagsPB]

Just keep in mind....updates like that could mean NO versions.....it would all be one......the current.

Unless you get the printed ones

[Kagashi]

What does that do for you?

I would be interested in that. Might be a nice little proof of concept for Palladium to see how the new world works.

To be clear through, I value books as well as PDFs for various reasons. So I would not want to see this become a template for Palladium to move exclusively to PDFs.

Furthermore, Id want to eventually get my hands on that hard copy and not have to go to a social convention of 100,000 people to get it. Think about it, introverts want products and not be near people to get it (pdfs, online sales rooms for physical books). So, release the book at Whatever-Con but sell it to distributors and online as you normally would.

What would make me extremely happy, is to have a Freelancer or even someone other than KS. Be a "Line" Developer for one of these smaller lines.

Agreed. Id sorta feel guilty, but happy...the same way I felt when Disney was going to produce Star Wars 7 w/o Lucas having a part in it.

Just keep in mind....updates like that could mean NO versions.....it would all be one......the current.

Unless you get the printed ones

Hardly. It would be Systems Failure World Book 1.1. That new OCC comes out, you combine the files, it becomes WB 1.2.

I envision the DriveThru menu to look something like this:

World Book 1: $15.00
World Book 1, OCC Bundle Supplement (Stand Alone): $2.00 [4 new survivor OCCs!]
World Book 1.1 Upgrade (requires previous purchase of WB1 from DriveThru): $2.00 [Includes Core book and OCC Bundle Supplement]
World Book 1.1: $17.00

[palladiumjunkie]

The physical copy issue with Jason's idea could easily be covered by just offering print on demand as an option. Drivethru RPG handles that as well.

-Chris

[Jason Richards]

The physical copy issue with Jason's idea could easily be covered by just offering print on demand as an option. Drivethru RPG handles that as well.

-Chris

Yes but only issue with that is repetitive work and quality control. You want a book to lay out a certain way. And pod requires 4 page increments or you get blank pages. Minor issues but could deter.